The Terrifying Science of Tiny Subs and D-Day, Part One: The Return of Dr. Rachel "Big Spinach" Lance

Summary

---

Ridiculous History: The Terrifying Science of Tiny Subs and D-Day, Part One

Podcast: Ridiculous History
Hosts: Ben Bowlin & Noel Brown
Guest: Dr. Rachel "Big Spinach" Lance
Date: September 9, 2025

---

Episode Overview

In this episode, Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown welcome back Dr. Rachel “Big Spinach” Lance, expert on underwater blast physics and author of In the Waves and Chamber Divers. Together, they explore the hidden science, experimental risks, and wild personalities behind submarine technology and D-Day. This is part one of a two-part dive into the overlooked, bizarre, and sometimes terrifying story of the scientists who helped make the Normandy landings possible.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Catching Up with Dr. Rachel “Big Spinach” Lance

• Dr. Lance’s Bona Fides: Former professor, now full-time researcher and author. Has left “the lifestyle” (jokes about sock-and-sandal privileges) [04:48].
• Recap of the H.L. Hunley: Confederate Civil War submarine, home-built from boiler parts, famously vanished after a successful mission in 1864. Raised in 2000, crew found dead at stations, mystery persists. [05:33]
  • Quote: “Everyone just kind of slumped over at their battle stations and it was like, we have achieved our goal. Farewell, cruel world.” – Dr. Lance [06:02]
• Clive Cussler’s Role: Author helped bring publicity, resources, and final resolution to Hunley’s discovery story [07:01].

2. From the Hunley to D-Day: Science and Secrecy

• Connection to D-Day: Dr. Lance’s latest book Chamber Divers uncovers the story of British scientists who secretly solved deadly underwater problems to make D-Day feasible. [09:10]
  • Quote: “We always like to say this at parties. We know the world's foremost authority on underwater explosions. It’s so niche and we love it.” – Noel [09:48]
• What Was at Stake: D-Day (June 6, 1944) was the first successfully executed beach invasion of its scale; prior attempts like Gallipoli ended in disaster.
  • Quote: “No military had successfully done that before. Every previous attempt had resulted in absolute massacre on the beaches.” – Dr. Lance [13:45]

3. The Human Side—Normandy’s Local Perspective

• Dr. Lance describes French gratitude and the ongoing emotional weight of D-Day for Normandy residents [10:59].
  • Quote: “Even young people were deeply moved by that event and how much the world really came to France with a specific purpose… They very much have the mentality and attitude that they were rescued.” – Dr. Lance [11:25]
• Tangent on French butter pride and food culture [11:51].

4. Filling the "Time Warp" from Pearl Harbor to D-Day

• Three Years of Science, Not Action: The “gap” between 1941’s US entry and 1944’s D-Day was filled with frantic innovation, logistics, and human trials [13:19].
  • Secret British geneticists worked on carbon dioxide problems for subs and mini-subs, directly impacting invasion technology [13:44].

5. “Mad Science” and Unsung Mavericks

• The British team that tackled submarine and rebreather dangers were “maverick, hard-drinking” scientists working under fire, with little official guidance, risking their health in bombed-out London [22:07, 26:38].
  • “These people were… I don’t want to call them full bananas…” – Dr. Lance [22:07]
• Key Figure—John Burdon Sanderson Haldane (“JBS”): Raised in a home with a decompression chamber; he and peers tested apparatuses on themselves, often without request. [30:26]
  • “They had a gas chamber in their home that his dad would test stuff on his children… Naomi was like in charge of CPR if like a test subject passed out. And she was like 12 at the time.” – Dr. Lance [31:15]
  • The Royal Navy, after a deadly submarine disaster (HMS Thetis, 1939), realized their escape systems were untested and possibly lethal [27:51].
  • Quote: “I did an experiment and I've got the answer.” – Dr. Lance describing Haldane’s approach [32:16]

6. The State of Submarine Tech and Escape Procedures

• Pre-war, submarine escape gear was adapted from mine safety equipment, untested at underwater pressures. Disasters like the sinking of HMS Thetis (103 people trapped, only four survived) exposed fatal gaps [27:51, 29:38].
• Science had to answer basic, sometimes comical, but always deadly serious questions: How much oxygen is too much? Too little? Can people develop gills? [34:17].

7. Submariners' Mentality: A Willingness for One-way Missions

• Even today, submariners accept that if something goes wrong, survival is unlikely [40:04].
  • “If something happens to the sub, they're going down, and they seem to have like a weird peace with it… but as a scientist, let me work on this for you.” – Dr. Lance [40:04]
• The mindset was similar to test pilots or early astronauts—acceptance of risk in service of a larger mission [41:26].
• Memoir recommendation: Freak of a Feather by Kacy Tellison, exploring this attitude in modern military life [42:38].

8. The Realities of Rebreathers and "Steampunk" Tech

• Early submarine rebreathers were corrugated aluminum, rubber hoses, and canvas or leather bags—described as “as steampunk as you can possibly imagine” [45:47].
• Maintaining proper oxygen and “not panicking” critical; hyperventilation could overwhelm the system [47:22].
  • “Breathing is the thing that will kill you first.” – Dr. Lance [48:32]
• Modern systems use plastics, electronics, but the underlying life-and-death problems are still being solved.

9. Declassification and the Hidden History

• The vital research behind D-Day was classified for 70+ years, only released in 2001. Dr. Lance was first to publicly access many records, requiring FOIA requests and international archive trips [23:27, 24:40].
  • “Nobody had ever publicly read them... I was the first one to go through some of this stuff.” – Dr. Lance [24:41]

---

Memorable Quotes

• “Everyone just kind of slumped over at their battle stations and it was like, we have achieved our goal. Farewell, cruel world.” — Dr. Lance, on the H.L. Hunley [06:02]
• “It took those intervening years to figure out how to do that. And so that’s what I wrote about. I wrote about this one group of scientists that was a contributing factor.” — Dr. Lance, on the science behind D-Day [14:20]
• “I do think it takes a really special person…to have bombs falling on you and to say, ‘I will stay because London is where the lab is. And I think this is a big enough problem that I am willing to put my body on the line to test it.’” — Dr. Lance [22:22]
• “They had a gas chamber in their home that his dad would test stuff on his children… Naomi was like in charge of CPR if, like, a test subject passed out. And she was like 12 at the time.” — Dr. Lance [31:15]
• “Breathing is the thing that will kill you first.” — Dr. Lance [48:32]
• “We could save a little bit of money if people had gills.” — Ben [34:18] (humorous moment)

