The Ridiculous History of the 90s and Low Culture, with Ross Benes

Summary

Podcast Summary: Ridiculous History - The Ridiculous History of the 90s and Low Culture, with Ross Benes

Release Date: September 23, 2025
Hosts: Ben Bowlin & Noel Brown
Guest: Ross Benes (Author of 1999: The Year Low Culture Conquered America and Kickstarted Our Bizarre Times)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deeply into the ridiculous and influential aspects of 1990s "low culture," examining why the notorious, sometimes derided entertainment and trends of the era left such a lasting cultural legacy. With returning guest Ross Benes, the hosts explore the phenomena that defined the final years of the 20th century—from trash TV and nu metal to Beanie Babies and the impact of media deregulation—while reflecting on how the “low” elements of the 90s set the stage for the world we inhabit today.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Enduring Legacy of the 1990s

Timestamps: [00:45], [01:08]

• The hosts open by marveling at the continued relevance of the 90s and their impact on today’s pop culture.
  • Alex Williams: “It's something that is surprisingly long ago, but I think still very present in culture today, like cultural memory.”
• They note the cyclical nature of nostalgia, with Gen Z and Gen Alpha reviving 90s trends such as JNCO jeans.
  • Noel Brown: “The big floppy pants with like built in chains and rings and stuff are like hugely back with the Gen Z and Gen Alpha kids.” [01:23]

2. Defining "Low Culture"

Timestamps: [10:15], [11:17]

• Ross Benes introduces the concept of “low culture” as the pop culture that is most ridiculed and derided in its time—think Jerry Springer, Limp Bizkit, and nu metal.
  • Ross Benes: “It's the pop culture that is the most mocked and ridiculed of its era.” [10:15]
• They discuss iconic “trash TV” like Jerry Springer and Maury Povich—shows that blurred the lines between reality, performance, and exploitation.

3. Daytime Talk Shows as Precursors to Reality TV

Timestamps: [12:24], [15:17]

• The hosts and Ross compare the sensational nature of Springer-style talk shows to professional wrestling, where “kayfabe” (the performance of reality) reigns.
  • Alex Williams: “Springer... has a bit of a narrative tie-in with the format of wrestling. In that it very much purports to be true. And everybody kind of has a kayfabe nod and wink about whether or not this is indeed reality.” [12:24]
• They trace the lineage from these talk shows to the explosion of reality TV in the late 90s and early 2000s, highlighting the shared use of cheap production, engineered conflict, and manufactured authenticity.
  • Ross Benes: “They're way cheaper than scripted content to produce…you're filming people reacting to engineered situations.” [15:17]

4. Trash TV's Cultural Influence & Crossovers

Timestamps: [25:10], [27:15]

• Trash TV figures like Jerry Springer permeated mainstream culture, making cameos in films (Austin Powers: The Spy Who Shagged Me), releasing merchandise, and even touring college campuses.
  • Ross Benes: “Springer had a spring break tour…He had a movie made about him…He thought about running for Congress…” [25:10]
• The entire genre's style—manufactured conflict, spectacle—spread to movies, politics, and beyond.

5. The Blurring of Entertainment and Politics

Timestamps: [28:21], [29:05]

• 1999 saw the rise of politicians with entertainment backgrounds (e.g., Jesse Ventura, Donald Trump’s first presidential tease on Larry King), symbolizing the growing overlap between celebrity, media, and political power.
  • Ross Benes: “Jesse Ventura became governor in 99. Trump actually announced his first presidential run in 1999 on the Larry King Show.” [28:49]

6. 1999 – The Pinnacle Year for Movies, Technology, and Cultural Shifts

Timestamps: [31:14], [33:03]

• The group outlines why 1999 is often cited as an iconic movie year, mentioning classics like The Matrix, Fight Club, The Sixth Sense, and The Blair Witch Project that reflected both indie innovation and blockbuster spectacle.
  • Noel Brown: “I mean, just to name a favorite…Blair Witch Project…was the first and probably most iconic…meant to be found footage…” [31:42]
• Ross highlights that 1999 marked a technological pivot: with the launch of Napster and TiVo, it was the dawn of digital consumption and file sharing.
  • Ross Benes: “99 is probably the most pivotal year in transitioning to digital consumption of media because Napster and TiVo both come out that year.” [35:23]

7. Cultural Fads, Video Games, and the Tangible ‘90s

Timestamps: [44:13], [46:06]

• Beanie Babies and other collectible crazes underscore the era’s consumer quirks—haunted in hindsight by the quick obsolescence of such trends.
• The conversation moves to the impact of 1999 in video games: Tony Hawk Pro Skater, Silent Hill, Super Smash Bros., GTA 2, and the Dreamcast system—all launched around this time.
• Ross notes, “Gaming's really in the social consciousness due to attempts to regulate and ban it following Columbine.” [46:06]

8. The Darker Side of the ‘90s

Timestamps: [39:54], [48:50]

• Ross cautions against overly rosy nostalgia, pointing to the dark undercurrent of the decade—rising anxieties around technology (Y2K), media censorship debates following tragedies like Columbine, and rapid cultural/political change.
  • Ross Benes: "I think the 90s...are actually gonna be viewed as more contentious…because of the birth of the Internet and the way it disrupted media." [40:12]

9. Lasting Impact and Reappraisal

Timestamps: [51:19]

• The episode ends with reflections on how “recent history” rapidly accrues new relevance with time and the enduring fascination with “low culture.”
  • Alex Williams: “Isn't that the nature of history? The further you move into the future, the more recent history becomes truly meaningful.” [51:19]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Low Culture’s Appeal:
  • Ross Benes: “It's mostly just trashy entertainment...it's the pop culture that is the most mocked and ridiculed of its era.” [10:15]
• On the Blurring of Reality and Performance:
  • Alex Williams: "Springer...has a bit of a narrative tie-in with the format of wrestling...everybody kind of has a kayfabe nod and wink about whether or not this is indeed reality." [12:24]
• On the Explosion of Reality TV:
  • Ross Benes: “They're way cheaper than scripted content to produce…you're filming people reacting to engineered situations.” [15:17]
• On Media and Politics:
  • Noel Brown: “Circuses, man. I mean, it's totally like gladiator battles...that's the lowest form of entertainment, you know, in ancient Rome for example. But the funny thing is, you know who else likes gladiator battles? Rich people, Smart people.” [27:15]
• On 1999 as The Cultural Tipping Point:
  • Noel Brown quoting David Bowie: “I don't think that we've even seen the top of the iceberg. I think the potential of what the Internet is gonna do to society, both good and bad, is unimaginable…It's an alien life form, and it is going to crush our ideas of what mediums are all about.” [41:29]

