The Riverside, Revisited

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: RISK! – “The Riverside, Revisited”

Host: Kevin Allison
Date: January 30, 2026

---

Episode Overview

This special episode of RISK! honors the memory of storyteller, animator, and trans pioneer Jan Scott Fraser, who was beloved within the RISK! community and recently passed away. To commemorate Jan, the episode revisits her powerful 2011 story “The Riverside,” followed by a previously unreleased, intimate conversation from 2021 between Jan and narrative therapist David Newman. The episode explores themes of grief, compassion, memory, connection, and the enduring significance of being witnessed and remembered.

---

Main Story: “The Riverside” by Jan Scott Fraser

Story begins – [04:11]

Summary of Jan’s Story (04:11–18:26)

• 1988: Alone in Japan

  • At 22, Jan moves to Japan to pursue animation, struggling through animation school and working in a restaurant with limited Japanese. Overwhelmed by stress and loneliness, she finds solace in nightly walks along the Tama River on the outskirts of Tokyo.

• Discovery of the Weeping Woman

  • Jan establishes a ritual visiting a serene riverside spot, experiencing relief from her tension. Mid-week, she finds her spot occupied by a young woman, crying alone at midnight. This repeats over several weeks; Jan observes the woman from a distance, empathetically wondering about her pain.

• Evolving Compassion

  • Jan’s reaction evolves from feeling territorial to developing deep compassion, describing a strong, unfamiliar non-romantic love. She wants to reach out, but is held back by language, size, and cultural differences. “If I did, here comes this giant tall white person... I would have probably said something like, ‘Hello, I come to destroy you,’ or something.” [12:07]

• Desire for Connection

  • Jan plots gentle ways to connect—drafting letters in Japanese, even buying a stuffed dog as a silent token of care. Yet the opportunity never arises; when she finally brings the gift on a rainy night, the woman does not appear.

• The Shocking Aftermath

  • Days later, at work, Jan recognizes the woman in a newspaper photo. With help, she learns the woman's name, Asuna Tsurukawa, and her tragic story: alone in Tokyo, alienated, friendless, she died by suicide on the very night Jan waited—coinciding with Jan's deepest desire to reach out.

• Haunting Legacy

  • Jan reflects on how no one but her seemed to remember or mourn Asuna. “In all that time, I don’t think I met one other person on the planet who really cared that Asuna had lived or died—and that nobody would remember her except me. And I do. And now maybe you will.” [18:23]

---

Memorable Quotes from the Story

• Jan on being an outsider:
  “I moved there because I was really intent on doing it... but you know what, you got to make the rent.” [04:24]

• On compassion:
  “It wasn’t like a romantic, ‘I want to make out with you’ kind of love. It was something else. It was compassion. This deep compassion.” [11:52]

• On witnessing Asuna’s pain:
  “I just felt worse and worse and I’m getting this stronger feeling. I just wanted to run up and hold her to say, you know, there is somebody else out here, there is somebody who cares.” [12:54]

• On the tragedy:
  “Her lifeblood was washing out into the tub... We went to sleep around the same time. Me, troubled, unhappy. Her, forever.” [17:10]

• On memory:
  “In all that time, I don’t think I met one other person on the planet who really cared that Asuna had lived or died—and that nobody would remember her except me. And I do. And now maybe you will.” [18:23]

---

Conversation: Jan Scott Fraser & David Newman

Conversation begins – [20:25]

Key Discussion Points and Insights

• Narrative Therapy & Continuing Bonds ([21:41–23:22])

  • David highlights how narrative therapy honors continuing relationships with the dead—“we don’t have to say goodbye… relationships can continue in our imaginations.” He finds Jan's plea for Asuna’s care and remembrance deeply moving.

• Outsiders and Shared Alienation ([23:48–24:40])

  • Jan acknowledges their mutual outsider status and resonates with the idea of “anomie,” longing to be "alone together" with Asuna.

• Compassion and Witnessing ([25:23–28:17])

  • David reflects on Jan’s instinct to share, not protect, her solace spot, and how Jan became a silent witness to Asuna’s sorrow—amplifying both their stories through caring observation.

• Non-Traditional Connections ([30:04–31:37])

  • Both discuss how their connection defies typical labels (not romance, not friendship), underscoring the human need for recognizing varied relationships.

• Remembering the Whole Life, Not Just the Ending ([33:01–36:43])

  • David and Jan discuss resisting the reduction of a person to the manner of their death, especially suicide. Jan emphasizes: “As long as people tell stories about me, as long as people remember me, I’m still alive.” [33:01]
  • David lauds Jan’s inversion: not “what might she have missed,” but “what did she have?”—recognizing a person’s actual lived joys and sorrows.

• Walking and Processing Grief ([39:10–41:02])

  • Jan describes how walking—especially alone, with music—remains a key coping tool, both for stress and reflection.

• The River as Change ([42:29–43:07])

  • The river becomes a symbol of life’s continual change (“You can’t step into the same river twice” – Heraclitus). The hosts and guests feel a global kinship through shared landscapes and forms of solace.

---

Notable Quotes – Conversation

• David on remembering:
  “When people’s stories are witnessed, those stories become larger. In the witnessing and retelling… they become amplified.” [26:10]

• Jan on a new kind of connection:
  “I don’t have a word for this kind of feeling or love or relationship… this is not really even a friendship.” [31:37]

• Jan on memorialization:
  “She’s part of the story of my life. So when I tell the stories of my life, she’s one of those stories, you know?” [33:12]

• Jan on shared compassion:
  “There’s more to everyone than we think… we honk at that guy on the road… but he’s more than just a pair of hands on a steering wheel.” [38:23]

---

Host Reflections & Personal Tribute

[Kevin Allison, 44:37–end]

• On Jan’s Legacy

  • Kevin shares Jan’s trailblazing career in anime/manga and her work as an activist and therapist, especially for marginalized communities.
  • Jan was the first trans storyteller on RISK!, though that part of her identity isn’t explicit in “The Riverside.”

