CLASSIC:Hong Xiuquan: The Younger Brother of Jesus Christ Who Led a Bloody Rebellion in China

Summary

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Ridiculous History – CLASSIC: Hong Xiuquan: The Younger Brother of Jesus Christ Who Led a Bloody Rebellion in China

Podcast: Ridiculous History
Hosts: Ben Bowlin, Noel Brown, with super producer Casey Pegram
Episode Date: May 9, 2026 (rebroadcast of a 2019 episode)

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Episode Overview

This episode of Ridiculous History revisits the extraordinary story of Hong Xiuquan, a 19th-century Chinese man who, after a series of personal failures and mystical visions, declared himself the younger brother of Jesus Christ. His claim would ignite the infamous Taiping Rebellion, a massive civil war that shook China and resulted in tens of millions of deaths. The hosts explore how Hong’s personal crisis evolved into a fanatical movement that radically challenged the established society and politics of Qing China, ultimately creating one of the deadliest events in all of human history. Throughout, the hosts maintain their signature irreverent, conversational style—blending deep historical research with humor and a pointed perspective on cults, charismatic leaders, and the unpredictability of history.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. What Constitutes a “Cult” and How Did Hong Fit In?

• Defining "Cult" vs. Religion
  • The episode opens with a meta discussion about the word “cult,” its divisiveness, and how it's used on a spectrum from new religious movement to pejorative label.
    • "One man's religion is another man's cult… It's a very divisive term because it's thrown around as a term of abuse." – Casey [04:35]
• Motivation for Cult Leaders
  • The hosts humorously lament the hard work of everyday cult leaders versus the notorious, violent ones history remembers.
    • "We always hear about these famous, violent cults. But… what about the cult leaders that time forgot, Ben?" – Noel [05:50]

2. Hong Xiuquan’s Early Life and Repeated Failures

• Failed Scholar to Would-Be Messiah
  • Hong was a Hakka from southern China, aspiring to rise above his impoverished origins through the imperial exams—a grueling, competitive academic system. Repeated failures led to crushing disappointment.
    • "Less than 1% of the people who took the test pass, and Hong was among those that did not." – Casey [07:41]
• West-East Collision: Opium and Christianity
  • The British opium trade and missionaries altered Chinese society. Hong encountered Christianity during a visit to Guangzhou, accepting a missionary’s pamphlet with little impact at first.
    • "Ideas are just as valuable, and indeed just as dangerous, as opium, silk, fine China, or what have you." – Noel [10:11]

3. Mystical Visions and the Birth of a Messiah

• Hong's Breakdown and Revelatory Visions
  • After his third—and then fourth—exam failures, Hong experienced a severe mental and physical crisis, described as a fever-dream filled with apocalyptic battles and divine revelations.
    • "He hallucinates that he takes a trip… to some sort of paradise, a heavenly land in the east. And then his father reveals to him that there are demons…" – Casey [13:05]
• Interpreting the Visions
  • Only later, upon re-reading the Christian pamphlet, did he interpret the father figure as God, the older brother as Jesus Christ, and the king of hell as the serpent—a “Usual Suspects” plot twist moment.
    • "He becomes convinced… the father figure in his visions was the Christian God… the older brother was Jesus Christ himself." – Noel [21:10]
    • "Holy smokes. Put two and two together. I am the son of God." – Noel [22:41]

4. Building the God Worshipping Society and Founding a Cultic State

• From Private Revelation to Public Movement
  • Hong started sharing his visions, gathering followers (especially among the marginalized Hakka), forming the God Worshipping Society, and writing his own religious treatises.
    • "He clearly had drive… and his message started spreading like wildfire. Cultile." – Casey [23:27]
• Societal Radicalism
  • Hong’s movement was as much about rebellion as religion: he outlawed opium, abolished Confucian texts, instituted communal property, and dramatically altered cultural norms (such as hairstyles and gender roles).
    • "It's a proto version of communism. He stresses sharing property… He promises free land to all of his followers." – Noel [25:27]
    • "They chop off their braids … start wearing these red turbans as a symbol of their undying allegiance to Hong." – Casey [26:00]

5. The Taiping Heavenly Kingdom: Full-Fledged Civil War

• Seizing Power
  • Within only a few years, the Taiping captured Nanjing and established the “Heavenly Kingdom”—a massive state-within-a-state that openly rejected Qing rule.
    • "Within two years, Hong and the God worshiping society have captured the city of Nanjing… Hundreds of thousands of people are overthrowing the social status quo." – Noel [27:11]
• Gender and Social Reforms—But Only Sometimes
  • The Taiping established radical gender policies (segregating sexes, promising more equality—though Hong continued classic cult-leader hypocrisy by keeping a harem).
    • "Heavily segregated men and women… but not for him. He had something of a harem in his abode." – Casey [28:56]
• Escalation to Catastrophe
  • The movement soon controlled territory containing some 30 million people (about 10% of China's population at the time), drawing the ire of both the Qing and foreign powers.
    • "More than 30 million people living inside his little sub kingdom… and this is a real threat to the powers that be." – Casey [30:25]

