Host (2:34)

Got it.

Expert (2:34)

So it's very. It's a passionate forum that you can browse on on Reddit. Now, there's a few things that you can tell if someone is going to change their mind or not. So, for example, when the original poster uses the word we instead of I when discussing an opinion which is obviously very separate from gender expression, but when they say things like, well, we believe, well, we must not, we should believe in this, rather than, well, I thought I believe my perception of things. So referring to them as we plus a larger group of people, again, separate from gender expression, they're less likely to change their minds because they almost feel responsible for that whole large group's opinion. They feel like the representative of that group.

Host (3:21)

Right.

Expert (3:21)

And if they waver and change their minds, what does that mean for the rest of the group?

Host (3:25)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Expert (3:26)

There's also stubborn language that you can detect. This is also in real life, if you are talking to someone and they use words like, well, anybody, Anyone, I'm certain, certainly, or there's nothing, don't even engage. They're not going to change their minds. On this forum, there's a lot of debates on politics, the economy, whether or not Epstein actually died in prison. I mean, pretty much anything that you can think of is on this Reddit forum, including debates on the show To Catch a Predator. Have you seen the show before?

Host (3:59)

Yeah, I feel like we talked about it briefly.

Expert (4:01)

Yes. So this show was around for a few years back in the early 2000s, and the fact that it's still relevant in pop culture is fascinating. But it was a show where a host, Chris Hansen, he would have all of these adult decoys. They're adults, but they pose as not adults on the Internet. They pose as 13 year olds. They start messaging strangers, they start messaging 50 year old men on the Internet. They say, hey, come meet me at this house. This safe house is then wired up for audio and video. Everything is recorded. They step into the house, they sit down in the kitchen, thinking that they're going to engage in illegal activities. But instead Chris Hansen pops out and is like, hi, I'd like to ask you a few questions.

Host (4:43)

That is crazy.

Expert (4:45)

Then when they walk out the front door, the police come in, they're waiting outside, they arrest the people. Yeah, I mean, wow. Dozens of threads have popped up over the years on Reddit, and it's a debate on whether that show is morally corrupt or not. So one would read, change my view to catch A Predator is a morally corrupt show. Many of these people's arguments include, let me be clear. I don't think that the people on the show should go unpunished. I think that they should. But also the show just teaches predators to be more cautious with their crimes, which would put actual victims at risks, not the decoys. Many activists have questioned whether or not the show creates a harmful narrative because most predators in real life are not strangers you meet on the Internet. They're going to be people that the children trust. They also argue that the show is almost baiting the predators to commit a crime. I mean, they're lying, misdirecting, coercing the predators into falling for this trap. Another small point of contention being that the family members of the predators, which obviously this would happen even if the predator is just charged in the court system. But now they get blasted on tv. Everybody knows what happened. The family members who likely did nothing wrong, they become these massive victims themselves. But other netizens argue change my view. To Catch a Predator is not morally wrong. There should be more shows like it's the main argument being the people on the show turn up to that house with the intention of r wording a child. All the show does is show them arrive, give an interview, and then being arrested. If those three events happened, why can't they be broadcasted? We can video record anyone on the public street. Why can't we do this with any other crime? Others with the same viewpoint argue the decoys used on the show were advertising themselves as minors on hookup chat rooms and classified ads. The men who were charged during the stings deserve exactly what they got. They know what they were going into. They also argued that public humiliation and the reputation that follows them after the show airs should be expected. It's also safer for communities because it's so easy to find out, oh my God, isn't that the guy from To Catch a Predator? They argue, I cannot feel sorry for somebody who is ready and willing to do God knows what with a child. I mean, society needs to know who these creeps are. I have no sympathy whatsoever. They point to netizen experiences online of knowing someone who ended up on the show. One comment reads, my friend dated someone who ended up just vanishing, disappearing. And then we eventually found out that he had been arrested for trying to sleep with an underage girl and having ropes and guns in his trunk. It wasn't until a few weeks later that we learned he was on the show. And it just kept unraveling. He had come to get drinks for one of my birthdays. And to be honest, he seemed completely normal. There was nothing that stood out to me as creepy or off. And my friend was a wreck afterwards though. She's a smart girl too and she didn't expect anything like that. I feel so bad for her. She was blindsided. But others point to other netizen stories that that read I was roommates with a person on the show for a bit. His name was Dave. Basically he went to California visiting a friend and the friend tells him, hey, I gotta make a detour to drop in on this girl that I've been chatting with online. He never mentions her age and also it's not like he could say no, Dave is already in the friend's car and the friend is driving. So immediately they get to the house, he regrets his decision when out comes Chris Hansen and they only interview the friend. Since Dave just got to California, he has no idea who this person is. He never messaged the decoy. But it really sucked though because the episodes are still available online. They don't blur his face and actually the whole episode that he's in has his face on the thumbnail.

Host (8:22)

What?

Expert (8:23)

Yeah.

Host (8:24)

Wow.

Expert (8:25)

There are debates about whether the show is technically entrapment. Now, side note, entrapment typically involves law enforcement coercing you to commit a crime. But I guess in this case, since NBC is working with law enforcement, it could count. That's a huge point of contention as well as what if one of these people are innocent in some way? They argue that public humiliation is handed out before a trial. And theoretically, if NBC makes more money by catching predators on camera, would they be incentivized to make one seem like a predator, even if they're not? Because they've invested time and resources and now they need an roi, a return on investment. So these seem to be the main points of contentions that show up. But aside from morality, there are other issues with the show. Like the fact that the interviews that are conducted on the show are not probably admissible in court because the predators are not read their rights. Debates aside, the show To Catch a Predator ends after three years. The show ends for multiple reasons. One being someone dies on camera. A prosecutor. Someone who goes after criminals like the predators. His name is Bill Conrad. He's the next one to be caught on To Catch a Predator. He's actually quite good at his job as a prosecutor, but Also he's messaging 13 year old boys or who he thinks are 13 year old boys on the side after work. Asking me, yes, asking Insane questions about body parts.

Host (9:48)

What?

Expert (9:48)

They try to lure him to a safe house to arrest him, but Bill the prosecutor ends up flaking on them. They Dateline the host police officers, SWAT teams decide that they're just going to ambush Bill inside of his house. They ambush him inside his house, which side? Note, a lot of people question why did they ambush him inside his house? Why didn't they wait until he was at work, which is a safer place to ambush him. But that's where the moral argument is. To Catch a Predator cannot film inside his workplace. They can film probably inside his house. Others felt like the local police department working with Dateline. They'd been in hot water for not being able to do their jobs for a while. So they come in guns ablazing, SWAT team and everything. Regardless, hindsight is 20 20. Whether it's the police presence, the SWAT team or the fact that the TV cameras are shoved in his face while the police are forcing entry into his home. He ends up self exiting.

Host (10:42)

Wow.

Expert (10:43)

Gunshot wound to the head. Which was all caught on camera. Obviously not aired, but caught on camera. According to the show's host, Chris Hansen, he quote had CSA videos on his computer. He tried to get them off the hard drives and he couldn't and the police were knocking on his door. He knew he would face 10 years in prison for each image. But other sources state that the police ran forensics. They found no illegal videos on his computer, but he was talking to whom he believed was a 13 year old boy, which was an adult. Bill's sister ultimately files a wrongful death suit against NBC for over $100 million. And they settle for an undisclosed amount. So with that, the show officially ends. But there's been this new wave of influencers. They're called predator hunters. I'm not kidding. That's what they call themselves. They're live streamers that basically do the same exact thing of the show to Catch a Predator, but in real life, in real time. They lure people online with the promise of a great illegal time with a minor. They show up to the designating meeting spot, typically a motel or a parking lot and the confrontation is live streamed.

Host (11:50)

That is crazy. Like that's also very, very dangerous.

Expert (11:55)

And so dangerous.

Host (11:57)

So so many ways for this to go wrong.

Expert (12:00)

