First Ladies Who Weren't Wives, Part One: The Niece Will Have To Do

Summary

Ridiculous History: Episode Summary

Title: First Ladies Who Weren't Wives, Part One: The Niece Will Have To Do
Hosts: Ben Bullen & Noel Brown
Release Date: January 30, 2025
Production: iHeartPodcasts

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1. Introduction to the Role of the First Lady

Ben Bullen and Noel Brown kick off the episode by exploring the historical role of the First Lady of the United States (FLOTUS). They highlight that while the position is traditionally held by the President's spouse, this has not always been the case.

Ben Bullen [00:54]: “Historically speaking, every single US President so far has had a person close to them assuming the role of First Lady... but that was not always the case.”

Noel adds that the role is multifaceted, often involving charity work, acting as a presidential liaison, and engaging in various social and educational initiatives. The hosts emphasize the absence of a constitutional requirement for the position, making it an evolving role shaped by tradition and individual influence.

Noel Brown [01:10]: “The first lady of the United States, or FLOTUS, as you pointed out, has been the spouse of the current president. But that was not always the case.”

2. Martha Jefferson Randolph: Stepping In for Thomas Jefferson

The first case study delves into Martha Jefferson Randolph, daughter of President Thomas Jefferson, who assumed the duties of First Lady after her mother's death two decades before her father's presidency. The discussion covers her marriage to Thomas Mann Randolph, their sizeable family, and her role in managing presidential social events.

Ben Bullen [07:57]: “...her eldest daughter, Martha Jefferson Randolph, steps in and she becomes the first lady, the lead host for everyone visiting the presidency.”

Martha's contributions extended beyond mere hosting; she was actively involved in the intellectual and social circles of the time, attending salons and engaging in philosophical discourse. Her management of financial difficulties and the maintenance of plantations like Monticello and Edge Hill are also highlighted.

3. Dolley Madison: The Quintessential First Lady

Dolley Madison, wife of President James Madison, is portrayed as a masterful First Lady who skillfully navigated the intricate world of early American politics. Her efforts to support her husband's political career and her adeptness in hosting and diplomacy set her apart as a model of American womanhood.

Noel Brown [18:11]: “Enter Dolly Madison, who was doing some pretty clever political maneuverings...”

Dolley's role extended beyond traditional hosting; she actively engaged with diplomats and politicians, creating a supportive network that bolstered her husband's administration. Her ability to manage both household affairs and political nuances made her an indispensable figure in the Madison administration.

4. Andrew Jackson's Unconventional First Ladies

The narrative shifts to Andrew Jackson, whose marital history led to unique circumstances for the role of First Lady. Rachel Jackson, his wife, tragically died before his inauguration, resulting in his niece, Emily Donaldson, stepping into the role. The episode explores the scandal surrounding Rachel's marriage and the subsequent impact on Jackson's presidency.

Ben Bullen [35:18]: “She had lived with Jackson at the Hermitage, but she died just days after his election and before his inauguration.”

Rachel Jackson's untimely death was exacerbated by intense public scrutiny and slander campaigns, which took a severe toll on her health. These challenges not only affected her personally but also influenced the political landscape during Jackson's rise to power.

5. Sarah York Jackson: Continuing the Legacy

Following Emily Donaldson, Sarah York Jackson, wife of Jackson's adopted son, took on the responsibilities of First Lady. Her tenure involved managing the White House household, including overseeing enslaved workers, and maintaining diplomatic relationships amidst a tumultuous political environment.

Noel Brown [41:34]: “...she sees out the administration. She does this.”

Sarah York Jackson's role was pivotal in upholding the social and political functions of the White House. Her efforts in hosting and managing diplomatic affairs provided stability during the latter part of Jackson's presidency. Despite personal tragedies, including a devastating fire at the Hermitage, she maintained her duties with resilience.

6. Conclusion and Future Episodes

Ben and Noel conclude the episode by reflecting on the unique contributions of these non-spousal First Ladies. They tease upcoming episodes that will explore other unconventional First Ladies, including those under President Van Buren, and roles that were not traditionally held by women.

Ben Bullen [46:35]: “...we will also light spoiler talk about some FLOTUS roles that were not occupied by women at all.”

The hosts express their excitement for continued exploration of these fascinating historical figures, inviting listeners to stay tuned for more intriguing stories from the annals of American history.

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Notable Quotes:

• Noel Brown [05:27]: “...they have the ability to play a man's game with a woman's wiles...”
• Ben Bullen [18:27]: “...she creates an alternative hub of power over at the Madison House...”
• Noel Brown [27:12]: “We don't like kings here. So it hasn't been that far removed from the old American revolution.”
• Ben Bullen [35:28]: “...Andrew Jackson was so angry about the campaign slurs hurled against his wife...”

