History's Most Ridiculous Clothing, with AJ Jacobs: Part Two

Summary

Ridiculous History: Episode Summary

Episode: History's Most Ridiculous Clothing, with AJ Jacobs: Part Two
Release Date: May 1, 2025
Host: Ben Bolan & Noel Brown
Guest: AJ Jacobs

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Introduction and Overview

In the second installment of "History's Most Ridiculous Clothing," hosts Ben Bolan and Noel Brown continue their engaging exploration into the bizarre and often impractical fashion trends that have punctuated human history. Joined once again by guest AJ Jacobs, the trio delves deeper into the extravagant and sometimes harmful sartorial choices from bygone eras.

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The Extravagance of Tall Wigs

The conversation kicks off with a discussion on the opulent tall wigs of the 18th century, particularly those worn by figures like Marie Antoinette.

• AJ Jacobs (03:05): “The bigger the wig, the bigger the bank account. Yep, you got it.”

AJ explains that these wigs, sometimes reaching heights of four feet, were not just a status symbol but also a practical (though flawed) method to display wealth and social standing. The wigs were complex constructions made from wire, horse hair, human hair, beef tallow, and even adorned with feathers and taxidermied birds.

• AJ Jacobs (05:18): “They had to stick their heads out the window of the carriage… their heads caught on fire.”

The impracticality of maintaining such elaborate wigs, especially during times of social unrest like the lead-up to the French Revolution, made them a symbol of excess that fueled public resentment.

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Corsets: The Painful Pursuit of Fashion

Transitioning from wigs, the discussion moves to the restrictive corsets that women wore from the 1700s to the 1800s.

• AJ Jacobs (07:27): “These stays were like proto corsets… They are like boa constrictors around your waist.”

Ben Bolan highlights the extreme constriction of corsets, some of which reduced the waist to an astonishing 13 inches in diameter. The hosts discuss the severe health implications and the societal pressure on women to endure such discomfort for the sake of fashion.

• Newspaper Quote (08:07): “The tight lacing has produced generations of invalids and bequeathed to posterity suffering that will not vanish for many decades.” (Referenced at 08:07)

Resistance to corsetry emerged through early feminist movements and medical professionals who condemned the practice as dangerous and oppressive.

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Ruffs and Sumptuary Laws: Ornamental Status Symbols

The episode shifts focus to the ruff, an elaborate neckwear popular during the Elizabethan era.

• AJ Jacobs (18:06): “They were purely ornamental… made of six yards of cloth with up to 600 pleats.”

The ruff served as a clear indicator of social class, with larger and more colorful ruffs signifying higher status. This trend was so contentious that it prompted backlash from religious leaders and was eventually banned by authorities like King Philip of Spain.

• AJ Jacobs (19:36): “A preacher said, the devil, in the fullness of his malice, first invented ruffs.”

Noel Brown raises an intriguing question about the origin of the term "ruff," pondering whether the bird or the fashion trend came first—a mystery still unresolved.

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Chopines: The Perilous Platform Shoes

Exploring footwear, the hosts examine the Chopines, towering wooden platform shoes worn by women in 16th-century Europe.

• AJ Jacobs (24:29): “Originally to keep the shoes out of the mud… they grew to almost 20 inches tall.”

These shoes were not only impractical, resembling stilts, but also hazardous, leading to frequent injuries. Shakespeare himself mocked the Chopines in his works, and like other extravagant fashions, they faced criticism from the Puritans.

• Ben Bolan (26:23): “So, that's when Puritans came in… not very fans of monarchy either.”

The discussion highlights how such exaggerated fashion choices contributed to societal tensions leading to significant historical events like the French Revolution.

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Nudism and the Naturist Movement: A Bold Rebellion

AJ Jacobs introduces the topic of nudism as a form of protest against oppressive fashion norms.

• AJ Jacobs (36:11): “They believed that clothing was an oppressive capitalist conspiracy.”

The naturist movement sought to eliminate clothing to dismantle social hierarchies reinforced by fashion. However, this movement faced severe opposition, notably from the Nazis in the 1930s, who viewed nudism as a threat to societal morals and gender relations.

• AJ Jacobs (38:48): “The Nazis went on a campaign against nudism because it threatened the morality of the Volk.”

Noel Brown reflects on the movement's dual role in challenging both fashion oppression and body shaming.

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Sumptuary Laws: Then and Now

Ben Bolan and AJ Jacobs discuss sumptuary laws, historical regulations that dictated what individuals could wear based on their social status.