Some netizens think it's bad because most jurisdictions might not take it seriously. Not that it's not serious, but there's so many legal implications on the influencer to the DA who is trying to take the case. After the influencer catches a predator, the evidence could easily be thrown out by the judge, considering how it's gathered. I mean, others argue, yeah, well, the justice system doesn't do much to predators anyway, so at least their faces are out there. Many netizens believe it to be peak vigilante justice, which is kind of what starts unraveling in Wadsworth, Ohio. A 50 year old man calls the police to report his car stolen. In fact, he says it was carjacked, that he was just driving in a parking lot one day when this person, this man comes up to him and is like, hey, I need a ride to the hospital, I'm not feeling well. And then all of a sudden, he just opens the driver's seat door, slams him out of it, gets into the driver's side and steals his car, jacks his car. The police ask him, what parking lot were you in? They run the security cameras. That doesn't make sense because your car was not jacked by a random stranger. Your car was jacked by somebody that was in the passenger seat. So explain that you are with the person that jacked your car. How do you say that you don't know who this person is if they're already in your car? He changes his whole story. He says, you know what, I was actually very embarrassed. I'm a 50 year old man and I work at the local church. I met this guy on Grindr. We were gonna get freaky in my car, but then he snaps out of nowhere and just forces me out of the car and steals my car. I felt very embarrassed to tell you guys the truth, but that is what happened. The police are able to find CCTV footage that likely places a 17 year old boy at the scene of the carjacking. This man is 50. This boy is 17. They bring him in. 17 year old Gavin. His name is Gavin Ramsey. He looks very nervous when he comes into the interrogation room. The officer questioning him later reports, I observed that one of Gavin's hands was bleeding and that he had marks on both of his hands. He clenched his fingers to make a fist. He was flexing his forearms and neck muscles. I could see his pulse on his neck. He seems nervous and agitated. He's sitting there with his mom and there's two police officers. One male officer that's sitting next to him and one female officer that's sitting across from him that's asking all the questions. And his mom is encouraging him to come clean about everything. What have I always told you kids? What happens in the dark comes out in the light. That's the way it works. If you mess up, you get caught, you make bad choices, you're gonna have to pay for it. So if there's something else, let's get it all out on the table so that we know what we're dealing with. The officer looks at him. Have you ever used an app called Grindr? No. How do you feel about gay people? I'm not gay. But they don't bother you? No, nobody bothers me. Later, Gavin asks his mom to leave the room so he can speak comfortably with the female detective alone. And he explains the carjacking. It. Okay, it was me. I'm gonna be honest about it. But the way that he explained it, that guy, that's not right. The Grindr thing? Yeah, I've been on Grindr and this guy, this guy was like the first time that it happened, and I told him I was 17 and everything and I wasn't planning on doing anything with him. It's not my style. I was just like even a 40 year old man trying to get with a 17 year old. I was just going to rob him. It's still messed up, but compared to what he's doing, I don't think it really is. He's saying that he went on Grindr, met a middle aged man, told him his real age, 17 years old. The middle aged man doesn't care. He still wants to meet up. So to teach him a lesson, he decides I'm going to meet up with him and rob the guy. I'm going to carjack him. He argues it's technically not the worst plan, because what kind of middle aged, 50 year old something man even willingly meets up with a 17 year old to do intimate things with to begin with? If anyone deserves to be robbed, it's going to be him, right? I mean, I guess I could kind of see the point, right? Gavin explains that he got into the passenger seat of the old man's car. They park. The old man asks if he wants to move the party to the back seat. They both open the car doors. The old man gets out the driver's side, but instead of getting out the passenger side, Gavin slams the door shut, locks the doors, leaving the old man locked out of his own car, jumps into the driver's seat and just starts driving around the parking lot. At first he just wanted to mess with him. So he would drive. The old man would run up to the driver's side window and then he'd be like, fuck you. And then keep driving some more. And then the old man would run up to the Driver's side window again and again. And eventually the old man runs off to call the cops. Gavin describes that he drove the car to a nearby parking lot and abandoned it. He just went home and blocked the guy on Grindr. That's it, really?

Host (16:38)

He wasn't stealing the car. He just. I want to teach him a lesson.

Expert (16:43)

The officer asks him. And you told him your age? Yeah, I told him I was 17. Are you gay? No, I'm not. That's not it. Like, I didn't have any plans to do anything sexual. It was just for him being that crappy of a person, trying and get with a child, basically. At what point did you tell him how old you were? Over text is when I told him, and that's why I decided I was going to do that. This text was in on the Grindr app? Yeah. Okay. And can you pull that up for us? No, that's deleted. And I think I blocked the guy, too. And I can't search him up or anything. I actually deleted the app, too, so all that information is gone with it. I just didn't want to say all of that in front of my mom. Why were you on the app to begin with? Just for that reason. To find guys that are that low of people? I guess so. To find people that want to get with kids. And it's kind of like karma, really. Like, if you're going to do that, then I'm going to rob you. And you told him you were 17, and what was his response to that? He was like, okay. He was still down to me. That's when I decided I was just going to rob him and leave. Did he touch you at all? No. Did he ask you for pictures of your penis? Yes. But you never sent pictures? No. The officer says, okay, well, I'm sure your mom's standing out there freaking out. Yeah, she probably thinks I'm confessing to murder. We've been in here for so long. And he laughs. Okay, well, how do you want to tell your mom? Do you want me to tell her? Do you want to tell her? I mean, she's gonna have to know. So when Gavin's mom comes back into the room, the police fill her on and everything, and she's just scolding her son, like, why are you even on an app like this? And Gavin's just shrugging. I don't know, Mom. I don't know why I do anything that I do. She turns to the police. I mean, that sounds like crazy vigilante, crazy justice to me. That's what that sounds like the officer is staring at Gavin and his mom, just analyzing them throughout this entire bizarre interaction of. I mean, I'm sure they typically don't get cases like this. And she explains, I'm sure you guys already know about all the going ons in the neighborhood about the elderly woman that was found murdered. You know, there are speculations that her corpse was used for necrophilic acts. You know, she was stuffed into the closet. Gavin's mom responds, oh my God, that was horrifying. They actually live five houses down from this 98 year old woman that was recently murdered. So now they're just chit chatting about local crime. And Gavin's mom is, oh my God, that was horrifying. Horrifying, horrifying.

Host (19:13)

The 98 year old was murdered and.

Expert (19:17)

And essayed. Her corpse was essayed and stuffed into her own closet five houses down from Gavin and his mom.

Host (19:25)

Wow.

Expert (19:26)

So now they're just chit chatting and the police ask, you know, you notice any strange vehicles or anything? No, but the day it all unfolded, we didn't even know what was going on. And we have two dogs. I have a very small one and she was in the kitchen with me and she just kept looking at the back door and growling and she never does that. I got like goosebumps. And so I just thought that's so unlike her. And I kept looking out and you know, the neighbor, the neighbor girl has like a, like they built a tree house on the ground. I kept thinking, God, what if somebody's in there? It just freaked me out because it's all wooden down there and it's all woods. But that was the only thing that was off. Yeah. Was that. Did you know the 98 year old woman at all? No, other than I would just see her out on her porch. I just, that actually just makes me want to cry. Like, how do you get to be 98 years old? Nobody lives to 98. It's so rare. And someone else thought that that was okay. Like how did. I don't know, like, why does your life end like that? And then I get all scared. I'm like, oh my God, I have to leave all my porch lights on. At night, Gavin is fidgeting with a tissue while his mom goes on and on about the 98 year old woman. And the crazy thing is like I stranger danger issues. Now, unfortunately for Gavin's mother, it's not stranger danger that she should be worried about because whoever did this to Margaret is a lot closer than she thinks. And he might have something to do with the 98 year old woman's murder, but also the local carjackings. We would like to thank today's sponsors who have made it possible for Rotten Mango to support the Joyful Heart foundation whose mission is to transform society's response to SA domestic violence and CA and support survivors healings to end this violence forever. This episode's partnerships have made it possible to support Rotten Mango's growing team and we'd also like to thank you guys for your continued support as we work on our mission to be worthy advocates. As always, full show notes are available@roottenminglepodcast.com A few big Disclaimers for today's Case this case is quite graphic compared to some of the more recent cases we've been covering. It involves graphic descriptions and mentions of SA towards some of the most vulnerable populations. So please watch this with your own discretion and if it's ever too much, take a break, go outside and I'll see you in the next one Necrophilia is rare, they say. We hope. It's hard to say exactly how rare necrophilia is because most people who have necrophilic tendencies do not come forward with them. But perhaps it's common enough that some Experts have created 10 different classifications of necrophiles. Class 1 necrophiles that do not seek corpses, but they're just aroused by the fantasy of having intimate relations with one. They might engage in consensual adult activities where one partner pretends to be dead. Class 2 they will only commit necrophilia because of an emotional attachment. For example, in 2013 a wife was found sleeping next to her husband's decaying corpse for a year after he passed because she just can't let go of him. Then the classifications progressively get more severe from there, with Class 9 being homicidal necrophiles, individuals who commit murder to obtain a corpse for sexual purposes. Then you have class 10 individuals who are only attracted to corpses and will continuously kill to obtain corpses and cannot perform sexually without a corpse. One self identifying necrophiliac goes onto Reddit to try and explain why they're a necrophiliac and they write, the reason why I'm interested in dead bodies is because of their passivity, you know, and maybe vulnerability. For some reason, the way they stay there alone makes me think that they're really lonely and I should take care of them and they can't reject me or mock me. It's like a blank canvas and you can project all your feelings onto them to which someone asked, why would you not be able to just use an intimate doll then? Because they don't have feelings, they can't reject you. If a real human is too much for you, then why not a doll with a corpse? The part of fascination comes from the concept of death itself. Someone had a life and now it's ended. And this physical shell is the only proof of that. And I want to use the physical shell. Another netizen asks, fresh corpse or old corpse? Fresh one. Those signs of death are appreciated. I also had fantasies about killing specifically to get the corpse, but I'm not proud of those fantasies. Another self proclaimed necrophiliac states, I think I'm a necrophiliac. Now, according to one small study, the most common occupations for necrophiles are hospital orderlies, morgue attendants, funeral home assistants, and cemetery employees. Now to be clear, that does not mean that most or even a big group of those workers are necrophiliacs. They're just people doing a job. But the small population of necrophiliacs, obviously they're going to gravitate towards these jobs. Still very uncommon. But in Wadsworth, Ohio, when a 17 year old boy, like a junior in high school, applies to work at the local funeral home around the same time that a 98 year old woman, Margaret Douglas, is found stuffed into her closet partially nude, with suspicions that necrophilic acts had taken place after her death, after her murder, you really have to wonder, are these connected? 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I mean, police have to explore the idea that she wandered somewhere in a confused state. And if so, is she in danger? There's this massive manhunt for 98 year old Margaret Douglas. That's what the Wadsworth police have to figure it out, and fast because people in the community are starting to get antsy. They went through and checked all the neighbors, backyards, the sheds, nothing. Detectives start going door to door and every single family on the street, neighbors of 98 year old Margaret, are now potential suspects. The first door swings open, it's a couple the Scots. We knew Margaret, but we weren't really close with her. She's definitely with it, but every time we spoke with her, she would tell us that she was a different age, but she was strong enough to take her own trash out and she would grab her mail and paper. Did you see any strange cars parked outside? No, we didn't. Sorry. The next neighbor, Eric. I mean, the last few days I did think it was strange. Her porch light would normally be on, but it's been off the past few days, which I thought was weird, but I didn't see anything else. The next neighbor. I did see something. Well, I'm not sure. Maybe it's nothing. What is it? Well, sometimes I saw the Spectrum trucks in the area, but that's it. Okay, well, thanks for your time. The next neighbor, a burly looking man, like a muscular dude, steps out into the porch. His arms are crossed, his energy is very hostile. The police feel like he's not going to be helpful, but they start asking him questions and he oddly gets a little too chatty. Very chatty. We've lived here for like 18 years and I'm telling you, recently, less people are buying the homes or the ones that are buying the homes are just converting the homes into these rentals. And look at that street down there, that one. That's a rental. That's a rental. I barely know my neighbors now. When we first moved in 18 years ago, I knew every single one of my neighbors. And now I don't know any single. And then the mailman, it was the same mailman for the past, like years, I think like 15 years. And then suddenly all of a sudden, it's a new mailman for the past two months. And now we got this guy, and I don't know who this guy is.

