The Terrifying Science of Tiny Subs and D-Day, Part Two: The Rise of the Chamber Divers

Summary

Ridiculous History: "The Terrifying Science of Tiny Subs and D-Day, Part Two – The Rise of the Chamber Divers"

Podcast: Ridiculous History (iHeartPodcasts)
Original Air Date: September 11, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this engaging and informative episode, hosts Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown continue their exploration of wartime innovation, focusing on the intersection of genetics, mad science, and desperate necessity that propelled Allied advances in submarine technology before and during D-Day. Featuring guest Dr. Rachel Lance, author of Chamber Divers, the episode highlights the fascinating and sometimes harrowing tales of scientists who risked their lives to develop underwater survival techniques and technology, changing the course of WWII amphibious operations.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Scientist Refugees and J.B.S. Haldane’s Lab

(03:43–11:34)

• J.B.S. Haldane, a brilliant and controversial geneticist at UCL, responded to Hitler’s rise (and antisemitic policies) by bringing young, lesser-known Jewish scientists from Germany to England with help from the Rockefeller Foundation.
  • Quote: “He believed him. And so immediately one of his efforts... was bringing over Jewish scientists from Germany as refugees.” — Dr. Rachel Lance (05:03)
• Introduction to Ursula Philip, an expert geneticist and “historical sister” to Rachel Lance, whose personal quirks became part of lab lore.
• At this time, genetics was mostly studied through statistics and population-level math, not yet the molecular biology we know today.

The Fierce Rivalry in Early Genetic Science

(11:34–13:22)

• Haldane's lab at UCL was deeply anti-eugenics, in direct opposition to Ronald Fisher’s pro-eugenics faction. Hostility was so intense that their offices were on opposite ends of campus to prevent physical altercations.
  • Quote: “He and Ronald Fisher... had to put their offices on opposite sides of campus so that they wouldn't physically fight each other.” — Dr. Rachel Lance (13:17)
• This rivalry mirrored broader, high-stakes debates in science about human difference and race.

The Development and Peril of Chamber Diving

(19:09–27:15)

• Scientists turned to self-experimentation in hyperbaric chambers—heavy, metal tubes with either tiny or no windows, capable of simulating the pressures of deep water.
• They studied how the human body copes with limited oxygen and high-pressure environments, essential knowledge for developing underwater breathing apparatuses and mini-subs.
  • Quote: “They started putting themselves in these chambers... and started studying these effects of underwater physiology. What they discover still shapes pretty much everything we know today about survival underwater.” — Dr. Rachel Lance (25:08)
• The work was grueling and dangerous: seizures, decompression sickness, and even close brushes with death were commonplace, as with Helen Spurway, who regularly experienced seizures inside the chamber.

Application: From Mad Science to D-Day Tactics

(27:30–36:15; 38:56–51:47)

• The Royal Navy’s interest prompted development of “mini subs” (or “midget subs”)—tiny, dangerous, but potentially game-changing underwater craft.
  • Quote: “They are cute. How dare you? They are cute. They're adorable, and I love them.” — Dr. Rachel Lance, on mini-subs (28:30)
• The X-craft: a class of mini-subs, about 40 feet long but with very limited living space, were initially dismissed but soon proved invaluable in reconnaissance and special operations.
• Novel tactics emerged: these subs could sit on the seafloor for up to 18 hours, enabling covert deployment of divers to scout beaches, take soil samples, and assess German defenses.
  • Quote: “They measured the angles. They took samples of the sand. They noted where there were footprints...because if the Germans were walking there, it means there’s no mines.” — Dr. Rachel Lance (34:09)
• This intelligence directly addressed previous failures (such as Dieppe, 1942) by providing nuanced, actionable beach intel ahead of D-Day.
• Their work, though classified at the time, underpinned the meticulous planning and unprecedented successes of the Normandy landings, especially regarding underwater demolition and minimizing casualties.
  • Quote: “On the British beaches... they had not one single diving related casualty. It was because this group had done it all on themselves in their lab in London during the blitz...” — Dr. Rachel Lance (51:20)

Ethics and Self-Experimentation

(42:25–45:36)

• During WWII, ethical boundaries were blurry: scientists routinely experimented on themselves out of necessity, risking life and limb for breakthroughs.
  • Quote: “Testing on yourself is actually a what not to do thing... you can so easily bias the data.” — Dr. Rachel Lance (44:01)
• The horrors of Nazi experimentation and Nuremberg Trials postwar reshaped scientific ethics, making such practices mostly forbidden today.

Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes

• Apocryphal Histories: Ursula Philip’s frantic Nazi escape, forgetting her dissertation, and her daughter’s dismissive laughter. (06:46)
• Stereotypes of Academia: “Is it true that professors fight all the time?” — Ben Bolin (16:11), leading to stories of barricade-jumping and even “pantsing” during the Blitz. (18:00)
• Claustrophobia Inside Chambers: “A lot of people have very severe claustrophobia inside chambers when they don't any other place in the world.” — Dr. Rachel Lance (22:33)
• True Danger: Haldane’s near-fatal seizure in the chamber—with his smaller colleague, Martin Case, desperately fending him off and signaling distress by tapping a hammer on the walls. Haldane broke a vertebra in his own back during the incident. (46:12 – 48:54)
• Revisionist War Stories: The D-Day chapter describing how “not one single diving related casualty” occurred on the British side thanks to the research. (51:20)

Modern Legacy and Pop Culture

• Chamber diving’s lessons endure: many techniques developed for D-Day are still fundamental to modern special operations forces.
• Revisiting these stories—with a nod to pop culture (Stone Temple Pilots, Michael Jackson’s hyperbaric chamber, etc.)—the hosts and guest keep things light without trivializing the risks and heroics of those involved. (00:42, 22:07)
• Good-natured pokes at scientific obsession: Helen Spurway’s love of newts, cold-calling strangers for pond access. (23:56)

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Important Timestamps & Segments

• 03:43–08:33 — Dr. Rachel Lance introduces J.B.S. Haldane, Jewish refugee scientists, and Ursula Philip
• 11:34–13:22 — Geneticists’ epic campus rivalry: anti-eugenics vs. pro-eugenics at UCL
• 19:09–27:15 — Hyperbaric chamber self-experiments: methodology, risks, and consequences
• 27:30–36:15 — The rise of British “mini subs”, their tactical use, impact on D-Day
• 38:56–51:47 — Real results: D-Day, underwater demolition teams, innovations, and the unsung success of the chamber divers
• 42:25–45:36 — Ethics of wartime experimentation: how WWII changed scientific consent forever
• 46:12–48:54 — Detailed retelling of Haldane’s life-threatening chamber incident

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Tone and Style

• The episode is energetic, witty, and full of nerdy passion. The hosts and guest maintain a balance of reverence for history and love of quirky, sometimes absurd scientific minutiae.
• Plenty of playful banter and darkly comic asides: “How else will we make our witches brew? You gotta have newts.” — Noel Brown (24:57)
• Approachable and educational, the conversation invites both history buffs and curious newcomers into the wild, unsung world of WWII chamber divers.

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Resources & Guest Info

• Dr. Rachel Lance’s latest book: Chamber Divers — For further reading on this subject.
• Contact & follow: rachellancewrites.com and Instagram/Twitter @nderwaterlance

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Conclusion

This episode masterfully combines history, science, and storytelling to shed light on a little-known chapter of D-Day preparations: maverick scientists who risked their lives, navigated ethical gray zones, and invented the underwater tools and tactics that quietly changed history. An essential listen for anyone fascinated by the intersection of science, war, and human courage.

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[This summary skips all advertisements and sponsor messages.]

Transcript

[A]

Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to the show, fellow Ridiculous historians. Thank you as always so much for tuning in. This is part 2222 of a continuing series on tiny subs and D Day and I just couldn't be more excited to continue.

[B]

That's my favorite Stone Temple Pilots album. Tiny Subs and D Day Knowing Us Tiny Music Songs from the Vatican Gift Shop, which also could be the title of a Ridiculous History episode.

[A]

Yeah, and I'm Ben Bolan, you're Noel Brown. We're in Media Rest with an astonishing story that has everything. A little bit of ridiculous crime, some mad science, some skullduggery and classified documents, and of course the ever present threat of death.

[B]

Let's jump right in. Or dive, I guess.

[C]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[D]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

That's Apu. Apus. Edu. Now, with this setup, we have learned about the guy's selfish motives for asking Rachel all these questions. We've also learned and thank you, Rachel. We've also learned that there was a tremendous opportunity, there was immense danger, and therefore there was a profound need for someone to figure out what the heck was going on. And this is maybe where, Rachel, we introduce our characters, our human elements. We gave a little foreshadowing before.

[B]

Teased a love story.

[A]

We teased a love story.

[C]

Yeah, there's a little science nerd love story in there. So we already talked about JBS Haldane. He is our leader of this genetics lab at ucl. Now, one of the things that JBS Haldane did, and I don't want to make him sound too much like a glossy, shiny superhero, he was a complicated and nuanced person. He made a lot of people mad in his time. But I think that complicated people can also still do really great things. One of the amazing things that he did was when Hitler got elected in 1933, which again, Hitler, some problems. I have notes. He was very. He was very.

[A]

I mean, yes.

[C]

