Eurovision, Chapter Two: Pop Music as Problematic Diplomacy

Summary

Ridiculous History – Eurovision, Chapter Two: Pop Music as Problematic Diplomacy

Podcast: Ridiculous History (iHeartPodcasts)
Episode Date: April 16, 2026
Hosts: Ben Bowlin, Noel Brown, Max Williams

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Episode Overview

In this second chapter on the subject of Eurovision, hosts Ben, Noel, and Max dig deep into how the world's biggest song contest has served as a platform for both diplomacy and controversy. While Eurovision was conceived as a unifying, international stage for music, it has naturally absorbed—and broadcast—fractious politics, cultural rivalries, and even outright diplomatic incidents. The conversation covers Eurovision’s unique voting system, how nation branding and soft diplomacy play out through music, and a litany of political and cultural flashpoints, including recent controversies surrounding Russia, Ukraine, Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Israel’s role in the contest. They close things off with a salute to the history’s weirdest Eurovision acts.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Voting System: Spaghetti, Calzones, and Cookies

Timestamp 04:03–08:42

• Eurovision’s voting is a unique blend of professional juries (music industry insiders from each country) and the general public.
  • Jurors cannot vote for their own country—rooted in rules dating back to a “conspiracy of 1956.”
  • Each jury creates a Top 10 and can award up to 12 points to their top pick.
  • The public vote is equally important and is now global thanks to the official Eurovision app (and some privacy concerns).
• Ben likens the system to “a messy bowl of spaghetti … a big batch of weird cookie dough … [or] an overstuffed calzone.”
• Winning requires broad appeal: “You have to be able to appeal to the professional juries and then you have to get the public on your side.” (Ben, 08:43)
• The system creates drama on the scoreboard—upsets are common as points from different sources arrive.

“Just like the electoral college or the electoral vote versus the popular vote in US Politics, you don't have to win both of them to be the winner.” (Ben, 08:43)

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Manufactured Pop and the Scandinavian Hit Factory

Timestamp 09:29–10:11

• The hosts discuss the ‘pop factory’ in Scandinavia, especially Sweden, where Max Martin and other songwriters construct hits with clinical precision.
  • Pop hits are “divided down into their component parts in order to weaponize psychology against you.” (Noel, 09:29)

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Eurovision as Cultural Diplomacy (Soft Power)

Timestamp 13:48–15:27; 17:29–18:28

• The hosts introduce the concept of Eurovision as a platform for “soft diplomacy,” referencing food as another example (exporting Thai cuisine).
  • Nations use Eurovision to influence perceptions through music rather than explicit political messaging.
  • “It's really hard to wrap your head around the politics of other countries … But music we can all kind of get behind.” (Noel, 18:30)
  • Instead of dry policy details, a three-minute pop song (“Latvia Makes Bread”) can carry cultural meaning and connect audiences (Ben & Noel, 18:42–19:14).

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Eurovision as a Proxy for Geopolitical Tensions

Timestamp 19:14–24:03

• The contest often becomes a “venue for geopolitical tensions.” Examples include:
  • Voting blocs or countries refusing to support each other due to political beefs.
  • During the Cold War, USSR-controlled countries formed a rival contest, “Intervision Song Contest,” as a socialist alternative to Eurovision (20:27–21:49).
  • After the fall of the Berlin Wall, former Soviet states quickly joined Eurovision as a step toward Western integration—often easier than joining NATO.

“Propaganda can ultimately be more effective than things like NATO … and how this branding, kind of these branding plays, can really make more of a lasting impact than even how you vote in the UN.” (Noel, 23:05)

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Controversies: When Politics and Pop Collide

Timestamp 24:03–41:44

Three Main Categories of Controversy:

1. Political Tensions Impacting Voting
   • Countries that “hell or high water will not vote for each other ever, at all.” (Ben, 24:04)
2. Disqualified Songs for Political References
   • Examples of American analogues, e.g., Sinead O’Connor on SNL, Rage Against the Machine (25:33–26:19).
   • Songs like Georgia’s “We Don’t Want to Put In (Putin)” after the Russo-Georgian War were rejected (30:31–31:21).
3. Demonstrations, Boycotts, and Protests
   • Nations and fans staging boycotts, or calling for exclusion (e.g., Israel’s participation).

Specific Flashpoints:

• Armenia vs. Azerbaijan (2009):
  • Azerbaijanis who voted for Armenia’s entry were visited by law enforcement as a warning (27:01–27:53).
  • “Imagine the police knocking on your door because you voted wrong in America's Got Talent.” (Ben, 27:53)
• Russia–Ukraine Tensions:
  • Ukraine 2016: Won with “1944,” referencing Crimea’s history—seen as an anti-Russia statement (28:59–30:27).
  • Georgia’s cheeky Putin reference disqualified.
• Olympics Parallels:
  • Crossover controversies in other competitions, e.g., bobsledder displaying images of Ukrainian victims (31:21–32:02).
  • “Somehow y’all are still better than FIFA. But only FIFA.” (Max, 32:05)

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Israel and the “Euro” in Eurovision

Timestamp 36:23–43:33

• Israel’s Participation:
  • First joined Eurovision in 1973 despite not being European, causing long-standing controversy.
  • Has competed continuously, won four times, and hosted thrice.
  • Issues with Israel’s participation center on political tensions (Israeli-Palestinian conflict, broader Middle Eastern geopolitics).
• Allegations of Rigging & Political Manipulation:
  • In 2025, Israel won the popular vote but got low jury points; prompted new auditing rules.
  • Suggestions of “state-sponsored” efforts—vote manipulation, heavy vote-getting campaigns.
  • Some fans and participants suspect technical shenanigans (“hacking”), but generally see “coercive voting” as more likely (Noel, 40:57; 42:39).
  • Example: In 2019, an Israeli webcast was hacked to display fake missile warnings, allegedly by Hamas (42:39–43:33).

