← Ridiculous History
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- [00:00]
A
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you as always, so much for tuning in. We are so over the moon to be joined again with our super producer, Mr. Max Williams. Yeah, he's a wild werewolves of lust. Well, yeah, you got three. You got three handsome lone wolves here teaming up for part two of how dogs went domestic. They call me Ben Bollen in this part of the world. And you, sir, often go by the sobriquet Noel Brown.
- [01:03]
B
Tis true. And I once saw Max Williams drinking a pina colada at Trader Vicks. And his hair was perfect.
- [01:11]
A
He's got great hair. He really does.
- [01:13]
B
Good head of hair on that guy. At least have a lot of it.
- [01:17]
A
Almost dog like we're doing segues. So in part one, we explored the ongoing mystery, the ongoing scientific discourse about how a now extinct version of gray wolves could end up becoming the Great Danes, the Saint Benaz, the Schnauzer Schnauzers, the humble beagle. Come on, we gotta talk about the basset hound, the bloodhound, the shizus, the Pomeranians.
- [01:52]
B
Man, way to keep it clean with your pronunciation.
- [01:54]
A
The Tibetan mastiffs. Well, I have a shizu in my family. Uh, and I just can't believe you would. I love the guy.
- [02:03]
B
I just can't believe you would squander an opportunity to say. Just to say the dirty way.
- [02:07]
A
I. I have too much respect for him. The only thing I don't like about that dog is that his name is Leo, which is technically a terrible name for a dog.
- [02:17]
B
Yeah, my name's practically Leo in reverse. Yeah, think about it.
- [02:22]
A
You're like a Leon.
- [02:23]
B
I'm a Leon World. You know, it's funny, I don't think we're gonna get into this too much today, but it may well be fodder for a third episode, maybe down the line. But all of the crazy inbreeding that goes into dogs that yield some of these creatures that, you know, maybe shouldn't quite exist and that have, like, some pretty significant challenges. Let's just say, like the humble bulldog that really can't breathe super well.
- [02:50]
A
Yeah. Nor reproduce that well. This is an excellent setup, Noel. Please tune in to part one, where we explore as three huge fanboys, the story of wolves to dogs. This is part two. We teased it a little bit, but we're not gonna leave you hanging without a dope beat to step two. It's time to talk about domestication.
- [03:14]
B
Step two.
- [03:15]
A
Step two.
- [03:16]
B
Step two. Okay.
- [03:17]
A
Part two.
- [03:17]
B
Yeah. Many times in part one have really thrown my support behind this discussion of domestication. It is an often misunderstood concept. We sort of hinted at some of the early forms of domestication that were a little more circumstant. I believe it was commensal domestication, which is basically just like circumstances that yielded some changes, but not with the abject intervention of humans quite yet. Which is what we're getting to now. That's what I was just sort of throwing around.
- [03:49]
A
Yeah, commensal domestication meaning our earlier exploration the idea of domestication as a two way street. Check out our earlier stuff they Don't Want yout to Know episode regarding the idea that plants may have domesticated humans. And as we'll see, maybe the wolves turning into dogs had a little bit of a pushback or a touch on their human pals as well.
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- [06:41]
A
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- [06:42]
B
Shoot. No the Wells Fargo Active Cash credit card. Visit wells Fargo.com ActiveCash Terms apply the Oxford English Dictionary what a tome defines domestication thusly the process of taming an animal and keeping it as a pet or on a farm. But as we indicated more than once in part one, that is an incredible oversimplification of the concept because we even had a whole section about like, what's the difference between taming and domesticating? And they're not exactly the same. So I don't know, Oxford. I think we might need a little bit more context here.
- [07:21]
A
Yeah, swing and a miss. Oed. With all due respect, swing and a miss. Whiffed on that one. Domestication is not taming. Taming an animal refers to the process of training a non human animal to be comfortable around humans, to follow certain basic commands. This is often done with wild animals to make them more manageable and less aggressive. You can see so many videos of this on your favorite social media platform of choice, your TikTok, your Instagram, your YouTube. Oh, we've befriended a wild hippo and taught this hippo to live amongst us. We boas.
- [08:12]
B
Or if in the seminal 2000s nature documentary by our boy Werner Herzog, Grizzly man. Wherein that type of thinking, spoiler alert, ends up with the humans being brutally devoured, devoured, eaten by wild bears. Because they're not super good candidates for domestication, are they Ben?
- [08:33]
A
No, they're not, Noel. They're good candidates for taming and we'll see the difference here. Another good comparison would be the crows that I have befriended in various parts of the world. Like, clearly those guys are wild animals. They're savage af, but they are intelligent and they can work together with humans on certain things. But they are by no means domesticated.
- [09:03]
B
Especially when you raise both arms up like the Night King and they just flock to you and do your bidding.
- [09:08]
A
Oh, that's because I have eggs in my pockets. Oh yeah.
- [09:11]
B
I was wondering what that sound was.
- [09:13]
A
So this idea of taming an animal, it's not gonna change the animal's genetic makeup nor its behavior. Instead it, it occurs on an individual level again as a two way street. You're teaching maybe one grizzly bear raised as a cub to respond in a non threatened, non threatening way to one human. But if that bear has a cub, that cub is going to be like my old college roommate set Savage af.