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Major Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro & 90s Nostalgia: [00:36] – [02:02]
• Defining Low Culture: [10:15] – [11:17]
• Daytime Talk Shows & Reality TV Origins: [11:17] – [17:54]
• Deregulation and Media Economics: [22:46] – [24:03]
• Cultural Penetration of Trash TV: [25:10] – [27:15]
• Entertainment-Politics Blend: [28:21] – [30:00]
• 99 as a Movie & Tech Year: [31:14] – [36:05]
• Digital Media Shift (Napster/TiVo): [35:23] – [36:09]
• The 90s in Hindsight & The Dark Undercurrents: [39:54] – [41:29]
• Fads, Games, and Cultural Clutter: [44:13] – [46:29]

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Closing Thoughts

• The episode concludes with Ross reflecting on being a new parent and seeing the 90s through a future lens. He emphasizes that much of what seems “ridiculous” or “low” about the era eventually reshaped mainstream culture and politics.
  • “...the 90s will really look...like this is what put us on the path to where we are today. A lot of it due to the digitization of communication and media...” [40:12]

Ross Benes’ book, 1999: The Year Low Culture Conquered America and Kickstarted Our Bizarre Times, is recommended for anyone fascinated by the intersection of pop, politics, and the transformation of media at the cusp of the digital age.

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Guest Info:
Website: RossBenes.com

Listen for more Ridiculous History:
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Transcript

[Alex Williams]

Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to the show, fellow ridiculous historians. Thank you as always, so much for tuning in. Let's hear if our super producer, Mr. Max. 1990s Williams.

[Noel Brown]

Max. He loves the 90s. Williams. We all love. We live the 90s. We have mixed feelings about the 90s. No, I don't know. Mainly good, mainly positive.

[Alex Williams]

I'm still processing it. It's still too soon.

[Noel Brown]

These things take time.

[Alex Williams]

Yeah. I've been bullen, you're Noel Brown. And we have long been mystified by the 1990s because it's something that is surprisingly long ago, but I think still very present in culture today, like cultural memory.

[Noel Brown]

It left a mark.

[Alex Williams]

No question it left a mark. It left some jinkos. It left.

[Noel Brown]

The jinkos are back, dude. They're so back.

[Alex Williams]

But they're expensive.

[Noel Brown]

They were expensive then. I mean, we could always run the inflation calculator, but they were always a bit of a luxury.

[Alex Williams]

Good.

[Noel Brown]

But yeah, the big floppy pants with like built in chains and rings and stuff are like hugely back with the Gen Z and Gen Alpha kids. Yeah.

[Alex Williams]

Because they share that same cultural fascination with the ridiculous history of the 1990s.

[Noel Brown]

Well, it's sort of the way I think maybe we feel about the 60s or the 70s where we're like nostalgic for an era that we never lived through. And that is with the Internet and with all the information out there and the ability to deep dive into all this stuff and the algorithms of music, et cetera. It's like you can feel like you were there in a way and there is this built in nostalgia for a time that these kids had no participation in.

[Alex Williams]

And that is an excellent setup for today's episode.

[Ross Benish]

This is an Iheart podcast.

[Noel Brown]

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[Noel Brown]

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[Alex Williams]

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[Alex Williams]

The 1990s, especially what people call low culture. We're not doing this alone, Noel. We have a returning guest, the legendary author and journalist and researcher Ross Benish. You have heard him on our earlier episode, Ridiculous History of Sex.

[Noel Brown]

Man, I'm so bummed that I missed that. I still don't know anything about sex. I don't even know how it works. That would have been mega educational for me.

[Alex Williams]

It's pretty ridiculous. You've read Ross's work in Entertainment Weekly, Esquire. You've read him in Mental Floss, a personal favorite of ours. Pretty much any magazine or publication you can imagine. Ross is also the author of 1999 the Year Low Culture Conquered America and Kickstarted Our Bizarre Times. Ross, welcome back to the show, man. Thanks for the second date.

[Ross Benish]

Hey, it's good to be back. And I wish I was wearing JNCOs for this one. You guys got me thinking about how much denim are in those pants.

[Noel Brown]

I owned a jnco. Just one.

[Ross Benish]

Just one jnco.

[Noel Brown]

Just a single jnco. And it was not even particularly floppy. It was just like a jean, really, with a slightly wide leg.

[Ross Benish]

With the tariffs, though, and the amount of denim, I could see the price rising.

[Alex Williams]

Oh, yeah, and the nostalgia tax.

[Noel Brown]

That's what I had to call it. Nostalgia.

[Alex Williams]

Yeah. It's funny that we're mentioning owning one pair of JNCOs or one JNCO, because I think for a lot of children in the 90s, that was a heady and heavy negotiation with the parentals. You know what?

[Noel Brown]

I'm jncos, man. Still is. Yeah.

[Alex Williams]

And, Ross, we had such a great time with you and our fellow ridiculous historians getting Into a very PG13 episode about sex history. And you came to us and said, guys, what do you think about the 90s? And we immediately, again, went down the rabbit hole of nostalgia. We want to talk about so much stuff.

[Noel Brown]

90S was all about sex, y'.

[Alex Williams]

All.

[Noel Brown]

Well.

[Alex Williams]

Maybe we started this way. Ross, in your latest book, which was published just earlier this year, you specifically call out the year 1999. Could you tell us why and how you landed on that date in particular?

