Three Ridiculous Histories of "Bloody Mary"

Summary

Episode Summary: Three Ridiculous Histories of "Bloody Mary"

In this captivating episode of Ridiculous History, hosts Ben Boland and Noel Brown embark on an enthralling exploration of the multifaceted legacy of "Bloody Mary." Joined by their guest producer, Dylan "the Chainsaw" Fagan, the trio delves into the bizarre and intriguing histories that surround the name—from a notorious queen to a beloved morning cocktail, and finally, to a spine-chilling urban legend. This comprehensive summary captures all the key discussions, insights, and conclusions from the episode, enriched with notable quotes and timestamps to guide you through their fascinating journey.

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1. Introduction to Bloody Mary

Duration: 00:00 - 06:27

The episode kicks off with Ben Boland expressing his personal aversion to Bloody Marys, humorously describing it as "a gazpacho with problems" (01:12). Noel Brown echoes his sentiments, sharing his own disinterest in the drink despite its popularity as a hangover cure.

Notable Quote:

Ben Boland (01:12): "I never got the Bloody Mary. It's a gazpacho with problems."

Ben hints at the episode's focus by stating that "Bloody Mary has three different kinds of ridiculous history to it," setting the stage for their deep dive into each aspect.

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2. Bloody Mary the Cocktail

Duration: 06:27 - 13:00

The hosts transition into discussing the Bloody Mary as a cocktail, tracing its origins and evolution. They highlight that the drink was allegedly concocted in 1921 by Fernand Petiot at Harry's Bar in Paris—a hotspot frequented by literary figures like F. Scott Fitzgerald and Ernest Hemingway (07:18).

Notable Quote:

Noel Brown (07:18): "The recipe was first published in a collection of cocktail recipes called Harry's ABC."

Ben and Noel explore regional variations, such as Charleston's inclusion of cold shrimp and pickled okra, adding unique twists to the classic recipe. They also discuss the foundational ingredients: vodka, tomato juice, salt, pepper, Tabasco sauce, Worcestershire sauce, and lemon juice.

The conversation then delves into the etymology of the drink's name, presenting three primary theories:

1. Tribute to a Dancer: Named after a bartender’s crush on a local dancer named Mary (08:29).
2. Ernest Hemingway's Influence: A possibly apocryphal story involving Hemingway's dissatisfaction with the drink (12:45).
3. Queen Mary Tudor's Moniker: Association with the notorious queen known as Bloody Mary in Europe (13:00).

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3. Bloody Mary the Queen

Duration: 13:00 - 44:54

Transitioning from the cocktail, Ben and Noel delve into the historical figure of Queen Mary Tudor, famously known as Bloody Mary. They paint a grim picture of her reign, emphasizing her ruthless persecution of Protestants to restore Catholicism in England.

Notable Quote:

Ben Boland (15:42): "If Mary's administration had their way, everybody who was Protestant would either convert or be murdered."

The discussion covers Mary's tumultuous childhood, her arranged marriage to Philip of Spain, and the political maneuvers that led to the establishment of the Church of England after Henry VIII's failed attempt to annul his marriage to Catherine of Aragon. They highlight Mary's strict Catholic upbringing and the influence of her parents, King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella of Spain, in shaping her harsh policies.

The hosts also touch upon Mary's personal struggles, including phantom pregnancies—a rare medical condition that has historically been attributed to her, adding another layer to her complex persona.

Notable Quote:

Noel Brown (25:03): "That's not Mary's mother, Catherine. That's Catherine's parents, who spearheaded the Spanish Inquisition."

They empathetically explore the factors that may have contributed to Mary's harsh rule, including her isolation and internal conflicts within the royal family.

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4. Bloody Mary the Urban Legend

Duration: 44:54 - 54:00

Shifting gears, Ben and Noel explore the spooky urban legend of Bloody Mary—a ritual where one chants her name into a mirror to invoke her spirit. They set a relatable scene of middle schoolers attempting the ritual during a slumber party.

Notable Quote:

Noel Brown (48:16): "If the ritual is performed correctly, Bloody Mary might appear either in the mirror or reach out of the mirror and scratch her face or be released from the afterlife to haunt him or her forever."

The hosts discuss various theories behind the origin of this legend:

1. Symbolic Representation of Puberty: Folklorist Alan Dundas suggests the ritual symbolizes prepubescent anxiety about upcoming major life events (51:28).
2. Multiple Historical Figures: The legend may amalgamate traits from figures like Mary Tudor and Countess Elizabeth Bathory, both infamous for their cruelty.

They also reference popular culture adaptations, such as "Candyman" and "Beetlejuice," which have perpetuated and transformed the myth of Bloody Mary.

Notable Quote:

Ben Boland (53:10): "Mary is a real taunt to someone like that."

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5. Conclusion and Reflections

Duration: 54:00 - End

Ben and Noel wrap up the episode by connecting the three distinct histories of Bloody Mary, emphasizing the name's enduring presence in various facets of culture. They reflect on how a single name can encapsulate such diverse and contradictory narratives—from tyranny and rebellion to conviviality and fear.

Notable Quote:

Ben Boland (55:23): "Let's keep that one. I like it."

The hosts thank their producer Dylan Fagan and acknowledge their team's contributions, leaving listeners eagerly anticipating future explorations into "unexpected histories."

