← Robin's Nest from American Humane
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- [00:02]
Dr. Robin Gansert
Welcome to Robin's Nest. So many of us have a deep connection with the animals around us and want to protect them. From the pets in our homes to endangered species in the wild. That's why I joined American Humane. As one of the oldest and most effective animal protection groups, we help billions of animals around the world. Join us as we explore how we can build a more humane world together. Hello and welcome to Robin's Nest. I'm Dr. Robin Gansert and this is the official podcast of American Humane and Global Humane, the nation's first and most experienced humane organization focused on the humane treatment of animals all over the world. From certifying zoos to being the first boots on the ground in crises and rescues, helping to ensure that animals are safe in the filming of movies on sets globally and that 1 billion animals in farms are treated humanely. And our military veteran and military dog programs. There's so much to talk about with American Humane's power to touch lives and keep animals safe. But today we're talking to Dr. John Paul Rodriguez on the importance of conservation. We want to hear what you think. After you've listened, please make sure to review the podcast on your podcast platform. I am so excited to introduce you to our guest today, Dr. John Paul Rodriguez. He currently chairs the IUCN Species Survival Commission, is professor at the center for Ecology at the Venezuelan Institute for Scientific Investigations, and continues to be active in Provita as the organization's president. Welcome to Robin's Nest.
- [01:47]
Dr. John Paul Rodriguez
Pleasure to be here with you, John Paul.
- [01:50]
Dr. Robin Gansert
You are a legend in the space of conservation and I'm so proud to know you. And I really got to know you through our mutual friend, Wolfgang Keesling. In fact, you were recently recognized last year as the inaugural recipient for the Wolfgang Keesley Prize, International Prize for Species Conservation. What did that prize mean to you?
- [02:13]
Dr. John Paul Rodriguez
All the work that we do is teamwork, is work of many people working together. And a lot of the motivation and the support for our group comes from being known. So getting our initiative out there so that people can recognize our achievements and our successes, but also having the resources to do so. And this prize allowed us to do both things. On the one hand, you know, the visibility of the project was much larger. We got lots of communication, lots of coverage. The Venezuelan organizations and government and others like it. When you know, you get recognized internationally because it means that the work that you do is visible and relevant globally. And then the resources, of course, go straight into the projects and help us support our team.
- [02:59]
Dr. Robin Gansert
You know, you talk about there's no I in team, and you certainly talk about that. This award with your many other awards and accolades are due to the fact that these people, your colleagues, are doing this great work and you just happen to be their voice. Really, John Paul, you're the voice for so many animals and so many species that are on the brink of survival, the brink of extinction. Really. I think it's like a war on the wild. What do you think about that concept?
- [03:28]
Dr. John Paul Rodriguez
Yeah, well, I think that, that something that I have learned from working with all these people is that conservation works. We know how to do conservation. I mean, there are lots of examples, hundreds of examples of species that have been on the brink of extinction and have been brought back through carefully planned, considered, designed, evidence based conservation interventions. So if you estimate how much money we spend on saving species and compare it to how much money is spent on destroying nature, we actually do a pretty good job because there's many orders of magnitude less. And so my crusade is to mobilize even more people so that a greater quantity and quality of efforts get out there so that we continue to reverse this trend and improve the status of more and more species.
- [04:18]
Dr. Robin Gansert
I love the word you use powerful words which I think inspire people. The word crusade, you're really on a crusade. We talk about a war on the wild. Those are powerful words that we're using when we talk about the extinction. Cris, you are serving as chair of the Species Survival Commission. Can you tell us what is the Species Survival Commission, what's the mission there and what are you doing as chair?