• On Storytelling as Remembrance

  • Kevin connects the episode’s themes to the wider human need for sharing stories, especially in the wake of tragedy.

  • “Jan’s storytelling and David’s therapeutic work… is all a reminder that we keep us safe and we build new possibilities when we keep showing up for this kind of connection in listening and sharing.”

  • The episode closes with an invitation to listeners to revisit old stories and continue to remember those who have passed by sharing their stories.

---

Timestamps for Major Segments

• [02:43] – Kevin introduces Jan Scott Fraser and the special episode context
• [04:11] – “The Riverside” by Jan Scott Fraser
• [18:26] – End of story; brief pause
• [20:25] – Kevin introduces Jan and David’s conversation
• [21:41] – Narrative therapy and grief
• [23:48] – Shared outsider perspective
• [25:23] – On compassion and sharing space
• [26:10] – The importance of being witnessed
• [30:04] – Language and connection
• [33:01] – Memory, story, and the significance of a life
• [39:10] – Walking as therapy
• [42:29] – Rivers and change
• [44:37] – Kevin’s personal tribute and reflections

---

Episode Takeaways

• The Power of Bearing Witness: To witness another’s pain is a profound act of connection, even if unexpressed.
• Remembering the Whole Person: A life isn’t defined by its ending; stories ensure continued legacy.
• Compassion Beyond Words: Acts of witnessing and small gestures can bridge seemingly insurmountable divides.
• The Value of Unexpected Connections: Human bonds can form in spaces that defy simple definition.
• Storytelling as Resistance and Remembrance: Sharing and retelling stories is a way to resist erasure and build empathy.

---

Listener Invitation

Share your favorite RISK! stories, and remember to “take a risk”—by connecting, listening, and sharing, just as Jan did.

---

Transcript

[A]

The holidays are behind us and school routines are back. Now is the time to help your kids start the new semester strong. IXL helps students refresh what they learned in the fall so they head into the new year feeling confident and prepared with new units and new goals. IXL is the simplest way to build better habits and stay on top of lessons without the stress. As teachers dive into new material, kids can practice those exact same skills at home to make sure the lessons really stick. IXL is an award winning platform covering math, language arts, science and social studies for Pre K through 12th grade. It's personalized, interactive and actually fun. Keep your kids motivated for the second half of the year at ixl.com don't miss out. One in four students in the US are learning with IXL. IXL is used in 96 of the top 100 school districts in the US make an impact on your child's learning. Get IXL now and listeners can get an exclusive 20% off IXL membership when they sign up today at ixlearning.com audio visit ixllearning.com audio to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price.

[B]

Well, the holidays have come and gone.

[C]

Once again, but if you've forgotten to get that special someone in your life a gift, well, Mint Mobile is extending.

[B]

Their holiday offer of half off unlimited wireless.

[A]

So here's the idea. You get it now, you call it.

[B]

An early present for next year. What do you have to lose?

[D]

Give it a [e-mail] Switch limited time.

[A]

50% off regular price for new customers. Upfront payment required $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 for 12 month plan taxes and fees. Extra speeds may slow after 50 gigabytes per month when network is busy. See Terms a year from today. What would your dream private practice look like? Would you spend less time chasing claims or only working with clients who value your skill set? What if you had more time for yourself? ALMA empowers you to confidently accept insurance backed by an all in one EHR that simplifies scheduling, documentation and day to day practice operations. Your dream practice is closer than you think. Learn more about [e-mail] get started.

[B]

This.

[A]

Episode is brought to you by Peloton. Break through the busiest time of year with the brand new Peloton Cross Training Tread plus powered by Peloton iq. With real time guidance and endless ways to move, you can personalize your workouts and train with confidence, helping you reach your goals in less time. Let yourself Run, lift, sculpt, push and go. Explore the new peloton cross training Tread [e-mail]. Risk.

[E]

Hello folks, this is Risk, the show where people tell true stories they never thought they'd dare to share. I'm Kevin Allison and recently we received the very sad news that someone who was so dear to the Risk community passed away. Jan Scott Fraser was an extraordinary person in so many ways and I'll talk more about Jan at the end of the episode. In honor of Jan's memory, we thought we would revisit one of the all time classic Risk stories that she told on the podcast back in 2011. There's also a personal essay version of it in the Risk and I can assure you, even if you've heard the story before, it is so worth hearing again. But we also have a special treat for you after the story, something you surely have not heard before. In 2021, we recorded a conversation between Jan and a narrative therapist named David Newman. David works at Sydney Narrative Therapy in Sydney, Australia. And it's just so lovely to hear these two wonderful people discussing this beautiful story. So without further ado, here is the Riverside by Jan Scott Fraser and a conversation about it with David Newman.

