CLASSIC: The Ridiculous Story of the World’s First (Documented) Serial Killer

Summary

Ridiculous History: CLASSIC - The Ridiculous Story of the World’s First (Documented) Serial Killer

Hosts: Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown
Guest: Super Producer Paul Decent
Release Date: July 12, 2025
Podcast: Ridiculous History by iHeartRadio

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Introduction: Unveiling History's Dark Corners

In this classic episode of Ridiculous History, hosts Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown delve into the murky waters of ancient Rome to uncover the tale of what may be the world’s first documented serial killer. Joined by their guest, super producer Paul Decent, the trio navigates through legends, historical accounts, and the enigmas surrounding a woman known as Locusta of Gaul.

---

Defining the First Serial Killer

Ben [05:41]:
"We're looking at real life monsters."

Ben sets the stage by questioning the fascination society holds towards serial killers, particularly in the United States. He muses on the cultural obsession and the psychological implications of why such figures captivate the public's imagination.

Noel [06:33]:
"Why is it so fascinating? My theory is that it makes us feel better about ourselves. It makes us be like, well, at least I'm not that crazy."

Noel explores the idea that serial killers might serve as a dark mirror, reflecting our own fears and moral boundaries.

---

Introducing Locusta of Gaul

The conversation shifts to Locusta of Gaul, a figure shrouded in historical ambiguity yet often cited as possibly the first serial killer on record. Unlike the more commonly known H.H. Holmes, Locusta's methods were subtle, relying on poison rather than overt violence.

Ben [09:56]:
"She was a poisoner. She wasn't out there, you know, sneaking up behind people and cutting their throats."

Locusta's expertise in various poisons made her both feared and respected in ancient Roman society. Her monikers—Locusta the Poisoner and Locusta the Sorcerer—highlight her dual reputation.

---

The Poisoning of Emperor Claudius

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to Locusta's most infamous act: the poisoning of Emperor Claudius, orchestrated by his ambitious wife, Agrippina the Younger.

Ben [17:31]:
"So she, like, I don't know, how did she exactly circumvent Hallitus?"

Noel [18:07]:
"She bribed the food taster... and then gave the mushrooms to her husband himself because he was a huge mushroom fan."

Agrippina's strategic elimination of Claudius paved the way for her son, Nero, to ascend to the throne. Locusta was entrusted with this high-stakes task, showcasing her pivotal role in Roman power dynamics.

---

The Poisoning of Britannicus

The plot thickens with the poisoning of Britannicus, Claudius's young son, aimed at eliminating Nero's potential rival.

Noel [22:50]:
"Do you want it to be fast or do you want it to be extended and painful?"

Locusta presents Nero with a chilling choice, reflecting the calculated cruelty behind her actions. The successful poisoning of Britannicus further cemented her reputation and solidified Nero's position as emperor.

---

Locusta's Rise and Reign of Impunity

With Nero's rise to power, Locusta enjoyed unprecedented freedom and status, even establishing a "poisoning school" to train others in the dark arts of assassination.

Ben [29:00]:
"Imperial Poisoner. Nero even sets up a poisoning school."

Her operations were systematic and clinical, blurring the lines between criminality and service to the emperor. Locusta operated above the law, a position that both empowered and isolated her within Roman society.

---

The Demise of Locusta: History vs. Legend

The episode delves into the uncertain circumstances surrounding Locusta's death, contrasting historical accounts with legends.

Ben [34:05]:
"And with that her prospects weren't looking so good because she was very much tied to this notion of Nero."

Historical records suggest that after Nero's fall, his subsequent successor, Emperor Galba, executed Locusta, marking the end of her notorious career.

However, legends paint a more bizarre picture, attributing her death to gruesome and fantastical methods involving giraffes and wild animals—stories that Ben and Noel dismiss as implausible but highlight the mythical aura surrounding her legacy.

Noel [35:29]:
"She's smeared with vaginal secretions from a giraffe... and then died as a result of the ensuing activity from a male giraffe who was trained to do this thing."

---

Reflections on Locusta as a Proto-Serial Killer

The hosts contemplate whether Locusta fits the modern definition of a serial killer, noting the functional aspect of her killings, potentially motivated by power and status rather than psychological compulsion.

Noel [37:46]:
"The definition of a serial killer that we use today largely implies some kind of abnormal release... Certainly not just a functional day job kind of situation."

This discussion raises questions about the applicability of contemporary terms to historical figures, emphasizing the complexities of categorizing actions across different societal norms and understandings.

---

Conclusion: The Legacy of Locusta

Ben and Noel conclude by acknowledging the historical significance of Locusta's actions and their impact on the perception of female perpetrators in history. They ponder the delicate balance between legend and fact, recognizing that while some aspects of Locusta's story may be exaggerated or mythical, her role in ancient Rome remains a testament to the lengths individuals would go for power.

Noel [38:54]:
"The 14-year-old boy poisoning where nobody would help him as he kicked and screamed and convulsed on the floor during a dinner party. That's pretty horrific."

The episode wraps up with a reflection on the darkness of human history, leaving listeners to ponder the real-life monsters that shaped the course of civilizations.