[Ross Benish]

Well, 99 is just sillier and more ridiculous than the years around it. And part of that's because of, like, Y2K paranoia and all the, like, silly stunts that were done around the turn of the century. But I feel like that era in general has been really influential. Like, the pop culture that was there has influenced our society in a lot of strange ways that we're going to dive into. But, like, if you want to write about something being over the top, 99 is certainly more over the top than 98 or 1 is.

[Noel Brown]

It was the year of Limp Bizkit. It was the year of Woodstock. 99. I mean, how much more ridiculous than that does it get now?

[Alex Williams]

A song about it?

[Noel Brown]

Dude, he was looking ahead for sure.

[Ross Benish]

So about the Prince song when it was New year's day in 1999, like, 1998, going to 1999. MTV had limp Bizkit playing that song at midnight. You know, they're not gonna have prints, but like, what's the sign of the times for 1999? It's nu metal, baby.

[Noel Brown]

Which is also back in a big way. For better or worse? Largely worse. And I'm not quite sure if people really like it or like it ironically. It's unclear.

[Ross Benish]

It doesn't matter. As long as they're getting attention at this point.

[Noel Brown]

You know what? And I say whether or not you like something ironically, at the end of the day, you just like it. And something ironic eventually just becomes a thing that you dig.

[Alex Williams]

You, you and Hobo Johnson a million.

[Noel Brown]

First of all, I never liked him ironically. I disliked him very genuinely.

[Ross Benish]

I like the Insane Clown Posse, and I know a lot of people who follow them have an ironic appreciation. But like, when I know, like, you know all the words to the songs on the entire Great Malenko album.

[Noel Brown]

I know the Great Malenko.

[Ross Benish]

That's what I had on Iron.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, I guys went to ozfest99. I was there. Like, I mean, that's like. They should have written that into my LCD sound system.

[Ross Benish]

Come out of a 13 foot tall toilet at that.

[Noel Brown]

That was later because this they didn't play. Yeah, it was. I think it was a Black Sabbath headlined. I remember, like Slayer played. I'm trying, like Slipknot. That was before they were big and I saw them, they were on the small stage. But boy, if you look at pictures of kids at those shows in those days, what an incredible time capsule for this stuff that we're talking about.

[Alex Williams]

Oh, absolutely. And part of we're dancing around here is a concept that you introduced us to, off air Ross, which is the idea of low culture. Could you tell us a little bit about what we mean by low culture and what makes it ridiculous history?

[Ross Benish]

So it's mostly just trashy entertainment. But the way I see it is it's the pop culture that is the most mocked and ridiculed of its era. So, like, Limp Bizkit, you know, would be on there. Like, Jerry Springer was rated as having the worst show of all time on TV Guide. So many people were trying to cancel that show.

[Noel Brown]

If you buy worse. You mean best.

[Ross Benish]

Yeah, yeah, totally. Right. The viewership was. Was through the roof.

[Alex Williams]

But like, so much for paternity test.

[Ross Benish]

Well, that was Maury Povich.

[Alex Williams]

Maury Povich.

[Ross Benish]

Maury Povich for the paternity test.

[Alex Williams]

Okay.

[Noel Brown]

Springer was about the chair combat though, right? Or maybe that was just a general.

[Ross Benish]

Thing, like, you know, weird sexual triangles.

[Alex Williams]

With family members and the eccentric characters.

[Ross Benish]

Adults in diapers.

[Alex Williams]

Yeah. Or like a KKK guy.

[Noel Brown]

Not to get too into it already, but, like, he was really just a product of a lot of the daytime stuff that came before him, like the Sally Jesse Raphaels and Phil Donahues of the one. He just sort of elevated it to, dare I say, kind of like a perfectly packaged art form, you know?

[Alex Williams]

Yeah, let's get into it. Yeah. Daytime talk shows, very much a genre of their time and definitely fits your definition of low culture. Ross, without putting you on the spot or dating you too hard. Were you watching those?

[Ross Benish]

I was, but I was way too young from the suggested age. So I was 9 years old in 1999. Well, actually 10 for most of us. So I was 10 years old. And I'd watch Jerry Springer at my parents at night with. Yeah, with my parents. We thought it was funny as hell. You know, my parents were old when they had me. My siblings are a lot older and they had just given up. So, like, 9:30, Jerry Springer comes on Fox 42.

[Noel Brown]

You know, what part of the country is this in?

[Ross Benish]

Rural Nebraska.

[Noel Brown]

Cool. Even better. Adds to the flavor of the story.

[Ross Benish]

Yeah, we just had fun with it. It was just like, we didn't take it seriously. We're just laughing our ass off the whole time.

[Alex Williams]

Now, this is interesting because Springer, especially has a bit of a narrative tie in with the format of wrestling. Right. In that it very much purports to be true. And everybody kind of has a kayfabe nod and wink about whether or not this is indeed reality. When you were a kid watching these shows with your parents, did you think these were real people?

[Ross Benish]

I doubted they were real people. I actually believe more in them being real people now than I did as a kid.

[Noel Brown]

That's what I'm saying. They were real people, though, right? It was just, like, zhuzhed up, I.

[Ross Benish]

Think, for most of them. I'm sure they had thousands of episodes of all these shows. Sally, Jerry, Ricky, they all had thousands of episodes. So I'm sure there are plants, like, you know, staged conflicts almost. Actors. Yeah, I'm sure that exists. Christian actors. Yeah.

[Alex Williams]

Or like how court shows will have, frankly, comedians and working actors come on as characters with a.

[Ross Benish]

They gotta feel some airtime.

[Alex Williams]

Yeah.

[Ross Benish]

But there are some genuine people in there. And you know that because there are court cases that happen with some of these guests that, like, the stuff that's involved in the case is from the real life, what they discussed on the show. So.

[Noel Brown]

And people who got book deals, you Know, because maybe there was like, I mean, this is almost like mimetic content. Before that was a thing where you would have these characters that would just penetrate the zeitgeist in that same way. Before, there really were like image macro memes.

[Ross Benish]

Yeah. Like, I think of Cash Me Outside a million.

