Inventors Who Died Due To Their Own Inventions: The Irrational Death of Hippasus

Summary

Ridiculous History: "Inventors Who Died Due To Their Own Inventions: The Irrational Death of Hippasus"

Podcast: Ridiculous History (iHeartPodcasts)
Hosts: Ben Bowlin & Noel Brown
Air Date: March 12, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Ben and Noel take listeners on a journey through ancient Greece and the origins of one of mathematics' weirdest, most mystical concepts: irrational numbers. The focus is on the legend of Hippasus of Metapontum—a Pythagorean philosopher said to have died after revealing a fundamental truth that went against the core beliefs of his secretive numerical cult: some numbers simply can’t be written as tidy fractions. Combining playful banter, historical mystery, and cult intrigue, the hosts unpack why an idea about numbers was considered dangerous enough to kill for—or at least become the stuff of legend.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Setting the Stage: Irrational Segues and Misplaced Hippopotamuses

• Casual catching up leads into the show’s theme: “inventors who died due to their own inventions,” with Hippasus as today’s special (and very irrational) case.
• Misreading the episode title, Noel jokes, “I read it as the Irrational Death of Hippopotamus and I was excited. Cause that would have been a throwback…” referencing previous podcast antics. (07:17)

What is an Irrational Number?

• The hosts dive into the math: Irrational numbers are real numbers that cannot be written as the ratio of two integers—unlike fractions or terminating/repeating decimals.
• Memorable analogy: “Decimals that...just goes on and on and on. No discernible repeating pattern. Right. They continually hide. Pi being a very famous one…” (11:14–11:20, Ben & Noel)
• Examples besides Pi: Euler’s number, the golden ratio, and certain square roots (like √2).
• “For a lot of us, the concept of irrational numbers is not simply paradoxical. It is downright mystical.” (15:02, Ben)

Numbers, Mysticism, and Cults

• The mystical side of math surfaces. Noel likens irrational numbers to magical secrets: “There’s a certain quality of, like, being able to explain the unexplainable... When I think of irrational numbers and like a number that just goes on ad infinitum that starts to kind of pique my interest in that direction.” (11:31)
• Joke about the movie Pi being a “classic buddy comedy” (12:01), reflecting the hosts’ irreverent, pop-culture-laced style.

Enter the Pythagorean Cult and Hippasus (16:32–26:56)

• Pythagoras: Best known for his triangle theorem, but in his day, a genuine cult leader whose followers believed everything in the universe could be explained by rational numbers (whole numbers and fractions derived from them).
  • “He took that thinking and more or less built it into a kind of religion.” (18:26, Noel)
• The Pythagorean cult:
  • Secretive, vegetarian, mystical; believed in “music of the spheres,” sacred geometry, and even prohibited eating fava beans for unclear reasons.
  • “This was a secretive, mystical, communal society. They blended math, philosophy, and interesting religious practices. They were strict vegetarians.” (24:57, Ben)
• Hippasus: Early member, “from Metapontum—a little village right there on the coast of modern day Greece. Seems like a lovely place to vacation.” (17:00–17:22, Noel)

Discovering the Unthinkable (31:35–32:51)

• Hippasus, while exploring geometric shapes (dodecahedrons, pentagrams), discovered lengths that could not be expressed as fractions: the first irrational numbers.
  • “He realized some of the lengths that he was calculating could not be expressed as fractions. Therefore he provides the first proof of the existence of irrational numbers. And he feels like he has to go public…” (32:22, Ben)
• This revelation flew in the face of everything the Pythagorean cult believed—possibly fracturing their entire worldview.

“This flew in the face of everything that these folks believed in and was completely disruptive to their worldview.” (32:51, Noel)

Legend & Death: Divine Wrath, Mortal Jealousy, or Fish Tale? (33:49–39:38)

• After revealing his findings, Hippasus is said to have drowned at sea. The details are murky:
  • Was it cult members silencing a heretic, or the wrath of the gods for peeking behind the cosmic curtain?
  • “His death at sea is a divine punishment because he looked too deeply behind the curtain of reality.” (36:16, Ben)
  • “There is one version of the legend… that it was the cult members that turned on him and drowned him to death at sea. This was a hit.” (37:06, Noel)
• Some historians note there is no definitive proof Hippasus even made this discovery—or that he died for it.
  • “There’s just a bunch of campfire stories and the game of telephone, for sure.” (36:31, Ben)
• Alternative (less spicy) interpretation: maybe the cult was thrilled by the discovery and celebrated Hippasus as an innovator. “The story of the spooky math cult, I think, is a little sexier.” (39:38, Noel)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Irrational Numbers’ Mystique:
  “The concept of irrational numbers is not simply paradoxical. It is downright mystical.” (15:02, Ben)