Also he was very open at the time of his election that he blamed Jewish people for all of the problems in Germany. It was so effective for him to create a scapegoated other, especially of this Jewish population that didn't necessarily have a huge platform to fight back. And so he really manipulated that in order to get elected. And when he did, a huge number of people thought, oh, it was just talk. He's not actually going to try and do this stuff like this was just election talk. But a lot of other people believed him. Now, what JBS Haldane did was he believed him. And so immediately one of his efforts that he started participating in as much as he could was bringing over Jewish scientists from Germany as refugees. So he worked with an American foundation that still exists called the Rockefeller foundation, and they were willing to provide some of the money for the labor funding. And then Haldane was willing to provide them a lab, home, and since he could be like, hey, they have a job here that let them legally immigrate over to England and bring their families to a place where he. It was safer. You know, obviously the blitz later occurs, but it was safer than being a Jewish family in Germany. And so he has, at this point, filled his lab mostly with Jewish refugee scientists. And one of the things that he also started doing was he recognized that the people, the scientists who are already famous, who were very well established, would have an easy time getting out. And sure enough, they did. So he started looking for fresh scientists and young graduates because he was like, these are the ones that need help. He's got this lab full of young, very eager, excited to be in England. Jewish refugee scientists. One of them is this woman named Ursula Philip, who I have to shout out by name because she is, I feel like my historical sister. One of the first. When I finally found her daughter and interviewed her daughter, one of the first things that her daughter said was that, like, she used to be embarrassed because she came from this family that was historically very wealthy, which she was clumsy, and she would always spill food. Anytime they got her nice clothes, she would spill food on herself. And I was like, yes, Ursula, I see you. I'm late. Yes, I am the same. So I felt like I really related to her. And there had been this kind of apocryphal story that when she fled, she had to run from the Nazis so quickly that she had to have somebody mail her. Her doctoral dissertation to her. And her daughter just started laughing. And she's like, no, she forgot it. Like, she just forgot to pack it. And I was like, ursula, I see you. So, yeah, yeah. So Ursula Philip is an expert in genetics, as are most of the people in this lab. Now, at this time, this is before Franklin Crick had really discovered the structure of DNA. So they suspect something like DNA is influencing inheritance, but it hasn't been discovered yet. So the way genetics was studied, and this is relevant to D day, I swear I'll get there.

[A]

The way genetics, we're loving it.

[C]

Null is rolling his eyes. He's like, sure. No, I'm not. I would talk about back more. I do work in it. Okay, so the reason this is relevant is because the way that genetics is studied this time is through math and through studying what happens on population levels. So if you have 100 fruit flies and they all have fruit fly babies, how are their traits passed down to the next generation? How many get red eyes? How many get black eyes? And that is how they are looking at how these patterns of inheritance occur generation to generation.

[A]

Still sort of the pea pod game.

[C]

Exactly, exactly that. The pea pods, which, if you don't know the reference, it's like looking at wrinkled peas versus smooth peas and purple flowers versus white flowers. This is a classic experiment that you should have been tortured with in high school biology, but this is one of the ways that people were looking at dominant versus recessive genes and how the Ps were passing these different traits down. Yeah. So same idea, but kicked up seven notches with advanced calculus, Looking at how traits occur across big populations.

[B]

So they're using the math to discern patterns or to, like, kind of pull out those kind of stats.

[C]

Exactly. And how groups will react to something. So, for example, if you make a change and you treat group A of ducks differently and feed them something than group B of ducks and you count how many eggs each produce, can you compare those two groups and say, yes, the difference was what I did with a reasonable degree of confidence, or no, this is within the bounds of random chance. This is an amount of variation that happens through random chance. So this is not a good way to. To get my ducks to make more eggs. So that's kind of what they're looking at. Or like, one of the famous ways that they did this is they looked at the heights of schoolgirls. So they're like, what height can we expect schoolgirls to be in these London schools? Now, the reason this is relevant is because every person is a little bit different from every other person. Even identical twins. You have what's called genetic and biological variability. That's why, Ben, you have a majestic mustache and I do not.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. Thank you. By the way. I'm in kind of a cold war with my girlfriend over this one.

[C]

I'm Proustache.

[A]

You know what? You gotta pick your battles. Right.

[C]

In support. Pen's mustache, please.

[A]

We're starting to go stash me. There's something of that nature.

[C]

But yeah, either way, we're both people. But that's a huge difference.

[A]

And this is also, by the way, coming even in what would say, the early days of genetic science. This is existing in the context of some very serious and very problematic racial ideas disguised as fact. Right?

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Arguments for genetics.

[C]

Absolutely right. So there are two schools of thought at this time, and both of them exist at UCL in warring genetics labs. I am happy to say Haldane was on the good side. He was the one who thought eugenics were wrong. So he was like, no, no, no, There are differences. That doesn't mean better. He was just like, yeah, so he was the lead warrior on the side of anti eugenics. So this is a good Like I said, he was occasionally a difficult person. He was known for occasionally having explosive outbursts. He was very particular. If he liked you, it was because you could talk to him about his group of science. If he didn't like you, it was because you had told him no or cost him and he would try and make your life hell. He's one of those personalities. I don't have the expertise to say this, but I do think it would be an interesting historical evaluation of someone with expertise in autism to look at some of the stuff. But regardless, he was undeniably brilliant. He and Ronald Fisher, who's the head of the pro eugenics side, they had to put their offices on opposite sides of campus so that they wouldn't physically fight each other.

[A]

Like separating cats.

[C]

Yeah, they separated the cats so that they wouldn't get in fist fights.

[D]

Wow.

[C]

Right about math.

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

That's Apu Apus Edu. This is something that we have to point out. Just a quick pause here. For anybody who is not familiar with academia, there is often a stereotype of every, every expert being somewhat milquetoast or, you know, somewhat, somewhat passive in their interactions. And the boffins. Right, the boffins. Just naturally what you're describing here, I think gives lie to that stereotype and assumption. Is it true that professors fight all the time?