---

Notable Moments & Humor

• French butter pride tangent [11:51]
• Hosts joking about the perils of their upcoming cruise, extracting safety reassurance from Dr. Lance [51:24]
• Multiple diving and submarine puns: “I almost said dive into this…We’re reaching a new level of depth. Terrible puns. Some people would say they’re subpar.” [10:08, 52:45]
• Recurring tongue-in-cheek references to Dr. Lance’s “niche” expertise and ongoing friendship with the show [09:48, throughout]

---

Important Timestamps

• Introduction and guest re-introduction: [04:46]
• Recap of the H.L. Hunley: [05:33]
• Clive Cussler’s involvement: [07:01]
• Dr. Lance’s D-Day research explained: [09:10, 13:44]
• French/Normandy perspective on D-Day: [10:59–12:19]
• Mad science and JBS Haldane: [22:07, 30:26]
• The Thetis disaster & aftermath: [27:51]
• Secrecy/declassification of records: [23:27, 24:40]
• Early rebreather tech described: [45:47]
• Risks of submarining mentality: [40:04, 41:26]
• Memoir/Freak of a Feather plug: [42:38]
• Cliffhanger ending, Point du Hoc tangent: [50:03]

---

Tone & Style

• Conversational, with irreverence and frequent dark humor.
• Deeply researched but lively, featuring in-jokes and recurring themes of friendship, odd expertise, and “ridiculous” aspects of historical progress.
• Respectful of the risks and sacrifices made by those involved, balancing levity with gravitas.

---

To Be Continued…

The episode ends as a cliffhanger, promising a Part Two focused on the “main duo and the love story” at the heart of Dr. Lance’s Chamber Divers, and going even deeper (pun intended) into the personalities and humanity that changed the course of the war.

---

For more:

• Dr. Rachel Lance’s books: In the Waves and Chamber Divers
• Recommended memoir: Freak of a Feather by Kacy Tellison

---

End of Part One recap. See next episode for the continuation of this fascinating and absurd true story behind D-Day’s tiny submarines and the maverick scientists who made history possible.

Transcript

[A]

Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to the show, fellow Ridiculous historians. Thank you as always so much for tuning it. Let's hear it for our super producer, Max Tiny.

[B]

Subs Williams Max the Living Large Language Model Williams.

[A]

Yes, Max. Untold Story of D Day Williams we're.

[C]

Just piling it's called to fit in a mini sub.

[B]

William Wait a minute. Who's that chiming in already?

[A]

Well, the person who said who's that chiming in? That's Noel Brown.

[B]

You're Ben.

[A]

Yep, I am Ben Bullen in this part of the world. And you just heard from a returning expert, a person who continually appears on every single episode we do in the credits. It is none other than Professor Rachel Big Spinach Lance.

[C]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[D]

There's nothing like sinking into luxury. At washablesofas.com, you'll find the Annabe sofa which combines ultimate comfort and design at an affordable price. And get this, it's the only sofa that's fully machine washable from top to bottom. Starting at only $699. The stain resistant performance fabric slipcovers and cloud like frame duvet can go straight into your wash. Perfect for anyone with kids, pets or anyone who loves an easy to clean spotless sofa. With a modular design and changeable slipcovers, you can customize your sofa to fit any space and style. Whether you need a single chair loveseat or a luxuriously large sectional, Annabe has you covered. Visit washablesofas.com to upgrade your home. Right now you can shop up to 60% off store wide with a 30 day money back guarantee. Shop [e-mail] Add a little to your life. Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[A]

This episode of Ridiculous History is brought to you by American Public University.

[B]

American Public University is the number one provider of education to our military and veterans in the country.

[A]

They offer something truly unique. Special rates and grants for the entire family, making education affordable not just for those who serve, but also for their loved ones.

[B]

If you have a military or veteran family member and are looking for affordable, high quality education, APU is the place for you.

[A]

So visit APU Apus Edumilitary to learn more today.

[B]

That's APU Apus Edumilitary is moderate to.

[D]

Severe plaque psoriasis keeping you from being you. Get back to clearer skin with Bimzelix Bimakizumab bkzx, a prescription medicine taken by injection used to treat moderate to severe Plaque psoriasis in adults who are candidates for systemic therapy or phototherapy. Bimzelix can deliver transformative relief. Most people got 100% clear skin. In combined clinical studies. Nearly 9 in 10 people saw 90% clearer skin. And more than 6 in 10 saw 100% clearer skin at 16 weeks. Serious side effects like suicidal thoughts and behavior, infections and lowered ability to fight them. Liver problems and inflammatory bowel disease have occurred. Tell your doctor if these happen or worsen or fevers, chills, muscle aches or cough occur or you've had a vaccine or plan to before starting. Get checked for infections, tuberculosis and liver problems. Start to get yourself back. Ask your dermatologist about Bimzelics. Learn [e-mail] or call 1-833-UCB now one picture this.

[C]

You're halfway through a DIY car fix.

[B]

Tools scattered everywhere, and boom.

[A]

You realize you're missing a part.

[C]

It's okay because, you know, whatever it is, it's on ebay.

[B]

They've got everything. Brakes, headlights, cold air intakes.

[A]

Whatever you need.

[B]

And it's guaranteed to fit. Which means no more crossing your fingers.

[A]

And hoping you ordered the right thing.

[C]

All the parts you need at prices you'll love. Guaranteed to fit every time. Ebay. Things people love.

[A]

Dr. Lance, thank you for coming back to the show.

[C]

Ah, thank you. Yeah. It is just Dr. Lance, though I'm no longer a professor. I have left that lifestyle behind. I have stopped wearing socks for my sandals. Yeah, it's a big transition.

[B]

Does that happen on day one? Okay, got it.

[C]

You have to turn them in when you leave. Yeah, right.

[B]

Like day of. Right.

[C]

Along with your elbow patches, socks in your work badge.

[A]

Yeah. And sock security escorts people out now. Yeah. Rachel, in our previous exploration, the thing that inspired us to brag about your bona fides and accolades for lo these several years, we talked about the story of the Hunley. Could you give us a brief recap on that?

