Neckties are Utterly Ridiculous

Summary

Ridiculous History: Neckties are Utterly Ridiculous
Podcast Episode Summary
Released on December 3, 2024
Hosted by Ben Bolan and Noel Brown, Produced by Max Williams

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1. Introduction and Opening Banter

The episode kicks off with hosts Ben Bolan and Noel Brown humorously introducing their super producer, Max Williams, highlighting his passion for neckties.

• Ben Bolan [00:43]: “You guys know how much I love neckties. You guys know I have so many.”
• Noel Brown [01:06]: “I have one tie and every time I have to put it on, I have to look up a YouTube video on how to tie it.”

This light-hearted exchange sets the tone for their deep dive into the world of neckties.

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2. The Decorative Nature of Neckties

Bolan and Brown discuss how neckties have evolved from functional garments to purely decorative accessories.

• Ben Bolan [02:38]: “Generally speaking, the necktie today is decorative. It is ornamental rather than functional.”
• Noel Brown [03:36]: “What's neat about a tie, though, is it’s not only an accoutrement or a decorative ornamental piece of kit itself, you can even decorate the decorative thing with like tie pins.”

They emphasize that modern ties serve no practical purpose, contrasting them with items like scarves or mops.

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3. Historical Origins: Ancient Civilizations and Status Symbols

The discussion shifts to the origins of neckwear in ancient civilizations, highlighting its role as a status symbol.

• Ben Bolan [08:22]: “The idea of tying stuff around your neck as a flex is surprisingly old. If you go back to ancient civilizations... these people were rocking stuff around their neck and it was not functional. It was a status symbol.”
• Noel Brown [09:22]: “In ancient Rome, they had a strip of linen called a sudarium...”

They explore how various cultures, from China to Egypt, used neck adornments to signify rank and status.

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4. The Croatian Mercenaries and the Cravat

Bolan narrates the transition of neckwear from ancient times to the 17th century, focusing on Croatian mercenaries in France.

• Ben Bolan [12:03]: “The ancestor of the modern tie goes back probably to the 1600s... Croatian mercenaries in France under Louis XIV.”
• Noel Brown [12:28]: “They wore decorative scarves or knotted neckerchiefs as part of their military kit.”

These neckerchiefs served both functional purposes, like holding capes, and as symbols of military rank.

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5. Evolution Through Europe: Louis XIV and the Spread of the Cravat

The hosts explain how the cravat became fashionable in France and spread across Europe.

• Ben Bolan [16:11]: “Louis XIII decided he was going to co-opt this fashion and require them to be worn at royal events. This is almost like the very first introduction of the Black tie affair.”
• Noel Brown [17:07]: “The French public is calling this the Croat, and then it becomes, to your point, Noel, it becomes corrupted to la cravat or cravat in English.”

They discuss the cravat's transformation from a military accessory to a widespread fashion statement.

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6. Beau Brummel and the Popularization of the Cravat

Beau Brummel's influence in making the cravat a fashion staple is highlighted.

• Noel Brown [29:29]: “Beau Brummel helped to really solidify the way we think of tying a tie or a cravat.”
• Ben Bolan [32:08]: “Women go crazy for a sharp dressed man. But we're also shouting out our buddy Beau Brummel here because Noel, he is the guy who started the trend of wearing black evening wear.”

Brummel introduced intricate tying techniques, making the cravat a symbol of sophistication and skill rather than just wealth.

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7. Transition to Modern Ties: Manufacturing and Knot Styles

The conversation moves to the industrial advancements that made ties more accessible and the evolution of various knot styles.

• Ben Bolan [45:47]: “In the 1920s, a New York tie maker named Jesse Langsdorf changed the game by making ties that retained their shape after being tied.”
• Noel Brown [43:15]: “The Four in Hand knot was created in the 1800s and is still one of the most well-known conventional tie knots today.”

They explore how manufacturing innovations democratized tie ownership and the proliferation of diverse knot styles enhanced their decorative role.

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8. Modern Significance: Status Symbol and Professional Attire

Bolan and Brown analyze the contemporary role of ties in professional settings and as status symbols.

• Ben Bolan [41:02]: “During the Industrial Revolution, working professionals became increasingly aware of how they looked. The tie provided a way to mark their appearance as individuals of note.”
• Noel Brown [47:15]: “I just find them to be sharp and a little less old-fashioned looking.”

Ties are portrayed as essential elements of professional attire, symbolizing professionalism and ambition.

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9. Collecting Ties and Tie Trends

The hosts delve into the culture of tie collecting and current trends in neckwear.

• Ben Bolan [50:53]: “There is a word for people who collect ties: Gravitologist.”
• Noel Brown [50:27]: “Max loves ties so much, it's more likely for my father to give me a tie than the other way around.”

They discuss how ties have become collectibles and the various styles that cater to different fashion sensibilities.

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10. Conclusion: Neckties in Contemporary Society

Bolan and Brown wrap up by reflecting on the enduring presence of ties and their place in modern fashion.