• Ben Bolan (29:59): “We could argue that there was a serious state concern that people dressed a certain way might be able to impersonate an authority figure.”

These laws were enforced to maintain social hierarchies, such as restrictions on the color purple, reserved for nobility. The hosts ponder whether similar social agreements continue today, albeit unofficially.

• AJ Jacobs (35:27): “There are always going to be laws about what people can and cannot wear… like you can't just go out and wear nothing, for instance.”

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Reflection on Modern Fashion Trends

As the episode nears its conclusion, the trio reflects on contemporary fashion trends and how future generations might view them with the same ridicule as past fashions.

• Ben Bolan (40:08): “History proves we're about 10 days or 10 years away from all the stuff we like being made fun of on shows like this.”

AJ Jacobs humorously acknowledges the potential for current trends like Crocs to be future objects of mockery.

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Closing Thoughts and Takeaways

Ben Bolan emphasizes the importance of understanding fashion as a conversation across time, urging listeners to appreciate historical contexts before judging past trends.

• Ben Bolan (40:12): “Perhaps the most important point is that we must be hesitant to dunk on fashion of yesteryear too hard.”

AJ Jacobs agrees, highlighting the cyclical nature of fashion and societal acceptance.

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Notable Quotes

• AJ Jacobs (05:18): “They had to stick their heads out the window of the carriage… their heads caught on fire.”
• AJ Jacobs (07:27): “These stays were like proto corsets… They are like boa constrictors around your waist.”
• Ben Bolan (40:12): “Perhaps the most important point is that we must be hesitant to dunk on fashion of yesteryear too hard.”

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Conclusion

"History's Most Ridiculous Clothing, with AJ Jacobs: Part Two" is a captivating exploration of the lengths to which humans have gone to signify status, beauty, and adherence to societal norms through clothing. Ben Bolan, Noel Brown, and AJ Jacobs skillfully blend humor with historical analysis, offering listeners both entertainment and education on the absurdities of fashion across the ages.

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For more insights and discussions on the quirks of history, tune into Ridiculous History by iHeartRadio.

Transcript

[Ben Bolan]

Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to the show, fellow ridiculous historians. Thank you as always, so much for tuning. And let's hear it for the man, the myth legend, super producer, Mr. Max Williams. Look, guys, this is in Media Rest. We're coming to you right at the halfway point of a fascinating conversation with none other than our good pal, AJ Bahamas Jacobs.

[Noel Brown]

Indeed. Why don't we just join the conversation already in progress.

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[AJ Jacobs]

Nice.

[Commercial Voice]

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[Noel Brown]

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[Ben Bolan]

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[Noel Brown]

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[Ben Bolan]

We're building out this concept, this ancient idea of headdress, right? Visual signification of Something like success or authority. What we would call in modern parlance a flex. And that leads us to one thing we have to get to before we travel further down the body of ridiculous fashion trends. Tall wigs. Like big, big, big old wigs.

[AJ Jacobs]

Big old. In fact, the phrase big wig is derived from the fact that people who had. Who were higher on the socioeconomic scale had the big. The bigger the wig, the. The bigger the bank account. I guess so, yes. But the wigs were also incredibly vertical and reached heights of four feet. And this, I'd say the. The height of. Yeah, this is. I mean, it was especially crazy during the lead up to the French Revolution. The famous Marie Antoinette, she was kind of the. They would have these wigs that were made of wire. You needed wire because they were so big, but you needed horse hair and human hair, beef fat to keep it all in place. Tallows, Maybe a little tallow. Yeah. Delicious. You had powder, like powder from wheat and white rice. And this, by the way, was when the peasants were starving. So this was not very beloved when, you know, she's using food in her wig instead of in their stomach. But these, they became crazy tall. It was sort of like a, you know, like the arms race. Who can get the highest. And they were so tall, they would have to stick their heads out the window of the carriage. They would have to be very careful with chandeliers. People's heads caught on fire. And they had not just the hair, but they had all sorts of things in them. They had feathers, flowers, taxidermied birds. To go back to our first hat. Sure.

[Ben Bolan]

Nothing crazy.

[AJ Jacobs]

A battleship. A replica. A replica of a French battleship. Marie Antoinette was famous for that. And, of course, a lot of insects, because you had the beef tallow, and it was just delicious.

[Ben Bolan]

So the insects are non. Consensual ornamentation.

