Unnamed Speaker (2:04)

I'd like to try to qualify him.

Jesse (2:06)

For the US Amateurs coming to Apple.

Kevin Allison (2:08)

TV plus what's your name?

Jesse (2:09)

I'm not into older guys, but I'm flattered.

Kevin Allison (2:10)

A new comedy series Stick.

Ms. Aisha (2:12)

I don't want to go on this trip.

Jesse (2:13)

Your mouth's saying one thing, but those eyes are saying something else.

Kevin Allison (2:16)

From the home of Ted Lasso, you.

Jesse (2:18)

See your shot at redemption. This is your mulligan, Owen Wilson.

Unnamed Speaker (2:21)

This game takes and it thinks the.

Jesse (2:23)

Game'S finally giving me something back.

Kevin Allison (2:25)

Stick.

Jesse (2:25)

You know, Arnold Palmer, I tea, lemonade, mix it.

Ms. Aisha (2:28)

I'm missing a nap for this.

Kevin Allison (2:29)

Streaming June 4th on Apple TV. Hello, folks, this is Risk, the show where people tell true stories they never thought they'd dare to share. I'm Kevin Allison, and this is one of our new video format episodes. So if you're listening to the audio podcast, just know there's a link in the show notes to the video version over on YouTub. And if you're watching the video version over on YouTube, know that you should also check out our audio podcast. Risk has been sharing jaw dropping true stories for over 15 years. And you can find it wherever you get your podcasts or at risk-show.com now today we are featuring Unbreakable, one of the classic Risk stories. It's by Melanie Hamlet. She told it first on risk in 2016. Melanie now has a huge following on TikTok, where she shares especially about issues pertaining to women's wisdom, wisdom that men and women could really benefit from hearing. And so after we hear Melanie's 2016 story, Melanie in 2025 is going to have a conversation with a friend of hers, Ms. Aisha, who is a therapist and who also has a huge TikTok following where she shares about women's wisdom. So we've got two TikTok powerhouses and Brilliant feminists discussing one heck of a story today. Speaking of that, I should warn you, this is a story about an abusive relationship. There is violence, there's rape, there's stalking. It's, it's a lot. So I just want to give you a heads up about that. So without further ado, here they are, Melanie Hamlet and Ms. Aisha.

Ms. Aisha (4:44)

Hey, everyone. Melanie here. So today we're going to be listening to Unbreakable again, which I told nine years ago. And like any good story, I have way, way more perspective and wisdom and insight and on this, this whole experience. But I'm also going to be kind of deconstructing this story with one of my favorite therapists of all time that I met on TikTok. And we're friends now. She's got like hundreds of thousands of followers because she's amazing and she specializes in my all these things like childhood trauma, codependency, unhealthy relationships, domestic violence. She's a survivor Herself, she's worked with abusers. She knows more about domestic violence than maybe anyone I've ever met. And she's also a college professor and is just so cool too. So, Ms. Aisha, thank you for joining us today to talk about this story. And I can't wait to hear what you're going to say.

Unnamed Speaker (5:40)

Yes. And, you know, sharing your story and thinking about all of the similarities to exactly what I've experienced to what my clients have experienced, I think it's going to be such a vibe. I really do.

Ms. Aisha (5:51)

Yeah, I can't wait. All right, so let's get into it. Here is my story from nine years ago. Unbreakable.

Jesse (6:07)

So I left New York City with the intention of probably moving to la. But I stopped in Taos, New Mexico, because it's kind of like a home base for me. I've spent a lot of time there and it's a soul searching type place. Before I decided even to leave New York, I'd gone to Taos for a wedding. And I walked into the pizza place to visit my friend who owns the pizza place. And I saw this guy working, kneading dough, which is like the hottest thing to watch. If he's like a very good looking. I mean, you're just like, that's my boob, that's my butt, you know what I mean?

Ms. Aisha (6:37)

Oh.

Jesse (6:37)

And he's just like slapping it. And I was just like, who's that? I mean, I didn't say, you know, I mean, I casually was like, oh, that's Jesse. You know, I'm like, oh, okay. And I was just visiting on vacation, but I remember thinking, mmm. You know, and then months later when I came back to actually kind of move there for a little while and just kind of figure out what I'm gonna do. I thought I was gonna be writing my book. My friend gave me a job at this pizza place and there he was, good old Jesse needing that dough, you know. And he looked at me like in a way where I was like, oh, he knows that I know, you know, And I don't really have chemistry with a lot of guys. And at this point in my life, I had been working really, really hard on trying to learn how to have a relationship. All I'd had up till this point was one night stands, hate fucks, or long periods of abstinence. Twice in my life, in college and in my 20s, I went five years without fucking or kissing or even touching a single guy. Well, in college I kissed a couple, but that was it, you know, because I was so afraid of losing myself in a relationship. I was like, big, tough, outdoors woman. And I didn't want that to go away because I knew men were my weakness and I was afraid of intimacy. I was terrified of getting hurt. So I worked up to this place where I was finally ready to have a relationship because I'd had a few like, mini relationships and realized what I was missing and how wonderful this might be. And I also had really high self esteem. Finally, after like years of self destruction and all this stuff, I finally really liked who I was. If you don't like yourself, that will ruin your relationship. So I was in such a good place when I showed up in Taos. So, you know, there was the flirting. There was just this attraction. He was also like super outdoorsy looking, which is my type. He had like one of those, like, it was not quite like a ZZ top beard, but it was a little on the long side. He had like, you know, the plaid shirt, like long sleeve shirt rolled up. And he had like these tattoos. He had like one of those smiles where his chin goes out. So it's like almost childlike. He was just like, hot. He always laughed at my jokes, which is always a turn on for me.

Ms. Aisha (8:45)

Because I like it when guys laugh at my jokes.

Jesse (8:48)

I knew right away he wasn't the smartest guy. Like, he'd never been to college. Like, I couldn't actually have like intellectual conversations with him or whatever. But he had the same life experience. He had the same like life education that very few people do. I thought, well, this guy's like me, you know, because I've been a raft guide and a ski instructor. I lived in my truck for five years. I've been a nomad. I've lived all over South America and Europe and, you know, never set roots myself. He rides the rails. He rode the rails for 10 years, you know, and he loved my stories of travel and stuff. We had this thing, we had this connection of being like free spirits. And he seemed so drawn to me and like weak in the knees. And I'm not used to that kind of attention from men. And I'm not really used to someone being that crazy about me. So my ego really loved that. But I knew from experience that fucking a guy on the first day or fucking a guy right away never works out in my favor because then I get dickmatized, right? Because my vagina, especially if they're good at what they're doing, my vagina always gets veto power over logic and my heart and my intuition, that's How I've ended up in so many terrible situations. So I knew I should not sleep with this person right away because I actually liked him. And we worked together and, you know, there's nothing hotter than, like, having a forbidden romance. And we're at this pizza place where the kitchen staff can see the waitstaff. Like, there's just a big open kind of window. There's no wall there. So he'd be literally kneading that dough, looking at me like he wants to fuck my brains out. And then when he'd stop, he'd pick up his face phone and text me, like, some really dirty shit. We'd be texting each other through this window without anybody knowing and, like, just getting away with it. I knew that I shouldn't do this because my friend owns this business, and I don't want to bring drama into this business. And relationships always have drama. So we would, like, go out to the shed, you know, I would, like, go out to the shed to get some Cokes, and he would go out there and he'd be smoking a cigarette, and then we'd have, like, secret hugs. And, like, yeah, the buildup was so intense. Like, I totally fell for him before I even had sex with him. But what really got me was so, first of all, like, I found out that my book did not sell. So now I'm in a town in the middle of nowhere and have no idea why I'm there or what I'm going to do. The kicker was our dishwasher at work died in a terrible drunk driving accident. And I was really upset by it, and everybody was. And we went to his funeral. And at his funeral, I see, like, the mother of our friend, you know, whose son has just died. She comes up to us and thanks us for being there. And he just gives her this hug and she cries on his shoulder. And I was like, oh, wow. Like, he is, like, a really emotionally mature guy. He's not afraid to cry. And that's really hard to come across in men, Guys who aren't afraid to cry in front of women like that, really, like. And we've just bonded over, like, crying about this loss. So it was just the perfect storm for me to just fall into something really intense with someone. I was lost, and he was there. I've been so guarded and never let men do things for me. I'm the opposite of damsel in distress, like, to a fault. I don't let men help me. And I remember one day I woke up in my. I went to go get in My truck, and the tire was flat. And, like, the tires on my truck are really hard to get off because there's so much rust and stuff. Like, even men can't get it off. And I remember thinking, well, I could call aaa, but I also could just call Jesse and see if he wants to do it, because I never let myself go down that road. And he was like, I'll be right over. He came over. And watching him fix my tire was the hottest thing, other than kneading dough, that I've ever seen. And, I mean, it took him a while to get that thing off because it was, like, really on there. And then afterwards, I was like, do.

Ms. Aisha (12:45)

You want to come inside?

Jesse (12:46)

Because it's the first time he'd ever been to my house. I created all these rules because I didn't trust myself. So I was like, we can't touch. No touching. You know what I mean? I'm like, can't hook up, you know?

Ms. Aisha (12:59)

No.

Jesse (12:59)

No kissing. So he's sitting in the chair, and I'm sitting on the ottoman right in front of him, and we're talking. And then he basically just, like, looks over at me and, like, lifts me up and puts me on his lap. And I'm like, the strong, tough woman. And I'm like, oh, wow. You know, like, I liked that he was kind of took charge. And so we're sitting there and, like, we can't. I was like, you know, no kissing. And so he's like, oh, I'm not. And he just basically rubs his nose. Like, we, like, have our cheeks next to each other, and then he just rubs his nose slowly all over my face. And then just, like, his hands caress my arms. I'm wearing all my clothes. I can feel his boner. But, like, we're not going there, you know, it's just caressing, which I love, but no one ever caresses me. You're a single woman. No one ever touches you, you know, unless you're in a relationship. And I was just like, ugh. And then he basically just went along my entire body. He didn't put me on the bed and caress my entire body with, like, his nose or his hands without actually touching any of my, like, pink parts. And it's the most erotic thing I've ever experienced. Way better than any sex I've ever had. It was just this buildup of anticipation, you know? But I had still told myself, no, no, no, we're not kissing, though. My body's already fallen for him, even though he's never been inside of it. I just figured I'm like the Jane Goodall of people. I am fascinated by human beings. You know, I love going anywhere and just being like, wow. Like, I just want to know everything about you. So, I mean, I was fascinated by him and his life. He held my hand in public, and I don't really remember anyone doing that or at least doing that with someone that I wasn't ashamed to be holding my hand. And. And he washed my hair when we would shower together. I never showered with anyone before. I was like, oh, I didn't know this was a thing. Like, you could do this. And he would wash my hair, and it was so tender. Like, he would hold my head in an angle so that the water spout wouldn't go right into my ear. You know, when I was driving my truck, I have a stick shift. And he would put his hand on top of mine and, like, lace his fingers with mine. Like, little things like that. I think I fell in love with that. I've always been known as this, like, sexual woman who's, like, you know, and, like, emotionally uninvolved. But, fuck, dude, I'm a woman, and I'm a human being, and I want love and I want affection, and I want all of those things, you know, that I've always told people I don't need or want. And this is the first time I was able to actually acknowledge that. And it felt really fucking good. You know, when I first met him, we were flirting. And then, like, two weeks into flirting, I heard him talk about how his girlfriend was gonna come pick him up at work. And I was like, wait, what? And we got in this fight over. I was like, why didn't you tell me you had a girlfriend? I've been flirting with you this whole time. And he was like, well, she's not really my girlfriend. Like, we live together, and we're pretty much broken up, but I just haven't gotten a new place yet. So we're just kind of friends. Like, we don't even sleep together or whatever. And, you know. You know that she had a whole different story. So it was also this forbidden romance in that level, because I'm like, well, clearly these two are not meant to be together. And, like, that was another reason why I was holding off, too, is I didn't want to be the other woman. As soon as we started having sex, then, I mean, you know, my heart and my vagina are connected for the first time in my life, you know? And then I basically start falling in love with this person. I became really jealous and was just like, wait a second, like, I don't want to be someone's side dish. And now I am the side dish. Now I'm this other woman and it makes me feel bad about myself and it's not fair to her. And, you know, I was texting him about this a lot, being like, dude, you need to leave. You need to leave her or you can't fuck me anymore. And, you know, some of his texts that he would send back were just full of excuses and not taking responsibility for how inconsiderate it was to me and her. I remember sitting in my chair in my house and I read this one text. I basically called him out on something that he totally did. Like, like something. They went on some trip and he told me some detail and I was like, look, until you get out of this relationship, I don't want to know any details about you and your girlfriend. Like, do you have any idea how hard this is for me to like you and know that you're not available to me? And his text back was along the lines of gaslighting, where he totally avoided taking responsibility for his part in this, or he blamed her. Well, she's such a bitch and won't let me leave or something like that. And I remember thinking, wait a second, she's a victim in this situation. Why is this isn't her fault. This is not the kind of text I want to get from someone I want to date. I mean, that's my intuition screaming at me, like, come on, it's not too late. You're not actually dating this person. You're just really attached to them. And I thought, mm, I don't care. I made that willful decision that day. I don't care. What's the worst that can happen? I'm not here that long. I'm gonna move to LA at some point. I, like, I'm already in this. So I'm like, fuck it. The ego wants what it wants and doesn't care what the intuition wants. I had a trip planned to come out and see la, see if I really wanted to move here. And I basically gave him an ultimatum before I left. And I was like, look, I'm not doing this anymore. It's killing my self esteem, it's hurting her. You're being really selfish and you need to make a decision. Part of me, that part of me, that intuitive part was kind of like, good. This will be three weeks away from him. You will get over him. Like, by the time you come back, you'll be Strong. But there was that part of me that was like, yeah, I'm doing an ultimatum and he better break up with that girl. And I went out of his way. He broke up with her. He moved out of her house and moved into a backpack. And so in Joshua Tree, on a climb, 100, 200ft in the air, and my cell phone worked for the first time in days. And I got that text. He goes, I left her. My gut reaction was like, oh, fuck. The rest of me was like, well, okay, cool. Like, we can be together, you know. But my gut reaction was like.

Ms. Aisha (19:21)

He.

Jesse (19:22)

Told me to pick him up at the coffee shop. And he had a banjo in a backpack and he put it in the back of my truck. And I guess. I guess we're going to my house. And I remember, like, laughing myself, like, I'm dating someone who has a banjo and a backpack, and that's it. So I set some rules, you know, like, okay, look, I know you don't have a home, but you can't stay at my house every night. So he's like, no, no, it's fine, it's fine. Me and one of our co workers, they borrowed someone's van, another coworker's van, and all three of them were living in a van down by the river. I even went and visited him at the campground once, and the guy slept outside and let me sleep in the van with him. But down by the river, when this man's a rockin' don't come and knockin' you know, like, so, you know, in the beginning, I had these rules, like, you know, only three nights a week. Because I know from all of my friends, like, what good rules are in a relationship in terms of, like, how to have a healthy relationship that lasted not long because, you know, his van, guy with the van ended up moving into another town and now he's couch, you know. And then it just, like, I even got him a house sitting gig at my friend's house just to give him a place that wasn't mine so that I wouldn't get, you know, immersed in this person. I got him dog sitting gigs. I even one of my friends even offered to let him have a truck so he could even live in his own truck so that he had a home base. Because I just intuitively knew that my home is very important to me and I'm not ready to move in with someone. I just fucking started dating them, you know, I'd never been in a relationship before, and I'm used to doing everything on my Own, traveling on my own, which I like. But, you know, you get to a point in your life where it gets lonely and when you're this old, like, you can't meet people everywhere you go because it's just, it's hard. And so after we finally were like, together, we started taking adventures every weekend. And this is literally the first time in my life I've ever had a travel partner. So fun. And he travels like I do. Like, he just goes with the flow. We ended up in all these, like crazy conversations with people because he's as open as I am. He'll talk to anybody. It was just nice knowing, like, we got in a couple situations when we were camping. We got a gun pulled on us. And I felt like really good knowing that I have a man with me in case anything weird happens. I'm not used to having someone who might protect me. But even on those trips, like, he just would, you know, lose his temper over the weirdest shit. And at work, every time a male customer would come in, cause he could watch me, remember, there's no window. He would be like, why were you flirting with that guy? He would start harassing me at work with these texts. I'm like, I'm not flirting with that guy. He ordered a large pizza with cheese and pepperoni. And you have to make it now.