• Ben Bolan [51:02]: “The tie refers more to the act than the object. It's about how you tied it—the knotting abilities—which creates a meritocratic element.”
• Noel Brown [48:22]: “We've solved the history of neckties. It's a flexible symbol that continues to evolve.”

They conclude that despite their seemingly ridiculous nature, ties remain a potent symbol of social status, professionalism, and personal style.

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Notable Quotes

• Ben Bolan [02:38]: “The necktie today is decorative. It is ornamental rather than functional.”
• Noel Brown [08:22]: “The idea of tying stuff around your neck as a flex is surprisingly old.”
• Ben Bolan [16:11]: “Louis XIII... the very first introduction of the Black tie affair.”
• Noel Brown [29:29]: “Beau Brummel... started the trend of wearing black evening wear.”

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Final Thoughts

In "Neckties are Utterly Ridiculous," Ben Bolan and Noel Brown provide an insightful and entertaining exploration of neckties, tracing their journey from ancient status symbols to modern professional accessories. Through historical anecdotes and witty commentary, the hosts reveal the often overlooked complexities and social implications of this seemingly simple piece of apparel.

Transcript

[Ben Bolan]

Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you as always so much for tuning in. We're so glad you're here. We're also going to welcome our super producer, Mr. Max Williams.

[Noel Brown]

I guess. I'm just kidding. Welcome, Max. We love you so much. Here's a big podcast.

[Max Williams]

You guys know how much I love neckties. You guys know I have so many.

[Ben Bolan]

That's the main thing you talk about.

[Noel Brown]

Is it true?

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, it's like curling a necktie. Oh, God. Now we have to.

[Noel Brown]

Do you have a tie rack that would necess. Do you have enough ties that would necessitate an entire rack?

[Ben Bolan]

An entire rack.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, my goodness gracious.

[Ben Bolan]

Well done. Well, that's. That's Mr. No, Brown says.

[Noel Brown]

I. I have one tie and you know what, man? Every time I have to put it on, I have to look up a YouTube video on how to tie it. I'm not even joking. Not even joke.

[Max Williams]

Do a half Windsor. That's the only one I've learned how to do off of memory.

[Ben Bolan]

You guys don't know the different knots.

[Noel Brown]

Full Windsor or bust.

[Ben Bolan]

For me, guys, I'm Ben Bolan. We are. We are following up on a conversation we had earlier. Longtime ridiculous historians. We're, you know, we're no better than anyone else. We're not some sort of moral nor intellectual signpost for the world, but for yourself. But we do know. I would say we do have a pretty good spidey sense for things that seem normal yet are ridiculous. And that is why we're doing this episode about neckties.

[Noel Brown]

Well, when you give it a little extra thought, it does start to resemble some weird future fashion thing that to the time traveler, the unsuspecting time traveler just makes no sense. Like, I'm trying to think of an.

[Ben Bolan]

Example in popular Demolition Man. You don't know how to use the three seashells.

[Noel Brown]

That is Ben, you mind reader. That is exactly that. Specifically. And the flavor of that. In science fiction, there's always like, you know, some weird, like, cylindrical hat or something like that that's shaped like a you polygon or something. That's not what cylindrical means, but you know what I'm saying, It's not functional. It's just a little bit of an odd choice that clearly came from somewhere. But where?

[Ben Bolan]

But where? Yeah, there's. It's almost functioning like flair. Generally speaking, the necktie today is decorative. It is ornamental rather than functional. Think about it. A tie goes around your neck, but it's not going to Keep you warm the way a scarf would. It's not a good. It's not a great napkin. It's not a mop, nor a great towel. You could do a tourniquet if you had to.

[Noel Brown]

You really could. You could put it around your head if you wanted to. Go full office Rambo mode, if I'm not mistaken. I believe young Gizmo did that in Gremlins 2, the new batch. He wore a necktie around his head and was shooting those pesky gremlins with a paperclip bow and arrow with flaming matchsticks. You know what's neat about a tie though, is a tie, not only is it an accoutrement or a decorative ornamental piece of kit itself, you can even decorate the decorative thing with like tie pins.

[Ben Bolan]

Yes, yes.

[Max Williams]

In case anyone was wondering. 15 ties. I have 15 ties.

[Noel Brown]

15 ties. That's. We were waiting for the number.

[Ben Bolan]

Are we about to have a tie off?

[Noel Brown]

I've already given my number and it's embarrassing. So you guys win by default.

[Ben Bolan]

Oh, boy. I've got a. I'm not going to do show and tell here, but I have inherited several very old ties, vintage ties. It's okay. I wear them at fancy occasions because that's what a tie is supposed to tell you. In modern day civilization, if you see someone walking around, they got a tie on. It's as though there's. It's like having a fancy watch. It's like they're saying, look at me, world, I'm doing important stuff today.

[Noel Brown]

It's like, look at me, world, I have enough money that I can invest in this stupid thing around my neck. You know, I love the idea of a black tie affair. You know, it really is the mark of the fanciest of engagements or dinners or parties.