- [09:51]
B
Absolutely. And like I said with the Timothy Treadwell example, that was the titular grizzly man. You know, he had really good experiences kicking it with grizzlies in the wild. And he felt that his behavior and the way he was interacting with them was conducive to a good like symbiotic relationship with them. Until the moment that it wasn't. He wasn't exactly training them, he was just sort of like living amongst them. And it seemed like it was going fine until the moment that for whatever reason that wild instinct kicked in and things went very poorly for the grizzly man.
- [10:21]
A
But is acclimating himself.
- [10:24]
B
Acclimating himself, exactly.
- [10:26]
A
And this also. We just have to put the PSA in here folks. A wild animal being acclimated to human contact can be dangerous for all life forms involved.
- [10:40]
B
100%. And I mean let's maybe give slight benefit of the doubt to Oxford. The folks find folks over the Oxford English Dictionary taming on a long enough timeline through multiple iterations and generations I guess is a better word, is kind of domestication, you know, can lead to.
- [11:00]
A
Can be.
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B
Right?
- [11:01]
A
Yeah, for sure.
- [11:01]
B
Yeah. And I love we're going to get eventually into some of the very important qualities that make an animal domesticatable. I'm not, I can't wait to get to it. That's the part that just really blew my mind. I'm super excited.
- [11:14]
A
All right, so domesticating animals, not taming them. Right. You can tame a wolf, you cannot domesticate a wolf. When people attempted to tame wolves or domesticate them over time, they ended up with dogs. So it involves our earlier conversation about artificial V, natural selection, selective breeding. Just like Gregor Mendel figured out with those pea pods over many generations.
- [11:48]
B
You.
- [11:48]
A
Can kind of decision tree reproduction to have a higher probability of exhibiting traits that you perceive as desirable. Which is why domesticating an animal will change its genetic makeup, meaning it changes its physical and behavioral traits. Domesticated animals are often dependent upon humans for their survival. They've adapted to living in close proxim to humans the same way that a hippopotamus has adapted to living around water.
- [12:25]
B
Well, and while domesticated animals certainly there is a possibility that they could do okay if they were to be, let's say, an indoor outdoor cat. Right.
- [12:34]
A
They could go feral.
- [12:35]
B
They could go feral or they come back and everything's fine. It just kind of depends on what happens out in the wild. Right?
- [12:42]
A
Yeah. And cats are a special case, perhaps an episode for another day because oh man, people loved cats. People still love cats even not counting toxoplasmosis Gandhi. That's true.
- [12:55]
B
You get what I'm saying though, Ben? Like, is there something that in like let's say you adopted a cat from being wild, like a cat that was like, you know, born feral and then you, I guess the term would be trained that cat and then it were to be released out in the wild, would it immediately go back to its wild roots or would it retain the kind of training or I guess sort of domestication light that you imparted on it?
- [13:25]
A
It's a fascinating question. One good avenue for us to explore that through would be the case of the pig. A pig is domesticated at least twice throughout human history and spread around the world. But we know well when pigs are released into the wild or when they escape, they can quickly return to their natural behavior. They'll grow hair, they'll grow the tusk.
- [13:55]
B
Starts to resemble more of a wild boar, just so.
- [13:58]
A
And reproduce with such. The key difference between taming and domesticating animals is honestly the level of human intervention. You can tame individual animals relatively quickly, depending on the animal and depending on your own vibe. Check roll for initiative. But domestication is, to your point, long term process. It requires multiple generations, breeding selection, artificial kind of stuff.
- [14:29]
B
Well, that's right. And chances are in the cat scenario that I was describing, whether the cat being a stray isn't the same as a cat being wild, right?
- [14:39]
A
No, there are again, I feel like we should make a different episode on the house cat in general. The house, it is sort of a.
- [14:49]
B
Special case, isn't it? Even. Even in terms of a lot of the stuff we're talking about here.
- [14:52]
A
Yes, very much so. And maybe we think of it this way. Taming is not to go back too far into my hip hop roots, but taming is an each one teach one situation. Right. If you make friends with that grizzly bear, it might not be friends with other humans just over the jump. When it reproduces, the creatures it makes will be wild. Domestication is a group effort and it has serious genetic, physiological, and, as we'll see today, psychological changes to a species.
- [15:31]
B
That's right. Let's see, we've got a great line from archaeologist Angela Perry of the University of Nevada in Las Vegas, who commented on the improbability of hunter gatherers abducting and taming wolves. Right. Which we had already said in the first episode was kind of a debunked, more or less debunked version of events here. This is what she had to say. I don't know that many hunter gatherers would have had the time or patience to deal with a wolf pup. We kind of talked about that, too in part one, and I don't know why they would want to. Sorry. We really did kind of lean pretty heavily into that. At that point in history, it would have been massively inconvenient to do any of those things because it would have required so much attention, so much, again, training, and without the proper knowledge on how to go about these things, you'd have basically like a little predator amongst you.
- [16:22]
A
It would also be, at that point extremely inconvenient to stay alive as a human without having man's best friend. But thank you to any ancient communities who are somehow alive and listening to podcasts. Thanks for giving us dogs. Domestication gives superpowers in a kind of Faustian bargain. We know that wolves and dogs, again, can indeed reproduce. You know, this is where you get wolf dogs, koi dogs, things like that. Koi dogs being coyote and dog, wolf dogs being wolves and dogs. But we also know that a domestic dog, from the day it is born, shows marked differences to every other single kind of canid out there.