[C]

Oh, I don't know if I can be brief. I'll try. All right, so. February 17, 1864. The Civil War in America is raging from full force. One of the major sources of the bulk of the conflict is Charleston, South Carolina. It's being bombed and blockaded on a constant basis because that's where the war started. So naturally, what do the Confederates decide to do but use a bunch of recycled steam boiler parts to handcraft a submarine? As we all would. This crew of eight personnel take their hand cranked homemade submarine out at around 8pm that night and they use it to press a 200 pound black powder bomb against the side of one of the Union ships blockading their city. Now that's a bomb about the size of a beer keg. The bomb does successfully go off, but then the crew and their vessel disappear. Until the modern era. So modern explorers found it first in 1970, then again in 1995. It was brought up in 2000. And once it was raised, the mystery of why it disappeared in 1864, after apparently being victorious and sinking this Union ship, only deepened. Everyone was in the sub, nobody was trying to get out. The hatches were all locked, they didn't try to pump out any water. Everyone just kind of slumped over at their battle stations and it was like, we have achieved our goal. Farewell, cruel world.

[B]

And what, somehow Clive Cussler is involved in this whole thing? The best selling author?

[C]

Yeah. So he's since passed away. But yes, in the 90s he was very active in funding a lot of exploratory groups looking for ships. And there was another explorer named Lee Spence who had written a bunch of letters saying he discovered this disappeared Hunley in 1970. And Kussler's team took that information. As far as I can track, that's what really happened. He took that information and they went out with their much greater resources and their much greater clout, which Does Matter in 1995. And they did something really smart. They announced that they found it, which since the name Clive Cussler is attached, gets real big press and real big pressure. And they refused to tell anyone where until everyone had signed all the contracts agreeing what would happen to it so that everybody was motivated to stop fighting and figure it out so they could get this artifact back.

[A]

And for anyone who wants to know more about this, turns out there's an entire book which inspired our friendship. It is called in the My Quest to Solve the Mystery of a Civil War Submarine. By None Other than you.

[C]

Yeah, our undying friendship, for sure.

[A]

We style like such families, unlike the.

[C]

Crew of the Hunley. Am I right? Oh, sorry, no, it's. You know, they would have. It was 150 years ago. We can make dark jokes about it for sure.

[B]

And ganny, if I could, could I just rattle off some Clive Cussler novel names? We've got Plague Ship, we've got the Saboteurs, we've got the Romanov Ransom, Polar Shift, the Jungle, the Corsican Shadow, Fire Ice, Devil's Gate, and the Navigator. Sorry, these are just very like.

[A]

I like the bookend with the plague ship and navigator.

[B]

Yeah, plague ship. Was my favorite. It's very metal.

[C]

I will say, like, Plagueship is a better title than in the Waves. I'm sorry, it is. Kidding. Yeah.

[B]

Does have a certain ring to it.

[C]

Well, in that case, I gotta give credit.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. In that case, then, it sounds like it's time to write a third book, since you definitely haven't been busy writing a second book not too long ago called Chamber the Untold Story of the D Day Scientist who Changed Special Operations Forever. This is something we've read. Again, fans of yours and our. This is the brag. We were talking about this off air, Noel. Remember, we always like to say this at parties. We know the world's foremost authority on underwater explosions.

[B]

It's so niche and we love it. I love it.

[C]

I do a lot of physics in my free time. Yeah. Before we were recording, we were talking about what your hobby would be if the world suddenly, like, everyone disappeared. I think underwater blast physics might be it. Like that might. So perfect.

[B]

Yeah, perfect.

[A]

We're reaching out to a lot of people with that one. What more universal concept. So maybe let's. Oh, I almost said dive into this.

[B]

Sorry.

[A]

Keep it. Okay. All right, all right, we'll keep it. We'll keep it for the doctor. So tell us a little bit, if you can, about D Day, which was not too long ago. I think a lot of people in the United States have seen depictions of.

[B]

It famously saving Private Rock.

[C]

Heard of it once or twice.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

So when people are. I don't know. I was thinking about this, Noel and Rachel, off air, I was thinking, how do people who live in Normandy now feel about D Day? That's a good question to start with. Right.

[C]

Fun fact. I recently had the opportunity to go to an underwater physiology conference, not in Normandy, but close by in Brest. And I asked many French people this question. So, yes, they're very honored by the actions taken by the other allies at D Day. Like, they. They take that anniversary seriously and they. Even young people were deeply moved by that event and how much the world really came to France with a specific purpose. It was broader than France alone, of course. Like World War II is bigger than France alone. But they. They very much have the mentality and attitude that they were rescued and they appreciate that and the amount of effort and blood that went into it.

[B]

And now Normandy, famously known for their high quality butter that they produce.

[C]

Yes, they're very sassy about their butter.

[B]

It's really good. Really good.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[C]

If you try and buy unsalted butter, you get kicked out.

[B]

So, no, I mean, the first time I had French butter, it was like, this is a whole nother universe. Like, this is nothing like the butter we get over here.

[C]

Yeah, they're not. They're not proud of nothing. Like, I'll say that. It's good. It's good. They've got.

[A]

They've got credit where do.

[C]

Exactly. They've got the good stuff.

[A]

They've got it going on.

[C]

So. Yeah. D Day, June 6, 1944. As an American, I'd found, even as someone who has always been invested in history, specifically World War II history. Grew up watching tons of documentaries with my dad, my grandpa's. Both fought in it. And so I had never processed it that way. But one day I just had this weird realization that we as Americans think of World War II as Pearl Harbor, December 7, 1941. And then a time warp occurs, and it's June 6, 1944, and we're storming the beaches of Normandy.

[B]

Sometimes history does be like that.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Sometimes history is done linear, and people.

[A]

Just explain it by. As though they're studio execs pitching a film, right? A to B to Zed.

