Quid Pro Quo, Revisited

Summary

RISK! — “Quid Pro Quo, Revisited”
Host: Kevin Allison
Guests: Ed Gavigan, Ophira Eisenberg
Release Date: March 17, 2026

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Episode Overview

This special episode of RISK! revisits Ed Gavigan’s harrowing story “Quid Pro Quo,” originally told in 2015, about his experiences with child sexual abuse and its aftermath. This time, it also includes a raw, candid conversation between Ed and fellow storyteller Ophira Eisenberg, recorded ten years later. The episode dives into surviving trauma, the complexities of institutional betrayal, and the life-long impacts of abuse, through personal storytelling and reflection.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Power of Storytelling for Survivors

• Transformation Through Storytelling: Ed shares how telling one’s story not only helps others feel less alone, but also shifts the burden of shame off the victim.
  • Ed recalls how, after live performances, audience members would approach to share their own experiences:
    • “People will stand behind the person telling me their story, waiting to tell me their story. And you’re kind of like, okay, I just finished. Thank you. And I feel for you. And can you just email me?” (04:13, Ed)
  • Ophira notes that audience reactions highlight overlooked details and help redefine what being “seen and heard” really means (05:00, Ophira).
• Side Effects of Vulnerability: For both storytellers, sharing these narratives opens unexpected emotional exchanges and resonates deeply, offering solidarity and collective healing.

2. Ed’s Story: Survival and Betrayal

[Story Segment Begins ~05:48; ends ~20:01]

• Childhood and Abuse:
  • Ed recounts a turbulent upbringing—an abusive father, financial hardship, and relocation to Wyoming.
  • A new Catholic bishop includes Ed in household chores, then systematically grooms and abuses him under the guise of confession (12:02).
    • “He goes, listen, pull down your pants. You’re going to have to show me what you do when you think about girls… The church has been really good to your family, and it would just be a shame if all of that came to an end because you cannot confess your sins.” (13:12–14:32, Ed)
  • Ed describes the calculus of survival: the impossible choice between his family’s stability and his own safety (15:54).
  • He later learns this bishop had previously been relocated after another victim’s suicide (18:53).
• Institutional Complicity:
  • The bishop was transferred by the church to Wyoming, not out of ignorance, but as a cover-up after abuse allegations elsewhere.

3. Processing the Past, Then and Now

• Reflection Ten Years Later
  • Ophira asks Ed what it’s like to listen back:
    • “I remember feeling lost, like, thinking to myself, I’m going to burst into tears. What am I going to tell right now that I can wrap my head around? That will kind of divert my emotion.” (20:34, Ed)
  • Ed becomes emotional remembering details of poverty and the complexities of being labeled as “the poor people” even by the church (21:13).
• Symbols of Deprivation and Privilege:
  • The memory of “honey roasted cashews” stands out as a symbol of decadence he wasn’t allowed to enjoy, now forever tainted by association (24:08–24:50).

4. The Lifelong Impact of Trauma and Authority

• Missing Father Figures and Lack of Trust:
  • After losing his father and being betrayed by other supposed mentors, Ed notes: “I’ve never had a mentor… That guy kind of tried to be a mentor, and he wasn’t. There was no sexual overtone, nothing. It was just that this person is in a position of power or authority… and I’m not going to bond with them and I’m not going to be vulnerable.” (39:21–39:56)
• Problems with Authority:
  • Ed ties later struggles with authority figures—parents, clergy, cops—back to these formative betrayals (38:24).
    • “There could be no worse example than [my father] in terms of protecting the innocent. And the same with the bishop.”

5. The Culture of Silence and Cover-Up

• Community Denial:
  • Ed describes the insulation of abusers due to their “good deeds” and the disbelief of communities and even his own mother (34:01–35:05).
  • “His charitable good works were a shield. They weren’t coming out of goodness. They were coming out of—I am going to need people to back me up if this shit ever hits the fan.” (34:34, Ed)
• Institutional Response:
  • After a documentary (“Procession”) was made featuring Ed and other survivors, Ed writes to the Pope, only to be connected to a canonical lawyer who asks if he’s preparing a lawsuit.
  • The church’s “punishment”: restrict the bishop’s access to youth, but not remove him from the priesthood—a gesture of liability avoidance more than justice (45:01–46:50).
  • “If you do believe me, then you need to follow where that goes, and this man should not remain a priest… What you have is a retired bishop who can’t teach Sunday School, and that’s OK with you?” (46:27, Ed)

6. The Creative Aftermath and Its Limits

• Making the Documentary and Building Community:
  • Working on “Procession” for Netflix with other abuse survivors offers ongoing solidarity and a form of justice absent from the official channels (32:34–33:59).
• Reframing Shame and Seeking Justice:
  • “Lifting shame” by confronting the truth in public becomes liberation for Ed and others.
  • Ed: “I’m not ashamed. I am a victim. And I am also—I’m where I am in my life, which is that I can get up on stage and talk about this.” (42:56, Ed)
• No Real Church Consequences:
  • Despite public testimony and a widely acclaimed documentary, legal and institutional consequences are negligible.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Aftermath of Storytelling:

  “Part of it was that what I found out from doing the documentary was lifting shame. And so this was the first time I had ever told people I didn’t know the story.” (42:18, Ed)

• On Institutional Betrayal:

  “At the end of the day, you’re going to have pedophile clergy, you’re going to have crooked cops… But it’s the institution that should have done the right thing.” (18:53, Ed)

• On Shame and Responsibility:

  “Again, the shame does not go on my mother. It doesn’t go on me. The shame goes on that guy, right? ... Now they have a word for it, it’s called grooming.” (36:15, Ed)

• On The Church’s Response:

  “‘We cannot with moral certainty say that what you’re accusing him of actually happened, but we’re going to restrict his access to youth.’” (46:37, Ed)

• Black Humor as Survival:

  "You should see the view from in here." (41:06, Ed, in response to people saying “Glad you’re okay now”) Ophira laughs: "Why does that make me laugh so much? Because people say it to me. Well, that's why I always have a problem when someone, instead of saying, 'How are you?' goes, 'You good?' I'm just like, 'No, you.'" (41:12, Ophira)

• Ophira’s Final Word:

  “God is dead. That’s what I have to say to that.” (47:06, Ophira)

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Important Timestamps

• 05:48–20:01 — Ed’s full, uninterrupted “Quid Pro Quo” story
• 20:14–24:08 — Conversation: emotional aftermath of telling the story, symbols of privilege/deprivation
• 25:30–28:23 — Backstory on family, early Catholic life, and more on community blindness/complicity
• 30:11–33:59 — Discussion of the network of abusive priests, documentary “Procession,” and attempts at legal recourse
• 39:21–39:56 — Effects on mentorship, inability to trust authority figures
• 41:06–41:12 — Ed and Ophira’s wry exchange about responses to survivor stories
• 45:01–46:50 — Detailed account of the church’s “moral certainty” dodge and hollow discipline
• 47:06–47:13 — Ophira’s summation of institutional betrayal (“God is dead. That’s what I have to say to that.”)

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Tone & Language

The tone is unflinching, unsentimental, and direct, with moments of dark humor as a means of survival. Both Ed and Ophira blend empathy, candor, wry observation, and righteous anger, remaining ‘remarkably real’ in the signature style of RISK!. Speaker language is preserved as much as possible for authenticity.

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a profound meditation on broken trust, survival, and the power and cost of telling the truth. For survivors and allies alike, “Quid Pro Quo, Revisited” underscores both the pain of the past and the radical hope of breaking cycles of silence. The episode is both sobering and empowering—offering solidarity, demanding accountability, and refusing to let shame flourish in the shadows.

Transcript

[Kevin Allison]

Hello, folks. This is Risk, the show where people tell true stories they never thought they'd dare to share. I'm Kevin Allison, and today we're revis by Ed Gee that he told on risk back in 2015, plus a conversation that he had with his good friend Ophira Eisenberg a whole decade later. Now, both are brilliant storytellers and longtime friends of the show, and we're just so honored that they recorded this thoughtful and heartfelt conversation for us. Now, this story concerns child sexual abuse. Other than that, after a quick break, we'll revisit Quid Pro Quo with Ed G And Ophira Eisenberg.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

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[Ed Gavigan]

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[Ophira Eisenberg]

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[Ed Gavigan]

hello, it's Zed Gavigan. I have been listening to Kevin Allison for more than 10 years live. And I would go to those shows in basements and small theaters, and one day I decided to get up and tell a story according to the theme of Risk, a thing that I had not talked about. And this was in 2015. Gosh, more than 10 years ago. And it was a very difficult story to tell. I hadn't done a lot of preparation. And so listening to that today, I wanted to have my dear friend Ophira, storytelling compatriot. We've told stories all across America together for, I would say, 10 years now. And we commiserate on marriage and parenting and storytelling. And we've trauma. And also trauma. Forget. Don't forget the trauma. That's the original bond.

[Ed Gavigan (storytelling segment)]

Yeah.

[Ed Gavigan]

Thank you for coming.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

Oh, my pleasure. And the one thing, as you will hear as soon as we roll this story, is that every one of Ed's stories, obviously, they are incredibly well crafted because he's a great storyteller, as you will hear, but also, especially with this one, the topics that you decide to tackle from your life are difficult ones that people don't necessarily bring to light. And also, I think ultimately, when you tell these stories, people come up to you afterwards and they divulge a lot about themselves. They do, because they feel like they finally heard someone talk to them. About something that they've been holding onto.

[Ed Gavigan (storytelling segment)]

Yeah.

[Ed Gavigan]

And I hadn't understood that. This story was probably the fourth or fifth time I'd ever been up on stage. Like, I had started telling stories with the moth, I think 2009. And I told a couple of stories and then I decided to do the risk story. But having people come up afterwards is a really potent side effect that I never understood. I know, and you must have that as well.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

Yeah. And the things that they point out are the things that you maybe even glossed over while you're crafting the story. Because when we're making these things fit for listen entertainment, ultimately we look at them a little bit differently and they

[Ed Gavigan]

kind of want to tell you their whole story. And people will stand behind the person telling me their story, waiting to tell me their story. And you're kind of like, okay, I just finished. Thank you. And I feel for you. And can you just email me?

[Ophira Eisenberg]

I just want a tequila. I wanted tequila in a dark order. I know sometimes I've had that experience myself after stories and I've thought, God, maybe I need to get a social work degree to tell these stories.

[Ed Gavigan]

But you realize how important it is people hear that social media, someone else, and a lot of times it's bound up with shame where they're like, oh my gosh, this person just got up and said, the thing that I've been hiding, removed it.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

In 2015, we certainly didn't run around and talk about being seen and heard. That is a very new way of expressing that. But that is the perfect words. I think of what happens when you tell a story that people have some inroads into personally and you allow the vulnerability that makes them, by listening, feel seen and heard.

[Ed Gavigan]

Yeah, well, yeah. And you feel like, oh, that thing that felt so particular to me is actually much, awfully, much more calm.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

Yeah. Much more universal.