[C]

I don't want to say they physically fight all the time, but professors and academics and scientists more generally, typically are people who have decided to dedicate their entire lives to their niche special interest. It's like, I want to do this 60 hours a week. This is my niche special interest. So you have to imagine that there are professors who are checked out like there are. Academia is a very difficult environment a lot of the time. And there are professors who get checked out for one reason or the other. And that's pretty universal. But for the most part, they at least started with a fiery passion and deep love of the topics they're studying and super dedicated.

[A]

And so. So this is like, it reminds me of. Well, since we already said there was a right and wrong side of this particular history of genetics.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Let's call it Sith and Jedi.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Separated on campus.

[C]

I'm comfortable with that. Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And I will tell you we can take some like little shot and fortigly when the blitz starts. They tried like hell to evacuate the UCL campus. And these two groups are the ones that just refused to. And they like, they tried to turn off the electricity, they tried to turn off the gas. They were like trying everything to force. They put up barricades. They literally put up barricades. And both of these two Groups, the pro eugenics Fisher group and the anti eugenics Haldane group were the ones that were like, figuring out how to get past the barricades so they could go to their labs. So there's one funny scene that we can laugh at where Ronald Fisher is trying to climb over like a barricade and the guards try to stop him and they literally pants this guy. Oh, no. Classic, classic. Try to pull him because he's clambering over the barricade and they got him by the pants, which for our British listeners, I've learned means something else. It would be his trousers.

[B]

In English, his trousers, pantaloons, not his underwear.

[C]

Right. So that's like. That's like how intensely these people are. Focused science as a concept. So the reason, yeah, we kind of went on a side journey which was very fun. But the reason that this matters is because once you start exposing people to weird gases, I'm going to respond differently than Ben is going to respond. And we're going to respond differently than Noel is going to respond or our silent producer Max is going to respond. All of us are going to have variation. And especially with some of these gases which this lab discovered, you will even vary day to day. So there is no such thing as how much oxygen can Rachel Lance take? There is how much oxygen can Rachel Lance take today? And the reason they needed to figure that out and create all of these probability curves and give someone their percent chance of being safety was because they didn't. You can't test it for individuals, so they started out doing it on themselves. They got in these devices called hyperbaric chambers. These are giant metal tubes. They're usually cylindrical. Sometimes they're spherical, but either way, that's to hold the pressure in. They sealed the doors shut to paint some of this picture. These are thick metal walls. Some of them have tiny little windows, others do not. So sometimes the only light coming in is from maybe like a 2 to 3 inch little piece of really, really thick glass portal. Others have no windows. Some of them go shallow enough that you can maybe bring a light in with you. But that's a fire hazard that will light a fire in a chamber. And then the.

[B]

Can I just quickly give a recommendation for a TV show? Department Q features the hyperbaric chamber as a major plot point. So if you want to see, it's very good. And you in particular, I think, would appreciate it because it's got a lot of references to deep sea pressure tests and things like, yeah, okay, it's the first time I'd ever seen one of these for real and it's very much a big part of the show.

[C]

Okay, I appreciate the tip. Cannot vouch for accuracy yet. I will go watch it and report back.

[B]

Let us know.

[A]

Rachel, you're just haunted by having to watch fiction.

[C]

Oh no, the film. No, I love it, I love it.

[A]

What was it you said? I remember there was a moment in our previous conversation regarding the Hunley and you kicked us some facts about film explosions and we were just so righteously irritated about it.

[C]

Yeah, I still carry that flag, but you know, I've got a lot of flags to carry.

[B]

Suspend your disbelief, Dr. Lin.

[A]

Suspend it.

[C]

Yes, film explosions are frequently inaccurately portrayed. Perhaps you need to go review the previous episode for the full details of that. It is in the first book. It isn't in the waves, but.

[A]

Yeah, but also going back to as you said, the hyperbaric chambers, which we'll all remember from Michael Jackson, his life and career.

[C]

So his clear. Yeah, his were clear. They were made out of acrylic because he was not going very deep. But that's that same idea. So that is a great visual. But imagine that thick walled metal with no ability to light. And now when you go in them, one of the first sensations that you experience is the noise and the heat because people outside are controlling the chamber and they are pumping pressurized gas inside. That's how we simulate high depths. That's how we simulate the depths of the ocean. So as that happens, the gas around you is compressing, it heats up. The gas flow through those pipes is very loud. So a lot of people have very severe claustrophobia inside chambers when they don't any other place in the world. And they often, the first time they're in one, get really nervous. So when I was running experiments before, back in professor life, when I would run experiments, a lot of what I would do is talk to the subjects, make sure they have time in the chamber, make sure they know what to expect, make sure they're mentally comfortable. Because this is an environment that can feel terrifying. Even though statistically it's very safe. Like statistically it's really, really safe. Unscrupulous chambers like the one in Tri, Michigan where there was the explosion last year, those can go horribly awry. But the safety standards for reputable chambers mean that those ones that are run to code have extremely good safety records.

[B]

Can I just say I love the idea of unscrupulous chambers.

