5 Pro Hockey Players Accused Of Gang SA But They Argue She Had Fantasy Of “Doing The Whole Team”

Summary

Rotten Mango Podcast – Episode Summary

Episode Title: 5 Pro Hockey Players Accused Of Gang SA But They Argue She Had Fantasy Of "Doing The Whole Team"
Host: Stephanie Soo
Date: October 26, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode explores one of Ontario’s most scandalous recent true crime cases: the Hockey Canada scandal involving five pro hockey players accused of gang sexual assault (SA) against a 20-year-old woman after a championship gala in 2018. The hosts conduct a deep dive into hockey culture, toxic masculinity, detailed legal proceedings, and the tension between “joke” culture and criminal acts – all set amid explosive evidence, shocking group chats, and a controversial judicial acquittal.

Stephanie delivers her signature detail-rich storytelling, complete with insights into the psychology, power structures, and misogynistic culture surrounding junior and pro hockey. The episode is a critical, unflinching account that covers everything from horrifying “bro” hockey bibles, the judicial system, the victim’s harrowing story, consent “videos,” internet reactions, and the fallout for Canadian hockey.

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Key Sections & Discussion Points

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1. Junior Hockey Culture & “The Junior Hockey Bible”

Start: 01:08

• Introduction to toxic hockey lingo:
  The co-host describes the notorious online "Junior Hockey Bible," a website popular among junior and semi-pro hockey players, filled with jargon glorifying misogyny, sexual conquest, and degrading women.

  • Terms include “duster” (bad benchwarmer player), “band-aid” (always-injured), and more grotesquely, “swamp donkey” “sea donkey” “sloptart,” etc.—all dehumanizing women in hockey bar culture.
  • The “Bible” included “tips” on manipulating women and performing sex acts, and instructions for filming or involving teammates in sexual encounters without consent—a “guidebook to degrading women, or potentially even SA” (07:13).

• The language and ideas from the Bible become centrally important:
  The accused players use this exact slang and are later shown to have mirrored “moves” outlined in the Bible, leading to broader questions: Are locker room “jokes” actually blueprints for violent, criminal behavior? Did generations of players take this as permission to act?

Quote:

“Are we sure this is like a junior Hockey bible? Or are we talking about a guidebook to degrading women? Or potentially even SA?”
— Co-host, 08:28

Timestamps to note: Definition recitation and discussion, 01:30–09:40.

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2. The Criminal Case: Hockey Canada SA Allegations

Start: 09:41

Background:

• In 2018, five Hockey Canada junior champions (now NHL pros) are accused of gang SA after a victory gala in London, Ontario.
• The case becomes public in 2022 and leads to an explosive, high-stakes trial in 2025.

Pretrial and Courtroom Chaos:

Jury panel drama, victim protection, and judicial maneuvering (13:00–22:00)

• Multiple jury panels dismissed:
  • The first dismissed after a juror alleges inappropriate communication from a defense attorney (15:00).
  • The second, composed mostly of women, dismissed after complaints that defense attorneys are intimidating and mocking the jury (17:30).
    • Victim is cross-examined for 7 straight days—perceived as brutal victim-blaming (16:20).
  • Ultimately, the defense moves for a judge-only trial, claiming not to want the victim to undergo repeated trauma.

Quote:

“This seven day cross-examination is like the most victim-blaming cross-examination that people have said have taken place in the year of 2025.”
— Co-host, 16:20

Legal Explainer:

• Difference between jury and judge trials; speculation that the defense “orchestrated” a judge-only verdict for favorable result (20:00–22:00).

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3. The Night of the Incident: Victim’s Account

Start: 26:21

Events at Jack’s Bar & Delta Hotel:

• M (pseudonym for the victim) meets Michael McLeod (one of the accused) after being introduced by a mutual acquaintance; she drinks heavily (28:30).
• They return to his hotel room and have consensual sex; she’s left naked on the bed as more teammates enter the room without her knowledge or invitation (37:10).
• M’s story:
  • She’s startled, flees to bathroom, but when she emerges, even more men are present.
  • She’s told to get on the floor and perform sexual acts, is spat on, and faces dehumanizing commands—her memory grows patchy due to intoxication and trauma (39:00–43:00).
  • Michael McLeod, the originally-consensual partner, leaves to get food, then returns, shirtless, and watches alongside others.
  • M testifies she felt powerless, afraid to physically leave, and that the group joked about using golf clubs and balls in sexual “feats.” At points, she is crying, and others allegedly try to stop her leaving (44:30).
  • She is raped in the bathroom by Alex Formenton, forced to perform further acts, and ultimately told to leave so McLeod and Formenton can sleep ahead of the golf tournament (45:00–46:00).

