CLASSIC: The People vs. Lenny Bruce: Ridiculous Stand-up Stories with Wayne Federman

Summary

Ridiculous History: CLASSIC Episode Summary Episode Title: The People vs. Lenny Bruce: Ridiculous Stand-up Stories with Wayne Federman
Release Date: July 26, 2025

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Introduction

In this classic episode of Ridiculous History, hosts Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown delve into the tumultuous and groundbreaking career of Lenny Bruce, one of stand-up comedy's most influential and controversial figures. Joined by special guest Wayne Federman, a seasoned actor and stand-up comedian, the conversation explores the intersection of comedy, free speech, and societal norms.

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Guest Introduction: Wayne Federman

Wayne Federman brings a wealth of knowledge to the discussion, not only as a familiar face from shows like Curb Your Enthusiasm but also as a professor at the University of Southern California. Federman teaches the history of stand-up comedy and hosts his own podcast, History of Stand Up, offering him deep insights into the evolution of the art form.

Notable Quote:

Wayne Federman: "Comedians are like truth tellers on the vanguard of social change." ([05:00])

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Evolution of Stand-Up Comedy

The conversation begins with an overview of how stand-up comedy has evolved from its roots in vaudeville and burlesque. Federman explains the transition from family-friendly vaudeville acts to the more edgy and provocative performances that characterized modern stand-up.

Key Points:

• Vaudeville Era: Initially, stand-up was part of a larger variety show format, often requiring minimal props and relying heavily on the comedian’s verbal skills.
• Burlesque Influence: Concurrent with vaudeville, burlesque introduced more adult-oriented humor, paving the way for comedians like Lenny Bruce to push boundaries.
• Nightclub Era: The introduction of microphones and alcohol further transformed stand-up into a solo performance art that could directly engage and provoke audiences.

Notable Quote:

Wayne Federman: "Vaudeville was family entertainment, but comedians like Lenny Bruce redefined it as a platform for social commentary." ([12:47])

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Lenny Bruce: A Revolutionary Comedian

Lenny Bruce is portrayed as a pioneer who used comedy to challenge societal norms and push the limits of free speech. Federman outlines Bruce’s early struggles, including his time performing in strip clubs and attempting to break into Hollywood through short films and scripted performances, all while battling personal demons.

Key Points:

• Early Career: Bruce's beginnings in talent shows and Broadway, leading to performances in less reputable venues like burlesque clubs.
• Artistic Evolution: Influenced by Mort Saul and his unique "jazz talking jive" style, Bruce began incorporating more critical and introspective material into his act.
• Controversial Material: His bit "Religion Incorporated" led to multiple arrests for violating Penal Code 1140 A, which targeted "obscene, indecent, immoral, and impure" performances.
• Legal Battles: Bruce's confrontations with law enforcement highlighted the oppressive nature of community standards and censorship during the era.

Notable Quote:

Noel Brown: "Lenny Bruce boldly went against the grain, not caring about the legal repercussions he faced." ([40:14])

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Societal Standards and Censorship

The episode delves into the legal framework that impeded comedians like Lenny Bruce, focusing on Penal Code 1140 A. Federman explains how vague language like "the corruption of the morals of youth" was used to justify censorship, often influenced by groups like the Catholic League.

Key Points:

• Penal Code 1140 A: Broad and vague, it allowed authorities to shut down performances deemed immoral without clear guidelines.
• Community Standards: Local boards, often influenced by religious groups, had significant control over what was permissible in entertainment.
• Impact on Free Speech: These laws stifled creative expression and were a direct obstacle to comedians who sought to challenge societal norms.

Notable Quote:

Wayne Federman: "The Penal Code was a legal smokescreen for shutting down any performance that didn’t align with conservative community standards." ([36:34])

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Legacy of Lenny Bruce

Lenny Bruce's relentless pursuit of artistic freedom and his battles against censorship left an indelible mark on comedy and free speech in America. His efforts paved the way for future comedians to explore more controversial and meaningful topics without fear of legal repercussions.

Key Points:

• Cultural Impact: Bruce is often credited with elevating stand-up comedy to a form of social and political commentary.
• Legal Precedents: His court cases brought national attention to issues of free speech and artistic expression.
• Enduring Influence: Bruce’s legacy continues to influence comedians who use humor as a tool for societal critique.

Notable Quote:

Noel Brown: "Lenny Bruce wasn’t just performing jokes; he was challenging the very fabric of societal norms and legal boundaries." ([41:40])

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Conclusion and Teaser for Part Two

The episode concludes with a reflection on the cyclical nature of moral panics and censorship, drawing parallels between Lenny Bruce's era and modern-day controversies in comedy and other art forms. Hosts Ben and Noel express their anticipation for the second part of this two-part series, which will explore another iconic comedian, George Carlin, and his legal battles that reached the Supreme Court.