[Ben Bolan]

Sure. Yeah. It reminds me to know of the one time I got punked so hard by our buddy Miles Gray over at Daily Zeitgeist because I said I didn't understand fancy wristwatches. I said it's either money laundering after a certain threshold or it's just a status symbol. In a world where everyone has smartphones, your wristwatch just says, look at me. I could tell time twice.

[Noel Brown]

That's true. I will say, as I've gotten a little older and I've started to maybe get a little more interested in some of the finer things in life, whether I own them or not. I do appreciate the engineering that goes into a really, really high end wristwatch. And similarly, with like a nice, really nice necktie, you know, it is not engineering exactly, but the fabric, the weave, the knits, you know, the pattern, the crazy pattern. Like a dance flashes ye.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, this is crazy too. So let's get into it.

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[Ben Bolan]

All right. The idea of tying stuff around your neck as a flex is surprisingly old. If you go back to ancient civilizations far before Seville Row or Savile Row, you can. You can see that China, Rome, the Egyptians, these people were rocking stuff around their neck and it was not functional. It was a status symbol.

[Noel Brown]

It also wasn't like a typical blinged out neck piece, you know, a necklace. That is a different class of accoutrement. We are specifically talking about carefully tied pieces of cloth wrapped around one's neck. Since the item is only shown in images of Chinese soldiers, terracotta sculptures, rather, from the second century bce it did appear to be either a sign of rank, perhaps, or some sort of like, you'd see a general wearing those medals on their chest or whatever. Or the epaulette. Is that what they're called, the things on the shoulders?

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, nailed it. Epaulettes.

[Noel Brown]

So, yeah, it would seem to be an indication of one's status within a military organization.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah. And we see this again as well. In ancient Rome, a world away, they had a strip of linen that they called a sudarium. And you wore it around the neck, or sometimes in the early days, you tied it around the wrist, as was the fashion at the time. And it was dudes rocking this, the same thing. Some sort of exemplary performance. In ancient Egypt, they would take a similar kind of cloth, they would adorn it with precious stones, and pharaohs would wear it.

[Noel Brown]

Okay. Archaeologists have in fact found what they believe to be some sort of, I guess, protective or magical talisman, referred to as the knot of Isis, wrapped around the necks of mummies, meant to be some sort of protection in the afterlife. It is called this because it resembles a knot that would have been used to secure garments worn by Egyptian gods. And when we're talking about knots, it's really hard not to.

[Ben Bolan]

Jesus Christ, keep it. We're keeping it.

[Noel Brown]

It was accidentally on purpose, you know, not to think about the way neckties are tied in various fashions.

[Ben Bolan]

And as our pals then Raphael Schneider points out, writing for Gentleman's Gazette, certain members of tribes over in Oceania also wore neck adornments. It's impossible to establish the specific period of time when the first person began to wrap knotted fabric around their necks. But it's pretty evident that neckwear of some sort has a tradition, a global tradition. It's not just in the Americas, it's not just in Western Europe. Across the world, various cultures, neck adornment of some sort was seen as a mark of distinction. To your point, Noel, that may be distinction of military office or. Or simply royalty. It is for the fancy people.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah. A sign of opulence. You know, again, a bit of a flex, like a fancy wristwatch.

[Ben Bolan]

There it is. And we know, we were looking into this together, we know the ancestor of what we call the modern necktie, of which Max has how many, Max?

[Noel Brown]

17.

[Ben Bolan]

17.

[Noel Brown]

I think that's right. I remember these things. It's important data.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, Right. Like when we go to a friend's nice house and we immediately look up Zillow.

[Noel Brown]

Mm. People love it when you do that.

[Ben Bolan]

People love it. So the ancestor of the modern tie goes back probably to the 1600s. It's a story that is ridiculously rife with mercenaries, war and you'll love this. Our returning characters. Noel Brown. It's the macaronis.

[Noel Brown]

Right. We called them that. But wasn't that referring to like the high fashion of the Italians?

[Ben Bolan]

Oh, it was referring to in the.

[Noel Brown]

Yankee Doodle Dandy song.

[Ben Bolan]

Yes. What would be called dandies. If you look back to the story of why people wear ties now then you're really looking at Croatian mercenaries in France under the Sun King and of course Louis xiv.

[Noel Brown]

They employed Croatian mercenaries during various battles, as folks of their stature are wont to do. These mercenaries wore decorative scarves or knotted neckerchiefs as part of their military kit, their uniforms. The demarcation of officers and rank was determined by the quality of the fabric. The finer the fabric, the higher the rank. The coarser the fabric, the lower the rank.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah. So you're in the trenches, you might have burlap on your neck. Right. Maybe died somehow. But if you're officer class, then you have better fabric and probably better patterns. Approaching. Damn. Flash. The frontline soldier neckerchiefs. And I love the word neckerchiefs.

[Noel Brown]

I do too.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

Almost as much as I like cravat, which we're about to get to.

