Who was the real John Henry?

Summary

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Ridiculous History – "Who was the real John Henry?"

Podcast: Ridiculous History (iHeartPodcasts)
Hosts: Ben Bowlin & Noel Brown
Date: July 30, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of Ridiculous History dives deep into the legend and possible reality behind the iconic American folk hero John Henry—the "steel-driving man." Hosts Ben and Noel use the enduring story as a lens to discuss labor, automation, the challenges of historical research, and the significance of American folklore, touching on everything from 19th-century industrialization to contemporary concerns about AI and technology replacing human workers.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why John Henry? The Folklore and Its Modern Relevance

• The story of John Henry, popular in American folk ballads and children's lore, is revisited, especially as anxieties grow about AI and automation replacing human labor.

• Quote:

  "It's a story that only grows more relevant as Americans and the world overall grow increasingly concerned about the implications and consequences of LLMs, AI and automation."
  – Ben (03:41)

• They introduce the ballad that immortalized John Henry (“When John Henry was a little baby boy / You could hold him in the palm of your hand... Gonna be a steel driving man” [04:26]).

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2. What is a Steel Driver? The Legendary Feat

• A "steel driver" worked in teams on railroad tunnels: one wielded a hammer, the other—a shaker—held and rotated the chisel.
• The legend: John Henry, former slave turned rail worker, challenges a new steam-powered drill in a tunnel-digging contest.
• John Henry wins, drilling two 7-foot holes to the machine's one 9-foot hole, but dies from the exertion—a story about human strength and the cost of progress.
• Quote:

  "After 35 minutes of hand to steam drill competition, John Henry is victorious... And then they realize that John himself has fallen down. A blood vessel burst in his brain. The hero of the rail company has beaten the machine, but lost his life in doing so."
  – Ben (13:09)

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3. Multiple Legends, Multiple Morals

• Various versions: sometimes John Henry drives tunnel supports, sometimes track spikes. Sometimes he’s paired with a shaker, sometimes he’s a solo hero.
• Story endures as both a celebration of human perseverance and a cautionary tale about the costs of industrialization and capitalism.
• Quote:

  "It tells the tale of American perseverance... but then it also tells the tale of the cruelty of capitalism. The kinds of things American folk singer Woody Guthrie... would have sung."
  – Noel (16:28)

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4. Is Any of This True? The Search for the Real John Henry

• The search for a real John Henry is clouded by common names and folklore’s game of “telephone.”

Early Research – Guy Benton Johnson (1920s)

• Johnson, a sociologist, interviews locals in West Virginia. Neil Miller, a water-boy at Big Bend Tunnel, claims first-hand witness to a contest just like the legend.
• However, the C&O Railroad's chief engineer refutes the use of steam drills at Big Bend; records were destroyed in a fire, making verification difficult.
• Quote:

  "No steam drills were used in the construction of Big Bend. Unfortunately. Johns wasn't able to provide a whole lot more information. All the records from that period, he said, burned up in a fire. Convenient, I was about to say..."
  – Noel (27:23)

Modern Research – Scott Reynolds Nelson (2006)

• Historian Nelson’s Steel Drivin’ Man uncovers penitentiary records of a John Henry, laboring as a convict for the railroads near the Lewis Tunnel (about 40 miles from Big Bend).
• Points out the abusive “Black Codes” targeting freed Black men post–Civil War, which funneled many into convict leasing—virtually re-enslaving them for state and private industry.
• Quote:

  "Their primary aim was to put as many newly freed African American people into the prison system as possible... made it a crime for black people to seem too cheerful about the end of slavery."
  – Ben (30:44)

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5. Technology, Labor Exploitation & the Symbolic John Henry

• Steam drills were new and unreliable; they kicked up dust (causing silicosis), jammed frequently, and required human intervention—paralleling the way AI and automation often still need “human in the loop.”
• The fatal weakness in the legend: John Henry may not represent a single man, but countless anonymous Black laborers exploited in brutal conditions during the construction of America’s railways.
• Quote:

  "Seems like John Henry was... less likely a single person than he was like, you know, an amalgamation of different people and kind of meant to be almost like a symbol..."
  – Noel (41:28)