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Key Takeaways

• Bloody Mary embodies three distinct histories: a tyrannical queen, a popular cocktail, and a haunting urban legend.
• Queen Mary Tudor's reign was marked by brutal persecution in her quest to restore Catholicism in England.
• The Bloody Mary cocktail has a debated origin with variations influenced by regional tastes and historical anecdotes involving famous personalities.
• The Bloody Mary urban legend serves as a cultural touchstone for adolescent fears and supernatural folklore, with roots potentially tied to historical figures known for their cruelty.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Ben Boland (01:12): "I never got the Bloody Mary. It's a gazpacho with problems."
• Noel Brown (07:18): "The recipe was first published in a collection of cocktail recipes called Harry's ABC."
• Ben Boland (15:42): "If Mary's administration had their way, everybody who was Protestant would either convert or be murdered."
• Noel Brown (25:03): "That's not Mary's mother, Catherine. That's Catherine's parents, who spearheaded the Spanish Inquisition."
• Noel Brown (48:16): "If the ritual is performed correctly, Bloody Mary might appear either in the mirror or reach out of the mirror and scratch her face or be released from the afterlife to haunt him or her forever."
• Ben Boland (53:10): "Mary is a real taunt to someone like that."
• Ben Boland (55:23): "Let's keep that one. I like it."

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Ridiculous History masterfully intertwines the diverse narratives of Bloody Mary, offering listeners a rich tapestry of history, culture, and folklore. Whether you're a history aficionado or a lover of spooky tales and classic cocktails, Ben, Noel, and Dylan provide a compelling and entertaining exploration that highlights the absurdity and complexity behind one of the most enigmatic names in history.

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Transcript

[Ben Boland]

Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to the show, fellow ridiculous historians. Thank you as always, so much for tuning. Coming in. Let's hear it for our guest, super producer, Dylan the Chainsaw Fagan. Vroom.

[Noel Brown]

Dylan. The Texas. No, the Tennessee Chainsaw. Gentle Massacre Fagan. Yeah. What a guy. Hope his hands on the men's.

[Ben Boland]

And thanks for giving us a hand, by the way, Dylan. They call me Ben Boland. That's Noel Brown. No, I got to tell you, I don't think we've ever talked about this. Even in the days where I. I would be the kind of person who would go to one of those boozy mimosa brunches or whatever, I never, I never got the Bloody Mary.

[Noel Brown]

Not just for me. No, it's a. It's a cold soup, alcoholic soup.

[Ben Boland]

It's a gazpacho with problems.

[Noel Brown]

Gazpacho soup. Where's my gazpacho soup? Yeah, it's burning my mouth.

[Ben Boland]

Burn my mouth.

[Noel Brown]

Not into it. Yeah. I don't know. I've tried to like it in the past and had a sip. I was dating somebody for a long time who was really into them, but didn't. Didn't go for it. And now I don't really drink too much. So it does seem like a popular go to, like, hangover cure, which basically, just because you're drinking more, it's that hair of the dog situation. Maybe there's vitamins in the juice, I don't know.

[Ben Boland]

Yeah. And look, I'm not morally opposed to the Bloody Mary. Do as thou wilt. There's a lot of creativity in it when you get into the ingredients. But as we're going to learn in this episode, Bloody Mary has three different kinds of ridiculous history to it, going far past the drink.

[Noel Brown]

Three aspects. Right. Like a holy trinity kind of situation.

[Dylan Fagan]

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[Ben Boland]

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[Danielle Robay]

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[Noel Brown]

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I think I was put here to save souls by getting people out of prison.

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[Noel Brown]

How many times you supposed to say it?

[Ben Boland]

Bim in the game that is common in parts of the West.

[Noel Brown]

Candyman rules.

[Ben Boland]

Turn off the lights. Yeah, Candyman rules. You and you say the name Bloody Mary three times.

[Noel Brown]

Three times. Always three. Hey, another holy trinity situation. Whitmer Thomas as our incredible the comedian we very much enjoy. Our incredible research associate Ren points out described the brunch cocktail as a hot wing in a glass. And Ben, I don't know if you've been or seen some of these places that literally will put like a giant like piece of bacon or even a actual hot wing like on the side of the glass. It's outrageous.

[Ben Boland]

They're the buffet approaches.

[Noel Brown]

There you go.

[Ben Boland]

Big Bloody Mary value add for brunch is that you go to a ridiculous spread of ingredients that you can put into your Bloody Mary and people just go nuts with it. It's like it's like an old Dagwood sandwich.

[Noel Brown]

That's right.

[Ben Boland]

But it's as a drink.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Or like a, like a savory froyo bar. That gets you so weird. It's very weird.

[Ben Boland]

And we know also that Bloody Mary was a moniker for a queen in 16th century. She got this name. It's. It's not one of those ironic names.

[Noel Brown]

Nope.

[Ben Boland]

She got it because she really did not dig Protestants.

[Noel Brown]

She liked to murder them copiously, that's for sure.

[Ben Boland]

And so those are the three ways that we're. We're going to be looking at the idea of Bloody Mary. The same term that can describe three very different things. A queen, a childhood game, and a divisive beverage associated with drinking alcohol first thing in the morning.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, yeah. You love it or you hate it. I don't know too many people who are indifferent to it or will go for one, you know, every now and again. It's, it's something that people really dig. Yep. For sure. The Bloody Mary has been curing hangovers for over a century. And it was by one account concocted by a bartender for Fernand Petois in 1921 at Harry's Bar. I believe this is the official account. A favorite Paris hangout for a lot of the Midnight in Paris types. The American expat writers and raconteurs like F. Scott Fitzgerald and of course famous lush Ernest Hemingway. The recipe was first published in a collection of cocktail recipes called Harry's ABC, not ABCs of cocktails.

[Ben Boland]

And over the years, people played the game of telephone in the glass. Here they. They put their own spin on the recipe. Different regional styles of a bloody berry emerged. The. For instance, in Charleston, a Bloody Mary can typically come with cold shrimp and pickled okra.

[Noel Brown]

It's like a shrimp cocktail, which I do like. I do like a shrimp cocktail.