“It’s hacking minds, it’s building relationships in a way that institutions like the United Nations or NATO simply cannot.” (Ben, 24:04)

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The Joy and Weirdness of Eurovision

Timestamp 43:33–49:51

• Hosts’ Favorite Songs/Acts:
  • “Every Way That I Can” by Sertab Erener (Turkey)
  • “Think About Things” by Daði Freyr (Iceland)
• Most Bizarre Performances:
  • Hard Rock Hallelujah by Lordi (Finland’s monster rockers, 2006)
  • DJ Bobo’s “Vampires Are Alive” (Switzerland, 2007) – involved mannequins onstage
  • Sebastien Tellier inhaled helium during his performance to hit high notes (France, 2008)
  • Dustin the Turkey (puppet act representing Ireland, 2008)
  • Russia’s 2012 entry with “babushki” (grannies) baking bread onstage
  • Moldova’s unicycle acts and Estonia’s “chaotic punk” (both get honorable mentions)

“This absurd aspect of Eurovision is almost as important as, say, having the best pop song or being the most polished act.” (Noel, 45:57)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Soft Diplomacy:

  “Nation branding … is a powerful thing. Why would someone read thousands of pages about Latvia's post Soviet agricultural policies? Why wouldn't you just tune in for a less than three minute song called ‘Latvia Makes Bread’?” (Ben, 18:42)

• On Politics at Eurovision:

  “It is not just international diplomacy at its finest. It is also international diplomacy at its weirdest, at its most ridiculous.” (Ben, 24:04)

• On Personal Experiences:

  “Once upon a time … when I was entering the United Kingdom … I accidentally called the passport control guy ‘your highness.’ … I didn't know what to do.” (Ben, 12:34)

• On Israel’s Controversial Role:

  “A lot of this controversy will hinge on … the Israeli Palestinian conflict, … and so at various times in the past, other countries have threatened to boycott Eurovision or they've called for the nation of Israel to be removed.” (Ben, 38:05)

• On the Essence of Eurovision:

  “On balance, Eurovision is ridiculous, but it is also a tremendously positive thing for the world overall.” (Ben, 42:39)

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Timestamped Highlights

• 04:03 – The voting system: public and professional juries, the max 12 points rule
• 09:29 – Scandinavian pop ‘hit factory’ (Max Martin et al.)
• 17:29 – Eurovision as soft power and cultural diplomacy
• 20:27 – Intervision Song Contest, the USSR’s alternative
• 24:04 – Types of controversies: politics, censorship, boycotts
• 27:01 – Armenia-Azerbaijan: voting–turned–police investigation
• 28:59 – Russia-Ukraine: “1944” and the politics of song lyrics
• 36:23 – Israel: Non-European participation and perennial lightning rod
• 40:47 – Allegations of “vote-rigging” and EBU’s rule changes
• 43:33 – Hacked Israeli webcast during Eurovision (fake missile warnings)
• 44:28 – Weirdest Eurovision songs and performances
• 45:57 – The importance of absurdity at Eurovision
• 47:10 – Standout acts: Dustin the Turkey; Russian grannies; Lordi
• 49:51 – Moldova on unicycles, Estonia punk chaos

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Closing Thoughts

The episode masterfully blends humor, personal anecdotes, and rigorous history to illustrate Eurovision’s kaleidoscopic blend of lighthearted spectacle and charged political meaning. The hosts make clear that while Eurovision is sometimes dismissed as a kitschy pop spectacle, it is a mirror of the continent’s deepest divisions and finest moments of cross-cultural connection.

“Eurovision is much more than a singing contest. At its core, it's an ongoing, if imperfect, experiment in soft diplomacy—international relationships made ridiculous and, frequently enough, beautiful.”

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Transcript

[A]

Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartradio. Welcome back to the show, fellow Ridiculous historians. Thank you as always, so much for tuning, tuning in. Let's hear it for the man, the myth, the. The guy beloved by professional juries and the public alike, Mr. Max Williams.

[B]

I'm loved by non professional juries too.

[A]

Yes. Yeah, that's Noel Brown wooing in the background. Thank you.

[C]

And I'm able to. I like to be wooed, you know.

[A]

Yes, to woo and to woo. My name is Ben Bollen. For tax purposes on this, are returning to our exploration of a little thing called Eurovision. Now, previously on Ridiculous History. The three of us delved deep into the origin story of a thing that has become an international phenomenon. But Noel, you and I were teasing this, the entirety of our first chapter. People do vote on Eurovision, even though it's a unifying thing, it is at heart a competition. So there has to be a winner and there can only be one.