Ms. Aisha (22:23)

That's your job.

Jesse (22:23)

We're doing our jobs here, you know. And he was like, he was drunk on anger and jealousy, you know, and you can't reason with someone in that state. And like, we would have a fight over that. And I'm like, you can't talk to me that way. I'm going to talk to whoever I want. You're going to have to get over it. But those fights weren't very often, but they started getting more and more. And with relationships like this, they beat you down because they get madder and madder more often. And then you just stop talking because you don't want to deal with having that fucking fight again. Of being like, no, I'm not fucking him, I'm fucking you. I'm just sharing a piece of pizza with him because it's free. And clearly I'm not flirting with him. And it got to the point where things like started to actually frighten me. His jealousy and his anger. The longer we were together, the more I realized I'm his fucking mother, not his partner. I'm dating a 2 year old. I remember one day, so he had back problems. He wouldn't go to the doctor, he wouldn't Go to the doctor, wouldn't take care of himself. I finally made him go after we had this big, terrible blowout at a Renaissance festival because he got mad that his costume was stupid and I looked super hot in mine and that some of the other fucking knights were, like, talking to me. He'd be like, all those guys, they just want to fuck you. And I'm like, I just asked the knights to take a picture with me because they're wearing cool costumes. Like, everything was about me wanting to fuck some other man. And for the first time in my life, I didn't want to fuck another man. You know what I mean? Like, I am, like, so horny. I'm always thinking about sex. I'm always looking for guys I can fuck. I'm almost like a dude in that way. I'm like, always looking for that. And for the first time in my life, I don't want to fuck anyone but him. I'm totally loyal to this person, and yet everything I do, he thinks I'm trying to fuck some other dude. And that whole thing ended up when we were in a hotel room that night, him pitching a fit about that and the fact I wouldn't loan him money so he could buy a kilt. And he, like, threw a jar across the room and it really scared me. And I was like, oh, shit, he's someone who throws stuff. Uh oh. Cause he never. It hadn't escalated to that yet, you know, but he always used his back hurting to justify it because he tweaked his back. So I was like always rubbing his back, trying to make his back feel better, trying to get him to go to the doctor. He never would. So after that trip, I was like, look, you need to go to the hospital. We gotta deal with your back. On the way to the emergency room, we stopped by my house because again, he would be very upset at the hospital if we had to wait. So I packed a whole, like, basically a diaper bag for my fucking two year old. I got some books, I got a Kindle, I got some snacks so Jesse won't get mad. And then in the hospital room, we ended up waiting for like 12 hours, which would really weigh on anybody. But by the time we got our own room, he was really, really pissed. I did everything to try to keep him calm. And he threw a fucking chair across the room. And I was like, oh, okay, this is a guy who throws a lot of things. And that's when I was like, what have I gotten myself into? Because now I'm legitimately Afraid of my partner, and I'm dating him, and I work with him, and he lives with me more or less. How the do I get out of this relationship? And I fucking love him and I care about him, and I've become his caretaker in so many levels. It's the biggest mind ever. He was, like, always talking about wanting to get married. And I remember in my head thinking, like, there's no fucking way I would ever marry you. But then this other part of me was like, well, I don't know, we get along. But, you know, those are a red flag. Someone you just met, you just started dating is like, I want to marry you. It's like, why? Every woman I know who's been in an abusive relationship, the man always wanted to marry them right away. To me, it's a huge red flag, because they want to possess you. They want you legally bound to them. You know, I knew I couldn't break up with him and work with him. I knew that he wouldn't leave me alone. I knew we could. It would. It would be catastrophic. And I didn't want to bring my friend who owns the restaurant into any of that garbage. So at first I was like, well, I'll just hold out. You can do two more months of this stuff. I had an idea of when I wanted to leave was the fall. I kind of had some plans going in LA to kind of give me that accountability. So I would have to leave. I got, like, a job lined up, and then things would just get worse and worse. And, like, every time I tried to break up with him, he would use killing himself as, you know, I'm gonna kill myself. So at one point in time, I, you know, kind of, like, hinted about breaking up, and he was like, yeah, go ahead. When those videos go viral, then we'll see what you think. And I was like, what are you talking about? And he was like, those videos of you going down on me? And I was like, we never took videos. And he's like, sure. And then he never said anything else about it.

Ms. Aisha (27:24)

Right.

Jesse (27:25)

You know, he was always lying. He lied about everything. So I was like, whatever. So after that one night, we were at work and he got stuck super duper drunk. And I was actually quite afraid of how drunk he was. And I took him back to my place because at this point in time, he lived in my fucking house. Like, he was there full time. And I knew I was going to leave him. And I suspected there was stuff on his phone. I was afraid that there was stuff that he could actually use against me. So when he was drunk, I broke into his phone and I found three videos of me giving him a blowjob and videos of the ex girlfriend giving him blowjobs. And then I found in his texts that he'd been flirting with some other girl and trying to start a relationship with another girl. And that was the kicker. I was like, okay, I've been putting up with all this bullshit, but he's fucking cheating on me on top of that. Like, that's it, you know? And I erased all of the videos. And the thing is, I had no idea that he'd even been taking those videos. Cause when I give a blowjob, I'm fucking focused. I'm doing my job, you know? Like, that's all I care about.

Ms. Aisha (28:29)

I didn't know.

Jesse (28:29)

He's all just, like, recording that shit. I remember looking up once and seeing he had his phone, and I was like, why is he checking a text right now? Because it never occurred to me that a man would film me without my permission. So I was so pissed when I found these. These files. I erased all of them. I texted the girl, and I go, hey, this is Jesse's girlfriend. Just wanted you to know he's a lying and an asshole, and good luck. Have fun with him, you know? And I was like, that's it. Tomorrow morning, I'm breaking up with this guy. I am done. The next morning, he woke up, doesn't remember anything, is still kind of drunk. And I was thinking, like, how do I break up with him in a way that's safe? And I was going to wait to text him while he was at work because I didn't trust being alone in a house with him. He woke up and he goes, I'm not going into work today. And I was like, oh, but you have to go to work, you know? And I finally said, I go, well, you can't stay here. And then he was like, why? And then that started the whole conversation, and it became yelling. He took my television and threw it at me. And that scared the shit out of me. So I grabbed my phone and I started. Because I don't have cell service at my fucking house because it's New Mexico. You can sometimes get a text, you know? So I texted my friend Eric, who has kind of been the guy I talked to about all this stuff. But I never knew. He never knew the level of it. And I was like, hey, can you come over? I need help. And then Jesse comes up to me and says, who are you texting? You know, He Freaks out because he knows I'm reaching to the outside world. He wrestles me to the ground, pins me down. Like, I had no idea this guy was that strong until this moment because he'd never actually physically, like, restrained me. And, you know, I remember from, like, self defense class that you're supposed to go for something on their face.

Ms. Aisha (30:10)

But it was a long time since.

Jesse (30:12)

I took this class. So I'm like, okay, I'm supposed to do something in his face that will, like, take him down. So I stuck my hand in his mouth. You're supposed to go for the eyes. That's what gets them off of you. But I went. I stuck my hand in his mouth to try to, like, yank at his cheek or something. And he bit down so hard on my fingers, I thought I was going to lose my hand. And I screamed at the top of my lungs. And luckily the. The owner of the house lives upstairs. And my scream is what made him stop because he knew that she might be up there and hear it. And that's when I was like, oh, my God. Oh, my God, this guy's gonna kill me. So as soon as, like, he got off of me, I grabbed my phone and I ran up out into the front yard. And then the woman upstairs said, are you okay? And I go, no, I'm not. I need your help right now. And then he comes out and he's all like, hey, you know, because they don't want to be that way in front of anyone else. And she got her boyfriend to take him to work to get him out of there. So at that moment, I was like, I thought I was done. I thought I'd broken up with him. And my friend Eric came and tried to help me. And he came over and he goes, I'm getting all his stuff out of here. You're not to talk to him. I'm gonna text him right now and tell him all the conversation goes to me. And this guy was a stand up dude, man. He showed up for me the way any woman in this situation would love to have someone stand up. I refrained from texting him for a while. All day I was getting texts. Please, baby, don't do this to me. You know that? Please, baby, please, baby. You know, like the whole, like, roses kind of thing. And then when that wasn't working, then he basically said, I'm gonna jump off the bridge. And that's what got me because it's the trick of all tricks, you know what I mean? I knew I would never live with myself if he Killed himself because of me. And he had actually threatened killing himself many times. And I knew it was because I know that's a narcissistic trick. He would say, sure, go ahead. If you break up with me, they're gonna find me hanging from a tree with note around my neck that says, this is what happens when you love Melanie Hamlet. Which, you know, I knew was bullshit, right? Like, I know that that's a trick, but this is the only person I've ever loved. And he seemed like such a nice boy. I first met him, and now he's a fucking scary man. Maybe I am what caused this. I knew it couldn't be true, but, like, you hold that I'm gonna commit suicide thing over my head, and now it wouldn't work. I would be like, fine, go kill yourself. They're never going to, but they know it works. After that, you know, I ended up just slowly letting him back in, you know, like, under new rules. I was like, all right. You know, because the whole committing suicide thing, I had a good talk with him. I actually think of it as, like, the goodwill hunting talk. I sit him down on a bench and I'm like, look, here's what's wrong, you know, And I think maybe this will change. Maybe, you know, and you can't treat me this way. You can't call me a slut anymore. You can't do that, you know, And I basically laid down the law, and he's like, oh, yes, no, no, no. I want. You know, whatever. I totally believe that shit. And he actually was on his best behavior for two weeks. And then he got crazy again because, you know, he can't help himself. I just kept thinking to myself, just wait, you know, you're leaving October 1st. You can wait one more month. Like, what's the worst that could happen? Because, you know, also that leaving, like, look what happened when I tried to leave. How do I know he's not going to do more? And then the part of me that loves him and is drawn to him and, like, believes in this old person. And you keep thinking of that person that you fell in love with and their potential, who you believe deep down they could be if they didn't have all this darkness, you know, People always think of abusers as monsters. They're not monsters. They're all around us. They're among us. They're people with darkness. They're human beings. I would never fall in love with a fucking monster. He's a human being, and people don't get that. And so I Gave him a second chance and thought, I just put up with it for this long until I can just get out. And then I went to a friend's wedding. He wasn't supposed to come to the wedding with me, and he kind of manipulated me into going to the wedding with him. And I was like, fine. He showed up at the wedding with a dozen roses, which is like the most selfish thing you can do. Show up at a wedding with a dozen roses for some other girl that's not the fucking bride. You know what I mean? Like, that just says it all right there. Everyone was like, why is he giving? I'm like, I don't. I don't even know. I was so embarrassed, you know, but there was something going on with him that day that between the reception and the. The ceremony, we went back to my house and we fucked. But it was like a really weird kind of fucking. Like he had a look in his eye that was really weird. It wasn't normal sex. It was like he was possessed by something. So then we went to the reception after that, and he got really wasted. And I was like, oh, fuck, now I got to deal with wasted Jesse again. I had to leave the wedding early, the reception early, because I had to take care of him. And he was house sitting for someone that week because I was like, oh, good, I'll get him out of my house a little bit. I took him to his place that he was staying. So I let him, like pass out on the couch in front of the T. I put in like Young Guns too or some shit, you know, and he like, passed out watching that. And I remember thinking to myself, what's the best choice right now? Should I go back to my house? Cause I don't really feel safe with him because he's super fucking drunk and if he wakes up, I could be in trouble. If I leave and he wakes up and I'm not here, he's gonna drive to my house wasted and be really fucking pissed. So I went into the. The guest bedroom where we were gonna both sleep, but he passed out on the couch. I went in the guest bedroom, closed the door in the middle of the night. He comes in, pissed. Why am I out there sleeping? Why'd you let me sleep? You know, whatever. And then I play asleep. I play dead. And I just hoped if he thought I was asleep, he'd leave me alone, you know, he crawled into bed, he started trying to have sex with me, and I played dead. You know, first, you know, fingers, and then grabbing my boobs, and then Just full on getting on top of me. And finally I was like, okay, this playing dead thing's not really working out. So I was like, I pretend like I was waking up, you know, oh, what, what, what? You know, don't you know? And it's like he wasn't there because all of a sudden his voice was like, almost demonic. And I was like. Started saying no. And he was like, yes, yes. And it scared me because I could hear in his voice he wasn't gonna take no for an answer. But I fought him off for a while and it worked. He finally gave up and, you know, rolled back over and I thought, oh, God, here, maybe, maybe I got out of this. And then sure enough, he started, you know, grabbing me and stuff again. And this time there was no resisting him. He got on top of me. And this man's strong, you know, like, he's not huge, but I can't fight him. Like, I tried and I tried to push him off, and I even said, you're raping me right now. And then none of that got through to him. And he just kept doing it, you know, he was trying to butt fuck me. And he had already tried to do.

Ms. Aisha (37:24)

That in the past, and I kind.

Jesse (37:25)

Of had let him once, and it hurt so bad and I shit my pants the whole next day that I was like, we're never doing that again. And we hadn't. And now he's trying to butt raped me. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You know, so when I realized there's nothing I can do to stop this man, I redirected it into my vagina.

Ms. Aisha (37:43)

At least, because if I'm gonna fucking.

Jesse (37:44)

Get raped, I don't want to bleed coming out of this thing.

Ms. Aisha (37:49)

And finally I just. I gave up.

Jesse (37:51)

I couldn't fight anymore. There's nothing I can do. And he just raped me. And he didn't just do it. He hooked his finger and my side of my cheek like a fish hook and pulled my hair like I'm a fucking horse and did his thing. And the whole time while it was happening, you know, you kind of disassociate and you just. You're not there emotionally. And I was thinking, wow, okay, I'm.

Ms. Aisha (38:13)

Getting raped right now. Okay, yeah.

Jesse (38:17)

You know, but it didn't really hit me in what was happening till the next day when I woke up. I got a text from my friend who had seen him at the wedding. And it's just very intuitive. And she sent me a text and. And said, hey, wanna come over for coffee. And I was like, sure. And when I got over there, she was like, I'm really worried about you. Did something happen last night?

Ms. Aisha (38:36)

And I was like.

Jesse (38:37)

And I laughed when I said it. I was like, well, well, he raped me, you know. Cause again, you can't really process something that horrific until much, much later. And she was like, you gotta get out of there. And had all these people of how she's gonna move me out. And I said, you know, that's not gonna happen. No, if I'm gonna get out of this, I gotta do it my way. Cause I intuitively knew that the police wouldn't be able to protect me. But I went in there and tried to report it, you know, just to get it on file. And they bullied me. They bullied me into telling me they were gonna press charges. And they said they were gonna go after him. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no, you can't do that. I'm still living with this guy. If he knows that I came to you, like, he could hurt me. And they were just such assholes that I finally said, so if I stick to this story, you're gonna do whatever you want with it, regardless of what I want you to do. And they're like, yeah, it's out of your hands. And I said, okay, Officer, thank you very much. I made it all up. He never raped me.

Ms. Aisha (39:41)

Goodbye.

Jesse (39:42)

In a really shitty fuck you, you know, this happened, but I'm gonna recant because you're being a dick. So I left there just furious. And the thing is, you can't get a restraining order against me, someone you're dating. I mean, you can, but legally they have to tell them that you have a restraining order against them. And the last thing I want to do is provoke this guy. He's the kind of guy where, like, I just believe that he believed in this whole, like, Romeo Juliet idea of love. Because at one point in time, we were driving and he almost drove off a cliff with both of us in the car. Do you know what I mean? So in my mind, a restraining order wouldn't do any good. Because if he just comes to my house once, he could kill me. And he'd been to jail so many times before, he told me he'd been in and out of jail, you know, for this or that. He never told me it was for domestic violence.