- [17:14]
B
Sure. And I'm sorry, I keep coming back to this because I know it's different, but I'm getting what you're meaning when you're talking about the house cat. Even a quote unquote domesticated house cat, when exposed to, like, prey, will tear that stuff up, you know, like an absolute apex predator. Whereas a, you know, domesticated dog kind of just wants his kibbles, you know?
- [17:36]
A
Yeah, well, I mean, house cats have.
- [17:39]
B
It both ways almost, right?
- [17:41]
A
Yeah. Again, very different case. They're. They're kind of bracketed with an asterisk in the story of domestication. If we're going to dogs, we're going to look at something like. There's this excellent study. Cooperative communication with humans evolved to emerge early in domestic dogs. Many authors on this. You should be able to find it online. The lead author is Professor Hannah Solomons, and she shows us that dogs genetically evolve to interact with humans at a level most other non human animals will simply never reach. Take a dog that's born. Take a wolf that's born. The dog puppy is going to naturally be more attracted to humans.
- [18:27]
B
And I do have to wonder if that is in some part one of those sort of, I guess, perfect storms of evolution where that original sort of genesis breed of gray wolf that was just a little bit more kind of predisposed to being chill with humans. If that made such. If that made all the difference, yeah.
- [18:46]
A
Also, dogs are excellent at vibe checks. Dog puppies will use gestures that humans can understand, verbal and nonverbal. They'll make eye contact. They do something called extended gaze way more often than wolf puppies. Like for instance, the best way to end your life in a, in an interaction with a gorilla is to make eye contact. It is seen as a challenge. They will mop you. You can't do it. But, but if you, if you make eye contact with the dog, then it sees your soul.
- [19:28]
B
Or just put your finger out so it can, so it can boop it with its nose. But you know, all along in this conversation we, from the very start, we did talk about the similarity in the way that early humans and wolves hunted. So I do think that there is sort of a chicken or egg question here. Where were they domesticated? Because they already kind of shared some traits, you know, in the way they communicated with one another and the way they executed their hunts. Just some things that were sort of aligned already with the two species. Humans and wolves.
- [20:00]
A
Yeah, yeah. Like I was saying in part one, I think the Venn diagram is our key piece of the puzzle. If we go to folks like Robert Quindlen, professor of anthropology over at Washington State University, we'll see the argument that this domestication process, this co evolution occurred because like the rom com example, wolves and humans already had so much in common. They probably started domesticating each other accidentally in fits and start. Wolves were scavenging the remains of human kills and they probably kicked off the domestication process themselves. It probably was not a case of an enterprising human killing a wolf pack and saving the cubs. They would have just eaten the cubs. I think it's tremendously presumptuous for us to assume humans would have had the foresight to say, hey, let me take the child version of this thing that almost killed me and fall asleep around it. Just roll the dice, see what happens. The wolves were probably the initiators.
- [21:24]
B
Yeah, 100%. I just wanted to use this as a quick opportunity. I think we've discussed this on this podcast as well as on stuff that I want you to know. But the notion of feral children and of the idea of, like, children being raised by wolves, which has kind of become a bit of a parlance, you know, just like. Of like a wild child or whatever, pretty much entirely debunked. Right. We do have a case of sisters, Amala and Kamala, who were found living, you know, rough in the wilderness in India. They were described in scientific writings at the time. I guess, you know, results may vary in terms of how vigilant the science was, but in 1926 as having been quote, unquote raised by wolves in the forests of India, but again, much more likely that they were early examples, early documented examples of autism.
- [22:13]
A
Well, yeah, we do know that. I'm glad you're bringing this up. We do know there are examples of quote, unquote, feral children who were taken care of by animals, but those are exceedingly rare. And the times that those things may have happened, they gave way to a thousand ships of folklore and mythology like Romulus and Remus. That would be the earliest example. Right. Of humans raised by wolves and. Yeah. So it's extremely uncommon for that to occur. Playoffs. We're talking about playoffs.
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Restrictions apply. See website for full details and important safety information. We do know that domestic dogs right now are more vigilant than wolves and they were bred to be increasingly vigilant. This is where we get to, I would say, a morally or ethically gray part of the equation. Domestication does give you superpowers, but it is also a Faustian bargain. Because were these early humans that were breeding dogs to be useful to them, were they not programming those dogs with more anxiety than the dogs would have had if they stayed wolves? How are the dogs always like, what's happening? What's happening?
- [28:16]
B
Yeah, whoa, whoa. Yeah.
- [28:18]
A
What's going on?
- [28:19]
B
Oh, 100%.
- [28:20]
A
Also, dogs learned a language that wolves don't speak. Dogs bark. Dogs can howl just like a wolf, some of them at least. But. But wolves don't bark.
- [28:35]
B
That's true. They growl and they howl, but I don't think I've ever heard a wolf bark. Seen them bite, that's for sure.
- [28:42]
A
Yeah, yeah. Their bite is worse than their bark. So we also see that there's this earlier point we raised about domestication as a two way street. You can argue that the wolves evolving to dogs in that process. They also evolved to hack human psychology. The infantile features. The fancy word for it is pedomorphic.