• On Pythagoras as an Early Influencer:
  “He took that thinking and more or less built it into a kind of religion.” (18:26, Noel)

• On the Cult’s Allure:
  “Imagine if you are in an airport or something and a person walks up to you. Their pitch to you is, quote, reality is all numbers. It’s all math.” (29:58, Ben)

• Joking About Cults and Math:
  “He loved numbers... but did not understand them.” (16:32, Noel)

• On Storytelling:
  “It’s rational, dare we say, to enjoy the juiciest version of a legend.” (39:38, Ben)

• Ridiculous History Challenge:
  “If you are listening... and you become the first person to solve PI and prove it to us and figure out where that decimal ultimately ends, we will take you... on an all expenses paid trip to a Dave and Buster’s of your choice.” (13:44, Ben & Noel, running gag)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction & Banter: 00:00–03:53
• Defining Irrational Numbers: 09:44–15:02
• Pythagorean Cult and Ancient Math Mysticism: 17:00–26:56
• Hippasus’ Discovery and Fallout: 31:35–33:49
• Death of Hippasus – Legend and Speculation: 33:49–39:38
• Alternative Theories & Closing Thoughts: 38:52–42:16

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Episode Takeaways

• The story of Hippasus and irrational numbers blends ancient mathematics, cult dynamics, and mythic drama.
• The legend warns of the dangers—and intrigue—of challenging dogmatic worldviews, even when it’s “just math.”
• Whether true or not, the tale captures how numbers, rational or irrational, can shake the very foundations of belief systems.

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Closing Thought:
Irrational numbers exist, still astound us, and, thanks to legends like Hippasus, remind us that questioning the “rational” can be a dangerous—or at least, history-making—act.

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For listeners looking for more: The hosts tease future explorations of mathematical and mystical oddities—and as always, invite listener stories about cults, math, and everything ridiculous in history.

Transcript

[Ben Bolan]

Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartradio. Welcome back to the show, fellow ridiculous historians. Thank you as always, so much for tuning. Tuning in. Let's hear it for our number one super producer, Max the Irrational Williams.

[Noel Brown]

Max runs the numbers. The numbers guy. Irrational Williams.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

I have survived. I am back.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, you went on a. You went on a bit of a sojourn, didn't you? I did, I did. I went to the. The.

[Noel Brown]

I guess it is a Midwestern state,

[Ben Bolan]

but I don't really understand how it's

[Noel Brown]

sort of on the cusp. Right. St. Louis, Missouri. It's weird. It feels sort of weirdly Southern in some ways, but in other ways it feels vaguely Midwestern.

[Ben Bolan]

What I was told is St. Louis is Midwestern, Missouri is Southern. So it's interesting, you guys. Oh, that's Mr. Noel Brown.

[Noel Brown]

Hello.

[Ben Bolan]

They call me Ben Bolan.

[Noel Brown]

It's you.

[Ben Bolan]

It is. And, well, for legal and tax purposes,

[Noel Brown]

but don't even get me started on tax. I'm not going to pay this year, guys. I'm not going to pay. I did.

[Ben Bolan]

I took a bath on it, for sure.

[Noel Brown]

I won't pay.

[Ben Bolan]

All right.

[Noel Brown]

I won't do it.

[Ben Bolan]

All right.

[Noel Brown]

Well, I don't like what they're spending it on.

[Ben Bolan]

Well, don't say it on air.

[Noel Brown]

I'm taking a stand.

[Ben Bolan]

But we.

[Noel Brown]

I'm too scared.

[Ben Bolan]

We. We're talking about some, some fascinating, rational things today. This is a unsolved murder from millennia ago. But while we're talking Missouri, just so everybody knows, our brother Max was on a vacation and had some adventures. And Max, Noel, I gotta say, I've been to Missouri and I love your pronunciation there, Noel. I've been to Missouri a couple of times and I was always freaked out by how far away I was from the ocean. It is very inland, landlocked.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, don't eat the fish, maybe. I don't know. It seems like they can get could fish just about anywhere. We're landlocked here and we're next to an airport and we get really nice fresh fish at our local markets. I wanted to take this opportunity in talking about the great state of Missouri to shout out a friend of the show, Christy, who is here visiting in Atlanta right now to see Lady Gaga, who I went and saw last night. And although our seats were terrible, it was a fantastic spectacle of a show. It was like Cirque du Soleil. It was wonderful. I've got all those songs stuck in my head. But Christy said that calling St. Louis, St. Louis is like calling Atlanta hot.

