Presenting True Crime News: The Podcast

Summary

RISK! Presents: "True Crime News: The Podcast"

Episode Date: March 20, 2026
Host: Ana Garcia
Guest: Dr. Tracy Tambora (Criminal Justice Professor, University of New Haven)
Producer/Commentary: Will Updike

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Episode Overview

This episode, hosted by Ana Garcia, focuses on an especially rare and gruesome family homicide: a 24-year-old man, Jack Ball, kills his pregnant 30-year-old sister, Bethany Israel, in a crime the FBI describes as one of the rarest—sibling murder, representing just 1–3% of all homicides. Ana is joined by Dr. Tracy Tambora, a criminal justice professor and expert in domestic/family violence, to unpack the complexities of sibling violence, mental illness claims, and the layers of trauma inflicted on the surviving family.

The episode is packed with detail: from the specifics of the case, to how the insanity plea works (and common misconceptions), the shocking details of the aftermath, and broader social reflections on violence against women.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing the Case and Sibling Homicide Rarity

• [02:16] Ana explains they’re covering a rare case where a brother kills his sister (about 1–3% of all murders).
• The accused, Jack Ball, killed his pregnant older sister, Bethany Israel, who was expecting a baby boy, Levi. The murder's brutality devastated the family, especially their mother, who discovered the scene.

“This type of homicide occurs for about 1 to 3% of all murders. So why did a 24 year old man kill his pregnant 30 year old sister?”
— Ana Garcia [02:25]

"I would probably call it family violence ... we see only about 2 to 300 cases per year ... where the offender and victim are well acquainted or related."
— Dr. Tracy Tambora [04:40]

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2. Motive and Family Dynamics

• [07:19] Bethany was described as the “favorite child,” raising questions of sibling rivalry as a possible motive.
• Jack cited in his journals that Bethany was “impure” because she was pregnant.
• The discussion explores if concepts like sibling rivalry, mental illness, and misogynistic ideas of “purity” intertwine in these crimes.

"There's the potential sib rivalry, ... he’s very young, 24 years old, the crime is so horrific. Also is going to raise some red flags around mental health ... and then finally you have his note, his concept and his own words; 'She wasn't pure.'"
— Dr. Tracy Tambora [07:55]

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3. Timeline and Discovery of the Crime

• [10:05-13:55] Bethany went to Jack's for dinner on May 23, 2024, disappeared, and their mother found her dismembered body at Jack’s house late that evening.
• Discussion speculates whether anything in family dynamics or Jack’s recent behavior could have signaled a growing risk.

"Under normal circumstances, if you knew that your adult kids were safely having dinner together... you probably wouldn’t worry, would you?"
— Ana Garcia [11:13]

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4. Crime Scene Details & Aftermath

• [17:01] The scene is described as a "bloodbath": body parts throughout Jack’s house, bloody tools, and evidence of dismemberment.
• Jack dropped a body part at a random door, prompting another 911 call.
• Police eventually find Jack covered in blood, with a self-inflicted neck wound, yet coherent.

“Police found body parts throughout the house. They also found the bloody tools that were used to chop up this pregnant woman to kill her and her baby. There were bloody knives, a saw, a hatchet.”
— Ana Garcia [17:01]

“Police say they get another 911 call saying that ... a man has delivered a bloody body part to their front door.”
— Ana Garcia [18:05]

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5. Mental Illness, Competency, and Insanity Defense

• [19:01] Dr. Tambora discusses public misconceptions about the insanity defense, how rarely it works (<1% of cases), and how it usually results in lifelong psychiatric confinement, not freedom.
• Discussion on evaluating Jack’s mental state: he was able to answer questions about the date and president, suggesting cognitive awareness despite mental health claims.

"You can claim insanity and many people do. But ... to be able to use insanity in the court is very limited. Number one. But number two, it's actually not in your best interest..."
— Dr. Tracy Tambora [20:15]

"He did leave the scene. Usually when people are insane at the scene, they stay there. The police come and they’re like, 'Yeah, I did this, but what’s the problem?'"
— Dr. Tracy Tambora [23:17]

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6. Societal and Gendered Dimensions: Violence Against Women & Purity Myths

• [29:17] Discussion highlights disturbing elements of Jack’s rationale—misogynistic notions of “innocence” and “purity,” possibly mixed with religious delusions.
• Dr. Tambora ties these antiquated beliefs to patterns of violence against women and, at an extreme, “honor killings.”

“It really is fascinating to me because this almost signals some sort of antiquated, I thought, long gone mentality about the notion of female innocence and purity.”
— Dr. Tracy Tambora [30:55]

“At least in this country, we should be 150 years away from honor killings.”
— Dr. Tracy Tambora [31:57]

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7. The Mother’s Trauma and Family Fallout

• [35:20] Ana and Dr. Tambora reflect repeatedly on the incomprehensible trauma for Bethany’s mother, who lost a daughter, unborn grandson, and likely her son to the justice system in one night.

"And again, that poor mother walking into this, seeing her baby daughter, the grandchild, and then knowing that her son is responsible for this. I don't even know how you wake up in the morning."
— Ana Garcia [35:59]

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8. Legal Proceedings: Guilty Plea, Sentencing, and Family Impact

• [36:56+] Jack Ball pleads guilty to two counts of premeditated first-degree murder, but his defense still seeks to invoke the mental illness defense to contest sentencing.
• Ana and Dr. Tambora explain how this adds “whiplash” trauma for the family, dragging out the pain in legal proceedings.

“...at every move that Jack makes in his own defense is another insult and another injury to this family.”
— Ana Garcia [42:12]

"You and I talk all the time. The option that is not on the table is absolute justice... None of us are going to be happy by the outcome of this case."
— Dr. Tracy Tambora [44:10]

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9. Broader Reflections: Absolute Justice and Victim Advocacy

• [58:57] Dr. Tambora reaffirms her perspective both as a victim advocate and academic: the justice system can’t heal wounds or bring real closure.