Host (31:20)

Wait, are these all like, police taped?

Expert (31:23)

Yes, they're all in the incident reports. They're not taped, but all in the reports. Every single neighbor? Yeah.

Host (31:29)

Okay.

Expert (31:30)

Every single one of them is documented. And the police are even saying, yeah, we thought this guy was not going to be helpful because his body language was closed off, arms are crossed, he steps out into the porch, and then he becomes, quote, very chatty. Very chatty. Too helpful. But ultimately nothing comes out of it. Right. Next neighbor, she doesn't really have too many friends. She doesn't really attend church or join any of the other communities. But I never saw her as confused. She was very sharp, even at her old age. 98. I don't think that she would have wandered anywhere unless she recently woke up and became confused. But I don't know if that happens like that. The next neighbor the police talk to ends up coming to them. A woman is waiting at the lobby of the police station. She can't even sit still. She seems very nervous. I walk my dog in that area. My mother, who is also around that age, very elderly, she lives nearby. So this whole case hits closer to home for me. And I just keep thinking about Margaret out at night, freezing in the cold. Anyway, I thought I would just drive around hoping to find her myself. But I saw these two guys sitting in the area, like, loitering. Do you remember what they looked like in their 50s? I don't really remember, but I know that one of them looked a lot younger than the other one. I remember that they said it was foul Play that Margaret is a nice person that didn't deserve that. And I was like, where are they getting this information? Look, I watch a lot of cop shows, and I'm kind of into missing persons cases and stuff. I thought they were concerning, they were suspicious. The police take her account and continue with the investigation. But a day after Margaret is reported missing, it's clear that she did not wander anywhere. Howard, her nephew, Margaret's nephew, is searching Margaret's entire house for the second time. And there's a few things that Margaret would never leave the house with. Even in a state of confusion, she always brings her favorite coat. In the colder months and all year round, she wears her favorite shoes, her favorite sneakers. So the first time they searched the house, Howard's wife Cindy, found Margaret's favorite coat. This is in April in Ohio, so it's still pretty cold outside. But maybe she was so confused that she didn't take the coat. Howard opens up that little closet again, and it's messier than usual. It looks like someone took all the clothes that were hanging and just pulled them down and then let them sit on the ground, let them fall to the floor. He starts rummaging around on the floor, and he's like, what is that? He grabs it. It's cold. It's a vacuum handle. It's very messy in there. He's digging, and he comes across Margaret's favorite shoe. Then he finds the other shoe. Her favorite shoes are in here, and both of them are still attached to Margaret. She is dead. She has been strangled, stuffed into this tiny closet with her head on the ground and the rest of her body upwards because it's a very small closet. Her underwear is completely torn, ripped off of her body. Her bra is pushed up, exposing her chest, and her nightgown is all the way open. So it's not even just murder. I mean, there seems to be a huge sexual element here. Whoever killed Margaret likely did it for sexual reasons. The oddest piece of this evidence that they gather once they find Margaret's body is the main clue. A jar of BlackBerry jam that's left in the living room. And it looks used, but not for intended purposes, not for toast. The BlackBerry jam will have been used to commit acts of necrophilia. Testing would reveal male DNA inside the BlackBerry jam bottle because it was used as lubricant. The friend that calls to alert Margaret's family that Margaret is missing. He had stopped by to check up on her and says that she didn't answer the door. This guy's name is David. David had grown up near Margaret, with Margaret and her late husband, and he actually morphed into a friend and a caretaker than just a fellow resident. Recently, he moved away. And now that Margaret is found murdered, he's not answering the police's phone calls. They can't get in contact with David, which is alarming because maybe he did something to her. So as authorities are going in and out of the house to look for any signs of foul play, they just keep seeing this guy lurking around, hands in his pockets, watching them. I'm sorry, can we help you? Well, I used to live in this neighborhood and I just wanted to see what was going on, I guess also I'm concerned. I used to know Margaret and you know, I would visit a lot and sometimes help her around the house. And I bet, I bet all my fingerprints are all over in that house. I'm sorry, what was your name again? David. This is the guy that they're looking for, just lingering around the crime scene. What? They bring him into the police station and after a pretty lengthy interrogation, as well as a DNA test, David is ruled out as a suspect. It appears that his care for Margaret was miscommunicated. The police realize, no, this, this guy is actually just a friend of Margaret's and he's trying to do his own little investigation, basically. So it's not David. Then what's the other motive? I mean, what motive does anybody have to kill a 98 year old woman? Perhaps a will. She doesn't have kids, but maybe she has relatives that would financially benefit from her death. Primarily a nephew. Howard, the one that found her body, and his wife Cindy are pretty close to her. Howard and Cindy. But when authorities look into it, nobody has power of attorney over Margaret. She doesn't have a will, financially speaking. Nobody was going to benefit from her death. Cindy, Margaret's niece, tells investigators Margaret bothered no one. That's why it's just so horrible. The detective is calmly watching her as she breaks down. I'm sorry, I'm just. It's emotional because she wouldn't even harm a flea. Then they talked to Howard, the nephew, and he talks about finding Margaret's body. And he said it didn't register at first. You know, the shoe he was looking for was attached to Margaret. He didn't even connect the dots. He says, I couldn't pick up the shoe. And I'm thinking, what's holding the shoe? So I took and I grabbed another piece of clothing, I threw it back. I, I've never seen this before in my Life. I touched it. It was cold. It felt clammy. It felt like Styrofoam to me. So I moved it. And then I moved another piece of clothing. And that's when I felt a part of her leg. And it felt like the same thing. Styrofoam. Cold, clammy. And I'm thinking, why does she have Styrofoam in here? What is this? Then it hit me. That's bas. When we left the house in a hurry. I've never seen. I mean, I'm sure you guys deal with it all the time, but I've never. I mean, to me it didn't look like flesh or skin. It's pretty obvious when you hear Howard and Cindy talk about Margaret that they would never hurt Margaret. Obviously, they are still ruled out by DNA. But there is an interesting clue left in the 911 call. When Howard reports Margaret missing, he calls 911. Hi. My aunt lives on Portage Street. A friend of ours stopped over there yesterday to check up on her and she was nowhere to be found. We didn't know if you guys found anybody that was perhaps wandering. No, we don't have any reports of anybody wandering. Well, we can't find her anywhere in the house. We went into the house, looked around the whole place. We couldn't find her. And we just don't know where she is. She's 98 years old and she lives there all by herself? Yes, she lives there all by herself. And what's her name? Margaret Douglas. And she never locks her doors. The same detectives are working another case. A string of carjackings in the area. That's why they're bringing in 17 year old Gavin to tell them what happened to the man whose car he jacked after meeting up on Grindr. Gavin is sitting there sandwiched between the male cop and his mom. And the female cop is asking him the questions. And the female detective is still again saying, you know, we've got a lot going on in the neighborhood lately and probably more than the general public is even aware of. More than one incident. Gavin's mom is nodding along, I'm sure. Wow. Yes. Unfortunately, we're trying to see if, you know, they're all related. Right? Right. Later, the officers ask them what they think should happen to Margaret's killer, since the case is all anyone is talking about in the area right now and they just live like five houses down. What do you think should happen to somebody like that? Gavin responds, that kills someone. Kills a 98 year old woman? I don't know. I think eye for an eye is the best way to go. My mom was saying she thinks two things. It could be like a grandson or nephew. Because, you know, my brother's friend, his dad works at some county, and he was saying in her will, they were all getting, like, money and stuff. So he was saying, like, one of the grandkids or nephews or, I don't know, even someone in the family, but they could have done that to get money or just some junkie in Wadsworth, which would not surprise me. The police will later ask Gavin's mom, when was the most recent time that your son got in trouble, Mom? Because Gavin's always in trouble with the law. Even at 16 years old, he had a felony. He has not had any freedom at all. I mean, he literally goes to work and home probably for the past last three months, because he makes bad choices, and we're just, you know, we don't want that for our kids. So he literally has no life. And he had snuck up before. I just recently moved his bedroom downstairs, close to mine with his younger brother so that I can keep an eye out on it. And, you know, it's terrible, but I did it. And it still. It's not enough. It's been a few months since he's had any freedom. Gavin admits that he does sneak out and rummage through cars here and there, but he never really takes anything of value. It just. He goes inside the car and looks, and the police ask, and you don't take anything? Not even change or anything? Maybe like, 50 cents, but I've. Other than that. Seriously, nothing.