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6. Death, Disease, and the Legacy

• The plausible fate of the real John Henry: not death by aneurysm from superhuman effort, but by silicosis or other occupational diseases, lost to unmarked graves and forgotten by official history.
• Ballad verses about being buried "near the White House in the sand" likely refer to burial behind the Virginia State Penitentiary’s “White House,” not D.C.
  • Recent research found many unmarked graves at this prison.
• Quote:

  "Nelson instead believes that his Henry... died of a terrible respiratory condition called silicosis."
  – Ben (42:28)

• And:

  "The story of John Henry has been with our nation through countless labor movements, power to the people, through the struggle for civil rights. And now, of course, it returns anew, revivified in the great debate about AI and automation."
  – Ben (44:37)

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On the Fate of the Legend:

  "As we’ll see, there’s a mystery afoot. Or if you prefer, a mystery on the rails."
  – Ben (04:50)

• On Historical Frustration:

  "The sheer popularity of this folktale makes the research difficult. And I gotta tell you guys, also the fact that his name is like John Henry instead of John Wickenstadtborough or something makes it tougher..."
  – Ben (22:34)

• On Technology Parallels:

  "...the steam drills...were not perfect. They threw up all kinds of dust...so you’d have to have a team of humans to come in either to fix it or to clean it. Right."
  – Ben (38:38)

• On Labor Exploitation:

  "This willy nilly deployment of machine learning large language models... But then they still require people to...make sure they don't blow up the world...right, right, exactly. Almost more trouble than it’s worth because...it isn’t ready. Right. It's not there yet."
  – Noel (39:29)

• On John Henry as Myth:

  "He was less likely a single person than...an amalgamation of different people and kind of meant to be almost like a symbol rather than historical figures."
  – Noel (41:28)

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Segment Timestamps

• Introduction, Train Enthusiasm, Model Trains: 00:00 – 02:44
• Introduction of John Henry, Ballad Sample: 03:13 – 04:46
• Legend of John Henry Retold: 07:29 – 14:52
• Morality, Versions, Cultural Meaning: 14:52 – 17:48
• Seeking a Real John Henry: 22:11 – 32:21
  • Guy Benton Johnson’s 1920s Research: 24:07 – 28:04
  • Scott Reynolds Nelson’s 2006 Research: 28:41 – 32:21
• Discussion of Black Codes, Prison Labor: 29:56 – 32:21
• Nelson’s Conclusions, Symbolism: 37:08 – 44:37
• Wrap Up & Closing Remarks: 44:37 – 45:27

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Final Thoughts

• The story of John Henry is both a moving parable of human spirit and a window into the harsh realities of American labor history, especially for Black Americans.
• Despite knowing some facts—about convict labor, tunnel construction, and steam technology—the “real” John Henry remains ambiguous. He is, as Noel notes, more a “symbol” than a documented single man.
• The legend endures because it adapts: from industrialization to AI—wherever humans fear being replaced by machines, John Henry’s hammer still rings in the collective imagination.

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Additional Reading

• Steel Drivin’ Man: John Henry, the Untold Story of an American Legend by Scott Reynolds Nelson

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For more folklore, history, and intriguing rabbit holes, subscribe to Ridiculous History wherever you get your podcasts!

Transcript

[Ben]

Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartradio. Welcome back to the show, fellow ridiculous historians. Choo choo. Thank you as always so much for tuning in. Let's look for super producer, Mr. Max Williams. Chugga chugga, choo choo. Oh, that's a high energy locomotive, guys.

[Noel]

Ben, that's you. I'm Noel. I. I do dig trains. I don't know what it is, if there's something in the mind of the young boy that just makes you predisposed to digging machines. But I've mentioned multiple times, Ben, as I've gotten a little older, I've even further kind of gone down the rabbit hole of engineering and clockwork stuff. I mean, I think you and I are both a little bit into watches and all of that stuff these days, but yeah, I get it, man. Trains, locomotives, all the moving parts, the engineering of it all. It's fascinating to me.

[Ben]

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. That's no brown. I've been bulletin.

[C]

We're.

[Ben]

We've got to mention one thing at the top. And Max, I don't want to put you on the spot too much.