---

Acknowledgments and Listener Engagement

Towards the end, Ben and Noel engage with listener mail, addressing topics like historical accents and archaic insults, adding a lighter touch after the heavy historical narrative. They emphasize the importance of respectful humor and self-awareness in presenting history's more absurd moments.

Ben [40:32]:
"Whenever we are doing funny voices or accents, we're absolutely not trying to be derogatory at all."

This segment underscores the podcast's commitment to balancing informative content with engaging and respectful presentation.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Ben at [05:41]:
  "We're looking at real life monsters."

• Noel at [06:33]:
  "Why is it so fascinating? My theory is that it makes us feel better about ourselves."

• Noel at [22:50]:
  "Do you want it to be fast or do you want it to be extended and painful?"

• Noel at [35:29]:
  "She's smeared with vaginal secretions from a giraffe..."

• Noel at [37:46]:
  "The definition of a serial killer that we use today largely implies some kind of abnormal release."

---

Final Thoughts:

This episode of Ridiculous History masterfully intertwines historical research with engaging storytelling, bringing to light the dark and often overlooked narratives of the past. Through the story of Locusta of Gaul, Ben and Noel not only explore the origins of serial killing but also reflect on the broader implications of power, gender, and morality in history.

For listeners eager to uncover more of history's hidden and heinous tales, this episode serves as a compelling reminder of the complexities that lie beneath the surface of ancient civilizations.

Transcript

[Ben]

Fellow ridiculous historians, we are back with a classic, and this is a really weird one for us. We started looking into Noel, I think it began because we were looking into the history of serial killers and we found a story of someone who is often alleged to be the world's first documented murderer of this type.

[Noel]

This doesn't sound ridiculous. It sounds disturbing and upsetting.

[Ben]

Right?

[Noel]

I'm sure we handle it with wit and charm, though.

[Ben]

Oh, boy.

[Noel]

Discussion of La Costa of Gaul we're talking about, if I'm not mistaken, wasn't that like, the region that became France?

[Ben]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Noel]

Okay.

[Ben]

Cool, cool, cool, cool. This is an iHeart podcast.

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He never thought he was going to get caught. And I just looked at my computer screen, I was just like, ah, gotcha.

[Ben]

This technology's already solving so many cases.

[Unknown]

Listen to America's Crime Lab on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

The Girlfriends is back with a new season, and this time I'm telling you the story of Kelly Harnett. Kelly spent over a decade in prison for a murder she says she didn't commit. As she fought for her freedom, she taught herself the law.

[Ben]

He goes, oh, God. Harnett, jailhouse lawyer.

[Unknown]

And became a beacon of hope for the women locked up alongside her.

[Ben]

You're supposed to have your faith in.

[Noel]

God, but I had nothing but faith in her.

[Ben]

I think I was put here to.

[Unknown]

Save souls by getting people out of prison.

The Girlfriends, jailhouse lawyer. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

My Uncle Chris was a real character, a garbage truck driver from South Carolina who is now buried in Panama City alongside the founding families of Panama. He also happens to be responsible for the craziest night of my life. Wild stories about adventure, romance, crime, history and war intertwine as I share the tall tales and hard truths that have helped me understand Uncle Chris. Listen now to Uncle Chris on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

I knew I wanted to obey and submit, but I didn't fully grasp for the rest of my life what that for my heart. Podcasts and Rococo punch. This is the turning river road in the woods of Minnesota. A cult leader married himself to 10 girls and forced them into a secret life of abuse. But in 2014, the youngest escaped. Listen to the Turning river road on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ben]

Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Previously on ridiculous History. I'm kidding. I just always love when those voices come in at the beginning of something. Like, I'm lost.

[Noel]

I was going to just chime in and be like, what happened? I want to know. I was there and I don't even remember.

[Ben]

Right.

[Noel]

I'm Noel, by the way.

[Ben]

You're Noel. I'm Ben. We are joined with our guest super producer Paul Decent, who has an awesome sound cue.

[Noel]

Love that.

[Ben]

I love it.

[Noel]

That thing, whatever that is. Does Paul get to pick out his own sound effect? Because he's actually filling in for super producer Casey Pegram here in spirit.

[Ben]

Nice, Nice.

[Noel]

That's where the sound effect goes, Paul. And so, yeah, Paul could potentially pick out his own sound effect.

[Ben]

That's true. And I thought you did on a previous episode, Paul, but we can't wait to hear it.

[Noel]

Wait a minute. We've.

[Ben]

We've been informed.

[Noel]

Paul's had a sound effect all along and we knew what it sounded like. It's sort of a mission control.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Noel]

You know, bleeps and bloops kind of sound effect.

[Ben]

Yeah, yeah. It's very spacey.

[Noel]

I'm just bummed that Paul doesn't get to pick out his own sound effects. Clearly, Casey picked that out for him.

[Ben]

Yeah, Paul, if you want to pick your own sound effect, you completely have agency. Thanks for hanging out with us.

[Noel]

I think he should, you know, I think we should. Chuck, Casey's not around. Screw him. You know, just chuck it out.