[C]

Oh, Highlander rules. Ben. Which is also intensely European.

[A]

Yes. Cartoonishly so. Yeah, that's good.

[D]

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[A]

Eurovision has a unique system of voting that combines professional juries like the country representatives or the big to dos of the music industry, with viewers at home at this point. So if we are all watching Eurovision 2026 and the three of us have a big group text and we're going Estonia. No, Hungary. You know what I mean? We can cast our votes, we can make a voting bloc. It's so weird because each country that participates in Eurovision has their own in house jury of musical industry pros. And these folks award points to their favorite songs. But given the conspiracy of 1956, they are legally not allowed to vote for their own country. So like if you're Simon Cowell or whatever, isn't he the guy?

[C]

Simon Cowell is the mean British one. Yes. And then we've got Randy Jackson, who is not related to Michael Jackson, he is a slap of the bass guy who is sort of the mean American who tells people that he isn't feeling it.

[A]

Dog.

[C]

What does he say? That's a no from me. That's a no from me, dog. Yeah.

[A]

So those guys, hypothetically even being at the top of the music industry game, if they were part of a jury in Eurovision, they could not vote for their own country. So essentially what happens is this jury of boffins will make a top 10 list, a short list, and they will award points. The maximum amount of allowable points is 12 points. If you really, really love every way that I can, or if you really, really love, think about things, et cetera. So at the same time this is happening, the civilians are participating, the public is a big part of this Fans from around Europe and at this point, by the way, guys, pretty much anyone who has the app, you can vote for your favorite performance by phone, text or in. Of course, the official Eurovision app, which I do want to point out, is going to scrape a lot of data from your phone.

[C]

It's true. Any of those type of apps are going to have significant cookies. I do believe there are rules now where you are required to be a little more transparent about which cookies you accept or do not accept for sure. And the EU's always been ahead of the curve in terms of protection of privacy. So, yeah, not something that we have as much luck with over here. But I do believe, at least I've noticed that cookie acceptance is a little bit more transparent even here in the States.

[A]

Do you guys get that thing? It may depend on the browser you use, but do you get that pop up where it says, accept all cookies, reject all cookies, Customize your. Sometimes there's.

[C]

There's a third. Secret. Third thing or not secret. But I like to say that for whatever reason, where it's only relevant ones or only functional. Functional ones. Yeah, exactly.

[B]

I mean, I think we all mass reject all as soon as possible. At least I do.

[A]

Yeah. Of course I have cookies at home. Why do I want more on the Internet?

[C]

What's your favorite kind of cookie, Ben?

[A]

My favorite kind of cookie, Noel? That's a great question. I don't eat a lot of sweets. I'm sweet enough, I think.

[C]

That's for darn sure.

[A]

Thanks, guys. I would say. You know what I like? A good soft chocolate chip. What about you?

[C]

A good soft baked chocolate chip, Ben? I also enjoy a chocolate chip. Let's include some nuts of some kind, perhaps in that chocolate chip. And a little bit of sea salt.

[A]

Oh, there we go. All right.

[C]

What about you, Max? Maybe some brown butter, Max? Yeah, What's. What would it do?

[B]

Condition.

[A]

Condition.

[C]

Come on, man. Preconditioned. Favorite cookie.

[A]

Yeah, come on.

[B]

A hot, soft chocolate chip cookie is

[C]

just hot and soft. Talk dirty to me, Max.

[A]

Yeah. As you can tell, we are working on our pitch for the next Eurovision Song Contest, when we can participate because perhaps podcasts are a country of their own. Look, we know that the voting thing is a messy bowl of spaghetti. It's a big batch of weird cookie dough. If you are a winning.

[C]

It's an overstuffed calzone.

[A]

It's an overstuffed calzone. Just. So if you are a winning entry, then you have to be able to appeal to the professional juries and then you have to get the public on your side. But just like the electoral college or the electoral vote versus the popular vote, in US Politics, you don't have to win both of them to be. Be the main act to. To be the winner. And I get it. I got to ask you guys, do you remember. No. You and I have talked about this in the past. Do you remember when we discovered that there's maybe six people in Scandinavia who write most pop music hits?

[C]

Oh, of course. Yeah. I mean, we're talking about the hit factory sort of system over there. The most popular person associated with that is Max Martin. And he's got a whole team of crack Scandinavian songwriters, song smiths, producers that are basically dividing pop songs down into their component parts in order to weaponize psychology against you. Yes. You, the listener.

[A]

Yes. Couldn't have said it better. You nailed it. Folks, please check out stuff they don't want you to know. If Noel and I don't have an episode about that yet, we will have one soon.

[C]

It's a great idea, Ben.

[A]

It'd be weird if we hadn't gotten to that one yet. Okay, so look, we're the crew. We're watching Eurovision, the big night, the grand finale, and the points are being actively displayed. The scoreboard can flip at the drop of a hat. So you're going to see Max, name an obscure European country.

[C]

Sorry, I'm late to the party. Or at the drop of a beat.