Memorable Quote:

“My mind just kind of shut down and I let my body do what it thought it needed to do to keep me safe.”
— Victim’s account, 40:16

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4. Police Investigation, ‘Consent Videos,’ & Defense Strategy

Start: 46:53

Accused Players' Defense:

• Michael McLeod shows police two “consent videos” made in the hotel room:
  • First video: 03:25am, McLeod films M being asked “you’re okay with this, right?” to which she says yes, while wiping her eyes.
  • Second video: 04:26am, towel-clad M states “it was all consensual... I am so sober, that’s why I can’t do this right now” (suggesting the opposite).
• Police interviews quote McLeod as “she said it was her fantasy... If it were up to her, she would have had sex with the whole team.” (46:53–48:20)

Group Chats and “Story Coordination”:

• Explosive evidence: Players create chat groups post-incident, strategizing to make their stories match (“We all need to say the same thing if we get interviewed... can’t have different stories or make anything up,” 86:22).
  • Explicit minimizing (“let’s not make her sound like, too crazy because… she can get more angry and we don’t need that”, 89:42; “all we have to say is... the girl started begging everyone to have sex with her,” 91:00)
• Private messages: McLeod DMs M to discourage her from legal action—these are entered into evidence (92:03).

Memorable Quote:

“Just tell the truth, but also: we can’t have different stories or make anything up.”
— Michael McLeod, Group Chat (86:22)

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5. The Judicial Verdict — Scathing, Controversial Acquittal

Start: 51:03 / Verdict read at approximately 53:00

• The Judge (Justice Maria):

  • Delivers a five-hour, 91-page verdict, acquitting all players.
  • Despite noting “people react differently to SA” and stating “believe the victim has no place in criminal trial,” the judge’s logic repeatedly blames the victim, focusing on her actions (walking naked to a room of men, not leaving when she could have, “choosing” to remain unclothed, etc.) as proof against her credibility (53:00–54:45).

• Contradictory Standards:

  • The judge excuses intoxication and gaps in memory for the accused but not for the victim, fueling outrage (89:45).

Memorable Quotes:

“To approach a trial with the assumption that the complainant is telling the truth is the equivalent of imposing a presumption of guilt on the person accused of sexual assault and then placing a burden on him to prove his innocence.”
— Judge Justice Maria, 53:27

“I do not find the evidence of M to be either credible or reliable with respect to the charges before the court.”
— Judge Justice Maria, 55:12

• Public Outrage:
  Widespread protests, outrage at Hockey Canada, and deep disillusionment with Canadian justice follow; fans and survivors’ advocates rally outside.

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6. Discussion of Consent, Rape Culture & Hockey Masculinity

Scattered throughout, see: 01:08–09:40, 61:34–77:04

• Host’s Perspective:
  Stephanie challenges mythologies about consent, “locker room talk,” and victim-blaming.
  • Hockey’s normalization of violence (explained in-depth: legal fist-fighting, “enforcers,” code of conduct)—how systems encourage hyper-masculinity and aggression but then protect perpetrators when lines are crossed.
  • Notable: The very “party tricks” and sexual dares depicted in group chat and trial (“do the splits on her face” as a “party trick”) correspond word-for-word to segments in the Junior Hockey Bible and real-life testimonies.

Quote:

“It’s like you just throw in three words as insurance, as security. Just in case someone goes through these text messages… That’s not how I would talk if that’s exactly what happened.”
— Host, 88:23

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7. The Fallout: Careers, Hockey Canada, and Survivors

Start: 80:31

The Accused:

• Michael McLeod (New Jersey Devils), Alex Formenton, Carter Hart (Philadelphia Flyers), Dylan Dubé (Calgary Flames), and Cal Foote (Tampa Bay Lightning, New Jersey Devils)—all suspended or self-benched during the trial.
• Career and contract details described; many returned to play (after acquittal) amid public backlash.

Broader Implications:

• Case triggers new scrutiny of Hockey Canada, hockey culture, and criminal law re: sexual assault and consent.
• Highlighting the long-term emotional, mental, and financial costs for survivors—incl. prohibitive court transcript fees for victims themselves (95:42).

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “Are we sure this is like a junior Hockey bible? Or are we talking about a guidebook to degrading women? Or potentially even SA?” — Co-host, 08:28
• “This seven day cross-examination is like the most victim-blaming cross-examination that people have said have taken place in the year of 2025.” — Co-host, 16:20
• “My mind just kind of shut down and I let my body do what it thought it needed to do to keep me safe.” — Victim’s testimony, 40:16
• “Just tell the truth, but also: we can't have different stories or make anything up.” — Michael McLeod, 86:22
• “To approach a trial with the assumption that the complainant is telling the truth is the equivalent of imposing a presumption of guilt...” — Judge, 53:27
• “I do not find the evidence of M to be either credible or reliable...” — Judge, 55:12
• “Their mix up of timeline, she excuses by gaps of memory... but when that applies to the victim, she's like, you're lying, you're uncredible, you're not reliable.” — Host, 89:45

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Timeline of Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment / Topic | |------------|-------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:08–09:40| The Junior Hockey Bible & misogynistic culture explained | | 13:00–22:00| Jury panel drama, court system, legal strategy | | 26:21–46:00| The night in question: Victim's detailed account | | 46:53–48:31| Consent videos and police interviews with accused | | 86:22–92:00| Group chats, ‘story coordination’, evidence | | 53:00–57:40| The verdict: judge’s statements and aftermath | | 61:34–80:31| Ice hockey violence and culture, defense history, pro careers |

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Tone and Approach

Stephanie Soo delivers the harrowing details with empathy, sarcasm, and righteous anger, deeply skeptical of the self-serving logic of sports “bro” culture and the failures of the justice system. She maintains a measured, legally aware tone, repeatedly reminding listeners of the importance of legality vs. morality and using “alleged” throughout. The podcast is critical, informed, and refuses to gloss over distressing sexual violence or public hypocrisy.

