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- [00:01]
A
Hello and welcome to the RMR Training Podcast. My name is Rich Ryan. This is your place for Hyrox. Conversations around training, nutrition, recovery, race day tactics, the whole thing. Conversations between elite 15 athletes, myself, Meg Jacoby and Ryan Kent. In this episode today, it's just Meg Jacoby and Ryan Kent talking about a really cool idea of how to know how, when to adjust your training to go from open to pro, what the expectations are around it and really how you should kind of navigate the whole process. We get asked this question quite a bit through the RMR community and just in general on social media. So it's a really good conversation for the athlete and also for you who are coaching athletes to help prepare them. So I'm not on this episode because we went through, we scheduled the whole thing, had the whole squad, we're ready to rock. And Meg Jacoby gives me a call. She's like, hey, where are you? I was like, I'm in the middle of my run. What do you mean? She's like, oh, well, it's. Now is the time that we scheduled the podcast. And I was like, oh. So right now I'm suffering from the unique combination of high volume endurance training and new parent brain. And the byproduct of that is an ineffective human. So that's what I am right now. So I apologize to not be on this episode. I really was looking forward to. It was like this whole thing was my idea and I was just like, okay, I can't do it. So they took care of it. They're always great when they get together, so I'm looking forward to bringing this to you. So let's just get to it. Meg Jacoby, Ryan Kent. Talking about what to expect, going from open to pro.
- [01:53]
B
What's going on, guys? It's your boy, Ryan Kent. And welcome to the RMR Training Podcast. Today I am joined by mj. Meg Jacoby, Rich. We don't know where Rich is.
- [02:09]
C
Well, I called him actually.
- [02:11]
B
Do you have the scoop?
- [02:12]
C
Rich? No. Showed us on accident because he has a little bit of dad brain. He is the one who scheduled the pod, but he, I think in his mind he was thinking 12:15 his time, but he did say 12:15 Eastern and all three of us are in different time zones presently. So Kent and I are like waiting. And so then I just was like, I. Let me, let me just call this guy and just make sure he's okay. And he's like, he's like, sup? And I'm like, you coming? He's like, what are you Talking about I'm three miles deep. I was like, all right, so normally that's Meg, who. Yeah, this is 1,000.
- [02:54]
B
We love Meg, but normally she's the one that up like the time zones because she's. Normally she's back and forth between the United States, Cyprus, Europe, all over the place, dude.
- [03:04]
C
Plus. Plus seven is hard. Okay. Yeah, plus seven. I'm, like, counting backwards. It's not easy.
- [03:12]
B
We can't do it at 2:15 Eastern, because that is going to be right in the middle of the Warsaw Major. Also that we need to be done before then, so.
- [03:24]
C
Yes, for sure.
- [03:25]
B
I figured before we get going on today's topic, we got a fun one, which we have discussed, I think, at some point in the past. But it's always good to revisit some of these conversations and. And see if our kind of mindset and thoughts around it have changed over time. So we'll get into that in just a minute. But any. Any update on your end? Meg, with. With what's been going on, do you want to share anything?
- [03:54]
C
Funny you asked that. Look at. I'm holding a Crayola marker. I'm sitting at Mila's desk to record this.
- [04:00]
B
I'm coloring currently.
- [04:01]
C
I'm drawing. I actually did draw a flower while I was waiting for you guys. I actually had the best physio appointment I've had in four months today. So, like, I'm. I'm. I'm, you know, knock on wood. I'm not trying to get too emotional about it. I try to keep my emotions very neutral, either good or bad. Just keep it right in the middle because then you're not super disappointed if it goes the wrong way. You're not getting overly excited because I've been there. I've had a lot of let down in the last, you know, two seasons of my career. So. But I feel like I'm turning a corner. And I get asked about this a lot. How do you adapt? How are you adapting your training? And how did you adapt your training? Here's what I need everybody to understand. When you have an injury, especially a bigger one, and especially if it's coming from overuse, you cannot probably heal from this. Well, if you don't change what you're doing, that might mean taking a few days off. That might mean maybe you don't have to take a lot of time off, but maybe most people don't want to stop training at all and let it calm down. And that's step number one. You need to let whatever you're Dealing with calm the down. You're not going to lose a lot of fitness in a couple days but you might, might most likely prevent yourself from digging a further grave if you chill out and handle right then and there and stop trying to push through everything. And every time I end up backing out of a race this is where this point is going to things calm down because I get to release that pressure of being fit for the race. And like a week after that I, I, I back off the training and I'm feeling drastically better. And so I just, it's a different situation for us obviously it's way harder. I mean and you know I, we have financials are tied to this, my whole livelihood is tied to this. So there's way more pressure to get to those races. But I get messages from people all the time like I'm trying to go to you know, New York City and it's like I know that it's a goal for you and I get it and I know it's disappointing but if you're trying to fight through an injury that is telling you it's not working, you need to listen to that. Please, please listen to that because you guys don't have that pressure on you. So just get better and then stop being in that vicious state cycle and that's what ends up happening. It just creates this cyclical you're okay one week, you're terrible one week you're okay a couple days you're terrible a couple days. And it's such a yo yo and that's so hard on the emotional side. It's a lot of anxiety and now we're questioning oursel all the time now you're in your own head constantly when if you just back off a little bit and you, you attack things head on then usually you can make some really beneficial adaptions to training that do keep your fitness but unless you allow that then usually you're not, nothing is getting better and that's what ends up stalling the long term process, you know, for a long time versus it just being a few weeks. And that's where like for me it was a really bad timing right before Phoenix was really bad. Did you know did some treatment trying to come back from the treatment and I was really struggling with keeping inflammation away. I could not keep the inflammation down. Every time I trained hard by the end of the day my knee is blown up and it was a vicious cycle of I couldn't even really work on it because I'm going to physio or pt and all we're doing is compression. All these different methods to try to get rid of the inflammation. I'm not even able to do the strength side yet because it was such a constant battle against that. And so that's where I knew, like, I'm not going to make it to this race because I can't keep steps one and two. I can't even get through steps one and two, which is calm it down. You know, it did calm down when I wasn't training so hard. And then when I started training, my increased a little bit of volume. Even though I was doing a lot of ergs and trying to run again, it went right back to the way it was. And I just knew I needed more time. And I know it's hard. I mean, trust me, patience right now, like, it's very hard to be that patient.