[Ben Bolan]

Yes, yes, yes. With the Croats. With the Croatians. These neckerchiefs are knotted around the soldiers necks and they have a function. They're meant to hold up capes, the ends of the clothes. This basically this cape fastener. They're arranged in a bow. If you're a fancy boy, they get finished with a tuft or a tassel. Yeah. If you're a regular dude, you just tie it off and hope your cape does, like, does its job and stays on.

[Noel Brown]

Ben, I propose we bring back capes just in regular walking around type situations.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah. I was talking think of all the.

[Noel Brown]

Moves you can do. The way you can kind of whip it in front of your face in a show of mystique.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah. You can do a Dracula. You can do the shadow. You can also do a beautiful entrance and exit. Talking with our pal Holly Fry a few years ago, I kind of asked her about that because she also did a show for a while called Dressed, which is all about the history of fashion.

[Noel Brown]

Well, and she's also. She literally makes all of her own clothes.

[Ben Bolan]

That is true. And they're great.

[Noel Brown]

Mainly Star wars themed or Haunted Mansion themed.

[Ben Bolan]

So a nice inspirational thing. This tells us just how great our good friend Holly is. A nice inspirational anecdote about her. She hit me back and she said, ben, just be the change. Just start wearing a cape. And I said, I'm too short. And she said, that's what's stopping you. Your ideas and your preconceptions. So Holly also obviously rocks capes. Unanimously agree.

[Noel Brown]

I have a bit of a gray stripe in my hair that I think is kind of cool. And a lot of barbers seem to think it's cool. Holly thought it was really cool and thought I shouldn't stop there. And she brought me some silver hair dye to the office so that I could, like, lean into it even further. I'm like, but Holly, it's already silver. She's like, no, no, you can. Plus that gray streak up, you bad boy.

[Ben Bolan]

I can hear it in her voice. Make it pop. So these scarves were in addition to being cape fasteners. All right, that's the spoiler. That's the origin story. In addition to that function, they were known as kind of branding or uniform. Colorful patterns and designs. Again, not as intricate as obviously the designs that Dan flashes over at the shops by the creek, but still flashy.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, indeed. These colorful scarves did, in fact, at this point have somewhat of a function. But because, you know, they were. They were meant to secure another garment. But the king was more impressed with the fashion sense that they kind of represented. And Louis XIII decided he was going to co opt this fashion, these neckerchiefs, and require them to be worn at royal events. This is almost like the very first introduction of the Black tie affair.

[Ben Bolan]

Yes, yes, yes. Well done. This is, this is crazy because, you know, a lot of fashion trends come top down, some come bottom up, but a lot come top down. And the people of France, starting with the Richie Riches, first called this accessory a Croat C R O A T E after the Croatian mercenaries known to wear them.

[Noel Brown]

Would a Croat be a single Croatian?

[Ben Bolan]

Yes. But spelled differently.

[Noel Brown]

Yes, that's right. So it is a fun example that we see in this historic game of telephone that we're always looking at where a mispronunciation or just something being a little too hard for the average folks to say results in a word becoming a different word just for convenience sake. And then that word is the one that kind of just takes off.

[Ben Bolan]

And so the French public is calling this the Croat. And then it becomes, to your point, Noel, it becomes corrupted to la cravat or cravat or cravat in English.

[Noel Brown]

Exactly. And over the next couple of years, this fashion trend absolutely dominated across France and then eventually spread to the rest of Europe. There was a bit of a function still at this time. It was in fact a little more comfortable than what we know historically as these heavily starched linen ruffs that you'll often talk about. Oh, you know, yeah, the big round thing that goes all the way around the neck. And you'll often see in fancy portraits of royalty, it is absolutely absurd looking. But that's another example of a thing out of context that just looks idiotic and uncomfortable. But for whatever reason, it was considered super cool in the height of. Of trendiness.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, look at me. I can hire someone to fold my collars for me. Look at all the folds. That was their first damn flashes. So the cravat is cool because it's still showing off your neck flex, but it's way looser, it's way less restricting than these linen ruffs. And the cravats become more popular with the wealthy. They also become more and more intricate. They're increasingly elaborate, they're increasingly incorporating lace to their cravats, sophisticated knots, all the stuff. Like if you looked at the fanciest ties in this period of time, you would think, who else would wear this other than Mr. Worldwide? By which we mean pitbull, of course.

[Noel Brown]

And if you can picture it too, they did have a lot. I think I was maybe sort of misspoke when I described the ruff. There certainly were different types of roughs. The ones that I'm picturing are the. The ones that would go around in like a circle, like encircling your neck like a fricking planet. But then the other kinds of ruffs were much more the very fancy linen collars that would get stuffed into your shirt. The cravat was just a little bit more of a simplified version of that. But early cravats were intended to kind of be stuffed into the front of the shirt, which I don't know this for sure, Ben, but I imagine is where the expression stuffed shirt comes from when you're referring to a fancy boy who's like a little bit up his own but interesting.