[Ben Boland]

Yeah, the okra is throwing me off.

[Noel Brown]

Not liking the okra. It's mucilaginous tastes. Snotty. That's an official name for what type of veg that is. But the drink staple ingredients remain the same as Led Zeppelin would put it. Salt and pepper, Tabasco sauce, Worcestershire sauce. Worcestershire, depending on if you're nasty. Lemon juice, vodka and tomato juice, of course, lemon juice.

[Ben Boland]

I didn't, I didn't clock that. I had.

[Noel Brown]

Not either.

[Ben Boland]

No.

[Noel Brown]

Did not either. But I could see that in the shrimp cocktail of it all. Adding a little. A little. A little. What's the word? A little zing. Despite the cocktail's long standing popularity, the origins, as I Sort of indicated up top, remain up for debate to some degree. As far as the name of it, at the very least.

[Ben Boland]

Right. The provenance, the origin of the name for the drink specifically. You're going to see. You're going to see a couple of theories, some that have more supporting evidence than others. The big three are this. There's speculation that our bar owner guy named the drink as a way to pay homage to an exotic dancer that he had a big, big crush on. It was a dancer named Mary who was either working at a bar in Chicago nicknamed Bucket of Blood or was a regular at that bar. So it became known as a. A dive bar in its day or a home to the criminal element. This is where all kinds of ne' er do wells of Chicago would congregate. It was situated right across from something called Bedbug Rule, which was the cheapest agglomeration of sex houses of ill repute.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, exactly. As a sex worker, sex positive neighborhood.

[Ben Boland]

Yeah. And they were the. They were known as the most affordable of all of Chicago. So Bedbug Row.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, I mean, I guess you could maybe liken that to what's referred to off in the neighborhood in Los Angeles called Skid Row usually. I don't know. I guess they're positive rows. Are there fancy rows? Is Cannery Roe a good row?

[Ben Boland]

No, Cannery Row's not a. Cannery Row.

[Noel Brown]

Is not a good row either. No, I don't think so either. So I guess maybe I can't think of any positive rows. Row row, row your boat. That's different. That's unrelated.

[Ben Boland]

Quick amendment here. Now, Cannery Row has been gentrified.

[Noel Brown]

Of course it has.

[Ben Boland]

And now it's. Now it's classy again. But in.

[Noel Brown]

Wasn't that a Steinbeck novel?

[Ben Boland]

Yeah. In 1945 he was writing about Cannery or he had a novel called Cannery Rose set in the Depression. And it's about people who live on a street where they're a bunch of fish canneries and about how life kind of stinks.

[Noel Brown]

Not good. Literally and figuratively. Savile Row. Thank you. Thank you.

[Ben Boland]

Chainsaw.

[Noel Brown]

That is the area in London where you can get a real nice shirt.

[Ben Boland]

Exactly.

[Noel Brown]

Apparently lots of tailors and fashiony bits along the row.

[Ben Boland]

It's great. If you're walking around and you're thinking, my wallet is too heavy.

[Noel Brown]

Exactly.

[Ben Boland]

Well, go over there. Bucket of Blood was a nickname for this notorious dive bar. It was formally known as the New Delaware. It was famous like the Yelp reviews, if such existed at the Time would say this place is, is famous for its bar fights. So much so that by the end of the night when they were cleaning up before they closed, the mop water would turn red with blood.

[Noel Brown]

Is that, is that how they made their pink lemonade?

[Ben Boland]

That's how. Yeah, that's. Maybe that's. I don't know. You gotta remember that's a callback.

[Noel Brown]

It was clown, clown. Rise of clown clown mop water. Essentially they're from ringing out their tights.

[Ben Boland]

Uh huh. Ringing out their tights and their clown costumes. Luckily, for better or worse, we should say this is not the only possible origin story of the drink. We've got two more, right?

[Noel Brown]

We do indeed. Rumor has it that our boy, the very tipsy Ernest Hemingway, had been dating a lady entertaining a lady named Mary just before his first marriage to Hadley Richardson. And as the story goes, according to pbs, Hemingway, who was a notorious drunk, allegedly didn't want to have alcohol on his breath when he next saw Lady Mary. So he asked for a drink to be mixed with juice.

[Ben Boland]

And because God forbid he just drink juice. God forbid he just not.

[Noel Brown]

Well, he's not going to forego that hair of the dog. I mean, it's also, you're never hungover if you're always drunk. That's, that's a philosophy that I think Hemingway would have adhered to. So while drinking Patois, newest concoction, Hemingway supposed to supposedly burst out with a swear cursing Bloody Mary for causing him all this trouble.

[Ben Boland]

Because. Okay, that's another issue.

[Noel Brown]

But this one seems like a little. What's the word?

[Ben Boland]

Apocryphal. Apocryphal.

[Noel Brown]

Thank you.

[Ben Boland]

Yeah, it just, it also doesn't paint Hemingway in the best of light.

[Noel Brown]

Not many stories do, to be fair.

[Ben Boland]

Right, right. The third idea is this. Wherever it comes from. Right. Or whatever inspired this guy to create this drink, it does catch on. You can now find it in all kinds of restaurants in Paris. And when it gets to Europe, the name is generally attributed to the English queen Mary Tudor because she had the moniker Bloody Mary to start with. So she comes before the drink, which isn't that surprising.

[Noel Brown]

Might we add really quickly before we move on to the Bloody Queen, that Harry still is around in Paris today. Much like. What is it? Lafitte's Blacksmith Shop in New Orleans, Another one of those historical dive bars. And the Bloody Mary is very much a specialty. They serve an estimated 12,000 of them every single year.

[Ben Boland]

That seems like a lot. You know, we're not experts, but that's, that's a Lot of tomato juice at the very least.