[C]

Oh yeah, there are some shady ass chambers out there. So yeah, you want to make sure. They're being run to safety code. Yeah. And so it is an experience that can feel overwhelming. So this group, JBS Haldane, his girlfriend who he met in the lab, her name is Helen Spurway. She loves genetics. She particularly studied newts. I cannot tell you how many records I pulled with her name on them that turned out to be literally her keeping calendars of what kinds of newts she found that day and where they were. These are extreme special interest people. She would go knock on the houses of strangers, be like, I notice you have a pond in your backyard. Can I go wading in it and look for newts?

[A]

A thousand times, yes. Yeah, you know what I mean. Our most interesting cold call of the day.

[C]

If you expect, explain them to me as you.

[B]

How else will we make our witches brew? You've got to have roots.

[C]

So then there's another character, another gentleman named Martin Case, as well as Jim Rendell. So these are kind of our cast of characters collectively. And they start putting themselves in the chambers because the blitz is starting. People are evacuating. The Royal Navy understands they have a problem, but they also have bigger problems with the active warfare that started happening. And so the scientists realized that they are the only possible solution now. They are the only ones with the ability to help. And so this lab in downtown London that is making the breathing apparatuses, it's a company called Siva Gorman. They open their chambers, they're like, do whatever you need. We're here for you. Use our lab as you will. And so this genetics team puts themselves in these chambers, pressurizes themselves, and start studying these effects of underwater physiology. Now, what they discover still shapes pretty much everything we know today about survival underwater. It's wild how much they discovered, and they discovered it all in themselves. And we can get into more details while you guys kind of lead that. But just to, like, let it be known, these experiments do not always go well. Some of the effects of what can happen to you underwater. They saw a brief preview with the Thetis crew that came out so roughed up, but you get seizures, you get unconsciousness, you get decompression sickness. In one particular experiment, Helen Spurway kept seizing while she was inside the chamber. And what's important here is, is you are locked in a metal tube the whole time. There is no outside help. You are there with your person who's in there with you, and they are your only hope. So that kept happening over and over again. And despite everything that they kept discovering, using themselves, just like the submariners, they went in there every time saying, today might be my bad day, but we need to figure this out. So I'm gonna show up.

[A]

That's crazy, because, you know, imagine you just got pantsed by security and you're like, this also still might be the day I did.

[C]

That was the eugenics guy. So that was.

[A]

Oh, that's different. Okay. Oh, forget that guy.

[C]

Forget that guy.

[A]

That guy's a clown.

[C]

Yeah. And then they took their math. They took their math from studying genetics and they started applying it to their experiments, and they started using the math to describe and give the Royal Navy what the Royal Navy could then do safely. So here's how much stuff you need to bring on your mini subs to scrub out the carbon dioxide. Here's the mini sub volume you can build that starts turning into mini subs that are then scouting the beaches of Normandy in advance of D Day. Here's what you can do in terms of diving. Here's how deep you can go. Here's what gas mixture you need. And so all of these prescriptions start coming out of this lab.

[A]

Well, what are. At that point, I think one of our first questions has to be, what are mini subs? Because I'll be honest, as one of the most ignorant folks I've ever met, I immediately think it's some kind of cute submarine.

[B]

Well, I immediately picture the one that imploded, that was controlled with a police station remote.

[C]

They are cute. How dare you? They are cute. They're adorable, and I love them. Yeah. So traditionally, that class of submarines has always been called midget submarines. I feel like we're talking about subs, so it's probably not problematic. I prefer mini subs just because that's, you know. But either way, these are submarines that are extremely small. And there's no specific size cutoff between a mini sub and a regular sub. But generally, mini subs are going to have crews of somewhere between 3 and 10 people at most. And so, yeah, the one that imploded, the Titan, definitely would qualify as a mini sub. And then the ones that the H.L. hunley qualified as a mini sub, that was a crew of eight. So the ones that they were building during World War II were kind of a rogue project. We had this Royal Navy admiral who was convinced that these were the way forward, even though they'd never really been built for successfully. Like, nobody's built at this point in time. A small sub that has worked in warfare, even though people see the potential, the reason for that has been largely lack of understanding of how to survive in them. Like I said, it's like breathing inside of a plastic bag as opposed to breathing inside of a room, which you're.

[B]

Not supposed to do, by the way. Don't do toys.

[C]

Don't do it. It's a bad idea. Your breathing becomes a lot more stiff, sensitive, because the changes around you happen so much quicker. So mini subs need a lot more careful, in my opinion, a lot more careful engineering for the breathing apparatuses, things like that. Which, by the way, that one that imploded didn't have a breathing apparatus. So pretty sure all that. Like, oh, you've got four days.

[B]

One of the many things that overlooked.

[C]

Pretty sure it was just a lie. So good times. But, yeah. So this kind of rogue admiral starts tapping into this Haldane group as well and being like, hey, I want to build mini subs. Can you make it work? I want to build mini subs.

[A]

That is, by the way, folks, a verbatim and 100% accurate impression.

[C]

Yeah, thank you. I've practiced that a lot. That's just including the total lack of British accent.

[A]

I love the voice. I love this character.