“At the end of the day, Ana, what we always land on is, you know, victims deserve more justice than they're getting.”
— Dr. Tracy Tambora [58:57]

"There isn't [absolute justice], because you can't bring back what has been taken away."
— Ana Garcia [59:40]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Sibling Rivalry/Early Warning Signs:
  “Sibling rivalry is one of those motives when it comes to sibling violence.” — Ana Garcia [07:19]

• On Modern Honor Killing Echoes:
  “There is some notion of honor killing here in his rationale ... Will [such cases] resurface? ... I do think it's interesting to note that there is more chatter in social media about the role of women in a more traditional way than I've seen in a long time. I'd like to watch it.”
  — Dr. Tracy Tambora [32:13-32:54]

• On the Heartbreak for the Survivors:
  "This poor family. And this is. And, and you know, think about it. You're the. You're the parents. You've lost your daughter, your grandchild, yourself, your husband. Oh, my God. The husband. Oh, my God."
  — Ana Garcia [41:05]

• On the Futility of Perfect Justice:
  "There are better case scenarios and there are worst case scenarios. But none of us are going to be happy by the outcome of this case."
  — Dr. Tracy Tambora [44:54]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

| Time | Segment/Topic | |--------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:16 | Episode and case introduction; rarity of sibling homicide | | 07:19 | Sibling rivalry, family dynamics, and "purity" as motive | | 10:05 | Bethany's visit to Jack’s; family’s search and mother’s discovery | | 17:01 | Graphic details of the crime scene and dismemberment | | 19:01 | Insanity defense: process, myths, and consequences | | 29:17 | Gendered violence, religious delusion, and “honor killing” echoes | | 35:20 | The family’s trauma; impact on mother and family | | 36:56 | Legal strategy: guilty plea, sentencing, and mental illness claims | | 42:12 | Prolonged suffering for family during legal process | | 44:54 | Reflection: impossibility of absolute justice | | 58:57 | Closing thoughts: advocacy, complexity, and the realities of justice |

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The Comments Section (IVF Mix-Up Story)

[46:28–57:23]

• Will Updike shifts conversation to a viral IVF embryo mix-up lawsuit in Florida.
• Discussion touches on the unique trauma of being denied basic genetic answers, complicated family bonds, and concerns about privacy and institutional accountability.
• Audience comments focus on empathy for the child and outrage at the mistake, with everyone agreeing on the need for answers and care for the baby.

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Tone and Presentation

Throughout, Ana Garcia leads with empathy and a determination to highlight not just the legal intricacies but the profound human losses. Dr. Tracy Tambora brings a clinical but compassionate view, balancing academic expertise with heartfelt advocacy for victims. The conversation manages to be factual yet deeply human, alternating between careful analysis and visceral expressions of shock and sorrow.

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Summary

This episode pulls no punches, presenting a rare and devastating case of family violence with compassion, intelligence, and a determination to seek truth—even when perfect justice is impossible. Listeners gain a deeper understanding of the unique dynamics of sibling homicide, the difficult realities of mental illness defenses, and the profound, enduring pain of such crimes.

Listeners are reminded that for tragedies of this magnitude, there is no absolute justice—only a search for answers, accountability, and, hopefully, some support for the surviving victims.

Transcript

[Ana Garcia]

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[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

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[Ana Garcia]

Because I was so amazed by how quickly he replaced our air ducts, I knew I could trust him to change Pop Pop's tube while I was on vacation.

[Will Updike]

Make it quick young man. Aw.

[Ana Garcia]

See, Pop Pop trusts you.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

I think we should call a doctor.

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[Angie.com Advertiser]

Hey folks, Today we're sharing an episode from True Crime News, a podcast that dives deep into shocking real life cases and the investigations that follow. In this episode, the team explores a horrifying crime that highlights the darkest corners of human behavior. A man is accused of killing his pregnant older sister and later telling investigators he believes she was, quote unquote, no longer innocent. What led to such a brutal act and how did authorities piece together the truth? If you're interested in true crime reporting that goes beyond the headlines, take a listen to this episode and be sure to subscribe to True Crime News, the podcast for more episodes, uncovering the stories behind some of today's most disturbing headlines.

[Ana Garcia]

A word of Warning this podcast explores graphic and disturbing stories and and includes some strong language. It therefore may not be suitable for our young listeners or other folks who may find it disturbing. Hello and welcome to True Crime News, the podcast covering high profile and under the radar cases from across the country every week. I'm your host, Ana Garcia. Our case this week. The FBI describes it as one of the rarest forms of murder. When a brother kills a Sister. This type of homicide occurs for about 1 to 3% of all murders. So why did a 24 year old man kill his pregnant 30 year old sister? Prosecutors say they found the brothers journal where he wrote that his married sister who was expecting her first child was impure. He invited her over for dinner and then he chopped up her body. And the person who found her dead was their mother. That woman now has lost two her daughter, her grandchild and her son will likely be locked up for the rest of his life. We are recording this on Friday, January 30th of 2026. Our guest today is Dr. Tracy Tambora, a professor of criminal justice at the University of New Haven in Connecticut. She is an expert in the field of domestic violence and a dear friend of the show. Tracy, welcome back. It is so good to see you.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

Good to see you too. Happy 2026.

[Ana Garcia]

I can't believe it's 2026.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

2026.

[Ana Garcia]

Yes.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

It's already.

[Ana Garcia]

Oh my gosh. And we start the year with so much violence. So much violence. And this case, the reason I really wanted to examine this case is because of your expertise in domestic violence. But we're looking at a different dynamic. We're looking at siblings, which we don't often see. And they're, you know, the defense is claiming that the now admitted killer is suffering from mental illness. Sure. So I don't know what your thoughts are and we're going to get into the detail, but of just again how very little we see this sibling kind of killing, especially when it's not like over money or an estate.

[Will Updike]

Sure.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

So two points. One is a definitional issue. So I'm not sure I could classify it as domestic violence. I would probably call it family violence. In most states, domestic violence requires that there's some form of cohabitation. Again, I don't know if they were living together at some point. I'm sure they were living together. But it is definitely, we don't have to get caught up on semantics. It's definitely family violence. Point number two is very well taken. This is a very seldom documented form of family violence, or we can say domestic violence broadly because we see only about 2 to 300 cases per year of all types of offender victim murder in which the offender and victim are well acquainted or related. So yeah, it is a lesser known. But we do know that family violence includes sibling violence, including we have research on sibling child abuse, sibling incest, unfortunately. So it is not an unexpected form. But the fact that there is a homicide makes it statistically Less probable.