[A]

Even better.

[C]

Please carry on.

[B]

Armenia.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh. Oh, that's foreshadowing. So, okay, you might see Armenia perform in the. In. In the big to do. And they may all of a sudden look like they're a shoe in. They're the winner. But then the next. The next act comes on Noel. What's another country that is not Armenia, but still in Europe?

[C]

Oh, boy. I don't know, man. That's like saying, name one woman. That's a joke. That was a joke. That was. That was a Billy on the street thing. He walks up to people. Billy, what's that guy? You know, that really intense dude he walks on to says, name one woman. And no, they can't do it. They can't do it. I am so bad at geography. Ben, you're putting me on the spot, but let's go with Chechnya.

[A]

There we go. Okay. All right.

[C]

That's still the thing. It is still a thing.

[A]

That. A bottom.

[C]

Thank goodness.

[A]

And I also. I also love that joke because, Max, I can't remember if you were there for this recording, but Noel and I had quite a time talking about how weird passport control and customs can be because of.

[C]

Oh, it psychs you out. Makes you feel a criminal all of a sudden.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Like, oh, is your birthday insert date here? And they're not looking for what you say, they're looking for your responses. So both of your faithful co hosts here definitely got some deer in the headlights moments, right? You remember that?

[C]

Oh, yeah, man. I mean, it's how you. It's not what you say, it's how you say it. And it's much like we discussed on a recent episode about IQ tests that test taking anxiety. It's a similar emotional response when all of a sudden you're like, under the gun. Everything you think you know about anything, even yourself, can just fly right out of your head.

[A]

Once upon a time, and this is a true story, and I trust all of us not to make fun of me about it too hard, but once upon a time, when I was entering the United Kingdom, I freaked when they were asking me very basic questions. But in, as you said, Noel, that quite direct way, I accidentally called the passport control guy, your highness. I didn't know what to do. I didn't know what to do. He was like. He was like, oh, so what's your business here? What's going on? I was like, ah, your highness. And I went, ah, sorry, I might

[C]

have dropped your lordship if I were in that situation, for sure.

[A]

It's a weird one, right? And speaking of more weird stuff, we have to understand that Eurovision is not about the best song, right? It is not about that. It is about stage presence, it's about seeming original. It's a little bit of rivalry. And that brings us to, again, the most broken of the main commandments of Eurovision. Being a political guys. We danced around it a little bit,

[C]

but we did a couple sidesteps. We did a shimmy or two.

[A]

We did, we did. We did an electric slide on a couple of these. Because this is, of course, chapter two. Noel, you and I and Max were talking off air. Eurovision is way more than this simple reality TV show and it is a platform of diplomacy.

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[C]

The Eurovision Song Contest, as it's known, can act as an incredibly powerful platform for public discourse, cultural diplomacy, and utilizing that soft power in order to put forth some very important nation branding. We talked recently about Thai food, for example, and the exporting of Thai food to the United States and other parts of the world. That's soft diplomacy. We talked about food being soft diplomacy and cuisine being soft diplomacy. This is no different. This can also be an important component in political alignment with other nations, as well as fostering cultural dialogues among other nations in Europe and neighboring countries. And since 1956, this whole deal has allowed nations to influence international perception of their culture through music, rather than through political talking points or policy. My friend, I think we both agree that is a powerful thing.

[A]

Oh, absolutely, my friend.

[C]

Cause it's really hard to wrap your head around the politics of other countries if you're not like one of the wonks or the boffins, as you like to say. But music we can all kind of get behind.

[A]

Yeah, most people are gonna feel the same way about an F sharp or an E flat, you know what I mean? It communicates bass words. And also to your excellent point there, Noel, why would someone read thousands of pages about Latvia's post Soviet agricultural policies? Why wouldn't you just tune in for a less than three minute song called Latvia Makes Bread?

[C]

I'll tell you, all I needed to know about Latvia was that I could tap my toe to the bread song.

[A]

There we go. Yeah. And we see when this works in theory, we do see a great geopolitical glue. We do see a great unifier. It also, however, acts as a platform or venue for geopolitical tensions. So there are going to be cases where two countries are beefing for one reason or another and they just don't like each other. And they're going to say, screw these guys. Nobody vote for them. Right. And they'll get the same in return. Eurovision during the Cold War is very interesting because it was unifying Western Europe, but Eastern Europe, under the control of the ussr, was excluded from the competition. So the Soviet bloc. That's what they call it, dude. They made their own thing. They looked at Coca Cola and said, we'll make Pepsi at home. They created something called the Intervision Song Contest. Not as cool. Feels like a little Also ran.

[C]

No, it does. For sure. You can't mess with the classic formula, as evidenced by Coke 2 new Coke, Crystal Pepsi.

[A]

We should do an episode on those as well.

[C]

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[A]

All right, we'll write it down. Also, the Intervision Song Contest from the Soviet bloc ran from a much shorter career. It ran from about 1965 to 1980 and it was billed as a socialist alternative to the corrupt capitalist practices of Eurovision. And they said, look, we are going to do our own show, right? We'll make a Pepsi to the Coke and we will not worry about you guys in Western Europe. So then we saw, for a few decades, we saw Eurovision and Intervision competing sort of in the same room, but not directly with one another.