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Conclusion & Next Episode

The episode ends with Stephanie expressing disbelief and frustration at the legal reasoning and cultural systems that allow such violence to go unpunished. The story will continue in Part 2, where further evidence, trial specifics, and deeper commentary on law, culture, and survivor experience are promised.

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If You Haven’t Listened:

This episode provides an unfiltered, detailed recounting of a major scandal, exploring not only the crime but the culture and legal loopholes that shape outcomes. It is explicit, challenging, and at times distressing, but offers invaluable insight into how sexual violence, privilege, and institutional rot intertwine at the highest levels of sport.

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For further resources, visit: rottenmangopodcast.com

Transcript

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[Host]

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[Co-host]

It starts off as an email chain of hockey players in the United States and in Canada. And they are just emailing each other back and forth sharing their wildest wins. I don't even think many of these hockey players have even met each other or played a game against each other. Everyone's just adding their teammates into this massive thread. This email chain at this point feels more like an urban legend, but apparently it's very real. And apparently it gets so big that a few of the players decide, I'm just going to make a website for it. And here is like a new general rule of thumb when you open up a website and the first thing you read on there is just ominously take this wisdom wisely boys. And then a disclaimer, hey, if you can't take a fucking joke, then go find yourself on the Disney Channel. Warning Disclaimer the content is not safe for work. So school, your girlfriend or your mother. This is the junior hockey Bible. It reads like a dictionary. It just has words and then the definitions for them. And mostly they're hockey related. So I thought this is like a hockey terminology book. Duster this term refers to those unfortunate souls who usually only step on the ice with 14 seconds to go in the game. That's it. Why the term duster? Because this fucking plug has been sitting on the bench the entire game collecting dust. Always the worst player on the team. Band Aid. A player who is always hurt. Every game he gets a new injury and he is pretty much the joke of the team. A mess Usually quits hockey and goes home to work with his dad cleaning out shitters. Bobby Big Wheel. This is the guy on the team who thinks he's God's gift to women. But really, he's a fucking joke. He's not really going anywhere in life or in hockey. Then they have terms of how people play hockey. Taking one for the team. Being a team player can refer to when your friend has sealed the deal with a girl at a bar after a game and they're going to go back to her place, but unfortunately your teammate has forgotten her name due to the 13 beers that he has consumed. You then step up and ask the girl what is her name? So loudly that it will sink into your friend's head. You then repeat her name as many times as possible so that he won't forget it. Rachel. That is a lovely name. Rachel. I once knew a girl named Rachel. Trooper. One of the most important elements to a hockey team, a trooper is that one guy you can always count on. This guy. You call him any time of day. He's going to go out drinking with you. It doesn't matter if he's got four final exams the next day. The Trooper is usually one of the most popular guys on the team, but also the dumbest. But then it starts getting very strange. The Junior Hockey Bible. Because it starts listing off things that have nothing to do with hockey. The Swamp Donkey. Have you ever heard of a swamp donkey? This species lurks in the depths of the bar scene across the nations. Telltale signs of a swamp donkey are many and varied, including the wearing of granny underwear, tight shirts exposing their fat, disgusting sloth bodies, and a face that looks like a rotten bee's nest. Swampers must be avoided before the consumption of at least 13 beers. And after that, proceed with caution and only poke her in if you can degrade her in some way in front of the boys, preferably on a video. Sea Donkey. A sea donkey is a close relative of the swamp donkey, but has several subtle differences. Sea donkeys can be found at keg parties where they are highly intoxicated and not very attractive. These beasts are of the sea or masters at boozing, and once intoxicated they are looking to get some hockey dick. They enjoy being told that they are fat while you are doing their fat asses. So don't be afraid to say it. Only approach after 25 beers and after all other options have failed, including the R worded girl with no legs named Bobby no legs.

[Host]

Wait, these are on the website that.

[Co-host]

Has now since been taken down but this is the junior hockey bible and it's very interesting because at first people thought it was an urban legend, but people were saying, you go to a junior hockey game, you're going to hear these terms from the hockey players.

[Host]

So you're saying this is like a somewhat big website for the community.