[C]

Yeah, okay. But anyway, I mean, again, this is a group of people who collect actively is all like, yeah, we got to get creative now. So they were on board with it, and they started helping and getting him the information they need. So the subs he ends up getting built. At first, the Royal Navy is sort of just mollifying him, right? They're like, yeah, we'll let you waste some resources on this if it'll shut you up. But they're called the X craft. They come up with this class called the X craft. And so these are mini subs that are about 40ft long, they're about 18ft wide. But what you have to understand is that's not living space. That's the outer hull. So you have pressure hull, you have engine, you have tons and tons of equipment. By the time you actually have worked your way in, the space for people to live is really tiny. There are pictures of this in the book in chamber divers. You can also Google them. They will come up. But there is one spot in the very center of the X craft that is tall enough for someone to stand up in one person at a time. Wow. So that's what you're living in when you're talking minis up. And these X craft, again, started out as this sort of side project, but as this admiral is using them and he starts kind of demonstrating their purpose, they actually also developed the ability for divers to use the submarine escape apparatuses and exit the X craft on purpose to then dive. So what you've now created is a mini sub that can go in shallow waters, approach a beach, release a person while still underwater, and let them swim ashore without making any bubbles, because that's how these rebreathers were working. Imagine the special operations potential of that. For the first time, that is something that is still a tactic that is considered like an advanced special operations move. Navy SEALs do this. Marine Force Recon do this. That is still a technique that's used today. And it traced 100% back to the scientific group, creating the ability to have these substantially small volumes. So what you see as the Royal Navy starts to have their oh. Moment and realize how valuable this is, they start trying to make as many as they can. There's a shortage of them. They actually lose a couple in a lot of these early missions, which was really sad. But they're learning from it in a positive way, and they start sending these over. So the X craft started going over to this little place called Normandy. And what they would do is they would sit on the bottom of the ocean, and we never hear about this part. It's awesome. We never hear about this. They would sit on the bottom of the ocean for 18 hours a day, thanks to their ability to process the breathing gas inside this tiny space. And then at night, when the moon conditions were right, and they would come up and they would release the diver and they would refresh their air. And they didn't use diving apparatuses for these missions, but they would release them as swimmers, and the swimmers would swim in. They would take measurements of the shores. They measured the angles. They took samples of the sand. They noted where there were footprints, because if the Germans were walking there, it means there's no mines. This is a safe place to walk. They noted where there were no footprints.

[B]

These are all things that were overlooked in that previous massacre situation. There's the absolute lack of recon.

[C]

Right.

[B]

So this is what we're. Okay.

[C]

Yeah. So what Noel is talking about about is a raid that occurred in August 1942 at Dieppe, France, where they tried the same. They tried the same tactic of just, like, throw as many people as you can at the problem. And it was a massacre. They just got absolutely mowed down. Part of the reason for that was because the beach turned out to be rocks instead of sand. So that small change meant that those rocks got stuck in the tank treads. The tanks, all through their treads. Some of them literally, like, caught on fire from it. So all of a sudden your main cold gets injured.

[B]

Holy cow.

[C]

The little beach change ruined everything. It was not the only problem, but they didn't have recon. And so now, before Normandy, you're seeing the importance of recon. They're taking soil samples. They brought those soil samples back to the uk. They actually had a NASCAR driver evaluating them. He was someone who was famous for driving on sand. He'd been flown over there to be like, what will this type of sand hold? They were working with geologists. They had the troops practice on beaches with the exact same angle and sand type on purpose so that when they were running they knew exactly what it would feel like the day of. And these scouting troops, these, they're called cop. Copp. It stands for combined Operations. Pilotage Parties with the xcraft are the ones that got all of that information. They got it for the Royal Navy. It was completely classified and that's why it wasn't really talked about until modern times.

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[C]

It's wild. You read these reports of what they were doing. It's wild because Saving Private Ryan really famously characterized what happened on Omaha beach, one of the two American beaches where, number one, they ran aground on like raised ridges that were still underwater before they reached the proper beach. And a lot of people drowned because they were running in from these raised ridges. And then they would get to a deeper area called a runnel. And because they were wearing equipment, they drowned. And then they also slightly missed their landing target and accidentally landed under a big heavy artillery battery, which Tom Hanks points out. He's sitting in the sand and he's like, this is in Omaha Beach. That's Omaha beach, right? So those two mistakes were drivers of huge quantities of the casualties on Omaha. And both of those things were in these British reports in advance. They knew this by January of 1944. These scouts have reported these two things are very likely at Omaha Beach. It needs to be approached with caution. It's going to be the hardest beach to land on. I don't know whether or not that information was passed to the Americans. I don't know whether the British gave it to the Americans for that reason. But I do know that that shows you the power of scouting and the power of this underwater science stealth that was developed for that same purpose.

[A]

I mean, it's phenomenal because this is, as you said, perhaps out of necessity or the legacy of necessity. This is a story that could not be told for. For a little while, right? Especially given all the scientific advancements it informed that would later be a big part of special operations in a lot.

[B]

Of modern militaries in the classification. Right. Of the doc. I mean, the fact that you were able.