[C]

Yeah, but as we can see here from the outline, Intervision only lasted from 1965 to 1980. So it would appear that the OG won out and that there indeed was. Could only be one.

[A]

At least, you know, ultimately, like you said, Highlander rules. Right. So this is different. This is a contrasting case to the Olympic Games, because Intervision and Eurovision did not pick their number one winner and then send those two folks to sing it out. There were only a few instances, pretty rare, where artists from the Soviet bloc appeared on Eurovision. That all changes in 1989. The Berlin Wall falls and shout out to everybody else who has a little relic of that. The USSR collapsed. And this means that many formerly Soviet states in Eastern Europe. What do they do, Noel? They don't hang with Intervision. They immediately joined the Eurovision Song contest in the 1990s. And doing so is way easier than joining something like NATO.

[C]

Yeah, man. NATO, huh? How's that thing going?

[A]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Tap the mic like a 1980s stand up NATO. Guys, it just.

[C]

I don't know, it just. The soft diplomacy stuff is such an interesting microcosm of larger political systems and how propaganda can ultimately be more effective than things like NATO and like the UN and governing bodies and like what we're seeing right now in the United States. Not to be, like, too political about it, but we're really just seeing so much actual international law is a matter of just folks deciding to play nice and follow the rules and how much more influential some of this soft diplomacy stuff can be. And how this branding, kind of these branding plays can really make more of a lasting impact than even how you vote in the UN or resolutions or even sanctions.

[A]

Yeah, 100%. I think what we're all saying here is.

[C]

Does that make sense?

[A]

Yeah, it does. It's well put. What we're all saying here is, while Eurovision is a lot of fun, it's hacking minds, it's building relationships in a way that institutions like the United nations or NATO simply cannot. This is much more than a singing contest. It is not just international diplomacy at its finest. It is also international diplomacy at its weirdest, at its most ridiculous. And that means, naturally, Eurovision is no stranger to controversy. And Noel, you, Max and I were talking about this a little bit off air. This is part of why we made this a two part series. Eurovision has, despite its noble intent and its grand ambition, been embroiled in so much controversy. We could sum it up in three rough categories. Maybe we step through those political tensions between competing countries that hell or high water will not vote for each other ever, at all. Not even if the song is clearly the best song. And the second controversy is going to be entries or songs being disqualified due to political references in song lyrics. Just for an example.

[C]

Well, you know, Ben, I don't mean to interrupt, we're going to get to the examples real quick, but we're no stranger to that over here in the United States. We've certainly seen artists banned from, say, Saturday Night Live for Life, for Shout out to Rage. Shout out to Rage for having an upside down American flag. I believe that they were told not to do. And I also believe they switched songs the last minute shout out to Elvis Costello, who did the song Radio Radio, which is a total indictment of the broadcast system and the idea of artists and performers being kind of slaves to these corporate interests. And of course, shout out to Sinead o' Connor for tearing up a photograph of the Pope on live television on stage.

[A]

Fight the real enemy.

[C]

Fight the real enemy. So, you know, this is not an exclusively European phenomenon. This is something that, you know, when you're dealing with these live performances, politics can definitely make things a little bit messy and make things a little bit difficult for, say, the network, in this case, for the competition.

[A]

Yeah. And our third category of controversy here would be demonstrations, boycotts, protests against certain countries. People are saying, don't let this country compete because of their politics and their policies, which we're going to talk about

[C]

probably the most extreme version of that that's happening right now.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. As we build up to that, let's mention the ongoing conflict between Armenia, Azerbaijan. These folks get beefed up so often in Eurovision. They both entered in the late 2000s, but in 2009, get this, there were people in Azerbaijan, civilians, not military, not professional judges or whatever, just regular people watching the show. And they vibed with Armenia's song and they voted for it. And then later they were visited by law enforcement. They got a heard you voted wrong. Imagine the police knocking on your door because you voted wrong. And America's Got Talent.

[C]

Well, and that is, not to put too fine a point on it, the kind of stuff that it's easy to take for granted and that we've talked about the slippery slope of some of the things going on here again in this country that one day some Facebook post you liked or some thing you've voted for or poll you took could come back to haunt you if things were to change and certain positions are made retroactively illegal.

[A]

Right? Yeah. The retroactive illegality is a big concern of mine and hopefully for everybody as well. I mean, we also know there are some.

[C]

Illegal is also such a broad term, it might not even be considered illegal. It's just at this point point, the law doesn't matter. If you have a leader or a despot that has so much power and has so much influence over law enforcement, the law doesn't even matter. It's just this person doesn't like you and doesn't like your opinion and they're going to come find you and make sure that you're on a list. And then we know where that can go.