Ms. Aisha (40:36)

Of course.

Jesse (40:39)

None of it ever had anything to do with women. Of course, like, because he's not gonna tell me those stories. It was always, like, you know, illegally sleeping On a train or some whatever. But that's not what he was in jail for. Unless they literally lock this man up, I'm not safe in this town because I live in a house with no fucking cell phone service. If he comes to my house, I can't even call the police. I can't text them, you know, and their response time would be 30 minutes to get out to my house. Those next few days, though, after the rape, you know, they tell you that you feel dead inside or whatever. Like, that's what everyone tells you. You just feel dead inside. Well, it's true. I've never felt just so, like. It's like someone just ripped out every bit of passion that I had for anything. I just wanted to sleep. I just didn't fucking care. The funny thing is, the body is. At this point in time, I'd also gotten sick several times just from not using my voice. I developed this crazy throat disease where I had to stay in the emergency room one night because my throat was so infected from being so drained from this relationship and silencing myself. I mean, I had no energy anymore. Everyone would say, like, you're not even yourself. You don't smile anymore. And I'm like, I know. I literally feel like the blood has been sucked out of me. You're just in pure survival mode at that point, you know? And I also went to domestic violence shelter after he raped me. And I was like, so I got this situation. I'm like, leaving town so soon. I'm gonna get away from this guy. But, like, what do I need to be careful about? And they're like, well, look for tracking devices. Look for this, this, and this and this. I'm like, oh, he's poor. He doesn't have any money. He can never afford a tracking device. And they're like, well, just be careful, because the sooner you get to the day you're leaving, the more likely you are to get killed by them. I was like, oh, thanks. Good to know. So at this point in time, like, I just need to buy my time. So my friend Annie was, like, going to be flying in soon to help me pack up and move. And I had kind of created this whole lie about how I'm going to California, but you can join me after I'm out there. Like, just anything to get this guy to just to placate him and not think that we're never going to see each other again. But I think he intuitively knew, you know, and as soon as Annie got there, he started behaving because she's staying with us. She slept outside of my door on the floor like a fucking pit bull, just so he knew she was there. She could hear everything. So he would quietly try to have sex with me. I would break out in hives every time I was around this man. That's how allergic my body was to him, because my body was so traumatized. And my body's like, why are you with this person? I'm like, shut up, body.

Ms. Aisha (43:25)

Just shut up.

Jesse (43:26)

I'm leaving. You just need to hold out one more week. You know, it's crazy. So I convinced him to not fuck me for, like, maybe a few days after he raped me, because, you know, I was like, I'm really sore. I'm, like, hurt. Like, he raped me, blah, blah, blah. And then finally, he started pressuring me, you know, on some level, he raped me many times because he convinced me, out of fear and intimidation to have sex with him. And I cried during the whole thing, and he could care less. So it really wasn't consensual sex. Anytime you're fucking a partner you're afraid of, it's not consensual because the consequence is getting hurt. So, sorry, that's rape, you know? So he violently raped me once and, like, lovingly raped me a few times after that. What blew my mind about this whole relationship is that, you know, I've been known for being, like, this, like, adventurous, wild girl, you know, I'm not afraid. And people would always say, especially when I was living in my car, aren't you afraid of getting, like, raped and murdered and shit? You know? And I would always say, no. I mean, life isn't a Law and Order episode, you know? Like, it's not as dangerous out there as you think it is. And I'm not gonna fucking stay in my house because you tell me that people are trying to rape me all the time.

Ms. Aisha (44:42)

Who?

Jesse (44:42)

The Boogeyman. Alleged rapists everywhere. Because I'm pretty sure most people who get raped are raped by people they know. As it turns out, the only thing I was actually afraid of, like, truly afraid of, was intimacy and relationships and letting someone into my heart in my home. And the irony behind all of this is the one time I let someone in my heart, in my home, they not only raped me, they tried to kill me. So that is the reality of being a woman in America, is that it's.

Ms. Aisha (45:10)

Actually way safer out in the woods.

Jesse (45:13)

In your car among strangers than it is in our own fucking home. Once he got tired of playing this great guy in front of Annie. He just couldn't pull it off anymore. He started showing his frustrations and whatever. And by the time, like, the last day in town, he basically got so angry because I wouldn't fuck him in the shower that he almost ran me and Annie off the road. Later on, when we were trying to move some stuff, it was just fucking chaos. Everything about the last week, it would take me hours to even explain that. But we went to the police. I was like, fuck this guy. I told them everything. I just want it on record because I know he's gonna go after another woman. And I wanted there to be proof somewhere that he's done it before. But I saw one of our friends who was kind of a mutual. Who'd always, you know, he's my friend, but, like, had been nice to Jesse this whole time. I saw him at the store, and even on the last day in town, I was still worried if Jesse was going to be okay. This man is so lost. He's so broken. And at this point, I'd done so much to take care of this person. And, like, I had this maternal thing for this man that I loved that. I was at the store, I saw him, and I was like, hey, will you check in on him? And Annie in the parking lot? She goes, he fucking raped you, and you're still looking out for him. And I'm like, I know that's fucked up, right? You know, like. And the day before, I was leaving because he didn't know exactly when I was leaving. He just, you know. Anyway, I had to be very vague about it because I didn't want to die. I was in my bedroom, he was laying on my bed, and, you know, he knew the end was near, and he just was bawling. And I remember looking at him and thinking, like, he thinks he loves me so much and needs me so much. And really, this is about, like, his mommy issues and his abandonment issues and just women issues that have nothing to do with me. But I'm abandoning him. In his mind, I'm leaving him. And I believe firmly that people who act this way justify everything that they do. And they believe the lies they tell themselves. They're delusional. And I think that they believe everything they're doing is for a higher purpose, because otherwise, you know, they'd be fucking like, Darth Vader or some shit. And even he has, like, a heart. One of the things that made it hard for me to get out is that my ego was really invested in this relationship. Nothing makes you feel more important than Thinking you're the only person that can calm someone down. You're the only person that can comfort them. That's all ego. This guy's fine. I'm sure he dated someone right after me, and he's probably torturing them, too. But that's the trick that your ego plays on you, is that they're not gonna be okay if you leave them. And they tell you that, you know, by threatening suicide and all this other stuff. And you know how they say relationships are a lot of work, and they are. But you know what else is a lot of work? Is the relationship with yourself. And this whole time, I had been putting all my emphasis on this relationship with him and completely denying the relationship with myself. And it made me very sick. It's a codependent fucking mess. And I thought to myself, God, I don't want to leave him. And I do love him despite everything he's done to me. But I love myself more. I have to. I have to. And I had to keep telling myself that as I left Annie and I got the fuck out of there, Thelma and Louise style, minus going off of a cliff. A woman saved me, you know, which I liked. I liked that a woman came down to save me, because that's kind of nice and poetic. I go to Planned Parenthood because I had found out when I'd broke into his phone, I'd found all these emails. He'd been soliciting sex on Craigslist. He'd been placing ads. He'd been answering ads. And I didn't know if this guy had fucked any of these women. And I also want to make sure, like, my vagina's not broken from being raped. You know what I mean? I just, like, check it out down there. And while I'm in the stirrups, you know, I kind of, like, tell her, oh, well, I just got out of, like, an abusive relationship, and she starts kind of asking me questions. And basically, you know, she's like, well, did you. You guys live together? And I'm like, well, I mean, you know, like, he kind of, like, lived with me. He just didn't really pay rent, you know, and then I'm like, actually, you know, in that moment, I'm like, I guess he was pretty much homeless. Yeah, I dated a fucking homeless man. You know, because you really can't see how bad things are when you're in the middle of them, because your survival mind can't. It needs to do whatever it needs to do. But once you're out of it, you know, the fog has lifted. Not only did I realize I dated a homeless man, but, like, this man, I had caught him eating dog bones at one point in time, you know, and he justified well. When I rode the rails, you know, I used to eat out of trash bins. And, like, dog food's good. And I'm like, that's not normal. Like, I don't want to kiss your mouth if you're eating fucking dog food. Okay, none of that anymore. And also to ask him at one point in time, like, why do I never see you brushing your teeth? And he's like, oh, I brush my teeth. And I'm like, when? I've never seen you do it. Oh, out back. I'm like, what? He would brush his teeth with his finger and dirt. And he's like, you don't really need soap. You know, the dirt's an abrasive. And actually, I do believe there's some truth to that. But, dude, come on. You're not touching any of my pink parts with your mouth if you're using dirt to clean it. Okay? It's not easy to get away from men like this, right? I thought maybe he wouldn't actually come to California. Well, he did. Like, a week later, he did. And he basically was harassing me with texts or calling leave a message about what a whore I am. And I was trying to ignore him. He sent me a text one day saying. Cause he knows how to get me. I was shot last night. Thank you very much. Glad to know you have that kind of pull. So I'm right back.

Unnamed Speaker (51:26)

What?

Jesse (51:27)

You know, and that part of me is genuinely like, oh, my God, you know? And by who? Are you in the hospital? Why not? And he wrote back, no, I've been shot before. Took care of it on my own with needle and dental floss. And I actually don't. I don't doubt that he's actually done that before, but I still doubt that he was actually shot. And so. And I wrote back, okay, I want to pick, you know, because, like, at this point, I'm like, he's a compulsive liar. I do know that. And that maternal part of me does not believe him anymore. And then he wrote back, I don't need no hospitals. You're the one that pushed me to be here anyway. Of course. I'm like, all right. So I just wrote back, okay, first of all, I don't know anybody who would shoot you. I don't even know anyone with a gun. Nobody loves me that much to murder anyone over me.

Ms. Aisha (52:17)

And where did it happen?

Jesse (52:19)

You know, I play all like Nancy Drew. Anytime he starts telling me I want to catch him in a lie. And he said, it happened downtown near the inn. All the dude said was, this is from Melanie. So even though I knew this was bullshit, I got upset and I'm engaging with this man. And that's actually what worried me, is that why am I talking to him? So I was like, okay, so I blocked him. After that, no more texts from this guy, because I don't even have the self restraint not to engage with him. You know, like you can't engage at all.

Ms. Aisha (53:00)

So because of that, he started a.

Jesse (53:01)

Twitter account under the name Jesse James because he always wanted to be a cowboy. And he would tweet at me. He only had four followers, so I wasn't really too worried about anyone reading his tweets. But still, sounds like you Enjoy sleeping around MelanieHamlet. Then he sent another one.

Ms. Aisha (53:16)

Wow, cheap date.

Jesse (53:17)

All it took was a new Braellaniehamlet. I don't even know what he's talking about, you know, Like, I don't know what he's talking about, you know, first his profile picture was that little default egg.

Ms. Aisha (53:26)

But then he sent me another tweet.

Jesse (53:28)

Later on, and he had changed his profile picture to a picture of my vagina. I know it was my vagina because I could see my underwear. Like, he had pulled my underwear aside to take a picture of it. Now society would be like, well, that's.

Ms. Aisha (53:41)

What you get for sending the pictures of your vagina.

Jesse (53:45)

I didn't send that fucking picture. He took it while I was asleep. So I contacted Twitter and got his account shut down. Anyway, I didn't hear from him for a while. I blocked his number. And then one day, like months later, I get this text from a number that I don't know, and it says, hey, you don't know me, but my name is Jake. You know my friend Jesse. I just found out he killed himself. He gave me a letter before he left my house. Just wanted to try to get that letter to you. Is there somewhere I can send it now? At first, again, I was like, he didn't kill himself, you know? And then I'm like, wait a second, this is all lowercase and no punctuation. This is fucking Jesse, you know? And I'm like, okay. Even though part of me was like.

Ms. Aisha (54:31)

What if it's that?

Jesse (54:32)

And I'm like, no, I'm sure it is. And so I write back, like, what? What happened? When did it happen? What? You know, he Says he. He left five days ago. He hung himself. But while he was here, he told me that he fucked up and he shouldn't have given up. And I write back. I'm like, but when did he do it? Who found him? A couple of friends. They were out in the forest cutting wood and came across him. The level of detail that he goes into in these crazy lies just fascinates me. And then I keep pressing him for details. I'm like, well, when's the funeral? Because I want to catch him in a lie again, you know? And he goes, oh, they buried him under the tree. They found him. Nobody would ever do that. And of course, then I'm. I'm thinking, like, did they find a note around his neck that said, this is what happens when Melanie Hamill loves you? You know, but I don't want to engage this man, right? He. Then he wrote, I don't understand why he did it if he loved you so much.

Unnamed Speaker (55:32)

Why?

Jesse (55:34)

I hate to bring up hard times, but why did you two split? And I know he's trying to trap me here, right? So I go, oh, you know, he didn't like it when we talked about our relationship, so I don't think I should talk about that. I know what's going to placate Jake. You know what I mean? So after this back and forth, the very last text he sends me says, okay, well, I read the letter. There's nothing in there saying that you did this to me. Oops. First person, oops, you messed up Jake. If anything, he reads of sorrow and unhappiness, of have losing you. He was terrible at grammar. And, you know, and then he wrote, okay, well, have a good day. Otherwise. And that just shows you, like, no human being would ever send a text, hey, your boyfriend that you loved, he killed himself. He hung himself from a tree. They buried him under the tree. But. Okay, you don't want the letter? No. Okay, well, have a good day. The thing about this whole story is that, well, I'm free now. You know? Like, he's dead. He can't come get me. And I had met. I had actually contacted one of his exes, and I said, hey, I just.

Ms. Aisha (56:55)

Broke up with Jesse, and should I be worried?

Jesse (56:58)

Like, is he gonna try to come find me? Is he gonna, like, kill me, maybe? And she wrote back saying, this, that guy's crazy. Last time I saw him, he left me for dead on railroad tracks with strangulation marks around my neck and broken ribs when the police carried him away. He will never leave you alone. He still sends me pictures of his dick going into my ass six years later. But he can't do that to me now because he's quote unquote dead. So on some level, I am free. One of the things that drives me crazy about the way people talk about these kinds of relationships is, you know.

Ms. Aisha (57:32)

Why didn't she just leave? Why did she stay? I used to be these people. I used to be like, what's wrong.

Jesse (57:37)

With that stupid bitch, man? Duh, get out of there, you know? Well, it's a lot more complicated. There's emotions involved, there's love involved. Luckily, I didn't have children and I wasn't financially dependent on this fucking guy. There's that maternal instinct that worries about.

Ms. Aisha (57:50)

Them and feels like you have to.

Jesse (57:52)

Take care of them. Then there's that part of you that's been beaten down emotionally by someone who.

Ms. Aisha (57:56)

Calls you a whore all the time.

Jesse (57:57)

And makes you feel worthless. That even when it is time to go, you don't even believe in yourself anymore. You don't even like yourself enough to.

Ms. Aisha (58:03)

Get out of there.

Jesse (58:04)

But people, they call women stupid, and they call these men monsters. Well, that doesn't serve anybody. They're not monsters.

Ms. Aisha (58:12)

They are our brothers, our husbands, our.

Jesse (58:15)

Boyfriends, our bosses at work, our co workers, our teachers, cops.

Ms. Aisha (58:21)

They are men all over our community.

Jesse (58:23)

And they're not monsters. They're sick people who belong in jail. But they're human beings that people fall in love with. So not only is it demeaning to them and dehumanizing to them, but it's also super patronizing to do that because it makes the women who date them feel like morons for having dated them. I didn't fall in love with a monster. I fell in love with a man who was super sweet to me and showed me affection and gave me a lot of made me laugh. And yes, he's broken and fucked up, but he hid it really well.

Ms. Aisha (58:56)

So I'm not a stupid bitch for.

Jesse (58:58)

Getting involved with him. I'm not an idiot. I'm not a crazy woman. We're all broken on some level, but some of us are way more fucked up. After I got back out of this relationship, I waited a year before I dated anyone because I didn't want to bring this trauma into a new relationship. I have a very high standard of dating now. I never would have been this. I have an open heart, but it's guarded now. I don't just let anybody in because you can't. That's dangerous.

Ms. Aisha (59:26)

So I don't Even go on dates.