[Noel Brown]

It is, yeah. And I mean I know you can also buy like Bloody Mary mix, but I think if you're doing it proper, you would just use like a, you know, an A1, not an A1, what's it called, V8 kind of situation. Mix it up yourself. But let's jump in with the Queen. Mary Tudor, AKA Bloody Mary, England's first female ruler. Mary the first had a bit of a race for being one of history's biggest bullies, as Wren describes her biggest battle axes, which I really dig. She was brutal, she was unyielding and unforgiving. She ruled England with an iron fist. She revived some long retired laws against heresy in order to do a little bit of persecution against the Protestants who she did not enjoy living in her kingdom.

[Ben Boland]

Yeah. This is a non ideal situation. Mary is very ideologically motivated. Right. To restore Catholic control over England. And when we say heresy laws, we say persecution of these upstart Protestants. We're not talking about making them pay extra taxes or something like that. She spearheaded the death of over 300 people, burning them at the stake on charges of heresy. And this estimate is very rough. It doesn't include the people who died in prison before the government could set them ablaze. And it doesn't count the 800 Protestants who immediately had to flee the country. They may have died on the way. They. We don't know what happened to them.

[Noel Brown]

I mean, this is absolutely a genocide of sorts, wouldn't you say? I mean, in terms of a targeting of a particular type of people, a particular type of beliefs and essentially exterminating them. Yeah.

[Ben Boland]

If Mary's administration had their way, everybody who was Protestant would either convert or be murdered. This is very much a mass casualty event. Look, we're saying she earned the nickname Bloody Mary. There's a little bit of empathy we can exercise. I don't know if it's deserved in this case, but we do have to admit that Mary's childhood was. Was not great.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah.

[Ben Boland]

Pretty non ideal. It was lonely, it was bleak. Her father, Henry VIII we've discussed in the past, was a real pill.

[Noel Brown]

Yes, sir.

[Ben Boland]

So maybe that had an effect. Let's learn a little bit more about Mary's childhood. What do you say?

[Noel Brown]

Yeah. She was born in 1516, great year to King Henry VIII of England and his longest standing wife, Catherine of Aragon. Although Catherine was Henry's first w previously been married to his older brother Arthur, which is going to come into play in a little bit. Catherine was betrothed to Arthur by her parents King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella of Spain who we know didn't they send crystal ball Columbus?

[Ben Boland]

Yes yes Ferdinand Queen Isabella of Spain. They are the ones who sent Cristobal cologne across the ocean. Love it.

[Noel Brown]

And Colombe Even better.

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[Noel Brown]

Catherine, who was 15 when she married Arthur, left everything she knew from her previous life behind and became the queen of a foreign land. However, just five months into their marriage, Arthur passed away due to a mysterious illness. And Wren points out, we got a lot of sick boys in this episode.

[Ben Boland]

Yeah. To which I would respond, we've got a lot of sick people at this point.

[Noel Brown]

A lot of sick men, too, unfortunately.

[Ben Boland]

And we have to realize that there's this big romanticization of royalty, especially here in the West. But being at the tippy top of the social hierarchy did not necessarily a good life make. So this is an arranged marriage. Catherine doesn't really have a say in this matter.

[Noel Brown]

At all.

[Ben Boland]

Yeah, at all.

[Noel Brown]

And she's going to be taken to task for a thing that she didn't have a say in at all. A little bit down the line in a really gross abuse of power that just gets more abusive as time goes on. On.

[Ben Boland]

In fact, if you look at the larger context, she was kind of lucky she made it to 15 in the first place before being carted off against her will into this relationship. So now she's a teenage widow. Henry viII is only 10 years old.

[Noel Brown]

God, I bet he was insufferable at 10. Can you imagine?

[Ben Boland]

He's very King Joffrey. Yes, that's how I see it.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah.

[Ben Boland]

He's 10 years old when his brother passes away. And the boy's father, Henry VII resumes his role as king. But then, okay, we're throwing Roman numerals around, folks.

[Noel Brown]

Walk with us.

[Ben Boland]

Yeah. But then Henry vii, he dies six years later. And by the time he dies, Henry VIII is now of legal age, which means he can assume the throne. Henry VIII could have chosen another wife, but it is believed that his father's dying wish was that he continue this English alliance with Spain. So.

[Noel Brown]

And he wanted him to win one for the Gipper. There's no question about it. Ben, can I really quickly just backtrack? You made a King Joffrey comment, and I just want to say that young actor who played King Joffrey, great guy. Well, he's fantastic. Jack Gleeson.

[Ben Boland]

But he.

[Noel Brown]

I think because of all the backlash he got from playing such an insufferable, detestable character, he said he wasn't gonna act anymore. But did you notice he popped up in the new Sandman season doing Shakespeare? Yeah, he plays one of the fairies in the Midsummer Night's Dream, and he plays Puck. And he's fabulous.

[Ben Boland]

Oh, he's great.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, it's just. I was just glad to see him back because it's such a bummer when you feel as though a role that you've played, an absolutely fictional role, is following you around and people are being genuinely mean to you because of a pretend character you played on tv.

[Ben Boland]

Happened to Cersei, happened to the guys who played the Slytherin characters in Harry Potter. It's a rough one. You may ask yourself, why are the guys throwing around all these seven and eights interchangeably here? I thought we were talking about Bloody Mary. To talk about Bloody Mary, we have to talk about Catherine here. All this, as a result of all this stuff and these geopolitical shenanigans in 1509 to continue the alliance with Spain, Henry VIII does marry his sister in law. He is 17, she is 24.