[Ben]

How dare you?

[Noel]

Whoa. I have feelings. Casey abandoned us for France.

[Ben]

Yeah, well, Casey is living his other life and will return across the pond.

[Noel]

It's his best life.

[Ben]

Also, he is going to be back, so we need to be careful what we say about him. I don't want to angry Casey.

[Noel]

He's not going to hear these. He doesn't even edit them. He's not going to go back.

[Ben]

You don't think he listens to the show?

[Noel]

He might go back and just to see if we talked any trash.

[Ben]

Hey, Casey, thanks for tuning in.

[Noel]

Love you, buddy.

[Ben]

And if. If he hasn't listened. Fellow ridiculous historians, do not snitch on us. We're being very serious. But in our continuing streak of telling spookier tales as we get closer and closer to Halloween. Noel, you and I have touched on some gruesome practices such as cannibalism, and we've touched on legends of monsters. But today, we're looking at real life monsters.

[Noel]

Yeah, I mean, says you.

[Ben]

Okay, all right. Yes. We're talking about serial killers. And it is true that in the US Often, serial killers are given this kind of infamy. They're almost like there's something that's occasionally celebrated about them, which is terrible.

[Noel]

Yeah. Especially in, like, you know, in our industry, the podcast world, where it's like, we're just up to our ears in true crime stories. And I'm actually working on a true crime story right now that is a little different. It's not so much celebrating the idea of the serial killer. It's a little bit more of looking at what it means to be human, what it means to have these impulses, or to what the obsession with serial killers actually means to us as a culture. Like, why is it so fascinating? My theory is that it makes us feel better about ourselves. It makes us be like, well, at least I'm not that crazy. At least I've never actually murdered multiple people.

[Ben]

And one of the.

[Noel]

I just yell at my mom.

[Ben]

Yeah, right. I'm not that bad. One of the factors in this almost deification at times is certainly the question that people end up asking themselves, would I be someone capable of this? Could I understand that mentality? And it's a deep and dark question. But luckily, we're not going too far into the psychology of that kind of process on today's show. Although we do want to hear what you think about it. Feel free to write in we're ridiculoustuffworks.com today. Instead, we're delving into a question that has personally, and just speak for myself here personally haunted me for a while, and that is this. Who was the world's first serial killer?

[Noel]

Yeah, I actually googled this, Ben, like you do when you're trying to find things out. That's what we've been reduced to, is professional Googlers. You know, I don't even know how to use a card catalog.

[Ben]

I go to the library. You know, I live next door to a library.

[Noel]

You go there?

[Ben]

Yeah, I go there.

[Noel]

You go in there?

[Ben]

Yeah. I love libraries.

[Noel]

I like libraries, too. I'm kidding. I know how to use a card. Point being, I googled first serial killer, like I'm doing right now. And a name that commonly pops up is a guy named Herman Webster Mudgett, known as H.H. holmes. And he is considered, on paper at least, to be the first American serial killer.

[Ben]

Right, right.

[Noel]

Yeah. But the story we have today is not about Mr. Mudgett. It's about a lady serial killer.

[Ben]

Yes.

[Noel]

And the notion of the serial killer name is divisive. And I think there's an issue with maybe calling this person. This person was more of an assassin, really.

[Ben]

Yes. More of a poisoner. I do want to stop, though, because you mentioned HH Holmes. There's an amazing book, if you haven't read it yet, the Devil in the White City by Erik Larson.

[Noel]

White city being Chicago.

[Ben]

Yeah. H.H. holmes built a murder house. Gruesome, grim, and gory stuff. But you're right, Noel. There's a question about what makes someone a serial killer. And we've looked into this in previous episodes on other shows. This person, Locusta of Gaul, was a poisoner. She wasn't out there, you know, sneaking up behind people and cutting their throats.

[Noel]

But one could argue because of the benefits that she enjoyed with the protections that we're gonna get into of that she experienced, that she may well have fallen into a pattern where she just kind of did it for Lulz.

[Ben]

Yeah, yeah. Definitely not a mentally healthy person. So this occurs in the first century A.D. we don't know a ton of stuff. We don't know very much at all about Locusta's early life other than that she was from Gaul, because that's what people called her, Locusta from Gaul. Maybe there were a ton of other Locustas, and there was, like, Locusta from Rome, Lacusta from Gaul. Maybe that's how they differentiate. But Gaul itself was where northern Italy and the Alps are. And it's got three geographical regions around the time this happened. What I'm saying is it's a big place.

[Noel]

Well, it's France now. Right?

[Ben]

It's France and then northern Italy. So we bring this point up to say that knowing just that she is from Gaul doesn't really help us. Right.

[Noel]

What we do sort of know about her, though, is that she grew up living off the land, as it were, or at least in terms of, like, some of the species of plants that were available in that region. She was an active forager and kind of got herself real familiar with some of the uses of some of these herbs and flowers and various things that could be used for good or for ill.