[Ana Garcia]

All right, so this case is out of Lakeville, Minnesota. The accused here is 24 year old Jack Ball and he's pleaded guilty to two counts of murder, premeditated first degree murder of his older sister, 30 year old Bethany Israel, and premeditated first degree murder of her unborn child. This happened in May of 2024. Bethany was reportedly carrying a baby boy whom they had named Levi. Very, very tragic, Very tragic.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

Very sad. And as you said, it's sad for not just the community, but also the mother who found her, who found the scene and who in one day loses the, the major part of her family, her daughter, grandchild to be, and her son who will inevitably end up in the criminal justice system for the rest of his life one way or another.

[Ana Garcia]

Yeah, I don't know how you reconcile that. I don't know how you as a parent and the rest of the family can deal with the loss of two lives and then knowing that it's at the hands of another family member. We often see this as parent and child and we see how children sometimes stand by their parents. This one's complicated because the relationships are radically different than parent and child.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

It is, right? It is.

[Ana Garcia]

So it is said. And I, and I almost feel like there's just a little bit of motive in this. It is said based on what was written in her obituary and you know, is she was given grace and praise by those missing her that Bethany was the favorite child of Mark and Judy Ball. And sibling rivalry is one of those motives when it comes to sibling violence. Right, sure, definitely.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

Yeah. That circled on my paper when I read that, I did my homework, so.

[Ana Garcia]

I know, I know, Professor.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

Yes, I did. I'm an A student. Yeah, sibling rivalry. I mean, we'll unpack this a little. There's so many layers. Right. There's the, the potential sib rivalry, the fact that he's very young, 24 years old, the crime is so horrific. Also is going to raise some red flags around mental health, which of course the prosecutors are confronting right now. And then finally you have his note, his concept and his own words. She wasn't pure. So we're also looking at another dimension which is, you know, rooted in violence against women, these preconceived notions about female purity, chastity, et cetera. So there's a bunch of layers here to unpack.

[Ana Garcia]

There really are. And we are missing a lot of details. And that's entirely possible because there's been a plea in this. However, the case doesn't end there because the Defense is claiming mental illness. And therefore, in the state of Minnesota, you can actually make an argument that you are not criminally responsible for. For the murder if you were not mentally well at the time, which really complicates things. So I have a feeling that when the next hearing comes, which will have to do with what the sentence will be, and his mental fitness will be a part of this broader discussion. We may then learn more details. So far, a lot of what was going on in the family and whether there was a history of mental illness with Jack. We don't have all those details, but we do have enough here to have a discussion. And again, it's the level of violence here, and it's the violence against a pregnant woman. This is horrific. So according to her obituary, Bethany had a lifelong love of music, and she played the flute and she loved volleyball. In fact, it was on the volleyball court that she met her soon to be husband, Joseph Israel. The pair married on April 30th of 2021. So they hadn't been married that long. They eloped to Jamaica, and the couple was ready to start a family. And Bethany was about four months pregnant when she was murdered. Bethany also obviously not only loved children because she was going to be a mother, but she also was a school teacher. So this is, you know, her entire world was about children. It's really unclear what was going on between the brother and the sister. You know, obviously, I'm guessing at the very minimum, there was some serious tension here, because I read things and it's just. It's just, you know, your gut telling you the fact that Bethany had been invited over to Jack's house for dinner, Jack invited her for dinner. And then when no one heard from her, this is the part she went over around 6pm on May 23rd of 2024. Okay. And so as a parent, you'd be so thrilled that your kids are having dinner. Right. That makes you so happy. But then when no one hears from Bethany and Bethany doesn't come home and it's 11 o', clock, there's a panic in the family, and the mother drives over to Jack's house. Now, here's the thing. Under normal circumstances, if you knew that your adult kids were safely having dinner together, sure, you probably wouldn't worry, would you?

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

Sure. I mean, those particular details, I wish we could unpack more. I wish we could get more information, because on the one hand, you have Bethany, who seems to accept an invitation to her brother's house. She goes, we don't yet know if that was something that happened on a regular basis, if it raised a red flag for the husband or the mother. But she goes. And then at some point, she's not responding to phone calls. So again, this is the part, right. As a criminologist who's reviewed cases, I've seen things that are easily explained and I've seen things that make no sense. Right. It's 11 o', clock, she was tired. She told her husband, imagine a scenario. She tells her husband, hey, I'll be home by 8 because I am exhausted. And then she's not home. The husband calls, are you okay? I just want to make sure you're not driving tired. So it doesn't raise a red flag for the family. But you could imagine another scenario. And in that first case, they're just calling because they know she's pregnant, tired, and it's not like her not to communicate. In the second scenario, mom has concerns because she has noticed odd behavior with her son. And when maybe the husband calls her and says, hey, have you heard from Bethany? I haven't. Mom calls, Bethany calls Jack, the son. No one is responding. And mom's like, let me see what's going on. But again, you could have a personal, you know, a perfectly reasonable explanation that doesn't raise red flags. Or, or we could. I think that's why all of us are so interested in crime, because there's 100 scenarios that we could each run through our head to try to explain the circumstances that took place in that two to three hours.

[Ana Garcia]

Yeah, absolutely. And you're right, it was early. I mean, if she went over at 6, I know for me, I'm like, okay, 8:30, I gotta go home now, I probably would not be out until 11. However, they are younger, you know, and if, let's say they're hashing something out. I don't know, I'm just speculating here if they're hashing something out or they're getting to the bottom of maybe some tension or anything like that. You can imagine those family conversations can go on forever. But you're right, the fact that she's not responding and it's the mother that drives over. Yeah.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

It's not the husband, it's the mother that drives over.

[Ana Garcia]

Yes, yes. So I, you know, I think something, something was going on there. I don't think that Jack just woke up and, you know, as his defense team says that he's mentally ill, I don't think that morning he's just like, okay, and today I am about to commit a murder. I Just sure, because there were journals, you know, it's not, this is not something that manifested. Plus I don't think these things just manifest overnight. So. And we've only been given a little bit of what's in those journals. I think there's a lot more. There's a lot more. And the fact that he already has entered his plea of guilty, you know. Yeah.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

I mean one of the things that right away is always a red flag for me when I'm looking at cases in which there's a young man is this age. I don't know, you know, I'm not a psychiatrist or a psychologist, but it's pretty well known in the social science academic community that somewhere between 18 and, and 25, 26 the Axis 1 mental health disorders start to kick in. These are some serious issues like a clinical bipolar or schizophrenia. These are things that start to take a toll not only in your mental health but your physical health. So again, it's just for me a variable that I need to consider. It's not an excuse, a justification, but it's something that in the back of my mind I'd like to more information. His age, the heinous nature of the crime. You know, if I had to put money or my credentials on it, I would say there is something mental health going on. I don't know if it reaches the level in which you can excuse culpability legally, but there are some variables that need to explore because there, there could very well be a mental health deterioration occurring at this time.