[Ed Gavigan]

Should we listen to quid pro quo?

[Ophira Eisenberg]

I'd love to. Let's do it.

[Ed Gavigan]

All right, here we go.

[Ed Gavigan (storytelling segment)]

My family ended up in Wyoming when I was about 12 years old because my dad was in the military. Most people think of Wyoming in terms of nature and wildlife and Yellowstone, But I think if Wyoming seceded from the United States, it'd be like the sixth largest nuclear power in the world. So there's all these nuclear missiles out there. My dad was in the military, so we. And he was guarded the nuclear missile bases. He started out as a drill sergeant, but then he was court martialed for brutality. Now, if you can imagine how brutal you have to be as A drill sergeant in 1968 sending men to Vietnam to be court martialed. That's my dad. So he ended up military police, which says all you need to know about that trajectory. But he was my dad. And so I had a high and tight crew cut every two weeks until we got to Wyoming. The long fuse that was my parents marriage finally detonated when we were there, which was as far away from any family members or friends or anyone we knew. And my dad was just the kind of guy that could punch a pregnant wife and have no problems with it. And like there were days I couldn't go to school because my mom would keep me home till the black eyes were gone. And it was just terrible. Like he would be beating my mother and I would jump on his back at 10 to try and stop him and then he'd throw me and keep going with her. At the end of the, the whole thing, he ends up leaving one night in a huff and cleaned out all the bank accounts and disappeared with the car the next day. So he left my mother with no job, no car, empty bank accounts, and four kids in Cheyenne, Wyoming. The last thing that we did as a family, it's funny, I'll never forget this, was the freedom train was coming through Cheyenne to celebrate the bicentennial. And that was kind of like the last thing we ever did was go and see the exhibits of our country. And then he was gone. And life was fucking hard and we had no clue how to do anything. And it was so bad. It was like, how can I be wishing for that fucker to be back here? Because that was better. So we went to the Catholic school which was in Cheyenne, a few blocks away from us. And they gave my mom a job as a secretary down there. And we got free lunch at the school. And we just, you know, tried to do the best we could. We got food stamps and you know, I became the man of the house. Like, I would go out and rake leaves and mow lawns and shovel snow. And we had these envelopes. I put my money in the house payment envelope first. That was the one we'd have to fill up. We'd sit at the kitchen table and mom was just, you know, wreck like. And I'm trying to be like, no, it's okay mom, I'll mow some more lawns or shovel some more snow. I would be an altar boy down at the church. And if you did funerals, the families of the deceased would tip you. So I would always try and volunteer for all the funeral gigs that I could get as an altar boy. Then we got this new bishop. It was a big deal because the old bishop had been like this 80 year old guy who never got out, never did anything, and just kind of like this old dusty dude that nobody really knew about. And this new bishop was like in his late 50s, kind of an energetic guy. And I met him during one of my altar boy gigs and he said, would you be able to come and rake leaves at the bishop's house for me? And I was, yeah, fine. So, I mean, the bishop's mansion, it was like, it had columns in front and it had a big wrought iron fence around it and shrubs and everything. So I started doing, you know, mow the lawn and rake the leaves and shovel the snow. Then at Thanksgiving time, couple priests pulled up from the church like the day before Thanksgiving and they get out and they have these cardboard boxes and we had brought food, cans of corn my mom had had given each one of us to bring to school for the

[Ed Gavigan]

poor people, the food drive that they

[Ed Gavigan (storytelling segment)]

have at the school. And so the priests pulled up and get out and they give us a turkey and these cans of food. And my mom said it was like it was because she worked at the church and these were things that they had left over and it made sense. So it was just like, okay. It wasn't like we were getting our cans of corn back, you know, and. And so we have a good Thanksgiving dinner and then I'm going to shovel snow at the Bishop's. And it was a Saturday, you know, it's Wyoming, so it fucking snowed every week. And I would be over there and I'd shovel the snow. And then this day, I mean, the Bishop's house was like incredible. He had this cooler in the garage that was just filled with every kind of soda you could imagine. He had root beer and country time lemonade and Shasta, every flavor. And BlackBerry soda if you wanted. And we didn't have any of that at our house, so. And he also did a lot of entertaining. So there was like honey roasted cashews and shit, like just boxes of it and pretzels and all this stuff. And he would say to me, after you're done, whatever the chore is, you know, let's go in the garage, we'll have a soda you can drink, have all you want, you know, and have all the snacks you want. Look, we got plenty, you know, and you're doing a good job, so don't worry about it. I'd be there and I'd be drinking these Sodas.

[Ed Gavigan]

I was just like, wow, this is

[Ed Gavigan (storytelling segment)]

treats I don't get. And so then this particular Saturday, you know, it was right after Thanksgiving and he says to me, you know, come up to my bedroom and I go up there and he's sitting on the bed, he's got like a half full rocks glass with, with whiskey in it and a cigarette. And he's like, I don't tell anybody I smoke, you know. You know, and he's like, he pulls me up next to him and he goes, now it's time for confession. Now I knew all about confession because I really didn't like to go, but it was something that you did in church, in the screen, in a booth, you know, you kind of knew which guy was in which booth so you could pick, you know, according to who was more lenient for whichever sin you were doing. But you know, you never actually had to see the guy face to face. And so he goes, now, you know, it's time for confession. And I was like, well, this doesn't seem like anything I've ever done before. So I kind of tried out my laundry list. You know, I was rude to my mother and punched my brother and, you know, didn't let my sister join in or you know, whatever my little shitty

[Ed Gavigan]

12 year old list of sins was.