[Ben]

There we go. I like that. Dramatic note, yes. Or for ill or for ill. Yeah, yeah, good. Yeah, yeah, we got it. So this person living off the land has a encyclopedic knowledge of the different plants that grow in her area and the different medicinal or nefarious uses of these plants, people recognize talent. And there was an empress named Agrippina the Younger who noticed that Locusta had, as Liam Neeson would say, a certain set of skills. And Lucusta at this point was already pretty notorious. Yeah.

[Noel]

How did her reputation precede her that it made it up to such high levels of government and like influencers or whatever? Ben?

[Ben]

Well, they stopped calling her Lacusta from Gaul and started calling her Lacusta the Poisoner. That became her new name.

[Noel]

Wasn't she also Lacusta the Sorcerer at some point?

[Ben]

Yeah, yeah.

[Noel]

She's a woman of many names. Crazy. So she was already kind of like doing little hits early on and even getting arrested, I believe.

[Ben]

She was imprisoned when Agrippina approached her in A.D. 54. And Agrippina had a particular job for her. She said, lacusta, I want you to poison my husband, Claudius.

[Noel]

Ooh, real quick. There's an amazing name given to her profession that combines her like, you know, knowledge and know how with herbs and their uses, with this idea of being an assassin.

[Ben]

Lay it on me.

[Noel]

Necro entrepreneur.

[Ben]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Noel]

And this was coined, maybe not coined, but used in this particular situation by Dr. Catherine Ramsland, who is a PhD in psychology.

[Ben]

Yeah, there's. First off, that's my favorite phrase that we've learned recently. And people did, in a way, respect this person's abilities. There were multiple poisoners in the area in ancient Rome at the time, but Locusto was by far one of the most well known and notorious.

[Noel]

We're also gonna get into why? Because it wasn't just that she, you know, anyone can slip somebody some poison or just like make poison or find it or whatever, you buy it. Right. But she was very wily and clever and crafty. And as we get into the next story involving her employ under Agrippina, that becomes infinitely clear.

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[Ben]

There's an excellent paper I found called Poisons Poisoning and the Drug Trade in Ancient Rome by L. Silliers and FP Retief at the University of the Free State. And in this they give us some more details about exactly how Lucusta came to be in the employ of Agrippina. So she had been convicted of multiple crimes during the reign of Claudius. She was a known repeat offender. She was bad medicine, which I guess works on a couple of levels. But let's keep going. Agrippina, you see, was the second wife of Claudius and she had a son named Nero, who I am sure is familiar to a lot of ridiculous historians.

[Noel]

Yeah, yeah. It was the name of that app he used to use to burn CDs back in the early 2000s.

[Ben]

Oh, wow. Deep cut Nero.

[Noel]

Yeah, yeah, it's because. But. But the reason it was named that is because Nero was a bit of a pyromaniac and he was known for burning Rome to the ground to some degree while playing a fiddle, allegedly. That doesn't really. There's another story that we're going to get to that allegedly happened, but it's fun to talk about. You know, legend and myth can sometimes be more interesting than the truth.

[Ben]

Yeah. Yes, agreed. So as we were saying, Agrippino wants her son Nero to be the new ruler. And she asks, like, a lot. Yeah, like, yes, a life or death sort of desire. And she asked Lucusta to poison. Let's see, I was saying Claudius. Let's say Claudius.

[Noel]

Yeah, that sounds good.

[Ben]

And she did it with. It was almost like a heist because as you can imagine, this guy has a lot of security.

[Noel]

Yeah. Tasters even.

[Ben]

He's got a food taster named Halotus. So what does she do? How does she get past this?

[Noel]

Do you think that's where halitosis comes from?

[Ben]

We can only hope.

[Noel]

I love.

[Ben]

I would love that.

[Noel]

I want that to be the case.

[Ben]

I was wondering the same thing.

[Noel]

Yeah. So she, like. I don't know, how did she exactly circumvent Hallitus? It was a little weird. Like, she. Did she bribe him to kind of get out of the way? Is that what happened?

[Ben]

So the way she gets past this is through the use of poison mushrooms, which originally are given to the emperor by his food taster. But that doesn't quite work, right?

[Noel]

I don't think so. Yeah. So I read that Agrippina bribed this food taster to kind of get him out of the picture and then gave the mushrooms to her husband herself because apparently he was like a huge mushroom fan. He really, really liked the shrooms. I can relate to that.

[Ben]

And some people. Some people will say that, or some sources at least will report that the closest aide, the food taster, was sick. And then others will say, no, Agrippina bribed him to malinger.

[Noel]

Either way, he wasn't around.

[Ben]

Right.

[Noel]

And the mushrooms went directly into the hands of Claudius, who was apparently a little drunk. And he did not kill him, but it made him convulse violently and have really bad tummy troubles. Right.

[Ben]

And so they wanted to induce vomiting.

[Noel]

That's right, that's right. So one source that I read has Agrippina herself feigning concern for her, you know, convulsing husband and daintily sticking this poison feather down his throat, because that was a thing. They would use a feather to induce vomiting and stick it down your throat and tickle your gullet or whatever, and then make you puke up the bad stuff. But instead, this feather was laced with an even deadlier poison.