[Co-host]

Yes. And people know these terms. I see they use these terms especially in this case. Then you have a war pig, one of the most endangered species on earth. This species lives in the trenches of the bar scene and they aren't afraid to get their noses dirty. They will stop at nothing to get what they want. They are ruthless, disgusting, filthy pigs who will beat up your girlfriend to bang you. No man is proud after banging a war pig. But one great thing is these animals love it in their butt. They, they will take it like a champ. Enjoy these pigs, but keep them to yourself. If you find a war pig, please report to the CHL so authorities may shoot this beast and put them in a cage forever. Next definition. Sloptart. These are the lowest form of sluts. They thrive in a world of disgusting low level junior rinks. They often possess nasty teeth and coke bottle glasses. These creatures are by far the scariest animals in any league. There is no reason to ever communicate with these disgusting animals, which is different from a sloth. A sloth is a cave dweller. They wear a lot of makeup to give the sloth like appearance. They can grow to be as big as £700. But interestingly enough, these gentle creatures never get taller than 4ft high. This unbalanced body is what shapes them into the slothy slut that they are. They are not capable of banging, but can give decent gummers. Sloths are like scooters. They are fun to ride until the boys see you on one. The website is really bad. They also have different tips on how to avoid different types of sluts at the bars that are swamp dwellers, sea dwellers, whatever derogatory term that you want to put on women. They say that one thing that you have to do is put a picture of a very hot girl in your wallet so that once you've had many beers and you're talking to this girl and you think that she's hot and you think that she's not a sea dweller. You pull out your wallet and you reference the hot girl pic and you compare and if they're comparable then you can go home with the sea dweller. It's getting weird to the point where people are saying, are we sure that this is like a junior Hockey bible? Or are we talking about a guidebook to degrading women? Or potentially even essay? These are the terms in question that I think ultimately gets the website taken down. Cinema. This is the honorable act of letting your friends watch you bang A dirty cinemas are only filmed by hockey boys. As everyone else in the world finds this disgusting. Some girls don't mind being watched, but others will flip out if you accidentally roll out of the closet laughing because your buddy is saying funny shit as he's banging the bitch. If busted, the actor, the guy who's banging denies any knowledge of the cinema. So basically the cinema is like when you are having intimate relations with a girl without their consent. You get your hockey buddies to watch from the closet and then if one of them accidentally laughs because you're doing something funny while you're having intimate relations, then the person who is engaged in the intimate relations, they have to suddenly act very upset like what are you doing, bro? Just to make her feel better. When really he is laughing on the inside. A great family event for all. Then you have the mystery hand. The mystery hand is one of the best kept secrets in the league. This can only be performed while watching your buddies perform a tag team. When you hear a threesome, you quickly and quietly sneak into the room and drop to the ground like a heap of shit. Now, as the girl is getting worked, raise your right hand from under the bed. Give it a little stretch to make sure your right is working and make sure it's in working order. Now move the hand closer and gently grab any boobies you can find. Careful not to grab a sausage. Or this could lead to being dummied. Dummied is like being made fun of. Once you get your rocks off quickly go back into stealth mode and remove your camo and sneak back out the door. No one knew you were there and it doesn't make you a bad guy. People are arguing. This sounds like a guidebook to essay. It's like an instruction manual, a step by step. But others are saying, is it really like this could just be a really bad joke between athletes. Do we think that it's appropriate? Absolutely not. Do you want to hang out with people who use these terms? Absolutely not. But is it really a guidebook? This entire junior hockey bible comes up in this case multiple times. Because these are the terms that are being used. And then these are the actions that five junior hockey pro athletes, ice hockey players are are accused of doing. There are certain parts of this junior hockey bible that they are accused of committing.

[Host]

That's the Website Junior Hockey Bible.

[Co-host]