- [04:46]
Dr. John Paul Rodriguez
Sure. So the Species Soil Commission is a network of experts. We have about 10,000 scientists around the world volunteer, I must say, people who volunteer their time to the SSC in virtually every country in the world. And their job is to produce information that is useful for conserving species. It's information that goes into the IUCN Red List of threatened species on the one hand. So they are the brain trust behind the Red List. Information that is taken by the big conventions like the Convention of Biological Diversity, cites conventional migratory species. They all use the knowledge generated by the network to guide their decisions. When I ask a chair of the ssc, we have subgroups and each of them has a chair. When I ask them, why do you join the SoC? Me, why are you here? Why you spend so much time? And they say, well, you know, we know how to do a Red List assessment, we know how to do reassessments, we know the value of that, we'll continue doing it, but we want to be remembered for being the Ones that save the species. We don't want to be remembered for being the ones that document their demise. And I think that's a really key for me, it was a loud message that I heard at the beginning of my term and thought, you know, that's what we have to do. We have to refocus our energy. So it's not only on the science, but it's also on the action.
- [06:06]
Dr. Robin Gansert
That's powerful. You just said that. Basically this incredible group, these volunteers, these 10,000 people around the world, people don't even realize that I think when we're in our backyards thinking about saving the butterflies in our backyards and doing our home, hometown, home, backyard projects, that there are 10,000 scientists that are working to save species through the Species Survival Commission and that it's flipping it from documenting their demise to actually doing something to save them. Powerful.
- [06:41]
Dr. John Paul Rodriguez
Very important what you just said about your backyard.
- [06:44]
Dr. Robin Gansert
Yes, I love my backyard. Tell me about what you're doing in yours.
- [06:47]
Dr. John Paul Rodriguez
Well, but I think the really key one thing that we have to remember as conservationists is that, you know, you always hear this discussion, what proportion of Earth should we set aside for wild species? You know, 30%, 50%? Depends on who you ask. There are different schemes out there. The CBD, the Convention of Biological Diversity, has committed to 30 by 30. So 30 of all terrestrial, freshwater and marine ecosystems protected by 2030. But I always think we should be thinking of 100%. And 100% means to me, in your backyard, it might not be the wild, it might not be a remote area in the tropical forest, but it's certainly valuable to biodiversity, not only because you're providing habitat for wild species, but also because you're becoming closer to those wild species by having them in your backyard. And both are important contributions, one for the greater good and one for the personal good, making you a more informed and more educated, more sense sensitive person. So I think, you know, cities, hedges and agricultural areas, all of these are habitats, are wild places that we have to make sure that are there for all species.
- [07:50]
Dr. Robin Gansert
So I think about that too, and I'm so glad we're talking about our own. Because a lot of people say, I can't be a conservationist. I don't have the ability to go spend my months in Africa. I don't have the funds to be able to travel to Bolivia. I can't do it. I can't buy hectares and rewild a farm for Lears McCaw. So how can I do it? And you're right, it's Everyone on Earth can be a conservationist by simple and easy things. And I think that's a powerful message that you just shared. You empowered 8 billion people on Earth by just what you just said.
- [08:26]
Dr. John Paul Rodriguez
I hope so. That sounds great.
- [08:28]
Dr. Robin Gansert
It does, doesn't it? Well, gosh, even if it got 4 billion people, that would be more and more than we have today. Just doing something. I know my own backyard. We have dolphins. We have a beautiful estuary in Florida that is just. We get to get up every morning and see dolphins swimming. And I want them still to be there for grandchildren and great grandchildren. So I feel a personal obligation to do more in my own backyard. It's wonderful. But my children living in dc, their balcony can have beautiful bushes that can actually invite birds and pollinators and all as well.
- [09:02]
Dr. John Paul Rodriguez
Yeah, pollinators is a great thing. In the city where I live in Caracas in Venezuela, it's very common to see blue and yellow macaws flying in the sky and they have habituated to people feeding them. So in my balcony, when they pass by, you know, you raise a fruit and they come and land in the building and they have 12 macaws. You're a meter long each, just there eating out of your hand and then they go away. When they're finished, they just go and continue on to the rest. So it's those things are available, those opportunities out there and people, citizens value them, people like them and enjoyed that.
- [09:38]
Dr. Robin Gansert
Interaction with nature I always talk about, it's people, animals in the world we all share that interrelated web of life is so important and you're really on the cutting edge. I do love how you've turned it again. The SSC is really devoted to building them back from the brink. I want to talk a little bit with you because you're a voice for this war against extinction. Tell me, what is the sixth massed extinction? Explain to those visiting us today in Robin's Nest. Right. Don't you love our podcast is Robin's Nest. You're in the nest. Not quite. With those big macaws, I'm not sure if they would fit into our studio today.