- [08:48]
B
Why do you think we struggle with that so much?
- [08:52]
C
It's this mentality and. And I love the Internet because there's so much value that comes from it. But there's also this mentality where I feel like it's created in people that if they're not working super hard all the time, they're not making progress or that recovery is being unproductive. The. When I speak to people and when I see. Because I've had so many conversations around these topics the last two years with countless individuals, I get hundreds of messages a week about injury stuff. I'm not even. That's in zero exaggeration.
- [09:25]
B
I don't. People will say that. But Mega really does.
- [09:28]
C
I really genuinely mean it.
- [09:29]
B
And I'm not.
- [09:30]
C
And I'm not like, tooting my own horn here. When I see the mindset is so focused on. But I have to do. And I have. But I have this. And everything is like, if you ju. If you just relax. They feel like they're not doing what they need to be doing. And a lot of that comes from the social media side and what we're seeing and what we're consuming, where we feel like everybody is working super hard all the time. And if you aren't, you're going to get left behind. But we all have to take a step back and remember, you are only seeing the highlight reel just so everyone understands. They're almost on a daily basis of my content. My stories are my everyday life. There's not a single recent reel of me training on my page. So good, so good, so good. Everything you want for summer is at Nordstrom Rack stores now and up to 60% off. Stock up and save on the brands you love, like Vince, Sam, Edelman, Frame and free people. Join the NordicLub to unlock exclusive discounts. Shop new arrivals first and more. Plus, buy online and pick up at your favorite rack store for free. Great brands, great prices. That's why you rack. This is all from months ago, some of it right. Remember that you're seeing the highlights and the glimpses. I did that big content session a full 24 hours four months ago, and now I'm sharing all the little bits and pieces, pieces from it every other day. That's what content is. It's not us going hard all of the time. I am going easy. Five, four, four minimum, four days a week, genuinely. So I think that's a big part of it, is that mental side of like, it's like that Goggins mentality. If I'm not going hard enough, I'm a little like, if I'm not training hard all the time, then I'm not going to make progress. But that's not how it works.
- [11:24]
B
Or you're gonna lose everything you've worked so hard for to get to gain.
- [11:30]
C
Yes. And the risk, the risk reward is not worth it because again, like I said, if you keep pushing so hard and you're not allowing your body to come down, you're not giving your CNS time to recover, you're not letting your tendons and ligaments, joints, all those things recover, you're gonna dig yourself into a hole and then that hole is gonna be much harder to get out of. And that's when the real mental struggle comes in. Is that the hard part, the easy part, is getting to train consistently and just showing up and getting the work done. That's actually the easiest part. The hard part is when it's going wrong and you have to figure out how to get out of that. And that's what I'm seeing when I get spoken to about these topics is the mental side of that for so many people is really, really bad. And so I'm just cautioning everybody about this because it's really hard. But like, again, I, I posted on my story last night, I'm walking down the stairs completely fine now. I was sidestepping the stairs. If I can't walk down the stairs, should I be lining up in a race? No, obviously not. I can't even do normal functions properly. So I think, I think that's something to consider. Like, sometimes taking this step back is actually what then makes you able to take those two steps forward, but it's allowing yourself to do that and Fighting that. You know, that demon in your head that's like talking you. You know, it's like the angel devil thing. It's like the devil's chirping in your ear. Oh, just go do this. It's fine. Just. Just work around it. Do all those things right. You know, and you got to ignore that.
- [13:12]
B
You know, what's funny is anytime. So just on the day to day, like, obviously we're not motivated to work out all of the time. It's an easy zone two day. I'm just kind of like, I don't really feel like going and running for 90 minutes or two hours, whatever. But it's like the moment I get injured and I can't go do something, I'm, like, willing to do whatever it takes to get myself out the door. It's just fun at work. Some days you don't really want to go do the work, but you do it anyway. But then when you don't have the ability to even go do it, you're willing. Do whatever it takes.
- [13:50]
C
Whatever it takes, guys. I was on the stair stairmaster for 90 minutes yesterday. You think in my life I would have ever done that before? Now I'm just so grateful to be able to do these move right. Like, I see people running or, like, training, and I'm like, just to go run two miles, I, like, can't wait for the day, you know, just two easy miles. So, yeah, don't let it become a problem that's greater than what it needed to be. I think that's the biggest learning lesson. And I was reading a study recently that Benny had sent me because there's so much confusion about more is better or training more and. Or, you know, how do you get through injuries? A lot of people want to fix a movement pattern or fix the way, oh, something is this or that. But the number one contributing factor to overuse injuries is load management. So if you're doing too much, that's the number one highest risk of injury. And I. And I have to. I'm. I'm. I'm. You know, this isn't me preaching to people without having been preached to myself. Trust me, I'm learning this as well. And I'm going through all of these things where I've had some stuff from a long time ago that is now being exacerbated. I've talked about that. By the training volume I do now. Um, that's the number one risk factor. So, like, if you are dealing with something, trying to train through it, but just switching the Method of training isn't going, it's still too much load, you know what I mean? It's still too much work. And so it all needs to be kind of really addressed from an hour's perspective, not just a modality, you know what I mean? Maybe it's just backing off to two hours a week and you're good and healthy for the long haul. And that's what's gonna give you the, the progress and consistency you need.