[Ben Bolan]

Atlanta. Yeah. Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

I just wanted to give her her due and just put that out into the world. It didn't really occur to me, that connection.

[Ben Bolan]

The Barr brothers from School of Humans, some folks we work with have said very much the same. And I'm so happy to hear that You. You guys did make it to the

[Noel Brown]

Lady Gaga show for the second time. We thought it was the previous week, and we went. We got all dolled up. Me and the kid marched our way down to State Farm arena and not a soul in sight. So, you know, it was a. It was a trial run. If anyone gets a chance to see Mother Mayhem, by all means, please do.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, and please note the time signatures, because music is math. Ultimately, music is math.

[Noel Brown]

Plus poetry, you son of a bitch.

[Ben Bolan]

Pretty good, right?

[Noel Brown]

That's good, man. That's good.

[Ben Bolan]

It was pretty good. So we are. We are by way of irrational segues. We are going to explore a story that the Jedi won't tell you. This is part of our continuing series on inventors who died in some way due to their own inventions. This is a special case.

[Noel Brown]

This is a weird boy. Is it ever. You ask yourself, how can numbers kill?

[Roald Dahl Narrator]

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[Roald Dahl Narrator]

You probably won't believe it either.

[Podcast Advertiser/Promoter]

Was this before you wrote his stories. It must have been. Okay, I don't think that's true.

[Roald Dahl Narrator]

I'm telling you, the guy was a spy. Listen to the Secret World of Roald Dahl on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Noel Brown]

I'm Clayton Eckerd.

[Ben Bolan]

In 2022, I was the lead of ABC's the Bachelor.

[Podcast Advertiser/Promoter]

But here's the thing. Bachelor fans hated him.

[Ben Bolan]

If I could press a button and

[Noel Brown]

rewind it all, I would.

[Podcast Advertiser/Promoter]

That's when his life took a disturbing turn. A one night stand would end in a courtroom. The media is here. This case has gone viral.

[Noel Brown]

The dating contract.

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Agree to date me, but I'm also suing you.

[Noel Brown]

This is unlike anything I've ever seen before.

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When you look at your car, you're Gonna become overwhelmed with such good feelings.

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[Noel Brown]

Segregation in the day, integration at night.

[Ben Bolan]

It was like stepping in another world.

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Charlie was an example of power. They had to crush him.

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[Noel Brown]

And I gotta say too, when I saw the headline of this one the Irrational Death of Hipposis. Hipposis. I read it as the Irrational Death of Hippopotamus and I was excited. Cause that would have been a throwback to remember the hippos. The wild hippos of Pablo Escobar. One of our first episodes. I thought the wild hippos were finally getting their due.

[Ben Bolan]

Narco hippos for sure.

[Noel Brown]

Narco hippos. Are those hippos what narc? Or are those hippos what belong to narco terrorists?

[Ben Bolan]

Being a cartoon of entity, I recently rewatched Scarface so I could learn a little bit more about the drug trade due to recent news. Thanks for the nod Max.

[Noel Brown]

Acknowledgement that we are in the worst timeline. One thing that's really great about Scarface is back in the day when they used to have to do edits for television. That one has some bangers. In terms of the replacements of the Sway, I'm not gonna say what the original was. This is a family show. But one of them it turns into from the Bad Thing to Miami is just a Chicken waiting to be plucked. So use your imagination.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, jump in here real quick.

[Noel Brown]

My favorite TV edit of all time is still from the Matrix, where Neo's on the side of the building at

[Ben Bolan]

the very beginning, and he's like, ah, shucks.

[Noel Brown]

Okay, don't know that one. But Big Lebowski also has some really quality ones. One is, this is what happens when you leave a stranger in the Al, as opposed to the bad thing.

[Ben Bolan]

It's up there with. So I watch a lot of foreign films, and it's up there with the weird translations that attempt to be palatable, where you have someone say, oh, like the Mandarin would say something like, you know, let's get it on, because we are a family show. And the translation will be, let's spend some time together late at night now

[Noel Brown]

and then make pancakes. How in the heck are we going to pivot from Scarface TV edits Back to math. It was my fault because I said hypasus, and that made me think of hippopotamuses, and it's just a whole horror show, but I think I just did it. We're talking about a Greek.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, yeah. This is the legend of Hipposis or Hippasus.

[Noel Brown]

Thank you. Much better preferred.

[Ben Bolan]

Okay, so before we dive in, folks, it is crucial to note that we as a crew are not math surgeons or whatever the term is. But for this story, we do need to briefly explain or explore the concept of irrational numbers. Which sounds like it sounds paradoxical, does it not?