Host (40:36)

So he said he breaks into people's car to look?

Expert (40:39)

Yes.

Host (40:40)

Not to steal money?

Expert (40:41)

No.

Host (40:41)

Well, that's even more scary.

Expert (40:43)

Gavin's mom is super upset. She's rolling her eyes, turning to Emmy. What would you do if someone did that to my car? You'd be upset. Upset you? It's so upsetting and scary. I understand, mom, but it really is their own fault for not locking their doors. What did he just say? There's a massive global company that most of us have likely never heard of. It's called Celebrite. They're a digital forensics company that primarily works with law enforcement from around the world. It basically takes all the data from a phone, like the things you thought you deleted, and it helps officers get an idea of what you're doing. It can even pull location information from apps to try and get a general idea of your movements, as well as pattern recognition. You can type in a keyword and It'll search the entire phone. Going through search history, messages, videos, folders, everything, even deleted data, which gives the officers a comprehensive look at all the times this phone has talked about insurance fraud. For example, they can typically even pull pin numbers and passwords or even the pattern locks. Like, you know how some phones do the pattern locks, they can pull those, which would be the perfect thing to use in Gavin's case. He told authorities that he told the 50 year old man on Grindr that he was underage. The 50 year old man still wanted to see him. That's why he carjacked him. But all those messages are deleted because he deleted the Grindr app. And he doesn't remember which one of his fake emails he used to create his profile, because he has a thousand, thousand different emails. For YouTube, for YouTube, he says for creating different YouTube accounts. It would greatly benefit Gavin if they can find all that because at least they can present this information to the judge. He's still likely going to get charged with carjacking. But still, now they need to get Gavin's mom's permission because he's underage. She's the parent, she's the one paying for the phone. And Gavin's mom tells authorities when she hands over the phone, you know, it is what it is. Whatever they find, I pray to God there's nothing too horrible in there. It will be worse than horrible the day that Margaret goes missing. There's increased police presence in the area. They just found Margaret's body like a day later, but nobody knows that she's been killed or anything to the public. There's just more police. That day. Gavin's mom texts him they're looking for someone. He responds, well, that's Wadsworth for you. Then he immediately Googles Wadsworth police reports Margaret Douglas. Margaret Douglas, dead. Margaret Douglas, Wadsworth, Ohio. Body found in Wadsworth, Ohio. Latest update on Wadsworth murder. Then deletes the search history.

Host (43:09)

Crazy.

Expert (43:11)

At the time of the search, again, it's not public information that she passed away or that she was murdered. She's 98. One would assume that she was not murdered.

Host (43:19)

Yeah.

Expert (43:20)

One quick search for passwords shows two interesting ones. The first being Gavin had set up a password to an account. And the password is, I like kids, so that's great. Then the next password of interest, Gavin had this locked folder on his phone filled with media files. So videos, pictures, live photos. It's an iPhone. And the folder name is dark and the password to that is murder. Inside the folder, a bunch of Media files. The first video is of Margaret asleep in her living room and they're recording from inside the house. It's not through the window, she's laying on the couch. She's clearly alive. She briefly moves her hand to scratch her face.

Host (44:04)

Did you see the.

Expert (44:05)

This one? There is. It's in the case files that I received from the police department. But the obviously the other ones are not okay. Then there's a live photo of Margaret lying down on her side. Her right eye is partially open, her mouth is open and there is blood on her tongue and lip lips. She is not moving. In the second long live photo on her neck there's a gloved hand holding onto her throat. She is dead. Then another live photo, this time of Margaret laying on her back. She has been posed in a sexual manner and the description reads in the picture, Margaret's nightgown is open and her bra is pushed up to her neck. The back of a clear plastic gloved left hand is seen pushing against the left side of her breast. Her mouth is open and shows fresh injuries to her face. So someone is touching her chest and posing her sexually. The next photo appears to focus on her right breast. Then the next video is about 16 second long and it shows Gavin using Margaret's deceased hand with purple BlackBerry jam on there to pleasure his private parts. So he's taking Margaret's hand, covering it in jelly and then using it on his private area. And near the end of the 16 second video he inserts a digit into Margaret's body parts. A finger. Then another photo, this time Margaret's position so that the focus of the photo is on her lower private parts. Then another. A plastic gloved hand is holding onto her bottom. After killing Margaret, Gavin stayed in her House from 2:09am to 4:10am to perform these necrophilic acts. He does not fully essay her corpse, but this would still be considered necrophilia in most of the files in the folder, Margaret is either nude or partially nude. And you can see the gloves that Gavin is wearing that night. There is no video of him actually killing Margaret because it's likely he had to use both hands to strangle her. Medical evidence indicates that it would have taken her several minutes to die. He killed someone that is 81 years older than him. A 98 year old woman. She made it through 98 years and it's the teenager down the street to what? Engage in necrophilic acts and document the whole thing. Why the police rush to arrest Gavin in his house and the officer Asks him, did you know I'd be coming to see you after we got your phone? I figured as soon as I heard the knock on the door. Honestly, if my boots were tied, I think I would have ran. Once they bring him into the same interrogation room, this time he's much more distraught. So his first interrogation was like a week before. And now he's brought back in because they go through his phone and it's all connected.

Host (46:47)

Wait, so the first time interviewing, they didn't know what he did? No, but this time they came for that. Now, where was the mother when? When the door was knocking? Like when they came for him.

Expert (46:59)

She was in the house. She knows it's pertaining to Margaret. She doesn't know what they found on his phone. And this interrogation, she's not in the room, she's in the lobby.

Host (47:09)

Okay, so she has some suspicion, but.

Expert (47:12)

I don't think she understood. It's going to be necrophilia. Abuse of a corpse.

Host (47:16)

Right, right, right.

Expert (47:17)

Maybe she is trying to justify like some sort of crazy thing in her head.

Host (47:22)

Yeah.

Expert (47:23)

And he's in the interrogation room. He can't even sit still. He's crying. He goes from sitting on the chair to rocking back and forth to full on laying on the ground in a fetal position. The female detective comes up and puts her hand on his back to soothe him. It's an interrogation technique. I'm upset. That's what Gavin says. I know telling me about it isn't going to give you much relief. It doesn't change the fact that I ruined my life. He's on his back on the ground, crying. We can't go back and change that, Gavin. I know. At this point, we just have to figure out what's going on with you. Okay. And you didn't take anything from Margaret's house, right? Like I said before, it doesn't make a difference either way. I mean, what other crime could I commit that would really matter at this point? Which? Side note, I do see people upset that the female detective is showing him so much quote, unquote, grace. But I think in this case she's just doing her job. She's getting a confession regardless of the evidence. The confession is more likely to get a just verdict from the jury. To hear someone, especially a minor, say what they did, how they did it, and why they did it, that's almost always going to help the victim's case. That's what the officer is trying to do here during the interrogation. The audio is quite difficult to hear and it's not Particularly insightful. The only time Gavin gets emotional is again, when he realizes what kind of trouble he's going to be in. He tells authorities that he's never been inside Margaret's house, except when he went to kill her. He thought he was going out that night to go through some unlocked cars, but instead he saw Margaret sleeping through her home window. He tries her back door. It was unlocked. He says if it was locked, he wouldn't have gone in. He walks in, records her sleeping, but as he was getting closer, he tripped on the chair and she woke up screaming. He claims he didn't know what to do, but he saw Margaret reach for her phone, so he strangled her. And she knows him. She knows that's the kid five houses down. He killed her. And then he proceeded to stay for the next few hours, committing acts of necrophilia. You see how none of that adds up? He says it's a crime of passion, but suddenly, an opportunity to engage in some of the most depraved acts on the planet. They ask, have you talked to Margaret before? I mean, I think we discussed this a couple of times, but just this one time when I was 13 or 14, I was going to shovel driveways and stuff, you know, when I was actually doing something good with my life. So when she died, was she on the couch or on the floor? The floor. Were you on top of her then, kind of like straddling her? Yeah. Did you use one hand or both? Both. And did you squeeze it or push her against the floor or. Both? Both. And you said you don't remember if she was bleeding at that point? The only reason I can think of her bleeding is when I put my hand over her mouth. Okay, so when you're holding your hand over her mouth, you might have pushed too hard and made her nose bleed? Yeah. Were you in her house for a little while before you woke her up? Like, I came up into the porch, and I didn't even know what I was gonna do. And I looked in the window and everything. I don't know. I felt like I was. I just felt like going into the house. It was, like the biggest adrenaline rush I could get, I guess. So then I tried the doorknob, and that just happened to be unlocked. He talks about after killing Margaret, he shoved Margaret's body into the closet all by himself, and, quote, he's stronger than he looks.

Host (50:35)

So earlier you said that he applied to work at a funeral home. A funeral home? Was he working there already? Or. He applied.

Expert (50:42)

He applied, but they did not hire Him.

Host (50:44)

When did he apply? Before this killing or after? Yes, before.

Expert (50:47)

Before.