[Ben Bolan]

I haven't looked into that etymology. Please find us on Ridiculous Historians on Facebook. We'd love to hear about this.

[Noel Brown]

This has been Noel's wildly speculative etymology corner.

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[Ben Bolan]

We do know a couple things. We do know that the cravat was not just a craze in France via Croatia. We know the cravat spread to other parts of Europe. When Charles ii, over in England, he's known for a few things. When he encountered the cravat and won the throne, he was all about this. So, again, the king is always the tastemaker. Right. That's why Castilian Spanish still has a manufactured lisp.

[Noel Brown]

La siento.

[Ben Bolan]

Right. Barcelona. So over the course of the next century, the cravat moves with the tantrums of empire. So it caught.

[Noel Brown]

I love that, Ben. That's great.

[Ben Bolan]

The tantrums of empire.

[Noel Brown]

I mean, it's very clear everyone totally understands what this means. This is about the monarch kicking and screaming and pounding their tiny fists and feet on the ground because they have to have what they want. And if you don't give it to them, then you will be beheaded.

[Ben Bolan]

And there we go. That's how the cravat catches on in Germany. And then, of course, our friends across the Atlantic, the English colonies, they start rocking this flex as well. At this point, there are numerous variations on the idea of the cravat, but still, they don't look like the relatively slim modern ties we see today. As a matter of fact, as we know here, Noel, people didn't even call them ties for a while.

[Noel Brown]

Well, it's sort of like the way you might call a particular style of hatred the Stetson, you know, or something like that. They were. It's almost a kind of form of branding. So you had a variation of a tie that Louis XIV was quite fond of called the steinkirk. That's the Steinkirk. It is with. Yeah. Sporting a single knot and a much narrower shape, beginning to resemble what we know today as the modern necktie.

[Ben Bolan]

This is where we see the setup for the stars of the song. Yankee Doodle Dandy stuck a feather in his cap and called it macaroni. Right, right. That is referring to the folks we mentioned before, the sort of metrosexuals of their time, the tastemakers. These young men who were fashion aficionados, I guess we would call them clothe horses. Right. They started in the late 1700s, tying their neckwear in increasingly difficult and intricate knots and styles which were sort of like a code so you could see someone and know their identifications, et cetera. Just like how. Honestly, like how punk dudes have different patches on their jackets.

[Noel Brown]

Of course. Yeah. Or people in, you know, motorcycle gangs.

[Ben Bolan]

Yes, as well. As. Well, everybody in a motorcycle gang. Thanks for tuning into this.

[Noel Brown]

Can we add, too, that the whole term of macaroni, it wasn't just referring to Italians. I mean, I guess we do also often think of Italian culture as being very high fashion as well. But it was a little bit more of a catchall term for. But it was kind of a pejorative. Right. Like, it wasn't a compliment. It was referring to people that dressed so fashionably, you know, in the styles of the time, that they kind of looked ridiculous.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, that was the idea. The idea was. Yeah. Calling someone a macaroni was not a compliment. It was saying, look at this, a fat, fancy boy, basically.

[Noel Brown]

There maybe was even a little bit of veiled homophobia in there.

[Ben Bolan]

There was an implication, for sure. And we see still the cravat or the idea of decorative neckwear. Neckerchiefs. It keeps getting adopted by powerful people. In the early 1800, this guy named Napoleon, who is most famous for a cameo appearance in Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure, he did some other stuff, and he was. He, you know, he got punked by a gang of rabbits one time. He also, during the Battle of Waterloo, rocked a cravat. And you. You had this great, great point, Noel, about the origin of a black tie event. It all goes back to a young dandy named Beau Brumel.

[Noel Brown]

Beau Brumel helped to really solidify the way we think of tying a tie or a cravat. He was a young, hip fashion icon and was a big fan of wearing a very complicatedly tied cravat. But when he did it, it was almost like a magic. You know, he had this style and flair with which he was able to tie his tie. That really turned heads.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah. And his style was expensive in terms of time. Just like when you see someone on Instagram or TikTok saying, here's my guide to how you do this thing.

[Noel Brown]

However, more like a cooking show where it's like, there's always the great Michelin Webb sketch that's making fun of Gordon Ramsay where he's like, you didn't even show the step where you did the potato thing. As far as I'm concerned, it might as well be magic.

[Ben Bolan]

Local ingredients simply cooked.

[Noel Brown]

Exactly.

[Ben Bolan]

Shakespeare's Just words in a certain order. That's a great.

[Noel Brown]

I'm not as good at this as you are.

[Ben Bolan]

Will you stay? Oh, gosh, what a great scene.

[Noel Brown]

Will you stay forever?

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

I'm sorry. Please watch this sketch. Just type in Gordon Ramsay, Mitchell and Weblook. It is very, very funny.

[Ben Bolan]

Honestly, type in Mitchell, Weblook and just go nuts.

[Noel Brown]

Are we the baddies? Also a good one, you.