- [15:56]
B
And kind of an unfortunate potential outcome with endurance training is at some point you're likely gonna be, no matter who you are, you're gonna have some sort of niggle that's gonna stop you in your tracks and you're gonna have to adjust your training, you know, so even if you're healthy now, like, make sure you're doing all the right things to stay healthy, you know, find the right balance of training that allows you to stay consistent and still progress forward and hopefully not get injured. And if you do happen to come across an injury, like, you gotta nip that thing like right away. You can't let it, yeah, you can't let it linger. You know, it's, it's, you know, Bracken and Kirk over on the Running Public podcast, they talk about, you either gotta pay hour, pay later, 100 better, you better just pay now, pay now, get
- [16:57]
C
it over, pay it now. Exactly. Back off. Give yourself time to recover. You know, truly. And this is the other side of injury too, that we forget. Like when you're injured, your body is requiring more energy and more effort to combat that injury, to heal. So you keep digging yourself a hole in your training, fatiguing constantly in another way that's, that's still not allowing yourself to heal, even if it feels better. And I think that's a big, big misconception as well. So these are just things that I've learned that I've, I've also just not just through the learning and reading and science and actual data, it's also just my own self awareness. Like every time I've been able to back off a goal race I was pushing for, when maybe I wasn't 100 ready, I started to feel better right away, you know what I mean? So it's that it's also anecdotal data from my own experiences. But you know, the science also kind of backs it up. So it's, it's twofold and it makes me more confident in that. Like it gives me confidence to, okay, I can just chill out a little bit. I don't have to do double sessions every day while I'm trying to recover from an injury. Like this is, this is what my body actually needs. And you still maintain a lot of fitness. You're not going to lose. If you're doing stuff and you're getting stimulus, you're not going to lose fitness drastically.
- [18:26]
B
So and there's always going to be. We're at the point now in high rocks, it's so big. There's races almost every weekend. So if you were, you know, you have that fomo, right? Like ah, I've been working towards this race. I don't want to miss it even though I'm hurt. It's like dude, there's going to be another one in a month or six weeks and you can do it then when you're healthy, you know for sure. And I don't know about you, but anytime I've ever been injured and had to find ways to work around it, I've kind of discovered new methods of, of training and building fitness in a way that I probably never would have, you know, realized had I not gone through the injury. So there's always like a silver lining, always continent in your programming going forward even when you become healthy again. Like there's things that I still do to this day that you know, when I had an IT ban issue like eight years ago, you know, I still kind of keep some things.
- [19:36]
C
Yep. Well,
- [19:44]
B
seems like you're on the up the up and up.
- [19:47]
C
You know what? It feels good to start feeling good. That's another side of that coin. It's not fun to feel bad. You know, it's not fun to be waking up and going to sleep and in pain laying there in bed. So it feels good to feel good. But yeah, I mean I feel strong and I feel like I'll be, I, I'm feeling like I can get over this with, with rehab and that's, that's a positive note. So you know, keep your fingers crossed for your girl. But you had a very cool looking week via the grammar. So why don't you tell us, you and, you and your doubles partner Colin had a little training camp together.
- [20:32]
B
Yeah, we did. We've been talking about doing this for months I feel like but it, the schedule just hasn't quite lined up to where it works, where we could make this happen. He lives in Tennessee so he's not, I think it's about a four hour drive from where.
- [20:47]
C
Okay, I was gonna ask. I don't even know, don't even know if I knew that he lived There I knew he was south, but I didn't know where.
- [20:54]
B
Study and play come together on a Windows 11 PC. And for a limited time, college students get the best of both worlds. Get the unreal college deal. Everything you need to study and play with select Windows 11 PCs. Eligible students get a year of Microsoft 365 Premium and a year of Xbox game Pass ultimate with a custom color Xbox wireless controller. Learn more@windows.com studentoffer while supporting supplies last ends June 30th terms at aka Ms. College PC. We just got in the car on Sunday, drove here, stayed here through yesterday. Wednesday we did, Monday morning we did a track workout.
- [21:37]
C
Nice.
- [21:38]
B
Pretty gnarly. We did 10 by 600 progression run after that. So it was big, big volume. And then we came back in the afternoon and did some station. Oh, sorry. Actually we did a strength workout and then we came back the next day in the morning and did some station intensity. And then in the afternoon I took them on like this insane trail run that's here in upstate South Carolina. It's the steepest, most technical trail in the area. It gains like 1300ft in a little over a mile. The terrain is super Rudy and Rocky and I, I have a background in trail running, so I love this kind of shit. But Colin does not run a ton of trails, so him and Rich would be good buddies when it comes to, to running on the trails because Rich is very, let's just say, conservative when running on trails and Collins the same way. I think we came down slower than we actually went up the trail. So we took our sweet ass time coming down so no one got hurt.
- [22:46]
C
Yeah.
- [22:46]
B
And then we did a 10 mile easy run yesterday morning just to kind of flush it all out. And then, and then he hit the road and, and went back. But it's always fun to get together with, you know, not just a friend, but you know, someone who is on the same level as you and you guys get to work together and training because you know, I feel like I'm, and I know you would say the same thing. Like we get a lot out of ourselves when we train. Like we don't, we don't necessarily need anyone else to get the most out of us. But there I, I feel like there is a little bit extra that, that next level that you can push when you have someone trained with. I give like for example, the 600 meter repeats that we did to start the workout. They were probably about 5 seconds per 600 faster than what I kind of thought we might be doing going into the workout. So each rep was about five seconds quicker. Um, we did this, this really hard emom the next day. That was this. It was the part two of a three part workout and it was 20 minutes long and it was a row and wall ball combo. So the minute one it was 16 cow row. Minute two was 16 wall balls and then 17 cow row 17 wall balls. Then 18, 18, 19, 19, 20, 20, 20, 20 and then back down 19, 19, 18, 18, 17.