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This episode of Ridiculous History provides a comprehensive look into the unconventional First Ladies of the United States, shedding light on the pivotal roles played by women who weren't the presidents' wives. Through engaging storytelling and insightful analysis, Ben Bullen and Noel Brown bring to life the lesser-known facets of American presidential history.

Transcript

[Ben Bullen]

Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you so much as always for tuning in. And that's the first gentleman of our podcast, our super producer, Mr. Max Williams.

[Noel Brown]

I have actually always dreamed of being a house husband.

[Ben Bullen]

Oh, gentleman's.

[Noel Brown]

That's a posh gig right there.

[Ben Bullen]

Late stage capitalism. Are you kidding? What are we doing here, you guys? I am Ben Bullitt. That's Mr. Noel Brown.

[Noel Brown]

Hello.

[Ben Bullen]

Hello. Hello, sir. We are talking about something that was in the news again quite recently. The historical concept here in the United States of something called the First Lady.

[Noel Brown]

So, AKA flotus, which I think is fun to say.

[Ben Bullen]

Yes, FLOTUS and potus. What a power couple. So, historically speaking, every single US President so far has had a person close to them assuming the role of first Lady. Generally, most of the time, especially in recent years, the first lady of the United States, or flotus, as you pointed out, has been the spouse of the current president. But that was not always the case.

[Noel Brown]

That's right. And just really quickly, I just thought it might be worth mentioning for anyone overseas or anyone here in the United States who maybe isn't up on this kind of stuff. What does the first lady do exactly? It can mean lots of things. There are often charity events and things and causes that various first Ladies throughout history have sort of taken on. There is the role of essentially being a presidential liaison of sorts. Oftentimes they interface and interact with kids and education a lot, but it is kind of an amorphous role and depending on the first lady can be a lot of different things, right?

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, absolutely. Because first Ladies don't always have to be spouses.

[Noel Brown]

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[Ben Bullen]

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[Noel Brown]

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[Ben Bullen]

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[Noel Brown]

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[Ben Bullen]

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[Noel Brown]

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[Unknown]

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[Ben Bullen]

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[Unknown]

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[Ben Bullen]

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[Ben Bullen]

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[Ben Bullen]

There can be. Daughters, sisters, nieces. And as we'll see in later explorations, it goes pretty wide. It goes wider than that because there is no thing, no language in the Constitution requiring the existence or the role of a flotus, of a First Lady. It's one of those rule of thumb things, always been tradition. And I love that you're pointing out the relatively amorphous nature of this. First ladies are a golden goose for media, for documentaries, podcasts, books, scholarly papers. But there's no legal definition. It's kind of a thing of it's kind of a matter of what you, as flotus, want to do. Some are definitely more active than others.

[Noel Brown]

I will read a quick excerpt from who is a First Lady? From the national national parkservice.gov website nps.gov, a director of Social Affairs, Presidential Liaison, symbol of strength, policy advocate, political reformer, keeper of the People's House. That was interesting. Partner and confidant. The first ladies of the United States have taken on numerous roles throughout American history. As the cultural milieu shifted, so did the expectations and responsibilities of a First Lady.

[Ben Bullen]

Yes, they shift back and forth. And with that, I'll see you there on National Park Service. And also go to the White House Historical Association. Great summation written by Rosie Cain. And this is with big thanks to our research associate, Jeff Whitehousehistory.org, they say commentators, scholars, and American society have typically defined the role of first lady by marriage, elevating the status of the presidential spouse rather than focusing on the duties performed by these individuals. Hosting events, personal political confidant to the president, supporting political and social causes, which we'll get to, and then historically serving as a symbolic model, dare I say propaganda, of what American womanhood means at the time of that administration or to that administration.

[Noel Brown]

I guess the reason I cringed a little bit at that, because it sort of comes off somewhat as sort of America's housekeeper, which feels a little dated. I don't know about you.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. These individuals are often called White House hostesses because a lot of what they're doing is what we would deem soft diplomacy. You know what I mean? Figuring out how to run the party. Let's get to one of our first or two of our first examples. Old Thomas Jefferson, a uniquely humble guy, the kind of dude who had the modesty to look at the Christian Bible and say, I have some notes.

[Noel Brown]

So, Thomas Jefferson, we'll call him TJ for ridiculous history purposes. He actually had two unconventional first ladies, one being his daughter Martha, and the other being his buddy, James Madison's wife, Dolly. This is a sad story, however, because it is due to the fact that his wife passed away 20 years before his inauguration.

[Ben Bullen]

And I would say even the propaganda of this was even more important in the early days of the United States. Yes, Thomas Jefferson's wife, Martha, sadly passed away long before he ascended to the position of potus. So as a result of this unfortunate passing, when Thomas Jefferson ascends to the office of potus, they need someone to fill that first lady role. His eldest daughter, Martha Jefferson Randolph, steps in and she becomes the first lady, the lead host for everyone visiting the presidency. When it is the Jefferson administration, she goes on. And we're leaning again on whitehousehistory.org here, a great bio of Martha Jefferson Randolph. She goes on to get a private education. And let's be honest, not all women can get this. In the 1700s, she travels with her father, T Jeffys, across the world. She marries a guy named Thomas mann Randolph on February 23, 1790. Shout out to our earlier honorifics episode. This is her relative, but it's a distant relative. You know what I mean? Like, it's okay.