[Ben Bolan]

And so the issue here, or the. I would say the allure is that Beau Brummel is able to ask people not to pay for expensive materials necessarily, but to pay with their time. So his style becomes a matter of technique rather than a matter of finance, which means middle class and upper class folks alike can say, oh, yeah, I know, Beau, here's my fancy, fancy thing. And because of this, now we see the evolution of the cravat from a decorative neck dressing to a very intricate thing. It's a statement of ability, not just a statement of socioeconomic status, which is.

[Noel Brown]

Neat because it does kind of level the playing field. Many ties today, you would really have to look very hard or like, flip it around and see the label to tell whether it was in fact a fancy tie or not. But what really does the trick and sets it off as part of an outfit is how well that half Windsor is tied and how well spaced it was. Because again, I have to look up a YouTube video every time and I still barely get it right. It really does require a little bit of precision to get it looking really sharp and have the right length, have the square of the knot perfectly spaced.

[Ben Bolan]

Hit your kick line. Yeah, this is all true. Women go crazy for a sharp dressed man. But we're also shouting out our buddy Beau Brummel here because Noel, he is the guy who started the trend of wearing black evening wear. He is the black tie event guy.

[Noel Brown]

He is indeed. I knew we were going to get there. A pamphlet was actually circulated called Necloftitania, which sounds kind of like a death metal band name a little bit. I. Could you picture this word when you're looking at it on paper written with unintelligible death metal script? Absolutely.

[Ben Bolan]

I could also see it being Neclotania. I could see being a H.P. lovecraft monster, like, totally Lou. It is the real title. It's a pamphlet that comes out in 1818 and it has 14 ways to tie a cravat. It probably possibly leads to the common phrase we use to describe this stuff today, the tie.

[Noel Brown]

Because it's so funny and I never would have thought about this, Ben, but the tie it refers more to the act than the object.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, the verb. Right. Because as the knot becomes more important than the material used to create the knot, as that inversion or inflection point hits, people are more now referring to the act of the tie. I don't care if it's made of silk or, you know, a common cotton thread. I want to see how you rolled it. Did you do a mathematical. Did you do the American, the Irish, the Mail coach? These are all knots that are in the reverse cowgirl.

[Noel Brown]

No, all the good ones.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah. Yeah, all the good ones. Did you get. Did you get it Doggy style?

[Noel Brown]

But it is. But it is interesting, though, because it does sort of like. It's a different kind of exclusivity, you know, that's not based. It's based on kind of like being in the know rather than, you know, necessarily having a ton of money.

[Ben Bolan]

Right. Yeah, It's. It's arguably merit. Meritocratic. Right. If you can figure out how to tie the knot, then someone may say, you know, sir, I cannot respect your fabric, but I am in awe of your tact.

[Noel Brown]

Yes.

[Ben Bolan]

Your abilities, your knotting abilities. And for a while, yeah, obviously, this was one of those. Why would you do it Flexes. Just like most people don't own a yacht Today, until the 1860s, most people didn't own a fancy cravat or a tie. We know that by 1840, people had started saying tie instead of cravat. But until, like, it took 20 years until the 1860s, the tie was handmade, right? Fashioned from muslin or lace or linen. And then it had to be constantly laundered and pressed. That's usually going to be done by servants. So only the fancy boys wore it because these things were a pain in the keister when it came to upkeep. It was a status symbol. It said, I can hire people to do. You beat me here, Max. It said, I can hire people to do for me. This episode of ridiculous history is brought to you by ebay Motors.

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Responsibly Terms and conditions supply See website for details at highthenumber5casino.com High5casino and it remains a status similar to this day in business. For example, you know, there are professions where if you're not wearing a suit and tie to work, you are not considered professional and you will get dinged, you know, and possibly even told to go home and change. There are certain restaurants, for example high fine dining restaurants, where they will have a suit and tie on, you know, like on to to loan out to folks who dare show up, you know, not dress properly.

[Ben Bolan]

Yes, yeah, that's true. They'll have the loner suit for you. We we do have the Industrial Revolution to thank or accuse for the popularity of the necktie. During the late 1800s in the west, working professionals became increasingly aware of how they looked to your point, when they were out in public. And the tie provided a way to mark their appearance as an individual of note, similar to certain hats. So more and more men in the middle class are dressing for success. They want to be upwardly mobile. They want to have a tie, a nice hat, a nice suit, perhaps a seersucker. And the industries of the world answer them. The sewing machine is invented, the assembly Line is invented. It is easier now at this point in time to buy a tie because they're no longer hand made. You can go to a store and they may have, you know, 50 ties. They may have three different varieties of ties. Find the one that fits for you. So this is increased availability, continued popularity. The fanciest dandies in London are wearing this, which makes them taste makers. People are following them along and they just keep getting more and more complicated with the knots. I think there was like an arms race.

[Noel Brown]

Sure.

[Ben Bolan]

Fanciest necktie knot.

[Noel Brown]

I mean, Ben, knotting is in its own right, kind of a form of technology, you know, 100%. Yeah. And really quickly. But am I the only one that whenever I hear seersucker, it just sounds like an insult to me.

