Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (2:48)

All right, girl. So we're gonna go back to 2018. All right? And I was out of an abusive relationship, and when I say out, I was finally out. And in this relationship, I lost todos. Everything. Everything I own, I lost it. And I was living a high life, honey. Okay? I had a Range Rover gone 3,000 square foot home that I purchased for myself. And was fully furnished. Paintings on the wall, king size bed, everything gone. Okay? My clothes. This man threw my clothes in the trash. Like this was not like I was gone, gone. This happened in 2016. And so to get over it, I was going to a support group through three times a week I was doing individual therapy. I had been diagnosed with ptsd. So I was doing my work. Okay. After two years, I said, okay, I've done the work. I'm ready to date for pleasure. Okay, I'm ready to date for pleasure. And I had started my private practice. So I've been in mental health since 2002 is when I graduated. And this is all I've ever done. And so finally I start my private practice. I have an office, I have a couch, I have tissues. I have my little chair that I sit in and I have my little notes, right? I take my notes. So I was doing the therapy thing, but I had just started. Just started. So I had my therapy practice. I'm on Bumble swiping, honey for pleasure. Okay? New business. So I'm. I'm feeling like this is a new beginning, right? Like I did the work, I did all the, all the things when you come out of a toxic relationship. And so I'm ready, okay, Now I get to swiping. And at that time, the kids now call it a roster. I had me a little roster going on. So I had met a couple dudes, but you know, you need a bunch to choose from. So I'm swiping and I swipe past this dude, David. First thing I noticed is that he's six five. Okay, that is me. That's my thing, right? I swipe through the pictures, his face, okay, whatever the pictures. Tattoos everywhere. Like a sleeve of tattoos. I love me some tattoos. And I just think it's masculine. I think it's very sexy. It's just. I love it. So he's 6 5, he has tattoos. And I'm in a sorority. He was in a fraternity, right? I know we're grown people, but the way black American culture works is that you're in a sorority or fraternity for the rest of your life. And it's something that we're very proud of. So the fact that I'm in one and he's in one, I'm like, okay, this is going well. And so I swipe. And on Bumble, when you swipe, it says, you're a match. And it gives you this big, you're a match. And you've like, oh, he liked me already. You know what I mean, he liked me. And then it just feels, like, really good. And as a woman, you have to make the first move on Bumble. So all I did, hey, how are you? Boom, everything. He was communicating back and forth. He was answering all of my questions. And so the folks, the men that I had met on the roster, they were very apprehensive about responding to the questions that I'm asking. So what kind of work do you do? These other dudes were very ambiguous. Are you on LinkedIn? Oh, why do we have to go to LinkedIn? Like, they weren't giving information. Whereas David was like, hey, you can find me on LinkedIn. Here's my LinkedIn. Here's what I do. Here's a picture of my. Like, he was just. This is my full name. You can do whatever research you want. So he was very engaged from the beginning. There was a lot of communication, a lot of text messages. A lot, a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot. And the very next morning, he messages me, Good morning, beautiful. Good morning, beautiful. How are you, beautiful? All throughout the day. And it was a lot, right? It was a lot to have. It was a lot. It was a lot. And he also wanted to move the conversation from Bumble to the personal cell phone really quick. That's okay. He gave me so much information about himself. I'd looked at LinkedIn. He is who he says he is. What's. What's the big deal? He started almost immediately FaceTiming, like, no, are you busy? Is this a good time? FaceTime, like, raw. Like a raw FaceTime call. Which is a lot, right? It's just. It's a lot. It is. It's a lot. And, like, pictures, videos. This is me. This is what I ate. How's your day? How's it going? You know, what's going on? Send me pictures of the dog. Like, it was a lot. And he's four years younger, right? So I'm very Gen X. Like, I'm the unofficial spokesperson for the entire generation. You know what I mean? Like, I'm Gen X 100%. I was born in 78. And so he's four years younger. I didn't think four years was a big deal, but millennials are very different. They're very different. And initially I thought the amount of communication was because of this generational difference. And so I reached out to my friends. I'm like, yo, this bro is calling me nonstop, texting me, sending me pictures, wanting to talk FaceTime. And my friends were like, that's just how millennials are like, they're different. They are on their phone all the time. We're not. That's just their vibe. It's not a big deal. Right? Okay, fine, Fine. So we meet up for the first time after the Drake concert. Here's why this is important. At that time, my friends had moved away. Vegas is a very transient place. And so every three to five years, you have like a friend group. And it's amazing. And then one person moves away, and then everyone moves away. So I was in that everyone moved away phase. And the friend that I was with at the Drake concert didn't know me very well. And she actually didn't even realize the person who abused me. She knew him better than she knew me. She didn't even put those two things together. That's how new and casual me and this person was. And she's an amazing friend now. But there was. It was very surface, right? And so new practice, new friend, new guy from Bumble. We finally meet in person at the Drake concert, right? I love Drake. FYI. So after the concert's over, we meet. He's about 30 pounds heavier in person than he was in those pictures. Now, he also physically looks older than in the pictures on Bumble. So he definitely posted pictures from when he was in his prime. Right? When he's in the gym, he got the muscles, he got the tattoos there. He's a little sweaty, so it's a little damp. You know what I mean? It's like, you know, it was giving. It was very sexy. And in person, not. It wasn't a vibe. It was a clear difference. The weight was a clear difference. But I'm like, okay, I'm dating for pleasure. Not a big deal. We have a good first meet. Very appropriate. He wasn't pushy or anything. He gave me a hug. It went fine. The following week, the text messages continue. The Good morning, gorgeous. Can't wait to see you. Can't wait to see you again on the weekend. I'm looking forward to it. What are you doing all day long? Right? And it was uncomfortable initially, but it's something that I really got very used to very, very quickly, right? And so we meet up again. It's very nice, very sexy. And we have this kiss. Now, this is like some movie star vibe because he's 65 and I get to have my fantasy. I'm like standing on my tippy toes, you know what I mean? And he, like, he's not. He's a is. He's well proportioned. So it's not like six Five lanky. Like it's six. Five solid. So it. It's a vibe. It's a good feeling. And I'm, like, looking up, and it's this beautiful kiss. And then he messages me like, that was a great kiss. I'm like, okay, we're going to hook up, because this is just dating for pleasure. I'm all in. And that was a Saturday. And so Monday, he calls me and he sounds distraught. Once again, known him for two weeks, he sounds distraught. I'm like, well, what's going on? And he burst into tears. And when I was just like you, I was like, okay, what? And he says, I'm just so lonely here. I'm having a hard time meeting people. I miss my family. You know, I don't really know anyone here. I'm overwhelmed. And I totally understand that because Vegas is such a transient place, I was trying to find new friends as well. After I've been here for, at that time, 17 years, where it's constantly recycling friends. And it is hard. It really is hard. And I felt. I felt really bad for him. And I didn't know how to handle men crying at that time. Even as a professional, I didn't really know how to handle it. And in some of my sessions when men would be crying, it was a lot like, now, I don't care now. You cry me a river now. But back in the day, I was just like, oh, my God. And for a black man to be that vulnerable, I didn't want to dismiss it. I wanted to validate it. And I wanted him to know he was safe with me. And there's a lot of talk about black men and their vulnerability and their mental health. So once again, I go back to my friends, okay, so. But he was crying. I don't really know him. It's only been two weeks. And my friend said the same thing. This is what we want. We want a man who talks. We want a man who cries. We want a man who shares his feelings with us. This is what everyone says they want. And when you have it, you can't disrespect him or invalidate him for crying. And I. Okay, I don't really know him, though. Does it matter? Does it matter? Is that the caveat? Does it matter? Is it only okay for a man, especially a black man, to be vulnerable if he's known you nine months, four days and three hours? Like, what? What are we talking about? The know. I said, okay, have it. Have it. So after the crying episode, I noticed a couple things change. Now the good morning beautiful became Good morning, mama bear. Good morning, mama bear. You're so loving. You're so kind. You're so nurturing. Right? Thank you so much for listening. Like, I can talk to you. You're so easy to talk to.