[Noel Brown]

Distance. It's ish. Okay. Yeah, I'll allow it. It's certainly better than other examples of cousin marrying.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. They have 12 children together, Thomas Mann Randolph and Martha, 11 of whom.

[Noel Brown]

Randolph, that's great. I Don't know. I like the sound of that.

[Ben Bullen]

Eleven of these children, these issue, they survived to adulthood. The couples live in at Jefferson's plantation, Monticello. We could do multiple episodes about that, right?

[Noel Brown]

I mean, we do know, of course, that Thomas Jefferson was a slave owner. Yes. Not great. Martha was the head of the household and kind of handled all of the affairs and managed the staff, and that included the enslaved workers, which is rough.

[Ben Bullen]

And she was doing this not just at her dad's spot, Monticello, but also at her husband's plantation, Edge Hill. So Thomas Jefferson, fast forward, he's elected to the presidency, and when he is, his eldest daughter, travels up to D.C. and she serves as what they call the White House hostess during the winter social seasons of 1802 to 1803 and 1805 to 1806. The idea of social seasons, like the galas, the balls, the fundraising meetings, it still happens in certain upper echelons of US Society. And it always seems so silly to me.

[Noel Brown]

If there's a winter social season, surely there's a summer social season as well. They require wearing of different hats and garments. You know, more flowy, white garments in the summer and perhaps, you know, a little more bundled up in the winter.

[Ben Bullen]

Why are you wearing a tuxedo, Jack? It's after seven, Lemon. What am I? A farmer.

[Noel Brown]

What am I? A farmer? Very good. Very good. 30 Rock. That relationship that will they, won't they of Liz Lemon and Jack Donaghy never ceases to entertain me. Yeah, excellent rewatchability factor on absolutely the density of jokes.

[Ben Bullen]

My favorite is the one throwaway line. My new single. My new single is dropping. Is dropping. That's Tracy Jordan's wife when she becomes part of a reality show.

[Noel Brown]

You just scrambled my brains. And as for the will they, won't they? Of Liz and Jack, won't they. It's not meant to be sexual attention. It's more of a mentor mentee relationship.

[Ben Bullen]

Very lost in translation.

[Noel Brown]

I guess there is a little of that. Who was I listening to? It was the Blank Check podcast with Griffin and David, who I love dearly. They were talking about how every time someone points out this idea of simmering sexual tension on the show, both Jack and Liz get intensely annoyed.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, right. I mean, picture your dad naked or don't. You know what I mean?

[Noel Brown]

Please don't.

[Ben Bullen]

That's what. That's what it's going towards. So speaking of close relationships with one's pattern familias.

[Noel Brown]

Master of the segue.

[Ben Bullen]

Thank you, sir. Martha is doing really well. At first, because during these social seasons, in her role functionally as the first lady, she is a huge advocate for Tommy Jeff's career. And she gets a reputation in the salons. In the philosophical discourse of the day, people are looking around and saying, hey, I know she's the President's kid, but. But even with all that aside, she's really smart. She's a Cracker Jack.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah. Attending salons, you know, intellectual discussions and all of that stuff.

[Ben Bullen]

But behind the headlines, behind those happy conversations, there are financial difficulties. Both her husband, Man Randolph, and her father, Tommy Jay, are continually worried about the coin. So her father dies in 1826. Spoiler. And the family is forced to sell Monticello. Martha moves to Tufton to live with her eldest son, Thomas Jefferson Randolph. And at this point, I want to take a moment and say there's a diminishing return with remixing family names. At some point, give someone a cool family name. Thomas Jefferson Randolph. You could have just added the middle name with something cool like Dash or Fox or Ziggy.

[Noel Brown]

I do like Man Randolph, though, I've got to say, I'm not going to lie to jump in here. This reminds me of John Adams ii.

[Ben Bullen]

Who was the son of John Quincy.

[Noel Brown]

Adams, who was obviously the son of John Adams. And also John Adams married his first cousin.

[Ben Bullen]

It's rough, man. It's just like for any magical realism nerds in the crowd, it's just like 100 Years of Solitude by Gabriel Garcia Marquez. The most difficult thing about reading that book is everybody has some combination of the same, like three to four names. Anyway, always give your kids a back pocket middle name to differentiate themselves. If you take nothing else from this. Ultimately, we know that Martha also, despite having so many kids with Man Randolph, she ultimately went on the rocks. Their marriage was not its best. They were estranged for a while, a long time. And right before he dies in 1828, she reconciles with him. And then she spends the rest of her life sort of moving around the United States, living with her children on their property. Sometimes in Boston, sometimes in D.C. or Virginia. And then, upon her death, she is buried alongside her husband and her father at Monticello. And then along comes Dolly. Wasn't that delicious?