- [29:12]
B
Which is not a dirty word. You know, the cutie eyes that a dog will make looking up at you all forlorn or excited or whatever. Like that's master's feet. Certainly things like fetching a stick or whatever. Various adaptations that make them more appealing to humans. Humans, because over time those yielded positive survival based results.
- [29:37]
A
Yeah. And we don't have to just speculate about dogs. For this we can see a pretty fantastic experiment from the 1950s that proves this can happen with other things similar to dogs. We know about the Russian scientists, Dmitry Belyaev, who started, he captured a bunch of silver foxes. Ooh.
- [30:03]
B
Like Richard Gere.
- [30:04]
A
Right, right. Got a bunch of zaddies or whatever, whatever you wish to add. These were foxes that would have ordinarily been captured, bred for a bit and then skinned in a fur farm. And he said, what if I try to selectively breed them and make a domestic fox If I make them tamer over time, over each successive generation. And he did just what we think the early humans did. He chose foxes that were bold enough to be around humans, not timid enough to run away, but not too aggressive to instantly bite them in the throat. He chose for tolerance. And lo and behold, over time, these foxes became tamer. However, they also got their floppity ears. Yep.
- [31:01]
B
And their curly Q tails.
- [31:03]
A
Yeah, yeah. They got cuter. They became kawaii.
- [31:07]
B
I was about to say the same thing then. Oh, my goodness. Get out of my head. That's amazing. No, but also, I have to ask, though, why don't we hear about domesticated foxes that much? No, I don't know anybody that has a domesticated fox as a pet. Did this experiment not last?
- [31:22]
A
It did last. I will give you the answers. No, first and foremost, they're kind of clamped down on. It's a little bit difficult to get one, especially if you want to make a breeding population. Here's what I think the real answer is. Fox urine smells terrible.
- [31:45]
B
Really?
- [31:45]
A
It's so bad.
- [31:47]
B
Okay. Huh?
- [31:48]
A
Astonishingly repugnant.
- [31:51]
B
I had no idea. And, you know, I'm glad.
- [31:53]
A
I'm glad. Don't experience it.
- [31:55]
B
No, no.
- [31:55]
A
If you see a fox, just wave, take a picture and go.
- [31:58]
B
I'll give it a pass. I can't help, though, in talking about this experiment here and thinking about one of our very first ridiculous history episodes wherein Napoleon got absolutely inundated by domesticated bunny rabbits.
- [32:13]
A
Mobs.
- [32:14]
B
Yeah, mobs. You know, like totally almost knocked over his coach, his carriage and all that. Because you'll remember, old school ridiculous history heads that they were domesticated, therefore they feared no human. In fact, they loved them just so much. Just wanted to snuggle up on them. As opposed to a wild hare, which would, of course, run from the humans and give chase and be a much more fun experience for a hunt.
- [32:40]
A
Get it? Wild hare.
- [32:42]
B
Yeah, I got it.
- [32:44]
A
So this guy, when he creates these foxes, he notices they bark more, and he also notices that they tend to reproduce more often. These foxes indeed had a lot of the same qualities we see in dogs, but none of the same qualities we see in wolves. Retaining these juvenile features, to your earlier point, it is evolutionarily advantageous. Look at those eyes. Trust me. Say the features. Oh, I'm rolling around my belly with my cute little tail. Help me. Love me.
- [33:24]
B
But it's not manipulation either. It's like behavior that just becomes innate over time because of the positive results that he.
- [33:33]
A
Right. The dogs or the foxes that can do this, are capable of doing this. They are the ones that are more likely to reproduce. This brings us to another superpower of the dog, a superpower of domestication. Facial expressions. If you are in love with dogs and you got a pooch that is very close to you, and you always think, how does this. How's this little doggo know what's going on with me? How does this guy read the room? It turns out it's the Venn diagram thing again. Wolves and humans use facial cues when they are communicating in their social environment in their cohort. But the ability to read facial cues in humans is incredibly enhanced in domestic dogs. That's where they do, like, gaze alternation. So if you, like, if you've ever seen a dog who is trying to get you to help them solve a problem, they might stare at you and just keep flicking their eyes over this way, 100%. What's over there?
- [34:42]
B
What's going on over there?
- [34:43]
A
What's over there?
- [34:44]
B
It's the stick. It's the ball, bro.
- [34:48]
A
You got thumbs, man.
- [34:50]
B
Well, you know, it's funny. A minute ago I said that this behavior wasn't necessarily manipulation, but that, I don't know, I think to me, that opens up a bigger question. It's almost like even we as humans, humans, is anything we do towards anybody showing signs of affection, Is that ultimately just manipulation to get what we want? If you look at it and dissect it and cut it enough ways, the answer could be yes. So the question then becomes, like, are dogs actually. Do they care about us, or are we just a means to an end for them?
- [35:21]
A
Right, yeah. It's a question that plagues all living things. Does altruism exist? Right. So do you want the best for another living thing in the void of reality, or do you only do that because you want the best for yourself? You know what I mean? Yeah.
- [35:40]
B
I mean, you know, you could argue, maybe it's a bit of a nihilist way of looking at it, that any act of kindness is ultimately an act of selfishness because you're doing it to either make yourself feel better or to improve your standing and be seen in a certain way. I don't think that's true. I'm just saying it's getting me thinking about stuff like that, that's all.