[AJ Jacobs]

That's right. They were not meant to be there, but they added to the fun.

[Ben Bolan]

Oh, my gosh. I love your locust, contessa. Yeah. I love your.

[AJ Jacobs]

I love your.

[Ben Bolan]

Gad, your Mayflies.

[AJ Jacobs]

Your hair is moving around. So interesting.

[Ben Bolan]

So active.

[AJ Jacobs]

Yeah. But, yes. So this literally was one of the complaints that led to the French Revolution. People didn't have anything to eat. I mean, this is. I guess Lady Gaga and her meat dress really would have pissed them off. This idea of these ridiculously tall wigs were just such an obvious status marker that would enrage the lower class. And they paid for it. They paid for it.

[Ben Bolan]

They sure did. Yeah. Someone took something off the top, right?

[AJ Jacobs]

Exactly. More than just the wig.

[Ben Bolan]

More than just the wig. Right. And this leads us to, I think, another. Another important trend that we have to talk about was speaking years ago with a friend of ours, good friend of the show, Holly Fry, from stuff you missed in history class. And in our conversation we noted that quite a few of the fashion trends, regardless where they lay on the spectrum, quite a few of the fashion trends for women and female identifying people were incredibly painful and inconvenient and literally bad for you. Like a far example of that would be foot binding. But there's a lot more to that story.

[Noel Brown]

Well, just corsets and all of that stuff just constricting your movements and just like the idea of suffering for fashion, you know?

[AJ Jacobs]

Yeah. Well, court, let's dive into corsets. And I will say for my year of living constitutionally, I tried to dress the part. So I had to wear the hat, which was not so bad. Socks were kind of a pain in the ass or painted like, because they didn't have elastic. So you'd had to wear these little sock belts. So the amount of time I spent putting on sock belts, I'll never get that back. But I had it easy because my wife was nice enough that she occasionally dressed up and she had to put on these stays, which were sort of proto corsets. And she hated them. I mean, who wouldn't? They are like, they're constricting. They're like boa constrictors around your waist. And some of these corsets, it was a trend that was around in the 1700s, 1800s, and they just got more and more constricting and unpleasant. They were made from all sorts of horrible things like whale bone and metal. And by the end, they would squeeze the woman's waist to 13 inches around. That is crazy. Like, I'm doing my. It's like an Eggo waffle. It is just disturbing. Now, thankfully, not everyone was like, oh, this is wonderful. You had a lot of backlash from sort of proto feminists, early feminists, and also doctors who said it was dangerous and newspaper people. 1891, the Chicago Tribune said the tight lacing has produced generations of invalids and bequeathed to posterity suffering that will not vanish for many decades. Generational suffering that's like, shall not pass from the earth.

[Ben Bolan]

No, it could impede just basic day to day function. When you get down to 13 inches in diameter, that's just. People don't walk away from that, you know, even after you take off the corset, super painful.

[AJ Jacobs]

And you would have to wear increasingly small corsets till you got to that size. And you'd have people pulling. You've seen in the old movies, people pulling on the stairs.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, yeah.

[Ben Bolan]

With like, the foot on the lower back to have the second person helping you strap it up.

[AJ Jacobs]

I mean, that was real. That was real. And one of the. There were all these dress reform movements. One in the French Revolution. Rational dress, they called it. Another in Victorian times, you might have heard of bloomers. Bloomers. So Bloomers were part of the rational dress movement, where women were trying to find. And bloomers were originally sort of like MC Hammer pants for women.

[Noel Brown]

Like, they were parachute pants.

[AJ Jacobs]

Yeah, parachute pants, basically. And they were mocked relentlessly by the press, so they never really caught on.

[Ben Bolan]

But.

[AJ Jacobs]

But that was just one of the ways that they were trying to fight this corporal punishment, that just during the day, they'd have to wear them at night so that they would train their waist.

[Ben Bolan]

That's just. It's okay. It sounds crazy and intensely disturbing for a lot of us listening along in 2025. We do know, however, that, again, this was not the only painful thing people subjected themselves to in the chase of being the most fashionable one. Look, I don't know how painful these are, AJ but one thing a lot of people in the US Remember from their grade school history days is that whenever you saw a picture of a fancy or important person in Elizabethan times, unless they were a member of a church or like a religious official, they had an inexplicable ruff, like a white collar that just, like, went around like somebody took a cupcake wrapper and just popped them in so that their head looked like the cupcake.