[Unknown]

So good.

[Ben Bullen]

Your bill, ladies.

[Unknown]

I got it. No, I got it. Seriously, I insist. I insisted first.

[Noel Brown]

Don't be silly.

[Unknown]

You'll be silly.

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[Noel Brown]

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[Ben Bullen]

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[Noel Brown]

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[Noel Brown]

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[Ben Bullen]

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[Noel Brown]

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[Ben Bullen]

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[Noel Brown]

Enter Dolly Madison, who was doing some pretty clever political maneuverings, you know, within her role as First Lady. She was essentially trying to ensure that her husband, James Madison, would become the next president.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, yeah. And going back to WhiteHouseHistory.org, we see that there's a Venn diagram of first lady or Flotish hood, a dumb word we just made up. Dolley Madison is unofficially doing some whispering to the kingmakers, right? And during the Jefferson administration, her husband James is Secretary of State. And the entire time she's stepping in, you know, hey, if Martha can't make it, I'm happy to host this gala. You know what I mean? I'll receive the ambassador from wherever.

[Noel Brown]

So they were essentially doing this kind of in tandem, Martha and Dolly splitting.

[Ben Bullen]

Up the duties, kind of alternating, sort of a double dragon situation for anybody who played an increasingly obscure video game.

[Noel Brown]

Love a good Beat em up.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, yeah. Love a good scroller. And every time. This is a true story, folks. Every time my pal Noel and I are on the road, we do look for an arcade if it's available, right?

[Noel Brown]

Love a good arcade. And if anybody ever finds themselves in the Atlanta area, I highly recommend, I believe it's called Round One at the Cumberland Mall, which is a cornucopia of incredible claw machines and obscure Japanese fighting cabinet games that characters you've never heard of, not to mention like every rhythm game you could possibly want to try your hand at. And I think there are some elsewhere in the country, too. So look into Round One if you're seeking a rad arcade.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, they're a chain. And speaking of chains of power, right?

[Noel Brown]

Stop it with these segues.

[Ben Bullen]

Come on, genius. So, 1801, let's learn a little bit of background. Dolly and her husband James, who gets famous for other things. Later, they moved to D.C. because James is Secretary of State and it's a friendship hire. Tommy Jay hires him. And because Jefferson is a widower, Dolly is periodically assisting Jefferson, primarily when other women are visiting the White House or visiting the President. So it's not just Tommy Jay hanging out in a room.

[Noel Brown]

No, she's hosting these social gatherings or hosting the wives of powerful men. And by getting in their good grace races, she more or less had a pretty close walk to influencing some of these powerful men as well.

[Ben Bullen]

And she also, to your excellent point about political machination, she also created an alternative hub of power over at the Madison House, which was on F Street. What one Washingtonian observed during this time was the following. After the presidents, the house of the Secretary of State was the resort of most company. Politicians and diplomats could not resist Dolly's conciliatory disposition, her frank, gracious manners. They frequented her evening circle and sat at her husband's table. So she was the after party as well, right?

[Noel Brown]

Oh, yeah, the afters, indeed. And Dolly does get a lot of attention in the conversation surrounding first ladies, I think, because she was so charming and she was also so politically adept. But I don't think she came off as being duplicitous necessarily, either. She navigated it all with grace, I would say. I think history remembers her pretty fondly for all of this stuff.

[Ben Bullen]

Oh, yeah, 100%, dude. Because she understands the. We keep using the word symbolic, and White House sources also will use the word symbolic. But let's be honest, we're talking propaganda. You know what I mean? Like how honorifics are just fancy nicknames. Symbolic importance is just propaganda importance at this point.

[Noel Brown]

That's right. So Dolly basically becomes the quintessential first lady and that kind of prototype for the model of American womanhood that we mentioned at the top of the show because of all of these social graces and ability to kind of play a man's game with a woman's wiles or whatever. I don't know. I'm speaking in the parlance of the time. You know what I mean?

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, yeah. And Jefferson, for his part, look, I think a lot of people forget this about the guy. He is. He's got big startup CEO energy.

[Noel Brown]

Right.

[Ben Bullen]

He's very much the guy who says, look, let's be informal. You know, the United States, it's an experiment. We're throwing out all that stuffy old world, the trappings, the mores, the trappings, the values. So we're not going to sit people in this rigid diplomatic hierarchy. You come to hang out with me, your boy, President Tommy, Jeff, just figure out where you want to sit for dinner, and then we'll just hang out. And Dolly becomes the social glue or the bridge between these two very different worlds. Sometimes it triggers international incidents.

[Noel Brown]

That's right. I mean, but, you know, she did become an international figure because of some of these examples, one of which involved Jefferson creating a serious international kerfuffle in 1803 by escorting Dolly to the dinner table instead of the wife of a British ambassador by the name of Anthony.