Host (50:48)

Okay. That says a lot, right?

Expert (50:50)

A little while before.

Host (50:51)

Right. Okay.

Expert (50:52)

The police asked him, that night you were at Margaret's, have you drank or smoked anything, done any drugs that night? No, I was actually sober that night, which is another reason why I smoke and drink, because I can't handle myself when I'm sober. I can't, like, comprehend. I don't even know how the word goes. My thoughts when I'm sober are dark. When I'm high, they're like good thoughts. Have you ever thought about harming anyone before or taking someone's life before? Not, like, planning it out, but like, oh, I'm so mad I could kill someone right now. Like that kind of thing. But you never imagined yourself actually doing it? No, I could never envision myself. I mean, I've wondered what killing someone would feel like, but I've also wondered what jumping off a building would feel like. So it's not like anything was premeditated. Gavin explains that he has thoughts of self exiting, but he never could do it because it was too evil for his family. His mom would not be able to handle it. Gavin would even text his best friend Braden about these thoughts and feelings about life. The text would read, I've been doing some light research, and I'm not saying that I have this or whatever, but shit like this is an actual disorder, pretty much caused by wires in your brain being wired the wrong way, if that makes sense. Hopefully it's not like that, but I guess I don't really care if it is or not. I believe every person is made the way they are for a reason, whether they're as pure as God or as evil as the devil. It's who they're supposed to be. I think it's like that, so that there's a balance between good and bad in the world.

Host (52:16)

But what did he say? How is his brain wired? That he said.

Expert (52:20)

He never describes, but he thinks he's pure evil. Gavin tells authorities that he spends every day getting high on weed, stimulants, drinking a fifth of alcohol per day. That's about 17 shots of hard liquor per day. That's a fifth of alcohol, he says. His biggest obsession, though, you know, I will tell you the symptoms. You tell me what drugs this is. When this drug kicks in, it's a sense of euphoria. It almost feels like you have increased energy and strength. It feels like you could probably lift a car. If you get punched in the face, you might not even feel the pain. Until way later. You. You feel practically invincible. You feel like a rush. Do you know what drug that is?

Host (53:01)

Alcohol?

Expert (53:02)

Adrenaline. Gavin says he's addicted to adrenaline. What? He says the adrenaline is the only thing that makes me feel like I'm even alive. Did you go into the house initially just to steal something? Honestly, all I did was I just wanted the adrenaline rush. Oh, just going into the house? Yeah. I think that's why I broke into cars and stuff. It's that risk factor. All I've ever done is take risks because that's the only thing that makes me feel. So that's your drug adrenaline? Yeah. I don't know. Like, nothing feels wrong with me when I have adrenaline. It's like everything's all right. You feel alive, like there's meaning. Right. I don't know about meaning, but it feels different. Like, I don't know how to explain it.

Host (53:45)

He's telling the cops that.

Expert (53:47)

Yeah. Any bad stuff about you goes away. I guess. So your whole intention of going into the house was just the adrenaline of being in somebody's house? Yeah. I didn't want to rob the house. Okay. So it's just a sneaky thrill of, can I get into somebody's house and get out and get away with it? Yeah, but if the door was locked, I would have just walked away. The whole breaking into the house was the adrenaline part. I think I didn't even have a grip on reality whenever I did that. I didn't even know whose house it was at first, until. As for his motive, he claims his whole motive was adrenaline. And then Margaret woke up, and he felt panicked. He had to kill her. But then why did he commit the acts of necrophilia? He says it's not even like that.

Host (54:28)

Is this, like, the first time we ever heard somebody talk about adrenaline?

Expert (54:32)

Yes.

Host (54:33)

In this type of scenario?

Expert (54:35)

Yes. In this scenario? Yes. Typically, you will hear adrenaline in serial killers. It's. Yeah, they're.

Host (54:47)

They're kind of addicted to that, too.

Expert (54:48)

Yes. I mean, I think that a lot of people are addicted to adrenaline, and that's why you have people who are heavily invested in skydiving all the time or they're chasing certain thrills. It's just varying degrees of addiction. This. This seems more of, like, the serial killer addiction to the thrill aspect. I think it's tied to the fact that they're doing something that they shouldn't do, and they get off on that. But he's very angry when the acts of necrophilia are even brought up. He's angry about being accused of this whole crime committed for the purpose of sa, but he can't explain anything further. Like, he can't explain why it makes him so angry or anything else. And I don't know if this has anything to do with adrenaline, but it does later come out to the authorities that Gavin would chase his siblings around with knives when he was younger. He'd be like 10 years old chasing them around with a knife. Regardless, he keeps stating it's adrenaline. Adrenaline is why he committed the crime. And the officers are not convinced. They tell him, we know that you were wearing gloves, and we found one of the gloves that you were wearing, and there was purple stuff on it. They asked him, what was the purple stuff that was on it. Gavin looks very embarrassed. The officers already know what the purple stuff is. The officer pushes. I get it. There's this whole piece of this that you don't understand why you do. Okay, but the purple stuff, it's the whole sexual piece. No, the purple stuff. Was that jelly. I don't even know where it came into play. Did you maybe use it as some kind of lubricant for something? Is this the part that you're just embarrassed in your own mind? You know what I mean? None of this is. Okay. Gavin is saying that. Well, I'm saying we understand that it's an embarrassing part. We're not sure if it's. You don't understand or if it's just embarrassing. It's something that I don't understand, I guess. You didn't have any sex with her, did you? He shakes his head no. But you put the jelly on the glove and is that when you used her hand to rub your private parts? He covers his face. Yeah. Was it at the same time that you were taking some of those pictures? Yeah. Like. Like, what is this? That's when the shock set in. Yeah. It's like, what am I doing? There's a couple of videos of you peeking over the edge of the couch and videotaping her. When was all of that done? That was the same night. He puts his head in his hands. Why did I lie about anything? This is so stupid. Throughout the interrogation, he claims multiple times that he never took Margaret's red wallet that's missing. It is later found in his drawer, shoved next to a bottle of Hollister cologne that he stole from another Grinder car. It appears he took Margaret's wallet and those photos and videos of her as some sort of trophy. The police talk to Gavin's friends, and they talk to Maddie, this is a fake name. This is Gavin's on and off girlfriend. And she's sitting there confused, and she's explaining this whole situation where she was sitting with a girlfriend of hers. Let's call her Rachel. And Rachel is telling her what Gavin said about her. Rachel is like, hey, your boyfriend said this about you. And she's like, who even says that? Rachel is explaining, remember that night we went to the movies? Well, while we were at the movies, Gavin, I don't recall if you went to the restroom or you went to go grab popcorn, but Gavin was talking about how he wouldn't even care if someone came in and held a gun up to your head. He said, quote, if someone came in here and pointed a gun at Maddie's head right now, I wouldn't do anything. I would not do anything. I would just watch. Maddie and Rachel are like, what does that even mean? What is going on with this guy? I mean, Nobody's expecting a 17 year old to suddenly become a Navy SEAL. But also, you're not gonna do anything. What is. What. Why are you even telling someone this?

Host (58:34)

Yeah.

Expert (58:34)