[AJ Jacobs]

I love that description. Yeah. I often think they remind me of what my dog had to wear after getting stabbed. Yeah.

[Ben Bolan]

A cone.

[AJ Jacobs]

A cone of shame. Now, I will say I just want to make one note in general, which is that from our point of view, a lot of these fashion trends are ridiculous and some are genuinely harmful, like the corset. But I do want, like, to do a mental experiment. Imagine someone in the future is, like, in school, if they still have those, and they're reading about 20th or 21st century American fashion. And they would read about how these men would spend hundreds of dollars a year on this thin strip of colored cloth that hung around the neck and required elaborate loops, served no purpose.

[Noel Brown]

A cravat, you say?

[AJ Jacobs]

It is a cravat or a necktie.

[Ben Bolan]

Right.

[AJ Jacobs]

So, yeah, we shouldn't be too cocky. I mean, or crocs. Can you imagine what people will say about crocs? I love crocs. I know that it's.

[Noel Brown]

It's a functional shoe.

[Ben Bolan]

It's a dad shoe.

[Noel Brown]

Own it. Own it.

[AJ Jacobs]

I wear it. I wear camo ones so I look really cool and military.

[Ben Bolan]

I love this point because a little while back, fascinated by the same thing that you're mentioning there, we did a ridiculous history episode on the evolution of the necktie. And like so many things, it began with basic function. Yeah. It was military dress. Right. But then aristocrats and well to do people may have seen some of that military dress. That boy is like a functional scarf. You know what I mean?

[AJ Jacobs]

Right.

[Ben Bolan]

And then they said, let's all start doing that and it just accelerated. And now in certain. I love that you're mentioning this. In certain aspects of us or western society, even today, if you go to a place above a certain social echelon, you have to not only practice this weird conspiracy of neckties, but you have to have specific ones like nol sana cravat or a tuxedo party, a black and white party. And if you don't participate in the silliness, then you're not at the top.

[AJ Jacobs]

Now, wait, what is a cravat versus a necktie? I'm not sure. I know.

[Ben Bolan]

Well, it's really. I would say it goes down more to the knot. Like a cravat is gonna be a little more loosely knotted.

[AJ Jacobs]

Interesting. Oh yes, that makes sense.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah. And then got the, you know, the Windsor and whatnot for your typical day trader tie.

[Commercial Voice]

Right.

[AJ Jacobs]

And one other tie question. Was there any truth to that? It was a napkin at one point?

[Ben Bolan]

I would say there is. From what we found in our research, there is probable partial truth to that because the military members that were wearing these as scarves when they're in the field, they're using it as a catch all thing. Sort of like the, the towel in Douglas Adams works. You know what I mean? They always have, you know, they have a washcloth now. They could maybe try to strain water, sop wounds. And then if they're eating, you know, clean their faces up because they were probably, they were probably beardy. Right. Who has time to shave?

[AJ Jacobs]

Well, I love that. I mean, now I think it's actually very useful because it's. You can't lose it, you can't lose a tie. So if we go back to using it as a napkin and a towel, then maybe that would make sense.

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[AJ Jacobs]

Nice.

[Commercial Voice]

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[AJ Jacobs]

But anyway, you did bring up these crazy white collars that they had in.

[Ben Bolan]

Elizabethan times, which were not napkins, right?

[AJ Jacobs]

They were not napkins. They were purely ornamental, although I imagine they did catch food so you could like save them for later. But they were like, they were called ruffs. And the biggest ones were they made of six yards of cloth. That's a lot of cloth. And they would, they would fold them in these little pleats, up to 600 pleats. They would go out like 8 inches from your neck. And they were just absolutely absurd. And even people at the time thought that they were absurd. And including religious people. Preachers called them the tools of Satan. One preacher said, the devil, in the fullness of his malice, first invented roughs. So, yeah, they were. And they were sort of again, a class distinguisher. The richer you were, the bigger your rough. And they were banned. The Puritans hated them, of course, but they were also banned by King Philip of Spain, who was trying to reduce the power of the nobles. There were colored ruffs that were very controversial. There was a famous woman who was convicted of murder in 1613 and she was alleged to have invented the yellow ruff, which was like even more offensive than the white ruffians.