- [10:15]
Dr. John Paul Rodriguez
They'll make a lot of noise.
- [10:16]
Dr. Robin Gansert
They would, they would. But tell me a little bit about what is the sixth mass extinction and why is it an urgent call for change?
- [10:25]
Dr. John Paul Rodriguez
Yeah, well, so the vast majority of species that live on Earth, but let me put it another way. A very small proportion of the oldest species that have lived on Earth live on Earth now. So about 1% of all species that have existed on the planet in millions of years. That means that the majority of species have gone extinct, and they've gone extinct over millions of years through natural processes. We call those background extinction rates. And those background extinction rates are not constant. There have been periods where more have happened and then periods where fewer have happened. And prior to the present, there were five of these mass extinction events recorded in the geological record and other so natural ways to document the past. And those all had causes. One very famous one, a big meteorite that fell in the Yucatan Peninsula and drove extinct many species. The current extinction crisis. So when you look at the background extinction rates, you come up with a number on average, so many species go extinct per century. If you look at the current extinction rates, they're anywhere between 10 and 10,000 times larger than these backbone extinction rates. Using that evidence, we say we're going through a six mass extinction event, which is comparable in size to this geological past. But we know that the cause is human activities. So in the past were natural processes like meteorites and other natural phenomena. But this time we know it's our activities mainly since the Industrial Revolution, mid-1700s, 1800s. And in those very few years, we've reached much faster rate of change of biodiversity than ever recorded in history, because those mass extinction events in the past happened over millions of years or at least hundreds of thousands of years. So it's a very different time scale and the impact is much bigger.
- [12:19]
Dr. Robin Gansert
So we think about that. Those were time periods like this, and now we're in a time period like this, 200 years. The peak is equally large and I'm sure a lot over the past 100 years. And at the same time, I think about the population growth in 50 years, where we're now 8 billion people on the planet, that has to tax natural resources, limit natural habitats, provide for human and animal conflict. All of these things are causing the death of species.
- [12:47]
Dr. John Paul Rodriguez
Although the population question is an interesting one, because not just the number of people, it's also the impact they have. So when you look at the impact, you have to look at the number of people at their affluence or their capacity to influence the environment and combine those two things together. So you might have parts of the world that are very populated, but also the impact. I mean, for example, take the case of India, which is a country as populated as a country can be, and yet there are tigers and elephants and rhinos that require vast amounts of land coexisting with people. The cost of that conflict is shared between humans and animals. It's not that when one human is in trouble, all the animals get killed. Like in other parts of the world, their balance is much more. So it's interesting to see that it's not just number of people, it's other things as well that we have to consider. So I'm less concerned with the population growth itself than with how people use that growing affluence and consuming power for nature or against. I think that's what the key really is.
- [14:00]
Dr. Robin Gansert
So when we think about this, this time, we think about the challenges of the sixth mass extinction. You sit in a very prominent role globally as the chair of the ssc. I'm sure you have an opportunity to speak to lots of policymakers around the world, the government officials who are, you know, subject to public pressure, scrutiny, challenges of where their funding sources come from. Good old fashioned politics. So what do you say when you meet a politician? We're here in D.C. today, so you might see one tonight. What would you say to a policymaker about the challenges of biodiversity and the sixth mass extinction? What would you say as the voice of the animals?
- [14:43]
Dr. John Paul Rodriguez
Well, I say two things. One of them is what I already mentioned a few minutes ago, is that it doesn't take much to reverse the decline of a species. I mean, like I mentioned, the resources spent destroying nature many orders of magnitude higher than the resources spent on saving nature. So just increasing that amount we spend on saving nature and how much we invest can make a huge difference. That's one thing. And the other thing I say is that nature bounces back. Nature has the capacity if we give her a chance. And there are many examples of Chernobyl and people walk out and then nature comes in and there are tons of examples like that all over the world. There's a big movement of restoring biodiversity in islands that were overrun by invasive species like rats and others. And once you are able to control those invasives, nature comes back. So I think that for me, that is key. We need to shift effort a little bit towards giving nature a chance and then she will come back.