- [35:59]
A
Yeah, no, I like it. Let's walk a little further down then. Because you could argue in that vein that the best contrast to that would be the fact that people sometimes help other folks with no external benefit. A lot of folks who are tuning in tonight. Of course, you're the. The best audience in all of podcasting. You've helped a stranger who may have never met you, you may never meet them. You felt better and so optimistic. Nihilism might argue that you did that because it made you feel good. Still, externally, you have no benefit. You simply helped another thing that exists for sure.
- [36:46]
B
And I will say, though, that I think the psychology of the human experience is arguably a little more complex than that of the canine experience. So I think for some people, that internal treat is maybe just as powerful as for the dog, the external treat.
- [37:02]
A
Yeah. And also humans are at a great disadvantage because they're studying themselves.
- [37:09]
B
I would love to hear metacognition.
- [37:11]
A
Yeah. Thinking about thinking. That's metacognition. I would love to hear from a canine psychologist, from a canine behavioral therapist. Right. Why does man fetch?
- [37:25]
B
I did see a headline the other day. I did not read past it, but it said that within a decade or so, we may have technology that will allow us to, quote, unquote, speak to our pets.
- [37:35]
A
Yes. There are things that are quite controversial now. Usually paw pads where the dog can hit a button that will translate to a human noise like walk, treat, et cetera. However, it's still pretty dicey because it goes back to the days of chickens and horses counting in carnivals and sideshows.
- [38:00]
B
Which was a parlor trick.
- [38:01]
A
Which was a parlor trick, absolutely. We're probably going to be able to talk to cetaceans first. There's some really interesting whale. I can't believe I'm saying this on air. Whale translation apps.
- [38:16]
B
Okay.
- [38:17]
A
Are being made brave new worlds, maybe.
- [38:21]
B
In a positive sense for this. I don't know.
- [38:23]
A
Why not? Right at the end. You know what I mean? Right at the end, we'll get some cool stuff.
- [38:29]
B
The end of the podcast or the end of the world?
- [38:32]
A
Nothing. Yeah, right. Right at the beginning of the end of the world. I think our podcast is going to go off on for a while. I'm bullish on that. Yeah.
- [38:41]
B
At least until the end of the world, one would hope.
- [38:43]
A
Yeah, I hope so. I hope you feel the same way, Noel.
- [38:46]
B
I do. Oh, I very much do. I would love to. I would podcast with you from the deck of the Titanic, Ben.
- [38:52]
A
Oh, geez. Yeah. We gotta get a violin guy to play to.
- [38:56]
B
I can play the violin. I'll be. I can be the guy. I can be both guys.
- [38:59]
A
You could be both guys. So. All right, here's the craziest thing. You may be a dog lover and you've Maybe never heard this. This. We said dogs understand things that other non human animals don't. Dogs understand when you nod and they understand why you're nodding and they follow the direction of your face. Dogs are one of the only non human animals that understands what you mean when you point at something. A lot of other primates hear us closely. Primates don't understand pointing. You could be hanging out with a gorilla. Again, no eye contact. Be safe. You could point at something and it would just be like this. Loser. I got fingers too.
- [39:46]
B
I think that Coco the gorilla could understand pointing pretty well, though, if I'm not mistaken.
- [39:50]
A
Ah. Coco can understand hand signals.
- [39:53]
B
Okay, all right.
- [39:54]
A
Depiction.
- [39:56]
B
You're right though, Ben. The idea of pointing. We think of it as obvious. Like, okay, if I'm pointing my finger at a thing, you should direct your gaze to that. But without that context, maybe it is a little more abstract than I've.
- [40:10]
A
Wolves have no idea. Giving it credit, they're like, these guys are doing weird stretches.
- [40:16]
B
But for whatever reasons, you're right. Dogs will direct their gaze in the direction of the point.
- [40:22]
A
Yeah, dogs can read the room just like most humans who are not on 4chan. They walk down the street for that one. Yeah.
- [40:31]
B
Oh, man. Down the rabbit hole.
- [40:33]
A
And no, we gotta get to something called the love hormone.
- [40:37]
B
Well, this is, I think, really, really key in what makes doggos so incredibly appealing as companions to human beings. The idea that a dog can sense the emotional state of a person and act accordingly or react accordingly.
- [40:57]
A
Oh, yeah. Part of it is the amazing sense of smell, the hyper focus on your nonverbal expressions or body language. Also, domestic dogs and their human pals have something called oxytocin. This is why I don't want to anthropomorphize too much. But this is why when you see cute things, you think they are cute. If you are human, when you see, like we were describing, right, the big eyes, the big ears, little tiny mouth. Wasn't that delicious?
- [41:37]
B
So good. Your bill, ladies. I got it.
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A
No, I got it.
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B
Seriously, I insist. I insisted first. Don't be silly. You don't be silly. People with The Wells Fargo ActiveCash credit card prefer to pay because they earn unlimited 2% cash back on purchases. Okay. Rock, paper, scissors for it. Rock, paper, scissors. Shoot.
- [41:57]
A
No.