[Ben]

Oh, and you know what, Let me step back just a second to clarify here. I think I've got the turn of events. Correct. So the day before the poisoning, Lucusta poisons the bodyguard and the bodyguard has to call out sick. And then Agrippina bribes the food taster, so they removed two people from the equation.

[Noel]

She's thinking several steps ahead of even US 4D space track podcasters. Yeah.

[Ben]

So dies because the feather has been poisoned. It's soaked in strychnine. Right. And all of a sudden, immediately after the death of this emperor, Nero ascends to the throne. And they recognize that Locusta, she has a lot of potential, especially if you are a power hungry emperor. Right. And, and there's an interesting pattern that transpires here because we mentioned she had been arrested more than once, multiple times. Twice she was arrested for murder, but each time she was arrested, a Roman senator bailed her out. People speculate it was kind of a way of buying a future kill.

[Noel]

Absolutely. She had friends in high places, no question about it. But the thing that's messed up here is that Agrippina, who obviously was trying to set these events in motion and get her boy Nero in the throne, she immediately threw Lacusta under the bus.

[Ben]

Immediately, Immediately she said, she poisoned my husband.

[Noel]

I wonder if that was like a strategic move.

[Ben]

Totally. That's what they call getting in front of getting ahead of it.

[Noel]

Yeah, but I wonder if it was really like Lacusta was in on it, maybe where it's like, all right, I'm gonna take the fall for this cause I'm already a known poisoner. Or if she just was caught completely unaware. Whatever the case might be, Nero, who is now a power hungry Looney Tune on his own, because Agrippina has really been jockeying for this stuff and trying to manipulate events, and now she's got what she wanted, more or less. But Nero, it doesn't seem like he's acquiescing to his mother anymore. He's Kind of got his own axe to grind in the form of another potential heir to the throne, a 14 year old who Claudius had given that sired under a previous marriage named Britannicus.

[Ben]

Right, right. And Lacusta is in a terrible spot because the death sentence she receives is death by bludgeoning. And by the time Nero reaches out to her, she's been in jail for several months. Here's the deal. He cracks. In about 55 AD or so, he frees Lacusta the poisoner at this point from prison. He gives her a bunch of money, he gives her some land, and he says he's going to make her an aristocrat, publicly absolved of all crimes she has committed or will ever commit. And all she has to do is poison this 14 year old. Britannicus is 14 years old, all she has to do is poison this child. And reputedly, allegedly, Acousta had one question. She said, do you want it to be fast or do you want it to be extended and painful?

[Noel]

Yeah, there's nothing monstrous about that at all.

[Ben]

That's her concern about poisoning a 14 year old.

[Noel]

Fast or protracted and painful.

[Ben]

She's like, look, I work for you now, Nero. So the story. Now some of the details may differ here, Noel, but here's what I heard. I heard that Nero invited this 14 year old Britannicus, which again, I like the name, to a huge party at one of the palaces and they were passing around wine, 14 year olds drank wine at that time. And Britannicus takes a sip from his wine goblet and then starts convulsing.

[Noel]

Is this the one though where like he had complained the wine was. This is good. Oh yeah, this is the one.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Noel]

So apparently back in those days they would dilute wine with hot water. So you'd be drinking hot wine that does not sound very refreshing with dinner. That was common and I was not aware of this at all. And apparently Britannicus found his hot wine to be too hot, so he wanted somebody to cool it on down for him. And the tasters tasted his hot wine, they did not taste the cold water that was added to it to make it less hot. And that's of course where the poison came into play again. Very, very, very, very sharp, very smart.

[Ben]

Hot wine is just such a weird phrase. Would you guys like that on a T shirt?

[Noel]

Mulled wine.

[Ben]

Mulled wine sounds way better because you add some herbs, it's a whole thing.

[Noel]

Yeah, hot wine sounds like the wine has gone bad.

[Unknown]

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Picture this. You're in the garage, hand covered in grease, just finished tuning up your engine with a part you found on ebay and you realize you know what I could use New brakes. So where do you go next? Back to ebay. You can find anything there. It's unreal. Wipers, headlights, even cold air intakes. It's all there. And you got ebay Guaranteed fit. You order a part and if it doesn't fit, send it back. Simple as that. Look, DIY fixes can be major. Doesn't matter if it's just maintenance or a major mod, you got it. Especially when things are guaranteed to fit. So when you dive into your next car project, start with ebay. All the parts you need at prices you'll love. Guaranteed to fit every time ebay things people love.

[Ben]

A foot washed up. A shoe with some bones in it. They had no idea who it was. Most everything was burned up pretty good from the fire that not a whole lot was salvageable.

[Unknown]

These are the coldest of cold cases. But everything is about to change.

Every case that is a cold case that has DNA right now in a backlog will be identified in our lifetime.

A small lab in Texas is cracking the code on DNA using new scientific tools. They're finding clues in evidence so tiny you might just miss it.

He never thought he would going to get caught. And I just looked at my computer screen, I was just like ah, gotcha.