[C]

It was all classified. Yeah. Because this was still secret technology. They still didn't want people to know what they had done and what they could do.

[A]

I wish there was still, you know, what's that old saw about the radar and eating carrots? I wish we had some. I wish we had some radar. Love by Golden Ear I don't know which song.

[C]

Yeah, no, like, the Allies had developed a more advanced version of radar. And to compensate, they started spreading rumors that they discovered that carrots and beta carotene improved the vision of their pilots. And that was like. That was like their rumor that they started to, like, hide the fact they had new technology. So what do you think? Can it be spinach based? What do you. What rumor should we start?

[A]

It's gotta be. It's gotta be spinach based. How are they. How do they know everything about the beach?

[C]

Yes. Spinach brain power.

[A]

Yeah. We've got a partially declassified document about spinach. I've said too much.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

The Germans are on top.

[C]

Exactly. You're better at holding your breath if you have large quantities.

[A]

That's it. That's perfect. So we spread that to the Cambridge Five or whatever as they're spying. So in this, though, as you said, we have to return to the fact that the experiments these hardcore maverick rogue scientists were conducting, because Noel and I both love the word maverick.

[C]

It's a good one. It's a good one.

[A]

It's just a 10, 10 word. They were conducting these experiments in service of a greater good. So they're kind of violating typical established ethical constraints of experiments. Right.

[C]

They are very much for today's standards. So a lot of what we talk about today when we talk about informed consent and we talk about ethical standards, came from World War II, especially the discovery of the atrocities of the concentration camps. Because I will say I did want to present a little bit about what one particular German scientist was doing in the book, because I thought he had a really interesting ethical conundrum. He was a German aviator who then started studying some of the same things for the German side. But he thought it was absolutely appalling the way the other German scientists were operating. And so he also used himself. He would not test on unconsenting Jewish subjects. He wouldn't. But he was being forced. Yeah, you gotta respect that. Like, he was being forced. He's in Nazi held Germany. He's being told, do these things, Tell us these answers. And he was like, I will do it. But Only on myself. So you gotta kind of. You gotta kind of respect the difficulty of that situation and the fact that he chose himself over the prisoners. Because after World War II, that's when you start seeing the Nuremberg Trials. The Nuremberg Trials are where we get most of our modern code of ethics for experimentation. So that's where we get most of.

[B]

Our lives, AKA what not to do.

[C]

What not to do. Now testing on yourself is actually a what not to do thing.

[B]

That's right.

[C]

Because you can so easily bias the data, even accidentally didn't think about that angle. Right. So one of the buzz phrases in science that gets thrown a lot without explanation is double blind controlled study. What that means, double blind is both the person getting the treatment and the investigator do not know who is getting what. So if I'm giving Noel some drugs that I want to test.

[B]

Yes, please.

[C]

Yeah. I do not know if I am giving Noel the drug or the placebo. Because like just we as humans, we have so much nonverbal communication. We have so many inherent biases that we. That is the source of a lot of scientific error. And it doesn't have to be nefarious. Like it doesn't have to be people doing it on purpose. And that's why you do that double blinding. So with these experiments where they were doing it on themselves, that was out of necessity, but now it's really considered not allowed because of the ease of creating essentially junk science or incorrect results. You want emotional separation so that you can be as objective as possible. Most of that happened post World War II. At this time period, it was still fairly commonplace for scientists to use themselves first. Because like I said, these are people who are the most passionate about their topics. Right.

[A]

And this is where as we're wrapping up a little bit, as we're approaching to close, we have to talk about what you established earlier. This was dangerous for these folks. Right. They're not doing theoretical math. They are at some point, I imagine, arguing over notepads. Sure. But they're doing it after they've survived this barrage of conditions in hyperbaric chambers. Can you tell us about some of the close calls or things that got close to going very badly?

[C]

One of the early close calls that they had was JBS Haldane was the test subject that day. And JBS Haldane was known for being kind of a large man. He was six foot one, which for that generation was massive. Massive. And he called himself fat, like that was his self descriptor. So he was a big guy. The reason that matters is he's now trapped in a tiny metal tube with Martin Case, who is much, much smaller. What they were testing that day is how deep they could go while breathing oxygen. And what they did not know, and they really were pioneers in discovering, is that if you have too much oxygen, it can cause a seizure. So JBS Haldane is the test subject. They think they're going down for just a few cognitive tests. Excuse me? They think he's going to do some math. Hey, math. They think he's going to, like, move a little metal ball around so they can test his dexterity. What ends up happening is JBS Haldane not only has a massive seizure, but he ends up with multiple seizures with lots of mental confusion in between. So this huge man is now barging around this tiny enclosed space, trying to physically bash his way out of the metal walls, because, again, you are confined. Yeah, you are confined. It is not a place that we instinctively want to be. He freaks out. Martin Case is in there single handedly trying to restrain his massive boss as a much smaller person inside this metal walled cylinder where there is no formal communication with the outside. And he has to try and express this emergency through tapping on the wall with a hammer. So, again, there is no help. So that I was really almost honored to be able to write that scene in extreme detail because they sat down and they had a really detailed debrief about it. They were incredible scientists in the sense that they had timekeepers, like, they had stopped synchronized watches, like timekeepers inside the chamber, outside the chamber, and then whoever was driving the chamber. So there are three different accounts that were alignable by time as well as, like their debrief after. And so I was able to write like minute by minute of how that works. And in that incident, Haldane is like hurling himself against this metal wall so hard he fractures one of the vertebrae in his spine. So he literally breaks his own back. And this is sort of a portent because they're at the start of the test series. So this is their example. Any day could be your day. This is what could happen.