Kevin Allison (14:00)

You.

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (14:01)

You know, I know your clients love having you. You know what I mean? You just have this warmness about you, right? Compliments, compliments, compliments. But then the conversation shifted around to his ex and specifically how beautiful this ex was. Right. Mind you, at that time, I'm in my 40s. I early 40s, right? Maybe 40, 41. A woman of a certain age, and he's younger, and she's even younger than him. And so there's this newness around dating for pleasure, dating someone younger. I'm older now. I'm not the youngest, cutest, hottest thing in the room anymore. You know what I mean? I'm still fine, but 45. And so she's younger, and he mentions that. And she's a bottle girl in Vegas. So bottle girls don't really have a reality in anywhere else. But in Vegas, these girls walk around with all their cash and prizes out. They're usually very tall, very thin. They're gorgeous. For the most part, they're gorgeous, and they make a ton of money. And she. The way he described her, gorgeous. She makes a ton of money, right? At the time, this was at Tao. Tao is one of the biggest nightclubs on the strip. You know, once again, I was in my party days, just got divorced. So I was out a lot, right? I'm out a lot. I'm out at the clubs a lot. And there was this level of, well, how pretty is she? You know, how pretty is she? Like, am I fine enough to be a bottle girl? I know I could do it. I don't want to, though. I don't want to have my everything out all the time. But it made me feel uncomfortable, you know? And I didn't know how to say that without feeling weak and without feeling like, you think she's prettier than me. Do you know what I mean? And, like, I'm a pretty girl, so I didn't know how to deal with that. So we have these constant conversations about the pretty bottle girl that's younger than him, he's younger than me, and she's younger than him. So now we have this dynamic. But then we also have him saying, you know, I don't have a lot of money now, but when I make a lot of money, I want us to travel. I want us to Go to Thailand. I want us to do this. And at the time, I wasn't a travel girly the way I am now. So Thailand just seemed so exotic. It seemed like this fantasy. And he would send me, like, these videos of Thailand and the things you could do there. I'm like, they got tigers out there. Like, I didn't know.

Cindy Freeman (16:31)

What do you.