[C]

In 1988 I was all of 22 years old. I had moved to Japan the year before because I wanted to be in animation. Talk about love. That is entire different show as well. I moved there because I was really intent on doing it and I lived in this little apartment on the Tama river that was right at the very edge of Tokyo and I went to animation school and I worked at a restaurant washing dishes and doing kitchen prep. Not exactly what I thought that I would be doing when I moved there, but you know what, you got to make the rant. So the pressure of both animation school and work, which is in Japanese and working in the restaurant, which was all in Japanese and my fledgling 7 month old Japanese didn't work very well. So I was very, very, very stressed all the time. And one night I just decided, I got home and I used to love to walk. So I decided I'm going to take a walk along this river. I had always walked south, but I had never walked upriver. I walked along the river, the river was very wide and as I said, it was on the very edge of Tokyo, so there weren't very many people who lived there. So it was about midnight and I wandered up this path and the path kind of drifted away from the city so it got quieter and quieter until all I heard was the Cool breeze and the frogs and sometimes ducks. And it was very serene. So I kept walking up the river until I finally came to a place where the river was widened and there was a waterfall of sorts. Is about a 3 meter sloping drop. And there was this on the side of the river I was on, which is the north side, there was a big concrete platform, if you will. And at the edge of the platform where it met the river was a waist high railing. So you could stand there and look at the river. And it was very beautiful because the moonlight was coming down. I could see it on where the waterfall came over. And the city across the way, Noborito, I could see its light on there was very pretty, pretty, very calming. And as I just stood there, I felt that tension and stress flowing out of me. So I waited there for about an hour and then I walked home. And then that night I slept so well. So for the next few nights I walked up there as well. I would get off work at 10:30 or 11 and I would take the train home. That was stressful in itself. So I walked up there every night. Started on Sunday night. Monday night, Tuesday night I went up there. Wednesday night I went up there and there was somebody there. I could see this woman standing there. And I felt invaded. I felt like my personal private, cool place where I was there in the middle of the night to relax, had been invaded by somebody. On the other side of the platform were cattails and bulrushes. And on one side were these huge. They look like huge concrete jacks. That's the only way to describe them. They were used to keep the area from eroding. I walked down into those jacks where she couldn't see me. And I sat there for a while waiting for her to leave. But she wouldn't leave. I thought, I wonder what she's doing. So I kind of crawled surreptitiously over these jacks until I could see her. And she was standing against this railing crying. And every so often the wind would blow the right way and I could hear her sobbing. And I thought, wow, how very sad. So after about half an hour she finished her cry and she walked upriver. I thought, wow, that's how very depressing. And I realized that I was doing pretty much the same thing, that I wasn't crying, but I was coming up here to kind of be alone and let my mind run. So I spent my half hour up there and then I went home. And then the next few days I got really busy. So I went back on the Monday, and then on a Tuesday. And then on the Wednesday, there she was again, standing at the railing, crying. So I got back down into the jacks, and this time I crawled a little closer. I know most people would call this stalking, but, you know, I thought it was just interest. So I got closer until I could kind of see her better again. The moon was on the way down now, so it was a little bit harder. And she was just. She was a young woman, maybe in her very early 20s. And she was just, you know, sobbing, sobbing. And so she finished her crying and she left. And again, when I was standing there, I was looking at the river. I was listening to the frogs and the ducks. But I kept thinking about her. I kept thinking, how very sad. Does she have no friends? Does she have nobody who cares about her? Why does she come here alone? I know I come here alone. I'm a foreigner who's been living here for a year. I don't speak Japanese. I have no friends. Her, not a foreigner. Probably been living there for a little bit more than a year. I don't know about friends. So I did my thing and I went back. And that week I couldn't stop thinking about her. And I started to feel. I didn't really know. I had never felt this before. This kind of strong, very warm feeling towards her. It wasn't like a romantic kind of, I want to make out with you kind of love. It was something else. It was compassion. This deep compassion. So again, next Wednesday, there she was again. And I did the same thing. I sat in the jacks and I waited for her to leave. But this time, I had this strong drive to get up and say something. But the thing is, keep in mind that I'm about 6 foot 1, she's about 5 3. So even if I did, here comes this giant, tall, white person and my Japanese, I would have been so nervous that I would have probably said something like, hello, I come to destroy you, or something. You know, I might as well go like a monster, you know, go to get the whole Godzilla thing going. But that's not what I wanted, obviously. So I watched her again, and she left. And so the same thing. And so that next week, I decided that I'm going to say something. I'm going to do something. I don't know what I'm going to say, but hopefully not. I'm going to destroy you. So I had actually written out some things, maybe just to say, I wish I could help you. Are you hurting? That kind of thing. So I went there and she was. I got delayed and she was just leaving, so I followed her again. There's that stalking thing. It's not stalking. This is interest and compassion. Really it is. And so I followed her up the river and I had never been beyond this point, so I was keeping a good distance because of course my white skin shines like a searchlight. So I kind of followed her up into the. Right by the train line, the KO line where she went. And I followed her and followed her and then she disappeared in this big group of apartments. And I didn't really want to wander around looking like in windows or something. That's where you cross the line into stalker, you know. The next week I might again. I'm just. Every week when I, when I see her go, I just felt worse and worse and I'm getting this stronger feeling. I just wanted to run up and hold her to say, you know, there is somebody else out here, there is somebody who cares. And I started to feel this love for this really strong love. It was not friendship, it wasn't romantic love. It was something I had never experienced before. And I could not get her out of my mind. So the next week I said, okay, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to like, not really lay a trap, but lay a trap. And so I saw her and I walked past, up the river a ways and. Because before there was an area that was wide and there were these concrete cylinders that you could sit on. So I said, what I'm going to do is I'm going to sit on these concrete cylinders and just kind of hang out like at one o' clock in the morning, like, yeah, I'm just reading a book here where there's nobody else except you and me. And I'm tall and scary and foreign. And so I sat there and luckily there was this big fat white cat that was chasing bugs. So I got a weed and I was playing with a cat. And so I'm like, come on, hurry up, come by, hurry up. I can't play with this cat forever. So finally she comes and I see her and I'm just acting like, oh, this is my cat that I play with at one o' clock in the morning every night. And so I'm playing with the cat and she walks up and I see her and I turn and I want to say something, but when I looked at her, I couldn't because she had the saddest expression I had ever seen on her face. I'm sure her eyes were red from the crying. But it was one o' clock in the morning and couldn't see. But she was about. Like I said, she has about five, three maybe long black hair just past the middle of her waist and very kind of pretty. And I thought. And she went by. And I wasn't going to follow her because that's even worse, you know, you gotta set the trap and use the trap. That was past the trap time. So the next week I said, okay, here's my plan. I'm gonna do something. It just burned in my mind. I felt so bad I would cry myself at night thinking about her, thinking about how there was no. Of course I had made all this stuff up in my mind. You know, I was in animation school. I was making stories. So nobody loved her. She was the saddest person in the world. All this horrible stuff had happened to. She didn't have anyone to talk to. Maybe she would even talk to a foreigner who couldn't really speak Japanese. Maybe you could have coffee and just talk. I was going to the animation school classroom and I walked by this toy store and there was this cute little white dog, stuffed dog in the window. And I thought, hmm, maybe I'll get that dog. And I don't want to walk up and go, hey, dog. You know, that would be a little on the weird side. So maybe I could leave it there with a card that says for you. I wouldn't want to write for you, crying girl. That would be a little too. She'd never come back, right? So I was trying to figure out what to write. And if it was in English, I would have been fine, but not so much in Japanese. And so I bought the dog and I was. I waited and waited. And next Wednesday it was raining and I took this dog and I wrapped this pretty red bow around the dog's neck. I'm like, okay, I'm going to give the. I don't know, maybe I'll just set it there or something. And so I said, that's what I'll do. I'll set it there. But it's raining. So I was going to put a piece of plastic over it. Now, that probably wouldn't mean. She walked over. There's a stuffed dog under a piece of plastic, the end of the river. I don't know, you know. So I got there before she would. I figured that if she had spent an hour there, which was kind of unlikely, so I got there early. I left work early so I could do this. I put the dog there and then I went to the Jacks. Because I knew she wouldn't go on that side. And I sat there in the rain and it rained and I got colder and colder and colder. And she never came. And the first thought in my mind is, how dare you? I bought this dog. I've been waiting a month and a half to say something to you. And I finally get up, gets to do this, and now you don't come.