[Noel Brown]

And now she's a big rapper. Bad Baby.

[Ross Benish]

Yeah. Yeah. That was a little bit later than early 2000s, but same concept.

[Alex Williams]

Yeah. This is also. This is funny because since it's. Before podcasting, in a way, daytime talk shows were like unhinged podcast.

[Noel Brown]

They were long form. They were a single kind of, or maybe just segmented narrative structure. They weren't sound bite based. The idea was that you were witnessing a thing happening in real time that was supposedly, you know, quote, unquote, authenticity.

[Alex Williams]

And the producers were the hidden hand. Right. They were the ones who were off to the left of camera and saying, okay, chant this, chant this.

[Noel Brown]

Well, to that point, though, Russ, would you argue perhaps that these daytime shows were like a precursor to reality tv? Because there's certainly that same. What's the word I'm looking for? Cadre of producers sort of manipulating things from behind the scenes. But it just gets way more overt and don't give a about, like, maintaining any semblance of true reality. When we started seeing reality tv, where everything's episodic and edited.

[Ross Benish]

Yeah. Well, so they're. They're very similar in a few ways. You know, one of them is that they're way cheaper than scripted content to produce. So, like, the reason why things like talk shows were sought after or why so many TV networks made reality shows in the late 90s and early 2000s is because they were low. Like, they were low grade production costs, like just bare bones. You're filming people reacting to engineered situations. And the way you would create a character like those, whether it's Jerry or Maury, they're playing almost fictionalized versions of themselves.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, 100%.

[Ross Benish]

And they're aware of it. You see that same thing when reality TV starts to mature. Like someone goes on the Real World season five, they know what the stock type of characters are and how they can play up to it to get more camera time. So I think if you watch the Real Housewives and you see the fights that they have, you know, a lot of that is really copied from the Jerry Springer playbook, 100%.

[Noel Brown]

I actually, a long time ago with a buddy friend of the show, Paul Decent, I think this was before he was working with us, Ben, he had a buddy who made These like, Sizzle kind of pilots for trying to sell reality concepts. And I worked on one as like a sound guy holding the boom. And it was. I mean, the name is just the most tone deaf thing ever. It was about these, like, wealthy white ladies living out in Buckhead, which is like a bougie part of Atlanta. And it was called. They had a fashion line in their basement. And the show I you not was called the Underground Runway.

[Ross Benish]

Oh, my God.

[Alex Williams]

Well, not everything's gonna be a winner, right?

[Noel Brown]

And. And they had a fiery Eastern European woman who they manufactured, like getting a, a, a sex toy sent in the mail to the house from an admirer and opening it. And everyone was aghast and just like, totally this trash, you know, all the. It was absolutely made up. And the way they coach those confessionals, it's pure fiction. They are line reading. It is wild.

[Alex Williams]

I've been on some pilots or sizzle things like you're describing there, Noel, for a couple of shows we've done in the past and encountered the producer sweetening firsthand. And it is an art, I would say it is a sith art. It is a dark art, but an art nonetheless.

[Noel Brown]

And frankenbiting is a term. Frankenbiting thrown around. Frankenstein.

[Alex Williams]

Yeah, yeah. You want to define that for anybody who doesn't know.

[Noel Brown]

It's just cut up, like, you know, piecing together lines where you cut away so you don't see the person's mouth moving. And you can basically just combine different takes or different things to make a sentence that suits your narrative.

[Alex Williams]

Yeah. So you have, you have raw audio of someone saying, actually, I like green tea. And then you have another clip of them saying, you know, I hate the Welsh. And then you. Or something.

[Noel Brown]

I think you would be more likely to manufacture the I hate the Welsh. No, we're with.

[Alex Williams]

You would say, I, I love green tea, but I hate coffee. And you would franken bite that like you're saying no by splicing and things. So it sounds like, I love the British, but I hate the Welsh.

[Noel Brown]

Boom. Game on. Let's get into a soccer hooligan throwdown.

[Alex Williams]

This episode of Ridiculous History is brought to you by American Public University.

[American Public University Announcer]

American Public University is the number one provider of education to our military and veterans in the country.

[Alex Williams]

They offer something truly unique. Special rates and grants for the entire family, making education affordable not just for those who serve, but also for their loved ones.

[American Public University Announcer]

If you have a military or veteran family member and are looking for affordable, high quality education, APU is the place for you.

[Alex Williams]

So Visit Apu Apus Edu Military to learn more today.

[American Public University Announcer]

That's Apu Apus Edumilitary.

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[Noel Brown]

Yeah, I mean, can you talk a little bit more about that? Cause I mean, I guess for you the daytime trash TV is sort of a bridge into the absolute takeover of reality tv after, I guess we're talking about Ozzy again. Shows like the Osbourne.

[Ross Benish]

Yeah, so. Well, in the late 90s, you start to see a lot more reality TV on broadcast TV. Like you have Big Brother survivors in 2000. You know, you have the reality game shows like who Wants to Be a Millionaire. A lot of those happen because there's a deregulation of the financial syndication interest rules that allow TV networks to produce their own primetime series. They no longer have to go and syndicate them from elsewhere. And so that totally changes the incentive.

[Noel Brown]

I'm so sorry, I don't know about this at all. Can you explain a little more about that law change?

[Ross Benish]

Yeah. So from the 70s until the mid-90s, there were these laws that prevented broadcast TV networks from owning most of their primetime programming. They couldn't produce it themselves. It was an anti monopoly law. So they would have to go out and get their content from elsewhere. Once they could produce it themselves, they wanted to make it as cheaply as possible. And they just followed the same playbook that the daytime shows already were doing. Because the daytime shows were all by syndicators. Yeah, like, like Jerry Springer wasn't on one TV network. It depended on where you live, what Jerry Springer would be on.

[Alex Williams]

Like you could be on 42, Fox, 13, etc.