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (16:31)

What do you. You know what I mean? I've been in Vegas in the desert for 20 years, and traveling just wasn't. That type of traveling just wasn't accessible to me. I was a therapist. You know, I'm a social worker. You know what I mean? Not a bunch of social workers traveling to Thailand at the time. And so he did this Amazon cart where he put backpacks and lotion and all the things we would need for this trip to Thailand. And there's this one. I can't even think I see it now. This blue water and mountains and everything and what we're going to need for the trip. And so it was such a visual that he created very practical things that you can wrap your mind around. This image of this trip where I've thought out all the things we need, and I got it ready. All I have to do is push the button on the cart. He also started talking about how much his family would love me if they. If my, you know, my grandma would love you and my aunts would love you, everyone would love you. And once again, we have the sorority piece, you know, and. Oh, they would be so proud of you. They would love you. So all this talk, all this. Oh, my God, it's just wrapping me up now. I live in the suburbs because I'm a bougie girly. He lives in another suburb, which is like maybe 25 minutes away. I never saw this guy after this burst of tears. All of a sudden, now he's the busiest man in the world. Never. We. I'm like, are we going to hang out? Am I going to see you again? And he's like, you know, honestly, I have a lot of social anxiety, and I don't really go out that much. Like, I kind of force myself to go out and meet you in person, but I don't really go out that much. And this is why. The last beautiful, younger bottle girl with the banging body, this is why she left me, right? Because I don't go out, okay? But I still want to see you. You know, in my mind, I'm like, how are we going to hook up if I don't see you? That wasn't a thing for him. And he would go out and send me messages saying, I wish you were here. And he went to one event at the Smith Center. The Smith center is like Las Vegas's attempt at culture and high society. And he messages me, I wish you were here. I wish you were here. It would have been so good if you were here. Well, why wasn't I? Like you didn't. You know what I mean? You didn't invite me. I could get dismissed and what are you talking about? So it was like being in a long distance relationship even though he was right here. And this goes on for months now we're in 2019. We got to put ourselves in context. Like the world is about to end in so many ways that no one knows at the time. But this pace of communication all day, every day, FaceTime, text, all of this is happening. And it all came to a head when I was in my office and I was literally notice I'm shaking and he hadn't messaged me. And in between clients, I pick up the phone. I'm staring at the phone waiting for him to text or call because he had stopped. Now it's almost like, where's my validation? Give me my validation. Where's my attention and my heart? I'm like, is he going to call? What's wrong? What did I do wrong? What happened? And just the energy, the panic of what happened to all of this attention and everything that we had established. Why was he not texting as much? Now I'm trying to do this in between 50 minute sessions. So I'm holding it together for a client, trying to hide my panic. As soon as the client leaves, I'm on the phone, he's not texting. And in that moment, I was like, oh my God. What has happened to me was I'm an addict. I'm a full blown addict. I was shaking because he didn't text me. And it all came to me like one. I'm in this codependent thing because this guy has me hooked on this fantasy of this world that's coming and this family that's going to meet me and love me and this life we're going to lead together. And I'm feeling inadequate. I'm performing so that he thinks I'm as pretty as this bottle girl. But how's that going to happen? Because I don't see him, you know what I mean? Like, it's. And I was just emotionally just twisted into knots. And it just didn't become clear until I was in that moment on the Couch. Totally addicted. Yeah, I think I just want to pause there because that's a lot. Yeah, that's a lot.

Kevin Allison (21:45)

Hey, folks, another quick break and then we'll hear the rest of Ms. Aisha's story.

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (21:51)

We'll be right back.

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Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (22:21)

Experian.

Jill Schlesinger (22:24)

Hi, this is Jill Schlesinger, CBS News business analyst, certified financial planner and the host of the Jill on Money podcast. With the new year upon us, there's no better time to take control of your financial life. And the Jill on Money podcast is here to help. It's your questions that make it possible for me to provide unconventional and I hope, entertaining insights on your money and, and more importantly, on your life. Follow and listen to Jill on Money wherever you get your podcasts.

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (22:55)

We're back.

Cindy Freeman (22:56)

So just a couple of questions. He kept on saying that when he makes money, what was the plan?

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (23:04)

So there wasn't. He's the type of guy that's always like one deal away from the deal. Do you know what I mean? Like one handshake away, one meeting away from making the money and doing all the things. He had a master's degree. He's not a dumb dude. And he had worked, he worked in sports management. So always this close to getting someone to manage. That's going to be the one. Do you know what I mean? The guy. So all this future tripping and all this fantastic future, as soon as it happens, we're going to take Thailand. We're going to have this amazing life. I was just totally, totally addicted to it.

Cindy Freeman (23:48)

Yeah, no, I hear that. I guess one of the thoughts I've got is he's, he, he wants to travel to Thailand with you. That's big.

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (23:55)

That's.

Cindy Freeman (23:55)

We're going to go places. Meanwhile, he has social anxiety. So how is he going to get on a plane and go to Thailand if he's to social anxiety ridden to leave the house?