[B]

Geez.

[C]

But the second thought I had is maybe she no longer has anything to cry about. Maybe something wonderful has happened in her life and she doesn't need to come and cry at the waterfall. I thought, how wonderful that is. Maybe. Maybe that's it. And so I was trying to convince myself that that's what it's about. But somehow I didn't really think that was the case. So I got the dog. And now I'm wet. The dog's wet. I walked home and I went to sleep. Very, very troubled sleep that night. Again, that was on Wednesday and on Sunday at the restaurant where I worked. We had a dumbwaiter. We had a two level restaurant and we had this dumbwaiter that would go between the floors. And it was wood, so I constantly had to put newspaper in it to keep it from rotting so we could clean it easier. So I put it in there. And as I was putting it in there, I saw a picture in the newspaper that looked exactly like her. I mean, dead on. Now, of course, I had memorized her face despite it being in the moonlight. I had seen her from various angles and such. And I thought, that's gotta be her. And I spent the next two hours looking at it thinking, that's her. That's got to be her. And I tried to read the article, but again, it was in a Japanese newspaper. My 7 month old Japanese did not really do very well, especially with the written. So I had to get help. I had a couple friends help me. And the deal was her name was Asuna Tsurukawa. Asuna is her name. And she had a difficult life right after high school. Her father didn't say what happened to her mother, but her father kicked her out of the house and said, go fend for yourself. I'm assuming he was an alcoholic or something, because that's pretty rare that that kind of stuff happens. So she moved to Tokyo, the big city, to try to figure stuff out. She wanted to go to school, but didn't get that to work out. Couldn't come with the money, so she took a job in a bakery. But she was very alienated from everyone. Else who worked there. It's not that she didn't get along with them. It's just that she didn't have a lot in common with anybody. She didn't really feel like she could have a conversation with people. She didn't have any friends. That night when I was sitting out there, she really wanted somebody to talk to. But everyone's like, oh, there's that alien girl. We're going to go out and drink. We're busy tonight. So they kind of blew her off, and so she went home and decided to take a bath in a nice warm bath. When I was sitting there in the rain with the dog in the jacks, dripping wet, freezing, she opened her wrist with a razor blade. When I was walking back down the trail, freezing again, the cold water raining on me. Her lifeblood was washing out into the tub. And we went to sleep around the same time. Me troubled, unhappy. Her forever. So years later, I would travel the world. I've been all over the world, been to many different countries. I speak multiple languages now. My Japanese is much better than it used to be. And in all that time, I don't think I met one other person on the planet who really cared that Asuna had lived or died and that nobody would remember her except me. And I do. And now maybe you will. Thank you. We'll be right back. Close your eyes.

[D]

Exhale.

[A]

Feel your body relax.

[D]

And let go of whatever you're carrying today.

[A]

Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class. I got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts. Oh, my gosh, they're so fast.

[C]

And breathe.