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B
The Wells Fargo Active cash credit card. Visit Wells Fargo.com ActiveCash Terms apply. Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. This new year, make sure you take some time to take care of yourself and your family. Now through January 28th. Save up to 25% on all your favorite personal care essentials. Shop in store or online and stock up on all your favorite items like Tresemme Shampoo, Axe Deodorant, Dove Bar Soap, Dove Men's Body Wash and Dove Dry Spray. And Save up to 25%. Offer ends January 28th. Restrictions apply. Promotions may vary. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details. My brother in law died suddenly and now my sister and her kids have to sell their home. That's why I told my husband we could not put off getting life insurance any longer. An agent offered us a 10 year, $500,000 policy for nearly $50 a month. Then we called Selectquote. Selectquote found us identical coverage for only $19 a month, a savings of $369 a year. Whether you need a $500,000 policy or a $5 million policy, SelectQuote could save you more than 50% insurance. For your free quote, go to selectquote.com selectquote.com that's selectquote.com select quote we shop you save full details on example policies@selectquote.com.
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A
Commercials with the best All Inclusive Vacation.
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Deals to Mexico and the Caribbean Booking your getaway with Cheap Caribbean Vacations means you have more freedom to do your deal. Whether you want to enjoy snorkeling, endless margaritas and more, or simply soak up the sun and sand in a truck. Tropical Paradise Cheap Caribbean Vacations has your deal for that Plan and book the exact getaway you want at exactly the right price for you by using our exclusive Budget Beach Finder. Or find a featured Adults Only all inclusive package to Secrets, Resorts and spas and do your deal@cheapcaribbean.com the New Year's Here. It's the perfect time to refresh those household essentials and score some cash back rewards with Colgate Palmolive. From toothpaste to dish soap, chances are are you've got Colgate Palmolive products on your shopping list and in your house. Right now we're talking brands like Colgate Soft Soap, Palmolive, Irish Spring, Fabuloso, and Tom's of Maine. And right now you can get up to a $10 digital Visa prepaid card when you buy up to $30 of Colgate Palmolive products. Here's how it Spend $20 on their products get $5 spend $30 get a $10 reward. All you do is shop your favorite brands, snap a pic of your receipt and upload it to cprewards.com. it's so easy. That's cprewards.com so grab what you need or maybe try something new and get rewarded just for doing your usual shopping. And start your year fresh by earning cash back rewards with Colgate Palmolive rewards available while supplies last. Limit supply us only 1125 through 331 25. For full terms and conditions, visit cprewards.com yeah, I mean, there's. There's a reason that, you know, depending on who you are, most people think babies are cute because we're supposed to, like, love them instantly and want to protect them at all costs. And them being cute and having those doughy eyes or whatever, it is a. I guess not skill. What would you call it? Adaptation. Maybe that makes that more likely.
- [45:19]
A
Yeah. So your dog friends are so sensitive to everything about you. When they see you smile, get this, they understand that you are happy. And if you do a fake smile, they'll probably know you're faking it. It makes them happy to see you happy, and then it makes you happy to see them happy. You got a feedback loop. Next thing you know, you have a bro for life.
- [45:46]
B
It's a real love fest. Yeah, again, I mean, I think this is the real crucial feature that makes that bond between a dog and their human so incredibly strong and so incredibly traumatic when a beloved dog passes away. Because it's like losing a member of the family. It's like losing someone that you actually have an emotional connection with because of these exact things that you're describing.
- [46:13]
A
Yeah, 100%. Well said. We know the psychological aspect there. We know the adaptations of domestication. They extend to physiological aspects beyond what you would call retention of juvenile traits. Dogs have developed facial musculature in their evolution. One of the things they could do is furrow the brow, tilt the head. I'm confused. What's going on? Where is the bulk.
- [46:48]
B
The term puppy dog eye, Speaking of, like, domestication, like, of humans by dogs, that's become a term that is applied to the way humans look at each other. Making puppy dog eyes when you want someone to feel a certain way, whether it's a little kid that's trying to get a certain reaction out of their parent. But you're right, Ben. Those changes in muscles and actual development of new muscles and the ability to control them is part of that long game of. Of evolution and domestication.
- [47:19]
A
Yeah. Yeah, you're right. We found a fascinating study. If you go to an animal shelter, and you always should, it's a fun way to volunteer. You will See that? Dogs who have puppy dog eyes, who have that stereotypically worried or sad expression. As humans experience it, they are adopted more quickly, which again shows us that ancient selective advantage. They are genetically programmed to hack the human mind. Unfortunately, this does come with a bit of a price. Go back to our hippo example. If a hippo, as tame as it could be, is abused by humans, it's not going to mess with humans again in a non confrontational way. It is going to hate all humans because it will recognize a threat. But a dog amid so many other animals in this wide world, a dog can be abused by one group of humans and then instantly bond with another group of humans for sure.
- [48:38]
B
But on the flip side of that, I had a situation where a girl I was dating at the time lived with, you know, a couple folks and one of them had a dog who was a rescue as a pit. And they told me he had been. Well, it was more than that. He hated bearded dudes. And I, they had to put this doggo away every time I came over. And over the course of that relationship, I was able to kind of, you know, earn the dog's trust, but it was very innate. Like it was specifically singling out me as a bearded man because they said the person that had him before was. Was a bearded man.
- [49:17]
A
Was a real pos.
- [49:18]
B
Huh?
- [49:19]
A
Real pill.
- [49:20]
B
Yep.
- [49:20]
A
Well, you reached a ceasefire though, which you couldn't do with a. With a wild animal, with most other animals. Right. I got in a situation with a parrot one time and she's terrifying. Yeah. Well, I'm going to be honest with you, as a lover of all animals, I wish that parrot specifically the worst.