[C]

This miracle time warp occurs for Americans at least. And that's the way we talk about World War II. And I started picking away at it, and I was like, why was there a delay? And as I wrote in the Waves, my first book, there was one part in there that actually you can see as the carryover link that became chamber divers. So there's one part in there where in 1940, this group of British scientists is doing this experiment on themselves that had relevance, totally by coincidence, to the H.L. henley from the Civil War. So I used that experiment in the waves, and I didn't really, at that time, connect it, but because I didn't know yet. I honestly didn't know. One day I was sitting there thinking about World War II as one does, and thinking about carbon dioxide as one does, and I realized, like, wait a minute, these guys were in London in 1940 doing this weird little test on themselves with carbon dioxide. And I was like, they were being bombed then. Why did they care about carbon dioxide when bombs are literally falling on you? And I started digging, and that's the story that ended up leading to chamber divers. Because it turned out that one little paper was really all that they'd been allowed to publish from this series of experiments where the ultimate goal was the beaches of Normandy. So circling back, that's three and a half years. Or I might have done that math wrong. Don't email me between December 1941, June 1944. What was happening in that time period was science, because the beach landing, at least on the scale that took place at Normandy, had never happened successfully. So we think of it, we think of D Day and we think of it from the modern perspective as like this huge event, this major storming and people died of course, and I will never make light of that, but like overall it was a success. The allies took the beaches. We don't realize fully how world shaking that is because no military had successfully done that before. Every previous attempt had resulted in absolute massacre on the beaches. So it took those intervening years to figure out how to do that. And so that's what I wrote about. I wrote about this one group of scientists that was a contributing factor. Obviously no one group did it all by themselves. It was massive. But what this group did was a part of it.

[D]

Life's messy. We're talking spills, stains, pets and kids. But with Anabe, you never have to stress about messes again. At washablesofas.com, discover annabe sofas, the only fully machine washable sofas inside and out, starting at just $699. Made with liquid and stain resistant fabrics. That means fewer stains and more peace of mind. Designed for real life, Our sofas feature changeable fabric covers, allowing you to refresh your style anytime. Need flexibility? Our modular design lets you rearrange your sofa effortlessly. Perfect for cozy apartments or spacious homes. Plus, they're earth friendly and built to last. That's why over 200,000 happy customers have made the switch. Upgrade your space today. Visit washablesofas.com now and bring home a sofa made for life. That's washablesofas.com offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[A]

Picture this. You're in a garage, hands covered in grease, just finished tuning up your engine with a part you found on ebay. And you realize, you know what? I could also use new brakes. So where do you go next? Back to ebay. You can find anything there. It's unreal. Wipers, headlights, even cold air intakes. It's all there. And you've got ebay. Guaranteed fit. You order a part and if it doesn't fit, send it back. Simple as that. Look, DIY fixes can be major. Doesn't matter if it's just maintenance or a major mod, you got it. Especially when things are guaranteed to fit. So when you dive into your next car project, start with ebay. All the parts you need at prices you'll love. Guaranteed to fit every time. Ebay Things people love Folks Balancing work, family and education is not easy. However, American Public University makes it possible.

[B]

With online courses, monthly start dates, and flexible schedules. APU is designed for busy professionals who need education that fits their lives.

[A]

And affordability matters as well. APU offers the opportunity grant, giving students 10% off undergraduate and master's level tuition, helping you reach your goals without breaking the bank.

[B]

Plus, they provide career services and 24. 7 mental health support at no extra cost. Visit APU apus.edu to learn more.

[A]

That's APU. APUS edu is moderate to severe plaque.

[D]

Psoriasis, keeping you covered up and feeling less confident. Clearer skin with Bimzelics can give you a chance to say I'm back. Bimzelix bimakizumab bkzx is a prescription medication taken by injection used to treat moderate to severe plaque psoriasis in adults who are candidates for systemic therapy or phototherapy. Bimzelix can deliver transformative relief Most people got 100% clear skin in combined clinical studies, nearly 9 in 10 people saw 90% clearer skin and more than 6 in 10 saw 100% clear skin at 316 weeks. Start getting back to liking your reflection, say so long to long sleeves. Love your skin again with Bimzelix only Bemzelix targets and blocks IL17A F to calm inflammation. Serious side effects like suicidal thoughts and behavior, infections and lowered ability to fight them. Liver problems and inflammatory bowel disease have occurred. Tell your doctor if these happen or worsen or fevers, chills, muscle aches or cough occur or you've had a vaccine or plan to before starting, get checked for infections, tuberculosis and liver problems. Get back to clearer skin. Ask your dermatologist about Bimzelix, the first approved treatment of its kind. Learn [e-mail] or call 1-833-UCB- Now-1.

[C]

It.

[A]

Makes perfect sense, and I love the point we're bringing up here at the at the time, the invasion that we call D Day today in the west was the largest of its sort in history and also the one successful one. I mean, we're talking hundreds of thousands of troops, tens of thousands of vehicles, a bunch of equipment.

[C]

Oh my gosh.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

A real cannon fodder type situation.

[C]

Yeah, the engine problem of hey, get a tank from a ship to the land. That alone, that's a challenge. Now you had people shooting at you. It's a bigger challenge. Right? And they did it. But they did it through this crazy amount of innovation. One of the previous examples, Winston Churchill during World War I actually led an attempted beach landing at Gallipoli and they got stuck on the beach for a year and they eventually gave up and left after.

[B]

That doesn't sound so bad.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

A year of beach time.

[A]

Did they have to stay the whole year or was the weather just nice?

[C]

I mean, they were just there for a year with no housing being shot at.

[A]

It was no supply chain logistics.

[C]

Exactly. It was a terrible military failure. So Churchill in particular was deeply aware of how big of a problem this was.

[A]

So what we see then, it's a point we continually return to, is that history is often taught to us as a series of one off, discrete events at best. Maybe a linear pop, pop, pop, like the axe in a film. But the fascinating thing is every day is still occurring between those big moments. And as you said, there's so much science involved. There's also a lot of humanity involved, which we might. We have to get to some of these big characters in our second episode. Yeah, but. Yeah. Is it, Is it fair to say, Rachel, that there was a little bit of mad science involved?

[C]

I think that's an understatement. I think these people were. I don't want to call them. Yeah, I don't want to call them full Benin is okay.

[A]

But they were like a half order of bananas.

[B]

They were a little.

[A]

They were half bananas.