[Noel Brown]

I think about it with the same level of bewilderment as I do leap

[Ben Bolan]

year or Thanksgiving or Easter.

[Noel Brown]

No, I think I'm more confused by irrational numbers. Thanksgiving and Easter. Easter is a little bit of a head scratcher, but Thanksgiving. I know it's a weird date thing, but I kind of more or less get it. Irrational numbers. It is a little bit of a heady concept.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah. All right, so if we were to put it simply, and this will be important later, an irrational number is any real number, quote, unquote, a positive or negative number or zero, but it cannot be written as a fraction. So for a fancier definition, we could say an irrational number can't be expressed as the ratio of two integers.

[Noel Brown]

So this would be maybe to simplify a little bit for people that just barely passed algebra like myself. You might think of this as a repeating decimal.

[Ben Bolan]

Decimal.

[Noel Brown]

Right.

[Ben Bolan]

That's great. Yeah, you nailed it. So decimals that it just goes on

[Noel Brown]

and on and on.

[Ben Bolan]

No discernible repeating pattern. Right. They continually high being a very famous one. And there are also things like Euler's number or the golden ratio.

[Noel Brown]

It's stuff like this too that makes me kind of look at numbers with a certain mysticism. There's a certain quality of, like, being able to explain the unexplainable or sort of the secrets of the universe to, like numbers. And you start to think of like the movie pie and Kabbalah and numerology and all that stuff. When I think of irrational numbers and like a number that just goes on ad infinitum that starts to kind of pique my interest in that direction.

[Ben Bolan]

Oh, yeah, and PI is such a great film. It's a classic buddy comedy. We've got one totally pleasant, a real

[Noel Brown]

good, a real romp.

[Ben Bolan]

It's one for the kiddos.

[Noel Brown]

There was Police Academy, the movie.

[Ben Bolan]

Yes, Police Academy, the movie. Square root. Some square roots are also irrational because they're not perfect squares. So, like, if you enter the square root of numbers, such as 2 or 13 or 18, into a calculator, the answer you get, the reply you get will not be rational. The square root of 2 is the best known of these. As you can tell, folks, this is a whole messy bowl of spaghetti. But no, I think we can agree this is on a positive note. It is an exciting reminder that humanity, even now, still doesn't know everything about math.

[Noel Brown]

Well, that's what I was getting at. I mean, I guess you could see why my head would go toward the whole mysticism and the secrets of the universe and stuff. And we have something that is meant to be and on its surfaces, completely rational and a way of boiling things down to very understandable integers, formulas, et cetera. To have an aspect of that that's unexplainable. It seems counter to the whole idea of the tidiness of math.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, well put. And in fact, folks. Noel, Max, if we're all cool with this, I would like to issue an official ridiculous History challenge.

[Noel Brown]

I thought it was going to be a proclamation.

[Ben Bolan]

A challenge, an invitation, way of the open hand. If you are listening, fellow ridiculous historian, and you become the first person to solve PI and prove it to us and figure out where that decimal ultimately ends. We will take you, Noel Mack sand, yours truly will take you on an all expenses paid trip to a Dave and Buster's of your choice.

[Noel Brown]

Preferably, you know, one in the metro Atlanta area.

[Ben Bolan]

Preferably one.

[Noel Brown]

I'm kidding. We'll go. We'll go wherever. Whatever your DNB of choices, we'll meet you there. All expenses. Ben, that's a. Are you sure we can get finance to approve this?

[Ben Bolan]

We're kind of doing a ask forgiveness link thing. Okay.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, I'm also. You know what? I'm going to go ahead and put my money where my mouth is. If you can solve this equation, this, you know, historical quandary, I'll pony up the all expenses myself.

[Ben Bolan]

Oh, come on.

[Noel Brown]

Out of my own pocket.

[Ben Bolan]

I've got your back.

[Noel Brown]

Thanks, buddy. You want to go halfsies?

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, we got to go halvesies on this.

[Noel Brown]

That way we won't get. Yeah, you guys are definitely going to have these.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, Max, I noticed you went mute on that one.

[Noel Brown]

Is there a three way version of Havsies Triumvirate?

[Ben Bolan]

Tripsies.

[Noel Brown]

Tripsies. No, no, no, no.

[Ben Bolan]

We're a family show. So for I. I love the point that you made there earlier a couple times. No. For a lot of us, the concept of irrational numbers is not simply paradoxical. It is downright mystical. And according to the legends, we owe the discovery of irrational numbers to a cult. Let's say we introduce Hipposis, a numbers cult.