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (24:06)

And the thing with that is that it. It pulled at the therapist part of me. Yeah, I bet. Where I understand social anxiety. I understand being out and being nervous and being overwhelmed. And what does it say about me as a professional if I tell someone that this actually is a deal breaker? Right. Like, I want to see you. I want to hang out with you. So then, am I a terrible therapist for telling someone you have a condition? That is not something I want in my life.

Cindy Freeman (24:37)

Especially where bottle girl left him over it.

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (24:39)

Yes. And so. But he made sure to build that up. But she left me. Right. But you are nurturing. You are caring. You listen to me.

Cindy Freeman (24:50)

You're so much better.

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (24:51)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're so much better. She didn't understand, but you understand. I know you understand. And so there's this dynamic and this. The therapist, me, and just the Aisha Gen X girly from New Jersey me. Like, he manipulated both of them, and both of them, I was really overwhelmed. Really?

Cindy Freeman (25:12)

And where. How long had you known him when you had this epiphany?

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (25:18)

I'm gonna say the big burst of tears came after only knowing him for two weeks.

Cindy Freeman (25:23)

Right.

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (25:24)

And this sitting on the couch in my office, shaking, staring at the phone. Legitimately staring at the phone. I would say that was about four to five months in, so not a long time at all. But I hadn't seen him. Wow. We hadn't seen each other. This is all text message, FaceTime videos he's sending me back and forth. This man is 20 minutes away, and I didn't see him. Didn't see him.

Cindy Freeman (25:51)

Yeah. I've been in something similar, but the person lived in London, so the excuse was they were so far away.

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (25:57)

Right. That's a big excuse. Yeah.

Cindy Freeman (26:00)

This is different. This guy's 25 minutes by car. Right. So.

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (26:04)

Absolutely. Absolutely. It was just for me to realize what was happening to me. It didn't register until the calls and the attention stopped. And it stopped so abruptly. What was going on? He said something had happened that day, that he. He was busy, he wasn't with his phone or something crazy. This man is on his phone, on his watch, on the T, on the. Cause we all have iPhones. Apple Watch. We're constantly in communication. And on our Apple Watch, we even communicated. On the Apple Watch, we did, like, sports competitions. You can do that with your friends where they know when you finish a workout and you know when they finish the workout. So this man was a part of every facet of my life. Every morning. Every morning. So I hear the message from him. I see he's completed a workout on my watch. Then he gets. If I did that on his watch. So even if we're not physically together because of technology, he's really more present in my life than even if he lived with me because the messages are constant throughout the day.

Cindy Freeman (27:11)

Wow. Wow.

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (27:14)

All right, so you're ready.

Cindy Freeman (27:15)

Yeah.

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (27:16)

So I realize.

Cindy Freeman (27:18)

Mm.

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (27:18)

I'm absolutely full blown codependent, attached, addicted emotionally to this person. And within maybe a week and a half of that, this man moves into my house. I know. He moves in. Here's what happens. He loses this job. The job is paying for the place where he lives. He's homeless. He's in Las Vegas. You have no idea how many people that happens to in this city when they get out here for a job or relationship, it ends and then they're homeless. And so at the time, I'm living in a two bedroom, two bath condo, right. And my second bedroom was an office. So I did have space. I had a two car garage. I had space. So he moves in. Mind you, we've not hooked up.

Cindy Freeman (28:07)

Oh, I'm back. I'm backing you up here. It's like, like when, when you said you could move in, what was going on in your head?

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (28:18)

I'm thinking, I'm hoping that something is going to happen. Like, this is a weird vibe. Are we friends? Am I coaching you? Am I, you know, what is happening here? But I mean, I still am in the dating for pleasure, and there ain't been no pleasure. So I'm thinking maybe, okay, maybe there'll be a little bit of pleasure or maybe this will be like an experience. Right, Right.

Cindy Freeman (28:44)

So you let him in. In part, because, like, maybe if he just moved in here, this thing will actually take off.

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (28:51)

And I also wanted to see him more. He's not a bad person. He's funny. He was encouraging. You know, I was working, trying to get all these clients, and it wasn't happening. So I had to take a job at a psych hospital, which I hated. I would drive to the park. I swear to God, the hospital is right around the corner. I would drive to the parking lot and I would sit there and I would cry. I did not want to go in. I hated that my business wasn't taking off and I had to work at this psych hospital to supplement my income and for health insurance. And he would talk to me on the phone. He would say, go in there, work. Like, this is your favorite job. You know, you're doing a good thing. You're doing a good thing for the community. People really need someone to talk to. Go in there, take a Deep breath. I'm right here with you. And I was, okay, okay. And I would go into work, and then I worked from 2pm to 2am and he would say, okay, you're, you know, you're learning the job. I'll be on FaceTime with you the whole time. And we don't even have to talk, but I'll be there with you. Fine. So I'm doing my work. He's right here, honey. Right here on FaceTime. I have it propped up. And he's doing his work, too. And so once again, even if he lived with me, technology brought him right next to me all day, all the time.

Cindy Freeman (30:24)

Oh, wow. That's a whole other level of intimacy.