[Noel Brown]

That's correct. And before Mary was born, the couple had a lot of trouble producing an heir. We know that's a big part of the story with Henry, so you'd think that her arrival would be a blessing. But unfortunately, she was not a male heir, which was a problem. While Mary's mother was super excited and overjoyed to have finally given birth to a healthy child, having gone through so much difficulty in. Henry was not stoked because at that stage, only a male heir could continue the line, the Tudor legacy. So despite Henry's indifference to Mary's entire existence, Mary's mother doted on her as much as she was Able to do. Her parents, Mary's mother, spearheaded the Spanish Inquisition to violently convert Muslims and Jews to Catholicism.

[Ben Boland]

Oh, and that's not Mary's mother, Catherine. That's Catherine's parents, who spearheaded the Spanish Inquisition.

[Noel Brown]

That's right. All I'm saying is correct. Ben, thank you for the. For the clarification. But this was something that she was very much exposed to that I think highly contributed to her, I don't know, mental state and her.

[Ben Boland]

Definitely her belief system because it's normalized. Right. It's kind of like how H.P. lovecraft grew up with a cat that had a very problematic name.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, my goodness. It's true. Yeah, it's a good story, but, yeah, it's not good.

[Ben Boland]

Thank goodness HP Lovecraft didn't have the legal ability to burn people at the stake. Yeah. But Mary's mom, Mary's mom, does love her and does what the best for her daughter. So even though it's an imperfect childhood, Mary achieves something that is pretty rare for the average woman of the time. She gets an awesome education. She also becomes incredibly Catholic. And we're not in any way casting aspersions on Catholicism or our Catholic friends today. We're just saying she went super hard on the paint.

[Noel Brown]

Yes, Indeed. So in 1520. But just to mention real quickly, at the time, you know, she wasn't a total outlier. You know, Catholicism was still relatively common in the area or in the country. In 1522, Mary's mother, Catherine, got a lady in waiting, a handmaiden, I believe. Is that sort of similar situation? A companion assistant of lower birth, but. But of also still of nobility, though I believe it wasn't just like, you know, a peasant. It was someone who was of lower nobility, but still not at the same echelon. So she was almost like an apprentice, kind of following her around, doing things for her, etc. This was, of course, Anne Boleyn.

[Ben Boland]

No relation. Yes.

[Noel Brown]

Different spelling.

[Ben Boland]

Right, right. She is. Anne is a regular presence in the royal court. And this means that she gets the attention of that lecherous old goat, Henry. Unlike so many other women that he had initiated affairs with, Anne said no. She said, I don't care how powerful you are. I'm not into it. And there's still a lot of, you know, we. We'll see how the history works out. But there's still a lot of speculation over whether this was like a long con.

[Noel Brown]

Linguistic. Right.

[Ben Boland]

Whether this is a chess game on her part. Like that old. There's this old chauvinistic saying From, I think, the 1940s. It was something like a man chases a woman till she catches him, which is a pity little turn of phrase.

[Noel Brown]

Is that where the term chaste comes from? Or is that chastity? That's chastity. That's.

[Ben Boland]

That's chastity.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah.

[Ben Boland]

Sorry, weird.

[Noel Brown]

It is a weird one. Yeah, you got it.

[Ben Boland]

So. So was she playing, you know, quote unquote, hard to get, or was she genuinely saying, no, I'm not into it? Also, bro, you've got your. You've got relationships going on, whatever. You kind of smell and you kind of. Yeah, because it's the 1500s. So Anne probably spelled too.

[Noel Brown]

Aren't we entering King Henry VIII sort of fat Elvis period at this point, too? Isn't he a bit of a monstrosity, you know, chowing down on. No fat shaming here, obviously, but he was a bit of a. Of a, you know, despicable creature who.

[Ben Boland]

Probably, you know, didn't I find him odious?

[Noel Brown]

Yes, odious. Thank you, Ben. And odious, mainly because of his deeds and the way he behaved towards women. But I do believe he was also a bit of a grotesque.

[Ben Boland]

Yeah, right. And because no one ever told him no, that's exactly. Maybe another king in a foreign land. Anyway, part of her playing hard to get was saying, look, the only way I'll sleep with you is if we do it honestly in the eyes of the Church. So Henry is. Yes. Anding all the way through this, he says, let's get married. Asterisk. I just picture Ann going, yeah, but, Henry, you're already married. And he goes, oh, yeah, asterisk. There's a slight thing with that. We are Catholic as well, and the Catholics won't let us get divorced. So I'm going to go to the Church and I'm going to ask for the marriage to be annulled. Because of incest. Because she had first been married to my brother a decade before we hitched up. And the Pope listens to this like a skeptical venture capitalist on Shark Tank, right? He's got his fingers steepled. Or he's like Simon Cowell watching an audition on whatever that show was, America's Got Talent. And after Henry does this performance and the incest thing is technically true, the Pope looks around and says, nah, dog, not good enough. Not good enough. He won't grant the annulment. And this is what leads Henry VIII to sever ties with the Catholic Church and to found the Church of England in the ultimate.

[Noel Brown]

I'm taking my toys and going Home.

[Ben Boland]

Move because of this one hookup that he really wanted.

[Noel Brown]

I know that's crazy. That's really wild. So under the new Protestant regime, Henry was able to divorce Catherine and Mary Anne. Anne bore Henry another child, but surprise, surprise, as you may well know, was not a male heir. Yet again, this was Elizabeth, who would go on to do some things in her own right. This is from a great BBC history article on this whole sordid affair. Henry's allegations of incest effectively bastardized Mary. Yeah, yeah. Just disowned entirely. And nothing is worse in these days than being like an unwed mother or like a bastard. As we know again from Game of Thrones, that term is thrown around as quite a slanderous Slurpee.