6. Downfall and Atrocities of the Taiping Rebellion

• International Intervention
  • When the Taiping threatened Shanghai, European powers intervened to protect their trading interests, helping the Qing with advanced weaponry.
    • "The Europeans come with the latest word, the bleeding edge of military technology… and they use cannon fire to just tear through the Taiping rebels." – Noel [36:56]
• Collapse and Final Chaos
  • Beset from without and within (including infighting and paranoia), the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom fell. Hong, retreating into spiritual isolation, died (likely from poisoning by eating a foraged weed in desperation).
    • "He says, 'We're just gonna drink tears from heaven, eat mana from heaven'… and it turns out to be deadly poison and he dies." – Casey [39:33]
    • "His teenage son steps in… [but] bloodbath ensues. Night Night, Kingdom of Heaven." – Noel [40:23]
• Aftermath and Death Toll
  • The rebellion led to between 20 and 70 million deaths—making it among the deadliest conflicts ever.
    • "Estimates vary widely… anywhere between 20 to 70 million people. That makes it one of the deadliest conflicts in human history." – Noel [40:39]

7. Reflections on History, Legacy, and Forgotten Tragedy

• Why Don’t Westerners Know This Story?
  • The hosts reflect on the fact that such a catastrophic event is little-known outside China, despite being on par with history’s most infamous tragedies.
    • "How insane is it that a story involving the death of 20 to 70 million human beings… not really a death cult, but certainly… How crazy is it that we don't know about that? They don't teach that in history class." – Casey [43:28]
• Parallels to Modernity
  • The episode closes by observing the enduring human tendency to charismatic, messianic movements—past and present.
    • "The world is overflowing with would-be messiahs… In 2019, there are plenty of groups… who believe they are either God or the avatar of God or the younger brother of a divine figure." – Noel [42:20]
    • "Somebody's got to. Be more power to you. Just try not to, you know, foment any bloody uprisings." – Casey [43:08]

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On "Cult" Definition:
  "'One man's religion is another man's cult.'" – Casey [04:35]

• On Hong’s “Usual Suspects” Revelation:
  "Hong is having this usual suspect moment as he's reading… Wait, the father in my dream is God? The older brother… Jesus… the king of hell… the serpent… Holy smokes. Put two and two together. I am the son of God." – Noel [22:41]

• On Leadership Hypocrisy:
  "From L. Ron Hubbard and the Sea Org to David Koresh, usually cult leaders have a do as I say, not as I do sort of approach." – Noel [29:03]

• On Historical Irony:
  "What if he had passed his exams? It's kind of like, what if Hitler got accepted into art school?" – Noel [41:20]

• On History's Amnesia:
  "How crazy is it that we don't know about that? They don't teach that in history class." – Casey [43:28]

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Important Segment Timestamps

• Discussion of "Cult" and Definitions – [04:08–06:26]
• Hong Xiuquan’s Background and Exam Failures – [06:28–12:44]
• Visions and Psychotic Break – [12:44–15:53]
• Interpretation of Christian Pamphlet, Spark of the Movement – [16:54–23:27]
• Formation of the God Worshipping Society – [23:27–27:11]
• Societal/Religious Reforms and Rebellion – [27:11–30:25]
• Rise and Rule of the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom – [30:25–32:47]
• Foreign Intervention and Fall of the Rebellion – [36:56–40:23]
• Death Toll and Legacy – [40:39–41:20]
• Why Isn't This in History Books? – [43:28–44:05]
• Contemporary Parallels and Wrap-Up – [42:20–44:44]

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Ridiculous History is a lively, compelling exploration of how one man’s personal delusions combined with historical circumstance to spark a colossal tragedy. Hong Xiuquan’s story—by turns absurd, chilling, and tragic—serves as a harrowing lesson about the unpredictable and often dangerous overlap between religious fervor, social unrest, and charismatic leadership.

The hosts underscore both the world-shaking gravity of Hong’s impact and the irony that such a saga remains obscure to many outside China. Their tone is irreverent but deeply curious, reminding listeners that “ridiculous” history is often the most important history of all.

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Transcript

[Ben]

Fellow ridiculous historians, we are returning to you with a classic episode from 2019

[Noel]

which absolutely rocked our world.

[Ben]

It's a story not often told in the West. It's about a guy named Hong Shi

[Noel]

Huan who calls himself the younger brother of Jesus Christ.

[Casey Pegram]

Only I don't remember that chapter that Jesus had a younger brother. Wouldn't that be fun? Well, you might not either. That's because it isn't in the Bible. But Hong believed himself to be related to Jesus Christ. He was a school teacher and he had a bit of a mental health crisis after failing his scholarly exams. That seemed to result in a series of visions that showed him his true calling and his destiny.

[Ben]

Yeah, it's weird because pretty often in

[Noel]

history when people have these visions, they never get a vision of them being an unimportant person. Isn't that weird?

[Casey Pegram]

No. Usually a little bit self aggrandizing. It's almost as if the vision was within you.

[Ben]

Yes, just so. And our pal Hogg doesn't become some itinerant guy just telling people he knows Jesus Christ personally. His visions end up sparking one of

[Noel]

the deadliest rebellions in all of Chinese history.

[Casey Pegram]

A twist ending. Let's roll the tape.

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[Ben]

As you know, fellow ridiculous historians, yours truly, we recently got back from Baha Mar in Bahamas. We had the most amazing time. One of my favorite things, and I'm

[Noel]

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[Casey Pegram]

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foreign.

[Ben]

Hi everyone.

[Noel]

Welcome to the show. In a previous episode, you may have noticed that I took great pride in dropping the C word. Cult. Cult itself can be a dicey phrase, right? Most people who are participating in a religious organization do not care for their organization to be referred to as a cult.