Notable Quote:

Ben Bowlin: "We are making progress, but it's a hard-won road, and Lenny Bruce was a significant milestone in that journey." ([40:31])

---

Supporting Characters and Acknowledgments

Throughout the episode, thanks are extended to producer Paul Decken, guest producer Casey Pegram, and research associates Alex Williams, Eve Jeffcoat, and Christopher Haciotes. The team also acknowledges Wayne Federman for his invaluable contributions to the discussion.

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Final Thoughts

This in-depth exploration of Lenny Bruce's career and his impact on stand-up comedy offers listeners a nuanced understanding of how one man's fight against censorship reshaped the landscape of American humor. With Wayne Federman's expert insights, Ridiculous History provides both entertainment and education, highlighting the often overlooked struggles behind the laughter.

---

For those interested in the continuation of this story, be sure to tune in to part two, where George Carlin's legendary stand-up battles are explored in detail.

Transcript

[Ben]

Fellow ridiculous historians, welcome to this week's classic episode. Now we, we want to let you know at the top, this is an interview. It's a very exciting one for us and we had a lot of fun with a friend of the show here. There is also some strong language. So yeah, there was no way to.

[Noel]

Get around it, y'.

[Paul]

All.

[Noel]

It's, it's some F's and Jeffs in this one with our buddy Wayne Fetterman, who you may know from Curb youb Enthusiasm from Stand Up. He's just a longtime fixture in the LA comedy scene and a really cool dud. Believe he also teaches the history of standup comedy at the time he did at a university of some stripe there in the Las.

[Ben]

You were saying he is a legitimate walking encyclopedia of standup comedy history and one of the people that he really connects with and a story that he has examined in thorough depth is the story of the legendary standup Lenny Bruce.

[Noel]

Lenny Bruce, very famous censorship case, indecency case, excellent film starring what's his name, Dustin Hoffman called Lenny by Bob Fosse that I highly recommend. And we get into all of that and the sad and tragic tale of Lenny Bruce who was a really funny guy with some really not funny demons.

[Ben]

And this is part one of a two part series with Wayne Fetterman. So tune in for our next classic. In the same vein about George Carlin.

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[Ben]

Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Before we get started folks, it's important to know that this episode contains some strong and explicit language that may not be suitable for all the listeners. So if you got your kiddos in the crowd, this might not be the episode for them. Thought about censoring it, but we decided we couldn't. Not in good faith, because this episode is fundamentally about free speech and language. We hope you enjoy. And one additional note, we had a little bit of technical difficulty at the beginning of this episode, this first part of our two part series. Due to this technical difficulty, Noel's mic is actually not on for the duration of the first episode or for most of it however, we believe that this interview was important enough and enjoyable enough and fantastic enough that we wanted to salvage it and play it out in full.

[Noel]

And hopefully I didn't say too much.

[Ben]

Welcome to the show, Ridiculous Historians. We have something very special for you today. Now, we get our Yucks and we get our guffaws and our chuckles occasionally, wouldn't you say, Noel? The Yucks and the Chucks, that's how we refer to them. But we have rarely talked about the profound depth of story in the evolution of comedy. And comedy is commentary, right? No. Like way, way back in the day in Western Europe, even the Jester was the only person sometimes who could speak the truth to the king.

[Noel]

Well, sure. I mean, it's a profession of truth telling. Ben, which is your name? Oh, that's right. And it's evolved over time and it's become an important source of satire and social commentary. And it's these comedians that are able to say things that are needed to help society, like, move forward and to help change laws and change perspectives. And that is no exception for the two incredible comics we're talking about today. But we're not doing it alone, are we?

[Ben]

Right. That's right, Noel. We are joined, of course, as always, with our super producer. We've got Paul Decken filling in for Casey Pegram today. Make sure you knock out those sound cues, Paul. But we did not come alone into this fray of comics versus the law. We came with an expert. We would like to introduce you fellow ridiculous historians to the man, the myth, the legend, Wayne Fetterman.

[Wayne Fetterman]

Thank you. Thank you for calling me a myth.

[Noel]

What does it mean to be a myth? Does that mean you don't exist?

[Wayne Fetterman]

That means I don't exist.

[Noel]

Clearly, if you've watched television over the last several.

[Ben]

Ever.

[Wayne Fetterman]

Yeah.

[Noel]

I mean, you have seen this man and everything from the X Files. I saw you in an episode of Baywatch, which was very impressive to me.

[Ben]

Curb youb Enthusiasm.

[Noel]

You are Dean Weinstock and Curb youb Enthusiasm. And you basically extorted Larry David for a meeting with Julia Louis Dreyfus so that he would have a wire removed from his backyard. And then the meeting didn't go well and you refuse to have the wire removed. What is your deal?

[Ben]

What was that line? What was that line? In that. In that one, we say. You call that a meeting. I call that one of the most horrible.