- [15:40]
Dr. Robin Gansert
You know, we have a beautiful animal sanctuary in Florida and we've removed the invasive species and already we see nature bounding back.
- [15:49]
Dr. John Paul Rodriguez
Amazing.
- [15:49]
Dr. Robin Gansert
It's beautiful. In just a matter of weeks, we've seen new sprouts. It just exquisite.
- [15:55]
Dr. John Paul Rodriguez
And it's all invisible to some extent because it happens at night. It happens with little creatures moving around that you don't detect. And it's really remarkable.
- [16:06]
Dr. Robin Gansert
Okay. Do you have a favorite conservation project that touched your heart?
- [16:10]
Dr. John Paul Rodriguez
Well, I've been involved for many Years with a yellow shoulder. Parrot conservation in Venezuela Like I said before, my work is less about focusing on a particular theme, but rather supporting other things that go on around me. But that's a project that I have been involved in from the beginning. And one thing that you know, we have triple the population of parrots in 20 years. But today, this year, I got a chance to go visit during the breeding season a few months ago, and I just realized, I hadn't realized that before. We were standing there in the middle of maybe 20 or 30 nests distributed over a little valley, and there were so many parrots everywhere and they were very relaxed, they were getting very close to us. They were just like there, like we were. And they realized that we've been working in that same location for 30 years, 25 years, and they just got used to us. And they don't, they're not that friendly. Like they will jump on you, but you're surrounded, surrounded by hundreds of parrots just flying around, you know, stopping here, stopping here. We had for the first time a nest with seven fledglings, seven eggs that became seven fledglings and seven birds fledged. We never had so many birds. So to see how they were relaxed in our present, they didn't see us as adversaries, as enemies, as poachers, but they saw us as their allies. That's how I interpreted it, at least in my anthropocentric view. But anyway, it felt like that, it felt like they were looking at us as friends. And that really was absolutely fantastic. It had never really clicked in that.
- [17:45]
Dr. Robin Gansert
Way in my head, but then it did.
- [17:47]
Dr. John Paul Rodriguez
It did.
- [17:47]
Dr. Robin Gansert
And you saw 25, 30 years of work right in front of you, right.
- [17:50]
Dr. John Paul Rodriguez
In front of me, making a difference and realizing that, that we both learn, we learn how to, how to prevent poaching, we learn how to improve their breeding, and then they learn to coexist with us too.
- [18:01]
Dr. Robin Gansert
I always say conservation is not for the faint of heart. And you have to have the long term game in mind too.
- [18:08]
Dr. John Paul Rodriguez
Absolutely. Plan B, plan C, Plan D. Always.
- [18:11]
Dr. Robin Gansert
Yes.
- [18:11]
Dr. John Paul Rodriguez
Ready to go.
- [18:12]
Dr. Robin Gansert
That's beautiful. So, you know, we've worked together on a film before. We worked on the first Escape from Extinction, which was really talking about the importance of zoos and aquariums funding great conservation projects in the wild and helping to be an impact for good. And now you are featured in our second documentary film called Escape from Extinction 2. And there we take deep dive into rewilding projects around the globe. Tell us, what does rewilding mean to you?
- [18:47]
Dr. John Paul Rodriguez
Yeah, what rewilding means to me is to let nature be nature. So it's, you know, remove the pressures that we put. You know, there are many ways to do rewilding. Some of them are very hands on and you bring all the missing bits, the missing species, the predators, and put them in. Another approach is to just remove the pressures and let nature recover. Both of them work in different ways, though some are better in some ecosystems than others. But ultimately, what you're really facilitating is the natural processes to act in their own dimension, their own capacity. And that's really fascinating to me. And we've seen how the introduction, the famous cases here in the US with wolves and Yellowstone and other examples, once you bring in a missing link, the whole system shifts to a new state. And that to me is just marvelous to be able to see and to experience, to contribute to and to bring back some of these spaces that were completely transformed into a state that is more welcoming to all the components and all the species that coexist there.