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (30:28)

Yes. And so I'm thinking, finally, he lives with me. So I was happy. But then that's the codependent piece. Like, well, he's homeless. You happy about this man being homeless? And now he needs you more. So he moves in. And we actually had a great summer. I would have a long day at work. One of my favorite things in the world is boba tea. He would take me to Chinatown in the middle of the night. And it'd be 11 o' clock at night. Like, let's go get some boba. I know you need some boba. So he drive me to get boba. Open the door for me, close the door for me. When I was working, he would clean up everything. And he would say, I want to make sure when you come home, you're comfortable from work. And he listened. How was work? How was your clients? How's this? And still bringing up this other girl. Finally, finally we see the girl. Finally we see this gorgeous model, tall, bottle girl, girly that he's been propping up to make me feel inadequate for months and months and months and months, right? And I forget where we were. I think he and I were like going to Starbucks or something. And he's like, there she is. I said, that's her. I said, no, you're gonna have to tell me again. That's her. I said, what does she model? She out here modeling gloves? Because when I tell you, I could have melted in that moment. This man made me feel so inadequate compared to this woman. And she's not unattractive. I'm not the type of girly that feels like she's not. You know, she's horrible, but she's not. She's not me. You know what I mean? So I felt so like I got my groove back, you know what I mean? Like, you know, I'm. And I hate. I hate to say it, but I'm like, I'm prettier. But objectively, even if that's true, that's not how it felt. Right? That's not how it felt.

Cindy Freeman (32:36)

Well, I also don't think that's how he wanted you to feel.

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (32:39)

Exactly, exactly. And it was just like that feeling of, but objectively, I'm more attractive. But why would he do that to me? And so now we still have all of this going on with him trying to find a job, not having a job. He's going to go here and work for a little bit, go there and work for a little bit. Every time he goes, I have this like, separation anxiety. Oh, my God. Separation anxiety. And he says to me, this man is good. He says, if you can't handle me coming and going, if it's too much for you, I'll find somewhere else to live. No, it's okay. We'll figure it out. You know, we'll figure it out. We're still not hooking up. This man has never, like, slipped into my room, never came into my room, never wanted to cuddle.

Cindy Freeman (33:31)

So is he sleeping in the office then?

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (33:33)

He's sleeping in the office. The office is right next to the bedroom. This is not. This is a condo. This is not a massive estate, honey. This is a two bedroom, two bathroom, 900 square foot condo. I need you to hear me.

Cindy Freeman (33:46)

Oh, my God.

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (33:48)

Yes. He never comes to cuddle. And I don't want to be rejected because I already feel an element of rejection because of this pretty model, younger bottle girl that he was dealing with. So I don't want to initiate, but he's doing nothing. There's no touching, there's no kissing, there's nothing. Six, five tattoos, nothing. No kissing, nothing.

Cindy Freeman (34:17)

Did you talk to him about it?

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (34:19)

Once again, I didn't want to feel like I was begging. And what I did bring up to him was one time we were on the couch and he sort of put his head in my lap and I was like, I'm about to get some. I was like, this is my night. This man. It was really comfortable. And then he got up immediately and went upstairs. And I said, we need to talk. What is going on? And he said, you don't think that. I don't think about that. Of course I think about that. He said, I am protecting you from me. He said, I don't have a job. I'm in a dark place, and if we start anything like this, we are going to hate each other. So what am I supposed to do. This man is emotionally intelligent. He cries. He tells me, I want to be more physical, but I'm not going to, because mentally right now, I'm protecting you from that. So what does anyone do in that situation? What am I supposed to do? I just let it be what it is. He's coming back. He's going. That's very triggering for me. And then finally he gets this job where it's permanent, but he's going to have to move to Arizona. And I'm not wanting him to do it. I'm finding all of the reasons why. But finally he goes right. He's gone for a lot longer this time. And then he comes back. But he comes back, and it's that same distance that gets me really anxious. He's not as engaged. He's not as happy to see me. And it's just like the time on the couch where I'm just, like, panicked. And I felt that similar panic. And I said, we have to talk. And we sat down in the room once again, this big man, he sits down, sits up, he folds his hands like this, and he says, I'm going to listen to you. What do you want to talk about? And I start saying, everything. You made me feel like she was prettier than me, and she absolutely is not. And you made this and you did that. And you said, we're going to Thailand. And you said all these things. And as I'm speaking, he's crying. He's crying. And he said, that's fair. I can see how you feel. How you feel. That is fair. I did bring her up a lot. And I did talk a lot about her. That's right. That is. You are right. And he said, I want to do these things, and I want to do them for you, but I can't right now. Said, I can't. I can't even take care of myself right now. And he said, the. I'm just drowning in shame, and there's nothing. There's nothing I can do for you or anyone else. And he's crying. And then I started crying, too. And I'm like, I just can't do this with you anymore. This back and forth. I cannot do this. Like, this does not work for me. And he said, okay, I can understand that. And I said, I'd never want to hear you talk about that chick to me again, ever. And he said, I can do that. I won't ever bring it up again. And he said, but can we just try to talk or maybe talk less? I said, fine. This was about three or four months before everything shut down. At this time, no one knows what Covid is. No one knows anything. It's about October, November, fine. So we try to do the less talking. It creates a lot of anxiety for me, but I realized that this is what we need to do. So he came to visit maybe two more times. He brought up the girl once. And I said, you said you're not talking about her. He said, you're right. I'm sorry. Never brought it up again. And I kept trying to pull back, and he kept overstepping those boundaries, like, we're only going to talk. No FaceTime, none of this. But he still kept crossing over those boundaries. And then I would take. Let's take a month. Take a month. And then he crossed the boundaries. So finally I said, this has to end. And I realized that I needed to stop. No contact. Like I know what no contact is. But this needed. It needed to. Because he was never going to respect the boundary. He was always going to cross it. And so saying that to him meant losing my daily companion. It meant losing my support. I'm starting a new business. And he was almost like a coach. Like, I'll walk you through it. I'll be right here. Losing that. And in the middle of trying to navigate starting a new life, losing the one person that was really constant in that for me. And so it was a lot. But saying that this person had to go was really, really hard for me because I was losing a friend. It was devastating. And I blocked him on everything. Everything. LinkedIn, anything you can name. I didn't block him on Venbo, girl. He could still reach out to me on Venbo because he didn't pay me a. The whole time he stayed here, he didn't pay a dime. No rent, no electricity. He paid me nothing. To this day, nothing. And stayed with me for about three solid months as I'm going out to work, trying to treat as many clients as possible to keep everything going. He never offered a dime of financial assistance. Never. And so that when I finally let that go, that was in 2020. What month? Before March.