[A]

Exactly. And we also know there are several elephants in the room of Eurovision controversy. One of the the biggest is obviously going to be Russia and Ukraine. Now, originally, pre2014, these nations peacefully participated in co competition of Eurovision. We're all having fun. But then Russia invaded and annexed Crimea. In 2014, the war in Donbass popped off and in 2016, Ukraine won Eurovision with a song called 1944. The lyrics were talking about the deportation of Tartars people in Crimea. And because of the events in Crimea occurring at the time, pretty much everybody said, hey, this is not apolitical. You guys know what you're talking about. Everybody knows what you're talking about. This is a statement against the nation of Russia. However, the boffins, the judges, most importantly the producers and showrunners got together and they said, look, you can compete because this song is about history. And the Russian delegation said, no, screw you guys.

[C]

Also, whose history and which history and which version of history?

[A]

History. Right. Yeah. Just so, I mean, we know that the country of Georgia, not the state, the country of Georgia had gotten trouble with Russia as well, because after the Russo Georgian War, Georgia came out with a song called We Don't Want To Put In.

[C]

We Don't Want to Put In Putin on the Ritz.

[A]

Yeah. And the European Broadcasting Union objectively objected to this. And they said, look, you guys are clearly doing a sneaky little pun. And you are criticizing Vladimir Putin. We're not dumb, you guys. We're still very plugged in and cool. We get it. And you shouldn't do it.

[C]

Yeah, we're seeing some controversies like that, or we did see some controversies like that, at least in terms of these more low key kind of protests in the recent Winter Olympics, specifically surrounding Palestine and Israel. And I think there was a bobsledder that wore. Yeah, Max has got the facts on this one. Wore on his helmet some sort of card with names of folks who were killed.

[B]

It was a Ukrainian bobsledder, I believe, who had photos of people who had been killed in the Russian invasion.

[C]

So sorry, it wasn't. Wasn't a Palestine thing. It was a Ukraine thing. So even more.

[B]

And he was not allowed to compete with it on there. And I don't know.

[C]

But he did it in anyway.

[B]

Well, no, he wasn't allowed to compete. He wore it.

[C]

Oh, got it.

[B]

And he wore it in practice and told him, you have to take that. You can't wear that. You have to wear something. Confirms the whole apolitical stance. And I remember hearing the president of the IOC say her statement. And to get a little on my own soapbox here, I said, somehow y' all are still better than FIFA. But only FIFA.

[C]

Only FIFA.

[A]

We're still holding it out for that FIFA peace prize, which will be the first awarded to a podcast. And let's make it happen. That was Max with the facts. Who's that sneaking in the phone? It's Max, and he's full of knowledge. Just for you right now. Here he comes. It's Max with the facts. Guys, we live in the beautiful southeastern part of the United States. And every time spring comes, we get a lot of pollen, we get a lot of flowers, we get a lot of bugs.

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[A]

Now, fellow ridiculous historians, as you may know, we recently returned from a just spectacular oceanfront resort, Baja Mar, over in

[C]

the Bahamas in Nassau. We know what you're thinking. Lucky us. Must be nice. Well, it was nice. You're not right. Wrong. This was a real special experience for all three of us. Max was there too.

[A]

Yeah, Baja Mar. Get this is this just stunning oceanfront resort in Nassau, Bahamas. They've got multiple hotels. It's also, you know what I thought was really cool? It's family friendly and it's adult friendly, if that makes sense.

[C]

Simultaneously, we had some phenomenal dinners. My personal favorite was at Marcus. Had an incredible dry aged ribeye there. And these truffle whipped potatoes that were to die for.

[A]

Yeah, and there are water parks. The animal experiences are awesome.

[C]

I jumped off a false cliff.

[A]

So did Max. You can go to the Rosewood Hotel, the sls, and of course, where we stayed, the stylishly modern Grand Hyatt. So don't delay. Plan your own getaway at Baja Model. Now we have to get to one of the biggest controversies in all of Eurovision, and this is something that is very sensitive to a lot of people. We're going to be responsible about it. If you look at Eurovision and you just hear the name, you would be reasonable in assuming that Eurovision is. Is a contest for European countries. That is not always the case. There is a very well known non European country regularly participating in Eurovision and that country is the Middle Eastern nation, Israel.

[C]

Israel first competed in the contest in 1973, becoming the first country from outside of Europe, or the eu, as it's known today, to enter. Its participation in the contest over the years has at times raised significant controversy, as have other actions that Israel have taken. They've always been a very dicey kind of political hot button issue, especially. Well, not especially, but certainly here in the United States, in no small part because of our super cozy relationship with them and some of the nasty goings on that they get into from time to time.

[A]

Yeah, a lot of this controversy will hinge on other countries participating in Eurovision and they'll raise concerns. They'll say, what about the conflict in that region of the world, the Israeli Palestinian conflict? What about the wider Israeli Arab conflict in that region? And so at various times in the past, other countries have threatened to boycott Eurovision or they've called for the nation of Israel to be removed from participating. Despite all that, this country, which again is in the Middle east, not in Europe, has remained a regular competitor since 1973. The nation of Israel has not only won Eurovision four times, but has also hosted it thrice, for sure.

[C]

And if you can imagine, a lot of people have a lot of thoughts and feelings and opinions about what's going on with Israel right now in terms of their treatment of folks in Palestine and in terms of their actions against Iran that we here in the United States seem to have gotten more or less fully on board with. And that has trickled and filtered into how they are being looked at and treated in the Eurovision competition. Again, to that soft diplomacy or that kind of political microcosm of it all. It really is an interesting signifier of how the greater European world is looking at. At these conflicts.