[Ed Gavigan (storytelling segment)]

And then he's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, this isn't going to work if you don't like get to the real sins. And I was like, I don't know what you mean. And he goes, what about the impure thoughts? And I was like, impure thoughts? I'm drawing a blank here, dude. I was 12. Like for me, puberty was like five years away. Like I was a small, pale, hairless kid in the gym. Like everybody else was sprouting hair and muscles and deepening voices and getting taller. And I was just like this little dude, like scared of everything. I would never take a shower. And so I didn't have impure thoughts. I didn't know what masturbation was. I'd never seen pornography. It was just all still to be discovered. And I definitely didn't have any impure thoughts. That's very frustrating for him because he says, you're not going to get full confession if you don't confess all your sins. And I just kept drawing a blank. So he goes, listen, pull down your pants. You're going to have to show me what you do when you think about girls. And I was like. And I start to, I start to. I didn't cry But I got, like, kind of choked up, and I was like, this is so fucking weird, man. I don't know how to. What's the next thing I'm supposed to do because you're asking me about stuff I don't know about. So he pulls my pants down, and at this point, it's like this. We're having this, like, thing where we're sparring, kind of. And then he goes, you know what? The church has been really good to your family, and it would just be a shame if all of that came to an end because you cannot confess your sins. And I looked at him, and I'm like, well, I'm just trying to, you know, what is it that, you know, I should be saying or doing? And he's like, you know, the church needs you to confess. And I'm the bishop, and this is how. You just need to do what I'm asking you to do or you're not going to be able to be forgiven. And it would just be terrible for your sins to, like, make your family suffer. And at that moment, there was this kind of calculus that took place. I got to provide for my family. And there's a certain, like, you know, I'm just gonna. He's the boss.

[Ed Gavigan]

That's it.

[Ed Gavigan (storytelling segment)]

I guess I'm just gonna go along with this. And so then I did. A few weeks later, it's Christmas, and we're at the midnight mass, and I'm, you know, an altar boy there. There's incense. They're singing all these songs in Latin. It's kind of incomprehensible. Then he gets up and starts to talk. And I'm just thinking to myself, dads aren't supposed to leave. Maybe if I'd been a better kid, he wouldn't have left. And then I don't think that guy's supposed to be doing that to me. But, you know, he said that stuff about God sending his son. And I look up and there's a crucifix with some kind of malignant dead guy on it. And I'm just thinking, the fucking adults, man. I have no fucking clue. How the fuck does all of this shit make sense? Like, there's no rhyme or reason to how these people who are supposed to be in charge just doesn't make sense to me. And I'm listening to him talk, and I'm looking up at the crucifix. I'm looking out at the people. I'm smelling the incense and poinsettias everywhere. And I'm just like, all right, like, just try and do what they say and just get them off your back. Don't make any waves. So for the next year, I would try and, like, think to myself, you know, at the beginning, I would go over when it snowed and shovel the sidewalk. And then I wouldn't go. And he'd call and where's Ed? And my mom would be like, you gotta go. You know, it's the bishop calling. You have to go. It was just, like, hopeless. So it was just like, okay, I gotta. You know, I have to provide for my family. We can't take any more setbacks. And then the next year, I asked if I could not be an altar boy anymore and I could not go

[Ed Gavigan]

to the Catholic school.

[Ed Gavigan (storytelling segment)]

I wanted to go to the public school and just kind of quit going to church, you know, kind of made my way. And I didn't really have anything to do with him. I'm sure, you know, he found other outlets. You know, I had, like, kind of authority issues, had a lot of problems in terms of rebellion. But when I was a senior in high school, I really wanted to go to Notre Dam. And there was no fucking way on Earth. This, like, nobody kid, nobody in my family had ever been to college, was going to get to go to Notre Dame. So I sent a letter to the bishop, and so he wrote me a letter, and I got in and, you know, I had good sats and all

[Ed Gavigan]

that, but

[Ed Gavigan (storytelling segment)]

I'm sure it was a letter from the bishop of Wyoming that pushed the right buttons. And as I grew up and went to school and all that, I didn't

[Ed Gavigan]

really hate the guy.

[Ed Gavigan (storytelling segment)]

Like, at the end of the day, you're going to have pedophile clergy, you're going to have crooked cops, you're going to have bad doctors. It's people, right? People in the world, people in jobs. But it's the institution that should have done the right thing. And it turns out the reason we got this young bishop come to Wyoming was that he'd been transferred from Kansas City, where they had caught him, because one of the kids that he'd been molesting killed himself. And so then to cover it up, they sent him to the middle of nowhere to where I lived. Anyway. I got my education. I studied architecture and philosophy, got to go to school in Rome for a year. I learned to speak Italian. I learned a lot about the history of the Catholic Church. I learned a lot about Latin. Latin phrases are important in philosophy and architecture. And I guess the phrase that I feel like I learned very early on was quid pro quo.

[Ed Gavigan]

Thanks.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

Take a big sigh.

[Ed Gavigan]

Hard to hear. Yeah.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

Yeah, of course it's hard to hear. You're 10 years after hearing that. I gotta say, just you for the fourth time as a performer, getting on stage and telling that story. When listening to that, can you be back on that stage?

[Ed Gavigan]

I am, yeah. And I remember feeling lost, like, thinking to myself, I'm going to burst into tears. What am I going to tell right now that I can wrap my head around? That will kind of divert my emotion. And as I listen to it now, I can hear myself kind of trying to calibrate my storytelling to kind of tamp down the emotion, the emotions.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

Otherwise, you're just basically falling on stage.