[Noel Brown]

Can I just say that I'm a little bit of a conundrum? I am afraid of birds, but I have in the last year or two become very fond of the board game Wingspan, which is a bird based strategy game. And it's a lot of fun, highly recommended. But there are these cards that are different birds and tells you little details about them. And there is a bird called a ruff. And the question occurred to me that has this plumy thing around its neck, what came first, the ruff the bird or the ruff the fashion trend? And I'm trying to figure that out. And the Internet is very confused about this. And the one Guardian article that seems to fully go into it is behind a paywall and I can't get to it. So we'll just have to chicken or the egg. That for now, so to speak.

[AJ Jacobs]

To use a bird metaphor.

[Noel Brown]

Indeed.

[AJ Jacobs]

Nicely done. Well, that is fast. And I have heard great things about that game. I actually bought it and I spent like two hours reading the instructions and I still don't know how to play.

[Ben Bolan]

So one of those Just when you get down, when you get over this way, or when we're up that way, let's just make a night.

[AJ Jacobs]

All right?

[Noel Brown]

Absolutely. I have the expansion, the Eastern European expansion with the nectar and everything. It is one of those games, aj, where it has quite the learning curve, but once you push yourself over it, it is so rewarding. And such a Zen, lovely game. And it's a less of a competitive game and more of like a kind of let's all just hang out and be part of this ecosystem together kind of game.

[AJ Jacobs]

Love it. Yeah. I've heard it from many, including people who actually do like birds. So imagine how much they like it as one.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, yeah. All about it. We also, I have one question going back to what you were saying to AJ about ruffs. Does it. A question for the group. Am I a dummy? For, like, the first time I saw a ruff, I assumed it looked like there was a connecting piece that would go over it. I didn't think it would be possible for people to wear just this gaudy circle of fabric without, you know, some other, like, attachment.

[AJ Jacobs]

Like. Like a space helmet.

[Ben Bolan]

Like a space helmet, yes. Just so anachronisms aside, that's kind of what I was thinking. I was like, maybe a plague helmet or something. You know, maybe they just want to look ready. But as. As we have learned, and as your research shows, this was entirely to indicate status. This was not functional.

[AJ Jacobs]

And you did. You did need wires. Like, it couldn't just. Maybe that's the problem. It couldn't just hold its shape itself. Like the wigs, like some of the huge crazy dresses. They needed metal support.

[Ben Bolan]

Absolutely. Okay. All right. And I love the tools of Satan. I love how it sounds like, one, Satan is real. And two, was having, like, a slow week and was kind of just sort of out of ideas at 4:30 on a Friday and said no silly collars. That's what they. Silly collars is the new malice for now, right?

[AJ Jacobs]

Torture. You've got murder. And these big collars. I do love what they condemned as satanic. I remember doing a history of utensils, like eating utensils. And the forks, I remember were the puritans. They hated the forks as the tool of the devil. Again, the tool of the devil.

[Ben Bolan]

So it's just like knife, spoon, hand.

[AJ Jacobs]

Yeah. Like God gave you hands for a reason. That was his argument in the sermon. God gave you hands. I guess he liked Ethiopian food.

[Ben Bolan]

There we go.

[AJ Jacobs]

Yeah.

[Ben Bolan]

Get some tibs. So what's that amazing bread injera?

[AJ Jacobs]

Oh, yeah. I Don't remember the name.

[Ben Bolan]

That's the, you know, like the.

[AJ Jacobs]

Oh, yes. Spongy, delicious.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, yeah. Oh, man. We should go to an Ethiopian restaurant and then play Wingspan.

[AJ Jacobs]

It's what God wants us to do.

[Ben Bolan]

It's what God wants us to do. And as we are further exploring ridiculous clothing trends of yesteryear, we're moving down the body and then we're going to something that remains a hot button issue for a lot of people today. Shoes, like hats, can wax and wane in the world of fashion. Right. As you noted, and any cinephile can see, in the golden age of Hollywood and other earlier iterations of fashion, it was common for guys to wear hats. It was considered kind of low and working class if you didn't have a hat. But no matter how ephemeral fashion can seem, people always need shoes, Right? Most of the time you need shoes.

[AJ Jacobs]

Absolutely. And those shoes can become ridiculous, to use an appropriate word. They can get reinvented.

[Noel Brown]

That word. We coined it. Can you believe it?