The way Maddie describes it to the police is Gavin seemed like he was finally getting better with his life, but for whatever reason, reason unclear to everyone else, he got swept up in the wrong path. That's how she describes it. She would go at 3am to check his Snapchat location on the phone because you can share it with friends. He'd be out breaking curfew. He'd be in the middle of nowhere at 3am Gavin and Maddie had known each other since they were in the first grade, but recently started dating. And she just tells police there's just so much more to it. She says, quote, we're all in this group chat, and Gavin said once that he could kill someone and not feel anything, but he wasn't gonna kill someone because he knew that it was wrong. Maddie says that she was speechless, but she thought maybe it's a joke. She texts him back, you would never do that. He says, yeah, I know. Which, okay, maybe he's just trying to be edgy. That's what she thought. But then Gavin's coworker, Hillary, another fake name from the pizza shop. She says Gavin would always tell her at work that he's never actually happy, that he just is faking it, when in fact, he feels empty on the inside. He would tell her about his plans to catfish people on the Internet. He wanted to catfish someone for the sole purpose of meeting up with them so that he could hurt them. The Police ask, was he ever abusive or violent towards the animals? Not that I know of. But when news broke of that 98 year old woman being found dead, it just had a sneaking suspicion. Why? Hillary shows the investigators a Snapchat message between them where she asks Gavin if he's okay. She says, quote, what's the matter? He responds, n u N, I guess nothing. It's cool. I don't know, I just get some really fucked up thoughts like about murdering people and it doesn't bother me. And I watched one of those self exit videos on YouTube and I laughed and I'm pretty sure I could kill someone in cold blood and not feel guilty or sad or anything about it. I honestly have two emotions and they're angry or laughing and I'm never really happy. I'm just faking it. I don't even get sad anymore. I literally don't care about anything whatsoever. Other small things that the police learn about Gavin, it's pretty clear that he has a strange relationship with his parents. One friend claims that Gavin and his dad got into a really bad fight once and it compelled Gavin to choke himself out. I don't know if he was trying to do it in spite of his dad, to scare him, to make him feel guilty, or if he was in distress or both, but it's alarming. A few of the friends do remember Gavin posting a Snapchat, taking a picture out of his bedroom window and showing all the cop cars out on the neighborhood streets. And some of them even messaged Gavin saying, whoa, that's crazy. Speaking of Snapchat, one of his friends says, quote, he always seemed happy at school, but then on Snapchat he would just seem so mad. During the search on Gavin's home, police come across a 70 page notebook like the ones that they make you buy at the beginning of every school year. It's bright purple. They find it under his bed. The first few pages are research papers into two notorious serial killers, Donald Gaskins and Ted Bundy. The more notable being Ted Bundy, considering he too engaged in heavy acts of necrophilia. But then when you flip the pages, these serial killer biographies slowly morph into horror movie skit ideas, none of which are good. One page reads, skit ideas, Horror at the Factory. Introduction. Braden, his best friend, is playing at the park and I am a murderer and I'm plotting on how to kill him. Then he notices me watching him from a distance. So he stops playing, looks at me, then I start walking towards him. So he runs into the woods. The end Fin finale. Critical acclaim. An Oscar. I don't know what he's thinking. The next page reads skit ideas. It looks like a page from a brainstorming session. Serial killer taking person into the woods. Interactive horror story hunted for $1,000 horror at the factory Scene setting Different outcomes and scenarios. A series I will say there does seem to be some sort of fascination into his best friend Braden. He writes three potential minisode series, which I do not believe will be picked up by any network anytime soon. Episode one is written, Braden comes back from college, Travel, running away, et cetera. We decide to go on a hike and catch up and bond at the old spot we went to as kids, Silver Creek. As we're walking, we get into a heated conversation about Braden leaving and going away, which leaves me at home with a shitty home life and abusive drunk dad. And as we're yelling at each other, I lose my footing and realistically fall down the cliff. Episode two opens back up on the cliffhanger. Literally, it reads, Brayden frantically rushes down the cliff to come help me and show me that he will always be my big brother and that he will always be there for me and never leave me. Once he reaches the bottom, we have a heart to heart talk and then he starts to help me up. In episode three, as they're making their way back up the hill, Brayden falls and gets more serious injuries than Gavin. So they're both injured and both their phones are broken. That's it. It's not the most riveting stuff, but the journal becomes more pertinent to investigators when those skit ideas start morphing into a diary. Gavin is journaling. This has been shortened, but his first journal entry reads, this writing thing is new to me, so I'm going to give this my best shot. I hate being at home. I hate being downstairs with my family because a lot of the time I feel like I don't really belong here. If I'm at home, I prefer to just be alone in my room. I feel like I don't belong anywhere. I can contain my thoughts and urges most days, but sometimes I just want to fucking go off on someone and beat them until they're not breathing anymore. It's not even for attention or anything. I honestly want to take someone's life. I want to know what that would feel like, what it would feel like to stand over some dead body. I don't feel empathy or sympathy for anybody. Like I just don't give a shit and I want to know why. Like, I wouldn't feel bad if I killed someone but I don't want to fucking sit in prison. Like that would suck. I really need to stop drinking but it drowns out the pain so I probably won't stop. His next journal entry reads, all right, so I'm back and man do I have some shit to say today. I'm listening to I'm Sorry by Joyner Lucas, which side note is a really painful song about self exit and how it affects family members after a loved one is gone. Viewer discretion is advice. It was very emotionally rough but insightful, but just be careful going into it. Very beautifully done though. Anyway, Gavin writes, it really makes me get in my field. After I listened to that I went and hit the punching bag and really needed to let it out. A lot of built up rage and anger. I fucked up my hands but I knocked the bag completely off the chain it was hanging from and it felt good to have that kind of power. I think if counseling doesn't help me, I'm honestly just gonna kill someone. Like I'm not just saying that. I'll probably take a girl out into the woods r word her and kill her. I wouldn't even feel bad about it, but I know it's wrong. I think I'm a depressed sociopath, to be honest. I don't fucking care about 99% of things. The only things I truly care about are my friends and my close family. While Gavin is confessing to murder both of his parents, mom and dad are sitting outside in the lobby of the police station. The authorities inform them that they have some news and updates to share, but they need to conduct another search on the house and it would be best if nobody was home. Gavin's mom calls her other kids hey honey, listen, this is going to be a weird request, but I need you to take your brothers and take them out of the house right now. Why? I'll explain later. Maybe go to Uncle David's and just hang there and we will call you when we can come home. Is everything all right, Mom? No, everything is not all right, but don't tell your brothers right now after they get out of the house. The two parents are waiting for the police to finally tell them what's going on, and the female officer tells him the mobile phone contained images of Margaret before and after her death, as well as videos of your son with her. Both of them have a physical reaction. It's not an extreme reaction, at least not visibly, but they seem shaken. Gavin's mom is the first to talk, having sex with her Engaging in sexual acts with her. Yes. They appear even more shocked. The mom asks again, was she alive when he was doing oh my God. Because the officer shakes her head. Now both of them cover their mouths with their hands. And honestly, Gavin's dad seems to be hit the hardest. He's grabbing the wall. He looks lost. He doesn't even know what to do with himself. Where his. His mom keeps going. This isn't happening. This isn't real. I want you to know that. I spoke to the director of the juvenile detention facility. I explained the situation. I explained that Gavin is highly emotionally distraught. I asked him to put him on self exit watch. Okay? Okay. I asked him to keep him under 247 observation. I know this is an emotionally devastating situation. Gavin's mom is nodding. It's unclear if she's just going into mom mode, trying to pay attention and think for her son or if she's in shock. I don't know. But the dad is very distraught. He's sitting down, he's shaking. And a male cop says, it's a horrible set of circumstances. You deserve to know that he will be tried as an adult. The dad starts crying eventually. Oh, my God. Oh my God. Oh my God. 98 years old. She was just living out her days. And here's my son. My son did this. You have all you motherfucking. All these people out there and it's my son. Eventually, the interaction ends with the mom asking the officer, does Gavin understand that he's going to prison probably for the rest of his life. You know those cute PowerPoint videos that your phone makes with the old photos that you come across? Every few months, Months, I get the cutest little videos of my nieces when they were like 1 years old and they started crying and I started crying. It was. It's beautiful. I love going through those. And I'm sure all parents can relate or like the. They do the pet friends, you know, they always have those. And I realized that I don't go back enough and look at them enough. And that's why I realized that this is the perfect gift to get anybody in your life, especially parents. My sister takes hundreds of photos of my little nieces and I don't know if they ever go back and look at them. And then I got them Aura Frames. They now appreciate all of those moments just randomly throughout the day, every day. Aura Frames is the world's smartest digital picture frame. It's an easy and beautiful solution to instantly frame photos and videos from your phone. It's incredibly easy to set up, all you need is the Aura Frame and free app wifi and you automatically get free unlimited storage. Meaning you can upload photos from your phone to your Aura frame, but you can also have your family or friends or whoever you invite to also share photos and videos that will instantly appear on your Aura frame wherever they are in the world. I think this is so beautiful. For long distance friendships, relationships or if your kid is going to college, this is kind of perfect. No memory card required. Aura Frames is a fantastic option for the holidays as well because you can personalize and preload an Aura frame and the person receiving it has the option to make it their own, keep it how it is, or invite you or your other loved ones to continue updating it. Plus, once you buy the Aura Frame, there is no membership required to use it, no strings attached. We actually have an Aura Frame upstairs where it's connected with my sister so when she takes pictures of the girls it'll come into our Aura frame as well so we can see it if we're not always with them. And it's just. It just lights up your day. Save on the perfect gift by visiting aura frames.com to get $35 off Aura's best selling carver Matte frames by using Promo Code Rotten at checkout. That's a U R A frames.com promo code rotten. This deal is exclusive to listeners, so get yours now in time for the holidays. Terms and conditions apply. My sister in law Tiffany's wedding is coming up soon and which we're all so excited and honestly so grateful that Zola, the sponsor of this episode, was able to help so much. A wedding is undeniably one of the most fun, inspiring, loving and definitely emotional events in someone's life. Especially in my life. The ceremony, the after party, and depending on your culture, it could be days of unforgettable memories. But where do you even start? It's so. It's so daunting. My husband and I were engaged for a while before we had our official wedding and honestly a big part of it was we just put off the planning. It's so daunting and I don't want Tiffany to feel any of that as she plans for her big day. So luckily she has been using Zola to put Tiffany on all of her wedding needs. With Zolla, you can plan your entire wedding in one convenient place from the day you get engaged and search for the venue to the day you send out your save the dates, make your registry, and even taste your cake. Zola has literally everything you need to make the whole process super easy and actually enjoyable. There's even a five star app that helps you plan on the go or on your couch. Zolla is also a female led e commerce company that proudly serves all genders and orientations on a personalized level. Their wedding pros are on call to walk couples from question to answer and anytime. With tons of unique features and personalized recommendations based on a couple's preferences, every Zola wedding is as unique as the couple planning it. Zola has everything you need to plan your wedding in one place. You can find your venue and all your vendors, design personal, save the dates and invites, build a free wedding website, create your registry and stay on track and on budget throughout the entire process with their free planning tools. Registering with Zola is also free, so start planning@zola.com that's z o l a.com thank you Zola for sponsoring today's episode Everyone who knows Margaret says She's not what you think when you envision a 98 year old woman. She was strong, she was fierce. She was born in 1919. This took place in 2018. She was a few months away from turning 99. She lived through the Second World War, the moon landing. I mean she just seemed so excited to live out the rest of her days. She would tell her family she just wants to hit 100 because why not, you know? And we don't know too much about Margaret, but in almost every picture of her that I've seen, regardless of her age, there's always a dog. There's always a dog nearby and she's a big gardener. She lived in that house, tended to it for the past 50 years. Someone who once knew Margaret says, when I was a little girl, this woman would actually babysit. Now I'm in my 80s thinking about her, the crafts and games that she would play with me. And on my fifth birthday, my family and I moved away and I never saw her again. Just finding out about her death, I feel like it's too late to help. But she's with God now. I love her and I miss her forever. According to everyone that knew Margaret, she's just very independent. She handled her own finances. Her husband had passed. She didn't want to move. She wanted to live in this house that she had created. This whole life with him forever. And that was her dream. And then she gets murdered by a 17 year old kid. Back in the interrogation room, the officer confronts Gavin with the belief that she believes if he had not been caught, Gavin would have Gone on to kill more people. Because even after Gavin kills Margaret, he says he didn't really feel different. He said, I didn't really feel like anything had changed or had happened. I really didn't feel anything. I just continued to break into cars and drink and smoke dope.