[Ed Gavigan]

Otherwise you just go, I'm going to sit here and cry for a minute. And as you tell it, I think to do it successfully, you have to relive it.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

I know. This is one of the things I love and hate the most.

[Ed Gavigan]

Yeah.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

Honestly.

[Ed Gavigan]

Yeah. And so there were things, like, it was hard for me to hear even just right now, like the food drive, bringing the cans of corn to school for the poor people. And then on Thanksgiving, they pull up with the food for us. And my mom's like, oh, this was just extra stuff they had left over. And I believed it, you know, and now I look back on that and I'm just like, oh, man. You know, we were. We were getting our canned goods back, right? And it's hard to realize that. I mean, we were so poor, you know, in terms of the deprivation Olympics. You know, you talk to people these days, and they'll be like, man, we had no money growing up. And then they'll tell some story, and I'll be like, wait a second. You had two parents?

[Ophira Eisenberg]

Oh, I mean, like, listen, there's all kinds of stuff like that. I. You know, New York is an interesting place to live because there's so many rich people, and then there's people that, you know, have come from all kinds of backgrounds. But sometimes you talk to someone and they're like, we were so poor growing up. We had only two cars or whatever. And you're like, what are you talking about? Yeah. Very different worlds.

[Ed Gavigan]

Yeah.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

So I want to talk to you about this so much more, but let's just take a quick break for our listeners to digest and for us to digest. And then let's talk more about this incredible story.

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[Ed Gavigan]

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[Ophira Eisenberg]

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[Ed Gavigan]

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[Ophira Eisenberg]

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[Ed Gavigan]

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[Kevin Allison]

A superhero remake.

[Ed Gavigan]

Not exactly what we'd expect from an Oscar winning director. Action. Simon Williams auditioned for Wonder Man.

[Ed Gavigan (storytelling segment)]

I'm gonna need you to sign this. Assuming you don't have superpowers.

[Ed Gavigan]

I'll never work again. If anyone found out, my lips are sealed. Marvel Television's Wonder man, all eight episodes now streaming only on Disney. Another part that really struck me was the honey roasted cashews.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

So it's so funny you say that because I can't even attribute this to anything, but when you said honey roasted cashews, I. What a great description. You know, we talk about great descriptions in stories being almost like plot devices. And by just saying honey roasted cashews, you're actually moving the plot forward because that means to me. Decadence.

[Ed Gavigan]

Yeah. The height of luxury.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

The height of luxury. Not only cashews. The most expensive, right?

[Ed Gavigan]

I think the nuts.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

All the nuts. How do we both know that, by the way? They're out.

[Ed Gavigan]

Most expensive now it's the holidays. Honey roasted cashews. Like there's little dishes of them. And I look at them now and I can't even. I can't even. I can't. I can't have one. You know, I just look at it.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

Honey roasted cashews. Exactly.

[Ed Gavigan]

I wasn't gonna say that, but yeah. Thank you.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

You're welcome. Just talking about the story, you as a storyteller. And then we can. For one more seconds. And then I just wanna actually go into talking more about the story and the reality and the place in your life very early on in the story. You're talking about how your father, his occupation and why you were in Wyoming at all Was that he was guarding these nuclear missiles. And I don't think a lot of people think of Wyoming as that. As you mentioned, Yellowstone and wildlife and what have you. And then you. The marriage of your parents and that being detonated.

[Ed Gavigan]

Yeah. We had lived in Europe for four years before that, and so they couldn't split up while we were overseas. So things just simmered and simmered. And then as soon as we got back to Wyoming. The word detonated is really how it happened.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

Was your mother. Did she believe in God and Jesus?

[Ed Gavigan]

She did. She was raised Catholic. My parents were both born and raised in the Bronx to Irish Catholic. Yeah. You know, they went through the whole thing. They, in fact, enrolled us in the Catholic school when we got to Cheyenne. So that was a big part of.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

I mean, often the Catholic schools are the better schools, Right?

[Ed Gavigan]

Exactly. Yeah, it was, and it was small, but I remember one time there was a school picnic, and my dad was throwing a Frisbee or something, and he caught his hand on a barbed wire fence. Wherever the picnic was. We were in a field. You know, it's Wyoming.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

It's all deals and all barbs.

[Ed Gavigan]

But he got his hand snagged on this fence and was swearing. And I remember that was on the weekend. And then Monday morning in school, one of the nuns said to me, your father has a terrible temper. And I just looked at her and I said, oh, you think so? Like, you have no fucking idea. It's just always stuck with me that the nun thinking that she was revealing something. Right.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

To let you know of her observation, you're like, oh, yeah, you think I don't know this? The story starts, basically, you're 10 in there when you're talking about wrestling with your dad, which just breaks my heart. And being home from school. Did you feel like anyone was out there looking out for you? Was anyone inquiring?

[Ed Gavigan]

No, that was the worst thing. When I look back, I didn't quite understand it at the time. I felt it, but I didn't understand it was that all the adults in my life were fucking with me in a way of like, you know, you think your parents are supposed to take care of you. The bishop is supposed to be the shepherd of the flock. Like, my dad was gone, my mother was a wreck, and there was no adult that I could turn to. And that feeling of not only being alone, but also having to take care of things.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

Yeah.

[Ed Gavigan]

And then having this, you know, nowadays, pedophile is, in the vernacular of current events, and everyone is like, well, he's not technically A pedophile.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

Oh, my God. This drives me.

[Ed Gavigan (storytelling segment)]

You believe it.