[Ben Bolan]

That's funny. I do like it. It's not where you could call someone a seersucker. We should do that next time we're in a different country together.

[Noel Brown]

Absolutely.

[Ben Bolan]

We mentioned the American, the Irish, the male coach, et cetera, et cetera. Excuse me. We should also mention the Four in Hand, not one of the most well known conventional tie knots today. It was created in the 1800s. Why did it get the name?

[Noel Brown]

Ah, the four in hand being better than one in bush.

[Ben Bolan]

Yes, yes.

[Noel Brown]

If I'm not mistaken. No, the knot actually resembled the way a driver would tie the reins to their carriage pull, or the harness, I guess. What would you call it? The yoke or whatever that was attached to the four horses drawing the carriage. So the name did feel kind of like a natural.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, yeah. Because it looked like that. Think Four in Hand. Four Horses in Hand. There's another theory that it's named specifically after a famous carriage driving club in London, the Four in Hand. And that they love the branding and helped popularize the knot. This is where we see another neck accessory come into play. The Ascot, named for the Royal Ascot race.

[Noel Brown]

And then of course, course, Kiss My Royal Ascot.

[Ben Bolan]

And then of course, the problematic. Loved by some, hated by others. The bow tie.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, it's a. It's a vibe, you know, it is definitely a vibe, but it is. It has come to occupy a different kind of echelon, I guess, of, you know, fashion choice policy wonks, Kentucky Derby types.

[Ben Bolan]

I had to. Did I tell you?

[Noel Brown]

Nation of Island Islam, really popular with. With their. With their bow ties.

[Ben Bolan]

Did I tell you I had to wear a bow tie recently?

[Noel Brown]

Who forced you to do this and why did they hurt you?

[Ben Bolan]

You know, I had that Knoxville thing, so.

[Noel Brown]

That's right.

[Ben Bolan]

I had to wear A bow tie for a thing.

[Noel Brown]

But Knoxville does seem like bow tie country.

[Ben Bolan]

Yes. Shout out to our. Our pal Tylan Fagan, who is from See Dandy. Well, in my defense, I do know how to tie a bow tie, so I wasn't wearing a clip on, which is apparently the fashion sin.

[Noel Brown]

Really? Oh, sin. Thank you. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Because you can tell. You can tell.

[Ben Bolan]

You could always tell for sure. So in the 1920s, we know that a New York tie maker named Jesse Langsdorf changed the game because he figured out you could cut fabric at an angle and then sew it together in three segments, which allowed a tie to go back to its original shape after you curled it and knotted it around your neck. Which meant now you didn't have to have a team of servants to continually launder and press your tie. Makes it even more accessible for people around the world.

[Noel Brown]

Well, not to mention that Langdorf's tie, the fabric of it was very, I guess, springy, and it would kind of retain its shape a lot better than the previous types of fabric where you would have to press them and lock in order for them to keep their shapes. Yeah.

[Ben Bolan]

And there were other moments of evolution along the way. The Duke of Windsor created the Windsor knot.

[Noel Brown]

But is there a full Windsor? I'm sorry, I was half joking earlier, but. Half joking. The half Windsor is the one we know that I think is the most popular kind of basic knot for a necktie. But is there a full Windsor?

[Ben Bolan]

Is there a fool?

[Noel Brown]

I don't think there is. There is.

[Max Williams]

Yes, 100%. Yeah. My friend Vic is a big fan of that one. Basically, way he described it to me is just another. You just go around.

[Noel Brown]

Another rap.

[Max Williams]

Yeah, another go around. So you just need. You have to have the rabbit for.

[Noel Brown]

Another lap around the tree, Right?

[Max Williams]

Exactly. You just need a longer tie to do it. You can't do with a standard tie.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah. We also know. We also know that ties in bright colors and celebratory Dan slash patterns were introduced in the post World War II boom. They're still kind of popular. 1950s. You see the skinny tie as well.

[Noel Brown]

I like the skinny tie. I think it's kind of, kind of, kind of hip.

[Ben Bolan]

I prefer skinny tie. David lynch is a skinny tie guy. That's my guy with me. Yeah, I. The men in black, they got skinny ties, you know what I mean? David Ducovy as Fox Mulder, skinny tie.

[Noel Brown]

I just find them to be sharp and a little less old fashioned looking, you know?

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah. Because what we're talking about is in Contrast to the 1970s, extra large ties. They were called kipper ties. You know, they're the ones that almost look like a clown would wear them.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, 100% very cartoonish. Yes.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah. And today there are hundreds of other interesting things about ties. You know, the. It's a work in progress. It continues today. It does not serve a physical function. It serves a socioeconomic function. And there are all sorts of arbitrary rules about where and why you should wear a tie a specific way, why you shouldn't, what is appropriate, what's not, what's not. I think they're. Thank you for that. Thank you for that rim shot, Max.

[Noel Brown]

Can you hear my head shake?

[Ben Bolan]

I could hear your.