Cindy Freeman (40:25)

Oh, wow.

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (40:26)

September.

Cindy Freeman (40:27)

It was in the midst of the pandemic.

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (40:30)

In the midst of the pandemic, right? And mind you, I'm alone. It's me, my dog, and my cat, and I'm working non stop. I never turned down a client. I'm working non stop. And he was very supportive throughout all of that. So to lose him and to let that go there created this. This huge vacuum in My life where physically now I really can't see anybody. And the one person that was like this sort of avatar, basically, this like, AI friend that's constantly there in my life was gone. And I said, you know what? He took up so much space in my life. I need to fill the space with something. And I filled the space with Spanish. And I had always wanted to learn Spanish. I lived in Spain in college, and it's something I've always said I would do. And so, okay, the world is ending. Maybe I'll go down speaking Spanish. Who knows? And I started learning something new and meeting all these new kids in the Spanish class from the community college online. And it just sort of started to open my eyes for me to think that there is this amazing life that I can have for real. I don't have to wait. You know, it's. I don't have to put things in an Amazon cart, but I can learn Spanish and I could create new relationships in my life, and I can create a life that is enjoyable to me. And I started to realize the way he was an escape, and how hard it is to really leave an abusive relationship. And it takes longer than two years, you know.

Cindy Freeman (42:21)

How was he an escape?

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (42:24)

He was just so comforting. He was so consistent and so affirmative. Even though the affirmation switch shifted from being so beautiful to being so mothering and nurturing, it was just affirmation, and it was very grounding. Right. And I didn't realize the transition. Losing a relationship where you lose everything, that is starting your whole life all over again. But then starting all over again in Vegas is something that happens all the time. But now I have to start and find a new friend group because that other life had friends and cousins and nephew. It was a lot life. And I didn't appreciate the volume and the magnitude of starting a whole new life with whole new people all over again. And David was just there. He just was coaching me, walking me through it every step of the way. Even if he also made me feel uncomfortable and rejected, that actually made me cling tighter. And that's a part of the trauma bond that I didn't truly understand.

Cindy Freeman (43:37)

Yeah, it's.

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (43:37)

I didn't truly understand it.

Cindy Freeman (43:39)

When you have no one to go to comfort for except for one person, when they make you uncomfortable, they're the ones you cling to. Yeah.

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (43:44)

Yeah. And it becomes a stronger connection because when he would be affirming about me being pretty. Oh, yes. Then that was like this little crumb that I just needed and needed and needed and I didn't realize the emotional addiction that underlies abusive relationships. I only saw abuse as physical or financial. Right. I didn't realize that this hot coal mama bear. Sexy. No, not sexy anymore. Mama bear. Right. Like, whoa, that's a shift. What happened there? And how do I get that back? Right. Because I like that. Good morning, beautiful. I like the. Are we going to hook up? You know what I mean? I like that. Why does it now feel like there's. I'm, like, a loving person but not a loving, sexy person in your life? Like, what happened? I didn't realize how those things manipulate you emotionally and tie you into knots. I didn't realize it and how subtle it was. Yeah, right.

Cindy Freeman (44:50)

I mean, you see it in hindsight, but not as you're there. So tell me a little more about Spanish and where that led you.

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (44:57)

So learning Spanish and thinking more about. I can actually do anything. I work virtually. Why don't I just move to Mexico?

Cindy Freeman (45:08)

Oh, my God.

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (45:09)

Just that thought. I guess it was the pandemic, and it was just like, you can do anything, you know, I wasn't tied down to an office. Everyone I was treating was online. What difference does it make if I'm in Vegas or if I'm in Mexico? So I decide to go to Mexico by myself. First time solo trip. But this is all saying I have to create a life that I don't want to escape from. I don't want to get. I don't want to fall into someone's fantasy about Thailand and their. I don't want to do that. I want to create my life. So let me take a trip by myself. And I did it. And I got on a plane, and I was nervous and I was shaking, and I flew to Mexico. I flew to Cancun, and I stayed in Playa del Carmen, fell in love with Playa. And that was in December. By February, I had sold all my stuff and moved down there.