[Casey Pegram]

One man's religion is another man's cult.

[Noel]

Sure.

[Casey Pegram]

Man or woman or whatever have you. It's a very divisive term because it's thrown around as a term of abuse. But there certainly are criteria. Check the boxes that tend to line up more with cult than religion, right?

[Noel]

Yeah. Way back in the day, my pal Matt and I, our mutual pal Matt Frederick, we made a great video about how to tell whether or not you are in a cult. Please do check it out on YouTube or wherever you watch videos, stuff they want you to know. How to start a cult. I can't remember. And we all like the idea, right, of starting a cult.

[Casey Pegram]

Do we?

[Noel]

Well, I just assume you don't like that idea.

[Casey Pegram]

You know, it's not my go to.

[Noel]

I feel like it's a natural tendency. I feel like in another life I've probably started several cults. But if you think about it, if you take away the glamour, it's a very tedious life. It's a lot of work. Whether you're just a follower of a cult or you're the leader of a cult, you're basically on call all the time. You don't really get vacation. You probably don't make a lot of money. We always hear about these famous, violent cults. But what. What about those cult leaders who are out there, you know, just grinding every day? They got like 15 people with them.

[Casey Pegram]

And what about the cult leaders that time forgot, Ben? What about them? What of them?

[Noel]

I am glad you asked, Noel. And we. Oh, we've also got to alert our super producer, Casey Pegram. Casey, this is going to be a weird one.

[Casey Pegram]

I am absolutely in the cult of Casey, by the way.

[Noel]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The COC Big time. Do you subscribe to the newsletter?

[Casey Pegram]

I subscribe to the newsletter. I get the Spotify playlists. I'm all about it.

[Noel]

I do. I like to wait for his yearly donation period because if you put in 50 bucks, you get the tote bag, but if you put in 75 bucks, you get the tote bag and the water bottle.

[Casey Pegram]

The COC is like the NPR of cults.

[Noel]

It really is. It really is. I appreciate those pledge drives, Casey. And speaking of cult leaders, today's story takes us to China in the early 1800s. There is a guy named Hong Xiuquan, and we're mispronouncing this name Hong.

[Casey Pegram]

I'm going to mispronounce it even worse than you, Ben. So you're doing a fine job.

[Noel]

Oh, no, I'm not. Not really. So this. This guy, Hong Siu Kwan, can I

[Casey Pegram]

just call him Hong X?

[Noel]

Sure. Yeah. Is born on January 1, 1814. He's a New Year's baby. And he is the third and youngest son of a poor Haka family. His story gets propagandized pretty heavily as it goes on. So now his origins are a little bit. The sources are a little bit contradictory. Some people say he was poor. Some people say his family was well to do. But, you know, one man's palace is another man's dumpster, right? This kind of the idea of success is relative. But let's learn a little bit more about Hong. Hong X, as you call him. Noel, what do we know about this guy?

[Casey Pegram]

Well, we know that he had the dream in his heart, a twinkle in his eye. He wanted to grow up and be a scholar. In order to do that, it's sort of like studying for the bar, right? To be a scholar in this period in Chinese history, you had to take this test. You had to memorize these Confucian texts and take these things called the Imperial exams. It was the equivalent of going to college or getting your SATs or whatever. All of that kind of combined into this life or death test. More like the bar, because it was like, it was such a big deal. You'd study for it so much that if you failed it, it was a really crushing blow. And nobody wants to take the bar twice. Thusly. No one wanted to take the Imperial exams twice, unfortunately. Oh, by the way, less than 1% of the people who took the test pass, and Hong was among those that did not.

[Ben]

Yes.

[Noel]

Yeah. The Imperial Exams are a big, big, big deal. And that attrition rate is nasty. It is not something to mess with. Hong, however, does not give up. He decides he will retake the exams. He travels to a city in the South, Guangzhou, and he decides he's going to take the exams again in 1836. This city is amazing at this time. It's a port. It's a center of culture for the Qing Dynasty. But with all this culture and with all this population and all this trade, there comes a dark side. You see, a lot of the trade that goes through this port city comes from the West. And the west at this time has one big, big product that they are pushing into Chinese markets.

[Casey Pegram]

That's right. The British were a big, huge part of this culture. And they were bringing in lots of opium that they were growing in India, where they also held imperial rule, essentially. And they were, you know, they didn't have. They didn't hold sway over China per se, but there was a pretty serious foothold that they had in the Chinese Empire in the Qing Dynasty. Correct, Ben?

[Noel]

Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right. So the. The problem here is that the country of China is producing all this really cool stuff that the British forces want. Tea and Tea, fine China.

[Sean Duffy]

Luxury.

[Casey Pegram]

Yes.

[Noel]

They literally call the porcelain fine China.

[Casey Pegram]

That's right.

[Noel]

And silk, of course. And the British don't really have a lot of stuff that China wants, so there's a trade deficit. They do, however, have that opium growing in India, and they double down on this. They're flooding the markets with opium to the point that it is destabilizing Chinese society. But you see, not every import is a tangible thing. Ideas are just as valuable and indeed, just as dangerous as opium, silk, fine China, or what have you. So Hong is walking through the streets of this city, thinking about his exam, when he hears a missionary from the far flung shores of North America proselytizing, which means attempting to convert people to his religion, to Christianity. And this guy doesn't speak Chinese. He doesn't speak Cantonese nor Mandarin, but he has an interpreter with him. So picture, if you will. You're a kid. You're hangx. You're walking through these crowded, bustling streets, and you see a guy probably standing on an apple box or a crate just yelling out in English, save yourselves. Learn the truth. So and so. And then there's an interpreter who has to listen, so there's a little bit of a lag. And I don't know whether the interpreter is just calmly remarking on the things this guy is yelling about, but I hope he's yelling too, at a slight time delay.