Yes, I see. And now in 2025, there was recently a trial where five pro ice hockey athletes are accused of committing some of the crimes that are directly listed in this Junior Hockey Bible. They use the same terms that are listed. They're texting using some of the language from the Junior Hockey Bible. And now everybody is wondering, was this not just a online joke? Is this real? And are people taking notes from this? This is the case of the Hockey Canada scandal where five pro level athletes have been accused of essaying and gang r wording A 20 year old girl after a Hockey Canada gala. We would like to thank today's sponsors who have made it possible for Rotten Mango to support the Ontario Coalition of Rape Crisis Centers. It's a network of essay centers in Ontario that offer information and support services to survivors of violence, including harassment, human trafficking, childhood sexual abuse and incest. This episode's partnerships have also made it possible to support our growing team and we' also like to thank you guys for your continued support. As always, full show notes are available@rogen mangopodcast.com Today's case involves mentions of potential drugging and gang essay. Please click off and prioritize yourself if these are too much. One big disclaimer before we get started. I want to be very clear that ultimately, in the eyes of Canadian law, these men were acquitted of their charges separately and totally unrelated. I want to note that there are cases like O.J. simpson and Sean Diddy Combs where they too have been acquitted of some if not of all of their charges. And my point being with that is that healthy suspicion is not illegal. Having a personal opinion on someone's morality or how you think a case should have played out in this court system is not illegal, nor is it defamatory. But just to be very clear, we are going to use the word alleged. We are going to use words that are legally more in line with the court's judgment, but that does not reflect how we personally feel. It's just a way of making sure that this episode is okay. So with that in mind, let's get started. It's really hard being a juror. That's what everyone says. And in Canada I think you only get paid like $40 a day to be on a jury. I believe it's the same in a lot of states in the United States and it's just very stressful, especially if you are a juror on one of the most high profile cases in Ontario history in recent years, which is the Hockey Canada pro athlete essay scandal. The gang r wording of a 20 year old woman, an anonymous victim who has come forward and these five multimillionaire ice hockey players known in the ice hockey world essayed her back in 2018. This. It's going to, it's going to be very difficult to be a juror on that panel. And that is the very first day one of the jurors walks in and they state to the judge, something very strange has happened. To give you a lay of the land, this is not like any other trial. I mean, I will say that with some other attorneys, they have many different defense attorneys, but you're talking about five accused, five men that have been accused and each of them have one or two separate attorneys. So you've got like a whole row of 10 defense attorneys and they're all going to cross examine the witnesses, they're all going to cross examine the victim. It's going to be very intense. And one of the jurors comes forward and says, day one, all they did was go through the Crown's opening statements. So in Canada, they call it the Crown. It's basically the prosecutors, like the feds or, you know, the state. So the Crown, they go through their opening statements and the juror said, I went to lunch at a nearby restaurant. I was in line trying to get my lunch and I recognized one of the defense attorneys because again, in Canada you have a very specific attire that you wear as a court attorney. And they turn around, I make eye contact and it was very uncomfortable because jurors like here are told, you cannot interact with attorneys, you cannot interact with any of the members of the press. You see them act like they don't exist. Don't eat. We were told, don't even say good morning. Don't even acknowledge a good morning. Don't say good morning. Don't even say sorry if you accidentally bump into them in the elevator. Like, do not interact with them, period. No words. Because you don't want anyone to think you're saying something. So don't even say anything, don't look at them, nothing. And so she's saying, it was weird because she looked at me. The defense attorney straight up looks me in the eye and she mentions along the lines of, that was a lot of head nodding we saw and a lot of head shaking. Because during Crazy the Crown's opening statements, I guess they were saying, oh, that's disgusting, I can't believe this happened. Or they're nodding like, yeah, you're right, that's bad. I guess that's what the defense attorney perhaps maybe thought the juror goes to this, to the judge and is like, I don't know what to do with this information. I'm just saying I think it's highly inappropriate. The defense attorney states, that is absolutely not what happened at all. I was in line for lunch and I was talking about a completely unrelated case with one of my colleagues. I turn around and I recognize one of the jurors, because, you know, we had just been in court all day, and I said, oop, this is awkward. And then I turned around and that was the extent of our conversation. In absolutely no world would I jeopardize my license to practice just so that I could make a comment such as. That was a lot of head nodding. They basically deny that this happened. And the jurors on day one are dismissed. All of them dismissed after jury selection.

[Host]

Wait, all of them?

[Co-host]

All of them.

[Host]

So they go through it again?

[Co-host]

Yes, they go through jury selection all over again. Thankfully, it was just day one. So it was just the Crown's opening statements. But it gets so suspicious. The second panel of jurors come in, and all of these jurors are predominantly women. Because when you have a high profile essay case, that's what's gonna happen. You're gonna need a lot of women on that panel. You're gonna need a lot of women in that jury box. For people to feel like maybe, maybe this is not rigged. Maybe we can believe in the justice system. And so they've got majority women on the second jury. I believe this first jury were 11 women and three men.

[Host]

Wow.

[Co-host]

Yeah. The second one was a little bit more balanced, but still majority women. But one of them comes up, and this is after the victims. Her initials are E.M. there's a publication ban. She is an anonymous victim. But I feel like EM is a lot. Maybe I'll call her like, M. Emmy. I don't even know her name, but just M. Right. So, Em, she is on the stand and she is testifying through a zoom call. And it's very interesting the way that they do it. So when she sees the camera, everyone is blurred. So she can only see the attorney asking her questions. She cannot see the accused. So that was very nice. But she testifies for two days. And this is the prosecutor. They're guiding her through her testimony. And then her cross examination lasts seven days. Typically, that is unheard of. You want to keep the cross examination similar to the actual testimony. Otherwise it's like, what are we doing? And this seven day cross examination is like the most Victim blaming cross examination that people have said have taken place in the year of 2025. It was absolutely ridiculous to the point where a lot of members of the press in that courtroom have state it seemed like the jurors were not enjoying, seemed like they thought it was overkill. Like you're just, you might have made some points but now you're just beating a dead horse. Now you're just traumatizing people. Like this is, this is not humane. At the end of the victim's nine day testimony, one of the jurors sends in a note to the judge and it reads every day when we enter the courtroom, Alex Formentins, one of the accused, two attorneys, they observe us. And these are the same attorney that were accused of being in the lunch line and saying that was a lot of head nodding. Same attorneys every day they observe us, whisper to each other and turn to each other and laugh as if they're discussing our appearance. We think that this is highly unprofessional and unacceptable. After four weeks, the second jury is dismissed.

[Host]

How that's crazy.

[Co-host]

And this is when all the defense attorneys say, well, we don't want to put the victim through another brutal cross examination because you know, the Crown had the opening statements twice. Once for the first jury, once for the second jury. But the victim, she testified for nine days. But if we get a whole new jury in here, she's going to have to go through all of that all over again because they can't just watch pre recordings, they can't just watch or read the transcripts just to testify. So why don't we just have the judge decide the verdict?