Cindy Freeman (46:07)

Oh, my gosh.

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (46:07)

And all of this because.

Cindy Freeman (46:09)

February 2021.

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (46:11)

Yes. Oh, my gosh. I said, I'm gonna create a life that I don't want to escape from. I don't want to give up what's in my life for someone else's version of what life can be. I don't want that anymore. I don't want that fantasy anymore. I want to live my dream. I want to do this for me. And so I moved to the beach. And I guess, as people will say, the rest is history. I met community, friends. I went through the process, immigration, to become a legal, permanent Resident of Mexico.

Cindy Freeman (46:46)

Wow.

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (46:47)

And it is a second home to me. My whole life changed in that experience, but it changed because I was willing to make my life a priority, not someone else's opinion or approval to make me. And to do things that scared me, but excited me, but didn't involve a performance for someone else, but just let me get excited about my life. Wow.

Cindy Freeman (47:13)

That's great. I'm really glad to hear where you landed. Because if daily life back in. We know that daily life, at least during the hit of this story, was you going to this job you hated and then working with clients because you never turned anyone down. And at least having somebody on FaceTime at your desk quietly present, that was life. And then a fantasy of what it could be once he made money. What is life now like? What does your day look like now? What does your week look like now?

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (47:47)

Now the relationship I have with Mexico is. We still have a romance, and I may move back there. I moved. I stayed there in 2021, came back to start the immigration process in 2022.

Cindy Freeman (48:01)

Okay.

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (48:01)

And I will be a permanent resident in a couple months. That's so exciting. And so I'm thinking, do I want to move back to the beach in Playa or Mexico City, which is where I am in love. I am in love with Mexico City.

Cindy Freeman (48:17)

Why?

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (48:19)

It's like. It feels so vibrant. It feels so alive. The art, the culture, the food. It's like a. It's. It's New York without all the attitude. You know, it's. Without all the pushiness, all that New York attitude, energy. It doesn't have that. It's just welcoming. It's lovely. It's classy. It's everything. It's amazing. World class city. World class.

Cindy Freeman (48:44)

And you have. You have friends that. So you have a new friend circle. What do you do with your friends?

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (48:52)

So I have my lovely friend group out of Mexico, Mexico City, where we have a book club that we meet. I met this community of black expats, amazing, lovely women who moved to Mexico as well. And then my friends from Playa, we're all still friends. We all still connect and see each other. I go back to Playa frequently. I'll probably be there at the end of this month for a Day of the Dead celebration. It's something I do every year. So that is that new life I created for myself and these new relationships and connections we've had. I've done business deals with people I work with. It's just amazing. A whole new world.

Cindy Freeman (49:33)

Yeah.

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (49:33)

And I also started to Create content in Mexico. And I started to realize that I'm on TikTok so much, I might as well just start posting something because it got me through the pandemic, right? And so I just decided to start creating content, and I did, and it just. I had terrible lighting. Do you know what I mean? I didn't have good sound. No one does when you first start. But I started, and then I started this whole content portion of my life, and it just got really big, really fast. And I'm going viral, and people are recognizing me, and now when I go to Mexico, people recognize me. I follow you. Yes. They're like, I follow you. And, oh, it was so awesome. I can't. It's so nice to meet you in person. And when I go any airport. Ms. Aisha, Ms. Aisha, I follow you. I'm like, hey, girl, that's so awesome. Or especially when I'm in New York, I follow you. Can I take a picture? Like, it's amazing. That's incredible. I still treat clients. I have clients from all over the world now since being on TikTok, I have clients everywhere, all over, and I'm still treating clients. But I don't. I don't need that type of support that I had before my friends. I do have relationships here that are loving and supporting, but it just. It took time.

Cindy Freeman (51:00)

It took time. And I think it. I love how you say you needed to create a life you didn't want to escape from, and once you were committed to that, look how it's grown. I mean, what a rich and fabulous life.

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (51:13)

Yeah.

Cindy Freeman (51:13)

My only last question. And, you know, granted, we can never quite get into somebody's head. What do you think he might have been getting out of this?

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (51:23)

See, that's the thing. I always understood toxicity and abuse as malicious. I didn't really understand it as indifference. And he is a person that I think objectively does struggle with social anxiety and is able to manipulate women to be whatever type of support he needs. And he is able to do that with that attention, that level of control and that level of invasiveness into your life through the technology. And I'd never even had an Apple Watch, but he was like, why don't you get an Apple watch? Like, that way you can track your steps, you can track this, you can track that. But he could also track me, and he was also able to be in constant communication with me, even if my phone wasn't with me through the damn watch. Wow. And I never realized it. So that level of control and presence and Attention is a way that he gets what he needs out of women.