[Ben Bullen]

Mary, whom I'm sure we all know and remember.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, 100%. Some of those stuffy kind of mores and hierarchies that we had mentioned or that you had mentioned. Ben would have dictated that that be the move, but instead, they were kind of writing their own rules. And maybe that flies, you know, in their own country, but when folks are coming in from outside of the United States kind of important to play by their rules, at least to some degree, wouldn't you say?

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

And diplomacy is sort of riding that fine line.

[Ben Bullen]

Meeting in the middle before you push the envelope or before you take someone somewhere. You have to find them where they're at. This sounds weird, but it was a very big deal. It's 1803, picture the night of. Dolly is trying to get Tommy Jeff to do the right thing and she's saying, no, no, don't take me. You gotta. This is very important to these weird British people.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah. She's demonstrating some more diplomatic chops than the Prez.

[Ben Bullen]

Cultural knowledge, like in certain areas of the Middle east, shouldn't eat with your left hand nor shake with it. She knew all of these tips and tricks. Jefferson either didn't know or because of his big startup energy, he didn't care. Anthony Mary and the Merry misses were not fans of this. They felt snubbed and it became something called the Merry Affair.

[Noel Brown]

It's so petty.

[Ben Bullen]

Who walks to dinner in what order? That's. That's wild.

[Noel Brown]

It's just. It's another example that we see all the time in history how one seemingly insignificant event or, you know, like a butterfly effect type situation can lead to toppling dominoes, you know, further down the line and can actually cause hot wars. I mean, like, you know, I mean, the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand, for example, you know, a big deal. A person. A person was killed, of course, but it would not have at the time seemed to be enough to set off this powder keg that would lead to a world war. We're not dealing with those kind of stakes here. But it did increase some. Already pretty rough political tensions between the United States and the United Kingdom for.

[Ben Bullen]

Reasons can't imagine why other things were at play. Yeah. The powder keg situation almost always occurs because there were rising tensions that were sort of waiting for an ignition point. And that's what happened with Franz Ferdinand. This is also what could have happened with the Mary incident. Incident. Because from the perspective of the ambassador from Great Britain, it's a matter of. Not something petty. It's a matter of do you respect the king? Do you respect the empire?

[Noel Brown]

We don't though. Right. Isn't that the whole deal? We don't like kings here. So it hasn't been that far removed from the old American revolution. Those tensions are incredibly high still, wouldn't you say?

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, people are still alive remembering this. It's not like hanging out in Manchester and taking the piss out with some of your friends about the revolution. This is very close to everybody's heart and experience at this point. So to Anthony Mary, he is the avatar of the king of the state, of the power of Great Britain. So if you do something wrong or out of diplomatic protocol, even if he personally doesn't care, you have now besmirched the dignity of the state.

[Noel Brown]

You have insulted the king himself. You may as well have spat in his face, you know?

[Ben Bullen]

Exactly. And Dolly, again, we can't shout her out enough. Dolly works within these nuances of culture. She is plugged into all of the feminine power makers in these diplomatic circles. So she says, look, we don't want to have this blow up any more than it already has. So she reaches out, not directly, to Elizabeth Mary Anthony, Mary's wife, who apparently got dissed. She goes through a common friend of a friend, the wife of the Spanish ambassador.

[Noel Brown]

So impressive.

[Ben Bullen]

They make friends. There's a lot of house of cards kind of maneuvering here. And eventually they bury the hatchet. They succeed in inviting the Marys over to dinner at her home at Madison's F Street home. So she may have saved the day in a way that history ignores.

[Noel Brown]

Well, she tried to prevent the whole affair in the first place, and she just, you know, Jefferson didn't listen to her, and then she ended up having to clean up his mess. I wonder why he didn't listen to her.

[Ben Bullen]

Probably cause she was a woman.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, but I just. He's doing it sort of. It's in her favor, Right. Like to escort her, and she's saying, you know, no, it's the better move to escort the wife of the diplomat. And he just doesn't like to be told what to do. Or is he actively pushing back against the idea of following the British kind of code?

[Ben Bullen]

I would go with the latter there.

[Noel Brown]

I think, too, which seems very. Not very smart.

[Ben Bullen]

No, but, you know, not everybody dying on. Yeah, no, not everybody's smart all the time. This leads us to another example. Again, this will probably be a continuing series, but Andrew Jackson, worst dude. Yeah. Famously not a great president and not a good person.

[Noel Brown]

Right?

[Ben Bullen]

Neither. He also had two first ladies. There was some weird, as Jeff points out, some weird legality of marriage stuff going on with this first wife. Excellent diplomacy there, Jeff. Wasn't that delicious?

[Unknown]

So good.

[Ben Bullen]

Your bill, ladies.

[Unknown]

I got it. No, I got it. Seriously, I insist. I insisted first.

[Noel Brown]

Don't be silly.