Host (73:24)

Wow.

Expert (73:25)

The officer says, unfortunately, I think you would have hurt more people. Was that in your plan? I mean, it wasn't in my plan, but I could see that happening. Many netizens believe that he was ramping up to be a serial killer. So remember how I said in his little journal he had those serial killer reports also? To call it reports or research is kind of goofy. He makes it sound like he's sitting there doing some sort of focused work because he was telling his friends, almost bragging about it, that he's researching serial killers. I'm not entirely sure what compelled me to go down. Down this route, but after listening to hours and hours of his raw interrogation footage, the idea of him writing these snippets of these serial killers, it just didn't really make sense as to who I was hearing in the interrogation footage, as to who was writing in the journals. It was just copied and pasted from a crime magazine.

Host (74:13)

Oh, he's copying a crime magazine's words onto his own journal.

Expert (74:17)

Yes.

Host (74:18)

Pretending that this is his own thoughts.

Expert (74:20)

Yeah. Yes. So I don't think that he had a particular fascination in serial killers. I think that he had a fascination in wanting to be perceived as one or to be perceived as a dark.

Host (74:33)

Oh, like all the. Okay.

Expert (74:35)

So it doesn't seem like he's sitting there studying ted Bundy, his M.O. how he was caught, why he was caught, why he did those things. So it's very interesting because a lot of people. Some. Some people feel sympathy for the way that he keeps telling his friends he wants to understand what's going on in his mind. And then you would kind of. It would be safe to conclude that if he's researching serial killers, maybe he's trying to understand their minds, to see how it connects to his mind, but that's not the case. I think he just is a bad person. But he's saying these things not because he truly wants to understand himself, but I think. I personally think he just wants to be perceived a certain way because he's not really researching other minds that he feels are similar to him. He's not researching serial killers and their thought process. He's practically copying and pasting their Wikipedia pages down. It's hard to say that he's trying to understand himself through that. Gavin Ramsey is indicted and charged with one count of aggravated murder, two counts of murder, three counts of felony murder, one count aggravated burglary, one count kidnapping, and one count of abuse of a corpse. Gavin did see a counselor a few years prior to the murder, but I don't think that he told anybody about his necrophilic tendency. The counselor does go on to prescribe him, at one point, 100 milligrams of Zoloft per day. Zoloft is an antidepressant. 100 milligrams is a pretty high dosage. Now, I was inclined to assume that the counselor knew nothing, but according to his medical files, it's noted that January 2018, just three months before the murder, Gavin's pediatrician noted that Gavin was displaying psychological difficulties and having intrusive thoughts of violence. His mom states, if I could change one thing, I would never have agreed to put my son on Zoloft. So his whole defense during the trial is the Zoloft defense, that Zoloft made him more aggressive, more violent, which there are some studies that show that it does happen. That's their whole defense. The mom even says, you cannot believe that my decision to let him take Zoloft was not part of the cause of this. She claims that from January to March that he was on Zoloft, she noticed him getting increasingly irritable, hostile, even saying, quote, bizarre things. And prior to that, he was just the sweetest boy, I guess, which, like I said, there are studies done to show how Zoloft can impact people, especially teenagers, that it does increase aggression. Their symptoms of, you know, agitation, restlessness, anger, irritability. And she tells the judge, before this, Gavin was loyal to a father. He's compassionate. And this thing, this thing that we're sitting here discussing is not who my son is. I don't care how much you want to pluck out evil fast. That's not my son.

Host (77:14)

Huh?

Expert (77:15)

Side note, there is another odd moment with Gavin and his mom during the interrogation where he hasn't confessed to murder yet. I'm just giving you the dynamic of mother and son. He has not confessed to the murder of Margaret. He's only confessed to the carjacking. He's rocking back and forth, ranting and pointing at his mom, and he's saying, I'm costing them thousands of dollars because he's always getting in legal trouble. Constant heartbreak. I honestly probably never made either of them proud. I don't do anything good ever. And his mom just whips to him. And instead of being like, no, son, you do make me proud. She just goes, stop cussing, okay? She does not deny it, just tells him to stop. It's a weird interaction. And now she's up on the stand saying, he's compassionate, he's loyal to a fault. In addition to the Zoloft defense, if you will, his attorneys bring up his past. There are records that Gavin was allegedly a victim of a sexual offense back in 2009. So that means he would have been nine years old. We don't know exactly what happened, but we can kind of imagine and presume, based off of what he told authorities, that he had been with a man before, but it was, quote, involuntary. I couldn't find the case files anywhere, probably because he was nine at the time, but I'm not even sure if that's an argument that could be had. Some netizens, netizens think it is a fair argument considering that trauma could have shaped his brain differently when he's nine years old and sent him down this path. But be that as it may, other netizens say, what does Margaret have to do with that? A lot of people have been victimized, but they don't go out and do what he did. They don't go out and commit necrophilia. Also, who targets a 98 year old woman that feels completely unrelated to his alleged trauma? Ultimately, Gavin's defense and mother have argued that it's his taking of Zoloft that led him to commit this crime. The only time Gavin seems emotional throughout the entire trial proceedings is when his mom is testifying and stating that all of this is because of Zoloft. He does not get emotional, even when Margaret's family members give impact statements. Meanwhile, the prosecutor's main focus is not just the killing of Margaret, but what he did to Margaret's body afterwards. The police chief says this murder was the most horrific crime that he had ever seen in his 30 years of working as a cop. He says Gavin just has evil in him to do something like that. That's the only way I can explain it. Another officer says he degraded her body, videotaping and taking pictures. He's actually been in there with her for a while. He stayed for two hours. The only reason that he went home is because his mom wakes up at 5 in the morning and he had to pretend to be asleep. Who knows how much longer he would have stayed? Who knows what more he would have done? The prosecutors also argue that Zoloft cannot be the reason for his aggressive behavior. They call into evidence that he starts his Zoloft prescription. January 31, 2018. A week before January 19, 2018, he's writing in his journal, quote, I just want to fucking go off on someone and beat them until they're not breathing anymore. I honestly just want to take someone's life. The prosecutor also points to the fact that even during the interrogation, the time that he gets the most emotional, when he is practically rocking back and forth, this is again before he confesses to killing Margaret. This is when he thinks he's going to court for carjacking. He Sundays, I was 16 and already had a fucking felony, like five misdemeanors. And now I'm gonna be in more trouble and I have to go back to court. And I'm so done with it. I'm done with it. Honestly, I don't even want to live at home anymore. I don't know. I'm not fucking normal. I just need to live somewhere else. Like, I don't know, some halfway house or something. I honestly would not care at this point. I don't even care what's on my record. I mean, like, I do, but, like, not right now. I know I might have to deal with it for, like, another next nine months. And this is what makes me so mad. He acts like he's a victim, that he has to go through the court process. He's crying because of consequences. Later, when he's talking about what he did to Margaret, the authorities ask him, are you sorry this happened? Yeah, I'm really sorry I did all this. Were you sorry about all of this before you got caught? Yeah, like, constantly. I think about it a lot, and I feel bad about what I did. Like, I don't. I feel bad. I know it's wrong, but I can't express the emotion. If she was here alive in front of you, what would you say to her? I'm sorry that never. That never meant to happen. If I could take it back, I would.

Host (81:23)

Like, is he mimicking the.

Expert (81:25)

Yes. None of these are actual descriptions of feelings. These are what people call dead phrases. So when you're, like. I guess when you're writing or reading or even speaking, there's things. Dead phrases. I. If I could take it back, I would. It doesn't really actually mean anything, and it's been overused to the point where it does not evoke a feeling.

Host (81:45)

Yeah.

Expert (81:46)

You're not describing a feeling. You're almost just saying things.

Host (81:49)

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Expert (81:50)

It's. He's just saying what he thinks he needs to say.

Host (81:53)

Yeah. There's no emotion behind his words no so scary.

Expert (81:58)

And he also talks about how his dad is going to be so upset and he says, I know it's going to ruin our family name. That's what he says. It's going to ruin their family name.

Host (82:08)

See, so, okay. It gives the feeling is he understands the consequences, what this means, how bad this is, what's going to happen. He, he, he heard enough of it. He knows it. But he has no attachment, nothing. There's no emotion behind any of these. Right. No, that, that's what's so terrifying about.

Expert (82:28)

The only emotion he has is when he is facing prison and court.

Host (82:35)

Yeah. And even that, like it doesn't sound like he is. It's still different. Like he still, it's still, it's like he's annoyed by it.