Cindy Freeman (52:28)

So what he needs is. Is this control. But yes, for whatever reason, whatever is blocking him sexually and, you know, we. We will never get into his head. It's about, you know, manipulating people to stick around and be there, even though their needs are. So it's like a good relationship is, as they say, oh, there's a lid for every pot kind of thing. But it's like, you know, my weaknesses and your strengths, they kind of, you know, complement each other. But a good relationship is also, how can I contribute to your life? And oh, you're not happy. How can we fix that? And it's a we as opposed to what do I need to do or say to keep around even though I'm not going to give her or him what they want.

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (53:14)

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And he's tried to reach out, and I've blocked him. He's tried to reach out at one point every year around my birthday. And this is what that type of manipulative person does. They try to reel you back in. And I know that because I tried to relate to him with distance. And he would not have it. He would not have it. The only way he knows how to relate is that constant invasive communication that creates that emotional addiction.

Cindy Freeman (53:44)

And that's the thing that's weird on this one. I had a relative who recently got caught up, an older relative got caught up with a scam artist. And so much of what you're describing sounds like the scam artist he was dealing with. But the scam artist, of course, was leading all up to that, you know, that day where I'm on a vacation and I have appendicitis and they don't. I don't have insurance and it's gonna cost a hundred thousand dollars or I'm gonna die, you know, and, you know, emptied out his bank account to help somebody. But it's like. It was, as you were saying, the photos of this is what I'm eating and da, da, da, da, da. And all of that stuff is the stuff that con artists work with. So in many ways, this was like a con. And granted, he did get an apartment for a summer, you know, free. But. But he. But this was much more about emotional. This was not about money. This was not about manipulating you for sex. If anything, it was. He was protecting you. So it's.

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (54:50)

Yeah, yeah.

Cindy Freeman (54:51)

And as you said, it's. It's not malicious. It's his. Whatever issues he has, you know, which is scary.

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (55:02)

Yeah, it's really Scary. And I was not prepared. I didn't fully understand love bombing. I didn't understand these concepts. I really didn't truly understand them. And I realized that I needed more training. Like, because this had happened to me doesn't mean I'm an expert. Right. Like, I need to understand what is happening so that I can recognize it when it comes in different forms. And it helped me to realize that. But I think people like that, it's not about money and it's not about violence. It is about control. Yeah, it's always about control. And controlling someone's emotions and being able to manipulate someone's mood is truly the ultimate form of power.

Cindy Freeman (55:50)

I can see that. I can definitely see that. And it's now I'm thinking about again. I don't want to go off into people I know, but there's specific, like specific situations where, you know, there is that question of what is driving that person to be this pathological liar? What is driving this person to always show up and be the hero, even if they have to cause the issues so that they can become the hero. And it's about the addiction is how they want to be seen in the control.

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (56:22)

Yes, absolutely.

Cindy Freeman (56:23)

Yeah. Oh, interesting. Well, I'm glad. I'm not glad you went through it, but I'm glad that you learned the lessons you did from it and that it was one long step towards this amazing life that you're leading now and all the people that you're helping. This is very, very inspiring. And yeah, there you go.

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (56:47)

Thank you so much. Thanks for holding space because it's not easy to be that vulnerable, even for someone that's sort of public facing. But I appreciate it.

Cindy Freeman (56:55)

How do you feel now? Because I know you said this felt so vulnerable and I know listening to it, I just, I think it's very. I don't want to say brave. Always so brave of you because it was a well told orient and fascinating details, but I think it's a story that needs to be heard. I think that this is something that a lot of people are going to go, wow, I can relate to that for one reason or another. All that said, that's my. How do you feel?

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (57:23)

I feel better talking about it and bookending how it really led me to Mexico and how it like experiencing losing my autonomy and losing my sense of self with someone else. How that really supercharged me to focus on myself and to be curious about what do I really like, what do I really enjoy? And at the time my Spanish was terrible, but I loved it. You Know what I mean? I love learning and I like, I just like anyone else, I know the words, but speaking it, I'm like, you know what I mean? Can't get it out. But trying something new and learning something new is just really exciting for me and I got to shift the focus from being chosen to choosing my own life. That was the shift. That was the shift.

Cindy Freeman (58:16)

Yeah. Excellent. Yeah. I think that's a great place to end on. So thank you very much.

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (58:23)

My pleasure.

Kevin Allison (58:26)

And that is that. Remember, you can find Ms. Aisha online at MyTherapist Life on Instagram, TikTok and YouTube. I am so inspired by the work she does over there. For the longest time I have been so hesitant about content on social media, but Ms. Aisha is someone who does extraordinarily valuable work there and really is an inspiration to me. Listen, if you want to support Risk and help us continue being able to put out programming like this show today, you can do that@patreon.com risk or or if you'd rather send us a one time donation that is at PayPal me riskshow. We dearly need it in 2026. All the support we can possibly get and that includes moral support. We really are so grateful for all of it, including the kind messages. You can also find us at the Risk Podcast Fans Discussion Group on Facebook or on the R Risk Podcast subreddit. Or you can email us directly@KevinRisk-Show.com and if you've got a story you might like to share, go to risk-show.com submissions and send me your pitch. Because folks, today's the day take a risk.

Ms. Aisha Grevenberg (60:18)

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