[C]

They were maybe like one banana. What they were doing, I do think it takes. And this was a group. I do think it takes a really special person to be in your home to have food shortages, to have rationing, to have bombs falling on you and to say, I will stay because London is where the lab is. And I think this is a big enough problem that I am willing to put my body on the line to test it. And that's exactly what this group of scientists did. And they were all actually geneticists. And like, if you want to save that for the second part, we can get to that. But that's what I think is really important, is these people were scientists. One of them, this was a huge area of background for him. But the rest were kind of learning it on the fly because they collectively realized that the allied militaries knew nothing. They knew nothing. And so the fact that they had one expert all of a sudden made this genetics lab in London the global epicenter for underwater research. Mini subs diving, all of it that they would need in order to plan these landings.

[A]

Now, also, this story was previous to your publication of Chamber Divers this story was classified, right?

[C]

It was classified for minimum 70 years. So that was the UK records. Now in that time, there is some nefariousness. Some of the government officials involved like stole some of the work from these scientists. And so there was like added confusion that I started digging out as I started going through the original records. Now everyone's dead, but like, you know, I have. I now have vengeance against that. I need against these people who died, like when I was in middle school. But there was nefarious happening in that time period. This minimum of 70 to 80 years of classification was applied to all the work. The UK did a bulk declassification of a lot of D Day records and World War II records in about 2001. These records started being declassified in about 2001. And a lot of the American records I had to submit requests to for to get them declassified.

[A]

FOIA requests.

[C]

FOIA requests, yeah. So those were readily accepted. I'm not going to pretend it was a huge battle. But what it does show is that nobody had ever publicly read them. So the fact that I had to do that, they had not already been cleared for release shows that I was the first one to go through some of this stuff.

[B]

Nice.

[C]

Yeah, that was an adventure. And that's why this book also took a long time. Like my first book came out April 2020. There were pandemic issues with researching this. Like, I started researching this and then the pandemic hit and it became an infinitely longer task that I couldn't really even finish until travel started clearing up. Because these records were in multiple archives throughout the world and it was just this whole big thing. But yeah, this one came out last year, April 2024. I had some personal issues that were happening around there, which is why it took me a while to reach out to you guys. I'm so sorry. Please do not take it as a reflection of our.

[B]

Are you kidding?

[C]

Undying friendship. For sure.

[A]

You're a wizard. A wizard is never late. Always right on time.

[C]

I went to a personal cave, but as I crawled myself out, I was like, oh, Ben, enough.

[B]

We're here. We've been waiting. We've been mentioning you every episode these many years. So we're putting out the vibes into the. You mentioned on the jacket of your book this concept of, let's see you use the term maverick, hard drinking submarine researchers. Can we unpack that just a little bit before we get into the main kind of duo and the love story that unfolds?

[C]

Sure.

[B]

It's a wild story.

[C]

All Right. Where do you want to start? You want to start with Maverick?

[B]

Yeah, Maverick submarine researchers.

[A]

The bombs have not maybe yet quite fallen on London, but there is an ill wind in the air.

[C]

War is coming.

[A]

Yeah, people got the bad vibe, right? So now we have, as you said, we've got a bunch of boffins. Right. And what are our boffins to do?

[C]

What are our boffins to do? Yeah, I'm sorry, I've not heard that word before.

[A]

Well, I guess our eggheads are fellow nerds.

[C]

No, I like it. Let's stick with it. I love learning a new word. Okay, so war is coming. There's this character Hitler who's over on the mainland and he's expectorating some very terrible things. And one of the things that he's just like spitting on and out about is that he wants to reclaim previous parts of the German Empire, the Holy Roman Empire, whatever terminology is being used for the fluctuations of territories throughout Europe. So anyway, he's being very vocal. He's planning to take over some stuff and the European countries around him are not thinking, that's so nice. They're like, no, we're not going to agree to that.

[B]

I don't know, this guy seems like a totally good dude. I'm not sure he's not the best Hitler guy.

[C]

I have notes. But anyway, so by about 1938, 1939, it's very clear that he cannot be mollified through diplomacy. And so England in particular, who had been Germany's opponent during World War I, knows that war is coming for them. So one of the things that they very smartly do as an island nation is working on their submarines and their ships and their ability to have naval warfare. So June 1, 1939, they have this submarine called the HMS Thedas. And this is the bit that was in the waves that kind of brought me over. HMS Thetis sinks. It's in very shallow water. Literally for the first few hours, the stern of this submarine is sticking up out of the water. They can see it, they can touch it, they can send rafts to it, but they can't get out the 103 people crammed inside. Eventually it does kind of reshift. The stern sinks below, but even then it's in really shallow water. The people inside have underwater breathing apparatuses. They should be able to get out. Only four make it. And those four are. The best word I can come up with is bedraggled. Like they are in rough shape. They are plucked off the surface of the ocean. One of Them is actually the captain of the submarine, which is contrary to a lot of practice about the captain going last. But what had happened was the crew inside was really scared. And so he went early to be like, I will do this. I will show you it's safe. So because of that, we know a little bit about what's happening inside the submarine. We. We know a little bit about the air that they were breathing, how these underwater breathing apparatuses work. And to shorten a lot of bureaucracy, basically the Royal Navy realizes that they've built submarines and they've built escape apparatuses, and they haven't tested them at all in that application. So they've got all these things. This is their plan A, and it is their only plan for getting out of submarines. And they realize like, oh, damn. We don't actually know if this will work or if it will actually kill you as you try to use it.

[A]

Oh. Because. Okay, I see. It's a fatal version of lead a horse to water, kind of, because you can get the sub close to the shore, but if you can't unpack the sub.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

It's like they've led the horse the water, but they didn't check to make sure the water wasn't poisoned first. So they might have just poisoned all their horses. Anyway, this one guy living in London, he grew up in diving. His name is John Burden Sanderson Helping. He went by jbs, so his first three initials. He grew up in diving because his dad is this like. Or his dad was this world famous physiology diving researcher. His dad was the one that solved how to come up slowly enough so that you didn't get the bends. Decompression sickness. So his dad was really famous, but his dad just died the year before. So now the Royal Navy has nobody and they kind of start scrambling about. So this guy, jbs, he'd grown up in this environment. They had a gas chamber in their home that his dad would test stuff on his children, including JBS and JBS's sister Naomi. And the kids were like part of the experiments. They were helping run the pyramids. Naomi was like in charge of cpr if, like a test subject passed out. Yeah. And she was like 12 at the time. Right. So they, they know this because it's been part of their upbringing. So JBS really steps up. He gets a butt of his bunch of his buddies. JBS has been through two wars before. He's been through World War I, he's volunteered in the Spanish Civil War, and he gets a bunch of his veteran buddies and they're like, we're gonna show you what happens when you try to use these, because we're going to test it on ourselves in a safe, controlled environment. So that's where I think the maverick part really comes in, is at the beginning there was nobody even really asking these people for help. They just kind of were like, I did an experiment and I've got the answer.