On America's Crime Lab, we'll learn about victims and survivors and you'll meet the team behind the scenes at othram, the Houston lab that takes on the most hopeless cases to finally solve the unsolvable. Listen to America's Crime Lab on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

So what happened at Chappaquiddick? Well, it really depends on who you talk to.

[Noel]

There are many versions of what happened in 1969 when a young Ted Kennedy drove a car into a pond and.

[Unknown]

Left a woman behind to drown. There's a famous headline, I think, in the New York Daily News, it's Teddy Escapes, Blonde drowns. And in a strange way, right, that sort of tells you the story really became about ted's political future, Ted's political hopes. Will Ted become president?

[Noel]

Kappaquiddick is a story of a tragic death and how the Kennedy machine took control.

[Unknown]

And he's not the only Kennedy to survive a scandal.

[Noel]

The Kennedys have lived through disgrace, affairs, violence, you name it. So is there a curse? Every week we go behind the headlines and beyond the drama of America's royal family.

[Unknown]

Listen to United States of Kennedy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Ben]

Here's another interesting aspect to the story. Apparently Britannicus might have had epilepsy. So Nero was able to say, no, no, don't mess with him. He's having an epileptic fit.

[Noel]

Yeah. And apparently, like dinner went on as usual with the guest just kind of like awkwardly looking at this convulsing 14 year old in the corner of room and not wanting to offend the psychotic emperor, just went about their business, drinking their hot wine.

[Ben]

Drinking their hot wine. And it is a success. So instead of accusing Lucusta of murdering Britannicus the way Agrippina did, Nero says, you know, all right, done deal. Here's your land, here's your house. Treasures, treasures.

[Noel]

Pardons for all of the previous poisonings that she'd been accused of or convicted of or what have you. Clearing her name.

[Ben]

Impunity, indemnity, and little cherry on top here. An official title, Imperial Poisoner. Nero even sets up a poisoning school.

[Noel]

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And she was the head. Yeah, exactly. That's so brazen, though. It's like, I wouldn't think that's something you would. Maybe it is. Maybe it's sort of like a hey, look at me, I got my own poison or don't mess with me kind of thing.

[Ben]

I guess so, yeah. Like how much of it is a propaganda thing. But check this out. For the next 14 years, she is performing assassinations and poison. Poison, what would you call it? Poison operations, Poison projects. Sure, yeah, she's doing that. And she has immunity from the law. She's above the law and she did train women in the art of poisoning at her school.

[Noel]

We talked about this in the episode we did on a brief history of poisoning or arsenic.

[Ben]

I believe it was very gendered.

[Noel]

Yeah, it was very gendered and almost unfairly so. It became like a stereotype. That was a little bit like the idea of it being like a woman's weapon or something. A little bit misogynistic.

[Ben]

It's incredibly misogynistic. Yeah. So she used over time a ton of different things. Hemlock, belladonna, nightshade, arsenic. What's the stuff you use to treat malaria? Quinine.

[Noel]

Yeah, quinine.

[Ben]

Quinine. Quinine cyanide. Opium cyanide is a speculative thing, but the other stuff we know pretty much for sure. And she practiced the scientific method. She would keep track of what worked and how, which is why she asked questions like, do you want a painful slow death? Do you want something fast?

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Noel]

I mean, I've almost seen her described as something of a researcher, like, you know, practicing that scientific method, trial and error, seeing what would have the effects that she wanted and what would be the best substance to use for a particular situation. I'm sure she had tons of notes and data on this stuff. It'd be fascinating to get a hold of.

[Ben]

Absolutely, yeah. So we have to wonder, is that stuff lost to history? Is it still around somewhere? Would. Would you want to read it? If it is, we can say that although life went pretty well for this arch villain for a while, it did not end well for her. You see, Nero always carried. This is so hardcore, Noel. Nero always carried a suicide poison kit that Lacusta had made for him. And when he was sentenced to death in 69 AD and trying to escape his assassins, he forgot his suicide poison kit. So he killed himself with a knife. And the protection that Lacusta had enjoyed for so long was gone.

[Noel]

Yeah. And with that her prospects weren't looking so good because she was very much tied to this notion of Nero. Very similar to Caligula we talked about in the episode we did with Christopher Hastiotes about non human candidates where Caligula, the other insane. I mean, I'm sure there was more than one, but the another insane Roman emperor of note nominated his horse to be a consul when he died. A lot of his crazy stuff and the people his hangers on, you know, did not look too good and did not have the protection they needed to continue living the lives that they were living. Such as the case with Lacusta, because the people Saw Nero as a dangerous force, as a monster. A monster. A completely narcissistic, self involved megalomaniac who didn't care anything about the common people and only wanted to like, you know, feed his lavish lifestyle. And again actually burned part of Rome. Do you know the story about that? I'm not.

[Ben]

Well, here's how the story started there. The Great Fire of Rome, which is what that refers to that myth of him playing a violin while the city burned. It comes from two people, Suetonius and Cassius Dio, who allege that Nero didn't, didn't play a fiddle but that he sang a song called the Sack of Ilium dressed in stage like theater costumes while the city burned. And the idea of him playing a fiddle itself is propaganda. It's meant to help criticize Nero's earlier attempts to rewrite the Augustan models of governance and rulership. So it's kind of like Napoleon not really being short.