Jesse (59:27)

With guys that show red flags anymore. I can tell by the way they text me if they value me or if they're a narcissist. And I don't accept any bullshit anymore. And all the guys I've gone on dates with and gotten involved with have been very, very nice guys, really good men. And I've never been in that situation before where I actually trust myself and I trust my intuition and I listen to it. I dated this one guy for, like, six weeks, and then he, like, ended up basically ghosting me. And I know why he wasn't ready. He'd actually kind of even said that in the beginning. I didn't listen, but. But he was a good man. And I remember just being so hurt, you know, because I'm like, fuck. You know, like, I had opened up my heart up again.

Ms. Aisha (60:07)

It wasn't even about him.

Jesse (60:08)

It was about trusting someone again and feeling betrayed and just feeling so vulnerable all over again. And I was bawling for days. I was like, this is the worst.

Ms. Aisha (60:16)

Thing I've ever been through.

Jesse (60:17)

And whenever I'm just crying and I had this intuitive thought that was like.

Ms. Aisha (60:21)

Yeah, but he didn't, like, rape you.

Jesse (60:23)

Or try to kill you.

Ms. Aisha (60:24)

And I thought, yeah, you're right.

Jesse (60:27)

He just ghosted me. Like, that's no big deal. Other than murdering someone. Raping someone is the worst thing you can do to someone because it kills their spirits, right? And, like, I got over that. I'm doing great now. Like, I'm doing wonderful now. I can get over ghosting. I can get over anything. I'm un fucking breakable at this point. You know, It's a sad way to get to that point. But nothing can break me now. And that's a pretty fucking awesome place to be.

Unnamed Speaker (61:14)

We'll be right back.

Ms. Aisha (61:17)

This episode is brought to you by Hay Day. Feeling stressed? Take a moment for yourself with Hay Day.

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Jesse (61:47)

This season of Revisionist history, we're investigating everything from the secret behind the perfect nooks and crannies in Thomas English muffins to the merits of Paw Patrol against its critics.

Ms. Aisha (61:58)

There's some things that really piss me.

Melanie Hamlet (62:00)

Off when it comes to Paw Patrol.

Ms. Aisha (62:02)

It's pretty simple.

Jesse (62:03)

It sucks. My son watches Paw Patrol.

Unnamed Speaker (62:06)

I hate it.

Jesse (62:07)

Everyone hates it except for me.

Ms. Aisha (62:10)

Listen to revisionist history wherever you get your podcasts.

Jesse (62:17)

When you're on the go and it's time to refresh your energy, grab an ice cold Celsius where zero sugar, seven essential vitamins, and proven ingredients meet pure refreshment. Unlike traditional energy drinks, each sip of Celsius is a perfect balance of flavor and function. So whether you're hitting the gym, the office, or your next adventure, grab a Celsius at your local retailer or visit Celsius.com to learn more. This episode is brought to you by Stay Farm. Knowing you could be saving money for the things you really want is a great feeling. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with the personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state.

Unnamed Speaker (63:02)

Coverage options are selected by the customer.

Jesse (63:04)

Availability, amount of discounts, and savings and.

Melanie Hamlet (63:07)

Eligibility vary by state.

Unnamed Speaker (63:10)

We're back.

Ms. Aisha (63:12)

All right, well, we're back. Wow, that was a little optimistic of me. So I said, I don't know about you, but I just. Listening to that ending made me cringe. It sounds really cocky and really naive and knowing what I was going to face later on, I had no idea. And I also feel compassion for that younger version of myself who's like, look, I'm cured. I'll never, ever date a narcissist again. Because I could tell in the first text, like, was that your experience? Is this very normal for women or survivors to do?

Unnamed Speaker (63:49)

So here's the thing. That was recorded in 2016, and that was the year that I left my ex. And so isn't that. That's wild, right? So I had those similar feelings. I thought I left. All the work is done. Right. I'm healed. I got out of that situation and I'm all better now. Right. Like, that's totally behind me. I can, like, start my life again again. So the sentiment exactly. I felt the same way. You did?

Jesse (64:15)

Yeah.

Ms. Aisha (64:16)

I mean, I think this story happened in, like 2014. And then I told the story in Risk on two years later. So I'm thinking. And you know, it's so funny. My sister, my older sister who is always like 10 steps ahead of me and wiser and knows me very well, she, she said, well, I know, like you sound a little too good. She had said that a lot. Right. And she was like, I just want you to keep in mind that I think a lot of your, A lot of this trauma is really going to come up the next time you try to get into a relationship. And boy, was she right. And the stuff that I have put my husband through, which is crazy, I'm married now. I can't believe that. But like the way that I project this relationship onto him, which I can get into later on after we kind of go through this. If I wasn't aware and constantly working on this stuff, I would have absolutely sabotaged this relationship with a really healthy man because I am get triggered a lot by what my ex did and throwing that in his face and punishing him for what that guy did.

Unnamed Speaker (65:24)

Exactly.

Ms. Aisha (65:27)

Do you find that to be pretty common among survivors? Is they. Especially if they're really not facing all of this stuff is just being like the hyper vigilance of like never again. Right?

Unnamed Speaker (65:38)

Yeah. Like, it's like you're trying to undo what happened in that relationship, in this relationship. Like, I didn't see those signs, but now I see every sign and I'm going to, I'm going to do something this time. Like I'm going to leave. And it's, it's mind wracking and it's so emotionally reactive. But it's what a survivor does. So it's understandable. But it's very uncomfortable.

Ms. Aisha (66:01)

I never thought of it as undoing. That's a really great way to look at it. Cause I kind of thought of it as like projecting and reliving. But that's what it is. It's like, I mean, and I know I was like, that'll never happen to me kind of thing. But like, but undoing. Because still now I know that I'm in a good place. Because when I went back and listened to this story, I wasn't being really mean and judgmental. I really disagree or not disagree. But I'm like, oh, honestly, the biggest eye opening thing in the last several years, especially since TikTok is, you know, TikTok is. It really is not a dancing app for most of us. Right. And it is where I start. When I got temporarily in the narcissist niche of TikTok and I started hearing all these stories from other women, I was like, oh my God, they all do the same thing. The details are a little different. I had no idea how, how much I'd been abused until I started hearing other women's stories. So Even the way when I'm telling the story, I'm laughing all the time, which is a classic me, because of course, like, comedians gonna deflect with humor. But I really hadn't processed what had happened to me. And it also kept minimizing a lot of it. I'm like, whatever. Like, he's like Romeo and Juliet version of love. Oh, my God. When I heard that line, I was like, oh, my God, no. This man has almost murdered so many women. I do not believe monstering people is, you know, like, I still stand on what I said in deep down. But, like, I also really minimized how much harm was financially, sexually, emotionally. And I didn't know the word hobosexual until TikTok. And that's exactly what this dude was, is a hobosexual. Right?

Unnamed Speaker (67:53)

Yeah.

Ms. Aisha (67:54)

So that's kind of what I wanted to talk about a lot in this is, like, when I listen to some of these, When I was listening to the story, I took some notes. I was like, oh, my God, I didn't even know when I told this story. This is what narcissists do. Some of it I did catch, like, the quick marriage proposal. I want to marry you. I don't think I mentioned in this one about him trying to get me pregnant, you know. Oh, no. Okay. So, yeah, that was another thing is he'd said, you know, at one point, you know, basically, I was celibate for most of my adult life. I didn't fuck with men for a reason because I just kind of knew that, like, I didn't like who I became when I was with them. So I was out there decentering men, living my 4B lifestyle of, like. And I had an amazing life. And yet first relationship I got into, boom. All this stuff that was kind of just waiting to find that person to work out on to recreate childhood trauma, you know, like, like act two and three of what? Act one, you know what I mean?

Unnamed Speaker (68:53)

Right.

Ms. Aisha (68:54)

And so I, I, I, I was feeling good before I met him. And then it was like I was forced to face all of this childhood trauma through that relationship with him, which I didn't even connect those dots till years after I told this story.

Unnamed Speaker (69:09)

Right.

Ms. Aisha (69:09)

You know, I didn't even know that how much of my childhood was wrapped into this story while telling this story nine years ago. Right. So. But, you know, I knew that the marriage, Wanting to get married quickly is a, is a huge red flag. But he had also said, because I got an iud because I just kind of was like, ah, well, I never took birth control. I just used condoms because I never had a reason to be on birth control. And I wasn't having sex enough to be on birth control. I like literally never dated. This is the first man I really, truly dated. And so I got an IUD so I wouldn't have to think about it. And then at one point he let it slip. He was like, I couldn't believe he said this out loud. And it was so informative. And I tell this now all the time to try to warn women. He said, I wish. He's like, wish you hadn't got that iud now you can just leave. And I didn't see that as the red flag that it was, but it disturbed me. But of course I just like, just blew it off with a joke because, and this is so true, I was like, you can't trap me with a baby because, you know, I don't child free like you. I don't want a baby. I've never wanted to be a baby. I was like, I just abort that shit. If you really want to trap me, you get a dog. And I was just kidding. He brought a puppy home like a few days later.

Unnamed Speaker (70:24)

What?

Ms. Aisha (70:24)

He tried to dog trap me since he couldn't baby trap me.

Unnamed Speaker (70:28)

Oh my God.

Ms. Aisha (70:29)

So I had to re home this dog, you know, because I want a dog. I've always wanted a dog. But even then I knew I'm in no position to own a dog. I'm like, probably gonna move to la. And then, who knows, Like, I'm not ready for that commitment. To me, like, having a dog was like having a child. And so, and it kind of, now that I have a dog, I'm like, it really does limit your life in a lot of ways. And so I wasn't ready for a dog. So luckily I found a coworker of mine, one of the guys he lived in the van down by the river with took the dog. But yeah, I didn't know that dog trapping was a thing. And until TikTok and finding out how, you know, my whole life I thought, oh, it was women who baby trap men. And it doesn't mean that's not to say that doesn't happen, but I had no idea how much of what men accuse us of is an admission. It is what they are actually doing. They are the gold diggers because they're hobosexuals. They're the baby trappers. I mean, again, sometimes women do that, but men are baby trapping us because he wanted me. He had already had A daughter with a woman in California and used being a dad. That's what made me fall for him, which I also didn't mention in this story, was that he talked about his daughter all the time. I guarantee you he wasn't sending her child support because I also didn't know at the time that men who don't have a driver's license and all that stuff, it's because they're evading the law.

Unnamed Speaker (71:48)

Wow.

Ms. Aisha (71:49)

I Learned that on TikTok as well. You know, I didn't know that. I was like. I kept trying to help him get a driver's license, you know, because I became his mom. And I was like, I don't understand. Why don't we have a. Everyone has a driver's license. He. Every time I tried to help him get one, it never worked out. And I didn't realize this because this man is on the run.

Unnamed Speaker (72:06)

Yeah.

Ms. Aisha (72:06)

You know?

Unnamed Speaker (72:07)

Yeah. It's so fascinating that our experience. And that's what I really want to touch on, like, how different you can be, but how similar the shared experience is and the baby trapping. I will always joke, like, you wish I was your baby mama. Right. Like, these men would be like, oh, well, we should have a baby. We should have a baby. Just like, we should go to dinner. Like, common things.

Jesse (72:34)

Yeah.

Unnamed Speaker (72:35)

And it would blow my mind. And I would be like, well, everyone wants me to be their baby mama. Like, I'm everyone's type. And I laughed it off, too, and didn't take like, okay, you're not trying to make a deeper connection with me. You're trying to trap me. But I didn't take it seriously enough. I just. I didn't.

Ms. Aisha (72:53)

Yeah.

Unnamed Speaker (72:54)

It blows my mind to this day.

Ms. Aisha (72:56)

Yeah. And I think is because. And this is why I think storytelling is so powerful, because it is literally women telling their stories on TikTok or on other social media platforms. But TikTok, YouTube and stuff where it's all the same. It was the baby. It's the baby. Because from then on, they can, you know, use custody. They can. Like, they. They are. You are. You have to be linked to them somehow. Unless you can prove that they're to the courts and they'll abuse you through the courts and all that stuff.

Jesse (73:27)

Oh, my.

Ms. Aisha (73:28)

I was like, what is that noise? That's my dog. So that is so common. That trap you with marriage. And that's also what I also learned is when they take the mask off. And I didn't even understand this whole mask thing. Right. I didn't realize that this dude, I kept thinking, if only he would go back to being this, like, nurturing, kind, affectionate man that he was in the beginning. And, you know, and he knew my buttons, man. He knew. He knew that. Saying, you're gonna find me hanging from a tree with a note around my neck saying, this is what happens when Melanie Hamlet loves you. When you say that to a woman who's never been in love, right, who clearly has commitment issues and stuff like that, and then threatens suicide. And that if you. If you kill yourself, it's because, well, he was. And he was a different man when I met him. So maybe it is me. And even though I knew it was bullshit, right, it seemed like the evidence was proving different, you know, and you.

Unnamed Speaker (74:23)

Don'T want to be responsible for that. And even Cardi b and Offset are going through that right now in real time, where he's threatening to kill himself. Threatening and sending her messages. And I've had men do that to me as well. And it's like you panic. I don't want this to happen. I don't want to be the reason someone hurts themselves. And it is so common. You think it's only happening to you, and then it does. It activates this. I'm responsible for the things people do that we carry from childhood. And you get terrified, and they know it, and this is why they do it. It's so common.

Ms. Aisha (75:02)

Especially the other thing that I've also, you know, I've. I didn't understand how patriarchy played into all this too. I didn't understand, like, I knew that I was codependent, but I didn't realize that society had groomed me for this on some level. You know, it's like when I hear women on, you know, all these women divorcing men, it's because they're like, I don't want to fuck a child, and my husband has turned into a child, and I don't want to be his mom. That's not what I signed up for. And I was like, oh, wow, that's what my ex did too, even though he was also abusive. And these other things, I didn't realize that collectively, women have been taught that we are responsible for men, right? And we are responsible for everybody, really. Because if it's not a man, then it's a. It's just be like being someone's caregiver, right? And. And so I didn't realize that. That even if they'll never. Even if they won't aren't conscious of it, they know. They know that we do this. Right. And so they. Even if they're not have. They may not have the thought, like, I'm going to weaponize this maternal instinct that society has taught her to have. Right. They're not saying that, but they will be like, I don't know how to start acting like a baby. And they know that we, you know, in the. In the story I'm talking about, I'm bringing a fucking diaper bag to the ER because I know this little fucking baby man who's terrifying is gonna bitch and moan and all this stuff if he doesn't have stuff. Snacks and water. I brought a Kindle. Keep them entertained, you know, and they don't have to be abusive to do that. So many men do that. You know, they weaponize their moods, they weaponize their. Their neediness and this baby thing. And because they know we're gonna. That's. I honestly think that's one of the biggest ways that men like this control us is with this maternal crap, because they know that we don't. We don't want to. We don't want to hurt someone that is in need, who's vulnerable, who's dependent on us.

Unnamed Speaker (76:58)

Right, Right.

Ms. Aisha (76:59)

And so they play that. That victim and baby crap all the time so that we will forever hate ourselves. If anything, we feel responsible for them. And I had no idea how much suicide threats were a part of abuse. And so that's when I started. In the last couple years, I started warning women if they start threatening a suicide. Every time you mention that you are most likely in an abusive relationship, you don't even know it yet.

Unnamed Speaker (77:27)

Right. And the thing like, being a therapist, for me, I felt like I should know these signs.

Ms. Aisha (77:36)

Yeah.

Unnamed Speaker (77:37)

He would weaponize the fact that I'm a therapist. And, you know, it's like, you see me hurting. You don't care about me, but you care about your clients. You see that I am feeling like hurting myself. But if a client called you, you would go running and you're going to leave me. This is what he would do to me, girl.

Ms. Aisha (77:57)

Oh, my God. That's next level.

Jesse (77:59)

Isn't that manipulation?

Unnamed Speaker (78:01)

Like you're going to leave me in this state, but you would care for a stranger? Do you know what I mean? And how guilty I would feel feel and how ashamed I would feel because I would be called to action if one of my clients were struggling like this. But I'm going to ignore my man.

Ms. Aisha (78:19)

Are you legally bound to do that for clients, too?