[A]

Oh, sorry. I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order. Oh, sorry. Namaste. Visit 1-800-contacts.com today to save on your first order. 1-800-contacts New Year, new me. Cute. But how about New Year, new money? With Experian, you can actually take control of your finances. Check your FICO score, find ways to save and get matched with credit card offers, giving you time to power through those New Year's goals. You know you're going to crush start the year off right. Download the Experian app based on FICO's Score8 model offers an approval not guaranteed. Eligibility requirements and terms apply subject to credit check, which may impact your credit scores. Offers not available in all states. See experian.com for details. Experian Eczema is unpredictable, but you can flare less with Epglis. A once monthly treatment for moderate to severe eczema after an initial four month or longer dosing phase. About four in ten people taking Emplis achieved itch relief in clear or almost clear skin at 16 weeks. And most of those people maintain skin that's still more clear at one year with monthly dosing.

[C]

Emplis Lebricizumab LBKZ a 250mg per 2ml.

[E]

Injection is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children 12 years of.

[C]

Age and older who weigh at least.

[E]

88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate.

[C]

To severe eczema, also called atopic dermatitis, that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals or who cannot use topical therapies.

[D]

EBGLIS can be used with or without topical corticosteroids.

[E]

Don't use if you're allergic to Ebglis.

[C]

Allergic reactions can occur that can be severe. Eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have new.

[D]

Or worsening eye problems.

[C]

You should not receive a live vaccine.

[E]

When treated with ebglis.

[C]

Before starting Ebglis, tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection.

[A]

Ask your doctor about ebglis and visit eglis.lilly.com or call 1-800-LilyRx or 1-800-545-5979.

[E]

We're back today. I'm thrilled to have Jan Scott Fraser here who told the story we just heard. The Riverside. Jan is an animation director based in Denver, Colorado. Thank you so much for being here, Jan.

[D]

Thank you. It's really good to be here. I just, I love risk. I love working with you. I love listening to the stories. This is an awesome, awesome thing.

[E]

Wonderful. And also with us today is David Newman, who is a therapist in Australia at Sydney Narrative Therapy and he's on the faculty at the doitsch center in A.V.

[D]

Adelaide.

[E]

Hello, David.

[B]

Hello there, Kevin. It's great to be here. Great to have listened to that story one more time. It was such a. Such an incredibly moving and interested and layered story and I'm looking forward to talking a little bit about it.

[E]

Yeah, that's right. You know. So, David, you and I, we went over a few different stories that might work for this conversation and you were particularly interested in this one. I wonder what it was that struck you about it that got you interested that way.

[B]

Look, there were so many things that stood out. Actually, Kevin, I might say probably from the outset, in narrative therapy, there's this idea that we can in grief, in death, we don't have to say goodbye to people. We can say hello again even when someone has died. In a material sense, relationships can continue in our imaginations, in the conversations we have. So that was one thing that really stood out to me about this story that you told Jan. That this seemed to me like almost a plea that Asuna's life is to be cared for, is to be remembered, and that people care for her and that her life is remembered. I found that immensely moving. I also was very. I was very struck with your younger self, Jan, and just all this. All the things that you were doing, all the ways you were negotiating the relationship, the carefulness that you showed, the clear sense that you wanted to offer some kind of love or care, at the very least, for this young woman, that I got a sense you had some connection with, a sense of being somewhat not part of the mainstream, you know, like, that you were. You were somehow outsiders. Both of you seem to be outsiders. And I could say more, Kevin, but I'm wondering if, Jan, you've got any thoughts about what I've. What I've said so far, or. Kevin, you wanted to say something?

[E]

No.

[B]

No.

[E]

Yeah, I would be curious to hear what. Jan, how that sits with you.

[D]

Jane, My goodness. Thank you very much. Geez, that's very. I'm very complimented. I don't know. I was just, you know, when I was alone there, so much was going on with me. I. You know, at the. Near the end of the story, I talk about how I was in animation school, so I was there to tell stories. In a way, I make up stories.

[E]

Whatever.

[D]

You know, that was. It's always been such a big thing for me. I'm a very imaginative person. I love stories. And I think that I just built that. You know, I was like. I realized she was hurting, and then I immediately went to. Why is she hurting? It must be something. Something awful, you know, And I just. I don't know. It's that alienation thing, that anime thing, you know, not anime, but anomie. I think that was a big thing there for both of us, that, you know, she felt alone and I felt alone. And I think, in a sense, even though I was just the OE22, I think I wanted to be alone together somehow that. Somehow that would have been better. Through the years, I've realized that, yeah, now I can be. Yeah, I've actually managed to be alone with people, you know, and so, yeah.

[B]

Just one of the things that had occurred to me in the story was that you were experiencing a significant amount of stress. You were 21, you'd moved to the, away from your country. You didn't know the language very well at all, and you had a significant amount of stress. This walking and going to this very, very beautiful, beautiful place, which you could evoke so well in your imagination, was your way to deal with stress, perhaps maybe even your only way to deal with stress, which sounded very big at the time. When Asuna arrived, you had a sense of being invaded. So however, it seems like that, that actually sort of turned on its head a little bit quite quickly and you had a sense that you wanted to make room for her.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

It made me think about what you were offering or what, what, what you were standing for as a, as a 21 year old. To me, I get a, I get a picture of a very compassionate 21 year old who was wanting to share a space, not, not have a sense of protecting a space. I don't know what you think about that.