[Casey Pegram]

I, too, would like to believe that, Ben.

[Noel]

So what happens? Hong hears him, right?

[Casey Pegram]

He hears him. And he doesn't think too much of it at the time, but he. At least you know, he's not gonna be rude. He takes the pamphlet. You gotta. You gotta take the pamphlet. So he takes the pamphlet, folds it up, saves it for later, and it turns out that it will end up having a massive impact on Hong, but not until after this next phase of the story, wherein he fails the exam again and then proceeds to have something of what you might call a psychotic breakdown. Right, Yeah, A complete and utter meltdown, nervous breakdown.

[Noel]

He fails the exam twice, and then he takes it a third time a year later. And he fails the third time. That's right. And this. Yeah, this pushes him to the edge. He goes home, he says, I feel sick. And he lays down and he has a fever dream, or a vision, somewhat.

[Casey Pegram]

A series of visions and fever dreams. And he really seems sick. Like, he seems physically ill. His complexion is all pallid. He is sweating. He is feverish. His parents are very, very concerned about him. So he. In his. Let's, let's. Let's.

[Noel]

Let's walk through this.

[Casey Pegram]

Yeah, yeah.

[Noel]

Walk through the vision or the hallucinations.

[Casey Pegram]

Yeah. So he. This is amazing. It's just amazing. This is like. This should be a movie. So he hallucinates that. He takes a trip, a sojourn to some sort of paradise, a heavenly land in the east. And then his father reveals to him that there are demons that are destroying humanity.

[Noel]

All right, yeah, I mean, I get it.

[Casey Pegram]

You're on board.

[Noel]

Yeah.

[Casey Pegram]

Okay. So then, of course, he has to have a special magical sword. He gets a magical sword that's bestowed upon him by his father. And then with the help of his brother, they fight the demons and what he refers to as the King of Hell.

[Noel]

Yes. After the battle. He doesn't wake up after the battle. He stays in heaven, gets a Wife, and they have a child together. Eventually, he returns to earth bearing his new title, Heavenly King, Lord of the Kingly Way Way, way, way. His family is not 100% on board with this.

[Casey Pegram]

Well, no, because from where they stand, he's just been tossing and turning around in bed for days. I mean, there's not exactly a specific timeline, but I can't imagine this.

[Noel]

This was.

[Casey Pegram]

This happened over a period of time, and he just seems like he's losing it. And he, you know, he goes from being fully asleep to turning around in bed and screaming, you know, nonsense syllables, to jerking upright and assuming a fighting stance and then going back to bed. I mean, just, you know, really, really not well. And he finally wakes up, and he explains to his parents the dream. And he had written like this in the form of poetry that he kind of, like, dream journaled when he woke up. It's pretty impressive.

[Noel]

Oh, and he also came back with the name Hong Siakwan, because his original name was Hong Ho Hsiu. But that father figure he meets in the hallucination tells him that his given name violates taboos and has to be changed. So not only is he waking up, this is very, very fantastic story. He's also waking up with a different name. Everybody in the village thinks this guy is bonkers. If this guy were a breakfast, he would be nuts and bananas.

[Casey Pegram]

It's true. Is that a breakfast?

[Noel]

Well, yeah. You could eat, like, nuts and bananas. People do that all the time.

[Casey Pegram]

Really? Like, together, like, mixed up with what? With oats, maybe?

[Noel]

Sure. Oats, probably yogurt.

[Casey Pegram]

Okay.

[Noel]

Yogurt. People are crazy, man. They'll put anything in yogurt.

[Casey Pegram]

Okay, from now on, I think when we say something is insane, we should refer to it as yogurt.

[Noel]

You know what? Let's give it a spin. Let's take it around the block, see

[Casey Pegram]

if we can make that. Let's see if we can make that. Catch on.

[Noel]

We might have enemies with big yogurt, but. But, yeah.

[Casey Pegram]

So Hong has gone full yogurt, and he is looked upon askance by the people of the village, but he's able to put it behind him. Yeah, he gets better pretty quickly. He bounces back.

[Noel]

I know.

[Casey Pegram]

He decides to take the exam a fourth time because it worked out. And what happens?

[Ben]

He fails.

[Casey Pegram]

He fails again.

[Noel]

He fails a fourth time again. It's a very, very difficult exam. There's a lot of corruption involved. Only 1% of the people who take it will. Will succeed.

[Casey Pegram]

The 1% of the 1% of the 1% kind of and seems like a bit of a classist kind of thing where.

[Noel]

Well, yeah, I mean, you have to. What isn't classist?

[Casey Pegram]

Well, that's fair. But what I'm saying is it doesn't seem to be entirely merit based. Maybe like certain people have a leg up in passing the exams.

[Noel]

Absolutely, absolutely. So he is. He's still in his 20s at this time and he has failed this exam, but thankfully not once, not twice, not three, but four times. And he still has a certain pamphlet.