[B]

And there's this desperate times, I guess.

[C]

But, I mean, he was right. Like, he was a great scientist. He was a professor at University College London, and that's where he ran into genetics lab. And that's what he'd been studying. But because of his upbringing, he knew how to do dive research.

[B]

Can you say University College London has always struck me as a little redundant.

[C]

I'm just gonna put that out there. This isn't it. But, like, so him and his buddies do this experiment, they get these results and there's this dramatic scene where JVS is literally on the stand during the Royal Navy inquiry to figure out who to blame for this accident. And he got out of the chamber at something like 3 or 4am that day. And they're like, well, how much would we need to manage the carbon dioxide in the sub in order for people to survive? And he does the math on the stand, being like, this might take me a few extra minutes. I still have a migraine from these experiments. Like, hold tight. So I'm not good at doing math while people are watching me do the math. Like, I need to be kind of like in my office office with a blanket as, like a little hoodie and scribbling away. And then I.

[A]

You're all private mathematicians.

[C]

Yeah, and then I'm great at it. I will say I'm crackerjack at private math, but, like, in a court scene, real action, supervised math seems harder. So from that moment on, he and his lab do become the go to for underwater physiology questions. But what's even wilder is the allies in general know so little about surviving underwater that they don't even really know what to ask them to study yet. And so, yeah, they kind of like, he works with them. They make a little shopping list of questions. And if you read this list, it's wild because it is. It is everything. It is like, how much oxygen is too much oxygen? How much oxygen is not enough oxygen?

[A]

Do people have gills? Yeah, because we could save a little bit of money.

[C]

What about carbon dioxide? It is literally like everything that you need to survive as a human or need to avoid. To avoid death. And they're Just like, can you work on it?

[A]

So did they ask questions about not death, but depth?

[C]

They did. So that was on their list. They still had questions about coming up from depth. So you got to realize too at this point, diving, diving is still hard hat stuff. So we're talking Cuba Gooding Jr. Men of honor. You need a giant ship. That is what diving is as of 1938.

[B]

We're talking like diving bell situations, like the giant helmets, all of that.

[C]

Yeah, diving bell is like a thing that the people go in so you're kind of inside of it. But yeah, that or a giant helmet. You're walking on the bottom. But either way, we now have this island country probably going to war with mainland Europe. Got people in submarines. There's not a good way to have this surface applied setup. And they also realize like in the submarines themselves, they don't really know how to keep people alive in them. They've kind of just been building them and hoping for the best. Like don't run the diesel engine while you're underwater. That's about it in terms of, of how to keep people alive in a submarine at that time.

[D]

Let's be real. Life happens. Kids spill, pets shed and accidents are inevitable. Find a sofa that can keep [e-mail] Starting at just $699, our sofas are fully machine washable inside and out. So you can say goodbye to stains and hello to worry free living. Made with liquid and stain resistant fabrics, they're kid proof, pet friendly and built for everyday life. Plus, changeable fabric covers let you refresh your sofa whenever you want. Need flexibility. Our modular design lets you rearrange your sofa anytime to fit your space, whether it's a growing family room or a cozy apartment. Plus, they're earth friendly and transportation trusted by over 200,000 happy customers. It's time to upgrade to a stress free, mess proof sofa. Visit washablesofas.com today and save. That's washablesofas.com offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[B]

Picture this. You're halfway through a DIY car fix, tools scattered everywhere and boom. You realize you're missing a part.

[A]

It's okay because you know whatever it is, it's on ebay.

[B]

They've got everything. Brakes, headlights, cold air intakes, whatever you need.

[A]

And it's guaranteed to fit. Which means no more crossing your fingers and hoping you ordered the right thing.

[B]

All the parts you need at prices you'll love.

[A]

Guaranteed to fit every time.

[B]

Ebay Things people love this episode of.

[A]

Ridiculous history is brought to you by American Public University.

[B]

American Public University is the number one provider of education to our military and veterans in the country.

[A]

They offer something truly unique special rates and grants for the entire family, making education affordable not just for those who serve, but also for their loved ones.

[B]

If you have a military or veteran family member and are looking for affordable, high quality education, APU is the place for you.

[A]

So visit APU APUS eDumilitary to learn more today.

[B]

That's APU APUS.

[D]

Edu military is moderate to severe plaque psoriasis keeping you covered up and feeling less confident. Clearer skin with Bimzelix can give you a chance to say I'm back. Bimzelix Bimicizumab is a prescription medication taken by injection used to treat moderate to severe plaque psoriasis in adults who are candidates for systemic therapy or phototherapy. Bimzelix can deliver deliver transformative relief Most people got 100% clear skin in combined clinical studies. Nearly 9 in 10 people saw 90% clearer skin and more than 6 in 10 saw 100% clear skin at 16 weeks. Start getting back to liking your reflection, say so long to long sleeves. Love your skin again with Bimzelics only Bimzelics targets and blocks IOL17A F to calm inflammation. Serious side effects like suicidal thoughts and behavior, infections and lowered ability to fight them. Liver problems and inflammatory bowel disease have occurred. Tell your doctor if these happen or worsen or fevers, chills, muscle aches or cough occur or you've had a vaccine or plan to before starting. Get checked for infections, tuberculosis and liver problems. Get back to clearer skin. Ask your dermatologist about Bimzelix, the first approved treatment of its kind. Learn [e-mail] or call 1-833-UCB now one.

[A]

Can we ask real quick Rachel, at this point, okay, we've figured out part of the technology. We haven't figured out how to keep people reliably alive with this technology. What was the reputation of the service members who might volunteer to hop on a sub if they were figuring this out? I mean, what were the fatality rates? This feels very much like a risky one way party.