[A]

Oh, yeah, 100% in 2025. Just last year, as we record, the nation of Israel took the top spot in the public vote, but they got a low score from the jury. So their popular vote Was great. Their electoral college vote, if we could call it that, not so much. As a result, the European Broadcasting Union introduced rules for stricter auditing, lower public vote counts, and then they put tighter restrictions on what they portrayed as state sponsored promotion. So what the EBU was essentially saying last year is that they were polite, they were diplomatic and circumspect about it, but they clearly thought that on some state sponsored level, the nation of Israel was rigging the vote.

[C]

For sure.

[A]

But just like with a lot of propaganda, not like forcing people to vote, but encouraging them to only vote for their country propaganda.

[C]

And you gotta wonder too, are we talking like hackery? Are we talking about. I mean, I do seem to recall I was gonna mention some dear friends of mine in Berlin who are kind of the ones that really hipped me to how massive the whole Eurovision thing is over there. Like, they have parties and it's just like. It's like a seasonal, you know, like literally like a social event of the season. They seem to think, and these are folks who are in tech, that there may well have been some, you know, shenanigans. Shenanigans at play in terms of rigging the vote, for. Rigging the vote for Israel. Because, of course, these things all involve using apps, you know, using prayer, perhaps, phone numbers that you can call. And there are ways to spoof these kinds of things.

[A]

Yeah, this is a standing concern for a lot of Eurovision fans in Western Europe, to be honest, and across the world, because, look, Eurovision may be for primarily European countries to participate, but the world is watching. People love watching Eurovision and everybody wants the competition to at least, least feel fair. We know that controversies will surely crop up in the future because Eurovision will continue. It is so amazing to watch. It has got to be a wild ride to participate in it. And it's also a key piece of diplomacy at this point. I think it's fair to say that on balance, Eurovision is ridiculous, but it is also a tremendously positive thing for the world overall. Is that safe to say?

[C]

I think it is too, Ben. And I just wanna walk back what I said, just briefly. I don't know that we have evidence of hacking in terms of. It is more, like you said, Ben, a concerted effort to do sort of like vote manipulations or kind of coercive voting. But there was an instance back in 2019 where an Israeli webcast of the first Eurovision semifinal was hacked to show faked explosions in Tel Aviv. The Israeli national broadcaster Khan, blamed Hamas for the interruption, though the Palestinian group didn't comment The TV broadcast at large was not affected, but viewers tuning into the Khan webcast saw the warning risk of missile attack. Please take shelter under a fake logo of the Israeli army and the sound of rocket warnings, sirens.

[A]

Dirty stuff. Why can't we just have one nice thing? Why can't we just see silly songs being sung by people, man? So it goes deep. Learn more about the concept of soft diplomacy. We talked off Mike and Max, Noel and I couldn't leave you without one last, last digestif. We have to share some of our favorite, weirdest Eurovision songs ever. Because, again, this thing started in 1956. Aside from COVID it kept going all the way up to the modern day. I gotta tell you, Noel, two of my favorite Eurovision songs ever are Every Way that I Can by sirtab Eraner and Think About Things by Dottie V.

[C]

That is my guy, Daddy Fryer. Got to see him perform here in Atlanta at the Variety Playhouse. He had a giant inflatable of his head on stage. Cause of course he did. Of course he did. And he's. I don't know. His videos are just as delightful. That one you're talking about Ben. I think they're all wearing like weird sweaters in the video. And then he's got some that they're just like weird little After Effects clones of himself and just really delightful stuff. Real tall, lanky dude. Very into electronic music, kind of techno, but it's sort of comedy music. But it's also just good. Like, I would.

[A]

Not a lot of heart to him,

[C]

really a lot of heart. And he just seems like a lovely guy. And he actually just moved to Berlin, which is my favorite city in the EU and makes a whole lot of sense because that is sort of the heart, the beating, the four on the floor beating heart of the electronic music world.

[A]

Berlin is your favorite city out of that whole pseudo continent. Yeah, I love it.

[C]

I just have really good friends there and I just love the history of the music scene and a lot of the stuff that I'm into and I just dig the vibe there, there. It's cool.

[A]

Nice. We also want to shout out the weirdest Eurovision performances. Things like Finland's monster rock band. Lordy. So if you are a fellow theatric rock nerd, you might recall bands like Gwar, Lordy, L O R D I. They have a song called Hard Rock Hallelujah. Check it out. It's exactly what you're thinking about.