[Noel]

Max hates James.

[Ben]

But not too long ago, Max Williams, you and I got involved in some pretty cool conversations about model training, which your paterfamilias is a big fan of.

[Noel]

Oh yeah, he's a model train collector.

[Max Williams]

He loves it.

[Noel]

By the way, that means father, right?

[Ben]

Yes.

[Noel]

Cool, cool, cool.

[Ben]

Or like patriarchal father.

[Noel]

We had a episode back in 2024, March 2024, called Back to the Ch. I'm not going to try this one. Vent. We had an episode about model trains. Back to the Choo Choo.

[Max Williams]

Yeah.

[Noel]

You know who else is really into model trains? Two people. Sebastian Bach from Skid Row. There is an episode of TR Trailer Park Boys where he is featured and Neil Young. But I also just found out something else interesting about Sebastian Bach. He briefly was in a Broadway production of Jesus Christ Superstar and he got fired because he was horrible. He like, he just did the fricking Skid Row scream.

[Ben]

I thought you were gonna say he just kept going to his trailer to play with. Train.

[Noel]

Train trailer. Yeah. No, apparently you can find clips of it if you want. I was blissfully unaware of this. And it is fascinating because looks like he is in a very different production than the rest of the cast. Let's just leave it there.

[Ben]

Another thing that a lot of us are blissfully unaware of in American society today is this halcyon era of tall tales larger than life. American heroes from folklore. And previously. Guys, remember we did A deep dive into a heartwarming alcohol and thoroughly eccentric dude called Johnny Appleseed or John Chapman.

[Noel]

And I think we mentioned in that episode the Disney shorts that featured a lot of these folks. And there actually was a John Henry one that came a good bit later. The Johnny Appleseed one is quite a bit older, but I believe the Walt Disney Animation Studio released a short film detailing the myth, the urban legend, the folkloric tale of John. John Henry, the steel driving man, back in 2000.

[Ben]

That is correct. And today we are tackling another story. This is important to me. I think it's important to all of us in the west especially. It's a story that only grows more relevant as Americans and the world overall grow increasingly concerned about the implications and consequences of LLMs, AI and automation. It's the legend of John Henry, most famous to a lot of grade school kids for a ballad and Noel, if we're okay with it, I'd love to share just a snippet of a version of this song.

[Noel]

Oh, surely it's in the public domain at this point. Let's do it.

[Ben]

When John Henry was a little baby boy?

[Noel]

You could hold him in the palm of your hand? He gave along and lonesome pride. Gonna be a steel driving man. Lord, no.

[Ben]

Gonna be a steel driving man.

[Noel]

What does it mean to be a steel driving man? Ben, what does it mean?

[Ben]

Ah, yes, yes, this is a great question, which. That's one of the questions we can solve in today's episode, Noel. But we may not be able to solve all of the questions about the legend of John Henry. As we'll see. There's a mystery afoot. Or if you prefer fellow ridiculous historians, a mystery on the rails. Let's say we start with the legend.

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[Noel]

I certainly heard this tale when I was a youth in primary school. Though it may be something that has been, you know, moved away from a little bit in modern times. Not 100% sure, couldn't say. But it seems like that's entirely likely. Cause I don't think that a lot of the young generation know much about John Henry the steel driving man. So according to the tale, he was born a slave in 1840. It was freed after the Civil War. John then found work as a steel driver for the Chesapeake and Ohio Railroad Company. So I believe, Ben, a steel driver is someone that hammers the kind of, I guess you could call them support steels, sort of railroad ties right into solid rock. Well, they're not the same as the ties. These are more for, like, building out the tunnels that the trains would go into. So these would be like having to hammer steel into the solid rock to help build the supports for the railroads, for, you know, for hollowing out these tunnels and mountains.