[Noel]

That's right. And then the Great Fire they were blaming. It's not even 100% confirmed, but many historians do blame, or at least one in particular. A guy named Tacitus blamed Nero for starting a fire in order to circumvent the Roman Senate and to create like a hubbub so that he could, you know, usurp power and do whatever he.

[Ben]

Wanted and being a total class act. Tacitus said that Nero accused Christians of starting the fire to take the heat off him. Sort of like mother like son kind of thing.

[Noel]

Sort of a. We didn't start the fire, it was always burning since the world was turning.

[Ben]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Noel]

Situation.

[Ben]

Now the death of Lucusta, also I want to correct, I think we said 69 AD for the death of Nero. That's not quite correct. It was in the late 60s A.D. but Lacusta, when we get to her death, we run full on face first into the realm of legend, big time. We've got two stories for you.

[Noel]

A bit of a tall tale, a bit of a.

[Ben]

It's a long tail for sure. It's a short story with a long tail.

[Noel]

A long neck, really.

[Ben]

A long neck, really. So the first one, one of the more commonly accepted, the more mundane stories, is that Lacusta had tried to escape or lay low and continue getting away with her murderous career. But the emperor who came after Nero, Emperor Galba, was not having it and Lacusta was chained up and dragged through the street and then just executed. But there's another legend.

[Noel]

Yeah, it's a totally bonkers legend.

[Ben]

It can't be True.

[Noel]

I don't know. I don't know how you would even train a giraffe to do this. But I did hear. And this is a little gross, guys.

[Ben]

This is very gross.

[Noel]

Yeah. Supposedly, according to this particular version of her demise, lacusta was smeared with vaginal secretions from a giraffe, a female giraffe, and then.

[Ben]

And then died as a result of.

[Noel]

The ensuing activity, the ensuing activity from a male giraffe who was trained to do this thing.

[Ben]

So the good news is that is we can say with a high degree of certainty that that that probably didn't happen.

[Noel]

Just logistically, man, it doesn't happen. Yeah. But it's definitely, it's in the record. It's, it's a, it's, it's a, it's a legend for sure.

[Ben]

And it does bring us.

[Noel]

Oh, and then torn apart by wild animals.

[Ben]

And then torn apart. Yeah.

[Noel]

Can't forget that. That's, that's huge.

[Ben]

But it's part of the whole thing. So we looked into this, where this claim would originate, and this kind of stuff, it surfaces in the Encyclopedia of Serial Killers by a guy named Michael Newton, at least in the first version. But there's no precise date of death, there's no precise location. There's not really any confirmation that this happened. And when we talk about stories of people living in this time, especially people who had a lot of enemies, there's a ton of propaganda. There are a ton of made up things that were meant to ridicule, mock, or vilify a particular person. Right. Or event or government or institution. And the moral of the story is, I guess, that eventually justice did catch up with lacusta. Is she history's first documented serial killer? Well, it depends on how you define it, because the term serial killer didn't exist at the time. And then if she's doing this as a job, she's essentially doing hits on people. Does that make all Mafia or Yakuza assassins? Does that make them serial killers? Or are they just people doing a job for monetary gain?

[Noel]

Well, that's the thing. And we also don't know because of how free to go about her Mary poisoning way she was if she didn't kind of get off on it a little bit, get some jollies from it. Right. Because definition of a serial killer that we use today largely implies some kind of abnormal release, I guess, that you get from doing it or some kind of like you're compelled to do it. Certainly not just a functional day job kind of situation. Right?

[Ben]

Yeah, absolutely. And I don't know, it's. It's comforting to me that eventually justice was served. But it is terrifying to think that someone could be acting with impunity, literally above the law and have it be a known thing. I'm sure there are different operators for different countries, intelligence agencies who do stuff like this, who are legally required at times to take lives. But for this to be so blatant is surprising. And if even some of this stuff is true, this person was a monster, a real monster.

[Noel]

The 14 year old boy poisoning where nobody would help him as he kicked and screamed and convulsed on the floor during a dinner party.

[Ben]

Horrific.

[Noel]

That's pretty horrific.

[Ben]

So that is the story of Lucusta. And one thing that we are running into with our Halloweeny or Halloween ish episodes is this strange thing at the end where we get to. We get to the conclusion of a tale and it's a real downer. We went through something dark and grim. We've got to bring the mood up. Noel there's only one way to do it and I think you know what it is.

[Noel]

Boy, do I ever. It's listener mail. Ben and our first mail comes from Ayumi who writes. Hello historians, I'm listening to your episode A Dead Pope Goes to Court and you were wondering about mock accents in other English speaking places. Now I'm American so I don't know firsthand, but much like with other foreign languages, a lot of English textbooks and show examples of English in different accents up to and including foreign accents. I have one textbook that I use with high level English as foreign language speakers that's from the UK and the listening features conversations and monologues. They want to showcase many accents. However, for me it's incredibly obvious that all the voices are being done by English people who are putting on accents. And they do include that Italian accent with a character actually named Amario and an over the top Spanish accent for a character asking a friend if he would like more paella. I know it's something Americans do professionally too, so we're no better. But I thought you might like to know about that. Cheers. Ayumi.