[D]

Yeah, I think it was true. When I first saw her, I was like, oh, come on, man. I just, I just want to stand it there and that. Okay, whatever. And I, and then I realized she went there to be sad. You know, that's, that's a profound thing to, to walk out of your house, to go somewhere like that, to be sad. And I just, and I, I could understand that it was an isolated spot. You, you went there for a reason.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

And I think that's part of what caught me.

[B]

Yeah. Another concept, I guess, in narrative therapy is that when people's stories are witnessed, those stories become larger. You know, they become amplified in the witnessing and the retelling of stories, they become amplified. What I wondered or the impression I got was that you were like a witness to her suffering, to her sorrow, to her tears. It wasn't a grand witnessing. It wasn't this highly public.

[D]

It was quite, it was silent, alone and in the dark.

[B]

It was a silent witness scene. I was thinking of a two way effect. I was thinking what that might have meant for her, that you were perhaps a silent witness to the extent that she might have noticed you. I also wonder what it felt like for you to be that witness and to perhaps feel some connection around, perhaps some sorrow you were both, both experiencing.

[D]

I, I've wondered through the years whether she ever saw me or not, whether she saw me and was like, oh, no bail, you know, when, because, and I, I, and that I had never seen her at that point. I, you know, I don't know. I, I, I could never know that. But at the Same time. If she knew I was there, she knew I was just waiting perhaps, or just that I was non dangerous, you know, I just that I was not gonna go there. I was not gonna go after her. I was just gonna.

[B]

You're not gonna go and say I come to destroy?

[D]

No, no, I come to destroy. No, I'm gonna sit over here in my. I'm gonna sit over here in the Jacks until you know, in a way we are sharing that. As you said before, we were sharing this space. It's a, you know, a tremendous space at this point, but we are sharing this space. And I think that. And she. Because she kept coming back until that last week and I think that. I don't know if she. I don't think she felt unsafe. At least she did see me that one time with a cat. I know she saw me with a cat.

[B]

Yes, yes, I was thinking of that. But I also thinking that just the incredibly careful negotiation of how to make a connection with someone who perhaps was wanting solitude with their sorrow. I got the impression of your younger self being extremely sensitive around how you were negotiating a connection.

[D]

Yes, I will definitely agree with you.

[B]

Yeah. Well, one of the things I was wondering is if you. Your sense that the least intrusive way to connect with her sorrow, to connect with a Suna was to offer an object rather than words. Because I'm thinking of that dog that you bought and that. Anyway, I was just wondering about that and just the ways that we can make connections when things are just unsure. There's a lot of uncertainty and there's a lot of sorrow. Ways that we can make unobtrusive connections perhaps and wonder what your thoughts are.

[D]

I do like giving gifts to people. Gift giving is a thing for me. I'm not tremendous and huge ridiculous or anything, but I couldn't think of anything else to do because if my language skills were better, I could have written a card or I could have written like a letter or something and folded it up. But my language skills were just so weak at the time. And you know, I'm pretty eloquent even then. And that was the most frustrating part was that I could not communicate easily with her. So I thought that the next step past that would be to give a token. Give an object of something that was, you know, cute and mild and again, non dangerous and just, you know, that maybe she could look at and it's like, oh, wow, this somebody like gave me this, you know, or something.

[B]

Yeah, I don't.

[D]

It's so hard to put into Words.

[B]

And speaking of that, I. I. With. With the storytelling jam with this story. You said. Look, you said it a couple of times, actually. I was. This is not stalking.

[C]

Yes.

[D]

It's a different world now, and we've had so many episodes of stalking and why would you follow? And this kind of stuff. And I wanted to make it a point that I was not, like, romantically interested in this woman. I, you know, I do like women. I am oriented towards women, but that was not a thing in my mind with her. I just. She felt more like a little sister in a way that I wanted to hug.

[B]

Yeah. Well, I mean, one of the ideas is that we assemble ourselves from culture, you know.

[D]

Oh, yeah. Truly.

[B]

And we assemble ourselves from language that we have available to us to describe our experience. And my sense is that there was very, very little language to describe the kind of connection you have. This is not romance. This is not friendship. You're perhaps a silent witness. But. Yeah, I just wondered about that aspect of it, too. And I wonder if maybe what makes this so compelling is that it was almost like a form of a relationship that is a little bit beyond what we're used to describing or beyond what we're used to trying to conceptualize in my culture, possibly your culture.

[D]

I think you're right. I don't have a word for this kind of feeling or love or relationship or whatever. This is not really even a friendship. This is a different thing.

[B]

Yeah. And just made me think of how. How, I guess I hope for a world where a diversity of connections is able to be described and understood and.

[D]

Me, too.

[B]

And not proscribed often, of course. So, yeah, just made me think that this is a. A form of a connection that I'm very pleased to have described. And out in the world. That was one reflection in amongst many. But can I. Can I go to the. I suspect a central theme of your story was the importance of remembering people and caring for people not only in life but also in death. Caring for people in death and remembering them in death, possibly especially when it's a suicide. I'm not sure if that's how you would put it, because the principle. I got a sense that it was not just about a sunnah's life, but it was more a principle that you might hold or a dream or an aspiration you might hold, perhaps more broadly for us, that people are remembered and cared for not just in life, but in their deaths as well. I'm not sure if I'm saying that very well or if you can relate to the Way I'm putting it, as.

[D]

Long as people tell stories about me, as long as people remember me, I'm still alive.

[B]

It's a beautiful sentiment, Jan. I agree. And is that what you're bringing to Asuna's life as well?