[Ben]

Yeah, you hollow out the tunnels by hammering into the rock, creating a cavity wherein explosives of some sort are inserted, which blows up more space right into whatever you're trying to delve through. And then you move forward a little bit at a time in these harsh weather conditions. And then you blow it up again. And then you do it again and again ad nauseam until you get through the mountain. And our buddy John Henry is widely renowned, according to the legend, as the strongest, most efficient, best gosh darn steel driver in all the area. We do have to mention that in real life, steel driving at this time in the 1800s, you're working in two man teams, like how a sniper has a spotter. If you're a steel driver, you've got the hammer, but you've got a second guy called the shaker. And they are. I feel like they don't get enough praise because they have to crouch pretty close to the hole with a little chisel and turn the drill after each time the hammer blows. So it's like if you have ever. Folks, if you've ever used hammers and carpentry or something like that, you know, you have to have one hand holding the nail or a hair comb if you want to do a smart trick.

[H]

And then you have to.

[Noel]

That's how you end up banging your thumb if you're not careful. Right?

[Ben]

Right. So think of each member of the team as one of the hands. Right. John Henry is the hand with the hammer. The shaker is the hand kind of holding the nail. For our purposes, it's huge work. The railroad that you mentioned there, the CNO is moving along, choo choo and along. But they have a big problem ahead. According to the legend, they have a mountain in West Virginia called the Big Bend Mountain. And it's too large for them to go around, so the only way out is through. They have to blast the tunnel into something like one and a fourth miles of solid rock.

[Noel]

Well, and as you can imagine, this was dangerous work. This one in particular led to significant number of fatalities. Nearly 1,000 men died over the three years it took to complete the project. John Henry, however, was resilient AF and survived all the while swinging a 14 pound hammer. He apparently could accomplish around 10 to 12ft of pounding each day on his own. And Ben, something was kind of ringing a bell and I was like, why am I thinking of Shaquille o' Neal here? And it is because he played the character Steel in the movie version of the Marvel character Steel, whose name as a civilian was John Henry Steel. Not meant to be John Henry himself, but inspired by him. And he was meant to be like, I believe, like a really talented weapons smith and designer.

[Ben]

Oh, that's crazy. I always Thought that, man. I always thought steel was a reference to DC comics.

[Noel]

Of course it is. Dc, yeah. Okay, yeah, same. Same character, but yeah, dc.

[Ben]

And it's clearly like, that's a great point because it shows us how resilient this myth is even in the modern day. So according to the legend onto stage. As they're hammering through this mountain, Stroll's an unidentified salesman. And he's just like the gu selling monorails to Springfield from that legendary Simpsons episode. He's a slick cat, his hair's pushed back, and he says, I've got a solution. I've got an automated steam powered drill that can outperform any living man.

[Noel]

Yikes. Not good news for the steel driving men of the world. This is quite controversial. So there is a contest of sorts is organized. John Henry, being the top, you know, steel driver in the human race, it would seem, at least in the region, was to be pitted against this device, this drill. Man versus machine. The foreman would run the drill and John Henry, dual wielding two 20 pound hammers, would try to compete with it on his own and seeing who would come out on top.

[Ben]

Yeah, he tried to solo it. Just like in a video game.

[Noel]

Solo doo.

[Ben]

Yeah. Yeah. You'll see that. His second, the shaker, gets increasingly ignored in the legend. After 35 minutes of hand to steam drill competition, John Henry is victorious. He has drilled two 7 foot holes for a total of 14ft. This newfangled drill, by contrast, only makes one 9 foot hole. And you know, like the subreddit, everybody clapped, everybody cheers. They say, oh, John, you're the best. Oh my God. Oh, kalu kalei. Joyous day. And then they realize that John himself has fallen down. A blood vessel burst in his brain. The hero of the rail company has beaten the machine, but lost his life in doing so well.

[Noel]

And it's a teachable moment on both sides because on the one hand. Yeah. Did he do a better job? Yes. But could he do it that way forever like the machine? No.

[Ben]

Right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's their parable. And that's just one version of the story, obviously, depending on where you hear it. Sometimes the hammers have a different weight. I think in the ballad he is attributed a nine pound hammer, but other times it's 14 or 12 or even 20. The issue is that the story changes over time. Other iterations come later. And they will claim John Henry is not helping blow up these tunnels. Instead, he's one of the guys who goes along the railway lines and drives spikes.