[Ana Garcia]

Yeah, absolutely. So Bethany's mother told police, eczema is

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[Ana Garcia]

as soon as she arrived, she saw Jack tearing out in his car.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

Right.

[Ana Garcia]

Not a good sign. Probably not a good sign. And that when mom walked into Jack's house, it was a bloodbath. The mother called 91 1. It was about 11pm and according to the criminal complaint, police found a large pool of blood on the kitchen floor. It was all over the kitchen cabinets and it was seeping under the sink. Police found body parts throughout the house. They also found the bloody tools that were used to chop up this pregnant woman to kill her and her baby. There were bloody knives, a saw, a hatchet. Near the stairway to the second floor. Police officers say they found several of Bethany's dismembered body parts. I mean, this is. And we're not even done because the crime scene extends beyond. He took other parts of his sister, her sister's, his sister's body took them with him. Police say they get a nine as they're trying to figure out what is going on in Jack's house. They get another 911 call saying that a residential says on their ring doorbell a man has delivered a bloody body part to their front door.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

Yeah.

[Ana Garcia]

So

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

these are going to be elements of the crime that will support, I don't know, successfully, but will support the defense attorney's claim that he is not mentally well. Again, this is the hard part. Right. Like perfectly sane people can dismember a body.

[Ana Garcia]

Yes.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

And even the body of somebody very close to them. And so trying to determine his sanity, his state of mind in that moment is going to require, it's going to require a lot of reflection. The other thing, I don't know if we want to go there yet or we want to keep reviewing the, the, the, the scene. But I'm always struck by how the general population assumes it's really easy to claim insanity and then you get off scot free. I don't. Do you want to go there now? Do you want to have that conversation?

[Ana Garcia]

Or we can, I mean, we can certainly touch on it. I think it's going to, we'll talk on it when we look at the Phase of what's next. But it's. Lots of people claim insanity. It is. It's a defense move.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

Sure.

[Ana Garcia]

And I think what infuriates people is how many people claim insanity to get off.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

Sure.

[Ana Garcia]

And really aren't. And so the level that it takes to prove to a court.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

Yes.

[Ana Garcia]

That someone really was incompetent is it, as I my understanding, it's. That is a very hard threshold.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

Less than 1%. Yeah.

[Ana Garcia]

Less than 1%.

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[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

You can claim insanity and many people do. But the. But. But to be able to use insanity in the court is very limited. Number one. But number two, it's actually not in your best interest, because if you are able to prove insanity at time of committing a crime, then you are held in some sort of legal limbo. So it doesn't mean you go out on the street. It means you are remanded to a criminal mental health facility for an indeterminate sentence. So often, if you. If you would have not pled insanity and okay, this is a heinous crime. We have the murder of a woman and the murder of an unburned child, you're probably up for life anyway. But if you claimed insanity on a less horrific murder involving less salacious details, maybe you're getting 15 to 20. But if you are able to prove insanity, you may be in a facility for 50 to 70 years the rest of your life. So I think the general public. Yes, many people claim insanity defense, but the process you have to go through that the judge requires you go through to be able to use the insanity defense is lengthy and it's improbable. Again, I think it's about 1% or less that you can actually use it as the defense, and then you're going away probably the rest of your life. It's an indeterminate sentence.

[Ana Garcia]

Although we have seen. Yes, yes, here's. And this is the part that also infuriates people, especially with the abuse of the insanity defense, is we've seen people go to a psychiatric facility.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

Yes.

[Ana Garcia]

A prison version of it. Then they're deemed competent. They've been in there a long enough time. Then they're deemed not a threat to society and they get released. Yes, yes.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

It's very rare. And the media loves these cases.

[Ana Garcia]

Yes.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

So then we think it's much more common than it is. But the other thing that can happen if you're pleading insanity, the judge needs to make a determination. Are you in. Is your competency in question at point of crime, or is your competency in question right now, because there's competency to stand trial. And so if drugs or some sort of therapeutic process can get you competence to stand trial, then even if it is you, you came in seemingly insane. If they can make you competent, sane enough, then you can still stand for criminal trial. The problem is, in this case, they're saying at time of offense, he didn't possess mens rea. Guilty mind. He was too insane to know the. That his actions were illegal, immoral, like that's. He's going to have a harder time with that. Not impossible, but he's going to have a pretty hard time because he did leave the scene. Usually when people are insane at the scene, they stay there. They. The police come and they're like, yeah, I did this, but what's the problem? Right. So he. This is a complex case, and I, you know, we're going to need many more details from the forensic report to understand what his state of mind was both in the moment of the murder and then leading up to the trial.

[Ana Garcia]

And this, to me is fascinating because the police say when they found him covered in blood.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

Sure.

[Ana Garcia]

They asked him the date.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

Yes. Right.

[Ana Garcia]

They asked him who the president was.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

Right.

[Ana Garcia]

And so he was able, even though he was covered in blood, and he had actually tried to harm himself and had cut his neck. So it was his blood, Bethany's blood. The man's a mess. But he's able to tell the police, sure, Some. Some information that is clear about his ability to perceive where he is and what the day is.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

Sure. And again, this is what the prosecutors are going to need to bring in expert testimony. Because you, you might be intellectually cognitive, but you could still be insane and vice versa. So this is where you're going to need expert testimony to evaluate him.

[Ana Garcia]

I do find this interesting. When the police ask the mother, where could he have gone? This is before the call comes in about the bloody part at the door. Just a random house. She told officers that he may have gone to a nearby cemetery in Rosemont where family members were buried. And I just think that's. That's just. It's extremely specific when I think of places to run after a murder.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

Well, that's why you're not a murderer, though.