[Casey Pegram]

He has that pamphlet. He finds it neatly folded in his pristinely pressed tunic. Right. I don't know about that. I'm editorializing here. But he definitely finds it somewhere and he starts to make some connections, doesn't he? Because the tract actually portrayed China as this kind of post apocalyptic wasteland, which wasn't terribly far off from the truth. I mean, there was certainly some hyperbole here, but these opium wars and the opium addictions that ravaged China really destabilized the country from 1839 to 1842. And finally it ended with the treaty of Nanjing, which really gave Britain the upper hand and allowed them to be much more of a colonizer of China.

[Noel]

Right, right. Absolutely. This is ultimately the reason that so many Christian missionaries were able to make it into the country and stay there.

[Ben]

Guys, we live in the beautiful southeastern part of the United States. And every time spring comes, we get

[Noel]

a lot of pollen, we get a lot of flowers, we get a lot of bugs.

[Casey Pegram]

We do. And it gets a little hot and humid out there. And so you do end up having bugs kind of seeking cooler climbs and then often involves climbing under your door. In my case, it was an ants at a picnic situation. But thankfully I was able to knock those ants out of the frame using pesti.

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[Ben]

That's P E S-T-I-E.comhistory for an extra 10 percent off. Now, fellow ridiculous historians, as you may know, we recently returned from a just spectacular oceanfront resort, Baja mar over in

[Casey Pegram]

the Bahamas in Nassau. We know what you're thinking. Lucky us. Must be nice. Well, it was nice. You're not wrong. This was a real special experience for all three of us. Max was there too.

[Ben]

Yeah. Baja Mar. Get this is this just stunning oceanfront resort in Nassau, Bahamas. They've got multiple hotels. It's also, you know what I thought was really cool. It's family friendly and it's adult friendly,

[Noel]

if that makes sense.

[Casey Pegram]

Simultaneously, we had some phenomenal dinners. My personal favorite was at Marcus. Had a incredible dry aged ribeye there and these truffle whipped potatoes that were to die for.

[Ben]

Yeah, and there are water parks. The animal experiences are awesome.

[Casey Pegram]

I jumped off a false cliff.

[Ben]

So did Max. You can go to the Rosewood Hotel, the sls, and of course where we stayed, the stylishly modern Grand Hyatt. So don't delay. Plan your own getaway at Baja Mar.

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[Noel]

As Hong is reading this pamphlet, he's noticing a stunning similarity between the story of Christianity and his personal vision, the one he had thought and he had gotten over. He encounters the words of Jesus Christ and he becomes convinced. Hong becomes convinced that the father figure in his series of visions was the Christian God, like the God of Abraham, and that the older brother, because remember you mentioned that older brother Noel. The older brother was Jesus Christ himself and the king of hell was the serpent and in the Garden of Eden. And Hong is putting everything together like the very end of Usual suspects when spoiler alert 3, 2, 1. When the investigator starts looking at the bulletin board and notices that Keyser Soze has just been making up stories based on what he reads around the room. Bro, I did spoiler countdown. And plus, it's way past the statute.

[Casey Pegram]

You think so?

[Noel]

Yeah.

[Casey Pegram]

All right, that's fair. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to scold you.

[Noel]

I mean, it's fine.

[Casey Pegram]

You're totally fine.

[Noel]

Also, where do spoilers stop, man? Is it a spoiler to say that Abe Lincoln passes away or that the Titanic sinks?

[Casey Pegram]

Yeah, yeah, we're gonna get some angry emails about that one because I didn't. Spoiler alert. And it is a movie. It is, in fact, a movie. It's true.

[Noel]

So Hong is having this usual suspect moment as he's reading through this pamphlet, and he's like, wait, the father in my dream is God? The older brother in my dream, that's Jesus, the king of hell is this serpent from this story. Holy smokes. Put two and two together. I am the son of God.

[Casey Pegram]

It's like Darren Aronofsky trying to describe the plot of one of his movies.

[Noel]

Right, Right. So he doesn't take this revelation as a personal thing. He doesn't hold it close to his heart and use it as a way to keep his divine chin up. Instead, he tells his relatives about his dream, and his message begins to spread. He gets followers. He must have been very persuasive.

[Casey Pegram]

Well, he clearly was tenacious. He kept taking, you know, he didn't let a psych, a little bitty psychotic break stop him from trying to take those exams. So he clearly had drive. And, yeah, he had to have been very charismatic. And his message started spreading like wildfire. Cultile.

[Noel]

Right, Right. He gathers followers. They go on the road to evangel. They're selling ink and brushes to fund their travels. And Hong begins writing his own religious works. He writes exhortations to worship the one true God, and this helps him win more converts. He goes back home to work on more religious writing, but his disciples continue to travel, and they form a group known as the God Worshiping Society. There's an interesting sociological aspect here because a lot of his original followers are haka people, the ethnic group haka, just like he is, and they have a relatively lower position in Chinese society. So this is a message that paints a picture of an alternate way to live a world in which you do not have to be on the bottom just because of your ethnicity.

[Casey Pegram]

Which is interesting because sort of in the same way that L. Ron Hubbard founded a religion based on constantly being rejected by science fiction, you know, publishers and things like that.

[Noel]

Spoiler alert.

[Casey Pegram]

Out of. Well, that's fair, but out of kind of this bitterness and this. It shaped his whole worldview. And Hong was very similar. He rejected those, the Confucianist family ideals and the idea of having to be in that 1% of the 1% of society and pass those tests. And he built an entirely new philosophy that was, it wasn't Christianity exactly, it was sort of a twist on Christianity.