[Noel]

Right. That's why I was A little confused. I think that's sort of the version of the story that I always heard. And I'm picturing John Henry and driving the spikes along the railroad, but there are multiple versions. In this particular version, his mechanical opponent is an automated rail fastening machine. But at the end of the day, the results and the moral of the story, I guess, is the same. So whatever you want to call it, a legend, a myth, a bit of folklore, it's persevered and continued to take on new meaning in the face of further automation. Picture the story of the Luddites throwing printing presses off of cliffs and things like that. We do have historical examples of human beings fighting back against their mechanized replacements.

[Ben]

Yeah, that's the thing. Humanity, as you're saying, has always had a very complicated relationship with innovation, technology, automation. And John Henry speaks to that or the story at least. He's been the subject of novels. The United States Postal Service put out a postage stamp in his honor. He's been in animated films like the Disney one you mentioned at the top and some of the adaptations of the ballad we played to to start this episode. Above all, we have to remember that John Henry as a song is the single most well known and most often recorded folk song of all of Americana. Isn't that nuts?

[Noel]

And it makes sense because it does kind of have this dual meaning in that it tells the tale of American perseverance and building the railroads and all of that, but then it also tells the tale of the cruelty of capitalism. The kinds of things American folk singer Woody Guthrie, whose guitar famously bore the words, this machine kills fascists. Yeah, that would have sung. So it really does. It has that nostalgia quality, but it also has that painful twist of, you know, the lie of the American dream in many ways, or at least the stilted truth of it.

[Ben]

Yeah, yeah. It always reminds me of a later band called Rage against the Machine, which encapsulates a lot of the same lessons, the morals, the parables. So we can all easily understand, especially in these troubled times, why so many people identify with the heroic character of John Henry here. But today's question is how much of that story is true? And no Max. Fellow ridiculous historians, as we found, when you search for the truth about John Henry, things can quickly go off the rails. Not apologizing.

[Noel]

They sure can.

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[Noel]

Obviously, the stuff of folklore typically evolves from a kernel of truth from a real person, from a real event, but then has a way of kind of through that historical game of telephone taking on a life of its own and as you said, Ben, even creating multiple versions depending on the teller and the circumstances, and can also evolve kind of with the times.

[Ben]

Absolutely. Well said. We know it is true. We know several things are true. It is true that railroad companies exist. CNO was a railroad company that existed at the time. It is true that they hired thousands of dudes to smooth out the trade and to cut through obstacles, including mountains and other protuberances that stood in the way of their railroad tracks. It's also true that steel drivers were a real thing and they did work the way described in the legend. But when we get to like to your point, Noel, when we get to the actual John Henry, there's so much debate still in the modern day and it's crazy because we always mention the game of telephone, right? The sheer popularity of this folktale makes the research difficult. And I gotta tell you guys, also the fact that his name is like John Henry instead of John Wickenstadtborough or something makes it tougher because there are a lot of people named John Henry. John or Henry. Yeah, exactly. Right. So even if he was a real single entity, even if we accept that for the sake of conversation, folks still don't agree on where or how everything went down. And this historical investigation dates way back, like in the 1920s. You can find people investigating this.

[Noel]

So back in the 1920s, a guy by the name of Guy Benton Johnson, a sociologist, he did some digging into the provenance of the John Henry myth, legend, folklore, and concluded that there was a John Henry that might have worked for the railroads, specifically for the Chesapeake and Ohio Railroad Company during that massive Big Bend Tunnel construction project. The way he puts it is one can make out a case either for or against it.

[Ben]

Okay.

[Noel]

Okay. So let's go to case four, perhaps, to start.

[Ben]

Yeah. But also he's kind of shrugging, right? He's saying you could. And say whatever you want. You could say John Henry was definitely real, or you could say John Henry definitely didn't do this. It's weird. He does do a lot of boots on the ground looking at this. He says, all right, we know the tunnel really was built and it took from 1870 to 1872 to make it. And he says, I'm going to go. I'm going to interview people in the area and see if anybody has a firsthand recollection or written proof of what happens. And he finds a guy who swears up and down that he knew the John Henry personal.

[Kal Penn]

Or you could say another guy.

[Ben]

Another guy named John Henry.