[Ed Gavigan]

So the actual word is a pederast. Someone who is a pubescent abuser. So prepubescent is pedophile, and a pederast is the next from 1218.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

I'm so glad.

[Ed Gavigan]

Yeah, we need that distinction.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

Absolutely.

[Ed Gavigan]

But there was another line that I said in this story where I said he found other outlets after I decided I wanted to go to public school. And I cringed at that because I realized how much pain that simple phrase meant in the world, that there were other boys. And actually another boy killed himself. So he is literally responsible for the suicides of teen boys, more than one. And when that boy killed himself, the parents, you know, they caught him smoking pot or drinking or, you know, some early teen medicating. And the bishop took him on a camping trip, and shortly thereafter, he killed himself. And the bishop took me on those trips. And when the boy killed himself, everyone was trying to figure out why. And the bishop said, you know, well, it's terrible. I tried to help. And that's one of the things that made me come forward, was that I said, no, no, I can tell you why that boy killed himself. And here's what happened. And we ended up being contacted by lawyers from Kansas City and a filmmaker who wanted to make a documentary about the abusive priests, because there was a whole network of abusive priests in Kansas City. And then in the 70s, they were broken up and sent around. And so this idea that, as I tried to say in the story, I definitely hated him. But as I matured and I understood, it was like he was sent to do that to us by the church. It wasn't an accident that he was in Cheyenne.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

Right.

[Ed Gavigan]

You know, that was a purposeful shunting of him away from a population center to some backwater. But it was a backwater filled with vulnerable kids. And so we ended up making this documentary. And I went to the FBI in both Wyoming and Kansas City because he took me across state lines in the commission of a felony. So that brings it into the jurisdiction of the FBI. And what they said was, well, it's 45 years ago, and there are no other witnesses. And I said, yeah, I understand that. And I understand the presumption of innocence and the burden of proof and all of that. And if I were the only person saying this, I would understand why you wouldn't pursue it.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

Yeah.

[Ed Gavigan]

But I can give you the names of 30 other young people who were young men. Now, they're either alcoholics, drug addicts, living in their Parents, basement. And those people can all tell you exactly the same story. And I didn't know them. I didn't know them until they came forward. And we all have the same story. So at what point does that trigger a broader investigation? And you realize when you have a mayor, when you have a governor, all these people are elected and they're in office for a certain number of years, but a bishop is appointed for decades. So this is a guy who the Catholic mayor and the Catholic chief of police and the Catholic governor tell their sins to. And who married the woman who was the prosecutor in Cheyenne, Wyoming. He performed her marriage. He buried her mother and father. Father. He baptized her kid. And so then I go to the prosecutor and I say, well, what can we do? And she says, well, I have to recuse myself and I have to find somebody who's not a Catholic who can pursue this. And in the news today, it's very triggering to see these powerful old white guys getting away with this horrific abuse. I mean, abuse to the point that people kill themselves.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

And they're still like, oh, we tried. And the documentary is called Procession. It was you and other five of us.

[Ed Gavigan]

Five of you, four from Kansas City and me from Cheyenne.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

What was it like to meet all those other people?

[Ed Gavigan]

We became really dear friends. And we all still text each other every week to this day. Every week we check in. Yeah, it's really been something. And we are very different, very different. And yet we have that in common. And some of us have had kids, you know, and I was making that documentary when my daughter was the age that I was when I was being abused. And so when I think back at, you know, the shame that I had, why didn't I stick up for myself? Why did it take me so long to put an end to it? And I look at my daughter at that age and I just think she is not responsible. The shame needs to go where it belongs. And I felt like this daughter documentary did that. Although no consequences ever came to those men in their lives from the church or from law enforcement, they were not taken out of the priesthood. They were not excommunicated. I mean, it was just mind boggling to watch the process fail to achieve anything. And it's, you know, the president and Epstein and all of that, it's like, it just rings so, so many bells for me where you just go, oh, this is. The documentary was really the only consequence in his life that we did.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

Did you know, he was aware of it.

[Ed Gavigan]

He was. And I had a friend of mine from high School call me, got in touch through Facebook. And he's like, eddie, I had no idea. I'm so sorry. He was an altar boy with me, but he had a dad and he had a mom and he had a big brother, and he never had any indication. And so there was this bishop doing all these good works, right? Providing for people, going through the community, doing charity and all that. And so his charitable good works were a shield. They weren't coming out of goodness. They were coming out of. I am going to need people to back me up if this shit ever hits the fan. And so my friend's mother said to him, it's just such a shame what they're doing to that good man. You know, these kids, everyone who's coming forward just wants a check no from the church.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

That's the response.

[Ed Gavigan]

And he says, I could call my mom and tell her. And then his mom died before I could call. And he just said to his mom, like, no, I'm telling you, this is true. And she could not wrap her head around it.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

What did your mom think?

[Ed Gavigan]

My mom. It kind of broke my mom in ways that it's still hard. Like when she hears anything on the news about pedophiles, she will call and I have voicemails that I've saved from her where she'll start to say, I saw on the news. And then she'll just break down in tears and can't finish and just cries for a minute and then hangs up. And I just. I have said to her, you trusted and you needed to trust in those days. And there was not a culture that believed this was even a thing. So my mom was operating from no knowledge. And so again, the shame does not go on my mother. It doesn't go on me. The shame goes on that guy, right? And any attempt or any effort to divert it and say, well, your mom should have. No, no, no, no. Bishop and the church, now they have a word for it, it's called grooming, you know, and he took me to see a James Bond film, and he took me to see Logan's Run. I don't know if you remember that film where all the women are in these basically 90s sheer lingerie and they're prancing around in this futuristic. And the bishop said, we're gonna go see this movie, but we aren't gonna tell your mom because it's R rated, but you're going with the bishop, so it's okay.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

Oh, my God.