Unnamed Speaker (78:23)

I'm legally bound to do that for anyone. In the state I'm licensed in. And so here in Nevada, I have to carry my license on my person, and if I see anything, I have to respond. I'm a mandated report quarter everywhere I go. Like, that is the responsibility that I carry. And it's something that I'm very proud of. Like, I do see myself as someone who protects children and who will step in if someone is being harmed. But he knew that, right? That's a core part of who I am. And I also confused pity and compassion.

Ms. Aisha (78:59)

Yep.

Unnamed Speaker (78:59)

I confused those. And I didn't realize these nuances of my personality and the way I saw myself in my trauma and how he was able to activate all those things at the same time. And now I'm overwhelmed with emotion and can't think. Just like you were saying in this story.

Ms. Aisha (79:19)

Mm. Mm. Yeah. That's one of the things like, that. I don't know about you, but I. This. This. This guy was not smart. And I don't mean because he didn't have an education or any of that. Like, I feel like I. That's what it sounded like in the story. He. I could not have a conversation about. He had no emotional intelligence. Like, he. And yet I. Because I didn't. I couldn't have conversations with him. He wasn't, like, intellectually or emotionally stimulating in any conversations. And, like, I was already teaching him about feminism, which in the end, I'm like, clearly he didn't care. But I always thought I was ahead of him. Ten steps ahead. Boy. And this was very humbling to realize that even though this guy is, like, not that smart, he's a predator. And his livelihood depends on exploiting labor out of women, exploiting, financially abusing women like this. This is like life and death for him. You know, he's like a bedbug. You know, like, they're not, you know, to him. He's like, yeah, when you go to sleep, I'm gonna bite you. That's what I do, you know? And so he is his life and death. So even if he's like, he. You know, it doesn't mean he's, like, thoughtful and intuitive. He was just like. He just saw he could read me just the way, like, something. Because of things that happened to me when I was a child for the longest time, which I really didn't deal truly, truly with until after this telling this story was that, you know, like, creepy old men are constantly target me, and I could never figure out why. And it's because they are assessing constantly who has boundaries and who Doesn't Right. Who is going to be a. And who's going to be like, who's over who's apologizing and who is dismissing who is who? They have like a self abandonment radar, you know. And when I was listening to the story, I thought about, like when I was. The scene when I was talking about the tire. What I left out of that story was something I later realized was very key, is that I was signaling regularly low self esteem, low self worth, and like, self abandonment when it came to relationships. Like, I could be a rock climber and all this thing and feel so confident when it came to romantic relationships with men, with all of this stuff I hadn't dealt with yet. When he came over to fix a tire, he was like, you know like when I said, you want to come inside? Yeah. And then I was like, just promise me you won't hit on my roommate because she was really beautiful. And he was like, no, I came here to see you. But these little sentences that I would drop showing I'm really insecure. He picked up on all of that.

Unnamed Speaker (82:06)

Exactly.

Ms. Aisha (82:08)

You know, he picked up on all that. So he knew by the time he kind of had me what to play at what time, you know, which. Which string to pull, you know, anytime. Like, and every single time, he learned through practice and that anytime I was mad at him, all he had to do was fake an illness and he would. He would have control over me again. I didn't. I didn't know at the time when I told that story, that whole back injury. I am convinced now he made all that shit up. That was a fucking lie. Men, they make up. They make up being sick. They make up. When I told that story on TikTok, there were hundreds of comments of women being like, my boyfriend faked stage four cancer.

Unnamed Speaker (82:50)

Cancer girl.

Ms. Aisha (82:50)

Yes, cancer.

Unnamed Speaker (82:52)

Yep, yep, I'm going to the doctor. And they think I might have cancer. And the big C. You're like, oh my God, I can't leave them now. Like, what? What's gonna happen?

Jesse (83:01)

Yep.

Unnamed Speaker (83:02)

And they do scan you like a document. And we've been talking about adolescence and how Jamie was 13 and preyed on that young girl because he knew she was vulnerable. So these men have been practicing that type of scanning, searching for vulnerability since they were in elementary school. Elementary school. So they got at least a 10, 15 year head start on you scanning women before we even enter the picture. So of course, they are experts at these little micro interactions between people that they push. And if you back one inch, they won. They won. And that's what they're trying to do. So this isn't about someone being a rocket scientist because this isn't about intelligence. Right. It's really not. It's instinct.

Ms. Aisha (83:54)

Yep.

Unnamed Speaker (83:55)

It's predatory instinct. It's instinct, exactly. And it happens beyond our conscious mind. It really does. And that's what that shame that so many women carry, that I carry, I had to let that go because the things that these men do to both of us and women in general, and women do this too. Right. Predatory behavior doesn't have a gender.

Ms. Aisha (84:16)

Yeah.

Unnamed Speaker (84:17)

They pass our conscious mind and they tap into this subconscious vulnerability that we're not even aware exists. We're not aware. And these relationships reveal the way our trauma lives in us. They're. They're. That. That's what they do. That's what they're for. So it's an opportunity of healing by fire, but it's still an opportunity to heal.

Ms. Aisha (84:43)

Yeah.

Jesse (84:44)

The.

Ms. Aisha (84:45)

Unfortunately you can die trying to heal it. Right. So that's why after I got out of this relationship, you know, I kind of was like, you know, I didn't take dating that seriously, but I also didn't do it because I was just too busy. And anytime I'd kind of liked a guy. But I also moved all the time. I lived in my truck. I was in Jackson Hole, then I'm in New Mexico. So I was very nomadic. And I also think I did that for a reason. Well, several reasons. Some of it for adventure, some of it is rooted in childhood stuff. But also it was kind of a self protective mechanism. I had a bed in the back of my truck. I made it a single bed. Like I set my life up because I just knew. I just knew from any like, little experiences I'd had with men that I either lose myself or I just didn't like myself when I was involved with them long term or like really at all. Because I also pushed away any of the guys who were kind of nice because it scared me. I'm like, don't you understand how fucked up I am? What are you doing? Like, what's wrong with you? You know, I didn't realize how much, you know, I was. Kept going after men and I didn't realize also how much it's tied to you, really trying to heal something. Right. If I can. This guy who's doing this, if he stops doing, if he stops doing it, then it makes sense to me why. Right. I kept trying to heal some dad stuff for sure, but not judging myself for having gone through that was you know, I haven't forgiven him. I just don't care. Like, I don't think about him. I don't have any hatred towards him, but I haven't, like, forgiven him. But forgiving myself has been the hardest. Not being judgmental, not being, you know, I'm like, I was, like, so proud of being a feminist, and yet I dated someone who hates women to the core, who hates women more than any man I have ever met in my life. But he also hates himself. So, you know, it's embarrassing. It's embarrassing. And that was my first relationship, you know, But I didn't even realize. This was left out of the story, too, is that he also. He posted on Facebook in a relationship with Melanie Hamlet, like, right out of the gate, right as soon as we became, like, official. And I was like, oh, I wasn't really ready for that. That's weird that he didn't discuss that with me. So then I was like, I didn't want to untag myself because I didn't want to hurt his feelings. So I was like, okay, I guess everyone back home knows I'm in a relationship. I really wasn't planning on going public with it because I always intuitively knew this isn't, like, a healthy thing. Like I said when I was sitting in that chair that day and got that text, and I just already was like, I don't like who I'm becoming in this. This feels so unhealthy. I don't like anything about this, but there's something about this guy and just literally being like. I knew it was a battle of, like, now I understand. It's like, trauma stuff, too. But to me, it was like a battle of my ego versus my intuition.

Jesse (88:03)

And my ego won out.

Ms. Aisha (88:04)

He was like, fuck it, you know, you've never had a boyfriend. What's the worst that could happen?

Unnamed Speaker (88:08)

The minimization of the risk. There was also. I wrote down, I took notes because it was such. There was so many similarities that I wanted to, like, tease out the larger themes. And one of them is social media. And that social media has become this large part of our life. Like, it's like a third part, right, of our life and where we spend time. But the way that they weaponize social media, it is bullying, and it is saying, oh, you're going to have to tell all these people now. We're not in a relationship. Is that what you want to do? Is that really what you want to do? Do you really want to go back and forth? Because we can do that. But you're the one that's going to look crazy, right? You're the one that's going to look unstable. And the way he, like, targeted you, harassed you online, on Twitter, like, and did it all on purpose to humiliate you. And this stage of social media, the world can see it, the world has access because people screenshot, and now they're sending it to everyone. And it is bullying. Yeah, really. And even, oh, we're in a relationship, that's bullying. He didn't ask you.

Ms. Aisha (89:24)

He didn't. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, at the time, I didn't realize. I mean, because that's the thing is that was my thing. That's like when I in. When I was telling stories on Risk. That's why it's so funny, because I haven't. I hadn't told a story on Risk since I've gotten married. Like, things are so. I'm so in a different place than I was. And all my stories on Risk, so my stories on Risk, my stories on stage, everything was about me being, like this wild and crazy, you know, traveler, Raph guy, strong, blah, hate fucks, and all this stuff, you know, that was like my shtick, or that's what I was known for. And part of that was, like, total, you know, defense mechanism kind of thing. But, you know, I just knew it would be a big deal for me to announce I was in a relationship because no one had ever seen me in a relationship in all of my online presence ever. Right? Never. So this is going to be the first one. And I didn't know if I really wanted people in my business like that. Right, right. But once he did that, I was like, all right, well, here we go. I guess this is going to play out in the public. So then I'm posting photos of us together and I'm doing the whole thing. But, you know, thank you for bringing this up, because I really didn't. I've minimized how much of an impact that the social media part and how men know this. Right. Because I have. I don't think I've ever gotten that many likes on anything I've ever posted in my fucking life than when I said in a relationship.

Unnamed Speaker (90:56)

Yes. Now, if you were to put down graduated college, okay, that's great. But in a relationship now, everyone is invested, everyone is happy. All these hearts, all these likes, and it's a setup. They know exactly what they're doing. Because how many of us could step up in that moment and say, that ain't my man. And there's Also, this sort of. How much of myself do I want to reveal online? Like, some of this has to be private because the more people involved with their comments now, I've lost. I've lost the plot. Right. I've lost this sort of privacy. And they know that. They know it. And so you're going to face public ridicule. And that's. That's a core part of being a woman that's buried deep, deep, deep in the subconscious. You keep that inside. You don't tell people your business. Right. And now that everyone knows, now they know. Okay, now with the pictures. But it's such a subtle slippery slope. And they know exactly. They intuitively know exactly what they're doing.

Ms. Aisha (92:01)

Yep. Yeah, they intuitively know. Again, they're not. They're not having these conscious thoughts like, I'm going to make her post me on social media so that she gets bullied if we break up. They're not. They don't think like that. There's just, you know, and I think I understand this a lot. Just, you know, being a white woman and understanding that, I understand power without consciously understanding it. And so when I look at things, I'm like, oh, my God, I know. Even though I didn't know. So if I know, that means men know. That means men know.

Unnamed Speaker (92:32)

They know what I mean, exactly what they're doing. And when I. When I think about it, I didn't understand these things the way I understand them now. I thought I did. I thought I knew a lot. You know, in fact, I was on television at this time. So I'm on the news in Las Vegas. Do you hear me? I'm on the news, girl. And I'm sitting. And guess what? I'm on the news talking about domestic violence.

Ms. Aisha (93:00)

Oh, my God, that's so embarrassing.

Jesse (93:02)

Yes.

Unnamed Speaker (93:03)

And I go home and I'm terrified. And the producer on the show, I love her. I'm scared to tell her what I'm going through, but I'm speaking with so much authority and this is what I'm experiencing. And they know what they're doing. I don't care what anyone says. They know. They know. And it's all on purpose, all of it.

Ms. Aisha (93:25)

And then what's also fun, I will say that. So the two other things is that as a storyteller, I've always known to not tell a story when you're in a story. So now in all the stories ever on stage, I always had some distance from them and clarity and wisdom. Because, no, it's like. It's like it's like not thoughtful to the audience to tell something you haven't a story you haven't really figured out. But here I am being forced to tell a story in real time as a comedian, right. And as a person who posts. And so what happened is in the beginning I started posting because I also, and like I said in the story, I had never really had a boyfriend. So all my travels I've been alone with him. Was the first time I ever got a hotel room with a man. You know, I was 36, you know, never had a hotel room, never been on a roller coaster with a man. Like, I was like, oh my God, this is when it's like to date. Because I also, even though now I see it as a source of pride, but I was embarrassed that, you know, at 36, I'd never had a boyfriend. I never had an o. A real one that wasn't self induced, but like a real one.

Unnamed Speaker (94:28)

Yeah.

Ms. Aisha (94:29)

And he also. And I didn't go into that in this story much, but like, I ended up having to have, like having to have like not having to. But I found a source of healing by, you know, hooking up with a ton of men on Tinder after I had a break after this to heal the sexual trauma because this is the first person who ever, like, I ever had a real orgasm with. And so it was tied to this man, right? And, and, and he also like wooed me with that and drew me in with that because I was, I was, I was, I was so cut off from my. I didn't realize it's because I'm a survivor. Like, you know, like, I didn't realize there was a reason why I was so disassociated from my body. Like, I also left out from this story that I thought of while I was listening to it, that him touching me and holding my hand and stuff like that, that was so important to me because I literally had to go to a massage therapist to learn how to be touched in a way that's not associated with sex. Right. My friend Liz, my best friend Liz would try to hug me and she stopped trying to hug me. And I was like, why don't you hug me? She was like, cause I don't think you like it. And I was like, I don't. And she was like, yeah, but I can see that, so I'm not gonna hug you. And I was like, well, thank you, everyone else. I hugged because I know that I don't want to make them feel safe. Self abandonment, right? I wonder when you feel so going into that, I didn't have any, like, sensual experiences with anybody. Didn't have any just human touch. So to have a man show up and he's caressing me and touching my face, and as somebody who'd been consciously trying to work on being touched and it not feel of. Like a violation and not feel immediately disassociate. It felt like healing. It felt new and good. Right? And then. And then on top of that, now I have my first, like, ah, kind of, oh, for the first time. I feel like a woman now. For the first time. And he opened up that door, right? And then a few months in, wouldn't. Wouldn't sleep with me. Like, like, he used. He used sex as like the switch and bait kind of thing, right? And then would be like, you're a sex addict. And I'm like, no, I'm not. Like, what are you talking about? Like, he started just. Man, he was hitting every. They are so smart. Like, not smart, but, like, they, they. They are so good at figuring. They're like, oh, that one. Mm. Relationship with their body. That. Oh, that and using all of them. Right. But thank you for also mentioning the photo on Twitter, because I didn't realize till much later to just a couple years ago, seeing my vulva, I call it a vagina on the story, but my vulva on Twitter as a profile photo was the first time I've ever seen it.

Unnamed Speaker (97:19)

Oh, wow.

Ms. Aisha (97:20)

Because I never held a mirror down there, you know, my relationship with my sexual or, like, my vulva and all that stuff. I had such a traumatizing like. Like, I just. It's like they were just cut off practically. Like, either I'm, you know, all in, like, let's have hate fucks, but disassociate or just don't fuck with men at all. So to realize that that's the first time I ever saw. It was a photo that he stole. Took of. Took of me while I was asleep and used as a profile photo. And I kind of laughed at that part in this story. And it wasn't until years later of, like, me even acknowledging that that is such a huge violation and illegal. You know, it's an assault.

Unnamed Speaker (98:01)

It really is. And thinking about there. There are a couple things about that. Once again, remember, they're so intuitive and they pick up on micro shifts in our face. And so I'm sure intuitively he knew the first time touching you not to go all in. He knew to create that safety, to let that guard down. Right? And that's why you were able to really experience that. Oh for the first time because he got you to relax and to trust him, which is the first thing that has to happen. Right. And so he knew, he knew what to do. And you described that very well, how he touched you, he caressed you, and he made you feel so comfortable. He knew exactly what he was doing. He was setting you up so that he can start pulling these strings and tie your mind into knots. And so he's getting you to think his thoughts, right. And then flipping everything around on you. And they, that withholding of sex, that's very common too. But don't they make it seem like it's women that do it?