[Wayne Fetterman]

Just a horrible moment in my life.

[Ben]

Yes, that was. That was amazing.

[Wayne Fetterman]

Also, just before we continue with my credits, because that's going to be the best part of this show, you know, none of those lines are written. So every. It's just. You have the bullet points of what's supposed to happen in that scene, and we do it and we do it, and then we'll do it a few times, and then Larry will go more of that, less of that, more of this. That's funny. And so every line you hear me say on that show is something I wrote at the moment that's even more impressive.

[Noel]

That's incredible. And I have to ask, just to peek behind the curtain, is it a pedantic number of takes or is it pretty chill? Is it pretty much like, eh, let's do it a couple more times. Let's do it one more time. It seems like Larry would be more laid back like that.

[Ben]

Be a little more like a brief emotional direction or something. What's the scoop?

[Wayne Fetterman]

Well, that's a good question for. That was. I mean, this was early on. That's like the sixth episode of the show. So they were still kind of figuring out their technique at that point. And a guy named Larry Charles was directing it, but just basically Larry David. Like, yeah, that's. That's close enough. Let's go on to the next thing. Like, it wasn't. It wasn't like, oh, this moment has to be perfect. And so, yeah, so it wasn't a lot of takes. Although I will say this, and this is going to sound like I'm bragging, but I'm not. It's just that Larry sometimes gets, like, these giggle fits. And so the next time I did the show where I had to hug him and he breaks my glasses and I'm like, no problem, I'll just send you an invoice.

[Noel]

That's right.

[Wayne Fetterman]

He kept laughing every time because I'm so sincere in my. Like, I'm the nice guy who's a horrible guy is sort of. Was the angle of that dude that he just kept laughing, laughing, laughing to the point where he had to apologize to the crew for pushing the shoot back.

[Ben]

So that's great.

[Noel]

I mean, oh, my God. I just want to say, I wish Larry David was my dad. I've said that many times. I don't know why. I didn't have a very good relationship with my dad. So maybe that's being informed by that. But Larry David just strikes me as, like, the perfect curmudgeon. But he also seems like he'd be pretty cool to work with and pretty easy to get along with, despite his character.

[Wayne Fetterman]

So you want a dad who's multimillionaire Yeah, I get it.

[Noel]

And just makes great observations.

[Ben]

You know what, Noel? I agree. I would love it if he were your dad, because then I could just come over, but it wouldn't have to be a forever thing. I could leave. But let us continue just a little bit. Wayne, with some more of these credentials, some people may not know that you are a professor at the University of Southern California, correct?

[Wayne Fetterman]

That is correct. I am officially. I mean, I'm a professor. That's the right word. But I'm an adjunct professor. Do you know what that means?

[Ben]

Does that mean not tenured?

[Noel]

Does that mean you don't have an office?

[Wayne Fetterman]

All of those things are correct. Whatever you think it means, it basically means not a real professor is what it means. It means I don't have like a master's or a PhD or something like that.

[Noel]

Are you teaching the history of stand up? Is that your specialty?

[Wayne Fetterman]

Both the history of stand up and a performance class combined? Yes. And it's advanced. It's. You have to take another stand up class, even to get to Professor Fetterman.

[Ben]

Yeah. So if we were to enroll, we would have to start. Start at level one.

[Noel]

You got prereqs. You have prereqs.

[Wayne Fetterman]

I have prereqs.

[Noel]

And not only do you teach these classes, you also have a brand new podcast on the podglomerate network that's called the History of Stand Up. Which, surprise, surprise, is about the history of stand up.

[Wayne Fetterman]

Yeah, it's not a. It's not a misdirect. It's not like, oh, my God, we're just going to be talking about, you know, youth culture and Monrovia. That's how good I am at ad libbing. I can't quite get a word out.

[Noel]

But you never know. We're gonna tap some of your knowledge on the subject today for this episode.

[Wayne Fetterman]

Of course. That's why I'm here.

[Ben]

Before we continue, I do want to say I specifically enjoyed the episode on the rise of standup, or what we perceive as modern standup through the vaudeville era.

[Wayne Fetterman]

Oh, thank you.

[Ben]

Yeah, thank you. I learned a lot. I'm gonna be insufferable at parties for the next few weeks.

[Noel]

Well, do you wanna set the stage a little bit with just like. I think the comics we're talking about today obviously benefited from. And you mentioned at the top of the show, Ben, the idea of stand up as truth telling and this notion of the vaudeville. What is it called?

[Ben]

The performance of one performance in one.

[Noel]

In one. Will you talk a little bit about that, Wayne? Like just this concept.

[Wayne Fetterman]

Absolutely, absolutely. It's just so, you know, I know you. You hold these comedians up as these truth tellers and on the vanguard of social change. And there is an element of comedy that is that there's also a whole nother sea, a whole ocean of comedy that isn't that. That's just making people laugh. And in a way, that's a wonderful experience.