[Ed Gavigan]

And it was the beginning of we're gonna have have secrets you and I and then have all the honey roasted cashews. We won't tell your mom that, you know, you're having all these snacks and all this candy and in the moment, as a young adolescent, you're thinking, okay. And he hadn't done anything at this point. Just having a secret about the movie and we're having a secret about the candy. And so then there's this like, we're going to have these things that nobody else knows about. And you're getting primed for that. And it's horrific because it's like there's a playbook. And he's.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

And he knew it.

[Ed Gavigan]

Yeah.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

And he knew it. And do you think anyone else in the church in Cheyenne knew it?

[Ed Gavigan]

I think the other priests had an inkling. They did because it was weird. You don't take a 14 year old boy on a camping trip. And I begged my mom not to go. And she would say, it's the bishop and he really wants you to go, so you have to do it. And I just, you know, now I. Look, if my daughter begged me not to do something, whatever it was, she wouldn't have to do it. Yeah. I'd be like, fine. And with that, the idea that he would, you know, we'd stay in a roadside motel, you know, it was just. You look back and it's like, well, that was the seventies, you know. Yeah.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

No question.

[Ed Gavigan]

There weren't even kids on milk cartons in those days. That's how off the radar all of this was. When I start being withdrawn in school and I can look, I have my report cards from Catholic school in those days, all the way up until that year, all A's, everything, great grades, even when my dad was gone. But then when that happened the year after Eddie's disruptive. Eddie's behavior in class, and it was downhill. And then I just had for the next 25 years problems with authority.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

How could you not have problems with authority?

[Ed Gavigan]

Tell me what to do. My dad was a cop. There could be no worse example than him in terms of protecting the innocent. And the same with the bishop. And so my life in relation to law enforcement has been no fun until I had to settle down in my late, late 30s.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

Dude, the fact that you even had a turning point I find extraordinary. I mean, the story also brings up a lot of ideas that a lot of stories have. Just yours is very clear about people looking for father figures that are absent from their life for one reason or another. And then you find potentially a new father figure and that person Also completely crumbles the idea. Did you ever, at that point in your life, were you. Like, you wouldn't have internalized this, but did you stop looking for father figures, or do you think you found one in your life?

[Ed Gavigan (storytelling segment)]

No, I never did.

[Ed Gavigan]

And I've realized that my employment history. I've never had a mentor.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

I've never had a mentor.

[Ed Gavigan]

Yeah.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

I've never had a mentor.

[Ed Gavigan]

You try and you look back and

[Ophira Eisenberg]

you think, I want one so badly.

[Ed Gavigan]

That guy kind of tried to be a mentor, and he wasn't. There was no sexual overtone, nothing. It was just that this person is in a position of power or authority over my career and my position, and I'm not going to bond with them and I'm not going to be vulnerable.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

That's, I think, what it is.

[Ed Gavigan]

Count on them for help, right? Yeah.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

Do you remember people talking to you after this particular performance? Or maybe you could have just run out, I don't know, at this live

[Ed Gavigan]

performance, people that had, you know, abuse. Not necessarily from clergy, you know, from a choir master or a piano teacher. And there's a certain age, I think my age, and maybe within 10 or 15 years of me, because I think now the culture has evolved to the point that it's much, much harder to be a creepy piano teacher. People are sensitive to the signs. You're still going to have a kid without a dad and a mom is harried and frantic.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

Or broken.

[Ed Gavigan]

Or broken. And so the victims are still prime. But I think it's much harder for the people in those positions to get away with it.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

So you find like, you're talking to a very specific demographic.

[Ed Gavigan]

Yeah. And they come up to me and they're like, you know, it was great to hear, and I'm so glad you're okay.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

Now, what's your response to that?

[Ed Gavigan]

You should see the view from in here. But, you know, oh, my God, why

[Ophira Eisenberg]

does that make me laugh so much? Because people say it to me. Well, that's why I always have a problem when someone, instead of saying, how are you? Goes, you good? I'm just like, no, you.

[Ed Gavigan (storytelling segment)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

But, yeah, okay.

[Ed Gavigan]

It reminds me of a friend of. I think we both have a friend who uses crutches to get around from a condition that he's had his whole adult life. And he was getting into a cab on the Upper east side, and some woman was watching him, and she called out, she goes, you're such an inspiration. And he just turned and looked at her. He said, fuck off.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

Yeah, that is exactly what it deserves.

[Ed Gavigan]

Yeah.

[Ed Gavigan (storytelling segment)]

Yeah.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

Okay. So. Yeah. So people come up to you and they're like, I'm glad you're fine now. And you have to take that in however you do.

[Ed Gavigan (storytelling segment)]

Yeah.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

What made you decide? You know, you tell the story. That was your fourth time on stage. I can imagine, just from knowing you, some of the stuff you talked about in earlier stories, what from this performance, doing something so high stakes, vulnerable, intense, made you think, I'm gonna keep doing this?

[Ed Gavigan]

Well, part of it was that what I found out from doing the documentary was lifting shame. And so this was the first time I had ever told people I didn't know the story. I hadn't told girlfriends in most of my life. But at this point, I was married and my wife knew and, you know, but I was ashamed to tell girlfriends that I had been, you know, that I had had this happen as a child. And also, you know, Kevin, Allison gives a really safe space. Like, the people who come, they know

[Ophira Eisenberg]

what they're there for.