[Noel]

Yeah, exactly. And, you know, to your point, Ben, it being something of a common name, especially for the times, it is. It does become harder and harder to. To, you know, run down the reality of the situation. And here's Johnson puts it. This man known as Neil Miller told me in plain words how he had come to the tunnel with his father at 17, how he carried water and drills for the steel drivers. He was sort of a steel driving caddy of sorts. That's me, not Johnson. How he saw John Henry every single day. And finally, all about the contest between John Henry and the steam drill. This seems promising, Ben.

[Ben]

Right? Yeah, it seems. It has specificity, Right. And it seems like the guy is sharing genuine memories. We know. Our buddy Neil Miller continues. And when he is talking to the sociologist Johnson, he describes the legend of John Henry pretty much beat for beat. And the only big difference is that he says, John Henry doesn't die immediately. He carries on a little bit after the fact. And then Miller also says, yeah, there was definitely a steam drill. Let me describe what the steam drill looked like. So he's talking to the sociologist who is essentially a folklorist at this point. And our buddy Johnson is listening to him and he's writing down notes and dimensions. And so from these he makes a sketch of what that steam drill would have looked like. And he goes back and he looks at photos of, of early steam drills that would have been around at the time. And he says, okay, this looks legit. So as you said, Noel, it's promising until there's another turn.

[Noel]

A bit of a twist not in the favor of this tale. Sadly. Johnson contacted Cino Railroads themselves and their chief engineer, C.W. johns, stated with zero uncertainty that no steam drills were used in the construction of Big Bend. Unfortunately. Unfortunately, Johns wasn't able to provide a whole lot more information. All the records from that period, he said, burned up in a fire. Convenient, I was about to say, but I would think that technology wise, if you were like the historian for a company like that, you'd probably have a decent sense of the kind of equipment that was in play.

[Ben]

Yeah, yeah, that's a great point there, Noel. We know then that from Johnson's research In the late 1920s, in his estimation, we do have a John Henry and this John Henry is in West Virginia. But there are clearly contradicting accounts of what went down, whether a steam drill was in the mix, and there is no documentation to prove it either way. They're just oral recollections. But there are other opinions. We gotta Fast forward to 2006. This is some banger research by an historian named Scott Reynolds Nelson.

[Noel]

In his book Steel Driving Man, John the Untold Story of an American Legend, Reynolds Nelson argues that Henry was in fact a real guy, born in New Jersey in 1848. He found this information using a different source than had previously been tapped. Unanalyzed prison records from the Virginia penitentiary. And in that he found a 19 year old African American man with three different names on paper. John Henry, John W. Henry and John William Henry.

[Ben]

Now, are these all the same guy or are these three different Johns? You know what I mean? This is a pickle. At the time, we know that penitentiary inmates were often hired out as laborers to various private companies. John Henry is, according to Nelson's research, noted as having been part of the first group of prisoners assigned railroad tunnel work. And Nelson also looked at CNO's tunneling records, which is surprising because he found stuff that apparently hadn't burned up in a fire.

[Noel]

Okay, curiouser and curiouser. Exactly, Ben. So with all of this newfound information, Nelson speculated that His John Henry might well have come to Virginia in order to help clean up battlefields after the Civil War, then been arrested for burglary. And we should talk a little bit about the black codes. That could be an episode unto itself and the brutally hypocritical way that these freed men were treated after already having gone through such horrific circumstances. That's maybe a conversation for another day, Ben. Then at that point he became potentially one of the many convicts that were pushed into least labor for the C and O rail company, which I would argue, Ben, and I think this is where you're heading as well, is so sort of almost a form of like indentured servitude, right?

[Ben]

100% Noel. Yeah, this is definitely. I agree. We've got to make an episode about the black codes in the future. Their primary aim was to put as many newly freed African American people into the prison system as possible. So all of the stuff you could be convicted of carried cartoonishly overbearing fines and a lot of jail time. And one of the silliest, most evil things about the black codes were that in this area at this time, they've made it a crime for black people to seem too cheerful about the end of slavery.

[Noel]

Right. No, it's just absurd. And not to mention, I think which is appropriate in this conversation or relevant, they created these forced year long labor contracts and getting out of them or trying to get out of them earlier meant that you could not only have your wages garnished, but you could potentially face arrest as well. Aggressively heavy handed implementation of vagrancy laws like. And this is inherently racist in and of itself. The idea of the idle black man fining them for, you know, know being quote unquote shiftless layabouts, whatever. Right.