- [49:41]
B
Yeah, now just that one. A little more bird hate. Come on, man.
- [49:46]
A
No, just that one. All right, there's just that one. But also, we have to see that there is a higher tendency toward conflict, avoidant behavior toward humans on the part of a dog. And there's this increased inclination to want humans to like you, or at least certain humans. To your earlier example, perhaps most different from wolves in the psychological aspect, dogs are a big fan of learning human rules and remembering those rules and following those rules, all for the approval and consistent food from the humans.
- [50:29]
B
And we are coming right up on, and I think what will be my favorite part of this entire series. Forgive me, Ben, I've teased it multiple times, but I think it's been clear throughout all of our discussions that there are certain animals that are much more inclined towards domestication and it's because of certain traits that they kind of Innately have. Just by virtue of being what they are, that makes them more likely candidates for domestication.
- [50:58]
A
Yes, more domesticatable. God, I love how ridiculous the English language is. Yeah, it's exceedingly rare to domesticate a non human animal. You know what, let's go right to it. Professor Jared diamond over at ucla, probably most famous for his book Guns, Germs and Steel. We know it's a little controversial. He is a prominent author in the vein of Mark Kurlansky or our buddy Yuval Noah Harari, remember that? Sapiens, of course, yeah.
- [51:34]
B
Fabulous, fabulous writer. Really great way of crystallizing some pretty lofty concepts in a very understandable way.
- [51:41]
A
So professor diamond, which is such a ridiculously cool name.
- [51:46]
B
I wonder if he's related to Dustin diamond from Saved by the Bell. He was Screech.
- [51:50]
A
Yeah, Screech has been through it. Also it'd be cool to call him Dr. Diamond. But no, this is something as you said, we're both very excited about. According to professor diamond there are six basic criteria for domesticatability. Which again, English language.
- [52:13]
B
Oh yeah, gotta love it. The first one I think we've made really clear just in this discussion and it makes a whole heck of a lot of sense. The animal needs to be able to eat lots of different things and be kind of malleable in that, you know, not needing to have, have food from a certain type of source every single time. Be willing to like the early wolves, the pre dog wolves live off of the scraps of humans.
- [52:37]
A
Yeah, no picky eaters. And number two, the animals need to grow up quickly or at least faster than humans and often faster than their wild counterparts. Going back to our example about the, the silver or fennec foxes. Think about it again. You're a hunter gatherer, you're a classic human living your classic human life. There's not really a good return on investment for you to domesticate very long lived animals like a Galapagos sea turtle.
- [53:14]
B
Oh yeah, it wouldn't take, or it would just take too damn long.
- [53:19]
A
How are you going to do that? It's going to be years before they're, they're useful. Their reproduction cycle is off. And then also a lot of animals don't like to breed when they feel like they're in jail.
- [53:32]
B
Ben, I gotta ask really quickly just to backtrack, you mentioned tortoises with the long lifespan elephants is another thing that the good Dr. Diamond mentioned. So does that mean there was really no such thing as war elephants? Like we know them in Roman battle scenarios like Illustrations and stuff because was that a real thing?
- [53:51]
A
Great question. Elephants, African and Asian are phenomenally intelligent. They're incredibly smart, smarter than dogs if we're being honest. But they are not domesticated. They can be tamed. And they are often forced into interactions in human society in places like Thailand.
- [54:16]
B
I gotcha. Okay, so this is more of a training situation than, you know, now that I think about it. They often offer like elephant rides at zoos. I think I did that when I was a kid, you know, whatever ethics aside on that. But that makes a lot of sense.
- [54:31]
A
Tamed but not domesticated.
- [54:33]
B
That's right. Because again, the domestication is the sort of long term version of the taming that requires reproduction over, you know, many generations for it to kind of take and to the point of the long lifespan. That is what makes these animals particularly particularly poorly suited to this kind of thing.
- [54:50]
A
Also the third condition, and again this is from Professor Diamond. The animals have to be willing to breed in captivity in close quarters under human supervision. So if you have a bunch of tigers, right, tremendously intelligent animals, I mean they're not as smart as an elephant maybe, but. But they are smart cookies. They are boffins. They need a lot of room. If you put them, if you just put them in a tiny human sized room and say, okay, live together, have issues, we're good.
- [55:30]
B
That's true of even just breeding in general in captivity of the certain species. I heard a really great piece on NPR a couple of months ago about how difficult it is to breed eel in captivity. And there are only a handful of folks, companies or what have you that have kind of this proprietary method of farming eels and breeding them in captivity because they actually typically the largest source of eels, you know, that we see in things like sushi, are fished wild. And there is an overfishing problem with eels because it is so difficult to breed them in captivity.
- [56:04]
A
And they have a very sensitive reproductive psycho as well. Yeah. This leads us to what I would call a soft proposition on Diamond's part number four. Noel, tell me what you think about this. The animals have to be quote, naturally pleasant.
- [56:25]
B
Well, that's an interesting thing because all along we've been talking about sort of the nature of that. First I keep calling it sort of the genesis of the dog, that gray wolf species, that meat cat that meet cute where they were kind of a little more chill. It would seem that they, that particular sub breed or subspecies or whatever you want to call it, there's probably something specific to call it, but I'm not a Scientist. So there was something about their constitution or their kind of demeanor that led to them being a perfect candidate for ultimate domestication. But it's tough because it's like pleasantness. It's very vague, but let's just. Just qualify that a little bit. Calmness, Natural calmness. Certain animals that are skittish or easily spooked, for example, that doesn't bode particularly well for domestication.