- [24:31]
C
That's nasty.
- [24:32]
B
Those like those middle portions where you're having to do the, the 18, the 19 and the 20. Dude. Yeah, like I was deep, I was deep in the pain cave for sure. Like the 20 cal rows obviously like the hardest part.
- [24:47]
C
Yeah.
- [24:47]
B
To get that done and to have any sort of recovery afterwards, you have to crank on that row or you can time it where you're almost. Then you go directly into the wall balls like right after. Yeah, But I always like to have at least a little bit of rest going in. So that one got really tough. And I promise you, had I been by myself, I would have been looking for every excuse in the book to just like negotiate the workout, switch it up or, or you know, make some kind of deal with myself. But the fact that Colin was there with me, it's like, oh, like quitting this is not even an option right now. Yeah, like we're kind of, we're both deep in it right now and we're going to find a way to get through it. Because if he can do it, I can do it. And if I can do it, she can do it. So.
- [25:37]
C
And that's the side I think it's not even just the, the difference between being alone and being with a partner. For me, it's the mental side. It's like it takes so much energy sometimes to get mentally up and ready for like a really hard session. Especially if you're not like really looking forward to it. Like some days we have those days where we're like, let's go baby, I can't wait to do this. And other days you're like, oh sure, God damn. And like, you know it's going to be a hard workout, you know, it's going to suck. You're pro, maybe you're a little bit more tired. And so it just takes so much the mental fatigue of always having to get yourself in it and ready for that session. When you have a one person with you, it's night and day how much different that that is because then they're fired up and you just feed off of each other's energy. And it's even when Benny comes to the track with me when I am running or we're training together, I am so excited to just have someone there. Like, sure, he's not even doing the whole thing with me. He'll hop in, I'll do mile repeats or something and he'll hop in every other 400 with me or he'll do 800 if I'm doing 2Ks or something like that. But it's so helpful, you know, to just have one person there even if we're not even doing everything the same. But just having someone is. It's the mental load for me.
- [27:01]
B
100. Yeah, that was kind of like my closing statements on like the whole weekend when they left. And my buddy Jake, who's in my small group was here kind of documenting the whole thing. And yeah, like, my closing statements on it all were just like, hey, if you can, like, if you typically train alone, that's fine, but if you could get with someone maybe once a week or once every two weeks, like, it's going to elevate you, like, you know, so take advantage of it. If you have anyone in your area or just go to a. Go to a gym and get in
- [27:35]
C
a class once, meet people, reach out. I. That's what I've been doing here. I've actually been training. Of course, I'm always with dudes, but I've been training with two guys here. They're actually both racing men's pro and war Shaw this weekend. But the one, the one guy runs like a 57 Men's Pro or runs, our run times are super similar. So he's like a person that I'll now ask to. To do track work with me because he can pace me. We run the same. So it's equally beneficial for him to train with me because I have guys at home like Jarrett Newby. He'll hop in some track sessions with me. He was helping me out in the fall, but he's running the paces I need to hit. So he would do stuff in between. Like he'd do burpees or lunges in between the runs while I was taking like the recovery time. Because for him that, that pace isn't, you know, what he needs. He's just being a good friend to me. So he was making it more challenging for himself. And then it was like, great, but it's nice when you don't have to do that. And so I've been training with these two guys and they, they are like the one session we did this was hilarious. I've gotten so good on the bike. And so it was a ski row bike session. 50 cows of each and then you 20 burpees and you keep going around, around and around. And I was kind of keeping up and then by the second half I was starting to really keep up and. Or maybe overtake. They thought I was doing 40 cows.
- [29:07]
B
You're cheating.
- [29:08]
C
They at the end, they were like, what were you doing? Were you doing 40 or 45? I was like, I was doing 50 and they were like, what the. You know, like they were.
- [29:17]
B
Yeah.
- [29:18]
C
So it was also. They were pumped because they were like, oh my God. Like she's a, you know, she's can hold her own. You know what I mean? In. In the engine style stuff. So it was really cool to like also have them kind of realize that was like fun for me, my ego. But also like having them and also being close. Ish. And. Or having them just a little bit ahead of me was super motivating for me to like see stay on the gas, especially when it starts to get like a suffer fest. Today I did a 60 minute bike watt test and I was alone and I got to about 25 minutes. This is how you guys know if you're truly doing threshold. I got to 25 minutes and every part of me wanted. Every part of me was like, why the did you decide to do this today? You don't have to finish. No one's here. This isn't, you know, like, you're like, that's. That's where. That's how bad it hurt. Because I really was pushing myself and that's where that mental strength has 100% because I fought so hard my own brain for the, for 20 minutes and I got to 45 minutes and I'm like, okay, you're good. You got this. It totally shifts back.
- [30:38]
B
Yeah.
- [30:39]
C
First 20, you're like, let's go, baby. Middle half, you're like, what the was I thinking? And then the last like 5, 10, 15 minutes, you find it again. Yeah, but those. If you have a partner for that type of work, it is. It's a lot nicer. It's a lot nicer.
- [30:57]
B
I think people don't think that, you know, we deal with those sort of mental battles and training, but it.
- [31:04]
C
Yeah, it's. Yes, we do. Yes.
- [31:08]
B
Don't give in. We don't give into that.
- [31:10]
C
Exactly. We don't give in. I literally finished it and I didn't want to almost the whole time. You know what I mean. So.
- [31:19]
B
So yeah, well we get into a little a little topic here on the back half of this yes. Episode.
- [31:26]
C
Hope everyone enjoyed that. Yeah, Chat I like a little.