[Host]

See. Okay, so just back to that, right? That's so frustrating. During the Diddy's trial, similar situation kind of happened, right? Like Diddy was head nodding this and that, but judge almost threw the book at them saying, you better stop that right now otherwise your rights going to be taken away, you're going to be not going to be able to be here. But this one, it's the opposite. The judge is like, no, you, all of y' all removed. The judge is punishing the, the jury, the jury and the victim.

[Co-host]

Yes, the, the judge is saying that her hands were tied because at this point the defense attorneys are arguing that there is so much negative bias against the defense attorneys that it could reflect and to how they are handling the case.

[Host]

See, that's so frustrating too because again, back to the Diddy trial. You can see the judge was trying to take a, do his research and usually he tried to Be more understanding of the jury. Right. Like always.

[Co-host]

Always. And the witnesses.

[Host]

Yeah, the win. Yeah, exactly.

[Co-host]

But not in this case. The defense attorneys decide we want the judge to handle this case. And that is what kickstarts one of the most controversial cases in Canada in recent history. And it all goes back to 2018. This is where it gets very strange, because this trial is happening.

[Host]

I'm so sorry. I might have missed. So after they dismissed the second group.

[Co-host]

Yes.

[Host]

Of jury. What happened next?

[Co-host]

The defense attorneys say, you know what? We don't want to put the victim through that again. We're gonna do this with just the judge. And this is very important because a lot of people think, they speculate, this is their personal opinion, that this was.

[Host]

All planned because this judge likes them a little more.

[Co-host]

Maybe it's worse than that. This becomes one of the biggest cases in Canada, and everyone is protesting this trial. People are outside the trial with signs, justice for Women. There are people protesting Hockey Canada, the entire organization. There are people, ice hockey fans, who stop watching ice hockey because of this trial. And they think that the panel of citizens are too understanding of sexual trauma. They might be.

[Host]

Can you. Okay, before that, can you explain to some, if anyone, who doesn't understand, like, the. The difference between jury trial and just judge?

[Co-host]

Yes. Okay. So a jury trial is you are being judged amongst what you would say, your peers. You get a group of people that are selected by both the crown, the prosecutors, and the defense attorneys. They have to agree on the select people, and they will have a unanimous verdict at the end whether you are guilty or not guilty. Now, these people are not attorneys. These people are not jud. So there is a lot of emotional bias that goes into play. They're told not to have emotional bias. They're told to look at the evidence, but at the same time, they're human. So they're gonna have a lot of emotional bias. There's people outside this courthouse protesting hockey Canada, protesting ice hockey, protesting these athletes. And so they say, it's not because we don't want a jury. In fact, our clients are so disappointed that they're not gonna be judged by a panel of their peers. But it's just. We don't wanna put the victim through that again. So we want just the judge to.

[Host]

Decide the verdict, which is an option that you can.

[Co-host]

It is their right. It is their right. Technically right.

[Host]

And usually people don't want that.

[Co-host]

No. Because judges are typically letter of the law. And you're not going to have, you know, judges. It really depends on the people don't like it.

[Host]

They want a jury trial.

[Co-host]

Yeah, they want a jury trial.

[Host]

But in this case they believe it's better for them.

[Co-host]

Yes. And this judge at the end will release a five hour verdict. Five hour 91 page verdict of the most scathing comments anyone has heard about an essay victim in recent time. But this case goes back to 2018. The accused are now like 27, 28, 29. But back when this happened in 2018, they were 19 and 20 years old and they were part of a junior hockey league. Junior hockey is like 19, 20. This is before you hit NHL, NHL being National Hockey League. That would be like the NBA, the NFL. Before you hit that league, you're in the junior leagues. And this team in Ontario, Canada had just won the world championship. These are like the best 19, 20 year olds on ice hockey, like playing on ice in the entire globe. They're on a high. This entire win is setting them up for success the way that they won. The team captain, Dylan Dube, he Sundays there was two minutes left on the clock, it was overtime. They were going against up against the Swedes, The Swedes, Sweden team known for being cutthroat. They're good, but the problem is they get upset when things aren't going their way. The Swedes get flustered, okay, that team specifically. So they get very angsty and that's when you need to hit them hard. And so they got two minutes left. Dylan Dubay, who is one of the accused, he says, right when I was saying to my teammates, like, we got two minutes left on the clock, whoever makes the next shot, what is winning the world champ? And that is when they freaking score and they just go crazy. This game specifically was very amped up. It was very hyped, the way that the entire rink was set up, the stadium was set up. The Swedish team, they didn't have a private exit, which they try to do. And so there was a lot of drama of them even exiting after losing the game, where all the Canadians are yelling at them, making fun of them, because, you know, that's like the ice hockey spirit. This game specifically the goaltender, which is basically the goalkeeper. You know how ice hockey works, right?

[Host]

Not really.