[Noel]

Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, you know, if you think about it, it's a proto version of Communism. He stresses sharing property. He has religious ideas and laws based on the ten commandments of Christianity. Importantly, he promises free land to all of his followers, really. And that's when thousands and thousands more people start joining up with Hong and the God worshiping society and they really

[Casey Pegram]

start to openly reject the Qing norms of that time. They chop off their braids, they have this hairstyle called a Q, where you've probably seen it in films where their head is shaved, except they have one big long ponytail that's in the back. They cut those off. He. They start wearing these red turbans as a symbol of their undying allegiance to Hong. And he even starts preaching this notion that the Manchu were the very demons that he fought in his battle with the King of Hell.

[Noel]

Yeah, yeah. So this is during the Qing Dynasty, right? And the Qing Dynasty was founded by the Manchu people and they are still regarded as foreigners at this time. You know what I mean? And the Haka, with valid reason, don't care very much for the Manchu.

[Casey Pegram]

Did we mention that the Haka were kind of already a bit of a disenfranchised community? Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's key because he was able to capitalize on those feelings of rejection and isolation and not being part of the same caste system that he was rejected from.

[Noel]

And then when he has the revelation that the demons in his vision are the Manchu, you know, he begins, as you said, pushing people to violence. And this marks the beginning of one of the bloodiest civil wars in Chinese history. Within two years, Hong and the God worshiping society have captured the city of Nanjing. There is a rebellion taking place, folks. Hundreds of thousands of people are overthrowing the social status quo.

[Casey Pegram]

Yeah, here's the thing too. Hong really starts doubling down with his speaking with God kind of angle where he believes that he has been sent by God as the Son of God because he is a son of God. He's not Jesus. He's his other son.

[Noel]

He's the younger brother.

[Casey Pegram]

He's the younger brother of Jes and he is here to change the very course and nature of Chinese society based on the word of God and what he wants. So all of. In his society, all of the. His little kind of sub offshoot society, all of the beliefs of the Chinese, all of the Confucian texts are burned. All those beliefs are scattered and rejected. Got rid of every single idol or effigy or anything that represented the old way. Right. And even he outlawed opium because that had been a problem.

[Noel]

Good move.

[Casey Pegram]

Yeah, that was probably one of his good moves. And heavily segregated men and women.

[Noel]

Officially.

[Casey Pegram]

Officially, but not for him.

[Noel]

No, not for him.

[Casey Pegram]

He had something of a harem in his abode.

[Noel]

Very, very common with cult leaders. You know what I mean? From L. Ron Hubbard and the Sea Org to David Koresh, usually cult leaders have a do as I say, not as I do sort of approach to their beliefs and laws. Doesn't he also change the calendar?

[Casey Pegram]

He does. He changes the calendar.

[Noel]

Dude, that's such a power move.

[Casey Pegram]

It's a big power move.

[Noel]

I love that. It's like, all right, I'm in charge now. April is done. Now we're calling it. Hey, Casey.

[Guest or Additional Speaker]

I knew you were gonna call me, but I have nothing. I have nothing to offer on this.

[Casey Pegram]

Oh, sorry.

[Noel]

I know. Okay. You'd rather be on the case than on the spot, right? Okay, so we'll say instead of April, we're gonna call it Lowell, right?

[Casey Pegram]

Sure.

[Noel]

The month of Lowell.

[Casey Pegram]

Yeah. Or how about Gr. April?

[Noel]

Ooh, yeah. Gr. April.

[Casey Pegram]

Yeah.

[Noel]

Or Aprilist.

[Casey Pegram]

I like that. I like that.

[Noel]

So, okay. Yeah, I don't mean to. Also, Casey, on the case. Thank you. I don't mean to diminish the suffering that Hong is becoming responsible for. What we see happening now is that the Qing dynasty notices that society is quickly crumbling.

[Casey Pegram]

Dude. In the city of Nanjing, he has amassed an army and in addition to all of his followers, but a real legitimate army that can expand this kingdom that he's creating all over southern China and ends up with more than 30 million people living inside his little sub kingdom called the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom, which is what they referred to their new territory as. And this is a real threat to the powers that be. I mean, this is huge, and they will not let this stand.

[Noel]

Right, Absolutely. We should also mention, though he did segregate the sexes for his followers, he took some steps to try to make women more socially equal to men. So it wasn't all terrible stuff. But, yes, war was very much on the horizon. The Qing emperor says, I have to raise troops. This may become an existential conflict. And it does. It becomes one of the most deadly conflicts in history. So by 1860, Hong's people, the Taiping, were at the height of their power. They were smashing Qing armies that were besieging Nanjing and they were capturing other southern cities. Hangzhou, Suzhou. In 1861, the same year that the US Civil War starts, the Taiping attack, Shanghai. But Shanghai has been this international hub, right. This is where the Western powers go and they send their boats and they trade their stuff. And that means that the British and French empires are not happy to see this fall to a cult movement. And the Europeans begin to bring in their own forces to protect the city.

[Casey Pegram]

Got a question for you, Ben. That distinction between religion and cult or movements and cults, I think 30 million, it sort of kicks it out of cult territory and it becomes more like a new norm. Yeah, but again, what are we talking population wise in the country?

[Noel]

Just for a rough ballpark perspective, calculations estimates put the population of China or the Qing Empire at this time around just under 300 million.