[Ben]

Agreed.

[Wayne Fetterman]

So, yeah, so I just. I know you. I feel like comedians sometimes get elevated as these truth tellers. It's like they're really just trying to get people to laugh. Is there. Is their main goal? Is their main goal. So, no, if we go back to vaudeville, it's interesting. You should. You picked up on that episode because we talk about this guy, Frank Fay, that a lot of people look to is the. The architect of the modern, what we consider the modern stand up. It's kind of like a wise guy, a smart guy in a suit who does, you know, no baggy pants, no weird hats, doesn't, you know, crazy big tie or anything like that that screams, hey, I'm a comedian. You know, just a sharp talking guy. And from that, this guy's name is Frank Fay. And another time, we should do an episode, you guys should do one on Frank Fay because he's a really interesting guy because he not only creates this, but is this. He's sort of anti Semitic and he's. He supports the Nazis and it's just a crazy dude. He's very insufferable man. And it's just like that. This guy. I love that. In fact, this is the guy that sort of started the whole thing. It's perfect. It's perfect. So anyway, vaudeville was family entertainment. And the height of vaudeville, like what today would be getting a Netflix special, was to perform at a theater in New York called the palace, which was right off Broadway in 44. Or. No, no, it's a little higher than 48. And so that was like the goal of every comedian. And Frank Fay was the emcee at the Palace. They used to not even have emcees. They used to just put up a placard or like a big card and say, this is, you know, Fink's Mules. And then this act would come out and they'd do it. So he would like, in between the acts, he'd like kibitz with the crowd. And eventually that became his act. And by performing in one, usually there was a curtain. And so in one was the very front of the stage. That meant there was. You didn't need Anything behind you. So a lot of times comedians were needed because they would be setting up and acrobatic act or a contortionist act behind the curtain while the standup was just doing his shtick. So that was called being in one. And now it means sort of like you are alone out there. It's a literal and figurative statement if I'm not mistaken.

[Ben]

So that makes sense though from the behind the scenes perspective that you wouldn't want that dead air. Right. You would want the audience to have something to look at.

[Wayne Fetterman]

Yep, yep, exactly. You don't want a big deep stage behind you when all you really need is just your voice. And then microphones sort of changed that a little bit, you know, and that was more the nightclub era. And that's when they added something called alcohol to the equation.

[Noel]

And is that, is that what we kind of move more from vaudeville into like burlesque where it becomes less of a family affair? Is that when the alcohol.

[Wayne Fetterman]

No, no. Burlesque ran, ran concurrent to vaudeville, which was like a lower class entertainment that was kind of looked down upon. And mainly men went to burlesque shows, not a lot women. And it was sort of like there might be a stripper or a, you know, a very, a fan dancer or something, you know, like that. And, and the comedians in burlesque were way more broad and because you had, you know, there was just guys there in the, you know, degenerates in the middle of the afternoon watching women. And then it was very hard to do very subtle kind of, you know, Jack Benny type humor to these guys. Yeah. So burlesque ran concurrent to vaudeville but was like considered a low form of entertainment.

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[Wayne Fetterman]

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[Ben]

And when we were originally talking, before doing this episode, we had asked you to share with our listeners some stories about what we would call notorious cases of comedians versus the law. And I'm setting this up now because when we. I believe you had said earlier in the history of stand up that the term stand up comic didn't really come about until the late 40s, maybe 1947 or so.

[Wayne Fetterman]

100% correct. Somebody is listening to my podcast. This is a miracle. I love it. I literally thought my podcast was made for, like, I don't know, 180 people who are interested in the history of this. So, yeah, they didn't have a term for, like, when Milton Berle was doing stand up. And we have a clip of Burl at the Winter Garden Theater doing, basically stand up jokes. You know, he does a joke about a restaurant that's so expensive they have three waiters for each table, one to give you the check and two to revive you. So, you know, just like a joke, just, you know, jokes. And he was doing that stuff before there was even the term stand up. So they called him either monologist or comics or something like that. But then eventually, like, bookers wanted to know what you were getting. Like, they would book a variety show and they would need a singer and, you know, maybe a juggler and then a comic, and they'd go, what kind of comic? Does he stand up? Does he need music? Does he. You know, and so it was a specific kind of comic who just used their voice.

[Ben]

I guess one of the big questions we have, like to Noel's exploration there of burlesque running concurrently with vaudeville but being considered a lower form of entertainment. Where did these stand up comics fit in? Were they controversial? Were they just something new and strange? Was it a slow evolution or a sudden one?