[Ross Benish]

If you lived in, you know, like the west coast, it could be cbs. If you lived in the south, it could be NBC. You might even have it on two or three stations, just depending on what, like who wants to license it. So, you know, in the 90s, that deregulation, other deregulations happened that basically encourage these huge media corporations to produce content as cheaply as possible to reach as many people as possible. To just go like shallow and broad. And that encourages a reality TV boom. And then later you get another boom. Cause of the writers strike in 2007.

[Alex Williams]

Right? Yeah. And that's a great tie in when we're on the 90s. We have to admit, for anybody who, even if you hate Daytime talk tv, that genre.

[Ross Benish]

And that time it proved what was successful, though. Like, what sort of style of conversation is successful?

[Alex Williams]

Right, right. Few people, few studios have ever lost money pandering to the lowest common denominator. You know what I mean? Unfortunately, that is part of what these genres proved. And they also, as you point out, they also made this tremendous cultural impact way beyond media. Right. We always know that in the 1990s and early 2000s, a cultural hallmark was being big enough to be mentioned on the Simpsons. Right. That's when you knew you made it in media. Can you tell us a little bit more about how daytime talk shows as a genre, how they impacted the culture beyond just the world of television?

[Ross Benish]

Well, you would see them all over the place. I'll just use Jerry Springer as an example. He would be making cameos in every movie at the time. Austin Powers sequel, Spy Shagmi. The first scene is Jerry Springer. Like Dr. Evil's on Jerry Springer. And then he beats up, like, some KKK guys and then doesn't it.

[Noel Brown]

Isn't that when it's. There's like a paternal. Like, his son comes out and then they get into a fight and stuff and he's all like, what?

[Alex Williams]

What?

[Noel Brown]

Like, you know, and they're yelling at the.

[Ross Benish]

Any more ridiculous than an actual Jerry Springer episode?

[Noel Brown]

Absolutely.

[Ross Benish]

Like, it was just really something you would see on their show. But, you know, they would be mentioned on teaching Ms. Tingle. Like every. Like so many movies from the late 90s, early 2000s mention them. Jerry Springer had a spring break tour. Springer Break. He had merchandise all over the place. He had a movie made about him. There was a book that had the same name as the movie. He thought about running for Congress, but he didn't because they said that he had too much baggage, which is hilarious.

[Noel Brown]

Didn't he have a background in politics?

[Ross Benish]

He did. He was Cincinnati mayor and city councilman. We can get into that as well. But Springer was just really. He had a mail order VHS too Hot for tv that like, set records.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, gosh, yes. Do I remember that? Of course. And it was. It came out around the same time as those other really trashy, like, girls of Spring break. Yeah.

[Ross Benish]

Girls Gone Wild.

[Noel Brown]

Girls Gone Wild. Thank you.

[Alex Williams]

Yeah.

[Ross Benish]

Girls Got Wild too Out for tv. Definitely.

[Noel Brown]

It was in that same genre. Yes.

[Ross Benish]

You're up after 11 o' clock watching cable. You would see an infomercial for both.

[Noel Brown]

Call a phone number, get it. You know, I knew some. I. I knew some people that got out.

[Alex Williams]

Oh, my gosh.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah.

[Alex Williams]

You mentioned the exact Time of the commercial, were you at my house?

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, it was all of us, man. We were all there.

[Ross Benish]

These were franchises. They weren't just like on TV shows. They were almost like intellectual property that would branch out into its own universe. And then, you know, I think you would eventually see that style of. I don't even call it conversation. It's more like combat or just, you know, being ridiculous. It makes its way into other forms of television, other movies, and then it eventually seeps into politics when the reality starts. Brandon.

[Noel Brown]

Circuses, man. I mean, it's totally like gladiator battles. And that's the lowest form of entertainment, you know, in ancient Rome, for example. But the funny thing is, you know who else likes gladiator battles? Rich people, Smart people. It's not. It doesn't mean you're dumb. If you like trash tv. A lot of people genuinely dig it, and they have PhDs. That's what broad means. It means it reaches, like, everybody.

[Alex Williams]

Yeah. It's a universal appeal because it appeals to things that people love seeing, which is messy trouble at a distance experienced vicariously.

[Noel Brown]

It makes you feel a little bit better about how well you've got your stuff together.

[Alex Williams]

Well, I know who my kid is, so that kind of thing, I think it really speaks to what you're describing as a shock and awe approach to the zeitgeist. Right. It doesn't have to be great. It just needs to be ubiquitous. It just needs to be everywhere. And we'd love to go back to the. The point you noted about interaction with politics, because I would pause it because I read you there, guys.

[Noel Brown]

I would posit we are at peak that thing. This is the culmination.

[Alex Williams]

I would pause it only because I read Ross's book that this is where we start to see a big, weird Muddy Venn diagram of celebrities and politicians becoming increasingly similar. You know, 1990s was a heyday for current US President Donald Trump as a media figure. Right.

[Noel Brown]

We had Jesse the Body Ventura as well.

[Ross Benish]

We started.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, please.

[Ross Benish]

Yeah. Jesse Ventura became governor in 99. Trump actually announced his first presidential run in 1999 on the Larry King Show. A talk show wasn't daytime talk, but, you know, it gives you a sense of what that format was like. So he felt that was a good time to test the water.

[Noel Brown]

Not high, not high journalism. Larry King. I mean, that's. That is entertainment journalism. No shade on Larry King. But the way that show was positioned and it was a meme kind of clip generating show that was all about, like, entertainment, I think.

[Alex Williams]

Oh, Yeah, I don't want to. I'm very against body shaming, but Larry King looked kind of weird. Right.

[Noel Brown]

Odd neck, that film.

[Alex Williams]

Maybe it's the head proportions.

[Ross Benish]

Anyway, I like Larry B. King from the B movie.

[Alex Williams]

Oh, geez, I forgot about that. You're killing it with the references.

[Noel Brown]

Was that 1999 too?

[Ross Benish]

No, that was 2000. I don't know, it was way after seinfeld ended. Probably 2007 or something like that.

[Noel Brown]

And just putting a pin in this, I do want to get into some movies from 1990. Oh yeah. As well. I think I've got a good one that'll be a bridge from this topic. But yeah, please, let's do talk about that political intersection.