[Casey Pegram]

Got it. So no small potatoes. 30 million, but still certainly not taking hold in a widespread way.

[Noel]

I don't know, man. That's 30 million.

[Casey Pegram]

Oh, it's definitely dangerous. And they're all holed up. Or a bunch of them are holed up in this one area and are kicking ass.

[Noel]

Yeah. And the European troops arrive to help

[Casey Pegram]

out their, I don't know, buddies. The relationship is probably a little strained, but it's more to defend their port. Right?

[Noel]

Right. Absolutely. The opium must flow.

[Ben]

You know, guys, we live in the beautiful southeastern part of the United States. And every time spring comes, we get

[Noel]

a lot of pollen, we get a lot of flowers, we get a lot of bugs.

[Casey Pegram]

We do. And it gets a little hot and humid out there. And so you do end up having bugs kind of seeking cooler climbs and then often involves climbing under your door. In my case, it was an ants at a picnic situation. But thankfully I was able to knock those ants out of the frame using Pesti.

[Ben]

Other pest control companies, they're going to charge you hundreds of bucks. But with Pesti, we're talking about getting started at just $35.

[Casey Pegram]

A treatment and a customized plan to boot. Based on your location, bugs and climate, Pesti gets rid of over 100 different types of bugs, from spiders to the aforementioned ants to roaches and scorpions. Keep the bugs away with Pesti, go to pesti.comhistory for an extra 10% off your order.

[Ben]

That's P-E-S-T-I-E.comhistory for an extra 10 percent off. Now, fellow ridiculous historians, as you may know, we recently returned from a just spectacular oceanfront resort, Baja Mar, over in

[Casey Pegram]

the Bahamas in Nassau. We know what you're thinking. Lucky us. Must be nice. Well, it was nice. You're not wrong. This was a real special experience for all three of us. Max was there too.

[Ben]

Yeah, Baja Mar, get this. Is this just stunning oceanfront resort in Nassau, Bahamas. They've got multiple hotels. It's also, you know what I thought was really cool? It's family friendly and it's adult friendly,

[Noel]

if that makes sense.

[Casey Pegram]

Simultaneously, we had some phenomenal dinners. My personal favorite was at Marcus. Had an incredible dry aged ribeye there and these truffle whipped potatoes that were to die for.

[Ben]

Yeah, and there are water parks. The animal experiences are awesome.

[Casey Pegram]

I jumped off a false cliff.

[Ben]

So did Max. You can go to the Rosewood Hotel, the sls, and of course where we stayed, the stylishly modern Grand Hyatt. So don't delay. Plan your own [e-mail] craven bold, authentic

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[Noel]

the Europeans come with the latest word, the bleeding edge of military technology. And and they use cannon fire to just tear through the Taiping rebels. The Qing launches a major counterattack and this occurs at the same time. This shatters the Taiping army and they retreat from the city. They are forced onto the defensive. And now the Qing dynasty is receiving support from the West. They begin pushing the borders of the Heavenly Kingdom back to Nanjing. And they're fighting. Think of it this way, they're fighting what's called a total war in one of the most densely populated areas of the planet. Around this time, the country of China alone is like 30% of the world's population. It's a crowded place and a total war means that everything is up, up for grabs and everything that can be destroyed probably will.

[Casey Pegram]

Yeah. And there's no real rules of engagement or anything like that. I mean, civilians are at risk, utterly at risk, not just being in harm's way, but resources, plundering of villages from the opposition. When they sack a town or whatever, they just take what they want and food becomes scarce. People actually begin to starve to death in the streets. So I think we are talking about millions of people that died brutally.

[Noel]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. The violence combined with the famine led to millions of deaths. If this were a film, let's cut to Hong. Hong is becoming increasingly yogurt. He has withdrawn from running his kingdom, doing the day to day affairs, directing the armies, rallying the troops. Instead, he hangs out in his palace with his harem, with his concubines. His generals begin to fill the vacuum of power and this leads to a lot of internal conflict and fracturing of the kingdom. Hong begins to, you know, suspect members of his inner circle of being traitors. And he has very valid reasons for this. By 1864, the Qing armies are at the gates of the city and Hong's general, a guy named Li Hsiucheng, demands that Hong gtfo right, get out of the city.

[Casey Pegram]

And now they've been forced into retreat and they're holed up behind walls. They've run out of food as well. So what does Hong do? He says we're just gonna drink tears from heaven, eat mana from heaven mana, that's magical energy juice from the final Fantas games, I think. But no, he says, and what he was referring to were he basically said that God will nourish us with whatever we put into our bodies. This is the craziest part. So crazy it almost seems made up. But he plucks this. What does he do? He plucks a weed from the ground and eats it as a sign that, see, I'm on board with you. I'm just like you guys. And it turns out to be deadly poison and he dies.

[Noel]

Yeah, yep, just a fluke.

[Casey Pegram]

Totally you know, oh, good God. And then his teenage son kind of steps in, replaces him. But it's too late. The Qing are at the gates, like we said. They eventually kick down the doors. Bloodbath ensues. Night Night, Kingdom of Heaven.

[Noel]

And the Taiping Rebellion is put down. Estimates vary widely depending on which historical sources you encounter. You will see the estimate of the death toll here ringing in at anywhere between 20 to 70 million people. That makes it one of the deadliest conflicts in human history. And it shaped China, and therefore the world in ways that carry over even today, in 2019. All because one guy had a vision. You know, what if he had passed his exams? You always have to wonder. It's kind of like, what if Hitler got accepted into art school?