[Wayne Fetterman]

That's a good question. I think people always. I just think it's a human need to want to laugh, especially in a group of people. It's a very exciting, cathartic, you know, elevated moment, especially when you're all laughing at the same time. I don't know if you've ever seen a movie called Sullivan's Travels, but it's just a great movie about this Broadway producer who, like, gets burnt out on Hollywood and goes to see what, you know, what. It's pretends he's like a bum. And. And one of the great moments is him just watching these. These cartoons with a bunch of itinerant workers and they're all laughing together. It's like, oh, there's value in this. There's value. It's a beautiful movie. And I know that's a little sidetracked.

[Noel]

But my point, I haven't seen it. Sounds fantastic.

[Wayne Fetterman]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. It's like. Well, I don't know. Anyway, Joel McRae, Veronica Lake. I'm gonna name the whole cast, people no one's ever heard of. I'm gonna keep going. So it's. I don't know, I guess, you know, there's always been funny. Like you said earlier, there's court gestures and, you know, even, you know, early on in vaudeville, there was like funny comedian singer types, which is like an Eddie Cantor or something like that. And then they were just like, oh, people. Just like the comedy part. And so people specialized in that. And then that became very much more kind of like an opening act for like a singer. Like, I was just listening to, like, George Carlin would open for this singer named Oliver in the 60s, and Woody Allen opened for Barbra Streisand and then later for Jim Croce. So it was like a great way to sort of settle the crowd, get some laughs and then, you know, get the headliner up there. Unless it was a. And eventually the comics became the headliner.

[Noel]

Well, and it's also like kind of a self sufficient act, right? Like, you don't really need a whole lot of props or, you know, backline or like equipment or anything. It's just a person and their brain.

[Ben]

And their mouth and maybe a microphone.

[Noel]

And maybe a microphone.

[Wayne Fetterman]

So that 100%, that's why musicians, like, want to be comics. They're like, oh, I don't have to deal with this road crew guy and this dude setting up my guitar and not tuning it, right? And like, even to be in a band is a lot of stuff. Like we just get on an airplane or get in a car and go to the gig and then go back. It's. It is. I think it's the simplest, right? There's not really. I mean, I'm going to throw that out to you guys. Can you think of anything where you need to bring less physical attributes to the. To the act?

[Ben]

No, not really.

[Noel]

Maybe podcasting. I mean, they usually provide the mics for us too. We're actually doing our first tour next.

[Wayne Fetterman]

Week, so we'll report back and let.

[Noel]

You know how that goes.

[Ben]

But we do have heads.

[Wayne Fetterman]

Oh, you're going out on the road. I love it.

[Ben]

We're hitting the road, Wayne. Wish us luck.

[Noel]

But listen, let's get. Let's get to. Let's get to the.

[Ben]

Let's get to the headline.

[Wayne Fetterman]

Sorry, sorry. I'm full of knowledge.

[Noel]

I'm sorry, Professor Fetterman. Come on, let's take it easy. So we're talking about the term stand up not really coming around until the 40s, but around the 50s you got a guy named Lenny Bruce who comes onto the scene and he gets his start, you know, doing the same thing that a lot of comedians would do where he would be on, what was it, the Steve Allen Show, I believe he was on pretty early in his career.

[Wayne Fetterman]

Lenny Bruce is a fascinating story because he's, he's like this legend in a way because of what he did basically in like a four or five year period. And I'll explain it to you. He really, he, he was in the war in the 40s. His mom was in show business, she was kind of a comic. He does a talent show and he gets, you know, does a bunch of impressions and then he's on Broadway open house in 1950 and then he's not really on television at all. In for Most of the 50s he's basically, remember we're talking about burlesque and strip club. He was basically a comedian that worked in strip clubs was his thing and which was this brutal existence. But he was, you know, he fell in love with this stripper named Honey and he, you know, he just could kind of develop this act trying to entertain these guys and was just kicking around, couldn't get anything going. Tried to make these short films and wrote scripts in Hollywood and nothing couldn't get any traction really. And then finally that when Mort Saul came along and opened up Stand up to being a little more about commentary, which you guys mentioned earlier, this inspired Lenny Bruce and also there was a. He had sort of a. I don't know what's a muse is the word I would use. Named joannsis. This is famous comedy history who kind of developed Lenny Bruce's jazz talking jive style. I don't know if you've heard his records, but it's. Sometimes it's hard to even to connect with them because they, the language is like, you know, so obtuse at times.

[Frank Dell]

Ladies and gentlemen, the Palladium Theater body presents America's fastest rise young comedian and Dean of Satire, Mr. Frank Dell. Good evening ladies and gentlemen and certainly nice to be here at the most famous theater in the world, the wonderful Palladium Theater. Well folks, I just got back from Lost Wages, Nevada. Funny thing about working Lost wages folks, the way to make a lot of money there when you get off the plane, walk right into the propeller and then into the motel. Jokes, the army. Jokes, the impressions. 10, 12, 15 minutes and he's bombing nothing but not left one now he goes into the dying jokes. Oh well folks, I wasn't born here, but I'm short dying here. A lot of different ways to die and blah blah, blah. Now he starts with putting the audience down. Well, Freddy, Freddy boy. I see it's little Squaresville, real Squaresville for the first show. The greatest in them all. Oh crap, you're racing. Let's show business heaven. How about it maestro, eh? Walks off, gets a little courtesy applause.