[Noel Brown]

I love it. Like, what's that one Jim Carrey movie with the scary numbers he writes all over the wall?

[Ben Bolan]

The roo. He's in a room.

[Noel Brown]

He's in a room and he's. I think he's written it all over his face. Even it's called, like the Numbers. I don't know if this is. There's a name for this. Whenever there's a number associated with a title or even a band outside of Blink 182. Cause that's just ingrained into my brain. I can never remember the number part. You'll often hear me say it's this. With some number. I don't have a brain for numbers. And that even comes with remembering addresses and codes to doors.

[Ben Bolan]

I love numbers, but I don't understand them.

[Noel Brown]

No, I love them too. I think they're fascinating, as did this cult.

[Ben Bolan]

I hope that we make more episodes in the future, because I would hate for our. I would hate for us to be struck by a meteor or a Shahad drone and then have our last quotations be stuff like, I love numbers, but I don't understand them.

[Noel Brown]

That was. That's what I want people on my tombstone. He loved numbers. Noel Brown, who loved numbers but did not understand.

[Ben Bolan]

So back around, let's say, 500 BCE or so, we got this guy named Hippasus. H I P P A S U S of Metapontum, which is. You know, it's common for people of that era to Be described as from a place.

[Noel Brown]

It's a little village right there on the coast of modern day Greece. Seems like a lovely place to vacation. Some cool historic remnants of, you know, Greek column structures. Around, you can see it was an ancient city of Magna in Greece.

[Ben Bolan]

And our guy, Hippasus, he is a philosopher. He is an early follower of an enigmatic character named Pythagoras. Now, we all remember the name Pythagoras for one reason, right? Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

That's the triangle one, right?

[Ben Bolan]

How do you find the hypotenuse? The Pythagorean? The Pythagorean.

[Noel Brown]

I wish I was high on pot news. Sorry.

[Ben Bolan]

That's excellent. Key and peele sketch.

[Noel Brown]

It's just a good key and peele sketch.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah. A squared plus B squared equals C squared. This was a revolution for the ages. And now it is an old grade school math question. The thing is, before we have characters like Plato and Aristotle model, we've got Pythagoras of Samos. And he is the guy who is running around doing his version of TED talks, saying math is the key to the universe.

[Noel Brown]

He ain't wrong.

[Ben Bolan]

He's not wrong.

[Noel Brown]

I'm always blown away by how early they figured out all this stuff. I mean, I don't stating the obvious, but like, it's just these are some smart people who figured out some very, very interesting ways of solving some very, very heady questions using this very seemingly, on the surface, very logical, formulaic approach. But Pythagoras knew that there was something deeper, there was something behind the numbers. And he took that thinking and more or less built it into a kind of religion.

[Roald Dahl Narrator]

You know, Roald Dahl, the writer who thought up Willy Wonka, Matilda and the bfg. But did you know he was also a spy?

[Podcast Advertiser/Promoter]

Was this before he wrote his stories? It must have been.

[Roald Dahl Narrator]

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[Noel Brown]

What?

[Roald Dahl Narrator]

And he was really good at it. You probably won't believe it either.

[Podcast Advertiser/Promoter]

Okay, I don't think that's true.

[Roald Dahl Narrator]

I'm telling you, the guy was a spy. Did you know Dahl got cozy with the Roosevelts, played poker with Harry Truman, and had a long affair with a congresswoman. And then he took his talents to Hollywood, where he worked alongside Walt Disney and Alfred Hitchcock before writing a hit James Bond film. How did this secret agent wind up as the most successful children's author ever? And what darkness from his covert past seeped into the stories we read as kids. The true story is stranger than anything he ever wrote. Listen to the secret world of Roald Dahl on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Noel Brown]

I'm Clayton ECKERD and in 2022, I

[Ben Bolan]

was the lead of ABC's the Bachelor.

[Podcast Advertiser/Promoter]

Unfortunately, it didn't go according to plan. He became the first Bachelor to ever have his final rose rejected. The Internet turned on him.

[Ben Bolan]

If I could press a button and

[Noel Brown]

rewind it all, I would.

[Podcast Advertiser/Promoter]

But what happened to Clayton? After the show made even bigger headlines. It began as a one night stand and ended in a courtroom with Clayton at the center of a very strange paternity scandal. The media is here. This case has gone viral.

[Ben Bolan]

The dating contract.

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Agree to date me, but I'm also suing you.

[Ben Bolan]

Please. Search warrant.

[Noel Brown]

This is unlike anything I've ever seen before.

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What if mind control is real?

[Noel Brown]

If you could control the behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have?