[Ana Garcia]

Oh, well, thank you, Tracy.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

Yes. I say that with all my expert credentials behind me. You don't appear to be a murderer.

[Ana Garcia]

It's like, why would you go to a cemetery?

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

I. I don't know. Right. Again, these are things we need to understand about him. Is he. Has he been rapidly developing a severe and Acute mental health issue over the last few years. If so, then his decision to go to a place that's a bit macabre, morose, you know, fits in, lines up, is, does he have an infatuation with death? I mean, he seems to have a, you know, proclivity to murder in a hate, in a heinous way. So, yeah, these again, for me, they're, they're, they're variables that we need to explore, but they don't necessarily point to culpability. They do, if we're going to use a really technical criminological term. They are more telling of creepiness.

[Ana Garcia]

Yes, yes.

[Primally Pure Advertiser]

Or.

[Ana Garcia]

And in this creepiness, it's also entirely possible if he's ever disappeared or when things got tense, if this was where he was going. There's a reason the mother said the cemetery, you know, Right. You're. Because someone would ask my loved one or your loved one, where would she have run? And, you know, you'd really have to think of comfort, familiarity and places you've been before. But that again, there are these, there are little pieces of a puzzle here. We can't fill it all in, but it is certainly telling us a story about what was going on here. Definitely. Let's get back to Jack and the body parts that he's carrying around his sister. So that 911 call comes in and police go straight to that house and then they say that they find Jack's car and then they finally find Jack again covered in blood with a slash around his neck. But police said that he was still coherent, he was able to communicate, police said, clearly with them. They said in the police report and in the criminal complaint that he seemed competent at the time. I think that's interesting. I mean, again, he knew the date, the time, and the current president. Police say they also found additional pieces of his sister Bethany at different locations. Not just, I mean, it was multiple locations where they found this poor woman. So now let's get to the other incriminating evidence. So now we have the bloody scene at Jack's house. Jack is a mess. Obviously, DNA is going to tell a story there. Then there are the body parts at various locations, the fact that Jack has taken off. They find his journals, police say, and in the criminal complaint, they say that Jack has written some troubling details. They don't release all of them. But the police say that he expressed anger against his sister for being pregnant and he allegedly wrote that Bethany was no longer innocent. Now, here's my logical problem with this. Your sister married A few years ago. Okay, she's older than you, so sorry, but she's married. So where's this innocence part coming? And now we're talking about a baby which is, you know, this is a blessing, right?

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

It does present a bit of a quandary, right, because if you had somebody who there are schizophrenics or there are very mentally ill people who are obsessed with strict interpretation of religious law, law. And so, you know, but this would seem contradictory, right, because you would think if somebody was obsessed with some sort of traditional religious doctrines in which women are no longer innocent, once, you know, the male touch has been placed upon them, you probably wouldn't kill the baby. So that's quite interesting. The other part that's interesting for me, as somebody who worked in the field, victims of domestic violence, sexual assault, and my area of expertise is not just domestic violence, sexual assault, but the concept of violence against women. It really is fascinating to me because this almost signals some sort of antiquated, I thought, long gone mentality about the notion of female innocence and purity. But every so often a case like this would. Will arise, which tells me, you know, we're not that far away from having these traditionally antiquated notions of the female body. Again though we have a problem because she's married. So most individuals who accept these very antiquated notions of the female purity and sanctity think that that is, that that once the. There is a true and valid marriage, then it is, you know, sexual contact between male and female is permissible. There was one little part that made me wonder though. Do you remember the, the part of the story, the part of the information in which she elopes to Jamaica to get married?

[Ana Garcia]

Yes.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

So what if it. Again, I'm just looking at variables. What if this is somebody who has a form of mental illness that is, that really concentrates on this religiosity and she wasn't married in some sort of a church setting. Again, I'm grasping here, but that those two things juxtapose each other did make me say, hmm, this is strange because he doesn't accept the sanctity of her marital union. He still calls her words like not innocent and unpure, which strange. And then the final one that it makes me think about again, I mean, at least in this country, we should be 150 years away from honor killings.

[Ana Garcia]

We should be right.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

We should be right. And so you have this brother who there is some notion of honor killing here in his rationale is she's not pure, she's not innocent. I'm her brother. I need to remedy this. So there's just some, like, socio, political and historic layers here for me that are really interesting. This isn't a typical killing. So I'm not saying, oh, honor killings are going to come back. We're moving to a new era. Although I see more notions and questioning of women's purity and social media now than I did maybe 15 or 20 years ago. I don't think it's going to resurface to. To the point that this kind of case is going to be common. But I do think it's interesting to note that there is more chatter in social media about the role of women in a more traditional way than I've seen in a long time. I'd like to watch it.

[Ana Garcia]

Do you find it interesting that she's the older sister? I almost feel like if she had been the younger sister, some of this might have made. Please. And I'm using this term loosely, might have made sense, because none of this makes sense. And here we are trying to. Look, I don't know what his mental state was, but this entire thing, this is lunacy. This is craziness. So trying to unravel and apply logic to his reasoning is. I understand people. Ridiculous. Right, I get that. But we are trying to understand what happened to this woman and to this baby and trying to understand how this fits in and what justice is gonna look like as we examine these cases. I think, you know, I just.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

Yeah, no, again, I think I. I hear where you're going with that. Would there. Would it have been more rational? And again, I'm using words that don't quite apply to this case. Would it have made more sense if she was the younger sister and he thought, you know, he. The family was offended and he needed to remedy this. Or, you know, you could also argue the other way that it was his older sister. She was always there for him. Now she's having a baby that's going, mother complex.

[Ana Garcia]

This is where I'm going. Yeah.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

Right. So he's going to lose.

[Ana Garcia]

He's jealous on a whole other level.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

Yes. He. Right. Could this be? Sure.