[AJ Jacobs]

Nicely done. I've. I've been. Found it very useful. Yeah. Either in height or in length. These shoes seem to have grown in different ways. Height wise. There were the. Probably the height, no pun intended, of the height was the Chopines. I believe I'm pronouncing that correctly. This was around Shakespeare's time, 16th century, it was in Europe, especially Italy. And these were women's shoes that were elevated. And if you go and Google the images, they're hilarious because they grew and grew and grew. Originally it was to keep the shoes out of the mud. And they would have these little platforms of wood, but they grew to be like almost 2ft tall, like 20 inches. They were like stilts. They were wood and cork and velvet. And these women were walking on stilts and they needed a cane or they needed a servant because you can't just walk around on two foot tall stilts unless you're a circus performer. And they led to a lot of, of course, injuries and spills. They were mocked by Shakespeare himself who said, and Hamlet, he said that the Chopin was near made women near to heaven. The altitude of the Chopin, which is sort of like the higher the hair, the closer to God sort of that. And eventually they caused a backlash as well. The Puritans, of course, hated them. Tools of the devil.

[Ben Bolan]

Now hang on, hang on. I'm going to stop us here real quick because from what you're describing about these Puritan folks, they seem kind of uncool, not great or like very strict.

[AJ Jacobs]

They are tough. Yes. They have their pros and cons. I probably wouldn't want to be a.

[Ben Bolan]

Puritan because you're super into forks. Right? It's just forks.

[AJ Jacobs]

And I love high heels and ruffs. But yeah, I mean the good part is they were very against the corruption of the Church of England and all of that. So they had that going for them. They didn't like, or at least some of them hated monarchy. I'm not a big fan of monarchy, so, you know, everyone has their pros and cons, but I probably would not want to party with them on a Saturday night.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, yeah. I think they probably also would find parties as a concept ungodly and evil. But then, you know. Yeah, there are strong reasons to object to monarchies. We're with you on that one. Just as a concept, it's a weird idea. And this leads us to one of the most glamorous, one of the most diva esque, one of the most extra monarchs in European history. A guy humbly called Louis.

[AJ Jacobs]

Yes. King Louis xiv. He was the Sun King, right? Wasn't that him? He was like self proclaimed super humble dude. Super humble, right, super humble. And one example of his humility is that he didn't want anyone taller than him. He didn't want. No one could wear heels that were higher than his heels. And also red heels. He was banned those for some reason. It reminds me of actually there was a friend of mine, I've never been to this party, but apparently a friend of mine threw a party where everyone was required to be the same height. So you sent in your height before the party and he would provide these little platform stilt shoes so that everyone was the same eye level with the tallest person. I love that idea. I think that's really interesting. How would that change social dynamics? But King Louis XIV would not throw or attend that party. That's my point. That's why I brought it up.

[Ben Bolan]

It just seems so. It seems so unnecessarily weird to say, like imagine if you were the president of a country and you say, I like Air Jordans and no one else can have them. You know what I mean? Like that's bad for the Nike company. This is weird for the folks making the cobblers, making King Louis shoes. And it sounds like again, as you maintained earlier, there are some reasons that the French revolted.

[AJ Jacobs]

Right. And there's a halt. That actually is a phrase called sumptuary laws, which you've probably heard of. Yeah, the laws that ban certain clothes and sometimes they're because it's a Religious ban so that you don't look to. You don't look. You're not too much like a peacock. You have humility. But sometimes it's the powerful people saying, only we can wear these clothes. And that you had a lot with the color purple actually was banned in Rome. And I think in England, only the nobles were allowed to wear the color purple because. Yeah, you don't want these peasants to upstage you with their colorful fashion.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah. And there is. I hate the devil's advocate here, but we could argue in sumptuary laws, back in that time, we could argue that there was a serious state concern that people dressed a certain way might be able to impersonate an authority figure.

[AJ Jacobs]

Right, There you go.

[Ben Bolan]

So feels so weird to defend what I think is just a cartoonish policy, but maybe that was it, because not everybody had the Internet. Okay, sorry, fact check us. Before the email, no one had the Internet.

[Noel Brown]

Technically the truth, they just had the town crier.

[Ben Bolan]

They had the town crier. That's an excellent point. Yeah. They had the guy who would run out and say, some people are wearing purple.

[Noel Brown]

Stone them.

[Ben Bolan]

I picture the town crier always. You know, I know we all have this trope of some guy going, hear ye, hear ye. But I always like to think of the town crier as just like a grizzled early 1980s comedian. You know, he's in the town square.

[Noel Brown]

He'S like, all right, stand up. That's absolutely true.

[Ben Bolan]

Be here, Max. He's like, oh, what else? Okay. He checks his scroll and he's like, yeah. The plague. Huh?