[Alex Williams]

Yeah. Is it true that originally in the first run for, I believe the Reform party in 1999, is it true that Donald Trump approached Oprah Winfrey about being his possible vp?

[Ross Benish]

Well, he. I don't know if he really approached her personally, but he said he wanted her to be the vp. Like, I don't know how far that went, but he is on record saying like that was his dream vp.

[Alex Williams]

Okay, so talk about low culture. Instead of approaching the person directly, you just go on interviews.

[Ross Benish]

Yeah. You sit and talk about it a little bit.

[Alex Williams]

Oprah maybe.

[Ross Benish]

Yeah. I did not find any evidence that Oprah ever seriously entertained it.

[Noel Brown]

Yes.

[Alex Williams]

She was like, delete this message. So I love the setup we've got here. Going into the halcyon 1990s movies, you also note that a couple of Social critics called 1999 the best movie year ever. Why is that and is that ironic?

[Ross Benish]

So, you know, just to recap what 1999. So for those who haven't watched those movies for a while, you have, you know, sixth sense.

[Alex Williams]

Matrix, 1999.

[Ross Benish]

Yeah. Fight club. Like you have all Virgin suicides.

[Noel Brown]

Magnolia, talented Mr. Ripley.

[Ross Benish]

Like it just goes on and on. Green Mile, Iron Giant, like so many great movies.

[Noel Brown]

Holland Drive, I mean, just to name a favorite. And rip. David lynch, if I may, really quickly, I just want to drop one on you. Just as a transition from the reality show stuff and the way it just kind of permeated the culture to film the Blair Witch Project.

[Ross Benish]

Oh yeah, definitely.

[Noel Brown]

I mean, because obviously that was the first and probably most iconic. I'm sure there are other examples of a truly handheld, meant to be found footage slash documentary style thing that people, myself included, genuinely believe might be real.

[Ross Benish]

I mean, they made those, they made it seem like those kids were actually murdered. They wouldn't let them appear in public. And like that Whole marketing campaign was so innovative. But you know, what I've read on the 99 movies is that it's a confluence of things in the movie entertainment industry that happened right then that made that production possible. Like you had the indie studios still had free rein to do what they wanted to do and they had theatrical exposure and people were going to the theaters to actually see movies then, not just blockbusters. So you had a lot of like, I don't know what you'd call them, like mid budget movies that could thrive in a way that they can't today. And then you also had, you know, the huge studios making blockbusters that were doing pretty well. You know, Toy Story 2 did very well that year.

[Noel Brown]

And not to mention that studios big and small were willing to take a lot more big swings because DVDs were still hella profitable.

[Ross Benish]

Yeah, you had other revenue streams, right? DVDs are hella profitable. It was also like syndication on TV was still very profitable. So like, even if you could take a big swing, do a risky movie and like, well, HBO and TNT are gonna, you know, air it and pay a big licensing fee because they still get, you know, millions of viewers every night, not like they do tonight.

[Noel Brown]

So all of that is gone. Gone. Like truly DVDs, Blu Rays. Absolutely. Niche for like exclusively for the nerdiest of collectors.

[Ross Benish]

And like the licensing fees from streaming services are not what they were for.

[Alex Williams]

Exactly. Right, exactly.

[Noel Brown]

Look at Spotify rates as a just an example. You know, it's not that low, but it's great.

[Alex Williams]

Even, even streaming services now are encountering an issue. I do want to take a stand for all the fellow physical media nerds in the crowd. You gotta have it if you can, you know, get it on the physical media. Because this era in the 90s, which is still very physical media driven as we've established, it was still part of what we call an ownership society. You bought a thing and then it was yours instead of streaming, which is basically kind of a micro license to yourself to watch something until the big dogs say you can no longer watch.

[Noel Brown]

Even buying something on Amazon is you're still just streaming it off of their servers. And there is some something in the terms, I'm certain that, you know, caveats.

[Ross Benish]

That they can still remove it if you buy it on Amazon. That's happened to people, they could still remove the movie from their library.

[Alex Williams]

And I bet you can guess this bit of trivia, Ross. We talk about it on a couple of different shows in the past. Do you know the first book that was Unceremoniously pulled from Amazon's Kindle service.

[Ross Benish]

Oh, man. No, I do not.

[Alex Williams]

It is 1984 by George.

[Ross Benish]

Oh my gosh.

[Alex Williams]

After people paid for it, it was pulled and with great to do an opprobrium, eventually Amazon put it back.

[Noel Brown]

I think it was an accident, wasn't it? Some sort of glitch.

[Alex Williams]

That's what they said.

[Noel Brown]

Fair enough.

[Ross Benish]

That's pretty on the nose though.

[Alex Williams]

Sure is, yeah. Unfortunate at the very least.

[Ross Benish]

I just want to make one point about the physical media though, because we're talking about 99. That's actually 99 is probably the most pivotal year in transitioning to digital consumption of media because Napster and TiVo both come out that year. Oh, they revolutionize on demand viewing, revolutionize file sharing, you know, like creating your own library rather than what is just coming in at you from like a, you know, big radio station or a big TV network.

[Noel Brown]

So yeah, and I think created some of the problems, problems that led to the lockdown of streaming and all of the sort of like, you know, apification of every network. Because piracy, that's probably one of the most pivotal years in piracy as well.

[Alex Williams]

You wouldn't download a car.

[Noel Brown]

I would if I could.

[Ross Benish]

If I could, we would.

[Alex Williams]

In this economy, Are you kidding?

[Ross Benish]

Yeah. I could be saving $500 a month on that payment.

[Alex Williams]

This episode of Ridiculous History is brought to you by American Public University.

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[Alex Williams]

And this brings us to another point we'd love to explore with you. Ross, after your research on this book and all of the work you have done, how do you think the future will regard the 1990s?

[Ross Benish]

Oh man.

[Alex Williams]

Just because, you know, I don't want to put you on the spot too much, but you're a new father. You gotta be thinking about the future. Your kid is gonna eventually look back at a picture of you from the 90s and go dad. Oh, my God.