[Ana Garcia]

Yeah. Is. There's a lot going on here? There is a lot going on here. And it's just. Oh, this whole thing is just. It's just so horrendous. In fact, Bethany's body was in such terrible shape, meaning the way it was pulled apart, destroyed, and tossed all over town, that the medical examiners had a hard time pinpointing the exact cause of death. And we don't see that a lot. Usually we get a pretty good indication. So the cause of death has been listed as complex homicidal violence. And they noted that she was between 17 and 18 weeks pregnant. Yeah.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

So the medical examiner cannot say blunt force trauma to the head. The medical examiner cannot say strangulation. Right. The, the state of the body is. Is such that the actual cause of death, was it the severing of the femoral artery? Was it the severing of the, you know, arteries in, in the neck? Was it puncture to the heart? I mean, these are. The medical examiner can't even begin to unpack that. And so he's using. He or she. The medical examiner is using this very

[Ana Garcia]

generic label, which really means we have to really think carefully when we try and have the compassion for Bethany and her baby. What this woman was put through by her own brother.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

Sure.

[Ana Garcia]

He admitted. He admitted to it. This is beyond. This is beyond. And again, that poor mother walking into this, seeing her baby daughter, the grandchild, and then knowing that her son is responsible for this. I don't even know how you wake up in the morning. I don't even know. So after his arrest, Jackson died it on two counts of premeditated first degree murder and two counts of intentional second degree murder. During his first court appearance, he appeared via video conferencing from the hospital. His bail was set at 1 million with conditions. 2 million without conditions. The fact, the fact that anyone would have considered bail without conditions, and I realized it was a $2 million and he wasn't going to reach it. Why even put that on the table? That's.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

I'm sorry.

[Ana Garcia]

Yeah, nothing, man. Cannot be released. Cannot be released. So I don't know what was going on there. So once Jack was medically cleared, he returned back to the custody of the Dakota County Jail. Now, Jack's defense attorney told prosecutors and the judge that Jack suffers from mental illness. But prosecutors at this point were like, whatever, we're moving forward with this case. On January 21st this year, not too long ago, prosecutors announced that Jack had pleaded guilty to counts of one in three in the indictment. So basically, Jack has accepted responsibility for one count of premeditated 1st degree murder and one count of premeditated first degree murder of an un born child. So we would think in this case we are looking perhaps at swifter justice, that the family will be spared the pictures, the body cam, everything, whatever Jack was saying at the scene, covered in his sister's blood and his blood. But we're really not we're really not being spared here because now the matter. And it is his right. His. His right and his defense attorney's right, they've thrown. It's not. Well, I'm going to call it a wrench, but it's, you know, an absolute permitted legal move that in this state of Minnesota, a person cannot be held criminally responsible if mental illness prevented them from understanding their actions or the difference between right and wrong at the time of the offense. So that's what they're claiming. And now, you know, generally a judge will decide what the sentence will be, but this. There's going to have to be a hearing. It is about sentencing, but it's also about his mental health in order to understand how to proceed with sentencing. It's. What I'm saying is there's another layer. It's complicated. It's a move, you know, maybe to get. Not Jack. Not to have him completely get off.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

But no, it appears that he pled guilty. Right?

[Ana Garcia]

Yeah, He. He definitely. He's. He has entered his guilty plea to two murders. So he is done. Right.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

So he is convicted of murder. What is happening now is there is a second phase. I don't know if Minnesota uses a bifurcated trial phase or. Or it is the sentencing phase. What's happening now? His guilt is not in question. He's guilty of the two of the two indictments. He's guilty of the two counts.

[Ana Garcia]

But he can always, you know, here's. And I've seen this before, he can. He can take back that plea.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

He could take back. He can. He can take back the plea up into a. Up into a point. But it appears here that what is being contested is the punishment is the sec. And so what Jack is saying, under Minnesota law, I. I don't want to be held criminally responsible in terms of incarceration in a penitentiary.

[Ana Garcia]

Oh, yeah, I wouldn't want. Yeah, right. Because Jack doesn't want to be held responsible for his actions. Oh, that's right.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

But he. Again, it doesn't mean that Jack is going to be walking free among us. He. Correct. He may be institutionalized for the rest

[Ana Garcia]

of his life, but here's. I think what the next move is going to be. So at some point, Jack's gonna realize things didn't go his way. Right. And I'm a bitter man now, and I'm scribbling away and my journal's all crazy. And now I'm gonna tell the legal system, you know what? When I entered that plea, I was crazy. I didn't know what I was doing. I'm sorry, but I just.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

Listen, you and I are no fan of Jack. I get that. Jack, you know, we're not having Jack for dinner. Regardless of what happens. Jack did a horrendous thing in which the lives of an entire family are devastated.

[Ana Garcia]

Oh, my God. I can't. This poor family. And this is. And, and you know, think about it. You're the. You're the parents. You've lost your daughter, your grandchild, yourself, your husband. Oh, my God. The husband. Oh, my God.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

He lost his child in his life.

[Ana Garcia]

Yeah. And then, you know, you're dealing with whatever it is that Jack is going to try and do to defend himself. We're not saying he's going to get away with this, but I have seen this before where you enter a plea, then all of a sudden you're taking your plea back because it's not working the way you think it was going to. And because he's, you know, his defense is claiming mental instability. There's the potential here to, to make a claim that, oh, well, I couldn't have entered that plea in my right mind. You know, I can. And every move in his defense, and I hope I'm saying this right, is almost another injury to the family as they get like emotional whiplash of what's happening now with Jack's case. Because it's not like they can just push Jack away completely. Especially since they are witnesses and they are victims and they get, you know, survivor and victim impacts. So do you see what I'm saying? At every move that Jack makes in his own defense is another insult and another injury to this family. Yes. And that's. And that's the part. It's that additional pain. And I know, I mean, you can think like, how can you inflict any more pain? But it's just like. Just makes that wound just more raw. And that's what upsets me about all this. Yeah.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

Anyway, we have a myriad of outcomes, Right. Jack accepts the plea and he attempts to use mental illness to prevent him from being incarcerated in a penitentiary. It doesn't work. He gets life in prison. In a prison. Okay. He gets life. Life in a prison. Number two, it works. But now he has life in a state run forensic institution which is. It's very similar to a prison.