[Co-host]

It's like soccer, but on ice with sticks and pucks. Anyone who watches ice hockey is going to be very infuriated by that type of analogy. But I just want to say, as someone who is not capable of playing any sports because I am so incompetent with my mobility and my coordination skills, it's just the best way to explain it. It's like soccer on ice. You're going, you're skating high speed, but it's also an element of football because you can slam into the other players. You can. You're not tackling them to the ground, but you can slam into them so that they get out of your way. It's a very high physical contact sport and it's very dangerous. But the goaltender who's standing in front of the goal making sure that the pucks don't go into the goal because that's how you score points, he ends up stopping 35 pucks that game. He prevents 35. Yeah. Which is very impressive, very difficult. And he says after the Giant win, it was one of the best days of my life. Like the best day ever. Very quickly after that, Hockey Canada, which is the nation's. Canada's biggest hockey organization other than the NHL they oversee from baby hockey all the way up to the NHL. If you're playing the junior league in Canada, you're being, you have interactions with Hockey Canada if you're a good player. All the like, boy recruitment centers of like five year olds learning to play hockey, that's usually done by Hockey Canada. You're gonna have major league players that are gonna come in through Hockey Canada to train these boys and then they grow up to become. And I say boys because they're like five. I'm not talking about these 19 year old boys. I'm talking like five year old boys. And every single year they have the Hockey Canada gala. And all of the hockey Canadian players are invited to this massive place where they have all these different award ceremonies and they have MVP of the year. They do all of that stuff. And they have a golf tournament. And that is exactly what takes place in 2018 in London, Ontario, Canada. Some people thought it was happening in London. It's just London, Ontario and Canada.

[Host]

Okay. London is the town.

[Co-host]

Is the town. Yes. So when I say London police, I'm not talking about in Britain. I'm talking about, you know, in Canada. But they have this huge place rented out in London, Ontario, and everybody's gathered there. And this year specifically, it's absolute chaos because Canadians won the World Championship. I mean, there's many Canadian teams, but they won the world Championship. So this is a huge year. And this specific team, they're going all out, they're getting drunk. The drinking age is not 21 in Canada, it's younger. So they're getting drunk, they're getting wasted. Hockey Canada is even providing alcoholic beverages. They're just doing Everything. They're away from family, they're staying in a hotel room with their buddies, with their other teammates. Like they've got two dudes in each hotel room and they're just having an absolute menace of a time. They're going from bar to bar. They're not sleeping, they're not doing anything. This is a time to celebrate. And it's at Jack's Bar during this entire gala. So after the gala and Hockey Canada's organized events, the guys decide that they're gonna go out to the bars and just get wasted. The next day, all they have is a golf tournament. So a lot of them, you know, they brought their golf clubs and that's in the hotel room. This is important later. But they're just gonna go to Jack's Bar, get completely wasted. They're probably gonna go out there and tell every girl at the bar that they just won the world championship for ice hockey. I another little piece of context. Maybe in America, if you're not from the colder states, if you're like from the south or California, you're like, why would I care if some dude comes up to me and is like, I just won the world championship for ice hockey. Right? Ice hockey in Canada, that is their sport. That's like the NFL, the NBA for us. It's huge. It's major. And so they're probably doing all of that. And that is where Em is. Em works in retail. She's 20 years old and after her shift, all of her co workers are like, we should go to the bar. We should go to this place called Jack's Bar and just get drunk and have fun. It'll be good. Em goes home, she gets ready and she drinks some seltzers. Hard seltzers. Like a white claw. I don't think it was specifically white claw, but hard seltzers. She gets ready Ubers to the bar and she is talking to one of her co workers that she is just now kind of becoming friends with. They're not really super friendly. Like they're not coworker best friends in the sense of they're telling each other everything. It's still awkward. She still feels a little bit uncomfortable. So she's just trying to get drunk at the bar because it makes her socially a little bit more open. And as she's drinking, she says this old guy approaches her. It's very vague. I think that he was just a little bit older. I don't think she's talking about like a 60 year old man telling her, hey, you should talk to this guy over here. His name is Michael. Michael McLeod. He just won the world championship for the Junior League Ice hockey. World championship. Like, the world. He's just a really good guy. Like, just make sure you take care of him. And she says, I think that this guy was just trying to make Mikey sound like a really good person and make it seem like it was someone I felt like I should pursue that night. I don't know, like, made it seem like Mikey was someone that you wanted to be around.

[Host]

Is Mikey the leader again, or. No?

[Co-host]

No, that's Dylan Dubay. Yeah. So Dylan Dube is the leader. And I know the names get confusing, but we're gonna run down them. But just think, like, it's even more confusing because they are the only five accused. However, there was allegedly anywhere between 10 to 16 players in that hotel room that night, many of whom testify, many of whom were involved in a group chat. That becomes very important later. But it's just complicated. So I think as we progress in the episode, you're just gonna realize who is who, because it's just hard to. I mean, they're just.

[Host]

I see, you know?