- [31:31]
B
Yeah, we haven't had all good to talk much in the last couple weeks. So anyway, today, like I said, we have talked about this in the past, but let's, let's bring it up again and see what we have to say here.
- [31:49]
C
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- [32:19]
B
One of the questions we get a lot in the RMR training app is like when to move up from open to pro and when to, you know, go from doubles to open. So we'll spend a little bit of time on each one of these and kind of share our thoughts and opinions on it and hopefully give people some, some good insight on, you know, whether it's time for them to move up from open to pro or doubles to singles. Because, you know, typically if it is someone's first time racing, one of the things I tell people to do is go, go do, go do doubles first, go do doubles, get a feel for it and then you can move up to, to solo. You know, then obviously it's a whole nother ball game when moving from open to pro. So yeah, I figure where we could start is. Let's see why, I guess. Why, why do you think everyone wants to move up?
- [33:24]
C
Oh, it's just the, the, I mean, it's like the sub 60 thing, right? It's like it's like there, there's like this precedent that again, kind of like what I was saying before, this precedent that if you're not doing it at the hardest level, it's like not enough. Same with like running a 10k or a 5k is like not like hardcore enough. Everyone's running marathons now and it's like all of these things are hu accomplishments in and of themselves and they're all different races, entirely different races, even different training. You know, the training isn't even, especially from doubles to solo. The training can even look like, I mean, inherently similar because it's the same movements and you're still running but from like the nature of output or even, you know, duration they can be very, very different. So I, but I think it's that kind of like it's not. If it's not the top level, it's like there's some stigma that it's like not enough or something like that. I don't like that. So I'm not here for that at all.
- [34:35]
B
No, I, I think progression up should be based on like your readiness and skill set and long term growth.
- [34:47]
C
Not for sure.
- [34:47]
B
Not, not ego for sure.
- [34:50]
C
I think you nailed it. And I think even like, if you're even questioning it, if you're like, I don't know, should I, then you're not ready, then just stay where you are. Like, you should feel like I want to. It's time you should. You, you know that, you know what I mean? So I don't think there's, I think that can even be just an indication of like, if your instinct says to do it and you want to, then you should.
- [35:16]
B
Yeah. The other things I wrote down were pro sounds cooler. It definitely the, the heavier weights make it feel more legit to what you said. The social media makes it seem like everyone like should be racing pro. Yeah. Okay, so what would be when going from. And we'll touch on doubles and, and singles here in a sec. But when going from open to pro, what are some things, how to, how to know like when you're ready to bump up, what would be some signs that someone may be ready to, to bump up from Open to pro?
- [35:59]
C
I always say, I think if you are someone who is running sub 70 minutes and you, I think that's a good indication that you, you're physically ready for the challenge. You know what I mean? They're different races, so it's going to be slower. So it's probably if you're running 70 minutes in the open, you're not going to run 70 minutes in a pro right away. But I think that's kind of a good time range to say, okay, you can physically handle probably the next step up. If you're not, then I would say maximize your potential in the Open before making a big jump to something different. You know what I mean? And that I think everything is about adjusting your own expectations. For me, like I never did the Open, obviously, but I think for me and my clients, what I would say is like, hey, I think we can get you down to like, let's get you down to this time range first. And then once you get that locked in, you'll also have the confidence, more confidence to then move, move up. You Know what I mean? I think that's a big part of it, because I think the heavier weights, especially for women, I think they scared. I think women get scared of that a little bit more maybe than the men do. They're like, oh, my God, I don't know. The sleds, it's so much heavier. And I mean, for women, like, the sled pull, especially for petite, small women, that's a mi. A big jump from open sled pull weight to. To pro slide, pole weight, even the wall balls is very challenging for a lot of women. So I think if you get, you know, a certain time goal in the open, then it also instills confidence that you're ready to kind of make that jump.
- [37:48]
B
I was sitting here thinking, I'm like, would there be, like, station, like, if. If. If you're doing the sled push and under, you know, open sled push.
- [37:57]
C
It's tough.
- [37:57]
B
I know, I know.
- [37:59]
C
It's so tough.
- [38:00]
B
I would just say, you know, when open weights no longer challenge you that much. Yes, that might be a good sign. You're moving the sled pull, you know, just fine. The sled pull, moving it fine. The weight of the lunges, the weight of the wall balls, like, it's not too much, then you're probably ready to. To bump up to pro.
- [38:23]
C
Yeah.
- [38:25]
B
You know, I've talked about in the past, I've definitely been someone who has said, like, yeah, you need to be 70 minutes and open before you bump up to pro, but I've kind of changed my tune, I think, on that a little bit. Like, sure, if you. If you run 90 minutes in open and you want to go do a pro, like, who am I really to stand in for? Sure, way to go do that. But. But I will say, if you. If you are competitive in open and you're not just, like, surviving the race, that's also probably another good indicator, definitely, that you're ready to bump up.
- [38:56]
C
Agreed. And I totally agree with you. Like, it's to. It's. Everybody's goals with this are completely different. So I think it's often also just based on your goals. Like, what do you want to get out of it? Do you want to get out of the absolute maximum challenge regardless of how long it takes you, or do you want to maximize your time? You know, there's time goals and then there's experience. You know, I want to be. I just want to do the toughest level version goals and that those are different goals. So I think it's. It. That's a Very good point.
- [39:29]
B
What would be some signs that maybe you're not quite ready yet? I'll give you one.
- [39:36]
C
Okay, good.
- [39:40]
B
You, the stations take so much out of you that you just are leaking so much time on the runs. Like, you were having to put forth so much effort just to get the sleds done, and then you're kind of walk jogging the next run to recover. That's probably a good indicator that you're. You might not be ready yet to, to make that jump up or if, you know, the wall balls are taking you 10 plus minutes.
- [40:10]
C
Yeah.