Expert (82:44)

Yes. It's like agitating versus devastating.

Host (82:48)

Yeah.

Expert (82:49)

Eventually, Gavin pleads no contest and is found guilty November 2018 of all the charges against him, including aggravated murder, murder, aggravated burglary, kidnapping, gross abuse of a corpse. He also provides a statement to court to Margaret's family, which honestly is not a great statement. I think it provides no closure. He can't even explain why he did what he did. He just says, I don't know how to explain why all this happened. I don't think there is an explanation to begin with. I think about it all the time. I'd take it back in a heartbeat if I could. I feel terrible for what I've done and I will never do anything like that again. I'm sorry for what I did. I constantly live in regret and shame because of it. Margaret's family gave their victim impact statements and her great niece said had he not been caught, I have no doubt that he would continue to escalate his crimes and continue killing. And I believe he planned to kill numerous people. He used my aunt as a warm up, so to speak. Gavin was sentenced to life without the possibility of parole. 10 years for aggravated burglary, 10 for kidnapping, and one year of abuse of a corpse to be served consecutively. Which side note, a lot of netizens hope for the death penalty, but he was 17, which means he cannot face capital punishment. He has appealed his sentence, which was denied, but it doesn't really matter because in Ohio a new senate bill passed, it's the new law SB 256 and abolishes life imprisonment without parole for juvenile offenders. Even if they're charged as adults, they have automatic chance at parole at 25 years.

Host (84:18)

Wow.

Expert (84:19)

Now the keyword is chance. Now side note, in 25 years, Gavin will only be 42 years old. So even without Gavin's case, the bill is pretty controversial with one expert stating the person you are at 16 is not the person you are at 50. The juvenile brain is not fully developed. They do things impulsively while a prosecutor argues back that while maybe that's true for certain cases, maybe like drug related offenses, but in these types of cases like Gavin's, they say, quote, someone who has a propensity to become a serial killer and then gets out in 25 or 30 years. I don't agree with that at all.

Host (84:53)

Yeah, especially if they don't have the resources to help him, you know, in.

Expert (84:58)

That 25 years rehabilitate.

Host (84:59)

So how do you know in 42 is way too young?

Expert (85:04)

You know, like it's, it's the never ending circle of debates on this. Right. So a lot of netizens have pointed out if a juvenile has no chance of getting out of prison, they have no motivation to rehabilitate. Right. So then you give them that chance to rehabilitate. But the same netizens now argue, but there is no rehabilitation being done in our prisons. So if you don't fix that, then who cares about giving them a chance to be free?

Host (85:33)

Right.

Expert (85:34)

Because you're not going to rehabilitate them because you don't, you don't spend the resources. Our prison system is so messed up, it's not going to happen. So it's like this whole of what comes first, the chicken or the egg, I guess, is what a lot of people feel about this debate. Now, Margaret's family member says when he was sentenced, it was like, okay, we took a criminal off the road, we took him out of society, and now we're looking at, here we go again. Now he may be back in society at some time, which I don't even think that they're opposed to rehabilitating teens. Margaret's family member just says it puts all of these juvenile criminals into one box, whether they were being reckless and shooting a gun that accidentally killed someone, or if they're committing these devious plotting crimes like Gavin did. One senator argues, I mean this, the bill was looking at many of those cases where people have changed and turned their lives around, became good model prisoners and done everything right. They made a mistake when they were juveniles and were sentenced as adults. In no way does this new law guarantee release for offenders, only an opportunity for parole if they can show that they are truly rehabilitated. And while I get that, how do you really know? Sure, the judge presiding over the case said that that Gavin is irreparably corrupt and unfit to reenter society. But it won't be the same judge that determines if he gets probation. And what you see on the probation records is kind of a watered down version of the actual facts of the case. It's not going to be as in depth. You're not going to get the emotions of the family members, the victim impact statements. You're not going to have as much of that involved. And of course, people like Gavin are really good at faking remorse. This is how he writes about himself. He has a profile on the website writeaprisoner.com he's looking for pen pals. And it reads, Gavin Ramsey is 23 years old and incarcerated in Ohio, USA. He states he is an Aries, a Christian, but not seeking prayer partners. And he's straight. And his profile reads, hey there. I'll keep it short and sweet. And if I spark your curiosity, you're more than welcome to write to me. I'm looking for people who are interested in spirit, soul and body, growth and development. I enjoy conversations that delve far beneath the surface. And I love to laugh and see people smile as well. I believe everybody has something beautiful to contribute to the people and places around them. But it takes the right person to unearth so great a gem. Perhaps I'm that person for you. Perhaps you're that person for me. I enjoy writing music and poetry. I play sports and have a high regard for my health and fitness. I also crochet, which is more therapeutic than I originally thought. But only in prison would I learn such a craft. Lol. I'm in college and I'm always searching for proactive ways to mature as an individual, both for myself and for those around me. I believe if you want to see a difference, you have to be the difference this gives me. He's amping up for parole in 25 years, he says, thus I invite you to come be a difference with me. I look forward to hearing from you. Smiley face.

Host (88:29)

Wow.

Expert (88:31)

He will be eligible for parole when he is 42 years old in 2043. Margaret's family says it's terrifying. They say several family members chose to give victim impact statements at his sentencing. Before his sentencing, they have to give victim impact statements. They don't know what his sentence is going to be. They know that he's been found guilty, but they don't know the sentence. He could be out and about. They said, we know that if we put our true thoughts in our statements, Gavin would be able to read and hear them. And we discuss the risk of giving him fuel for the rage he carries inside him, knowing that at some point he might be released from prison while my siblings and I are still al. He's relatively young and knowing he may come after us. But we all decided to move forward with our statement and trusted that the criminal justice system would ensure that justice, as well as our safety and the community's safety would be prioritized when sentencing. The amount of relief when we found out that he had life without parole, immeasurable. That relief is now gone. Because of SB256. We now spend every day worrying about Gavin's release. His release may happen not only when my siblings and I are still alive, but when my parents are alive. So this is the great niece Cindy's daughter. Cindy and Howard's daughter.

Host (89:36)

Wow.

Expert (89:37)

I still have nights when I need to check closets and under the bed out of paranoia. I still have nights where I wake up suddenly and have to put my gun next to me on the bed in order to feel safe. If he wasn't concerned about getting home prior to his parents waking, how much longer would he have stayed with Margaret? What else would he have done?

Host (89:54)

I mean, I, I think I can feel that like, like, because his crying is so senseless, so unreasonable. Like, this is truly a mind of a serial killer. So you feel so terrified because there's no closure. You can predict how this person is going to act.

Expert (90:11)

Because I think we as humans all run on a system of calculating other people's risk tolerance. It's. I don't believe this person will kill me because then they will forfeit this. They have this risk of what happens to them. But it truly seems he does not care for that. He actually likes the thrill of taking risks. So it's, it's very unpredictable, I'm sure, is the feeling. And so scary.

Host (90:36)

Yeah.

Expert (90:37)

They say our sense of safety has forever changed, but they're going to fight every parole hearing, every chance that he's going to be free or every chance he could be free, they're going to be there. Many netizens have also said it's scary because in court he's very polite. Very polite to the judge. He presents as a very well put together young man. And the top comments read, was he this polite when he was murdering a defenseless elderly lady? The only time that he's emotional during the trial is when his mom is talking and when they tell him that he's going to county jail rather than juvenile detention. And he looks physically ill. A lot of netizens are focused on the victim's age. They write, imagine being 98. You escape death by accidents, illness, lived through world wars, the Great Depression and more. So close to dying in your bed peacefully, only for a lowlife to do this to you. Some netizens feel very conflicted on whether or not he has the ability to rehabilitate, stating mixed emotions on this one. What he did was absolutely disgusting and evil. But this is a child whose brain is not completely developed and trained. I really don't know what way to go in this case. Others think, oh he's way too far gone now. They write it's a good thing they caught him while he's young because this type of action just escalates as they get older. Something some people cannot be fixed. Another writes, I don't know how people can question it. Some people are just born this way. They should be eradicated from society. You cannot fix them OR Senate Bill 256 is going to protect this kid to an extent, but hopefully a parole board will see the serial killer in him and deny him parole for life. If they let him out, he will absolutely do it again. Serial killers do not stop unless they're dead or caught. Another comment reads, this is Jeffrey Dahmer in the making. Thank God he was stopped at his first victim, rest her soul. There would have been many more to come. Other netizens are shocked at the crime itself, saying, the father screaming, it's my son, my son that did this. It's heartbreaking. Others comment, his parents seem like alright people, but I just get the feeling that something is off with his mom. She's saying the right words, but I just felt something off about her. I don't know, I can't explain it. Which many netizens who watch her statement in court agree. They say, did she just call her son compassionate? Not sure what this woman knows what compassionate even means. Other moms agree, if that was my son, I would not be calling him compassionate. I would be taking him to prison myself. Or another one reads, that boy is like that because of his mom. You know, even when slapped in the face with how much of a monster her demon spawn is, she chooses to ignore and coddle him. She raised that she should be ashamed. His mommy says he's compassionate. Yeah, well so is the justice system who gave him life sentence with parole. Now another comment just points out, if a detective ever asks you what do you think should happen to the person that did this, just know that you are their suspect lol. And that is where we are with this case. What are your thoughts? Do you think that he can be rehabilitated? Can someone this far gone be rehabilitated or no know what are your thoughts? Let me know in the comments and I will see you in the next one. Be safe. Bye.