[Wayne Fetterman]

Two people.

[Frank Dell]

Sounds like Citizen Kane. Terrible.

[Wayne Fetterman]

And again, this is, this is later in his career. This is not in the 51 or 50. He only started recording later and that recording is a perfect example of it. It was just this, you know, he would do bits but he had kind of a hey man style and he was very much, you know, into amphetamines and pot and you know he was, he had a relationship with, with drugs, let's, let's put it that way. Ultimately killed him. And then, then he put, you know, he puts out this album and that came out in 1959. And he was known for using dirty words and became what known as a sick comedian. There was a great article in Time magazine about these sick comedians who would do just like, like one of his jokes would be like the problem with my marriage was my mother in law because I slept with her too many times or something. Like, you know, just like weird, like people would be like what is, what is he? What did I hear? You know, that kind of thing. And so guess what? He starts making fun. One of his big bits is called Religion Incorporated and he starts doing this bit and you know, a lot of cops are Irish, you know, at that time. And so, and just you know, the DAs and stuff. So he gets arrested in San Francisco and then he becomes known as this comedian who's being censored and sort of that elevated him a little bit. And then he gets arrested in Chicago at the Gate of Horn and you know, believe it or not, George Carlin is at that show also gets arrested just because he won't show the cops his id. And Lanny Birch is like, why do they arrest you? Because I wouldn't show my ID because you're a schmuck. You know, that kind of thing.

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[John Lithgow]

Hello, I'm John Lithgow.

[Wayne Fetterman]

We choose to go to the moon.

[John Lithgow]

I want to tell you about my new fiction podcast, that's One Small Step for Man. It's about Buzz Aldrin, one of the true pioneers of space.

[Noel]

You're a great pilot, Buzz. As far as I'm concerned, the best I've seen.

[John Lithgow]

That's the story you think you know. This is the story you don't predisposition.

[Producer]

To depression, alcohol abuse and suicide.

[John Lithgow]

We'll see Buzz try to overcome demons.

[Frank Dell]

What do you say, Buzz?

[John Lithgow]

Another beer and triumph over addiction.

[Producer]

Here's to you, Buzz Aldrin.

[John Lithgow]

Good luck to you and become a true hero.

[Noel]

Buzz and I will proceed into the.

[John Lithgow]

Lunar module not because he conquers space, but because he conquers himself.

[Noel]

Buzz, we intercepted a Soviet radio transmission.

[John Lithgow]

Starring me, John Lithgow.

[Noel]

Can you put it through?

[John Lithgow]

Can you Translate on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts?

[Wayne Fetterman]

Columbia Ding Dong Las culturistas calling from YouTube. You heard that, right. Las Culturistas now has its own YouTube channel. Check out full episodes. Iconic interviews, visual bits and culture moments.

[Noel]

That'Ll change your life.

[Wayne Fetterman]

All in stunning hd. So don't wait. Be sure to watch las culturistas on [e-mail] lasculturistas Ding dong. Las culturistas calling from YouTube.

[Paul]

A murder happens. The case goes cold. Then over a hundred years later, we take a second look. I'm Paul Holes, a retired cold case investigator.

[Producer]

And I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a journalist and historian.

[Paul]

On our podcast Buried Bones, we re examined historical true crime cases using modern forensic techniques.

[Producer]

We dig into what the original investigators may have missed. Growing up on a farm, when I heard a gunshot, I did not immediately think murder.

[Paul]

Unless this person went out to shoot squirrels. They're not choosing a 22 to go hunting out there.

[Producer]

These cases may be Old, but the questions are still relevant and often chilling.

[Paul]

I know this chauffeur is not of concern. You know, it's like, well, he's the last one who saw her alive, so how did they eliminate him?

[Producer]

Join us as we take you back to the cold cases that haunt us to this day.

[Paul]

Do up episodes every Wednesday on the exactly right network. Listen to Buried bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Wayne Fetterman]

But the big case happened in New York at the Cafe Wawa, I think it's called.

[Noel]

Yeah. Because he's, like, fed up with these puritanical LA cops or Southern California cops, which is.

[Wayne Fetterman]

Right. So he thinks New York is going to be way more progressive.

[Ben]

And that's in Greenwich Village, right?