- [40:10]
B
The lunges are breaking you down. You know, like, those are the things. Those are the signs. It's like, okay, we need to stay here for a little bit before we, before we bump up. Or if, like, technique and form is. Is not where it needs to be yet? Because once you bump up and wait, like, that's going to get exposed even more.
- [40:32]
C
So if you're struggling.
- [40:34]
B
Yeah. If you're struggling with technique and form on some of the stations, continue to work on that and develop that before bumping up to. To pro. And then another one would be just to. Just to say you did pro. I think that's. That's another thing that, like we talked about ego. Right. Like, you just want to do pro to say you did pro, but that's. To me, that's not a good enough reason to. To want to go and do that race.
- [41:03]
C
Yeah, I feel that. Yeah. I like, I like all of those. I like all of those. I don't think there's necessarily like a split time that I could give somebody, like, because again, it's like, who are we to say, right? What's like, good enough or not? But I feel like if you're able to consistently move through the Open the entire time, you don't have to stop at all. You know, I think then you're efficiently doing that enough where then maybe you could consider moving up. If you're struggling to get through the Open without taking a lot of breaks or pauses, then you're probably not ready yet.
- [41:44]
B
Yeah. Is there anything else on that, like, we covered?
- [41:51]
C
Not that I can think of. Yeah, not that I can think of.
- [41:54]
B
Well, let's kind of. Let's break down singles and doubles right here. I think this is. This is one. It's kind of a huge jump that people can definitely underestimate when going from doubles to singles. For example, when you're doing doubles, you have a partner with you to bail you out. If you are tired, they can step in. You can Recover so it can, it can hide weaknesses that you have that will get exposed. The individual race, like I said, you can recover while your partner works. You could even, you could even mess up the pacing like terribly and still kind of bounce back from that in doubles because you do get, you get the breaks. But if you mess up the pacing in singles, it's going to make for.
- [42:50]
C
Yeah, there's no, there's no like 12 minute rest on a rower when you're alone. You know
- [42:58]
B
what would be instead of like jumping blindly from, from doubles to singles, what would be like a good way to kind of progress to open or I'm sorry to, to singles? This is what everyone's talking about.
- [43:19]
C
Everything's on the table.
- [43:21]
B
This is what champions come to take. This is what everyone came to see. No do overs, no second chances, no more Mr. Nice Guy. This is winner take all. The NBA Finals continue on ABC and the ESPN applied. I wrote that. Just continue to build your engine because again like you're going to have to do the whole race yourself. You're not going to have anyone there with you to bail you out to make sure you have the engine to get from start to finish. That I think is a very important thing
- [44:12]
C
for sure.
- [44:13]
B
Improve your station efficiency because again you've got to do, you've got to do the full thousand meter ski, you've got to do the full 50 meter push, the full 50 meter pull. Like the, your, your ability to stay efficient on the stations is going to matter like
- [44:31]
C
for sure. So you're going to want to spend more time like in training doing longer reps, you know, of, of kind of everything. So like if I were to do a doubles I would be also doing more probably like faster 200 meter skis or rows etc, but in a solo race I'm doing way more like one case, you know what I mean? Or things like that. So just like building your capacity and doing, getting used to like not necessarily more volume in an overall training perspective but more volume at a time in your interval work or in your station work. So like you guys did emom stuff because you're doing doubles. So it's, it's different. Whereas like for a solo race I, if I were to do that workout I'd probably be doing E2, E3 mom, you know what I mean? Where it's like two and a half, three minutes at a time of that a lower intensity to make it more sustainable for a longer duration. So it's the intensity in which you train is probably going to change A little bit where you guys are in a doubles you need a little bit more high end and in a solo you need a little bit more of that real true threshold grind kind of stuff. But also like you, like he said, a big aerobic. That aerobic base is what's going to support you from beginning to end. So if you like that kind of work, then the solo is a great. I mean you need it for both, don't get me wrong, because it's the foundation for everything. But I think it matters a lot more and you get exposed a lot more if you don't have it in a solo. So that stuff kind of becomes like the bread and butter. For sure.
- [46:14]
B
Yeah. I think the pacing thing is like the number one.
- [46:17]
C
The number one.
- [46:18]
B
Like I had some guys in Houston that have typically done mixed doubles. They, with their. I think one guy does it with his sister, the other one does it with his spouse and they crush. They absolutely crush it. But they both ran their first individual pro race. It went from mixed doubles to their first individual pro race. And I told them before the race, I'm like, guys like, you gotta go out concert. You cannot go out in this race like you would a mixed doubles. Like, you've got to play it safe. You need to come into the stations feeling like you're ready to work something like a pro weighted sled push. Because if you hammer that first run, that ski that second run and then get into the push with pro weight, it's going to dig. You're. I mean, yeah, it's, it's going to hurt the rest of your race after that for sure.
- [47:18]
C
I mean, you take. That's the difference between open and pro. That's why they're two different races. Because you take your muscle, your taking a way bigger beating in the pro and it impacts everything. You know, every run, every station is all impacted. So by the time you get to lunges and wall balls, if you went out too hard, it's going to be very unpleasant. It's going to probably even before that it's going to be unpleasant, but it's definitely going to be unpleasant there.
- [47:46]
B
Yeah. And it's not like one, one is necessarily easier or harder than the other.
- [47:50]
C
Yeah, they're just different.
- [47:52]
B
Yeah.
- [47:52]
C
Like, I think the intensity can be. If you're, especially if you're a good runner, the intensity can be higher in an open. The intensity maybe, the speed, the paces maybe. But the pro is going to beat you up in a different way. So that, that still will beat you up, but at the Pro will beat you up in a different way. So it. It's just different. Yeah, they're just two different races, honestly.