[AJ Jacobs]

You ever notice that? The plague.

[Ben Bolan]

I haven't noticed.

[AJ Jacobs]

That's a great point. They were the first stand up comedians. Love it.

[Ben Bolan]

I mean, they probably had a high turnover rate depending on their material.

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[AJ Jacobs]

Nice.

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[Ben Bolan]

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[Noel Brown]

So where do you go next? Back to ebay.

[Ben Bolan]

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[Ben Bolan]

Ebay things people love. But we do know these sumptuary laws are things that can be found continuing in some places today. Sometimes there might be a hard law against it. But then I would argue often Noel and I talked about this a little bit a while ago. Often there are these sort of social agreements that are not legally enforceable on what is or is not considered a costume versus regular clothing. Like we're wearing tricorn hats now and if we got together and we walked out to, you know, just go hang out in a public park, people would assume that we are having a party with a theme or that we are like filming a music video or something. So do you see sumptuary laws continuing into the future?

[AJ Jacobs]

Well, first of all, that's a great point. I Am very grateful for my tricorn hat because as part of my year of living constitutionally, I also bore a musket. And if I had borne a musket without my hat, I think I would have been arrested and thrown. But people were like, oh, he's just dressing up. Well, I think however you define it.

[Ben Bolan]

They saw the gun and then they saw the hat and the cop said, ah, let's keep going.

[AJ Jacobs]

Exactly, I would say. I mean, there, as you say, there's always going to be laws about what people can and cannot wear. Like you can't just go out and wear nothing, for instance. Even in modern day America, there are laws against that, obscenity laws. And they're probably. It's sort of like the First Amendment. There's going to be exceptions. There's always going to be exceptions. And although I will say that was the final chapter in our history of ridiculous clothing is just that, no clothing at all.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, my goodness, the nudist.

[AJ Jacobs]

Yeah, we're doing the nudist, the naturist movement, to be a little more what they like to call themselves. But I was fascinated and I only learned this while researching the First Amendment. But one of the big cases of First Amendment rights, and this was when the ACLU was just starting, was nudism. There were all these people in New York City who were nudists and they weren't hippie dippy. They were, in fact, they were more Marxist. They were socialists, and they believed that clothing was an oppressive capitalist conspiracy.

[Noel Brown]

Because I could get behind that to a degree, you know.

[AJ Jacobs]

Well, they said, you know, the rich people can afford clothing and differentiate themselves. So the solution is get rid of clothes. That's the solution. And the ACLU went all in and supported them in their. In several court cases in favor of nudism. And I think that still remains something that their cases.

[Noel Brown]

I think that it's such an interesting kind of protest because it represents a lot of things. On the one hand, it seems to be a strike against kind of puritanical ideas and sort of body shaming notions and the idea of our naked human forms being somehow unclean or, you know, against God or whatever. Even though God supposedly, if he exists, created this, why is it such a horrible thing? So I think that's interesting because it's striking out against sort of oppressive fashion notions and the idea of only being considered an active member or a, I guess, upstanding member of society if you dress the part. But it also strikes out against this idea of like our bodies being something to be ashamed of. I mean, maybe I'm overthinking it, but I think it's interesting.

[AJ Jacobs]

I mean, it's very. And in fact, this swayed me more towards the side of nudism. In the 1930s, the Nazis in Germany went on a campaign against nudism because it threatened the morality of the Volk and it deadened women's natural feelings of shame. Isn't that nice? And destroyed men's respect for women. And they wanted to destroy it because it was sort of a socialist Marxist movement. But listen, if the Nazis were against it, maybe there's something to it.

[Noel Brown]

I think that's probably true.

[Ben Bolan]

Nazis are against it in general. I think we should be for it now. Call me biased, but I don't think they were great. This is something that we can all learn more about in AJ Bahamas Jacobs newest book, the Year of Living Naked.

[AJ Jacobs]

Right, that's it exactly. I'm doing it now. Let me take off my shirt.

[Ben Bolan]

A year of living biblically, Year of living naked. Incredible.

[Noel Brown]

Incredible.

[Ben Bolan]

I hope you do most of your research in the summer, Right? Just for weather purposes.

[AJ Jacobs]

That's true. It matters a lot. Well, that's why I'll be visiting Atlanta a lot.