[Wayne Fetterman]

Yes, yes. This is the. The scene. You know, Ginsburg's there and Dylan is there, and it's like, it's, you know, it's very. Couldn't be more progressive. I mean, outside of maybe Madison, Wisconsin or something. I mean, it is the centerpiece of progressive. And so he's like, okay, this is where I'm going to do it. And of course, you know, the Irish New York cops, they arrest them. And that arrest and conviction stayed on his record for his entire life. And it wasn't until, I believe, 2003, when Governor Pataki of New York overturned or gave him clemency or whatever, he pardoned him and struck that from the thing. So it was like he was. I know it sounds impossible to believe that. Adult. No adult complaint. There wasn't one patron. I love using that word, patron at these clubs. It was like, I can't. Like they knew the sick humor of Lenny Bruce. This is what we want to see. This is what we want to hear. And expand our minds a little bit. We might be offend. We can handle it. So it was just. Just try to think of that, you guys, of a time not that long ago. I mean, you know, I was born in 59, so it's not. It's in my lifetime when police would come into an establishment and arrest somebody for using language.

[Ben]

That's insane. They were also undercover police, is that correct? Like they were there in plain clothes or something.

[Wayne Fetterman]

Yeah, sometimes. I mean, the one in Chicago is hilarious because there's a recording of it and he's talking about the cop. He sees them over there and then he says something. And then the cop literally says, okay, folks, show's over. You know, like the cliche. And he gets arrested and they just shut it down.

[Noel]

Well, and here's the thing too. They actually, this was on the books. So in New York, he got arrested. It was because of something called penal code 1140 A. And this is the language of this. It prohibited something they referred to as, quote, obscene, indecent, immoral and impure dram. I assume that means drama, play, exhibition and entertainment, which would tend to the corruption of the morals of youth and others. And then, you know, this is so broad. This is such incredibly broad language, the corruption of youth and others. And it's like, who's asking for this?

[Ben]

But it's also, it's, it's also part of the hypocrisy of the American legal system. That's an historic thing. It goes to any form of language or communication.

[Noel]

Like the Mapplethorpe photographs, things like that.

[Ben]

Yeah, or like the James Joyce Ulysses, which went. All went to the courts on the basis of being what pornography. And the ultimate ruling was. I know it when I see it.

[Wayne Fetterman]

Right, right. So this is a very slippery. Now again, I want to talk about all of these issues, including motion pictures. What's going on with them as well. But the point you're making is youth and others. Was that the language, was it the youth and others.

[Noel]

Yeah, exactly. The corruption of the morals of youth and others. So what does this even mean? Who's asking for this? Where is this coming from? What are your thoughts?

[Wayne Fetterman]

I will tell you where it's coming from. There used to be something called community standards, and that was basically saying in this community, we don't want a certain kind of film here, and we don't want a certain kind of entertainment here. And there was, it was a lot of it was, believe it or not, the Catholic League would have their own board which would decide would rate movies. And like, if the Catholic Board didn't let your movie come into your town, it didn't come into your town. And they, you know, and that's how the politicians stayed in power. And that's how these penal codes, including the one you just read, 11. What was the number? 1140 A. Yeah, I always think of 1140 dash B. But I always get that wrong. I always get that wrong. No, that's fair.

[Noel]

It's fair.

[Wayne Fetterman]

That's why I'm not teaching at Yale. That's why I'm not at an Ivy League school. Right there. So. So that's. That was going on in the United States even when I was a kid. There was something called the Catholic League that would like, no, you can't have this come. This movie come in here. So that Only changed really in 1968 when they started the movie rating system. So before then, I don't know. This is incredible. Just, it's a sidebar, but I think it's interesting. It's a few years, maybe eight years after Lenny Bruce gets arrested. A lot is, you know, they put in these rating systems. So now the first movie to ever be right to win best picture is a G rated movie. The only one a G rated movie called Oliver. The next year, 69. An X rated movie wins best picture.

[Ben]

What was it?

[Wayne Fetterman]

That's, you know, Jon Voight. Everybody's talking Midnight Cowboys, Midnight Cowboy, which is funny because it's now been re rated. It's now been re rated as the Hoffman.

[Noel]

Dustin Hoffman is in that and Dustin Hoffman plays Lenny Bruce in the movie Lenny. So full circle.

[Wayne Fetterman]

Oh, it's all one big thing. It's all. But I'm just saying that sort of opened up the world for a lot of moviegoers, especially in small towns in America because then now they could see a movie that the Catholic League didn't deem, you know, immoral for this community, these community standards. So anyway, I just want to give an overall view of like why these penal codes were on the books. It just, it just gave them a legal reason to shut down a movie or something like that.

[Noel]

Oh, and it's crazy. We take all that for granted these days. I mean, it's so easy to not appreciate the fact that I can go watch anything I want on Netflix or, you know, in the theater that I can see Dirty Stu.

[Ben]

Well, people still do slide back into moral panics on a cyclical basis.

[Noel]

Oh, absolutely. Especially here.