- [57:15]
A
Yeah. So number four is naturally pleasant. Number five is calm. Keep your head and your wits about you right when these crazy humans are asking you to fetch them a ball. Number six is one of the most, I think, behaviorally important. The animals need to be willing to recognize humans as part of their in group, as part of their hierarchy.
- [57:43]
B
That's right. And you know, even with certain zoo animals, we know that is a thing that doesn't work with certain types of animals. Like, I believe in China there is a zoo, or maybe this is common practice where in order to raise certain types of pandas, the zookeepers dress up as pandas themselves in order to handle them correctly. And that may well be like, they just don't want them to get too imprinted by humans. So I'm not 100% sure exactly what the end game there is, but to your point, we do know that there are certain animals that are much more likely to be imprinted by humans and ones that really resist it.
- [58:21]
A
Yeah. Also, we got a deal on the costumes. Thanks, Jeff Bezos. And with this, folks, we have have so many other questions and bits of ridiculous history to explore. This conversation about dogs has inspired us. We're going to be making some episodes about dog breeds as well. Please send us your favorites. We will probably also bust some myths about dogs along the way in future episodes. In the meantime, thank you so much for tuning in. Big, big thanks to Our super producer, Mr. Max Williams, who has been a little bit off mic for this episode.
- [59:02]
B
That's okay. We're just getting back from the holidays. We're all getting our sea legs back underneath us. And I think he's still sore at us for. For pointing out the dog stats. I am. Yeah.
- [59:12]
A
Okay, dude. Okay. All right.
- [59:15]
B
I got you slowly, like Homer Simpson into a bush.
- [59:19]
A
I know, but you turned your cat.
- [59:21]
B
That's good. We'd love to see your beautiful face. And a huge thanks to super producer Max Williams. Again, if you already said it, Ben, I'm sorry. I got distracted. Huge thanks to Alex Williams, who composed our theme. And by the way, if you do want to reach out to any of the three of us. Except for Max because he's off the social medias. You can do so Ben, how can people find you if they so wish, on the Internets?
- [59:43]
A
Ah yes. Further into the breach, should you sip the social meads, you can find me calling myself in a burst of creativity Ben Bullen on Instagram. You can find Ben Bullen HSW on X. You can also visit benbolan.com if you want to catch up with hijinks, shenanigans, scenarios and adventures. And while you're, while you're up there, why not check out my good pal Noel Brown's social media presence. Noel, are the Rumors true? True Are youe On Instagram?
- [60:17]
B
All lies. No, it's true. That's the only place I really hang out. You can find me there at How Now, Noel Brown and Ben, can I also just thank you for this incredible deep dive on the history of domestication and really just on doggos in general. Really, really excellent work on these super in depth research briefs. It was a joy to discuss this with you and I'm happy to be back after a sizable break. I think we both enjoy, enjoyed the recharge, but we're back and we're, we're better than ever and excited for a new year.
- [60:47]
A
Oh gosh, thanks for saying that, Noel. It does mean the world. Big thanks, of course, to Eve's Jeffcoat, Christopher Oiotes, the rude dudes at Ridiculous Crime. And if you disagree with my pal Noel regarding this episode, please, please, please always remember we started a complaint department just for you, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, any time of the year. We actually recommend sending it late at night. Jonathan Strickland@iheartmedia.com our official complaint department.
- [61:23]
B
Yeah, he'll definitely write you back, no question. We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Traveling to see your fave sports team is cool, but traveling with AMEX Platinum for the big game is even better.
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With access to dedicated card member entrances at select events, you can skip the line and 1. And with access to the Centurion Lounge, he shoots a 3, you can catch the next game on the way home. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Terms apply. Learn more@american express.com with AmEx card member entrance access not limited to AMEX Platinum Card. Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway this new year. Make sure you take some time to take care of yourself and your Family now. Through January 28th. Save up to 25% on all your favorite personal care essentials. Shop in store or online and stock up on all your favorite items like Tresemme Shampoo, Axe Deodorant, Dove Bar Soap, Dove Men's Body Wash and Dove Dry Spray. And Save up to 25%. Offer ends January 28th. Restrictions apply. Promotions may vary. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details. Did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families. With Greenlight, you can send money to kids quickly, set up chores, automate allowance and keep an eye on what your kids are spending with real time notifications. Kids learn to earn, save and spend wisely. And parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money. With guardrails in place, try Greenlight Risk free today@greenlight.com iheart ABC Tim Allen and Kat Dennings star in the new family comedy Shifting Gears. I'm broke and a place to stay.
- [63:19]
A
Until I figure out what the rest.
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B
Of my life looks like. So a couple of days when his daughter moves back in.
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A
The last time you walked out that.
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B
Door, you looked back at me and.
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A
Gave me a double bird. I was 18. The double bird was how I ended all our conversations.
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B
The wheels come off.
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A
Can we try to talk to each.
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B
Other like rational adults?
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Have you watched the news lately? That's not a thing anymore.
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New Wednesdays 8, 7 Central on ABC.
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And stream on Hulu.
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