[Ed Gavigan]

Yeah. They know their Pandora's box is gonna be open tonight on the stage. So that's super helpful. And then that idea that I'm going to tell this because I'm not ashamed. I am a victim. And I am also. I'm where I am in my life, which is that I can get up on stage and talk about this. And then when the documentary came out and it got a phenomenal reception, it

[Ophira Eisenberg]

was a Oscar nominated, was on the

[Ed Gavigan]

short list for Oscar, but like Rolling Stone, New Yorker, a lot of really good film critics just spoke about the power of it, and it was super helpful. And all of us, it just gave us a confidence in our life in a way it's hard to even describe, but just that it removed this burden, a burden of shame, and then put the burden where it belonged to, both on the church and on the individuals. I actually wrote a letter to the pope. Pope Francis. Yeah. And I had someone who could get it to him on his desk, really. And he wrote back to me. You know those people. Yeah, he wrote back to me, a personal letter, and he said, I am going to do what I can to make sure this is resolved. And then he put it in the hands of the Council of American Bishops. And the guy from the Council of American Bishops who reached out to me was a canonical lawyer, not someone with any experience in criminal prosecution. Not someone who knew how to, you know, forensic investigation of child abuse. They didn't. You would think they would have a panel of people that would talk to

[Ophira Eisenberg]

me, especially at this point in History.

[Ed Gavigan]

Yeah. And then one of the first questions this guy asked me is, so, are you preparing a lawsuit?

[Ophira Eisenberg]

And I just.

[Ed Gavigan]

I was like, no, I'm not. But that's not what this is about. What this is about is what that man did to me and what you're going to do about it.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

Protection. He was just. Protection.

[Ed Gavigan]

He was like, if we admit that what this guy did happened, there's going to be slam dunk lawsuits against us from dozens and dozens of boys. And, you know, they bankrupted diocese, I think in Minnesota maybe, or Wisconsin and California.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

New York right now has a case.

[Ed Gavigan]

Yeah. And so it was like, oh, this is really. This is so gross. I can't even. I can't believe it's just how it happened. Money, billions, you know, it would be. Yeah. So.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

So what was your response to that?

[Ed Gavigan]

My response was, here's what you need to think about. Yeah, there's dozens of boys that this one guy, and then he's affiliated with four other priests in Kansas City. And you need to. And some of them are dead, but you need to go into all of this. And at the end of the day, they came back and said, we cannot with moral certainty say that what you're accusing him of actually happened, but we're going to restrict his access to youth. So then you go, okay, what. So what you have is a retired bishop who can't teach Sunday school, and that's okay with you? If you don't believe me, then I have lied. And this man is an innocent man and he should be free to go about his life with no restrictions whatsoever because I'm a liar and you don't believe me, and so he should have no consequences from this. But if you do believe me, then you need to follow where that goes, and this man should not remain a priest. And so what you've done is said we're going to not let him be associated with kids anymore so we're not at risk of a lawsuit.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

That's it.

[Ed Gavigan]

You know, he died with those restrictions on him, but he was not removed from the priesthood. There's a huge contingent of people who did not believe that we were telling the truth. And he died in that state.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

Well, what can I say? I mean, God is dead. That's what I have to say to that.

[Ed Gavigan]

Or as Nietzsche said, God's only excuse is that he doesn't exist.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

Is there anything else you want to chat about?

[Ed Gavigan]

I'm so grateful to Kevin for bringing us together to do this, and I hope listening to this is, if not amusing, for everyone helpful on some level.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

Well, steep and entertaining.

[Ed Gavigan]

Yeah, yeah. But thank you for coming out.

[Ophira Eisenberg]

Well, you know, you are one of my favorite people on the planet and I really appreciate it. So thank you, Ed.

[Ed Gavigan]

Okay, thanks for going through it with me again.

[Kevin Allison]

And that is that again. I am so honored that Edge shared his story with us in the first place in 2015, and that Ed and Ofira brought so much honesty and thoughtfulness to this conversation. I have to say that when Risk first started in 2009, even though I was raised very, very, very Catholic, I still didn't grasp what an epidemic child sexual abuse was in the church and throughout society. It's still staggering to me how much of this crime is out there and the best way to have an understanding of the problem is to hear the personal experiences of the people who lived through it. So I'm thankful we can be a part of helping people share about experiences like Ed did. So you can find [e-mail] and look for Ophira on Instagram Ferae. Remember that we simply cannot continue producing such meaningful programming without the financial support of our listeners. If I can just be completely and totally frank with you, it's really exhausting. It's really psychologically difficult dealing with the anxiety that we on the RISC staff have to deal with every week. If our staff meetings could be more about ideas of what new things we could be bringing to you and less about oh my God, is this the end? How can we possibly cut our pay even more and continue making this job? The anxiety over how do we keep this going is really, really something. If just 10% of the folks who listen to Risk somewhat regularly pitched in to support us over at Patreon, all of that would just evaporate overnight. You can get an ad free feed of the podcast. You can get hundreds over 300 now. Bonus stories. There's storytelling lessons on video, there's the check ins with me. I'm about to do the all another one and most importantly the knowledge that you're a part of this community. You're helping keeping it going. So join at patreon.com risk or up your donation if you can if you're already there. Or you can make a one time donation at PayPal me riskshow. Another way you can support is by giving us a five star rating and a nice review over at Apple Podcast, Spotify or podchaser. Those also help more than you might know. So thank you so much everyone and today's the day. Take a Risk.

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