- [19:52]
Dr. Robin Gansert
Yes, beautifully said as always. And I think about rewilding, I think it's not just about the keystone species, it's all those others that come back in.
- [20:03]
Dr. John Paul Rodriguez
Now, we've done a little bit of restoring of this dry forest in Margarita island where the parrots live. And, you know, we plant trees, we plant native trees, but that's not the best part. The best part is four or five years later when you start looking at the bases of the trees, all the trees that we didn't plant that are growing there, that came by themselves, came through with the wind, came, dispersed a seed from a bird or some cacti that we have no idea. They arrived, but they arrived as well. So just to see that we provide the matrix for all of these species to return, it's really spectacular.
- [20:37]
Dr. Robin Gansert
Clearly you devote your life to wild animals and wild creatures and saving entire species from extinction. But I have to ask you, do you have any personal pets in your life?
- [20:49]
Dr. John Paul Rodriguez
Yes, I have two dogs. Both dogs are rescued from the street, if you want. The first one, she's 14 now, she's kind of a golden retriever mix, but she really has more of a foxy face, long snout and pointy ears, very hairy, very furry. And then we have a second dog, which is a golden retriever that was from the street last year. We just got him, he was about 4 years old, probably probably abandoned in Venezuela because of the economic crisis a few years ago, people either left the country and abandoned their pets or couldn't afford to keep them and just took him to the street. And we think that he probably was one of those abandoned dogs. But the really amazing thing, both of them are very. I mean, you would have asked me, you know, 10 years ago, you're going to have two dogs that sleep in your bed that, you know, they shed hair all over the house and they scrat. Scratch your wooden floor. And I said, never, never, you know, and there I am. There I am in that stage now.
- [21:52]
Dr. Robin Gansert
You've got to. And they both have a lot of.
- [21:55]
Dr. John Paul Rodriguez
Hair and sheds a lot of hair. They shed hair everywhere. But they're fantastic. We have a great. They come on the bed and they go. They have their own beds, their beds all over the house for them. So they're perfectly happy.
- [22:07]
Dr. Robin Gansert
You are dog dad now. So welcome. Welcome to our world at Robin's Nest. We're dog and cat dads and moms here, that's for sure. That's wonderful. Well, kind of. As we wrap up today, you are inspiring the next generation of conservationists with your work. I know you mentioned you have a couple more years left as chair of the Species Survival Commission. You're looking to really put that on great footing for the next generation of leadership. What would you say to someone tuning in today, being part of Robin's Nest, about serving in the space of conservation?
- [22:44]
Dr. John Paul Rodriguez
Well, I would say that we all can make a difference. That, you know, it's overwhelming to see the world and see some of the big challenges and the big drivers of extinction are possibly beyond the reach of an individual's capacity to act. But it is the combined effort of all of us that really makes a difference. I really believe in constantly sharing your message. I think that the power of politics, of voting, of being active in that space, are very important, of making the politicians and the leaders of the world understand your concerns and your interests. Very important to demonstrate success. Find nobody likes to support, and I mean this in the best possible terms, but nobody supports losers. You want to support winners. And so for us to be conservationists and presenting a message that we're losing is just. Just as a killer. It's not a way to motivate people. We have to highlight many examples where we're winning and to keep doing that. So for me, you know, do not give up. Realize that as individuals, we have power and we can make a difference.
- [23:53]
Dr. Robin Gansert
I love that. So everyone can make a difference.
- [23:55]
Dr. John Paul Rodriguez
Everyone can make a difference.
- [23:56]
Dr. Robin Gansert
That's wonderful. We could start in our own backyard.
- [23:58]
Dr. John Paul Rodriguez
In your own backyard. With pollinators.
- [24:00]
Dr. Robin Gansert
With pollinators. I love it. Thank you so much. John Paul Rodriguez, for being in Robin's nest today.
- [24:06]
Dr. John Paul Rodriguez
Thank you, Robin. Always a pleasure.