[D]

I think so. She's part of the story. She's part of the story of my life. So when I tell the stories of my life, she's one of those stories, you know? And I have other friends, too. I'd like my friend Doug, my friend Chris. You know, I can say that they're like, my friend Chris passed away a couple months ago, but he's still alive in our. In our community, in our tribe.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[D]

Chris is still alive because we don't talk about, oh, how Saturdays is. We talked about, oh, do you remember that time when we went to Katz's Deli and did this and that? You know, that's how we remember. That's how I remember Chris and how I also would like to be remembered. Honestly, I can't remember Asuna that way because she was. She was a tragic figure. She was a sad figure to me, yet again, but she is still part of the story of my life.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm sorry to hear about Chris, and I'm glad that we're talking about. About him. But I'm also conscious that when someone suicides, their life can get collapsed onto, just apart from the taboo, I think the taboo. And it can get collapsed just onto their final act, actually. So I'm wondering if you're kind of refusing that as a. That, you know, hurt this person's life or Asuna's life is not just her final act. It's still being spoken of.

[D]

I mean, maybe if she was like me, if she was 22, then she had 22 years of life. She laughed, she cried, she had ideas, she watched her favorite TV show. She, you know, I'm sure she had some good memories with her family at some point, you know, or something. It may have been a. What many people would consider a very small life, but it was a life, you know?

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

It impacted me.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate what you're saying. Just imagining all the. All the complexity and diverse experiences she would have had that would have been about joy and sorrow and. And for us to remember that when suicides in particular, perhaps.

[D]

I think that people. And I. I see this in people, what people say and what people post online and social media, that a lot of people think, like, if somebody dies, whether it's cancer or suicide or whatever, it May be they always think of, oh, this person would have missed this and would have missed this and would have missed this. But what did they have? What did they have? What did they not miss in their lives? What amazing things happen to them. Everyone has something amazing happen to them, you know.

[B]

Yeah. I really respect your reflection there, and I think that's a lovely. That's a lovely kind of inversion.

[D]

Oh, thank you.

[B]

Isn't it? Of that sense of what did they miss? But what did they have?

[D]

I have learned that everybody has stories, right? Obviously, but everyone has some important things that happen to them. Everyone has something in their life, you know.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, everyone has stories. And. And I would say many of us, almost all of us, have some connection with suicide, to be honest. And I and my mother suicided, so I'm quite. I was thinking about her also when you were. When you were telling this story. And so I'm, you know, I'm conscious of how there's. Everybody does have a story to say, and. And suicide does bring a level of complexity to one's memories, to the story that you continue to tell about someone.

[D]

It's such a shock. It's such a. Yeah. I mean, well, in psych, of course, you'd say an insult, but, you know, it's just not as an insult, like, hey, you're an idiot, but just a giant attack shock to your psyche, to your memories, to your mind, to your everything, you know, so, yeah, it's sad that people would. That's the part of some people that they would remember. But I get it, you know, I completely get it.

[E]

Yeah. You know, one of the things that struck me the very first time I heard this story, and it strikes me every time I hear this story, is like you were saying, David, that compassion that. I think when we talk about characters in stories, it's kind of like when we talk about characters in dreams. There's a little bit of the storyteller that is identifying or, you know, seeing that character as, oh, that's like a part of me. And the way that you were able to have so much compassion for a total stranger in the actual time that the story was happening. But then also in. In sharing the story, you know, continuing to, like, witness to her life and share that with others, it's kind of a lesson to us all that we can always be more curious about other people and show other people a little bit more of the sort of compassion that we ourselves, you know, feel in need of.

[D]

I think you're right. I think that's awesome too. There's more to everyone than we think there is. I mean, we honk at that guy on the road because it's like, you idiot. You know, but he's more than just a pair of hands on a steering wheel. You know, he may not have the best story of anybody, but still, you know.

[E]

That's right.

[B]

Did you, by the way, can I ask if walking and walking in beautiful places, Jan, was a way to respond to stress back then? And possibly it became a. It sounded like it might have been a new way to respond to stress. Has it stayed with you and you know, through those experiences, maybe even through your kind of connection with Asuna, has. Has that response to stress stayed with you? To walk and walk in beautiful places.

[D]

Walking has always been a great thing for me. It's. It's. I process walking. Like for instance, for example, I run a. Well ran a charity called Voices 4 and we released two albums for, you know, that we worked with. We sold these albums and did the proceeds to our charity partners and stuff. And it was mostly anime voice actors and artists and. Anyway, so when we would do these albums, I was in charge. I was the producer. So I had to listen to the music over and over and over. And I would walk the Highland Canal trail here and then I would end the music and I would think about things and I would chew on things. Stories. I would chew on stories over and over and over. I have. And I just. I walked until about. I'd say about five or six years ago. I am. Unfortunately, I lost my kidneys and my heart kind of is unhappy now. And so I have lost my long distance walking, but I can still walk. I did a little bit of a walk a while ago. I try to walk. That's my favorite exercise. I like to walk the zoo or walk the botanical gardens or what have you. Yeah. But it just. I can do it alone or with people. It's a different experience though, you know, It's a very different experience because I can't process with other people when I'm walking because I need to be really highly focused. So I have my earphones in. I'm like, I avoid all human contact. I don't pet dogs or anything. I just. But when I'm with people, I'm like, I'm hanging out. I don't listen to music. I'm just like, you know, I want to be with those people when I'm walking with people.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I've got images of what for some reason, I don't know if this is a good image for you or not, but of Asuna maybe willing you on with that or something, but at least supporting you in that or at least seeing you walk.