[A]

What a good takeaway.

[C]

And they kept getting in. Yeah, they kept getting in. But what. And then, you know, since you said we're kind of wrapping up, I really love to tie this back to. To D day because I wanted to end the book with D day on purpose. So, you know, after that there is like a little wrap up chapter about what they did the rest of their lives. But the last chapter and the chapter that I. I think I'm Prouder of that chapter than anything else I've ever written. I worked so hard to tell the whole story of D Day from the perspective of individual people who were there using, like, oral histories and records and things, things like that. So it is a collection of storming the beaches from individuals who did it. And the reason that some of them survived is because they went in with custom gas mixes in their breathing apparatuses and custom protective gear to protect them against mines in the water that were developed by this exact group. And they didn't know where it came from, but they knew that they had these sheets of guidelines, and those guidelines were rock solid. These were good scientists. And so on the American beaches, the ordinance disposal experts, the frogmen, they went in wearing kind of like lace up boots. They went in anticipating sand because of that's just the way the tides were at Omaha and Utah. But on the British beaches, they sent in divers. They sent in people with breathing apparatuses. They had a hard time at first because just the number of propellers overhead made that job really hard to do safely. But as soon as the propellers start and the ships started being channeled properly, those are the guys who are down there underwater dismantling the bombs and mines to expand and expand and expand the amount of beachfront that allies can safely land on. So on the British beaches and then expanding outward, you have underwater divers dismantling ordinance with their own hands. And they're able to do it because this group made them custom blends of high oxygen that was exactly the right amount for Normandy. And they had not one single diving related casualty. So we. Yeah, we so rarely talk about. In. When we talk about war, we so rarely talk about the things that went extremely right. They didn't have a single diving problem. And it was because this group had done it all on themselves in their lab in London during the blitz to make sure that when they handed these apparatuses and this information to people, it was as safe as humanly possible.

[B]

Success.

[C]

Yeah, big success. On the dining.

[B]

I love to hear it.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And we just hatched our own. Our own disinfo campaign about eating spinach.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

And breathing differently. This has been an absolute pleasure. You have taken us on such a wild ride, Rachel. And just so everybody knows, we are not blowing smoke or we're not breathing the wrong gas when we say that Chamber Divers is a phenomenal book, as is in the waves.

[C]

Aw, thanks.

[A]

Well, thank you for creating. Actually, you know, thank you for putting in the footwork and traveling to foreign lands to get this hidden research. Where can People learn more about your work and just follow you in general.

[C]

Yeah. So I'm pretty Googleable. My Author website is rachellancewrites.com People are free to reach out to. To me through there. I'm kind of rejiggering my social media presence. I was primarily on Twitter, trying to move into Instagram, maybe Blue Sky a little bit, but my handles are always nderwaterlance. I committed the cardinal sin of publishing, which is I was not really available to talk about this story. So I really appreciate you having me now. And yeah, it's been great.

[B]

Thank you so much. Now, at any time, moving forward, I'm sure we'd always love to hang out and talk more about this stuff. Thanks for joining us for sure.

[C]

But yeah, no, I do respond to that. So people are welcome to reach out to me. And yeah, I am working on a third book. We're gonna go to World War I for that one, but it's not public yet, so. Oh, inside scoop.

[A]

You get the inside scoop on a classified, classified project. Awesome.

[C]

Rachel Lamp classification. Yep, Exactly.

[A]

Yes. Yes. It's an RL classification. Yes. Thank you so much. Thanks to Our super producer, Mr. Max Williams, Alex Williams, who composed this track. Noel, do we have a good maritime insult for Jonathan Strickland, AKA the Quizter?

[B]

Oh, my gosh. You put me on the spot.

[A]

I can't give any good ones.

[B]

Scurvy Dog, perhaps?

[A]

That's a good one.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, Rachel, what's like a Submariner insult for someone or, you know, anything.

[C]

Oh, my gosh.

[A]

Will work.

[C]

I mean, usually, honestly, like, real ones. There's just a lot of profanity.

[A]

Okay, we'll go with Scurvy Dog.

[C]

These are hard.

[B]

These are hard. These are hard. Drinking Mavericky Submariners.

[A]

There we go. Yeah.

[B]

All over town.

[A]

Who else do we thank? No.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. We got to thank Christopher, Otis and Eve. Jeff goes here in spirit. We've got to thank AJ Bahamas Jacobs, the puzzler, who is. Who is a lovely man. We have nothing back to say about. Yeah.

[A]

And thank you, though.

[B]

Ah, thanks. You too, buddy. We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[D]

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That's Apu Apus Edu.

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This is an iHeart podcast.