[Ben Bolan]

Yes, please do. And in the meantime, AJ this is likely going to be a two part series. We cannot thank you enough for joining us on Ridiculous History this week. One of the big themes that you taught us this week that we can all agree on is that fashion is a conversation. And perhaps the most important point is that we must be hesitant to dunk on fashion of yesteryear too hard. Because history proves we're about 10 days or 10 years away from all the stuff we like being made fun of on shows like this.

[AJ Jacobs]

Exactly. And maybe not even like Crocs, for instance. You were. I think people are mocking it even as we speak. But yeah, no, listen, I love being on your show no matter what I'm wearing, whether it's. Or if I'm wearing nothing at all. You provide such a delightful product. Can I call it a product?

[Noel Brown]

Oh, of course. A podcast product. I love that.

[Ben Bolan]

It's like pork.

[Noel Brown]

And can I just say, A.J. i think I said this off mic, but you make Thursday feel like Friday, my friend.

[AJ Jacobs]

Oh, my goodness, that is. Well, thank God it's Thursday. I'm happy for sure.

[Ben Bolan]

Right? TGIT a broadcast, AJ before you hop out for further adventures, where can people learn more about your work?

[AJ Jacobs]

Well, there's the Puzzler podcast with guests such as the wonderful Michael E. In black. Yes, he was one, but I was Going to mention Ben Bolan and Noel Brown, two of our favorites.

[Noel Brown]

Flattery will get you somewhere.

[AJ Jacobs]

But yeah, I have a website. AJJacobs.com. oh, I have a substack.

[Noel Brown]

Explain to me what a substack is. It is just like a gussied up mailing list. Are we bringing back the mailing list?

[AJ Jacobs]

Exactly. It's a newsletter, but it's called a substack. And you're supposed, if I were a good substacker, I would make people pay for my stuff. And substack doesn't like me because I'm not aggressive enough with my sales. I give it all away for free.

[Noel Brown]

On the contrary, that makes you an excellent substacker. You're a substacker for the people.

[AJ Jacobs]

There you go.

[Ben Bolan]

Substacker for the people.

[AJ Jacobs]

Yeah, like the nudist. I'm a socialist substacker.

[Ben Bolan]

Right, Officer? I'm naked for the people right now.

[Noel Brown]

And weirdly, substack is also a euphemism for the penis.

[AJ Jacobs]

There you go. There you go.

[Noel Brown]

That's all I got to say.

[Ben Bolan]

Well, aj, of course, we can't thank you enough for joining us today. Also, big thanks to our super producer, Mr. Max Williams. Big thanks to. It's weird because we usually shout you out in the credits, man.

[Noel Brown]

Every episode. Can you believe that? What's wrong?

[Ben Bolan]

But you're here right now.

[Noel Brown]

We're so thirsty.

[Ben Bolan]

So big thanks also to are our composer, Alex Williams. Jonathan Strickland, AKA the Quizter. Hey, Noel. It'd be interesting to get those guys together, huh?

[Noel Brown]

Oh, man, sure. Can you imagine? It would open up a black hole in time and space. A rift, Suck us all into our death. No, I think it would be fun and worth testing.

[Ben Bolan]

See, because AJ's so nice and Jonathan Strickland, aka the Quister, is.

[Noel Brown]

He's a real grouch.

[Ben Bolan]

Do you like how I just stopped on that one?

[Noel Brown]

It's okay. It's okay. I'll say it for both. Both of them. Huge.

[AJ Jacobs]

Thanks.

[Noel Brown]

Christopher Haotes. And he's Jeff Coates. Both here in spirit, as per usual. Let's see what you got. Your buddy Rachel. Big Spinach Lance underwater. That's true. That's true. We need to bring her back. She's so cool. Have you heard about this person, aj? She's an underwater explosions expert.

[AJ Jacobs]

Wow.

[Noel Brown]

Not that she makes them, but she studies the history of them. And she, I believe, wrote a book about the Hunley, the Civil War era submarine and the sinking thereof that Clive Kussler was so fascinated with.

[AJ Jacobs]

No.

[Ben Bolan]

Okay, I'M in World Class Expert.

[AJ Jacobs]

Yeah, I am listening. But you've had her on, right? I'm going to let go Listen once.

[Noel Brown]

Once. And yet we thank her at the.

[Ben Bolan]

End of every episode because the fame got to her. No, no, we're kidding. And also ridiculous historians. Join us next week. We have even more stuff to check out with you. In the meantime, tune into the Puzzler. And Noel, thanks to you man.

[Noel Brown]

Hey, you as well, buddy. We'll see you next time folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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[AJ Jacobs]

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