[Casey Pegram]

Yeah, I don't know, man. It's true. I mean, I think it's the repeated rejection that really caused him to break. But you got to wonder, too. Something was off in this guy. He would have done some weird stuff

[Noel]

either way, I think. And you have to wonder about the country as well. If not him, would some other kind of event have occurred? You know what I mean?

[Casey Pegram]

Yeah. It's true. Because the history of China is largely a series of peasant uprisings, as is the case for many histories, like the French Revolution, the American Revolution. It's all about rising up against the oppressor, perceived or otherwise. And the dynasty system was so entrenched culturally that it was immovable. And so it makes sense that like. But what's so funny, Ben, though, is what ends up happening is you. You knock down a dynasty, and then you replace it with your own dynasty, and you become the same thing that you hated and were fighting against in the first place.

[Noel]

Absolutely.

[Casey Pegram]

It happens every time.

[Noel]

Maybe one time it'll be different. Probably not. Okay, probably not.

[Casey Pegram]

I look forward to it.

[Noel]

I'm not holding my breath. So history tells us that the world is rife, the world is overflowing with would be messiahs. We are lousy with people who suspect that they have divine right to one thing or another. And the modern age is no different. It's easy for us to say, wow, that sounds crazy. What the heck was going on in the 1800s. But you have to realize in 2019, there are plenty of groups in the United States, in your home country, in your neck of the global woods. I guarantee you there is someone right now who believes that they are either God or the avatar of God or the younger brother of a divine figure.

[Casey Pegram]

Yeah, first cousin, whatever. Sure, yeah, why not, man? Somebody's got to Be more power to you. Just try not to, you know, foment any bloody uprisings.

[Noel]

Yeah. Do your best.

[Casey Pegram]

Do your best.

[Noel]

Do your best.

[Casey Pegram]

Be a good citizen.

[Noel]

This was such a crazy story. It's a story that a lot of Westerners are not familiar with.

[Casey Pegram]

And how insane is it that a story involving the death of 20 to 70 million human beings that took place over 15 years at the hands of a psychotic Christian death cult leader? Not really a death cult, but certainly. I mean, we stand by the whole cult thing. How crazy is it that we don't know about that? They don't teach that in history class. I don't know. Know, it's. It's. It's interesting.

[Noel]

It sounds weird because we do host a history show, but a lot of stuff happens. Yeah, I don't know, Casey, I. I'm not going to put you on the spot here. I just want to know, had you ever heard of this story?

[Guest or Additional Speaker]

No. This is like all completely new to me and my mind is thoroughly blown.

[Casey Pegram]

Absolutely. Yeah. Bonkers. And how has there not been a film of this as well? Seems very good film fodder.

[Ryan Reynolds]

When you.

[Guest or Additional Speaker]

Yeah, when you first mentioned it, I was thinking of Scorsese's silence, which is also concerns Christianity in Japan.

[Casey Pegram]

That's right. And.

[Guest or Additional Speaker]

And it's kind of somebody also having maybe a little bit of a savior complex or something, but different era, different country, different culture. Very different. But, you know, kind of brought that to mind.

[Casey Pegram]

Yeah, very much so. Well, I don't know. I think. I think the story speaks for itself. I think we've said it all, so I think it's time to wrap it up and what do you say?

[Noel]

I know I never want a cold story to end, but. Yeah, I guess. I guess I gotta.

[Casey Pegram]

All good cult things must come to an end, Ben.

[Noel]

I know, I know. And you know, when you've started as many as I have, eventually you want it to feel fresh.

[Casey Pegram]

Wait, I thought you said that was in another life.

[Noel]

Totally. So thanks to Christopher Haciotes. Thanks to our super producer, Casey Pegram.

[Casey Pegram]

Thanks to research associate and pal Gabe Luzier. Thanks to Alex Williams, who composed our theme.

[Noel]

Thanks to you, Noel. Thanks to you listeners for giving this episode a spin. If the spirit so moves you, why not drop by your podcast platform of choice and toss us a rating or review?

[Casey Pegram]

Yeah, we'd really appreciate it. You can also join us on our Facebook fan page or community page, whatever you want to call it, which is ridiculous. Historians, we are on the usual platforms, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram. You can also Follow me personally on Instagram at Embryonic Insider and you can

[Noel]

find me on Instagram as well. I am Bolan. So let us, let us know about the local movements, communes, or dare we say cults in your neck of the global woods. Do you think these groups are innocuous? Do you think they are malevolent? If so, why? Or why not? And I'm especially interested to hear stories of local cults that most people outside of the area don't know about.

[Casey Pegram]

Yeah, like Zendig Farms.

[Noel]

Yeah, hey, yeah, Zendig Farms. There are a ton in Florida just to the south of us. Very strange ones too. But yeah, let us know.

[Casey Pegram]

We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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This is Sophia Donner from OK Storytime this summer. Find your next obsession on Prime Video and listen. We're not saying you need another obsession, but there could be a lot worse ones. Steamy romance, addictive love stories and the book to screen favorites you've already read twice. So why not watch them a third time off campus? Elle the Love Hypothesis and more Slow Burns Second Chances chemistry you can feel through the screen and it makes you wish you were actually in that movie. We've got binge worthy series can't miss movies. Perfect for when you're ignoring your own problems or procrastinating as one does. Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime.

[Casey Pegram]

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