[Ben Boland]

And even if you're at the top, again, of the social hierarchy, if you are royalty and there are legitimate claims of illegitimacy, this is very dangerous. Your life is still going to stink. Any political rival is going to always hammer that through when they want to get over on you. Still, Mary is, as we said, she is a staunch Catholic. After Anne Boleyn gives birth to Elizabeth, which we just mentioned, Mary wants to see her parents, you know, like any other kid, but she is not allowed to talk to her parents. And in this post Elizabeth world, you know how sibling rivalry always gets intense. Imagine how much you would hate your little sister if the moment she's born, you no longer get to be called a princess. That's not a good look. That's just mean parenting there.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, it truly is. Pitting them against each other. So for years, Mary lived in her infant sister's quarters. Like, I guess that's almost like Harry Potter living under the stairs a little bit. It's not the most posh of circumstances. It's, you know, she's playing second fiddle, living in her sister's shadow, essentially with very little acknowledgement from anyone. You know, relegated to a life of solitary, I don't know, stewing, frankly.

[Ben Boland]

Absolutely. I also want to take a second real quick. And as I know, we've got a lot of fans of musicals in the audience. We share that enthusiasm. There is a great musical comedy called Six. Yeah, yeah. The lives of the six wives of Henry viii. And it's pretty neat. If you want a quick sample of it, check out their Tit he Desk concert. It is historically based. I. It's a tangent, but it's. It's worth mentioning because it's a. It's a sick musical.

[Noel Brown]

Historically based and historically based.

[Ben Boland]

There we go.

[Noel Brown]

That's perfect.

[Ben Boland]

That review should be on the pamphlet. I like it. So, okay, spoiler alert. You know, the Titanic sinks. Abe Lincoln has a bad time at the play. Mary has a very lonely, as you said, Harry Potter under the stairs existence. And Anne Boleyn doesn't have the best relationship with Henry. She is beheaded in 1536 on charges of treason. Or more likely, he got tired of her and Henry moves on to Jane Seymour. Jane Seymour is the opposite of Anne Boleyn in every way, at least according to historians. She's not considered. She's considered kind of plain on the inside and the outside.

[Noel Brown]

Maybe not the same level. And again, we're not trying to character assassinate a dead historical figure too much, but it did feel like Belen had a bit of a long game going on.

[Ben Boland]

Yeah, a bit of a calculation there.

[Noel Brown]

And Jane is a lot more good natured and, you know, considered to be a little bit more, like you said, Ben, a little bit more vanilla. And she also had sympathies for Mary because of her own background.

[Ben Boland]

Yeah. And also because Jane Seymour was a decent person.

[Noel Brown]

That's right.

[Ben Boland]

You don't want to see a kid in unnecessary and traumatic situations. And she is. Look, Jane Seymour seems kind of like a normal person in a way. She's very sweet. She has a good heart to her. She goes to her husband Henry and says, come on, man, this is your daughter. Get her back into the royal court. And Mary is. She's got a lot going on here because remember, she's still very Catholic. This entire time, her dad made up a church so he could get divorced. She ultimately says, I am going to let this one go because I love my dad and I want to have a relationship with him. I don't agree with him spiritually. I'm not going to denounce Catholicism, but I think you know what you did, Pops.

[Noel Brown]

So there's still going to be some tension there. Not going to hold out hope for that apology. Don't think it ever came.

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[Noel Brown]

So Jane finally gave Henry what he'd been dreaming of, which was a Male heir. And unfortunately that led to Jane's passing when she died of childbirth.

[Ben Boland]

Not uncommon thing at the time.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, Fever took her TW 12 days after he was born. And if I'm not mistaken too, this, this male heir, like was very frail and like had hemophilia and it was like super not particularly effective. Right. Didn't he die at a young age as well?

[Ben Boland]

Yeah, let's see. Henry VIII had a, had a son named Henry, Duke of Cornwall, but that poor kid died within weeks of being born. And then the kid that Henry has with Jane is Edward vi.

[Noel Brown]

And if I'm not mistaken, Ben, this boy was quite feeble and considered a bit of a weakling. And that's Edward vi. He did, however, prove to be quite bloodthirsty and not a great dude. And he did die before he was able to wreak too much havoc on the country. Geez.

[Ben Boland]

Yeah. And look, it's an unhappy Brady Bunch we're describing. Mary is very, very sad to lose Jane Seymour because Jane Seymour is kind of the closest thing to a maternal figure that she has in her life. At this point, all of this has happened. Mary is just now turning 21 years old. She's second in line to the throne behind her much younger brother Edward, who we just mentioned. Edward gets declared King of England after Henry VIII dies, even though Edward is a literal boy, which sounds like a line from I think you should leave.

[Noel Brown]

Yes, a literal boy. Or it's also like one of an insult that Daniel Plainview would hurl at somebody, you literal boy.

[Ben Boland]

That's good. Let's keep that one. I like it. So. So this is not unprecedented in the story of royalty. What this means is there will be a brain trust of adults. There will be a group of folks who are regents and the kid ruler is a figurehead or a mascot until they attain their majority and become considered an adult themselves. So the real power at this time is a guy named the Duke of Northumberland. And this dude is super duper duper Protestant. So another bad blow for the super duper duper Catholic Mary. As you said, Noel, Edward never in the best of health. This poor kid. We believe he died from tuberculosis at the age of 15. And while he is on his deathbed, this Duke of Northumberland gets over to this dying child, this 15 year old, and says, look man, before you go, I need you to officially make your older sister Mary a bastard again. Re.

[Noel Brown]

Bastardize.

[Ben Boland]

Re Bastardize her, my boy, my lad. Because, my lad.

[Noel Brown]

Because, oh no, my lad.