[Ben]

Oh, that's great. Thank you for writing in. You've written in a couple of times. We always love to hear from you.

[Noel]

Absolutely.

[Ben]

And we want to be very clear here that whenever we're doing. Of course it should go without saying, but let's say it, whenever we are doing funny voices or accents, we're absolutely not trying to be derogatory at all. We sometimes think that we're funny. Not even. We're not even really so much making fun of Richard Nixon as we are enjoying doing that voice. Yeah.

[Noel]

Making fun of ourselves. Because if you can't do that, then, you know, what good are you exactly?

[Ben]

If you can't laugh at yourself? Here's a. Speaking of. However, there's a good segue. Speaking of being derogatory or using pejorative language, we'd like to read a short and sweet letter from Aaron M. Aaron, you write in and you give us some nicknames here. You say Vitoben and Null Sapien. I think you all should do a segment on ridiculous historical insults. I thought you would find the link below comical and entertaining. This is from Erin in Chicago and there are some great insults in this source she sent us from Oxford. I don't know if you had pulled this up or got a chance to look at it, but there's a flibberty gibbet.

[Noel]

Flibberty gibbet?

[Ben]

Is it jibbet? I have it. You know why?

[Noel]

Because it's in a song from the Sound of Music called Nobody Has a Problem like Maria. How do you solve a problem like Maria? It's like a flibbity jibbit. A will of the wisp. A clown.

[Ben]

Yeah. A chattering or gossiping person. And then there's a foozle.

[Noel]

Now this one I don't know, but I love sounds like something from like a Dr. Seuss book.

[Ben]

Someone who's behind the times.

[Noel]

A foozle.

[Ben]

A foozle. There's slubberty gullion. A slobbering or dirty fellow, kind of soiled or stained. There's this one. Sounds dirty. It's not a curse word, but just sounds dirty. Shot clog. Like a shot clog is someone who's unwelcome in a social situation but tolerated because he's paying the bill for everyone. He's a shot clog and I don't want to spoil the surprise with more. Suffice to say, Aaron, thank you so much for sending us some of these cool, archaic ridiculous historical insults. Did you hear anything that particularly called to you?

[Noel]

No. On that email, I actually haven't seen it. I need to dig it up now because I am intrigued.

[Ben]

Well, thank you to Aaron and Ayumi. And thank you to everyone for joining us on this strange journey. Huge shout out to our guest super producer, Paul Deckent.

[Noel]

And even though he's abandoned us, we can still give a shout out to Casey in absentia. And also to Alex Williams, who composed our theme.

[Ben]

And thanks to our research associates, Yves Jeffcoat and Christopher Haciotes.

[Noel]

And, you know, thanks to you, Ben.

[Ben]

And thanks to you, Noel.

[Noel]

I was looking at you.

[Ben]

Thanks to both of us for not poisoning people for a living. I think podcasting, while not the most noble of professions, is better than being a poisoner, right?

[Noel]

How dare you. It's as noble as it gets.

[Ben]

It's better than poisoning people.

[Noel]

We're getting people through their shifts, man.

[Ben]

Yeah, yeah, that's the ticket.

[Noel]

They're night shifts or their day shifts or, you know, whatever.

[Ben]

They're shifting shifts indeed.

[Noel]

For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Unknown]

Every case that is a cold case that has DNA right now in a backlog will be identified in our lifetime.

On the new podcast America's Crime Lab. Every case has a story to tell and the DNA holds the truth.

He never thought he was going to get caught. And I just looked at my computer screen, I was just like, ah, gotcha.

[Ben]

This technology's already solving so many cases.

[Unknown]

Listen to America's crime Labor on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

The Girlfriends is back with a new season, and this time I'm telling you the story of Kelly Harnett. Kelly spent over a decade in prison for a murder she says she didn't commit. As she fought for her freedom, she taught herself the law.

[Ben]

He goes, oh, God. Harnett, jailhouse lawyer.

[Unknown]

And became a beacon of hope for the women locked up alongside her.

[Noel]

This was I have been faith in God, but I had nothing but faith in her.

[Unknown]

I think I was put here to save souls by getting people out of prison.

The Girlfriends, Jailhouse lawyer. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

My Uncle Chris was a real character, a garbage truck driver from South Carolina who is now buried in Panama City alongside the founding families of Panama. He also had happens to be responsible for the craziest night of my life. Wild stories about adventure, romance, crime, history and war intertwine as I share the tall tales and hard truths that have helped me understand Uncle Chris. Listen now to Uncle Chris on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

I knew I wanted to obey and submit, but I didn't fully grasp for the rest of my life what that meant for my heart. Podcasts and Rococo Punch. This is The Turning River Road in the woods of Minnesota, a cult leader married himself to 10 girls and forced them into a secret life of abuse. But in 2014, the youngest escaped. Listen to the Turning river road on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

This is an iHeart podcast.