- [48:15]
B
Yeah. Get. You know, if you are. It's kind of one of the last things I'll say about going from open to pro. Like, if that's something you are considering, don't bite all. First of all, how many stations actually? Because ski and row obviously stays the same, so there would be. And then burpees, obviously. So five.
- [48:36]
C
Well, burpees. But yeah, technically five are already changed.
- [48:41]
B
Yes. So five of the stations are going to be much heavier. Don't try to bite all five off at one time in training. Like if you're. If you are like, yeah, I wanna. I wanna start doing pro. Don't start doing pro weight in everything in training. Add maybe one thing or two for a couple weeks. Get used to that, and then implement another station into your training at pro weight. If you start implementing everything at pro weight all at once, it's gonna run you down so hard you're not gonna be able to recover after your sessions.
- [49:16]
C
Yeah. Or you're gonna have to be make a big adjustment to what you were doing. Like you won't be able to handle the same work.
- [49:24]
B
Yeah.
- [49:24]
C
Like the same workload. But yeah, I think that's a great tip. Actually, I never thought of that because I usually just back people's volume down. You know what I mean?
- [49:32]
B
But.
- [49:34]
C
But that's a great point. You know, way more muscle damage. You know, all of that type of stuff. Takes longer to recover from, that kind of stuff. And it depends on who you are too. Like, what your strengths and weakness as an athlete. This is the type of athlete you are, I think, is also a huge factor. So if you are someone who is a smaller athlete. As an example, I've got some girls, they're like five one, you know, they're tiny little peanuts. And it's not that they can't handle the pro weights, but they're just body weight is working against them. So it is going to be more challenging to. To kind of build that up without it damaging them so much and everything else. So just like the load and load, managing the load, like you said, maybe only increase the sled push and the wall balls for a little while, then work on the sled pull and the lunges. And then it's always progressing too, which can be really good for the mind, you know, if everything is starting to become constantly hard, it's not great for the mindset, you know, and that's where that confidence can kind of come in where it's like, okay, wow. Now like the sled push feels really good and you know, it's, it's building positively rather than kind of starting at square one and, and maybe it being really, really tough for a while.
- [50:57]
B
Yeah. And then on the double side it's, you know, you can get by with pretty low volume training I think for, for the most part. But if you are going to go from doubles to singles, you have to just keep working on your aerobic capacity. You're going to have to do more zone 2 type type runs or conditioning sessions. That durability and that fitness to go the, the whole distance without getting help from, from your partner.
- [51:28]
C
So yeah, for sure.
- [51:32]
B
I think that's pretty good.
- [51:34]
C
Yeah, that's, that's a, that's pretty, we
- [51:36]
B
get, we get that one a lot.
- [51:38]
C
We do get that one a lot. The, the ultimate thing is like there isn't a right or wrong time. It's just the, the number one thing is like what are you expecting to get out of it? So it's mostly going to come from your own expectations of yourself. Do you want to get really competitive in open age group? Do you want to just, again, like I said, go for the toughest challenge regardless of how long it takes? Do, do you have aspirations to try to podium in pro? Like what. Define a goal first and foremost and, and don't bite off the biggest goal. Like I, the amount of people and that I've had who have asked me to coach them and say I want to be just like you and they're starting at a 1:30. Well, I never started at a 130. So that's a big goal. Not to say it, you can't get there to this level. But I never started at the level you're at. So you have to bite this off in small chunks. Right. Start with he got a big end goal and that's great. You have to have micro goals in between. So let's start by getting you to, maybe we start in open and we get you to that 70, 75 range. Then we, you know, and we slowly bump you up or we just down slow, just have to cut down slowly. Time here, there ever, you know, whatever. Each person is going to handle that differently in their own mind. So I think the way you approach it and the way you view it and what your micro goals are are going to be a big indicator of what is going to be right for you now, even if you have a bigger end goal later. And I think that's we, we tend to as humans want to skip the process. And there's just. So we are all clear with my Crayola marker pointing. There are a lot of failures, quote unquote failures. Nothing is a failure. It's all a learning in my opinion. But there are a lot of disappointments, a lot of missing the goal that happens during that process and most people want to skip that. And they also didn't get to see. We are. You and I are very openly sharing our stories of these. A lot of people don't share that. You know what's been going on behind the scenes. All the highs, all the lows, what, what how much of a roller coaster it really is. Don't forget that. That's part of it. So don't get discouraged the first couple times if it didn't go the way you expected it to. That's part of the journey, you know. And that's also to. That's actually to be expected. The people hitting it out of the park, the one hit wonders, those are the outliers. They are the exception to the rule. That's not the norm. Right. You have to remember there's we. You're seeing a lot of high level elite people but you're not seeing what they've been doing the last 10 plus years. You're not seeing how long it took them to get here. You don't know what their background is. And you're forgetting that that one person you're following that you're really inspired by, which is wonderful. There's a million other people doing hirocks that are not at that level. That person is just exceptional. Right. And we all can't be exceptional at everything. Right. So that's a process. And it didn't happen for them overnight either even if it seems like it did because they kind of knocked it out of the park with this. They were clearly very exceptional in something that set them up well to be then exceptional in this. And we forget that as. As people. So it doesn't mean you can't get there with hard work in the right attitude and the right mindset and the right timeline. The right timeline that is might be a huge. That might be the biggest factor is timeline. How long are you willing to give yourself to make the progress towards the end goal?
- [55:44]
B
You don't wash your jersey during a win streak. You don't switch seats when your team's up big and you definitely don't shave during the playoffs. When things are working, you don't change them. That's why when you drink Jagermeister, you drink it ice cold. Anything else, well, that'd just be bad luck. Drink it cold or don't drink it at all. Jagermeister. Damn, that's cold. Drink responsibly. Jagermeister liqueur, 35% alcohol by volume imported by Master Jagermeister US White Plains, New York. It's, you know, the word, the word that comes to mind is, is exactly what we talked about at the beginning of this episode when talking about your injury is patience.