[Ben Boland]

Sorry if you don't. His Logic here is if you don't make it impossible for her to become the ruler of England, then she is going to turn it back into a Catholic nation.

[Noel Brown]

Well, he wasn't. He weren't wrong. We've been exercising a lot of empathy for Mary, but let's not forget where we started with Bloody Mary. That's where we're getting.

[Ben Boland]

Yeah, good call. That's why we put that stuff up at the front. This is why Northumberland's 17 year old daughter in law becomes Queen. Lady Jane Grey. And this is a. There's a real out of the blue plot twist for the public. A lot of people loved Catherine. She was the Princess Diana of her time.

[Noel Brown]

Absolutely.

[Ben Boland]

People's princess.

[Noel Brown]

Yep.

[Ben Boland]

Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

Nailed it.

[Ben Boland]

Lady Jane Grey's reign doesn't last very long. No.

[Noel Brown]

Within nine days, Mary usurped Jane, the usurper for the crown. And within a few months, Mary beheaded Jane for surprise, surprise, treason. The most open ended, vague death sentence in history, I would argue.

[Ben Boland]

Yeah. And the fact that she immediately went to the nuclear option. Death on moment one.

[Noel Brown]

Yep.

[Ben Boland]

Yeah, that's a precedent.

[Noel Brown]

And she'd been stewing, dude, she'd been stewing.

[Ben Boland]

She'd been thinking a lot. Her infant sisters making a list, you know, checking them twice. Yeah. She came here to chew gum and kill Protestants and guess what? She didn't know what gum was.

[Noel Brown]

Gum hadn't been invented yet. Yeah. Mary, despite being a bit of a pill herself, wanted nothing more than to be a mother so much that she experienced a few of something that I think might be worth an exploration unto itself. Phantom pregnancies. Pseudo syesis is the term during which her abdomen and breasts would swell as though she were pregnant. This is a new one to me, Ben. I don't think I remember this from history class.

[Ben Boland]

Yeah, It's a medical condition that can occur, so it's not. It is a physiological change. Right. You can see it manifested. I think it'd be. Yeah, it'd be interesting. Interesting to do an episode on this. I think you're onto something.

[Noel Brown]

Well, it is uncommon.

[Ben Boland]

Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

It's very. And often attributed directly to. To this monarch.

[Ben Boland]

Yeah. In the end, as we all know, Mary ends up marrying a Catholic. Of course. Philip too, from Spain. She and Philip are both kind of unpopular with their respective crowds. They never have issue or they never have a child. Issue is the fancy way you say child when we're talking nobility. And the reason they didn't have a kid is because their marriage was not romantic. Philip was not digging Mary. He thought she was Unattractive. He spent as much time as he could away from her. So she, Mary unfortunately dies in 1558, most likely due to flu or stomach cancer, and her younger sister Elizabeth takes the throne.

[Noel Brown]

Yep. Yeah. And immediately we enter the Elizabethan era. On day one, it's like it's the 80s now. And I wanna just really quickly walk back something I said earlier. Phantom pregnancy or pseudo csis. It's not. When I say it was often attributed to Mary, I just mean that she was probably one of the most famous people to have suffered from this condition. So when you look it up, you're gonna see stories about Bloody Mar. I'm not saying this is some sort of imagined condition. It is very much rare and something that happens to some women for sure.

[Ben Boland]

And that's just because that's the most famous historical figure with that case. That's the example you'll see in a textbook. That's right, yeah. There's another big switcheroo. This is a very weird time to be a peasant invested in politics because now that Elizabeth is ascending to the throne, we've already switched back and forth from being Catholic to being Protestant. We started a whole new church. Elizabeth switches everything back. So now we're going back to the Church of England. We're done with those Catholic reforms from Bloody Mary and we're ushering in a new age of Protestant England. And this also begins the golden age of mercantilism.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah, the C of E, as they often call it, the Church of England. Ben, I think we need to deliver on a bit of a promise that we did. We made at the top. We're not quite in two parter territory, but we're gonna make this one a little bit longer than usual. We're gonna talk a bit about the third aspect of Bloody Mary, the urban legend of it all. So why don't we set the scene? I think we may have all been there again for me and you. I think our age, it was probably more Candyman kind of replaced Bloody Mary because of where that movie kind of loomed large in the zeitgeist of our youth. So we're in middle school, it's a Friday night in late winter, and we're maybe having a slumber party. We're not old enough to drive yet, so at this point we're getting dropped off by mom and dad. There's nothing left to watch on TV except for infomercials. What was it? The Showtime Ron Pope heel. Remember those? Yeah. I don't know about the George Lopez show. That was Apparently Ren's touch point there, but I think she's a little younger than we are. So we resign ourselves to sleep. And one friend suggests that we play.

[Ben Boland]

A spooky game because we don't have phones.

[Noel Brown]

Light as a feather, stiff as a board, maybe.

[Ben Boland]

Right, right. Or. Or a Ouija board you might play with maybe. Anyway. Yeah. So the rules are as follows. The participant enters a darkened room with a lit candle. He or she looks into a mirror while chanting Bloody Mary's name or a phrase a specific number of times. If the ritual is performed correctly, Bloody Mary might appear either in the mirror or reach out of the mirror and scratch her face or be released from the afterlife to haunt him or her forever. Forever.

[Noel Brown]

Forever. Yeah. And obviously, you know, Clive Barker was very familiar with this urban legend when he created the Candyman mythos and took it to the next level with the hook handy. Dude reaching out and slaughtering you when you say his name. I think the first Candyman movie. Movie is pretty good. And the remake was interesting.

[Ben Boland]

The remake's interesting. It goes a little more anti hero.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah. And it's not perfect, but I did think it was an interesting attempt. And the first one is. Is pretty cool, actually.