[Ben]

Illegal not to have an employer, illegal to be happy. All kinds of.

[Noel]

And this wasn't the same as Jim Crow, but hand in hand, right? These things operated in concert.

[Ben]

Yeah, exactly. Yes, you nailed it. Right? Like a duck versus a goose. We're still talking birds.

[Noel]

Well, you actually isn't it, isn't it true that this is what kind of more evolved into Jim Crow? I mean they are kind of part of the same.

[Ben]

Yes, very much so, Very much so. The shadow of racism. And according to Nelson, there is a kind of off to the side hero or at least a well intentioned person in this story. It's weirdly enough the warden of the prison in Virginia

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[Kal Penn]

hey everyone, it's Cal Penn. I'm the host of earsay, the Audible and I Heart Audiobook Club. This week on the podcast I am sitting down with Ray Porter, the narrator of Andy Weir's audiobook project Hail Mary Massive sci fi adventure about survival and science and what happens when you wake up alone, very far away from Earth.

[Ray Porter]

I really had to make a decision because I caught myself getting that frog in my throat and starting to get teary as I'm narrating some of these sections and it's like, okay, yo yo yo, is this indulgent? And I really thought about it. I was like, no. At this point it would kind of be betraying the trust the author and the listener have in telling this story if I don't go through it. But there's places in this book that that deeply emotionally affected me and I left it on the mic. That's great because it served the story. People will say like oh my God, I cried at the end. It's like yeah dude, me too.

[Kal Penn]

Listen to Irsay the Audible and iHeart audiobook club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Ben]

This warden had been imprisoned during the Civil War. He was a former ice salesman. He just sold frozen water and he got in trouble with Confederate forces for supporting the Union. And when he became a warden, he looked around at the just horrific conditions of this Virginia penitentiary and he said, look, a lot of these guys have been jammed up on very small time charges, like you said, being happy, loitering, maybe taking a little bit of money. He says if we make them laborers for private contractors, maybe they will have better living conditions. Maybe they will have better clothing. Maybe they will be fed on a more regular, more healthy basis. Yeah, that part is largely lost to history outside of Nelson's research. But like that 1920s sociologist before him, Nelson looked and looked and looked and could find no hard evidence of a steam drill actually being used in Big Bend. That takes him to another tunnel.

[Noel]

Aha, another tunnel. He did find evidence that such a contest took place 40 miles away at the Lewis Tunnel between Talcott and Millborough in Virginia. So we do know that there were steam Drills that were implemented in that project. And we also know that there were prisoners who worked alongside.

[Ben]

Yeah, and we gotta bust a little bit of a myth about the steam drill from the John Henry story. The steam drill in folklore is advertised as this unstoppable, amazing kind of evil, unrelenting thing. But the steam drills that were in practice here, they were not perfect. They threw up all kinds of dust and they threw up all kinds of particulates that would not just endanger the people, people in the area. They were also the kind of things that were small enough to screw up the machine itself so it would keep running. And the more it ran, the more likely it would be to get jammed up. And so you'd have to have a team of humans to come in either to fix it or to clean it. Right.

[Noel]

Then I think we're getting somewhere here in terms of the modern equivalent. This willy nilly deployment of machine learning large language models to the point where they're trying to use it to replace certain jobs. But then they still require people to kind of check behind them and make sure they don't blow up the world, you know, or hallucinate facts when used for, you know, writing articles and things like that. Right, right, exactly. Almost more trouble than it's worth because it just is. It isn't ready. Right. It's not there yet.

[Ben]

Yes, sir. And our historian Nelson also says the verses of the ballad about John Henry include him being buried near the White House in the sand somewhere that locomotives roar. That means that Henry's body, to Nelson's research, was buried in a ditch not behind Pennsylvania Avenue.

[H]

Right.