[C]

It sure is. And I also want to pull a couple of fun ones from an article the Guardian put out Called Vampires, Naked Apes and free the 20 wildest Eurovision performances ever. Because this absurd aspect of Eurovision is almost as important as, say, having the best pop song or being the most polished act. Vampires are alive Switzerland 20082007 vampires are alive in Helsinki, they say, beginning the surreal Swiss pop entry, which occasionally veered into Pirates of Penzance territory. It was especially odd because despite the subject matter, neither DJ Bobo nor his crew resembled vampires, as Eurovision rules stipulate that you can't have more than six performers on stage. Whoa, that still holds. A row of mannequins were added at the back to make the stage look busier. The result? A band of not vampires lost in the pants department of a Marks and Spencer. That must be a British reference that I do not get and I am reading from this article directly. One more that I thought was fun was helium to the rescue. If you're unsure whether you're going to hit the high note at Eurovision, you can always take a leaf out of Sebastien Tellier's book. By the way, adore Sebastien Tellier. This guy's a serious electronic artist from France who does really gorgeous kind of loungey type music. But he arrived on stage driven in a golf buggy and inhaled a helium balloon mid performance, thereby raising his voice a couple octaves. Tell ended up coming in 19th in that year's final.

[A]

And let us not forget Dustin the Turkey representing Ireland 2008. We're going to play one real quick clip and it counts as fair use. So again, Turkey's Ireland. Dustin puppets. Do you see it? Do you see the puppet?

[C]

I sure do. Where I went, did it all go? Amazing. Amazing.

[A]

All right, we'll stop it.

[C]

I'm a little triggered. Is a little bit dark crystal skeksis coated. Freaked me out a little bit, but I'm here for it. Ben, thanks for sharing.

[B]

To jump in here because this seems very relevant. I pulled this up before we even started, but most Eurovision wins in the history of the competition. It is a tie between Sweden and

[A]

Ireland, two countries that famously have fun seven times each.

[B]

I Sweden. I could have guessed that. That would have been one of my guesses. Ireland. Ireland.

[A]

It's something in the eyes, you know. So we. We also know that. We also know that. That there were entries into Eurovision that were bragging about agricultural goods. If you go to 2012, you'll see Russia's submission, which is. Party for everybody.

[C]

Bushki means everybody. I thought a babushka was like a little old lady.

[A]

Translation difference. And they did have have Russian grannies Baking bread on stage. That was part of their musical act.

[C]

Love it. Also, shout out to Kate Bush, my favorite artist of all time, second only maybe to David Bowie for her song Babushka, which.

[A]

Shout out to those mad lads from Moldova who got on unicycles. Of course, shout out to Estonia's chaotic punk act, Winnie. That's true. No, that's the real Dave.

[C]

I believe it. I believe it, Ben.

[A]

So, guys, this is all building toward one of the biggest questions that we and our fellow ridiculous historians have had over the past two episodes of this series. When are we going to Eurovision? Will accounting pay for it?

[B]

Let's go this weekend.

[A]

We actually cannot go this weekend.

[C]

We got stuff going on. We're going to be on the road, y', all, doing ridiculous history from the Bahamas. Gosh, must be nice, is what y' all are probably saying. It is work. We are stoked and we're very grateful to Baja Mar the Resort for putting us up for a couple days and letting us record from their podcast studio, which they apparently have. Yes.

[A]

Yeah. And we will update when we are recording in Baha Mar. Wish us the best, folks. We can't wait to hear hear from you. Your favorite Eurovision songs. Give it to us. Your least favorite. Give it to us. The ones that still thoroughly confuse you. Because, Max Nolan, I each have our own collected set of just real weird stuff from Eurovision. Big. Big thanks to our super producer, Mr. Max Williams. Big thanks to his biological brother, Alex Williams, who composed this track. And you know what? I think Alex would be great at Eurovision.

[C]

The man's got stage presence. The man's got Riz. Let's put him forth as the us, the first ever US entry into Eurovision. Though I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have us at this point.

[A]

I don't know. I think it's all in the swagger. Okay, so it's. If it's Alex, Max, you, myself. We'd have to add Jonathan Strickland, AKA the Quister. Can we put him in the. The back, maybe with like a. What's the least intrusive musical instrument?

[C]

The kazoo. No, he'll go too far.

[A]

That's too far.

[B]

Theremin there.

[A]

We'll give him a theremin. Can he drive a theremin?

[C]

Thereman's pretty intrusive, man.

[B]

Plug it in.

[C]

That thing goes high.

[A]

Can we give him, like a triangle?

[B]

Oh, you can get intrusive with the triangle, Ben.

[A]

All right.

[B]

I, I, I. It's not all right to stay on air, but I can tell you later.

[A]

Okay, well, tune in for the after show folks, which I guess means Texas or hit us up on Ridiculous Historians over on Facebook. Big thanks to Christopher Haciotis here in spirit. Big thanks to Eve's Jeffcoat, who recently returned to South Africa. By the way, I think she's okay with us saying that. No, I don't think either of us were able to make it to her yoga session when she was back in town.

[C]

No, sadly. But that's cause our buddy Dylan, who does live music for it and also produces our show, stuff that he wants you to know. He told me it's sold out, so I'm looking forward to trying out the next one.

[A]

Big thanks as well to AJ Bahamas Jacobs the puzzler. And big thanks to Rachel Bigspinach, Lance and Man Ben.

[C]

I gotta thank you twice over for this one because you were the research associate on this episode. Episode. This pair of episodes. As well as my. You know, we could maybe be a Eurovision duo. We just have to renounce our citizenship.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, the price dropped for that.

[C]

That's what I heard. I think we can afford it. We'll go in halfsies. We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite show shows.

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