[Ben Boland]

Still, I was very frightened by the first. I think it holds up. I also want us to shout out this. That quotation of. Of the rough rules that comes from our alma matter, how stuff works. So shout out to Deborah Ronco of writing that. And you know, the game might be called Candyman or Bloody Mary, but if you travel around the world, you'll see variations. There are all kinds of phrases people might say, and it's usually naming some kind of boogeyman esque figure. But it would be funny to go. To make a kid go in there and just say a silly phrase. Like you have to go in and you have to say knickerbocker wibbley wobbledye three times and then a creepy clown.

[Noel Brown]

Pops out and hits you over the head with a squeaky hammer or what.

[Ben Boland]

What is a knickerbocker? That's the old.

[Noel Brown]

It's a type of pant.

[Ben Boland]

It is a pant. I know it's a short type of people I want to say, maybe so.

[Noel Brown]

And it's. Well, it's definitely a famous hotel in New York for sure, but I guess I just know it as the pant and the. The hotel. There are variations to this, as you mentioned, Ben, you could alternatively, if you don't want to go with wibbledy wobbledy woo or knickerbocker you could say, let's go dark with it, Right. I killed your baby. Bloody Mary. What?

[Ben Boland]

Yeah, because you have to. You have to poke the bear a little bit here. Or sometimes the mirror would drip blood. Sometimes this is very urban legend, scary stories to tell in the dark kind of style. Sometimes the. The kid who Dares Bloody Mary comes out of, you know, the. The locked bathroom with their hair all white. Maybe they're mute. The legends of this or the origin of this strange pastime is also kind of ambiguous. It's kind of murky. There's a really interesting bit of research that Wren found, arguing that this is symbolically or thematically related to a kid's or an adolescent's first experience with menstruation.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah. And there's a folklorist who wrote a book called Bloody Mary in the A Ritual Reflection of Prepubescent Anxiety. Alan Dundas, who had this to say about it. Bloody Mary ritual may not be a significantly accurate portrayal of menstruation, but it does represent an anticipatory image of a forthcoming major event in the individual female's life cycle.

[Ben Boland]

And there's a second theory that says Bloody Mary could be the spirit of more than one notoriously cruel member of the nobility. Queen Mary Tudor or Countess Elizabeth Bathory. I used to be fascinated with her, and I think there's a really strong argument that history did her wrong.

[Noel Brown]

Oh, really?

[Ben Boland]

Yeah.

[Noel Brown]

I don't know about that, Ben. I always. Maybe that's just because I, you know, just read the headlines, but I always associated her with being a bloodthirsty individual who would murder female servants so that she could bathe in their blood in order to stay youthful forever. What's the alternate spin on her story?

[Ben Boland]

Well, this happens a lot. The alternate spin is that the accusations against her were either jimmied up or goosed, as we've been saying lately.

[Noel Brown]

Goose suit. Yeah.

[Ben Boland]

Yeah. The idea being that someone wanted to remove a powerful person from power. She was accused, along with four servants, of torturing and killing hundreds of girls and women from, I think, a period of decades from 1590 to 1610.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah. So, if true, quite the serial killer.

[Ben Boland]

Very much a Bloody Mary. But why wouldn't you call her Bloody Beth?

[Noel Brown]

No, no, no, it's a good question. Remember that I killed your baby thing from earlier? You may have already put this together. Astute, ridiculous historians. But that may well have been a reference to Bloody Mary, Mary Tudor, and her unfulfilled desire to become a mother.

[Ben Boland]

Yeah, a real taunt.

[Noel Brown]

A real taunt to someone like that.

[Ben Boland]

Right. And we know this is now a staple of American folklore. And you can see her reference or the idea of this supernatural creature referenced in everything from Beetlejuice to the Ring, the adaptation of Ringu, the Japanese film, and to, as previously mentioned, Candyman. But if we bring it all back around and we're back at Harry's.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah. For a little hair the dog.

[Ben Boland]

Right. Yeah. They didn't just popularize the Bloody Mary in their neck of the global woods. They've been credited with inventing the sidecar, the Blue Lagoon and the White Lady.

[Noel Brown]

I think I know the sidecar.

[Ben Boland]

I don't know the other two.

[Noel Brown]

Yeah. The sidecar is like, I believe a gin cock. Oh, look at this. You can go to harrysbar.com how helpful. And then it's got a lot of really interesting historical bits on it and a list of their specialty cocktails. The Boulevardier, the Bloody Mary, the Sidecar, which is cognac, triple sec and lemon juice. I do love a French 75, champagne, gin, lemon juice, and a few drops of absinthe. I do love classic cocktails. I don't drink a ton anymore, but when I do, I really, when I go to a fancy place, I am more disposed to enjoy one really, really tasty classic cocktail.

[Ben Boland]

Boulevardier. Interesting. Well, we hope you found this interesting as well, folks. This was a cool exploration that took us in unexpected places. And shout out to anybody who is sipping a bloody berry as you tuned in. We can't wait for you to join us when we delve into some more unexpected histories History spoiler with a certain dark night later in the week. Meantime, big thanks to our producer, Max Williams. Big thanks to our guest producer, Dylan the Chainsaw Fagan.

[Noel Brown]

Huge thanks to Christopher Haotis and Eve Jeffcoats, both here in spirit. Jonathan Strickland the quizzer, AJ Bahamas Jacobs the puzzler.

[Ben Boland]

And big, big shout out to our rude dudes over at Ridiculous Prime. If you dig us, you'll dig them. And as our pal Dylan always says, speaking of digging, let's dig up the rutabagas. Let's do it.

[Noel Brown]

We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

[Ben Boland]

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[Danielle Robay]

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