[Ana Garcia]

Yeah.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

Or number three, they Jack pulled. I mean, there's probably five now that I'm going through this. Jack says, oh, no, I'm gonna. I want to rescind the plea. If I was his defense attorney, I'd say, don't do it, Jack. It's clear you killed her. A, we've got you. We've got the evidence. And B, you already, you already gave testimony to this. And then they go after another sentence. Because a lot of times judges and prosecutors do not like it when you enter a plea. In fact, in particular, if you enter a plea to try to lessen the burden on the family that's left and then you rescind that plea, okay, they're going to go after. The prosecutor is going to go after the, you know, the, the, the charge and the punishment without any mercy or without any consideration for Jack's mental state. I mean, there's a lot of options that could happen, unfortunately. Anna, you and I talk all the time. The option that is not on the table is absolute justice. There is no such thing. We are not going to get an outcome that makes us feel happy about this situation. A woman and her unborn child are dead. A family is affected. You may or may not have a very mentally ill man who may or may not also be rattled with guilt. I don't know. It's just a very. You have a husband who's lost his wife and child. Right? This is a mess. And I know people like me and you who study crime victimization for a living. We have to accept there's no such thing as absolute justice. There are better case scenarios and there are worst case scenarios. But none of us are going to be happy by the outcome of this case.

[Ana Garcia]

No, no, it's. It is. This is a huge tragedy. This is a huge tragedy for Bethany, her family, the new family that she was starting. It's. It's a massive loss. So this new hearing to figure out what happens next with Jack and his mental state is going to be. It's scheduled now for May 24th first. So we are going to follow this case and those of you who know when I say that, I really mean it. We do follow and update cases until then, and I think this is interesting, he remains behind bars at the Dakota County Jail, not in a psychiatric facility or hospitalized. So. So I. I just have prayers. Prayers for Bethany and baby Levi.

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[Ana Garcia]

all times Pausa rapida algo util TikTok tiene rutinas gratis Porto dos lados entrenencasa que magrasa ganamusculo sin coach sin contrato the gym solo da le play y muevete descarga TikTok aura. It is time for our comments section. These are the crime cases that you all are talking about on social media. And here is our producer, Will Updike. Hey, Will, how are you?

[Will Updike]

Good. How's it going?

[Ana Garcia]

Good, thanks.

[Will Updike]

So we have another complicated sort of family case. This one involves like a major mix up. This one comes out of Orange County, Florida, where a couple has recently filed a lawsuit alleging that a fertility clinic mixed up embryos leading to.

[Ana Garcia]

Oh my gosh, I saw this, this, oh my God.

[Will Updike]

Leading to the birth of a baby that, that wasn't biologically there. So I kind of want to get into this in one. I was really interested what, what people would think in the comments sort of about how to unfold this whole situation because it is very, very, you know, it is very bizarre. It is very complicated. But according to Orlando couple Tiffany Score and Stephen Mills, they began pursuing in vitro fertilization with IVF Life Inc. Beginning in 2020. And the couple reportedly was able to fertilize three of Tiffany's embryos and the eggs were kept in cryogenic storage for later usage. In 2025, the couple, you know, felt ready to have a baby. They returned and they were able to successfully implant one of those around April of last year. And miraculously, the couple gives birth to a happy, healthy female child. But something doesn't seem quite right. The child doesn't resemble them. Tiffany and Steven are both racially Caucasian. The child immediately like racially and physically does not appear to be theirs. Now, despite this issue, you know, we've heard of, of, of things happening. You know, you hear of stories of couples, you know, giving birth not even an ivf and their child looking different. And even though this childlike doesn't resemble them physically, the couple says they developed an intensely strong, strong emotional bond with the child. You know, it seems like we've got, you know, some good parents here, some people who are really hoping for the best outcome. And even though maybe things right away don't, don't, don't seem, you know, they seem like a different situation. It seems like they're still moving forward this, with this, you know, in an amicable way. However, around the beginning of this year, the couple began to worry that maybe they had been given the wrong embryo. And this starts to concern the parents because if the child wasn't theirs and it was someone else's, where is their baby?

[Ana Garcia]

Exactly.

[Will Updike]

They're thinking, their lawsuit says, and this is a direct quote, that the girl should legally and morally be united with her genetic parents so long as they are fit, able and willing to take her. So the parents end up paying for DNA testing. And unfortunately, this child does bear no DNA resemblance to the parents, meaning the embryo. This is like the crazy part, like, so meeting this embryo that they placed in Tiffany was not one of the ones that her and her husband produced, which opens up this whole other can of worms. Now, I do want to note here because, like, we got some people who are sort of angry in the comments. I do want to know, this couple isn't giving up on the baby. Like, they haven't done this to be like, you know, this isn't, this isn't ours. We're done with the child. They're more than happy to keep the child. They've bonded with the child. However, they do have concerns about what happened to their embryos and if they have other babies out there.

[Ana Garcia]

So complicated. Many emotions.

[Will Updike]

Yes. And again, like to. To bring it back to the parents. Like the, you know, the people who produced this, this, this embryo, it not going to them, you know, so there's, there's kind of like a whole sort of moral quandary there. Now, the lawsuit, it doesn't mention anything about damages or anything like that. So I want to get that out of the gate too. They're seeking an explanation and testing going back about five years to confirm, you know, the. The biological parents of the child and to see if any of their embryos are out there, you know, somewhere else in the ether. Now, the clinic has raised privacy concerns for other parents. They're saying that the patients would have to agree to be tested. However, a judge ordered the clinic to support, to submit detailed plans on how it's addressing this situation. And according to the clinic, they are actively cooperating with an investigation to support one of our patients in determining the source of an error that resulted in the birth of a child who is not genetically related to them. And now, from what I was reading, too, it's unclear how this mix up could have happened. This could have happened back in 2020 when they initially gave the sample. You know, maybe something was mixed up then. It could have happened later when the embryo was placed around 20, 25. So there's a whole lot of issues going on there. But I do think that it seems like these parents are, you know, they're not, like, casting this baby aside or anything, which I do think is, like, is very, very important.

[Ana Garcia]

No. And, you know, and the genetic testing is actually interesting because you might say, okay, well, they might have looked at the baby and said, oh, you know, we're such. We are racially such different from such different backgrounds that it couldn't be mine. Not necessarily, because you have to factor this entire investigation is, was it possible that the baby was maybe half of theirs? You don't know what happened in this clinic. Right. So first you have to figure out, is it possible that the baby is partly of the father, partly of the mother? Okay. Now they've determined that there are no parts. So then this baby absolutely belongs to a different set of different biological parents. And then this raises the moral and legal question of what happened to their embryos. Were their embryos ever actually truly viable and made of both of their genetic material?

[Will Updike]

Yeah.