[Unknown]

You don't be silly.

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[Bobby Bones]

Bones here Join me on the new Top Shelf Country Cruise. It sails February 2026 aboard the luxury Celebrity Reflection, stopping at St. Kitts and Nevis and also St. Martin. There'll be live music with top tier country artists and I'll be performing as well. Go to topshelfcountrycruise.com before January 30th and register for the free Friends of Bobby Presale. No deposits required and you get early access to the best staterooms.

[Ben Bullen]

Picture this. You're in the garage, hands covered in grease, just finished tuning up your engine with a part you found on ebay and you realize, you know what? I can also use new brakes.

[Noel Brown]

So where do you go next?

[Ben Bullen]

Next?

[Noel Brown]

Back to ebay.

[Ben Bullen]

You can find anything there. It's unreal.

[Noel Brown]

Wipers, headlights, even cold air intakes. It's all there.

[Ben Bullen]

And you've got ebay Guaranteed fit.

[Noel Brown]

You order a part and if it doesn't fit, send it back. Simple as that.

[Ben Bullen]

Look, DIY fixes can be major. Doesn't matter if it's just maintenance or a major mod, you got it.

[Noel Brown]

Especially when things are guaranteed to fit.

[Ben Bullen]

So when you dive into your next car project, start with ebay all the.

[Noel Brown]

Parts you need at prices you'll love. Guaranteed to fit every time.

[Ben Bullen]

Ebay Things People Love hey guys, it's.

[Dr. Josie]

Dr. Josie from in the vet's office. I may be a veterinarian, but first and foremost, I'm a dog mom to three amazing pups and I would do anything for them to live long and healthy lives. That's where Pettivity comes in. Petivity is reimagining pet care with a family of devices and health kits that can help you care more proactively for the pets you love. Love. Because everyone wants their pets to live long and happy lives. Petivity health kits and smart pet products use data, AI and best in class technology to learn your pet's behaviors and alert you to key changes that you can act on. By equipping you with information that allows you to understand new facets of your pet's health and wellness. Petivity's products can help you give your pet a voice and empower you to provide the best care possible, these products transform your pet's data into real insights about their well being, giving you the peace of mind that you're going above and beyond for your pet. Visit P-E-T-I-V-I-T-Y.com to learn more. That's P-E-T-I dash V-I-T dash y.com to learn more.

[Noel Brown]

It would seem that some of those negative qualities that we hinted at led to quite the scandal with his first wife. She did not even make it to his inauguration because she sadly, due to something, an amorphous sickness that seemed to be brought on by just, like, anxiety around the way she was treated by Andrew Jackson. Do you have any more details around that, guys?

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. Rachel Jackson was the. She died on December 22, 1828. She had lived with Jackson at the Hermitage, but she died just just days after his election and before his inauguration, which was in 1829. So she never served as first lady, but you got to have a First lady at this point in time. You got to have somebody being the White House host individual. So according to our pal Jeff, there's another story with Rachel Jackson in particular that doesn't even touch on his official two First Ladies. The duties of the first lady after Rachel Jackson dies go to her niece, Emily Donaldson.

[Noel Brown]

And, you know, I do have to ask. It seems like it's up to the discretion of the President and his advisors as to who the right person is to kind of step into that role, because there's no, like, line of succession, per se, Right?

[Ben Bullen]

No, there are no. What is this, Europe? Yeah. There are no rigid, rigid instructions or. Nor a rubric on what to do. We know that Rachel Jackson was viciously attacked in the press, so much so that it probably traumatized her. When she is buried in an area near Nashville, Tennessee, her epitaph bears the following a being so gentle and so virtuous, slander might wound but could not dishonor. So it seems that Andrew Jackson was so angry about the campaign slurs hurled against his wife that he needed that carved in stone on her grave.

[Noel Brown]

Am I misspeaking, though? I mean, it does seem like his first wife, her condition worsened as a result of stress.

[Ben Bullen]

Absolutely. Yeah. Traumatic, you know, and she was born in Virginia. She traveled through the wilderness of Tennessee with her parents when she was just.

[Noel Brown]

Frontier baby.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, Frontier baby. She also was previously married before she married Jackson, which was a big, big deal in a big, bad way at that point.

[Noel Brown]

Likely would have been used as ammunition in that slander campaign.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. So she marries this guy, Lewis Roberts, when she is 17. He is the child of a very big deal family in Mercer county, and apparently he was quite the jealous husband, so much so that it made her living situation impossible. They separate in 1790. And then she gets word, not from him, that he's filing for divorce. Divorce can always be a traumatic, messy thing. But folks, we're a little bit better off in 2025 than we are in 1790. Eventually the divorce goes through. Andrew Jackson marries her the next year. Or they think the divorce goes through. Record scratch Max. Yeah. Turns out that the later president and his new wife learn that, that this first husband, Lewis Roberts, didn't get a divorce, actually, he just got permission to file one. And so when they get married, this guy comes back out from the blue and sues them on the grounds of adultery. Wow.