[Wayne Fetterman]

What do you mean by that?

[Ben]

Oh, so for example, we will see the same kind of moral panic of rock music polluting the hearts and minds of young children because the beat is a little too bouncy.

[Noel]

That's right. I mean, there was even all that Tipper Gore stuff with the parental advisory stickers and rap music and Marilyn Manson and all that stuff. So. Absolutely. It seems like that stuff goes in cycles. But ultimately I feel like as a, as a culture, we're pretty free still to explore whatever tickles our fancy. As far as art's concerned.

[Ben]

I would advance. We are making progress, especially as a country. We're making progress. But what a lot of people don't know is that this was a hard won road and it was uphill for a lot of the ways.

[Wayne Fetterman]

And that's why we're still talking about Lenny Bruce. Yeah, yeah.

[Noel]

No, no, perfect.

[Wayne Fetterman]

That's really More than any comedy bit, he did any, you know, any of those bits which were wonderful. But I think that's the reason, you know, he's number three on the Rolling Stones, Greatest Comedians of All Time or something like that is. That's the reason.

[Noel]

Well, and there's that REM lyric in the End of the World as We Know It. Lenny Bruce is not afraid. And I think that's a very important way of looking at him. He kind of boldly went and boldly did not give a fuck about what was going to happen to him as far as the law was concerned. And that's why I think maybe overstated the case at the top of the show about comedians and as truth tellers. And maybe it's not something they're intending to do at the time. Maybe he's just speaking his truth and that's because he thinks it's funny, but removed from the time. And with his tragic end and all of this court case and all these court cases, you can't help but think that he was kind of paving the way for this kind of free speech and being able to just say whatever's on your mind and not be persecuted for it.

[Ben]

I think that's what. I think you encapsulated it very well there, Wayne, because also he's saying things that everybody knows but no one is saying in public.

[Wayne Fetterman]

You know, that's the hypocrisy of it all. Like, we've never heard these words.

[Noel]

And speaking of words.

[Ben]

Hey, seven in particular, right? Holy smokes. No, no, this is just kind of off to the side for us. But at this point in the interview, things are really heating up. This is going well.

[Noel]

It's a hot. Hot mics. Hot mics only. Not a hot mic. On this particular install, due to a technical difficulty, my mic was not properly on. So you're hearing my voice through Ben's mic or an adjacent mic. But we assure you for part two of this series, my mic will be on.

[Ben]

And we thought this interview was fantastic enough that we wanted to preserve it for posterity. So thank you for checking this out. This is a rare two parter for us. Have we ever done a concurrent two parter? No, this is a first for us.

[Wayne Fetterman]

This.

[Ben]

Then we're very excited and we hope that you tune in for the second part of this series wherein we explore the story of another controversial comedian whose case eventually went all the way to the Supreme Court.

[Noel]

I can't wait. In the meantime, we'd like to thank our super producer, Paul Decent, guest super producer Paul Deckent, our super producer in spirit, Casey Pegram, he's always with us. We'd like to thank Alex Williams, who composed our theme.

[Ben]

We'd like to thank Eve's Jeffcoat and Christopher Haciotes, our crack team of research associates. We of course would like to thank Wayne Federman, but you'll hear us do that plenty in the second episode. And Noel, you know what, man? Thank you.

[Noel]

Yeah, man. Thank you, dude. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Wayne Fetterman]

Every case that is a cold case that has DNA right now in a.

[Noel]

Backlog will be identified in our lifetime.

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[Paul]

He never thought he was going to get caught. And I just looked at my computer screen, I was just like, ah, gotcha.

[Wayne Fetterman]

This technology's already solving so many cases.

[Advertiser]

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[Producer]

Join iHeartRadio and Sarah Spain in celebrating the one year anniversary of iHeart Women's Sports with powerful interviews and insider analysis. Our shows have connected fans with the heart of women's Sports. In just one year, the network has launched 15 shows and built a community united by passion podcasts that amplify the.

[Wayne Fetterman]

Voices of women in sports.

[Producer]

Thank you for supporting iHeart women's sports and our founding sponsors, E L F Beauty, Capital One and Novartis. Just open the free iHeart app and search I Heart Women's sports to listen. Now the Girlfriends is back with a new season and this time I'm telling you the story of Kelly Harnett. Kelly spent over a decade in prison for a murder she says she didn't commit. As she fought for her freedom, she taught herself the law. He goes, oh God.

[Frank Dell]

Harnett Jailhouse Lawyer.

[Producer]

And became a beacon of hope for the women locked up alongside her.

[Wayne Fetterman]

You're supposed to have your faith in.

[Noel]

God, but I had nothing but faith in her. I think I was put here to.

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[Producer]

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[Ben]

I knew I wanted to obey and.

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[Wayne Fetterman]

This is an iHeart podcast.