Ms. Aisha (99:09)

Yeah. And you know, and I, and you know, like it's like kind of that thing of like reverse sexism. Like that's not a thing. Right. Reverse racism. That's not a thing. Like, like they say women withhold sex and like the big thing is like we can't withhold hold something that's not yours. Right. Whatever. But I, I, I, I hate it when people just flip it as if it's exactly the same with women. It's like it's not the same. I don't think you understand. Like they literally, there's a power dynamic and also usually a lot of trauma for a lot of women around sex and including sleep trauma. I didn't realize how much trauma I had around sleep. And it basically when he came in, in that, you know, like the rape scene, that's why I was asleep. You know, I've almost every time I've been, you know, raped or assaulted was while I was trying to rest, sleep, you know, most vulnerable. So, you know, there's so many things that, like that I actually like. Even Gabby Petito's story. Did you see the documentary Gabby Petito?

Unnamed Speaker (100:21)

But it's so triggering. I saw like five minutes and I like, I'm gonna break down. I can't handle this.

Ms. Aisha (100:27)

I kind of felt I try to honor myself and what's like I really, I love to use my story to, to help, but I'm also in a place where I try not to self abandon in doing that. And it's, you know, it's, it's, it's a balance. Right. And sometimes I underestimate how much something is going to truly rattle me. Right.

Unnamed Speaker (100:49)

Me too.

Ms. Aisha (100:50)

And I did watch that documentary partly because I feel uniquely tied to that story and that like not many people that I know who are talking about this have lived in a truck or a van, you know, and there was so many similarities. And so I did kind of make. I made myself watch it. But it was as hard as it was to watch, it was very validating because this man, the whole thing started when he took her phone. He took her phone because the phone is the access to the outside world to help to, you know, 911 or whatever. He took her phone. And so that's when they started fighting. You know, he also threatening suicide. Like it was all there. He was cool, calm and collective when he was talking to the cops, when there was a witness there now.

Unnamed Speaker (101:34)

Yep.

Ms. Aisha (101:34)

Whereas before. And so I did actually, and seeing how crazy she looked, knowing what was actually happening, I was like, I actually understood. And I, I forget if is there's. I think maybe there's another word for it now. Reactive abuse. Is there another word for that? What is it? Was there something better? Because I hate that phrase, that word.

Unnamed Speaker (101:53)

Too, but I haven't heard of something better.

Jesse (101:56)

Okay.

Ms. Aisha (101:57)

So when I saw that, I started to understand that because I had always in the back of my mind, because the gaslighting goes deep and the self blaming goes deep, that maybe I was the abuser after all. Because even though he'd done all this stuff, there was that one time where he was like stonewalling me and I was just like, ah. And you know, so on his back, like, imagine this. I just went, what's wrong with you? I just like did this almost like a massage therapist would. I didn't hurt him, I didn't hit him. And I had replayed that so many times, being like, maybe I'm actually was the abuser. And we were, we were both abusers because of that one thing. And that's the Gabby Petito shit she had scratched. She thought she was the abusive one. And then the cops were like, yeah, we, maybe we arrest you for domestic violence, but you know, we're gonna let you off this time. I didn't understand how important that was to my story and helping me forgive myself and like really understand what happened until I saw her story. I mean, like, I had seen it in the news and understood it, but when I watched the whole thing and then watching her blame herself but also be like, just so confused, man, she looks crazy. And of course she's crazy.

Jesse (103:07)

She's in like.

Ms. Aisha (103:08)

She got someone gaslighting her all the time, you know?

Unnamed Speaker (103:11)

Right, right. And here's the thing. It's everything that we're taught about domestic violence and these type of abusive relationships, they have this sort of, oh, you know what I mean? Like this woman overcomes and she's like this amazing being, but they're not. We don't really talk enough about the psychosis that can be induced, the delusional thinking that can be induced when someone is terrified and they're under a lot of trauma. And so when you start to be like, am I the one? Did I. Did I really do this? Because we could never imagine ourselves hurting someone. Right. But what I learned is, and my ex was, like, 6ft tall. This man is, like 200 pounds. What am I, 5, 7, 1 40? Me doing anything to him is annoying. Him doing something to me could take me out. Right.

Ms. Aisha (104:05)

Yeah.

Unnamed Speaker (104:06)

And so they're not the same. It's not a tie. But the way they make it seem, well, you abuse me. You hit me. And then you're like, well, I would never do that. And you start to feel so bad, like, I'm not that person. And then you want to prove that you're not that person, but it's not the same thing at all.

Ms. Aisha (104:23)

At all.

Unnamed Speaker (104:24)

And it took me years to accept that. Years.

Ms. Aisha (104:28)

Yeah. Yep. That's. Yeah, that's the other thing. Like, there's. There's a whole power thing there, like, physical power in this scenario where it's not the same. It's. You cannot. It's. It's apples and oranges. It's never the same.

Unnamed Speaker (104:39)

Right.

Ms. Aisha (104:41)

Yeah. And it's funny, because the other thing that Gabby Petito story was, you know, he was a totally a hobosexual. He never worked. She's working. Like, I don't even. I forget, like, 80 hours a week at Taco Bell to save up. That was her van. Like, when I had no idea how much of a hobosexual that man was until that stockman, I was like. And that also, you know, when I told this story, I didn't understand financial abuse. Right. I did not understand it at all. I didn't. I don't even think I even mentioned it, other than maybe I mentioned. I forget. But I. I am still recovering from the financial part of this. Right. Like, I went into so much debt and then also, like, missed so much work and so much. Like this. You know, if he had had access to my bank accounts, he absolutely would have stolen all of it. But this. The stuff that I paid for everything. He didn't pay rent. He paid. And part of me was proud of myself for him not paying rent, because I thought, well, as long as he doesn't pay rent, this is still my apartment. Little did I know that, like, whether he paid rent or Not. He thinks it's his apartment. He's gonna do whatever he wants. You know what I mean?

Unnamed Speaker (105:46)

Right.

Ms. Aisha (105:47)

And I just constantly minimized. I still like. And that's why, really listening to other survivors and them talking about all these things that I just didn't think of. I didn't realize that men peeing on you was common around in abuse. And I forgot that detail till I heard a woman on TikTok tell that story. She's like, oh, yeah, narcissists, they love to piss on you in the shower. I also didn't realize the showering detail I mentioned in that story. Yeah, I didn't realize that that's actually common. A lot of these men, like, there's several women told their stories where, like, their partner always made them shower with them. And I was like, that's what he did. Because at first it was cute. I was like, oh, is this what couples do? Because he also exploited the fact they'd never been in a relationship. So, you know, I was like, oh, okay.

Jesse (106:33)

Oh, cool.

Ms. Aisha (106:34)

We shower together. I didn't realize that we're doing couples things, but, like, a few times, fine, but it's fucking cold. You know, the shower's only hitting one person. And I didn't realize that was one of his ways of control. Like, I always had to shower with him, and then he's peeing on me when I'm not looking. I caught him a couple times, and I was like, what? Yeah, you know, all of these little ways that he was just like, I hate you. I hate you. I'm gonna even knowing it.

Unnamed Speaker (107:01)

So it's creating a hive mind, right? The idea that there are two heads, but there's only one mind, and it's, you have to shower with me. And so it's him being intrusive into these very personal, private moments in your life where he's just inserting himself and demanding, and you don't have the lived experience to know, I don't need to shower with you, bro. I don't need to do this. But he knew that you didn't have the lived experience, and so they overwhelmingly just step into your life and they take over. They take over. So is it cute on Valentine's Day? Of course. But if this is something we're doing all the time, why we're two adults. What do you mean? What is this about? Do you know what I mean? We're not thinking that. Oh, this is cute. My man, my man, my man. Do you know what I mean? We want to shower together. It's so sexy. No, it's not a reason for adults to do that. Right. But it's this. You lose yourself and become more of him and more of what he wants and more accommodating to who he is. And the more you abandon yourself. But it's not big. You do it very slowly over time. Yeah, very, very slowly.

Ms. Aisha (108:14)

Like, I'm sure you've noticed that there was. I had rules, you know, because I just, like, again, there was. I was always kind of at war with myself. There was like, the kind of higher self, the intuitive self that was like. Like, this is not a good idea. Come on. You know? And went to California. Took three weeks out there hoping that. Part of me hoped that he would break up with his girlfriend so we could start dating. Then the other part of me was like, I need to get this man out of my system. I need a break from him. The distance will be good. Joshua Tree. There's no cell phone service unless I'm at the top of a climb. Perfect. Well, guess who was driving out of the park every night a half hour so I could see if he texted me. I didn't realize even then that I was a dream. Addicted to this man. Right? And that. So then I get that text at the top of a climb, I've left her. And I was like. My first reaction is, oh, no. And that, to me, that's my gut reaction was like, oh, no. And then I was like, oh, well, I guess I got what I wanted. And I remember I. I called my best friend Liz, and this. I. I don't want to just talk about red flags in them. I want to talk about red flags in us and watching our behavior. Because one of the things that I realized is that I never lie to Liz about any relationships after that. That's the first time I'd ever lied to her. And anytime I want to not tell her something, it's something I don't want to tell myself. Yeah, right. And when I told her, I think I. I don't know if I called her or text her. From the. From the top of that climb, I was like, oh, my God, his girlfriend left. I guess we're dating now. And she goes, just because he left her doesn't mean you have to date him.

Unnamed Speaker (109:48)

Right?

Ms. Aisha (109:48)

You do. You want to. And it never even occurred to me if. That. If I have a choice, because in my mind, you know, I come from a family where there was, you know, an affair and all that stuff. And, like, I know the harm that being the other woman can do. To a family. And so. And what it did to my mom, what it did to us. And so I never wanted to be the other woman. And here I am, the other woman. Right.

Unnamed Speaker (110:13)

And.

Ms. Aisha (110:14)

And so a part of me was like, well, you made your bed. You better lay in it, bitch. You know what I mean? And even though. And Liz kept saying, you don't have to date him. Do you actually want to date him? You know, and when he was jumping off, threatening to jump off the bridge, and that's what made him. Me take him back, she literally texted, I hope he jumps. He's. He's lying. You know, she was like, don't. Don't pick up that phone, Melanie, please.

Jesse (110:36)

You know, she.

Ms. Aisha (110:37)

Like, I just kept lying to her, like, telling her a little truth, and then started lying a little bit more and more because I knew it wasn't okay. And I knew she'd be legitimately worried, so I started lying. You know? And that, to me, is a big red flag. Is anything that I do not want to run by a friend, that I'm embarrassed to tell a friend about someone I'm dating is the very thing I need to tell someone about.

Unnamed Speaker (111:01)

Exactly. You know, and you said something else in the story that stood out to me. When the dishwasher had passed away.

Ms. Aisha (111:08)

Yes.

Unnamed Speaker (111:08)

And how you were vulnerable and how you've even. You even did a TikTok about not dating someone in transition and not. And so many of us not realizing how vulnerable we really are. And you. I wrote it down. You said I was lost. I was lost. And there he was. Right. Like, he was like this stabilizing force. Even though so many things in my life are adrift, which is normal. That happens to everyone. But we are so vulnerable. And the way that the dish. Like this person. It was so random. Right? It was a drunk driving accident. And so you're just like, this is so destabilizing and unnerving because this could happen to me. This could happen to someone I love. And it makes you really start to think about life differently. And here's this man who wants to caress you and love you and grounded. And you talked about how gentle he was at the funeral.

Ms. Aisha (112:05)

Yeah. With the mother.

Unnamed Speaker (112:06)

Right. And then we see this, and he can't possibly be a monster because I've seen him do this. And I love how you. That's one thing. Like the vulnerability that we don't realize we have. And it was the same thing for me, not wanting to admit I'm vulnerable. All these amazing things about me, all the amazing Things about you, you're doing. You're living your life, right?

Ms. Aisha (112:31)

Yeah.

Unnamed Speaker (112:32)

But we're still vulnerable to life's unpredictability. And that's hard to admit, but it's not hard to see. It's not hard to see at all. And they see it.

Ms. Aisha (112:44)

And I also think, you know, since learning, you know, the more I hear. Was that Trevor Noah that said some men want to have an exotic bird to put in a cage or something. Like, I really. Now I look back, I thought that, like, an abuser wouldn't be attracted to someone like me. Right. Because I'm a strong, powerful.

Jesse (113:03)

No.

Ms. Aisha (113:03)

First of all, he saw the cracks and also the thrill that they get from turning you into this. Because I think we've talked about this before. One of my things, parts of myself that I love the most about myself is I'm just really enthusiastically. I think there, I said the Jane Goodall of people. I love people. I love life in general. Like, I just have a lot of. I'm just excited about stuff. And I was dead inside by the time I got out of that relationship. People didn't recognize me. My face looked different. My eyes, you know, like, you can tell in someone's demeanor, their eyes, their face. I looked haggard. Right? And that energy. I didn't even have the. I used to get up and dance to techno music every morning as a way to be like. And also as a writer and a storyteller, I release kind of the story. It kind of helps me figure parts of the story out by dancing and being silly first. I remember realizing I was a shell of a human when I couldn't dance when I got up, and I just didn't have it in me to do this thing I love anymore. I was just so physically exhausted by this man. And it was a combination when that moment where you're talking about. I didn't really think about it as the destabilization of someone dying and your own mortality and someone or someone I love could die. And also, just. He was just like him, me and the dishwasher. Like, we just. He was like. We just had this really pure friendship, you know, it was just. We just loved each other. We didn't even know each other very well, but I was always like, oh, my God, Daryl. And he was like, my name. It was like, just mutual enthusiasm for the spirit of each other and for that violent thing to happen so suddenly and violently. I didn't really realize how big of a. That impacted me, but that with my book not selling this thing, I'D worked like a year and a half on. Went into like $10,000 in debt to hire an editor to help me with. And I found out like days before that it didn't sell. And my. My whole life, I don't want kids. I didn't ever thought about getting married. My creative life is everything to me. And he knew that. So to have that news, and I was like, why am I in New Mexico? I don't even. What am I doing? I'm just. I'm waiting for tables at a pizza place, you know, like all that time in New York was for nothing. I'm right back in Taos, just whatever. And. And then I see this man. And this is what they do. They show up when someone dies. They show up when some. Something happens, a loss, something where you're really vulnerable, and they come in and they just help. All of a sudden, this helpful person comes in. I have heard, I've seen it time and time again. And even if it's not a loss, like, that's why I made that TikTok was because I heard a woman tell a story about, like her mom had died or something. And that is when this man, who she had never was interested at all, he showed up and he wrote a really nice card and then started working on her slip. And she ended up in the worst relationship. And so someone dying, losing your job, moving to a new town, any. Any thing where you are destabilized and one of your senses of community, financial.

Jesse (116:16)

Security.

Ms. Aisha (116:18)

New place, those things, grief make you so vulnerable. And that is the moment these predators. That's why I'm like, please do not date anybody in that state. Because usually, not always, but usually the people who show up, well, they know. They know.

Unnamed Speaker (116:39)

Yeah. And so for me, my. My first semester teaches 20. 2011. When this happened, my first semester teaching as a professor, I'm, you know, I must have been 32 or 34 and first semester, and my student committed suicide. And he was the smartest student in my class, the smartest. And there were times when no one knew the answer, and I knew he knew the answer. And so I would try not to call on him. But then I was just like, adam. What? Just say it. We all know. You know? Do you know what I mean?

Ms. Aisha (117:15)

Yeah. Like so much promise and so much right.

Unnamed Speaker (117:18)

This is a social work program. They were. They're all training to be therapists and to lose him. My first semester teaching and knowing that my students needed the therapist and me to hold them together. And the day after we found Out. He committed suicide. We had class. And so all these. And I walk in, everyone's crying, and we're crying together. And then here. Here comes this new man that wants to do all these things and wants to kind of show up in my life. They can sense our vulnerability. We have to understand that we give these things off even though we're not aware of it. And even though, you know, I. I'm a new professor. This is something that me and my students still talk about 14 years later. It was devastating. And they. My students still text me, do you remember Adam? You're talking about Adam. That was what made me vulnerable. And so the death and then the finances, when your survival is compromised, that. I mean, you're vulnerable for anything. Anything. And so the financial shifts, a new job, losing a job, someone passing. Like, these are the last time you need to be dating someone. But just like adolescents, they know that you're more vulnerable to accept their bs. You're more vulnerable. They know it. They know it. And it makes it so sinister and so cruel. It makes it cruelty at that point.