[Podcast Advertiser/Promoter]

Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car?

[Ben Bolan]

When you look at your car, you're gonna become overwhelmed with such good feelings.

[Podcast Advertiser/Promoter]

Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you?

[Noel Brown]

I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused.

[Podcast Advertiser/Promoter]

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[Noel Brown]

It's about engineering consciousness.

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[Noel Brown]

Segregation in the day, integration at night.

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[Noel Brown]

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[Ben Bolan]

It was like stepping in another world.

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[Noel Brown]

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[Ben Bolan]

Okay, so now Pythagor, for most of us in 2026, Pythagoras is a dusty old name you see in math textbooks, maybe philosophy books. But to your point, back in his heyday, his halcyon age, this guy was a cult leader, essentially. His ideas were so galvanizing, so electric that people started following him, and they created something called the Pythagorean cult, which he founded and kind of named after himself in a burst of humility. This was a secretive, mystical, communal society. They blended math, philosophy, and interesting religious practices. They were strict vegetarians. Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

They believed in the music of the spheres and in sacred geometry and all of these sort of harmonious connections between celestial bodies that they believed could be explained using a lot of these mathematical concepts. And he became quite the influencer of the time. He had over a thousand followers at the time who helped him establish sort of an ashram kind of situation, like a commune. And under his leadership, in that commune, a sort of, to your point, Ben, very holistic approach to living kind of flourished. They seemed to have almost like an intentional community kind of set, you know?

[Ben Bolan]

There we go. They believed in things like what we would call reincarnation today. They also had rules that might sound oddly specific, like, you shouldn't eat fava beans. I don't know why.

[Noel Brown]

With a nice chianti.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, yeah, nailed it. This thing that flourishes in modern day southern Italy, this colony that Pythagoras is leading, they start to become increasingly politically important and this makes powerful enemies that ultimately lead to the ending of this intentional community. That's a story for another day. For now it's enough.

[Noel Brown]

I mean, you can see why it was almost the behavior of like a heretic in a way. If you're going against the prevailing pantheon and you're saying it's more important to worship math than it is to worship Zeus, I could see how they could make you some powerful enemies.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah. Especially if you pop off at the mouth with some crazy thing like, well, I think Zeus is actually math and Poseidon is another kind of math. People don't like to hear that.

[Noel Brown]

Well, for sure. And usually this kind of intense rationalism, I guess you could call it. Even though there certainly was a mystical bend that tends to fly in the face of like established much more, you know, rigid religious beliefs that have that worship deities of some kind. Because typically these folks aren't going to like put much stock into that kind of thing. They'll be like, these are, these are fantasies.

[Ben Bolan]

Right? It disrupts power structures. That's the issue. Yeah. And so, okay, so it's enough for us to know now that Pythagoras started a cult all about numbers, saying that reality can be explained through rational numbers. And to your point, through rational thought. Our buddy Hippasus is an early adopter of these beliefs and it makes sense for us even now in 2026. People have always endeavored to understand how the world works and the claim that the entirety of the universe can be understand via rational numbers. This concept that everything could somehow make sense of. Obviously this is hugely appealing. Pythagoras does end up dying in modern day Italy, starves himself. But his followers carry on his traditions for several more centuries. About 100 years later, the Pythagoreans are maintaining the traditions and they attract the attention of a young up and comer named Hippasus. And Hippasus at the beginning is having

[Noel Brown]

a great time for sure up until this time. Pythagoreans. Pythagoreans, yeah, that works. They were busy telling folks and spreading the word to the initiated in any case, that all numbers could be expressed as the ratio of integers.

[Ben Bolan]

Now let's hold on there, Noel, because. Okay. Have you ever been approached by a cult?

[Noel Brown]

Absolutely. The Moonies at the airport, Hare Krishnas, are they the same? No, they're different. I think the Moonies and the Hare Krishnas are a little different. And I know it's sometimes offensive to throw around the C word, and certainly we're not here to denigrate anyone's beliefs, but both of those groups do exhibit some kind of, let's just say, recruitment type outreach situations.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Noel Brown]

And a Scientologist. Have you ever been to la? They'll come at you in the street. They'll try to get you to come in to the L. Ron Hubbard Museum and take the tour, which you should do because it's interesting, but it is a recruitment tactic.

[Ben Bolan]

100%. Yeah. Like Zindik Farms we used to have here.

[Noel Brown]

Zendig.

[Ben Bolan]

I remember that. They sent people out Now, Max, have you been approached by a cult?

[Noel Brown]

I remember my freshman orientation for college. I got attacked by some people in frats trying to get them to join a frat. I mean, same thing, but really makes a frat that much different from a cult. Yeah, it's easier to catch more flies with honey than you do with attack. Attacking people.