[Noel Brown]

Not a good PR moment for the would be president. After the divorce was finally granted, the Jacksons, renowned, remarried in 1794. And they, you know, this was no particular fault of their own. You know, this was something that just was not clear. And you know, we know also that communication lines of communication were slow. If things like the court systems grind slowly today, back in those days, due to the fact that you couldn't even get word to somebody about something, it would have been exponentially slower. Those whispers, however, because of that a word that scarlet letter, adultery and bigamy, even the rumors just kind of wouldn't stop. And they followed Rachel around. As Jackson started to make his rise in politics and as a general, yeah.

[Ben Bullen]

He was quick to be super hot headed about any of these rumors. If he heard someone saying them in person, it was smash on sight. He was ready to fight with you.

[Noel Brown]

I think where I did misspeak slightly is we know Andrew Jackson had some serious moral issues and was a very aggressive dude. It would seem though, however, that the stress that led to Rachel's untimely passing was less caused by him than it was caused by just what he was and represented and the need to kind of tear him down a peg and. And she was essentially a target for that. He was going to every effort that he could manage to defend her honor.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah, he was fighting the tabloids of the time, we could say. And look, everybody who actually knew Rachel Jackson, again, not officially a first lady, everybody who knew her loved her because she was down home. She was not pretentious, she was very kind. A lot of people might not even be fans of Andrew Jackson himself, but when they go to the Hermitage, they're welcomed as family. The Jacksons never have any children of their own, but they take in a lot of Rachel's relatives and she had a ton of relatives. They adopted a nephew, they named him in a burst of creativity, Andrew Jackson junior.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, geez, yeah. They also raised other nephews as their own. Andrew Jackson, Donaldson being one of them, eventually got. No. Who eventually married a cousin as well. First cousin, that would seem. Emily, one of Rachel's favorite nieces. So match made in heaven there. When Jackson was finally elected president, he planned to have Donaldson serve as private secretary with Emily hanging around to keep Rachel company.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah. Yeah. And then, of course, as we mentioned, Rachel Jackson passes away. And with this, Emily gets an unforeseen promotion. Jackson says, why don't you serve as the hostess? You do the. And again, this is very dated. You do the woman folk stuff. That's what they're thinking. And she is 21 at this point. She enters the White House. She takes care of everything. Her uncle, you know, the President, her own husband. She has four children. Three are born at the White House. And she takes care of visitors, visiting relatives, and then official guest. It's a big family in the White House at this time. And everybody who meets her again, they love her. They say, look, I might not agree with old Andy, but his sidekick is awesome. And also, she will stick up to the President of the United States on issues of principle. If she has a problem with something, if she thinks he's rolling off the road in one way or another, then she is speaking truth to power, which is a very difficult thing to do. But she also dies of tuberculosis in 1836. And so it came to pass that during the last months of the Jackson administration. Here we go. More confusing names. Sarah York Jackson, who is the wife of Andrew Jackson Jr. The adopted nephew, functionally becomes the First Lady.

[Noel Brown]

That's right. And, you know, it's interesting how all of these first ladies were so popular and so beloved, despite Andrew Jackson, again, being a bit of a pill. And we. Was he popular at the time, though. I mean, I know history remembers him for things like the Indian removal act of 1830 and, you know, pushing for states rights and ethnic cleansing, you know, of Native Americans from state lands and also being very aggressive towards the civil rights of free people of color and having also been a pretty brutal slave owner himself. But I'm just wondering, what was the feeling? A lot of people seemed like they might have been cool with a lot of this stuff in the day of.

[Ben Bullen]

His presidency, contemporarily, he did have a lot of opposition, but he also had a lot of support. There's a reason he became president. Now, if you go back back through one of the favorite games of we historical president buffs, you'll see that he is not ranked as low as a lot of presidents on best to worst. But he is not ranked very high either. He was always polemical. He was always a kind of demagogue. Crowds loved him. They loved his speeches. He was very much against. Against certain aspects of banking. That part we could agree with. He was opposed to the Second bank of the United States.

[Noel Brown]

Wasn't there a scandal too, where he removed deposits of some kind and was censured by the legislature?

[Ben Bullen]

Well, the Second bank was an absolute existential threat to the idea of democracy. It was a private company, but it functioned as a government sponsored monopoly. And I do appreciate that you're doing the needful thing here as well, which is he definitely participated in widespread genocidal attempts against Native American populations. You could put thousands of deaths at his feet. And again, the terrifying thing is that gained him a lot of support. So people might be opposed to his ideas, but then when they meet his niece, here's someone I can talk stuff out with. Or when they meet Sarah Yorke Jackson, who is his adoptive daughter in law, they think, okay, well, I could talk to her.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah. And she continued to kind of carry the torch of that role by hosting functions at the White House along with Emily Donaldson. And when Donaldson departed two years later, she took over fully.