Ms. Aisha (118:52)

And that also leads me to. The other thing I want to talk about is how I'm still shocked at how sinister and awful a human being can be. Like, I feel like before that relationship, even though I'd been through stuff in my childhood and adulthood, but, like, I haven't gotten that close to the sun.

Jesse (119:13)

You know what I mean?

Ms. Aisha (119:14)

Like, sometimes you get. I feel like. Like I will never be able to return to the old Melanie because I didn't realize anyone could be that cruel. I didn't know. So I constantly. And I think a lot of women who either don't have any dating experience or maybe are just. I don't know, like, I'm kind of gullible. Even though I'm like, this tough, there's a part of me that's always been very gul. I always like to believe in the best in people. I always give the wrong people, like, the wrong men, especially, a chance. And then I'm very suspicious of the. Not anymore. But was very suspicious of people who have very good intentions.

Jesse (119:49)

Right.

Ms. Aisha (119:51)

And so I didn't, like. I didn't know that anybody would, like, fake their death, you know, he faked his death. I didn't know anybody would, like, there was new levels of low that I didn't realize any human could go. And so I was pissed that he took, and I hate to say an innocence away because it feels like a childish thing to say, but I feel like he robbed me of any Sense of innocence. Because now, now I know what men are capable of and I kind of hate that. I hate that.

Unnamed Speaker (120:26)

Yeah, yeah.

Ms. Aisha (120:27)

You know what I mean?

Unnamed Speaker (120:28)

I do. And what I learned and I never knew the definition of insanity. I never knew it until my experience. I always thought insanity was like, I see green people, you know what I mean? I see dead people. I thought that's what insane meant. But insanity is a disproportionate response to reality. Disproportionate response to reality. And so once I had that lens, now I can interpret and I can size someone's behavior and someone's reaction. Because back then I couldn't tell what was too much like that his reactions were really disproportionate to what was going on. And that is an indication that someone is unstable. They are truly unstable. They're not jealous, it looks like jealousy. They're unstable. Right. And someone that has these explosive and even the over the top affection, the over the top grand gestures, that's disproportionate. That's inappropriate. I didn't know. And I was a therapist. I didn't know.

Ms. Aisha (121:34)

I know. I didn't know how much they would mess with you. Oh my God.

Jesse (121:39)

No.

Ms. Aisha (121:39)

So I thought, here I was thinking that like, oh, it's so embarrassing being like, you know, a storyteller, feminist. I don't need anybody. I dunno. And then, and then I end up with literally like the most biggest misogynist possible. But being a therapist, I can imagine the level of like, shame and like, how could you not know that?

Unnamed Speaker (121:58)

Right?

Ms. Aisha (121:59)

Like this being so cruel to yourself in terms of what you should have known because you're a therapist, as if you don't have your own trauma.

Unnamed Speaker (122:06)

Right? Like I'm not human and I. With trauma. This is what helped me understand the nuance of trauma. First of all, what we know about trauma comes from a lot of white men that have a very privileged background that have never experienced trauma. And nine times out of ten have not even been inconvenienced in their life. Do you understand what I'm saying? Minor inconveniences spiral them out. And so the thing with trauma, and you just mentioned it a lot of times, we can't tell the cops from the robbers. We really can't. We really can't discern who has good intentions and who is self motivated. We can't tell. You can't tell because the messages got crossed growing up. Because you're supposed to love me. I'm talking about our family of origin. But you're hurting me the most. So how am I supposed to know what love and safety is when this is where I'm supposed to feel those things? But this is where I'm the most afraid, so it becomes very confusing. And the instability becomes our blueprint. And so when someone activates instability, that means love and home to us. And someone that's just chill, cool as a cucumber. That's not reality. I don't know what that is. This is not safe. I don't trust you. Right. But the person that feels like home. And this. This woman wrote this. It stays with me. You have to be careful. What feels like home. When home was the mouth of a ship shark. Home was the mouth of a shark.

Ms. Aisha (123:34)

Yeah.

Unnamed Speaker (123:34)

And that is what home is to victims of childhood trauma. The mouth of a shark. And so when someone activates that, you feel so comfortable. Because now I'm finally home.

Ms. Aisha (123:46)

Yeah, no, exactly. That's how you. You. I mean, that's what that. I really did. I didn't realize until years later, after I told this story, how much more work. Because other things have come up, and I've been working through how much, like, I was just set up to be in a dynamic like this. Because if there's someone in your family who's supposed to be the protector and who's giving you love, survival means you have to make excuses for them. You have to blame it on yourself. You have to, like that. You have to for a long period of time so you don't die. Right? So they keep feeding you and all that stuff. So then you go out into the world. Of course you're gonna do that until. And, like. And so I've been like. One of my old mentors put it into, like, a really good metaphor for me. She was like, I feel like for you, if something feels comfortable for now, it's probably really bad. And if it feels uncomfortable, it's probably really good, you know? And she was like. And now it's not so much that way. Some of it is still the default, but at least I recognize it. But. But now, especially after being with Anthony so long, it doesn't feel unnatural and weird to just be considered and being loved and being feeling safe, that feels, like, totally good now. But, you know, and when I first started, like, having healthy relationships, I was like, ugh. And I was always trying to create problems and try. You know what I mean? I didn't trust it. But she was like, imagine if you were walking on your hands your whole life, and then one day you're like, this is not working. And you try to walk on your legs. You don't know how to walk on your legs. You're gonna look like a little mermaid for a while. Wobble, wobble, wobble. And you've been seeing everything upside down. So it is upside down until you kind of get used to in practice. Which is why I really. It's not that you should just isolate and not. I do believe we heal in relationships.

Unnamed Speaker (125:34)

I agree.

Ms. Aisha (125:34)

But I do believe lower stakes relationships, you know, friends, closer friendships, like, we can heal all this stuff. But a lot of this trauma, just like my sister predicted, like I said in the beginning, came up in relationships, and especially the safe ones. The way I didn't realize how much my ex had traumatized me until here's an example. And I don't go into it in that story. He tried, he cooked some dinner. He's, you know, he's French, so of course he's like, food's important, right? And so he cooked something. And I was like, ah, you know, and he worked hard on this. I forget what it was, what meal it was. And I was like, I don't. I'm so like, I'm gonna have something else. I'm not really interested in that. And also used to have like an eating disorder for like a long time. So I now I'm like, have neutrality around it. But like, I don't eat things, I don't want to eat anymore. Right. But out of like people pleasing, right? And so I was like, I don't really want it. And he was like, come on, babe. I like worked on it all day. Can you just try it? And I was like, no. And then, and then he was like, just disappointed. And I was like, come eat. And I was like, whoa, this feels outsized. Well, one of the things, one of the worst moments of my relationship was when, I mean, he'd kind of done this. But this was like the most telling is that he was just. He wanted to make me elk soup. Okay. I was a vegetarian, so that's another level of like mouth rape is making me eat something meat that I don't even, you know.

Unnamed Speaker (127:02)

Yeah.

Ms. Aisha (127:03)

And like he. And it wasn't that thing. I was like, I could say, I couldn't say no because you know how anger goes if you say, I don't really want to eat that.

Jesse (127:11)

Oh.

Ms. Aisha (127:11)

And it's a whole thing. And the whole thing is about da, da, da. So you just end up self abandoning over the dumbest things because it's not worth it. So I'm sitting here on the couch watching Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, which I would never watch on my own. You know, I was like, this is the dumbest movie. I'm high because now I smoke weed too, even though I haven't done that. Some high school, because I don't really like it. He had also gotten me to smoke, which also broke my boundaries down and I couldn't see straight. And I'm high. I'm watching Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and I'm eating something I don't want to eat that I would never eat all so he won't get mad. And I felt so. That to me, almost felt worse than like the rape, you know, because it's three levels of self abandonment and not even recognizing myself. And it kind of, it wasn't. It just, it's. I just remember being like that being a moment where I realized I don't even know who I am anymore. I have, I'm. I'm. I. Who am I? Right? You lose yourself with a person like this. So here I am wanting to blow up on my husband because he's asking me to try something. He, he spent shopped for cooked and whatever. And I'm like, now. And so he just sees it as. So immediately he's like, oh, hey, this is about something much different. So many things come up in our relationship where I didn't even realize I had trauma around it until something triggers it. And so thank God I have my friends, my community, who help me see the true from the false. Because this stuff comes up and you're like, wait, is this a red flag that I need a divorce? You know, I mean, I literally would. I have almost blown up this relationship so many times because I went from a. To, to why, you know, in like a matter of seconds, as a way, like you said before, to undo the past.

Unnamed Speaker (129:03)

Yes.

Ms. Aisha (129:04)

To think, oh, no one's doing this to me again, right? Nope, not on my watch. And then here's this, like, amazing person. I don't actually want to divorce, and I love truly, and I'm at war with myself and I can't think straight. And so you really need a strong community of people who are going to call you on your crap gently and tell you, no, that's not what's happening here. Who know you, who know them, you know, who can help you see through this mind fuck that continues to happen, what, 10 years later, you know?

Unnamed Speaker (129:35)

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Ms. Aisha (129:38)

Which is why I was laughing at the end of that story. I'm unbreakable. I'll never Okay.

Unnamed Speaker (129:45)

I think one of the, one of the things that you mentioned that I really want to touch on and really I would like for you just to talk a little bit more about it was you really emphasize that he's not a monster. Like, that's the first thing that I wrote down. And it, you really, really emphasize that, like, these men are our brothers, they're pastors, they're people. He's a person. And I love how you stepped out of black and white thinking from the standpoint of like, any man who abuses a woman is a monster. And so when we think that way, that's what we're looking for. We're not realizing that this is a person and this is the same person that was very gentle caressing you. Even if his motivation was manipulative, he was that he's still that person. Do you know what I mean? And so can you talk more about how did you get. Were you always able to see him as a person and not as a monster? Or did you get there?

Ms. Aisha (130:46)

So I think, I think I actually ended up talking a little bit about. I have another hour long podcast called One of the Boys. And I really think having worked with teenage boys and worked with mostly men and been like a tomboy myself and just really relating to men more than women, partly out of internalized misogyny, pick me, cool girl crap, but partly just because. And even now, like, Anthony's kind of more the like, heart of our relationship. Like, I'm kind of the dude still. Like, that's just, I'm just, you know, I'm not like naturally nurturing. That's just not who I am. But I can be. And I'm soft now. I'm wearing a dress right now. Look at me. I would never do that in the past, right? So I'm trying to be more in the middle, but I, even though they've traumatized me so much, I love men, right? And so there's that. And I worked with a teenage boy on one of these 23 day backpacking courses who was 14 at the time and whose stepfather was abusing his mom. He was terrified. He went crazy in the woods trying to. Because he was so worried about her. He was going crazy. He couldn't call, he know she was dead. Like, he was her protector because he's a big guy, he's only 14, but he was finally big enough to protect his mom. And my ex. His dad had abused his mom and he had. Well, he could have made all this up, but his, the lack, you know, his dad, he like, you know, like fought with his dad to save his mom's life. There's all this stuff. His mom was a, was a victim of domestic violence and he saw himself as a protector. And I just remember I kept. And maybe almost to a fault because I think I excused his behavior too much because I was maybe humanizing him a little too much or like giving him too much of the benefit of the doubt. But I just remember thinking this 14 year old kid, if he doesn't get help, he will end up being his stepdad. Right now I feel so bad for this kid. He's 14, you know.

Unnamed Speaker (132:38)

Yeah.

Ms. Aisha (132:39)

He's lost. Like, he's so worried about his mom. He like, what's the difference between him and this guy I'm dating now? One's an adult and one's a kid, you know. And so I kept projecting that teenage boy onto this man, which ended up, you know, me kind of not excusing his behavior, but like really not understanding how calculated it was. And I really honestly think that he is someone who is beyond help because when I found out the last time his ex had seen him, he, you know, had tried to choke her to death on railroad tracks. And he still. And then he cheated on me with all these women. Apparently he faked it. I'm friends with one of the women he was cheating on me with while we were together. I found out all this later on that he's done this to so many women. It's like that there's, there's a line of bodies. I don't think this man is. I think he's beyond being ever being a safe person to date. Right. And I also, like, I don't know, like, I think a lot of it just comes from my. When you have people in your family that are, you know, messed up and you love them anyway and you see like my dad, like he did a lot of harm, but I always like saw him as like just trying so hard to be a better person. And he was. Got in his own way, you know what I mean? And he's probably a monster in someone else's story. He definitely was a monster in my story on some level. And yet I loved him. So I personally, because of, maybe because of my family and some of the members of my family, I can't separate the humanity from the person, but almost to a fault. Do you know what I mean? I do see it as a strength and I think I kind of leaned hard into that when I told this story. But I don't ever want to Lose that insight. I don't ever want to dehumanize because I. They don't just do this for no reason, you know? Like, they're not just, hey, I'm bored. I'm just gonna do this. Like, to me, it's not that everyone who's abused becomes an abuser, but you will never convince me that anybody other than, let's say, literally are like, a psychopath or something. Like, we're all like, you know, like, that whole thing, if you don't deal with your wounds, you'll bleed out on everyone closest to you. Whatever. Like, I think the way that I've seen it in myself, the way that I've not been proud of some of my behavior in the past, the way I'm always evolving and growing, I always want to give that grace to everyone, to evolve and grow and learn and do better. But maybe I'm a little too optimistic. I don't know. What do you think? Because I think you and I see eye to eye on this. But, like, I don't know what. Where you're coming from around the. Like, I don't think it's helpful to call people, these men, monsters because they're everywhere. They're everywhere. And that's, like, really isolating for victims for you to call them monsters, because it's like. And that whole thing of, like, I'm not stupid, okay? Like, I wouldn't have dated a monster. These men are, like, pretend to be stuff. So I'm curious, like, how do you reckon with this? Because you've worked with abusers, and so you probably had to, like, you've probably seen their humanity way more from having to try to help them. Right?

Unnamed Speaker (135:57)

For me, I had to realize that idealization isn't always positive, and idealization is dehumanizing someone. And so we often only talk about it as pedestalizing someone. We don't talk about it as demonizing someone. And seeing someone as all bad is idealizing them. You're taking away their humanity. And seeing someone is all good. You're taking away their humanity. And so I didn't understand that nuance. And for a couple years out of the relationship, I felt like he was a monster. But because I felt like he was a monster, I couldn't see those signs in other people that didn't present as aggressive that. That weren't argumentative or jealous. Because a lot of people who are manipulative in that way and emotionally abusive present as depressed as, you know, really pitiful. I can't figure this out. And they Control you with that. But they don't present as monsters. They present as victims.

Ms. Aisha (136:59)

Yes.

Unnamed Speaker (137:00)

And so you have a different reaction. Right. But as long as I wasn't looking at a person, then I couldn't make healthy choices. But then that also cast me in this sort of shameful space because, like you said, okay, so I was in love with a monster. What does that say about me?

Ms. Aisha (137:17)

Yeah, right.

Unnamed Speaker (137:18)

How can I find my humanity when I'm taking it away from someone else? And so that is a healing process. And I think it takes a lot to come to that. That's a worldview where you start to realize that, you know, a lot of people that no one would think are this way. They are exactly this way. And if you. Like I said, if you only see a monster, you can't see the baseball coach who's doing this to his wife, because you only see a baseball coach. You're only seeing one slice of them, understanding that they are complex. And I think that shift allows us to make healthier choices about the people that are in our life, and we can see them in totality and not overemphasize what we like or even over emphasize what we don't like.

Ms. Aisha (138:06)

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, because that's the thing is, like, there were so many red flags, but I overemphasized the green flags. Like, he cares about his daughter. Now, of course, at the end, I realized that he is literally just using his daughter to get to women because he never sees her, doesn't pay child support. He just shows photos of her all the time. Like, he's a good dad. But how perfect is it that someone who has, like, whose dad left when I was 4 because of an affair and who just all this other stuff, how perfect would I be? Like, oh, wow, he loves his daughter. Green flag.