[D]

That's a really awesome idea. I think when I was in Tokyo, you know, I was very broke, so walking was also an important way to get around. Oh, I walked that city. Oh, my goodness. I walked. I walked from the bay to the Tama river, which was 16 miles through the city. And yet, just when one day, you know, I was. So I would walk the train lines just to see where the next station was. Like, it's also a big part of walking in places that I don't know, like Tokyo, for instance, or Shanghai or Bangkok or wherever, you know, I love to explore.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

I moved to Brooklyn a few years ago and. And I had this withdrawal because I was unaware of just how much it meant to me in my prior apartment where I lived up in Harlem, to be able to walk up and down the Hudson river every day. It was just so good for the soul. And I remember at the time I was starting to learn about daoism. And the symbol of dao is like, a person walking along a river, you know, like, in that whole tradition is the idea that, like, a river is like the flow of life itself. And that one must learn to be able to go with the rocky rapids and the serene places as well.

[D]

To listen to the river, as he said in the book, Siddhartha. Yeah.

[E]

Mm. That's right. That's right. Yeah.

[D]

Interesting. Yes. I don't know what it is about rivers, the flowing water. Maybe it just kind of.

[B]

Of.

[D]

I don't know, maybe it reminds us of change, unavoidable change that doesn't hurt us. Perhaps to a small degree.

[B]

It was Heraclitus's comment. You can't step into the same river twice. This notion that with every passing moment, we become something other than we have been. So I'm thinking of that as you're saying that.

[D]

That's a very good point as well. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, Sydney Harbour is very, very dear to me and various tributaries and. Yeah. So I'm thinking of Sydney Harbour as you're talking.

[E]

That's lovely. We're all over the world right now.

[D]

Isn't that amazing? What a cool time we live in the future. Yeah.

[E]

Indeed. Indeed. And being able to be thinking back on this story that is from, like, 34 years ago. Something taking place in Japan. Amazing. Well, this has been so lovely. I am so grateful.

[D]

I have really enjoyed this.

[E]

It's been a very Interesting way to take a story in and then pull it apart a little bit. I really enjoyed it.

[D]

Yeah, me too. This has been awesome. I'm so complimented. My goodness.

[B]

I just think there were such interesting themes all sort of scattered through the story.

[E]

Yes, indeed. Indeed. So with that, this has been a very lovely chat, and thank you so much.

[D]

Yeah, thank you very much. I really appreciate. And I'm very honored that you chose my story to do this with and me to do this with.

[E]

Wonderful. So, Jan, you have a lovely evening, and, David, you have a nice morning.

[D]

All right, I'll talk to you guys later. I'm off to see Spider Man.

[E]

Oh, well, stay safe, and that's that. I'll tell you, I felt a bit sad when listening to this conversation for the first time since 2021 that we did not release it while Jan was still with us. You see, in 2021, risk was starting to experience the financial difficulty that we still struggle with to this day. And we thought that one way we might make more money and keep Risk running was to create an entirely whole other podcast series that we called Real. So the conversation between Jan and and narrative therapist David Newman was recorded for the REAL podcast. Then we ended up scrapping Reel before we launched it. So that conversation just sat in the vaults for four years. In any case, we did feel it would be a beautiful way to honor Jan's memory. Now, I'll tell you, Jan led an extraordinary life. She was the most prominent American ever to work in the manga industry, the Japanese animation industry, and she worked extensively, first in Japan, then China, and finally Thailand. She was an animator, a producer, and a voice actor in the industry. When she finally returned home to Colorado in the 2000s, she created the nonprofit Voices 4, where famous voice actors would raise money for international humanitarian charities like CARE and Doctors Without Borders. With this story, Jan was actually the first trans person we ever featured on Risk. Most Risk listeners never knew that, because that aspect of Jan's life doesn't come up in the story the Riverside. But I can't help but guess that Jan's experience with being trans contributed to her experiencing so much compassion toward Asuna Tsurukawa, the other woman in the story. There's the loneliness that can come from feeling unable to share with others what feels important and true to you. And Jan finally became a therapist later in life, she said, I work with the whole LGBT community, the BDSM community, fans of anime, folks who might feel on the fringes, but who are really lovely weirdos. And in Jan's conversation with David I was struck by an idea that is so near and dear to my heart, the idea of caring for people by sharing stories. At the time I was listening back to this conversation, we Americans were processing yet another murder committed by ice, the masked federal agents terrorizing American communities right now. This time it was Renee Nicole Goode in Minneapolis. And it felt so key after that that people who knew Renee started coming forward to share stories about how Renee would show up for people with thoughtful little gestures, how she could be goofy and affectionate, how she dearly loved her kids and friends and family, how she wrote poetry and loved reading and writing and making what she called messy music. How it was her concern for the safety and the well being of her neighbors that brought her to where she was that day. They killed her. If you think about humanity as being like one big family, it's helpful that we process the story of what happened to Renee, a member of our family, by getting to know some of the stories people are sharing about her, about how she showed up in the world as they knew it, and Jan's storytelling and David's therapeutic work with people investigating the stories they tell about their lives and experimenting with telling alternate stories. It's all a reminder that we keep us safe and we build new possibilities when we keep showing up for this kind of connection in listening and sharing. So let us know what you think of today's episode or about any of these stories we've been revisiting many years later along with the Storyteller. And if you've got an old Risk story that's a favorite of yours that you'd like to hear us revisit with the Storyteller one day, let us know. You can find us on all the Socials riskshow or at the Risk Podcast Fans Discussion group on Facebook or on Reddit@r riskpodcast. Or you can just email me at kevinrisk-show.com Folks, today's the day. Take a risk.

[B]

It.