[Ben Bullen]

Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

So.

[Ben Bullen]

So let's learn a little bit about Sarah. Sarah York is born somewhere in the early 1800s, right at the turn of the 19th century, 1803 to 1805, she's in Philly. She is orphaned as a child. She is raised by relatives. She marries Andrew Jackson Jr. That adopted son, in 1831. She, like so many others, lives at the Hermitage. And she. She, like other people, oversees the operation of the household, including enslaved people on the property. And a fire damages the Hermitage in 1834. So Sarah York Jackson now and her family moved to the White House. And she, as you said, is assisting Emily Donaldson in these hosting positions. And she sees out the administration. She does this. After Emily Donaldson passes, when Jackson leaves the presidency, Sarah Yorke Jackson and her family go back to Tennessee and she takes care of her father in law, the former president, until he passes away in 1845, at which point the ownership of the Hermitage goes to the adopted son, Andrew Jackson Jr. Here. And get this knoll. He sells it.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, to pay off some pretty crippling debt in 1856. So after Sarah's husband passed, she continued on at the Hermitage until she passed away on August 23rd of 1887. And she is buried there in a cemetery on the grounds.

[Ben Bullen]

And with that I propose that we call it a day here because the next few first lady flutist situations we're examining get a little bit deeper for the scope of today's episode. Today we'll talk about Van Buren in our next exploration, and we will also light spoiler talk about some FLOTUS roles that were not occupied by women at all.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, man, I can't wait. If you want to find us on the Internet, you can do so. I am at how now. Noel Brown on Instagram. Ben, where can the fine, ridiculous historians out in podcast land find you?

[Ben Bullen]

Yes, should you care to sip the social meats, you can find me calling myself in a burst of creativity. Ben Bullen on Instagram, Ben Bullen HSW on X or the website benbullin.com Big, big thanks to Mr. Max Williams, our research associate, Jeff. We need a good nickname for Jeff. We'll. We'll get there one one day. What do you got? Do you got one?

[Noel Brown]

Jeff Mack tonight. Bartlett.

[Ben Bullen]

There we go.

[Noel Brown]

I just love that episode, man.

[Ben Bullen]

What a.

[Noel Brown]

What a fun discussion that was.

[Ben Bullen]

What a wild drive. Yeah. A big, big thanks, of course, to AJ Bahamas Jacobs, to Jonathan Strickland, AKA the quizter, and Alex Tijuana Williams, indeed.

[Noel Brown]

Chris Fracio Deeves. Jeff Coates here in spirit. Max Williams, the man behind the curtain.

[Ben Bullen]

Ed, big thanks to the curtain. We paid a pretty hefty price for it, but I think it's good. I think it's cool for us to have a curtain.

[Noel Brown]

We got at the same time we got the giant grandfather clock that we occasionally reference.

[Ben Bullen]

Yes, yes, yes, we did. And if you want to learn more about the mythos, please check out our past, present and future episodes. As always, thank you for tuning in, folks. There's so much more to explore, and we're glad you're doing it with us. And Noel, thank you to you.

[Noel Brown]

And you as well, Ben. We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Unknown]

The Unshakeables podcast is kicking off season two with an episode you won't wanna miss. Miss. Join host Ben Walter, CEO of Chase for Business, as he welcomes a very special guest, chairman and CEO of JP Morgan Chase, Jamie Dimon. Hear about the challenges facing small businesses and some of the oh, moments Jamie has overcome. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. Chase Mobile app is available for select mobile devices. Message and data rates may apply. JP Morgan Chase Bank Naomi Member FDIC Copyright 2025 JP Morgan Chase & Co.

[Bobby Bones]

Bobby Bones here Join me on the new Top Shelf Country Cruise. It sails February 2026 aboard the luxury Celebrity Reflection, stopping at St. Kitts and Nevis and also St. Martin. There'll be live music with top tier country artists and I'll be performing as well. Go to topshelf countrycruise.com before January 30th and register for the free Friends of Bobby Presale. No deposits required and you get early access to the best staterooms.

[Unknown]

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[Dr. Josie]

Hey guys, it's Dr. Josie from in the vet's office. I may be a veterinarian, but first and foremost I'm a dog mom to three amazing pups and I would do anything for them to live long and healthy lives. That's where Pettivity comes in. Petivity is reimagining pet care with a family of devices and health kits that can help you care more proactively for the pets you love. Because everyone wants their pets to live long and happy lives. Petivity health kits and smart pet products use data, AI and best in class technology to learn your pet's behaviors and alert you to key changes that you can act on. By equipping you with information that allows you to understand new facets of your pet's health and wellness, petivity's products can help you give your pet a voice voice and empower you to provide the best care possible. These products transform your pet's data into real insights about their well being, giving you the peace of mind that you're going above and beyond for your pet. Visit P E T I V I T y dot com to learn more. That's P E T I V I t dash y dot com to learn more.