[Ben Bolan]

Mlm. So the reason we're asking this, folks, and please share your cult stories with us is imagine if you are in an airport or something and a person walks up to you. Their pitch to you is, quote, reality is all numbers. It's all math. And you're thinking, well, this guy's kind of strange. And then they say, further, all numbers can be expressed as the ratio of of integers, end quote. I would be like, you're the most boring cult leader or you're the most boring cult representative ever. You're a snooze fest. Aren't you supposed to tell me something weird about ancient aliens or twin flames, but no integers.

[Noel Brown]

I don't know, man. Though this is interesting what I was getting at because we're obviously talking about the disruption of this orderly way of viewing the universe. And I can see how this numbers thing could have been really attractive because there is something to it that is, like, so understandable and rational and a way of, like, explaining a lot of the movement of the stars and the planets and all that kind of thing, that sort of is an interesting, easier to wrap your head around alternative. Some of the more like traditional Greek religious belief systems. But when you start throwing in this whole idea of like, well, what if the numbers aren't as easy to understand? What if there's something else? To me, that is where the mystical part comes in. I just wonder how disruptive this must have been.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah. Along comes our Palhipas. From what we know, he's an ordinary rank and File cult member. At first they're saying yay numbers. And he says yay numbers. And they say be vegetarian. And he says yay vegetarian. And they say beat me here Max. Fava beans. And he says cool, I'm still on board. But at some point, according to the legend, he was trying to inscribe a dodecahedron inside a sphere or the best

[Noel Brown]

shape by the way.

[Ben Bolan]

The best shape. It's one of the best dice out there. Or he was trying to explain the ratio of lengths in a pentagram. One of the symbols.

[Noel Brown]

Another sick shape.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, another sick shape for sure. And the story goes that while he was trying to figure this out, he realized some of the lengths that he was calculating could not be expressed as fractions. Therefore he provides the first proof of the existence of irrational numbers. And he feels like he has to go public, he has to blow the whistle on this rational number cult.

[Noel Brown]

Well, right, and he was on board with it. I mean he was a follower of Pythagoras, so this had to have been mind blowing galaxy brain type stuff for him as well. And to what I was sort of speculating earlier, it's absolutely true. This flew in the face of everything that these folks believed in and was completely disruptive to their worldview. And I'm sorry if I'm harping on this a little bit but do you kind of see where I'm coming from with like how it feels like the mystery part of numbers is more interesting and more a sign of the mystical aspects of it than it being perfect and like you know, absolutely zero room for error and like just no, it's these, these whole numbers. But I can understand how it also at the time would have been really, really difficult to reconcile the two.

[Ben Bolan]

This flies in the face of everything the cult believes, their entire worldview. The legend gets a little murky because some people around the time or within a few centuries after the fact, they would tell you the Pythagoreans took offense at this discovery of irrational numbers. And in other tales Hippasus made his results public and he got in trouble not for discovering irrational numbers, but for blowing the whistle about the sects secret practices.

[Noel Brown]

Okay, there's a little more to numbers than initially met the eye. He's kind of doxxing these folks and exposing some potentially problematic behavior.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, so maybe so history remembers him as snitching about irrational numbers, but maybe he also snitched about fava beans and they were like hey man, they'll talk about the beans. That's between Us.

[Noel Brown]

And maybe even this, if this means an extra Google or something like, what did he do? We don't really have too much information on what he exposed.

[Ben Bolan]

Essentially, the legend goes that he exposed the existence of things like the golden ratio or PI. He found that there are some numbers that do not jibe with the worldview of the Pythagorean cult.

[Noel Brown]

Got it. But didn't he also kind of expose some of their practices of, you know, somewhat heretical behavior like offending gods and all of these various acts of defiance that maybe they were doing behind closed doors?

[Ben Bolan]

That's part of it, yeah. That's one of the other allegations. We do know that the official story, again, still legends at this point in time. The official story is that he drowned somehow in the sea shortly after announcing he discovered irrational numbers. And some scholars would later claim that he was murdered by fellow cult members. Definite possibility. The juicier version of the legend is that his discovery did not just offend mortals, it offended the gods as well.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, that's what I was teasing a little bit.

[Ben Bolan]

His death at sea is a divine punishment because he looked too deeply behind the curtain of reality.

[Noel Brown]

Okay, death at sea.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

What are we talking here? Kind of just a voyage that went awry.