Unnamed Speaker (138:37)

Yeah.

Ms. Aisha (138:37)

And then all these other things of him saying, like, bragging about never hitting a woman, which, to me, I was like, that is. He was. I've never hit a woman. I was like, why are you saying that? Where did that come from? Like, all these, like, huge red flags. I also wanted to hit on because I don't want. Like, I know we can't go on forever, and you and I could. But one of the things I also wanted to mention was I don't. I want to be careful because. Because I like. I like I did at the end of that story. I was like, now I know. You know, I can tell by texting if he's a narcissist. I was like, oh, my God, no, I couldn't because I definitely ended up hanging out with some unhealthy men, you know, by. By, you know, ignoring red flags or just being like, no, I'm being too harsh or whatever after recording that. But I don't like to lean too much into, like. Because women, I don't know if they do this to you all the time. They're like, what are the red flags? And I'm like, dude, there is no list. Okay. I can tell you things to look for, to keep in mind, because I do think education is going to be helpful. But there's no list because one thing that I say is actually going to be a green flag in a different context. Right. Like any. It's like a food plan for relationships. It's very rigid. And the world is not like that. People are not like that. Right, Right. And so this idea that, like, you know, you're always gonna. You can never. They're kind of like that thing. Well, I could never end up in a cult. Those are the very people who end up in cults. Right. This is like cocky and overconfident, right?

Unnamed Speaker (140:05)

Yep.

Ms. Aisha (140:06)

So if I. If so, I. I realized that I have to ride this middle place of, like, I don't want to be somebody who's like, these are all the red flags and da, da, da. Because that is also very, like, that's kind of like victim shamy and whatever. Right. Like, I don't. And I also think that it was empowering. When I went back and I read some of my notes, I took notes, you know, and I really. I encourage women to take notes in their relationships, especially if there's problems, because those notes help me stay grounded. It's like, you know the facts, because my mind is all over the place. And when I go back and sometimes I've read them in videos or TikTok, I'm like, look at this. I was like, I don't understand. He never works. He never. And I was like, I knew all of this and I was taking notes. I noticed it. Whereas I, when I think back, I was just dumb and stupid and was totally. No, I knew. And so I like to look at it as like, it's like going to the intuition gym. Right? It's like my intuition all the time was like, hey, hey, hey, hey. Right? And yet I was like, nah, it's fine. It's no big deal. What's the worst that could happen? I was ignoring my intuition. But there's a lot of things that I actually, I knew, but I just didn't Want to see? Because I had trauma, childhood trauma, my nervous system, dysregulation, being gaslit, lied to. I had all these things, you know, enjoying sex for the first time. Like, all these things working against my intuition. And at the same time, the other thing and maybe you know about this is. Is it my intuition or is it a trauma response? Which is the intuition?

Unnamed Speaker (141:39)

Yeah.

Ms. Aisha (141:39)

Because my intuition tells me that person's dangerous. Like, no, it's. No, you're projecting. This is something else. And so, you know, I. Like, there's no list that will keep you safe. Anyone can end up with an abuser again. And there are a lot of things that you can do. One is work on your community, date in community, or have relationships in community so that you are never assessing all this on your own. Right? Like, practice trusting your intuition and dating yourself, having a relationship, getting to know yourself. Like, all these things. And, you know, therapy, dealing with all this stuff. And at the end of the day, like, I could probably end up in a terrible situation at some point too, because I. Who knows? In a vulnerable moment, someone dies. Maybe I miss all that.

Unnamed Speaker (142:22)

Right.

Ms. Aisha (142:23)

You know what I mean?

Unnamed Speaker (142:23)

But that, to me, I didn't realize that that is really the best place to sort of live your life from the standpoint of, listen, I'm capable of this. I'm capable of someone being very attractive and me overvaluing that over other things about them. I've done that. So nine times out of 10, if I've done it in the past, it's possible it can happen again. Do you understand what I'm saying?

Ms. Aisha (142:49)

Yeah.

Unnamed Speaker (142:49)

There's just certain things in men that I really like. And when I see someone, I always say, because I like tall men, I'm like, anything over six feet, I'm gonna give you those red flags. So if you six, four, you got four red flags that we gonna have to just work with, you know what I'm saying? Because I know what I like. I know what my aesthetic is. I love the tattoos, girl.

Ms. Aisha (143:09)

Yeah.

Unnamed Speaker (143:10)

And so I know that I have a vulnerability, okay? I have a vulnerability. I was traumatized. My father died in front of me, okay? He. He was. I look just like this man. Do you understand?

Ms. Aisha (143:25)

I look just like my dad, too.

Unnamed Speaker (143:26)

I look just like him. The big head. You know what I mean? Big old eyes. Like, this is my reality. So there is that pain that lives in me that I don't even know about, and there are times that it's going to be activated, and I have to allow that to exist like this is who I am. I'm fantastic. But I'm also a survivor of trauma.

Ms. Aisha (143:50)

Yeah.

Unnamed Speaker (143:51)

And that means that certain people are drawn to me and I'm drawn to them. Okay.

Jesse (143:56)

Yeah.

Unnamed Speaker (143:56)

And that also means that I need other people to hold me and help me make these choices. I can't make them on my own. I can't, because I'll end up with somebody, six, five tattoos, with all kind of problems, and I'm trying to fix it, and I'm not realizing what I'm doing, because when that part of me is activated, it feels so much like me.

Ms. Aisha (144:19)

Yeah. So.

Unnamed Speaker (144:20)

So much like me. And so the humility says that I need help in this area of my life. I need people that love me. I need my therapist. I need my support group. I need other people to help me to stay healthy. I can't do it on my own. And admitting that is what helps me to stay free.

Ms. Aisha (144:41)

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And that's that community piece. Cause I think a lot of survivors kind of go to, like, I don't want to talk to anyone. I don't ever get close, close to anyone again. And you can't. You can work on yourself on your own some. But I really, in my experience, like, the real healing is within community, being in, you know, like. Like, I mean, right out of the gate, I almost, like, hooked up with four different dudes while Anthony went out of town when we first started dating, because I was assumed that he was going to hook up with people. So I was like, well, if he's going to hook up, I'm going to fuck 4. I had dates set up and I was like, wait, maybe I should run this. This by somebody. I didn't. People who knew me and knew, they're like, that's not what's happening. And why are you doing this? Do you really want to hook up with four dudes? And I was like, not really. They're like, why are you doing it? I was like, oh, it's because I don't like feeling vulnerable.

Unnamed Speaker (145:33)

Yeah.

Ms. Aisha (145:35)

I don't. Like, I'd rather just burn this thing down and just. Just in case, you know. And so it ended up, like, leading to a really beautiful conversation. And on all this, like, I was. It was like a practice in, am I going to let this being activated destroy something, or am I going to take. Use the resources in my little toolbox? Right. I got my Liz, I got my mentors. I have. And also, like, a French man friend who knows French men, you know, because the dating culture is different. So I Like, ran it by, and everyone was like, everybody was, no, dude, that's not what's happening here. And so I didn't do it. And I realized if I had done that, I would have felt awful about myself because I wasn't doing for pleasure, for fun, for connection. It was literally because I'm afraid of feeling vulnerable, and I'm projecting him cheating because my ex was cheating with all these people. Right. So I fully agree. Like, we just. I think being too cocky or being, like, isolating and. Or, you know, like, either extreme is not a good place, because that's how you actually end up being targeted again. You know what I mean?

Unnamed Speaker (146:40)

Yeah, absolutely. That's what makes us vulnerable. And then I think, is just to go back to community.

Ms. Aisha (146:47)

Yeah.

Unnamed Speaker (146:47)

And it takes a community to heal. A wounded inner child takes a community, and it's gonna. It's a journey that never ends.

Ms. Aisha (146:56)

Yeah. One other thing I wanted to add was the. That the also thing that I didn't realize was creating so much stress for me was working with somebody like that, the editing of working with my abuser, because I didn't want to create drama. I didn't want. I was so afraid of upsetting everyone else or whatever. There was. There was so many factors that kept me in this thing, you know? But that's a whole nother thing. Yeah. I kind of feel like I think I've said everything I want to talk about. Is there any final thoughts that you have on this? Because I feel like. Oh, I have one more thing. You go first. Do you want to go first?

Unnamed Speaker (147:44)

I really wanted to highlight what you said in the beginning. You said to not tell the story while you're in the story, to allow yourself time to heal and detach. And you also spoke about learning. And it's not the same story. You're not telling the same story twice. And so you're telling the story from a different vantage point at this time in your life. And I can't emphasize that enough. And switching as you. The way that you talked about it, now there are details that you added in that make it clear why you were vulnerable, why things got to the point of where they got. You know what I mean? And so it. I really think that that's very important to tell the story different times in your life and then see how the story changes.

Jesse (148:32)

Yeah.

Ms. Aisha (148:32)

I think that, to me, is an indicator of growth and healing. Because, honestly, when I look back, because I've told a lot of stories on podcasts and stuff, and I'm like, I'm not embarrassed by any of my stories, but if I ever told any of those stories exactly how I told any of them years ago, there's something wrong, probably. Unless it's, like, a very classic story. But if it's about dating or anything like that, there's probably. I could. I want to look at my life differently. I want to have learned more. I don't want to stagnate. I want to, like, really. This whole life is about under, like, knowing myself and also knowing that I'll never fully know myself because I'm always learning and growing. So who I am today, totally different than five years ago, definitely different than 10 years ago, and so on and so forth, you know, so. Yeah. And I. And I think that just for people in general, because it's. We're storytelling as an art. It's very similar to storytelling as that's what we do. Therapists, you know, I didn't realize I was coaching storytellers that, like, I was like, I kind of feel like I'm a therapist on some level, but with no training because they're telling me their story, and the way they're framing it says a lot. You know what I mean?

Unnamed Speaker (149:43)

Yes.

Ms. Aisha (149:45)

There's one thing I actually wanted to hit on in the very beginning was the chemistry thing. You know, that was when I said that this was the first guy I'd had chemistry with. And, of course, I actually learned on TikTok from hearing all these survivors talk about chemistry and that, you know what? You know, all the butterflies and stuff, I had no idea that that's, like, not a good thing. Every movie I'd ever watched was like, oh, my God. And it doesn't mean that there's not, like, something. But it's not like. It's not panic or butterflies or just, like, outsized excitement, because I didn't feel that at all with Anthony. I felt so calm. Right. But with this guy, I was like. I was so nervous. I was literally. I felt high from how nervous I felt around him. And I had no idea that that was my body being like, yes, yes, that's the.

Unnamed Speaker (150:40)

I wrote that down. The intensity versus intimacy and how we can confuse the two. And that intense reaction is that fear response. Like, this is too much, too fast. And you also mentioned that when he would be jealous and upset that he was drunk. He was drunk with emotion. He was emotionally intoxicated. But that intensity is an emotional intoxication of itself, itself. But we don't see it as that because it's like, ooh, you know what? I Mean like a roller coaster. But that's not. That's over stimulation, which is problematic. That's overstimulation. That's not intimacy. That's intensity.

Ms. Aisha (151:22)

And that. Which actually leads to the final thing I wanted to make sure I hit on was why I thought leaving was like, that was the thing. Those are just a couple examples I mentioned in the story about him being like, I got shot last night. You know, I sewed it up with dental floss and, you know, needle. And I'm like, this crazy stories, but why am I still talking to this person? I could not cut this man off. I could not go co contact. Not only can I not go no contact, I would tell myself, for my safety, I'm checking his Facebook page to see where he is at, what's he doing. But every time I do that, I've got his voice in my head, all that stuff. I. My nervous. I was addicted to this man. Right. And so those first three or four months after that relationship, I. My whole nervous system, I felt like I had been using, you know, heroin or something. And now I'm going through withdrawals. And it lasted for months.

Unnamed Speaker (152:20)

Yes.

Ms. Aisha (152:21)

And I didn't trust myself to not call him. I literally had to bring someone else into it, to being like, I know I'm gonna call him. I miss him even though. And my friend was like, I literally helped you get out of the state of New Mexico alive. Why are you still talking to him? And I'm like, I don't know.

Unnamed Speaker (152:35)

Right. It's so shameful. Like, we carry that shame, but that's biology. That's physiology. That's what happens with this intermittent reward, breadcrumb. Reward breadcrumb. You know, I'm in Las Vegas. I tell people all the time, dating someone like this is just like pulling the lever at the casino. The lights, the excitement, once again, the overstimulation, then they take it all away. And now you have hit the floor. You're flat. Bring me back. Give me that emotion back. That push, pull, hot coal. That is the addictive cycle. And so it works. If it's a man, it works. If it's the casino, it works. If it's drugs, it doesn't matter. This is our brain. This is not our personality.

Ms. Aisha (153:19)

Thank you for saying that. It did feel like. And it takes and it's hard to not go back to it. And I think it makes totally sense, total sense to me. Why, you know the statistic about women going back like, seven, you know, and.

Unnamed Speaker (153:34)

But let me stop you there. Going back this Is this is what I really want to make bring home. It takes a woman on average seven times to leave an abusive relationship. It takes an alcoholic on average seven times seven tries to get sober.

Ms. Aisha (153:54)

Oh, I never heard that.

Unnamed Speaker (153:56)

Seven times seven tries. Seven attempts at rehab. That number, they're the same. Because it's the same process. It's the same process.

Ms. Aisha (154:07)

Yeah. You and I both have talked about how the people don't take relationship addiction seriously. And, you know, and I've had, you know, like, I struggled with food on a level I literally thought it was. I was going to die from bulimia and stuff. It was like a 20 year bout. None of that made me feel like my life was in danger and as powerless and hopeless as one relationship did. Yeah, I. I was put on my ass more from the relationship addiction than any, like, the substance or, you know, like anything. I'm not saying that it's. That it's harder. I'm just saying for me, this one is like life threatening.

Unnamed Speaker (154:46)

Yes.

Ms. Aisha (154:47)

Level. And that's why I was like, oh, I can't just date lightly. I got to take this seriously.

Unnamed Speaker (154:52)

Yeah, absolutely.

Ms. Aisha (154:52)

I could die, you know, climbing all these mountains. All this crazy stuff I did. I love that I said that. In the end, I was like, I've done all this stuff, and how is it that the most dangerous thing I've ever done is let a man be in my bed, in my home, in my heart.

Unnamed Speaker (155:06)

Mm.

Ms. Aisha (155:07)

The irony of your, you know. So thank you for explaining that because that's a really important part I don't think people talk enough about. So. Yeah, I don't know. This was awesome, man. I don't even. I could go on and on, but I feel like. I feel like. I feel like, really full, you know, I feel like you helped me forgive myself even more because I actually feel like I'm in looking back, listening to, you know, 10, nine year ago, Melanie talking, I'm like. I wasn't like, oh, my God, you stupid bitch. I was like, oh, look at you thinking, you know, oh, you know, I get it. You know, it was really compassionate rather than judgy. So that's a good sign to me. But I feel like you, like, unlocked even more compassion for myself. So thank you.

Unnamed Speaker (155:52)

My pleasure. I'm glad. I really am.

Ms. Aisha (155:54)

Thanks for sharing your own stories too. So much.

Unnamed Speaker (155:57)

It helps. The more you talk about it, the more we allow each other to heal together.

Ms. Aisha (156:03)

Yeah. Which is why storytelling is so powerful. And that's just why I'm so glad I found this, you know, and anyway, thank you so much, Aisha. I really appreciate it.

Kevin Allison (156:16)

And that is that I'll tell you, it is such an honor to be able to feature two such brilliant and compassionate and uncensored minds sharing on the show that way. Two such extraordinary people. We're so grateful. You can find Melanie Hamlet on TikTok at Melhamlet with two T's. And you can find Ms. Aisha at My Therapist Life on TikTok and YouTube. So let us know what you think of this or any of these conversation stories we've been having. Or if you you've got a favorite Risk story from the past that you'd like to see the storyteller come back on to discuss all these years later. Leave a note on our website for this episode, or post on Reddit at r Risk Podcast. Or you can leave a comment on this episode on YouTube, because today's the day, folks take a risk.