[Noel Brown]

Don't think about it too hard, man.

[Ross Benish]

I think the 90s for a while were assessed as like, like, peaceful prosperity times. Like, you know, we. We had a surplus in the economy. We were, you know, the US was involved in skirmishes, certainly, but not nothing to the degree of. Of the wars that they had before or. Or after. I think, like, if we're gonna, like, do, you know, revisionist history down the line, I think the 90s are actually gonna be viewed as more contentious time because of the birth of the Internet and the way it disrupted media and all of the like. Like, we think of the 90s peaceful. But when I go back into this research, I mean, man, when the Internet's coming, there are some heavy fiery debates in Congress about regulating it. I think people forget that Columbine happened in 99 and there's a big push to censor media. And before that, you had all these other tragedies like Oklahoma City. So I think there's a dark undercurrent with the 90s that's being more appreciated now than probably was 10 years ago. And I think, you know, if you look back 20 years from now, the 90s will really look. Seem as like this is what put us on the path to where we are today. A lot of it due to the digitization of communication and media, y'. All.

[Noel Brown]

1999, it's such a bellwether year just for like, all I think of a thing and then I look it up, and then it was in 1999. So David Bowie in a 1999 interview with the BBC with Jeremy Paxman. He's asked about the Internet. Paxman is a little more, like, skeptical about its reach and its power and its potential. And Bowie responds to his kind of, you know, not being so sure that it's as big a deal as everyone, or as Bowie thinks anyway. I don't think that we've even seen the top of the iceberg. I think the potential of what the Internet is gonna do to society, both good and bad, is unimaginable. To which Paxman retorts. The Internet's just a tool. Bowie says, it's an alien life form, and it is going to crush our ideas of what mediums are all about.

[Alex Williams]

And people were. All people were prescient at this time, that's for sure. When you look back at what was on folks minds similar to that Bowie conversation, we also see so much emphasis on the turn of the millennium, right. All through the 1990s in particular, people are excited plus terrified, freaked out.

[Noel Brown]

People were really, genuinely concerned about that.

[Alex Williams]

Of moving into the 21st century. There were even, even conspiracies about the zipper manufacturer Y2K. YKK. YKK. Yeah. Because it was 2K. Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

100. Sorry. Thinking of the Outkast lyric. So YKK on your zipper.

[Alex Williams]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we, we also saw, you know, we saw this in Hip Hop 2 Bone Thugs in Harmony. Back in 1995, they released East 1999 Eternal, which is a banger for anybody who's into older hip hop. Now. What happens in the recovery period with the move into the 21st century? What happened to people when they realized the 90s were over?

[Ross Benish]

Well, might not have realized it until it was too late. And you're way past the. The decade point. You know, I think people realized the party was over until all the revenue had dried up from those, you know, media that they had been supporting for so long.

[Noel Brown]

Are we talking about like, dot com bubble type stuff or like just maybe just those old models just kind of being antiquated?

[Ross Benish]

I was thinking more of the, you know, the old style of communication being antiquated. But yeah, I mean, the dot com bubble, I mean, that's like 2001, 2002. You for sure realize the party's over. Those companies are being liquidated.

[Alex Williams]

Oh, we're gonna get in trouble with our audience, especially my girlfriend, if we don't mention some of the merchandise fad obsessions of the 90s. Beanie Babies. Ross, did you ever have a Beanie Baby? Noel, did you ever have a Beanie Baby?

[Noel Brown]

Never had a Beanie Baby.

[Ross Benish]

I had a few.

[Alex Williams]

You had a few?

[Ross Benish]

Yeah. You know, I didn't have like an attic full of thousands of them like some people did, but I had a handful of them. And actually I still have a few in my house that I let my kids play with because they're absolutely worthless now.

[Alex Williams]

Hey, hold on to them. You know what I mean? Don't let this be Star wars action figures.

[Ross Benish]

Although the tie tag is already ripped off. No going back.

[Alex Williams]

No going back. We've gone too far. We also wanted to shout out, as gamer nerds, some other things in culture that you explore in your book 1999. This was a big year for video games as well, right? Is this the year the first Grand Theft Auto game comes out?

[Ross Benish]

Oh, it's when GTA 2 comes out. So it's the first Grand Theft Auto.

[Noel Brown]

Sequel, but the first more like what we know as modern gta the way it lands.

[Ross Benish]

Well, I would say the modern gta. The first as we know modern GTA would be Grand Theft Auto 3, which was in 2001. That's on PlayStation 2.

[Noel Brown]

That's right.

[Ross Benish]

But I think Grand Theft Auto 2 and they also had a London expansion pack that came out in 99. I found them to be significant. Significant because like you go from Grand Theft Auto just being like a one off to like they're starting to create a franchise on it and it becomes the biggest franchise in. In media really.

[Noel Brown]

I mean C2's overhead view, it's like top down kind of vibe.

[Ross Benish]

Yeah, right.

[Noel Brown]

Like it's definitely not. Yes. 100.

[Ross Benish]

Yeah. But yeah, Tony Hawk Pro Skater. Like tons of Pokemon games that did very well. Like gaming's really in the social consciousness due to attempts to regulate and ban it following columbine.

[Noel Brown]

Are we PS1 at this point?

[Ross Benish]

Yeah, so yeah, we're PS1. N64 1999 PS2 was announced in 99, but it actually doesn't come out for a year later. First Silent Hill Dreamcast comes out in 99 and Dreamcast is actually pretty significant because it's the first system with a built in modem you can do online play on Dreamcast ahead of its time.

[Alex Williams]

Ross, I'm sensing a fellow gamer in the crowd. We also have to mention our pal super producer Max, a bit of an enthusiast of video games himself is blowing us up with some notes here. So Max wants us to note, like you said, null Silent Hill, also the first super smash, bro.

[Noel Brown]

OG super smash.

[Alex Williams]

Thank you for that, Max. And then also just really quickly just.

[Noel Brown]

To cross over back to the thing Max said as well. Another video game was Star Wars Episode the Phantom Menace, which was the top grossing movie of 1999. And not very good one might argue.