[Noel Brown]

Am I moving air around with my.

[Ben Bolan]

So that's our. That's our show. That is the history of neckties. We solved it. No. Can I give you.

[Noel Brown]

Can I give you props, though, real quick, Ben, for finding a copy of this necklace Titania pamphlet. And it does have just these lovely little diagrams. Let's see, what do we have here? Let me zoom in. We've got the Oriental.

[Ben Bolan]

Ooh. That age. So.

[Noel Brown]

Well, the Napoleon, which is a little bit more of like an old timey kind of just draped.

[Ben Bolan]

It looks super lazy.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, very. I agree. The American, which is sort of just tied in the middle. And none of these really outside of the.

[Ben Bolan]

What is.

[Noel Brown]

I can't read the text because it's all written in very flourishy handwriting and it's a little bit of a low res graphic. But very few of these tie methods resemble the modern necktie. Except for this sixth one down, which again, I can't read it. It's like the male coach.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, the male coach.

[Noel Brown]

Okay, male coach. That one has it hanging straight down. But most of these other ones look more like you got a bow tied around your neck.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah. And they all look like they're turtleneck necks for some reason.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah. Or like really high collared kind of. You know, those starched high collars. And then at the bottom it shows you the way of folding it, I guess to preserve the shape for when you're storing it and when you're done with your fancy ties.

[Ben Bolan]

So weird, dude. Also, do people wear ties with turtlenecks?

[Noel Brown]

That would be. That's like putting a hat on a hat.

[Ben Bolan]

That's suspenders plus a belt, isn't it?

[Noel Brown]

Exactly. Seems a little unga pachka, to quote my favorite podcast, the dough boys.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, we know. Still, nec neckties showed no signs of abating in popularity. They're the most famous gift given on father's day here.

[Noel Brown]

Bordering on lazy.

[Ben Bolan]

Right? Like it gets well into the territory of lazy.

[Noel Brown]

I think so too. Unless it's a tradition and your father truly does just love ties and you're. You're picking out something very clever that they would enjoy.

[Ben Bolan]

He might just put up with it.

[Max Williams]

To jump in here real quick. It is actually funny because now at the Williams household, it's much more likely for my father to give me a tie than the other way around.

[Ben Bolan]

Good.

[Noel Brown]

The terms tabled.

[Ben Bolan]

Yeah, perfect. Like the office. Get your numbers up. I'm just yelling about numbers. There are there.

[Noel Brown]

It is a numbers game, Ben.

[Ben Bolan]

It is a numbers game. One other thing we should say before we end. There is a word, and this will help our pals at the Williams compound. There is a word for people who collect ties. Gravitologist.

[Noel Brown]

Give me that. Give me that. Give me that necktie. I'm gonna snatch off your necktie and add it to my collect. I'm a gravitologist. That's hilarious.

[Ben Bolan]

It sounds like something we would have made up just hanging out.

[Noel Brown]

Have we talked about oolooloolologists? Oolologists. It's an egg thing. It's like someone who studies eggs. I learned it from this game that I love and I've become obsessed with and it's changed my relationship with birds. It's called Wingspan.

[Ben Bolan]

Wingspan.

[Noel Brown]

And there's a particular type of bonus card that involves collecting lots of eggs in particular habitats in the game. And it's is the oolologist card.

[Ben Bolan]

Oh, fascinating. Okay. I was thinking of ululation, but that's definitely a different thing. This is cool. I look forward to playing Wingspan with you in the future. And folks, we look forward to hearing your crazy necktie stories. Yes, the current most expensive necktie in the world cost around $220,000. Buy it new. It's got diamonds on it is the main thing. And if we've said anything off, perhaps it's because we are translating from a non English language. If that is the case, if that is funny or interesting to you, join us. Yeah, join us later this week because what are we doing?

[Noel Brown]

We're doing History of. Well, it's going to be probably one in a series. I don't think we've started this series yet. History of Weird and Ridiculous Mistreatment.

[Max Williams]

We have started the series.

[Noel Brown]

Okay, well, then we're back in.

[Ben Bolan]

Baby. Big big thanks to super producer Mr. Max Williams. Big, big thanks to Jonathan Strickland, aka the Quister, as well as Eve's Jeff goat, Christopher Haciotes. Here in spirit.

[Noel Brown]

Can we just say huge congratulations to Jonathan Strickland, aka the Quister, for I guess 16 years of the podcast Tech Stuff. And he is going to be stepping down from that show soon and I think we're going to be doing some guesting on his last episodes of Tech Stuff, so be on the lookout for that. We'll let you know when those are coming. But love that guy. Hate that guy. Love that guy.

[Ben Bolan]

Jonathan, answer my text. Anyway, so big big thanks to of course aj Bahamas, J. Jacobs, big big thanks to Gabe Luzier, the rude dudes over at Ridiculous Crime. And Noel, big big thanks to you, my guy.

[Noel Brown]

Ah, you as well, Ben. We'll see you next time folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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