- [56:23]
C
Patience. Yeah.
- [56:25]
B
You know, let me, you know, if you, if you are a two hour open athlete and you want to get down to sub 90 minutes in Pro, what if I said, hey, that's going to take you, that's going to take us five years for that to happen. Would you still, would you want to embark on that journey? The issue is I think people want it right away or they, they, they're willing to work for maybe a couple, a couple months for something. But what if we said, hey, this is going to take five years, this is going to take 10 years. You run a 90 minute open, but you want to get sub 60 and pro. Okay, look, we're gonna need, we're gonna need five to 10 years. Do you, yeah. You have that kind of discipline?
- [57:07]
C
Yeah.
- [57:07]
B
Do that kind of work and if you do, you just might get there. Like you're gonna give yourself a shot. The thing is people, you know, they set that goal, they don't hit that goal and then they give up and then they never come back to it.
- [57:25]
C
I think this just fired me up. First of all, I'm ready to go work out again. I just got psychedelic. But I think I, I think it's so true. It's like when it doesn't people attribute hard work means results and it does long term. But just because you're working hard for three months does not guarantee you any result. That is just the baseline. That is just the bottom level expectation to get you to a goal. You is hard work. That's period what it takes for anything and everything. And everyone is working hard and that's, I think we forget that. So I get people all the time. I've been working so hard for like this training block that's six months and I'm like, and I've been working this hard for 16 years. Right. It's different and it's, it's compounding. So don't forget that, you know, just because you put in a good, you know, couple months or one year or six months, that's awesome. But that is the base that's the foundation of getting you to any goal. So it's. That's just what's expected, period.
- [58:38]
B
Yeah.
- [58:39]
C
And you have to be willing to do that for sometimes a very long time. And so it just brings up the question you asked, how long are you willing. How long are you willing to be patient for it? How long are you willing to stay committed, you know, towards your goal for? So it's always about your own expectations. And there is no. No timeline is the same. Nobody's timelines are going to be the same. So you can't look at your buddy or watch what you, you know that reel on Instagram and go, oh, my God. She went from a 90 to a 72 in like three months. You know, everybody's different. And that timeline's gonna look different for everybody, too. I know that can be frustrating, but I've learned you can't control the timeline on a lot of things. You show up, you give your best, you follow the plan, you execute, the results will come. The timeline of those results. There's only so much control you have on that.
- [59:39]
B
I mean, even on my level, like, I think about how long it took me to get down to a 55 minute Hyrox, but now there's like guys doing that on their second. Their second freaking hyrox race.
- [59:51]
C
Yeah.
- [59:51]
B
I'm like, damn, man, that took me freaking four years of just hustle and grinding and commitment and they're doing it on in their second race. Like, that ain't right. But it's just. Everyone's different, though.
- [60:04]
C
But it's also like, I always, I always attribute this. That's why I'm super proud of being the first woman sub 60 because it's the door opener. Like, it's. That's what's happening now. Know it's possible. They know it. They know what's possible. So now the door has been opened. People have figured out way better now. Like, I mean, look at our training now compared to what it was four years ago. Like, it's nothing. Like, I'm not doing anything the same.
- [60:31]
B
Right.
- [60:32]
C
So these are also. This is like how sports progress. And that's like, cool to be kind of a part of the, um. You know those people that kind of started to set the bar right, and, and push it. And now we've got a big influx of new athletes coming in that have got a lot more figured out already. And like we said, they see what's possible. And I think to be able to be part of the hope for other people. That's really cool. Like, I really embraced how cool a feeling it is to have people be like, oh, oh, my God, all these women there now and look like, look at this year alone, the amount of women that have gone sub 60. There were only like three or four or five of us coming into this season. I think five, maybe, maybe six. There's a bunch now, you know, in the last couple months. And that's really. That's really cool to see because that's what's going to keep progressing the sport forward and who knows what's possible? I think that's. But it's cool because you see women saying, oh, she did it. I can do it too, in like a really awesome, inspiring, hopeful way. And I think that that's. That's really neat. And we're gonna start seeing like, teenage. There was a girl in Brisbane, I think she was 17. She did like a 105 women's pro. 17. Like, that's the future, right? Like, what's she gonna do when she's 20, 21.
- [61:58]
B
Yeah.
- [61:59]
C
That's insanely cool, right? So anyway, shout out to that girl. I don't. I forgot your name, but I saw your real fat harassed it on you and I was really impressed, so I
- [62:08]
B
have to check that out.
- [62:09]
C
Love from Meg.
- [62:10]
B
But anyway, yeah, no, I mean, shoot. I already ran today, but I'm feeling like I need to go do something now. After we pop.
- [62:17]
C
I know.
- [62:17]
B
I'm ready.
- [62:18]
C
All right, Text me. We'll work out.
- [62:19]
B
You're doing.
- [62:19]
C
Maybe I'll do it too.
- [62:22]
B
I think that's good. I think we should wrap it up. The Warsaw major is going on. I think the ladies, our third.
- [62:29]
C
Yeah, they're. I can hear Benny's. Benny's watching.
- [62:32]
B
Let's go. Let's figure it out. Appreciate you guys joining us. We'll see you next week. Maybe a full squad.
- [62:40]
C
We'll see. Yeah.
- [62:41]
B
Hopefully talk to you guys soon.
- [62:47]
C
Your next chapter in healthcare starts at Carrington College's School of Nursing in Portland. Join us for a our open house on Tuesday, January 13th from 4 to 7pm you'll tour our campus, see live demos, meet instructors and learn about our associate degree in nursing program that prepares you to become a registered nurse. Take the first step toward your nursing career. Save your spot now at Carrington Edu Events. For information on program outcomes, visit carrington Edu Sci.