[Ana Garcia]

Was it mixed up. Was their genetic material mixed up with other people's? And you have, like, now, like, four sets of babies, or were the embryos implanted in another? I mean, the. The possibilities here are endless. And they absolutely have a right to an answer. And so. And that baby has a right to an answer. What about the baby's rights?

[Will Updike]

Yeah.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

It also doesn't seem so complex, like, privacy of the other people, because you already have the sperm and egg of all of these people. They voluntarily gave you the sperm and egg, so just start testing it until you come across one.

[Will Updike]

Yeah.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

Might be costly, but I'm not buying their privacy thing. Because you think this.

[Will Updike]

You think this is BS they don't

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

want to admit to, like, hey, this agency, you. What do you. Could. You already have everyone's DNA material? Just go through it, test it, and see where the match comes.

[Will Updike]

Yeah.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

The second part is, like, this poor. This poor couple. Because I think, like Anna said, It's 20, 26 now. If mom's egg was harvested six years ago when she was in her early 30s, and now she has to go through this whole process again in her late 30s or early 40s. The viability of all this. I just think that this shady agency company doesn't want to deal with all the potential cost that could play out well.

[Will Updike]

And that's the thing, too, right? Is like, you know, there's at a minimum two families and two and two children here. One would think, right? Like, unless these embryos weren't multiple. Exactly. Exactly. So, I mean, I, I'm with Tracy here. I think that, I think that it's not a privacy issue so much as like, who knows how, how deep this, this whole thing could go. And then you have the, again, like the deeper thing of. So then what do you do, like, what do you do with all the, like, if there's a bunch of like mismatched donors and children and stuff that

[Ana Garcia]

is just really something I don't. And then the question will also be, was this an error or. I'm sorry, but we have seen people in the medical profession do very harmful things. So I have no idea. I am not blaming, putting any criminal blame anywhere because there are no criminal charges. But what if it's more than error? And what if it goes from error into a deliberate action? Allegedly.

[Will Updike]

Yeah, yeah. Who knows? Who knows? So we, we got kind of like a couple of camps in the comments. Nina H. Said the parents look like twins. We got a lot of comments about how similar the parents look. I'll show a picture for the video viewers. You know, they're both dark, they both have dark eyes, blonde hair, very similar looking couple. So I think it was like pretty apparent, you know, like that the baby was different genetically. But like we said, there's all sorts of things that can happen. You know, you hear about all sorts of stuff happening. Even siblings sometimes look so vastly different. And then Aline W. Said, poor sweet, precious baby. I wish I could take her. We got a lot of people in the comments who are like, you know, they would keep the baby. They want the baby. There's a ton of people.

[Ana Garcia]

She has rights. We can't forget that the baby has rights here.

[Will Updike]

Yeah, yeah, but I do, like, again, I do want to bring it back to like I do. It does seem like the parents are handling this pretty amicably from their side. They just want information, they want answers, which, you know, is not only for them but for the benefit of the child as well.

[Ana Garcia]

How are they going to answer the child's obvious questions? Yeah, she's able to say, you know, where did I come from? And they're going to be like, we really don't know.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

Yeah, this is real stork situation.

[Ana Garcia]

No idea where this baby came from. She has a right to know.

[Will Updike]

I'll close this one with a comment from another writer who I think wraps this all up. Well, they said, I don't think it's wrong to sue because it's definitely a major screw up. But I really hope they do right by the kiddo, which is sort of like the overwhelming thing. Right. Like, we're just hoping for the best for. For the child in this scenario. But it does seem like something. Something very wrong took place. And, you know, like, while the result is a human being and you. You love them, it seems like this family has bonded to them. They still deserve information and answers about how this occurred.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

And also, let's not forget that this mother carried the child.

[Will Updike]

I know. Yeah.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

In fact, she served as some sort of de facto surrogate. Yeah. I mean, that's. Of course, she's attached and connected to the child. Yeah.

[Will Updike]

Yeah.

[Ana Garcia]

How could you not be? Absolutely. Absolutely. Wow. That's complicated.

[Will Updike]

Yeah. Yeah. So I'll be keeping an eye on this one. We'll see if we get any more updates on this. I mean, like I said, this could just be the start of, like, a very long rabbit hole, so who knows? But that will do it for this week's comment section. Anna, we're so happy that you're back, but I will see y' all next week.

[Ana Garcia]

Tracy, it is always such a pleasure to have you on. I always feel like I'm in a classroom. I'm in Dr. Tambora's class, and it's wonderful. It's just like you always explain things to us and you give us a different perspective. So I always look forward to. When you're on, where can people follow you and all that good stuff? Because I know you're. You're working on your social media there.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

I know I do have Instagram now, so you can find me at. Tracy, what do you say? Dot Tambora.

[Ana Garcia]

That's what it is. Yeah.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

Or my. If you want to see my academic work, you can look at the University of New Haven's website. But. Yeah, thank you so much. And again, you know, I hope that your audience understands I. As a victim advocate, this is. I spent my first nine years of my career in the field, but once I became a. An academic, you know, you do all. You spend five more years in school. You know, I have to be able to see both sides, and it in no way means that I'm excusing perpetrator behavior. It's just sometimes you. You. It's much more complex. But at the end of the day, Anna, what we always land on is, you know, victims deserve more justice than they're getting.

[Ana Garcia]

Always. Yeah, always. I don't think we've ever found a case where there's been something like an absolute justice. There isn't, because you can't bring back what has been taken away at all, at all, at all. But the conversation is always about what would justice look like and what, you know, and we do as a society have a voice, and we do have a voice when it comes to laws and electing prosecutors, DAs, all of that. So we, we have a say, although limited in the process, on what we in our community believe is right. And I think it's important to express these things and to have these conversations and to always remember the victims. And I think that's why I find you just so fascinating to talk to because of your field experience, plus the academics. And you put that together in a, in a different package for us and explain things for us. And, and so it's greatly appreciated.

[Dr. Tracy Tambora]

Thank you.

[Ana Garcia]

Thank you. You can find me at Anna gnews Anna with one n. You can find everything that we do here at True Crime news at my TrueCrimeNews. Kind of pretty simple there. You can subscribe to our YouTube page. You can also receive our [e-mail] so until next week, this is True Crime News, the podcast. I'm your host, Ana Garcia. Crime never stops, and neither do we.