[Alex Williams]

We'll see, right? It's up to future historians, but I think we're on the same page, which currently, yeah, Phantom Menace is a really cool name.

[Ross Benish]

You know, the taxation of trade routes, which was a very boring way to open up a prequel trilogy.

[Noel Brown]

Not the blockade.

[Ross Benish]

But I gotta say, this last year that's become really relevant, man.

[Noel Brown]

You're right. Isn't that more the second one where they're really talking about the blockades and the trade routes? Or is that in the.

[Ross Benish]

I think in the first one in the scroll at the opening the movie they started talking about the taxation of trade routes. Of course, yeah. Contribute to the Clone Wars. So it's in the Clone wars is.

[Noel Brown]

The one where I think of the real like heavy politics kind of like you're in the Halls of Parliament kind of moment.

[Alex Williams]

Now I'm just imagining how George Lucas pitched that initially.

[Noel Brown]

I don't think he had to pitch it to anybody, to be honest.

[Ross Benish]

He said, I'm George Lucas, do what I want.

[Alex Williams]

Yeah.

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[Noel Brown]

Sold, George.

[Alex Williams]

What if there's a menace that's a phantom?

[Ross Benish]

We just weren't familiar enough with tariffs at the time to appreciate where it was going.

[Alex Williams]

That's prescient. This is crazy. As we're starting to wrap up here, Ross, what are some of the things that you think more of us in the audience today should realize about the 90s? Sort of speaking to your point about the contention that kind of gets ignored. What's something people Forget about the 1990s?

[Ross Benish]

Yeah, we already discussed the contention with Columbine, the Internet and some terrorist incidents. It wasn't for the people going through it at the time. It wasn't as peaceful and prosperous as we perceive it to be afterwards because we know how it ends.

[Noel Brown]

No further than Woodstock 99, by the way. Not to interrupt, but that is the perfect visual example of all of those tensions meeting up and setting the world on fire.

[Ross Benish]

And then another thing we didn't have time to get too deep into. I just wanna give out some Juggalo love and say that, like, gathering in 1999. Insane composty's always been an acquired taste. But they got, like, closer to Matt culture than they. Than they ever had since they were.

[Noel Brown]

Beloved by the nu metal crowd, for sure.

[Ross Benish]

I mean, they played at Woodstock. They had platinum records. They were wrestling for WCW and WWF before that. So, like, people, like, just bring them up and they joke about them now. But, like, they had that contentious lawsuit with Disney.

[Alex Williams]

Yeah.

[Ross Benish]

Where they were kicked off Disney's record before it even released. And that gave them all this attention and helped them become a hit. And they were like, you know, kind of a big thing for a little bit, which, you know, people forget about now.

[Alex Williams]

Yeah. And they al. They even. They got more press. If we're going under the idea that any press is good press. They got more press when the FBI deemed Juggalos a gang.

[Ross Benish]

Yeah. That revived them, like, in. In the popular press, at least.

[Alex Williams]

And we're seeing a. As we established at the top, we're seeing this revival of the 1990s in general. And we cannot thank you enough for Your time today, Ross. We also can't thank you enough for making this kick ass book so fun, man.

[Noel Brown]

Such a great conversation. Obviously, this is red meat for both of us, so a pleasure to chat.

[American Public University Announcer]

With you about this.

[Ross Benish]

Yeah, this is fun as hell. I'd do it anytime.

[Alex Williams]

Oh, man, you're opening a door.

[Noel Brown]

Step through into the ridiculous. Into our ridiculous world. No, I'm super down. I think there's a million ways we could cut this. And there's other topics. It's funny that it should be 99, though, because technically we made a tacit sort of like, agreement that our cutoff for what would be considered history is 1994. So you have just broadened our window, my friend. Because now. But isn't that the nature of history? The further you move into the future, the more recent history becomes truly meaningful.

[Alex Williams]

When you Start your podcast, 2017. So we could just keep moving it.

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A year, every year.

[Noel Brown]

Move it a year. There you go. That's exactly right.

[Ross Benish]

Okay.

[Noel Brown]

Boy, oh boy, are we living through some now.

[Alex Williams]

I mean, Ross, you're hired.

[Ross Benish]

Yeah.

[Alex Williams]

So please, please, please, please do check out 1999, the year low culture conquered America and kickstarted our bizarre times out now, wherever you find your favorite books, Ross, where can people go to learn more about your work? And also, you don't have to answer this last part. Any teasers on the next project? Project?

[Ross Benish]

So more about my work, just go to my website, RossBenish.com I'm occasionally on Twitter, but a lot of what I do on there is post college football stuff.

[Noel Brown]

So cool. I was gonna say you're more of a reply guy, right?

[Ross Benish]

Yeah, more. More of a consumer.

[Alex Williams]

Okay.

[Ross Benish]

Yeah. Not a ton of tweets. And my next project is really just being with these dogs and kids. I. I don't.

[Noel Brown]

Congratulations.

[Ross Benish]

Thank you. You. Yeah, I got two little ones and then two hounds and I don't know when I'll have time to do another book for quite some time because I do have a day job as well as an analyst, so my book is like my second job.

[Noel Brown]

And amazing.

[Ross Benish]

Probably have to drop that.

[Noel Brown]

We'll have to have you on for some analyst talk as well.

[Alex Williams]

Absolutely. You have accidentally and hopefully consensually become our go to expert on 1990s culture. And we can't wait to have you back on the show, Ross. Thank you so much. Thanks as well to our super producer, Mr. Max Williams. Alex Williams, his biological brother, who composed this track, It's True.

[Noel Brown]

Christopher Osiotis and Eve Jeffcoats here in spirit, Jonathan Strickland the Quizzter, AJ Bahamas.

[Alex Williams]

Jacobs the Puzzler Big Big thanks to Rachel Big Spinach Lance Big thanks to the Rude dudes of Ridiculous Crime. If you like us, you'll love them. And Noel, Just big thanks to the 90s.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, we love the 90s. We'll see you next time folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you.

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