[Ben Bolan]

A Robert Maxwell situation, perhaps. That's the thing. Like so many ancient tales, this one probably got embellished over time, or it was made up entirely. We know that a lot of modern authors will say that Hipposis did at least independently discover irrational numbers, but there's not really any direct evidence to support that. There's just a bunch of campfire stories in the game of telephone, for sure.

[Noel Brown]

And can I also just say there is one version of the legend? Man, I found a cool piece on Scientific American, how a secret society discovered irrational numbers. And it's the image that they pulled. It's just like. It looks like a bunch of ring wraiths. It's just these shadowy figures, robed figures with no faces. It is absolutely terrifying. But one version of this legend is that it was the cult members that turned on him and drowned him to death at sea. This was a hit.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah. This is the thing. There's a third possibility about his death. This is, again, a true crime story that remains unsolved millennia later. What if he did discover rational numbers, ruffled the wrong feathers? And as fellow cultists got mad enough to kill him? And what if later they claimed he was drowned by the gods to throw authorities off the trail? Right, because.

[Noel Brown]

Right. Divine punishment for his. For his. His own heresy.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

And I keep using that word, but I think it's appropriate.

[Ben Bolan]

It's. It's perfect. After all, then is now the gods are beyond mortal jurisdiction. We also have to remember, just to be fair, not to be fun police about this story, but the world was full of different civilizations and they all had their own math wizards at the time. Right? They had other people who probably understood something like irrational numbers. I don't know. No, I think it's fair to say that. But Hippasus may have independently discovered irrational numbers, but he was probably not the first guy to ever think of that, ever.

[Noel Brown]

Certainly not. Tons of parallel thinking involve these kinds of discoveries throughout history. But since we are talking about legend here, there's another version that says, and this is specifically referenced in the Scientific American piece that I was talking about, that. That there's a world or a version of events where none of this stuff is true. That the Pythagoreans actually thought it was awesome that he discovered this stuff and that them being such math geeks, would have been super impressed and hailed it as an achievement. And that would have made Pythagoras himself proud as opposed to rolling in his grave. But the story of the spooky math cult, I think, is a little sexier.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, yeah, it's a lot sexier. It's rational, dare we say, to enjoy the juiciest version of a legend. But we know one thing for sure. Irrational numbers exist. They, some of them have yet to be, quote, unquote, solved, if that term even applies. And Hipposis is definitely dead. Is he dead due to his own discovery? Or is this a campfire tale that people told over and over again for thousands of years? We leave the question to you, folks. Thank you as always, so much for tuning in. We hope we did you right, fellow ridiculous historians, especially if you know more about math than we do. And we've gotta thank our super producer, Mr. Max Williams. Max, how did we do?

[Noel Brown]

Ooh, Max the math man Williams.

[Ben Bolan]

There we go.

[Noel Brown]

I will say you did just fine.

[Ben Bolan]

Just fine.

[Noel Brown]

Thank you. No, I know this is a shorter one, but, you know, it is a little math heavy and there's certainly some stuff that we could have included, like the specific formulas surrounding his discovery of irrational numbers. But it would have just made my. It would have just done my head in. So thank you so much for maintaining my mental health by allowing us to gloss over some of that stuff. Ben.

[Ben Bolan]

We didn't get to Graham's number, We didn't get to Skew's number.

[Noel Brown]

We didn't get to offer my benefit. Thank you, Googleplex.

[Ben Bolan]

We've got so much.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, don't say it now.

[Ben Bolan]

Stop.

[Noel Brown]

Stop while you're ahead. I'm sorry you're starting to feel the migraine coming.

[Ben Bolan]

We've got so much stuff to get to in the future. We hope you enjoyed our recent foray into the spiritualism movement, or spiritualist movement, with Jonathan Strickland, AKA the Quizzter. So a tepid, irrational thanks to him. Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

You know what? I think I've put my beef with Strick aside after that last appearance. You know, he was so. He was so. He's so pleasant.

[Ben Bolan]

Don't fall.

[Noel Brown]

And then he made that heel turn at the end.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, man. Sorry. I have conflicting feelings about that, man.

[Ben Bolan]

Let's just say big thanks also to Dr. Rachel Big Spinach, Lance AJ Bahamas Jacobs the Puzzler, we call him.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, gosh, yes. Christopher Osiotis and Eve Jeffcoats here in spirit. Also, huge thanks to our buddy Mangash Hatikadur of Kaleidoscope Podcast Network fame. I don't know network, but you know, a production company that makes some incredible shows. I think we're gonna get to hang with that guy come a couple weeks from now. Looking forward to it.

[Ben Bolan]

Just the best. And also, Noel, thanks to you, man.

[Noel Brown]

You as well. See you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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