[Ben]

Not behind the POTUS White House, but behind a part of the Virginia State Penitentiary called the White House at the time, time this was painted white. And later research, we don't want to get too dark here, found that there were numerous unmarked graves behind that area,

[Noel]

which makes sense considering the dangerous conditions of this kind of work and the low value of human labor that was assigned by these railroad overlords. And Ben, I mean, I think we've both been thinking this all along the way and you probably have two ridiculous historians, is that this, like a lot of folkloric figures, seems like John Henry was, he was a symbol. He represented a lot of these things that we're talking about, the evils of, the corruption and evils of, you know, unchecked industrialization. But he was less likely a single person than he was like, you know, an amalgamation of different people and kind of meant to be almost like a symbol rather than historical figures. Figure.

[Ben]

Yeah, yeah. That's the idea. I think we're all picking up here. Especially because Nelson's research, which we cannot praise enough, finds that the trail goes cold for this. Alternately named John Something Williams. The prison records for John William Henry, they stop, full stop. In 1873. There's nothing saying he was released for time served. There's nothing saying he died. But the fact. Fact that they just stopped writing about him at that time, given the way the US Treated black people, it probably

[Noel]

means he died, not necessarily from a brain aneurysm due to too much pounding.

[Ben]

You're right. Right. A brain aneurysm due to too much pounding. We're a family show. What a way to go. But it would be a way, you know.

[Noel]

Yeah, it would be a way. The naughtier version of that scenario. Yes.

[Ben]

Scenario. Yeah. Nelson instead believes that his Henry, the one he has found, actually died of a terrible respiratory condition called silicosis.

[Noel]

Oh. Oh, boy. Now, this is relevant because we're talking about the kind of thing that is caused by inhalation of gnarly materials like rock dust and debris.

[Ben]

A hundred percent, dude. Yeah. Brought on by drills. Brought on by blasting, regardless of the tunnel in which you're working.

[Noel]

And I do have to take this as an opportunity to say a thing that will always live with me is the longest word I know. And I believe this has also been referenced in Futurama or the Simpsons. At the very least. Pneumono. Ultramicroscopic silicovolcaniconiosis. Which is not what we're describing here, but it is the version of it that you would get from working in a colonial line.

[Ben]

Nice. Is that a real word?

[F]

Sure is.

[Noel]

Pneumonial. Ultramicroscopic silica. Volcanic coniosis.

[Ben]

Thank you. It reminds me of a Mary Poppins song.

[Noel]

100%.

[Ben]

It's got that cadence to it that's beautiful. So now, folks, as we're wrapping up, we have to realize. Oh, no, no.

[Noel]

It is the same thing. It's inhalation of very fine silica or quartz dust. So I guess the. What was it? Silicosis. It's just maybe a shorthand for something very similar. But that is not the word.

[Ben]

Or that's a specific type, perhaps psychosis. And at this point, as we're wrapping up here, folks, our question naturally moves from who was the real John Henry? To was there a real John Henry? A definitive answer may be lost to time because not all the historians agree, but Nelson's work is awesome. Do check out his book and we know, most importantly, the legend. Legend isn't going away anytime soon. The story of John Henry has been with our nation through countless labor movements, power to the people, through the struggle for civil rights. And now, of course, it returns anew, revivified in the great debate about AI and automation.

[Noel]

Really, really great work on this brief as well, Ben. We're going to come back soon with another food history story about software. Soft serve ice cream for the summer. But in the meantime, huge thanks to you again, Ben, for the research on this one. Huge thanks to Jonathan Strickland, Ish the Quizzer and AJ Bahamas Jacobs the Puzzler.

[Ben]

Yes, big, big thanks to Dr. Rachel Big Spinach Lance, as well as the rude dudes of ridiculous crime. If you love us, you will dig them. Hopefully not like a railway tunnel. We also have to say big, big thanks to our super producer, Max the Freight Train Williams. And no, this is a, this is a fun one, man. I'm really enjoying our time together exploring larger than life figures of American folklore. So thank you.

[Noel]

Oh, man, you're welcome. And thanks to you. We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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Visit Wells Fargo.com autographjourney Terms apply. Hey, everyone, it's Kel Penn. I'm inviting you to join the best sounding book club you've ever heard with my podcast, Hearsay, The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. Every episode, I nerd out with amazing guests and dive into the best new audiobooks available on Audible. It's the book club for your ears. Listen to Earsay the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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