[C]

Yeah. So even now if you talk to submariners, the attitude amongst that community is very much that if something happens to the sub, they're going down and they seem to have like a weird peace with it. Which I understand from a personal survival standpoint that's probably what you gotta do in order to go to work in the Morning. So I fully support that. But as a scientist, I'm like, let me work on this for you. Let me be back here working on that. But yeah, at the same time, World War I has just happened. There are all these German wolf packs. The wolf packs have had crazy success, but we've seen the sinkings occur in World War I. And so World War II, the submariners, at least as far as I can tell, it is very much their mentality that they go out there assuming there's a good chance this is a one way trip, accepting that fate and doing what they can for their country anyway, which is pretty bleak. And I think we owe them better. Personally.

[A]

I think, yeah, agreed with that. It calls to mind the later stories about helicopter pilots in Southeast Asian conflicts in the 70s who just made their peace.

[B]

I mean, I can't help but see parallels with like early space travel. Like it just in terms of the level of unknown, the level of risk, the level of like, is this technology good enough?

[C]

Yeah. One of the most common questions I get about the H.L. hunley, that's our Civil War sub, is do you think they knew they were gonna die? And I typically answer that yes, but not necessarily in the subject. So I think that when you have a time of war, you have people who are exposed to so much that they become willing to do whatever they can to help end it and to help defend their comrades in arms. And I think those become two really major goals. And with that becomes a level of acceptance about the risk because there's so much that they can't control. I have a buddy, he's become a buddy through writing. So if you don't mind, can I give his book a shout? He doesn't really care.

[A]

Yeah, please do. We'd also like to know his Social Security number, blood type, list of childhood fees.

[B]

At the very least, his social media would be acceptable.

[C]

I don't know his handles offhand, but his name is Casey Olaf Tellison. That's K A C Y. And he wrote just an absolutely stunning book called Freak of a Feather. And that's his memoir as an active duty service member in Iraq and Afghanistan. And he talks about the same thing, so that's why I quote him frequently. He has a particular passage in there where he talks about that same mentality of being like, I can't control if I'll die today. I'm just gonna go out and do what I can. So is essentially what it came down.

[B]

To before the grace of God and all of that.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Freaks Of a Feather.

[B]

That's a great title. Instantly arresting. I must know more doing it.

[A]

And this I think speaks to the commonality, the human thread that we see throughout so much of human conflict. Right. There are people who decide what I'm going to do this morning may likely be a one way trip, but I have to do it. And then I'm glad we spent some time on the perspective of these early submariners who know the technology isn't there. Can you imagine the meeting where you meet your CO and they start telling you the idea of a submarine and then you say. Yeah, so also. Yeah, quick question here in the back. First day, how do we get out?

[C]

Yeah, fine.

[B]

It's fine.

[C]

Yeah. But after the time Thetis. So that was June 1938. So obviously war comes for England faster than it does for America. By 1940 they're in the Blitz. Right. So they very quickly start planning for that. Exactly. Because the Thetis event really shook the nation, you know, when they brought the. They recovered the submarine, they brought the bodies out and they put big sheets up to try to block it. But like, still everybody there knew it was happening. And so there are oral histories of like people from that coastal town just being like, we just sat there and watched. We couldn't see everything, but we felt like someone needed to observe this moment. Yeah, it really shook the maritime community in the Royal Navy. And so they immediately start building submarine escape practice towers and they start working with these breathing apparatuses and doing tests on these breathing apparatuses, which were a great concept, but essentially had just been taken from mining, like coal mining, copper mining. In the air. You have a lot fewer problems to deal with. So they had never been fully tested at depth underwater. And it was that added pressure that it turned out was screwing everybody up.

[A]

We were seeing breathing apparatuses that hopefully, Noel, I'm not the only person in the crowd tonight who's picturing something vaguely canvas or steampunky. Can you tell us a little bit about what these breathing apparatuses looked like?

[B]

I'm also picturing Frank Booth from Blue Velvet, just kind of like with like humping desperately from a maybe, maybe like.

[C]

A go as steampunk as you can possibly imagine. So I guess this is like before widespread plastic. Right. So the containers are made out of aluminum, they're painted black, they're like corrugated. So it's corrugated metal containers. They've got corrugated rubber hoses, they've got different types of breathing bags. So this is before scuba. Jacques Cousteau was working in Nazi occupied France. So the way these different groups went about it were all. They all iterated toward the same end result, but they were all different. So they have these breathing bags. So you breathe into the bag and then it would get cycled through this canister, it would add more oxygen, and then you would breathe that kind of refreshed air back in. So when you're breathing, you need oxygen at the right level and you need to get rid of carbon dioxide. So normally we do that by just exchanging air with the world around us. The trees handle the carbon dioxide part.

[A]

Thank you, trees.

[C]

Yeah, thank you, trees. Then there's just enough air that it's not really a problem that needs active processing. But when you get into smaller and smaller spaces, that's why you don't want to breathe out of a plastic bag. You're going to run down the oxygen, you're going to produce more carbon dioxide. There's all of a sudden no exchange happening. So they were essentially breathing into canvas or leather bags, but they were processing it with these canisters that took out the carbon dioxide and oxygen bottles that added more oxygen in.

[A]

Okay. And it sounds like you have to have a specific, let's call it a don't panic level of breathing frequency. Right. If you breathe too fast, if you're huffing in a hurry, would that mess up the apparatus?

[C]

Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Great question, Ben. Get out of my brain. Yeah. So we've literally been studying this concept since. So that was a big part of my job as a scientist is still. And we've made advances. I don't want to say that we haven't, but there have been huge leaps and bounds. But these devices still exist. So if you look at, if you look at rebreathers, if you Google the word rebreathers, you'll see the modern version. So they're made with more modern materials. You're going to deal with anodized metals and you're going to deal with plastics. And you've got like plastic lined woven fabrics and stuff for the bags. Plastic made those a lot easier. They're now controlled with computers. But you still run into the same problems that the human body is hard to modify. And it has very strict rules about breathing. Breathing is the thing that will kill you first. In any scenario. You get three minutes without oxygen, three days without water, and three weeks without food. So you gotta pay attention to the breathing far and away. Anytime you're going into an environment where we don't naturally live as like caveman style, human beings surviving underwater is A really big one. So as soon as they start discovering that and they realize how little they know, and they realize, like, this war is coming, mainland Europe, they're going to have to develop their underwater technology a lot more. So D Day becomes the ultimate target. It starts with the thetis. It starts with these breathing apparatuses. They progress and accumulate from there. They start building smaller submarines. Like I said, that's the submarine version of putting your head in a plastic bag. So that takes work. They need to be able to swim underwater on purpose. That takes work. And yeah, if you start breathing too fast, you can. What's called over breathing. Your system, like, you start to hyperventilate and the passageways may not be big enough and it may not be scrubbing that carbon dioxide at enough rate. And all of that stuff requires testing so that it happens first in a lab where we can resuscitate people as opposed to while they're being shot at on a Nazi occupied beach.

[A]

This is the perfect segue to episode two, Cliffhanger. Yeah, cliffhanger.

[B]

Love a cliffhanger.

[C]

Cliffhanger. Like Point Du Hoc. Sorry, niche reference. So many.

[B]

Oh, my God, Please explain. Please explain.

[C]

Quant du Hoc is one of the sites at the beaches of Normandy and it's this straight up vertical cliff. And there was a big German armament at the top. And so some of the U.S. army Rangers were assigned the task of scaling this vertical cliff as part of the early assaults on D Day. So you can still go see it. You can stand at the top. You can't really go to the base as a public, member of the public, but like, it is an impressive feat. And yes, so they developed a lot of like grappling hook and rock climbing stuff to do that particular thing and take out that battery.

[A]

It's fascinating and in no small part heartbreaking how much technological innovation comes from conflict, comes from war, and how much amazing science also departs there. Now, Rachel, as we reach the end of the the first part of our two part series on chamber divers and D Day, we do have to confess to you that we have a selfish ulterior motive. Noel and I are going on a cruise very soon in October. We've never been on a cruise.

[B]

I've never been at sea.

[A]

Yeah, I've been at sea, but not on a cruise. So this is new territory. So that's why we're asking you somewhat oddly focused questions about what can go wrong on the water. No, please.

[B]

Say it's gonna be fine. Say it's gonna be fine.

[C]

It's gonna be fine. If you're on the surface and you're breathing, there's so many problems you've already solved.

[B]

That's true. Okay. That's the way to look at it. I love your answer.

[C]

I've already solved so many problems. You guys are gonna be great. And also, the more you eat, the more insulation you have. Against another major problem that we will see in Normandy, which is hypothermia.

[B]

I was gonna say we are actually gonna do a podcast about the Bermuda Triangle. From the Bermuda Triangle. What could go wrong? We're not tempting fate.

[C]

If there are technology glitches, I'm going to suspect they were intentional on your part. Like, I'm just letting you know, I'm giving us a.

[B]

A lot of credit here, but I appreciate that.

[A]

Hold the periscope. We are making this, as we said, a purposeful two parter and we're excited to see how much deeper this story goes.

[B]

But deeper. Hold the periscope. Ben, you're on fire. Better dunk you into some water.

[A]

Thank you, sir. We're reaching a new level of depth. Terrible puns. Yeah. Some people would say they're subpar. Look, we gotta.

[B]

Oh, my dear Lord.

[A]

All right, all right. So big, big thanks to our returning guests, Dr. Rachel Big Spinach Lance and Noel. Just the energy and the knowledge here I. I am having such a time.

[B]

The passion. She's a wonderful person. She's an expert in her very, very niche and delightful field. And we are so grateful that she. She came to hang out with for not one, but two episodes.

[A]

And here's a mark of character for Dr. Lance. We try. Spoiler. At the end of our second episode, we try to get her to say something bad about Jonathan Strickland, AKA the Quizzter. And I suspect she was just too nice to do so.

[B]

She won't do it.

[A]

Big thanks to our super producer, Mr. Max Williams. Big thanks to Alex Williams, who composed this track. Who else? Who else?

[C]

Who else?

[B]

Oh, geez. Yeah. Christopher Otis and Eve's Jeffcoats here in spirit. Jonathan Strickland the Quter, AJ Bahamas Jacobs the Puzzler. And of course, Rachel Big Spinach Land. How could we not thank her again as. As we always do.

[A]

And join us later this week when we're back with more from Rachel.

[B]

We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[D]

There's nothing like sinking into [e-mail]. You'll find the Annabe Sofa which combines ultimate comfort and design at an affordable price. And get this, it's the only sofa that's fully machine washable from top to bottom starting at only $699. The stain resistance resistant performance fabric slipcovers and cloud like frame duvet can go straight into your wash. Perfect for anyone with kids, pets or anyone who loves an easy to clean spotless sofa. With a modular design and changeable slipcovers, you can customize your sofa to fit any space and style. Whether you need a single chair, loveseat or a luxuriously large sectional, Annabe has you covered. Visit washablesofas.com to upgrade your home right now. Now you can shop up to 60% off store wide with a 30 day money back guarantee. Shop [e-mail] Add a little to your life. Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[A]

For years everyone thought Verizon had the best network because they did. But now the best mobile Network in the US is T Mobile. T Mobile. T Mobile's network has the most advanced 5G with more towers and their signal reaches further than ever. So you can text an Insta talk and say, you won't believe where I am.

[B]

T Mobile has the best mobile Network in the US based on analysis by Ookla of speed test intelligence data 1H2025CT.

[A]

Mobile.Comnetwork this episode of ridiculous History is brought to you by American Public University.

[B]

American Public University is the number one provider of education to our military and veterans in the country.

[A]

They offer something truly unique special rates and grants for the entire family, making education affordable not just for those who serve, but also for their loved ones.

[B]

If you have a military or veteran family member and are looking for affordable, high quality education, APU is the place for you.

[A]

So visit APU Apus Edumilitary to learn more today.

[B]

That's APU APUS Edumilitary. Honestly, Honestly, Honestly, no one wants to think about hiv, but there are things that everyone can do to help prevent it. Things like prep. PREP stands for Pre Exposure Prophylaxis and it means routinely taking prescription medicine before you're exposed to HIV to help reduce your chances of getting it. Prep can be about 99% effective when taken as prescribed. It doesn't protect against other STIs though, so be sure to use condoms and other healthy sex practices. Ask a healthcare provider about all your prevention Options and visit findoutaboutprep.com to learn more.

[C]

Sponsored by Gilead this is an I heart podcast.