[Co-host]

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That's betterhelp.com ratin and so she keeps drinking with Mikey and she is picking up a few things, okay, World championship junior league ice hockey players. She's kind of assuming that all these other dudes are ice hockey players. She doesn't seem like she's very into ice hockey. She doesn't really care that much. So she's just like, okay, cool. You guys seem like nice people. She keeps drinking and she says, I definitely feel like my inhibitions were lowered the more I drank. I mean, mentally, I just felt all over the place. The dance floor and the music was very loud. It was just very crowded and very chaotic. And I just kind of felt like I was in the mix of it all and I wasn't really feeling aware. In CCTV footage at the bar, you see a lot of the players on the dance floor all circling each other. It's not that they're specifically circling em, but they're all just gathered together getting crazy drunk. And it just looks like CCTV footage from any other bar. They're all smushed together. It's like if you go to a concert, everyone's jumping up and down screaming. Everybody is like touching each other because you physically don't have space to not touch each other. But at one point CCTV reflects that. One of the other players pulls on Em's ponytail. Whether it was hard, I'm not sure. This footage I couldn't find. But there is allegedly another footage of another player lifting her up off the floor. We don't know what that footage looks like, but she says that she started feeling really claustrophobic and overwhelmed. It just felt like she was getting smushed. I mean she's 5 4. She is like 130 pounds and these are 6ft tall, 200 pound hockey players. They're huge. She's getting overwhelmed. She's getting smushed by a bunch of guys on the dance floor. She remembers that some of the guys would move her hand towards their private areas over their pants. And she says, I did feel a little bit off again, but with just how drunk I was, I was trying not to think anything of it and I was just going along with it. It. There's a video that Michael McLoud, who is the main person that she's talking to. So she's introduced to Mikey. Michael McCloud. She's talking to Michael McCloud and he films a video of them singing Hotel, motel, Holiday. And it's just, it seems like a crazy party. It seems like a frat party. She says, I'm someone who has a bit of a hard time saying no. I don't like upsetting people and especially when I'm drunk. I think that really shows. I know if I hadn't been drunk or been in that position that that wouldn't have been something that I would have done. But I feel, I felt like it was the drinking. So she's saying, I don't even think that I would have been on the dance floor just with all these hockey players. It was a lot. And then eventually Michael McCloud asks her, do you want to go back to my hotel with me and we can have intimate relations? So they're kind of under the impression that they're going to go back and engage in activities. Michael McLeod and Em. And she says, okay. There is a video of them leaving together. Her if you see a blurred spot in any of the videos that I'm going to play in the episode, the video episode, it's her, that's Em. And so they're leaving the bar together and when she's walking down the stairs, you kind of see her rest her hands on the wall. It doesn't seem like she's swaying and she's falling down but it seems like they're walking pretty fast, and she's almost caressing the wall, bracing herself. She goes to the Delta Hotel with Michael McCloud. They get a cab. They go to the hotel. They go to room 209, which is Michael McCloud's room that he shares with another player, Alex Formenton. Alex Formenton is. Is still at the bar. So they're alone in room 209, and they have intimate relations on the bed. And she says she's laying there on the bed fully nude. Her clothes are in the bathroom because she just had intimate relations with Michael McLeod. And she just remembers that right afterwards. He just, like, retreats and gets on his phone, and he's texting a bunch of people, which she thought was weird, but she's not really thinking into it because she's just tired. So she's just laying there for a second, trying to catch her breath. And then all of a sudden, the door to the hotel room opens and. And hockey players walk in. Like, two, three hockey players walk in, and she's completely nude on the bed. So she's shocked, but they're not saying anything. They're not addressing anything. Like, she's trying to read the room. Michael McLeod. Seems like nothing weird is happening. The hockey players are not like, oh, my gosh. Why are you naked? Oh, sorry. We should walk out. They just walk in and start talking about hockey. So she's like, okay, maybe they're gonna leave. She walks to the bathroom, and this is where her clothes are. And this is a very big point of contention later. She stays in the bathroom for a minute, and she says, I was just really shocked. And she's saying, I was still so drunk. Like, I'm drunk out of my mind. I'm shocked. I'm like, I don't even know if I'm seeing this. She said, I wasn't expecting that. I felt really uncomfortable. I was already naked, feeling very vulnerable. I didn't really understand why the man that I had left the bar was with just, like, left me in that situation. Like, he just, like, brought these guys in. I didn't know where things were going. She says she is in the bathroom, and then when she walks back out, she's still nude. I don't know if she's under the impression that these guys left. Maybe it got quiet. I don't know. But when she walks out, there's even more hockey players inside the room. And she says at this point, she didn't really know what to do. There's I mean this is not a suite. This is not NHL level money, this is not NBA level pro athlete money, yet these are junior hockey league players. This is a very standard hotel room with two twin beds or full beds, I think. I don't even think they're queen beds, but it just looks like a cramped little hotel room. And there's like 9, 200 pound, 6 foot tall ice hockey players crowding in that room. They're talking very loudly now and they're joking with each other. And she clearly they're all very familiar with each other. She has no idea who anybody is. She just met Michael McCloud tonight, like 20, 30 minutes ago. And she doesn't know why they're here. And they allegedly turn to her and they tell her get on the floor and start self pleasuring. She says they just like she was trying to passively say no without saying no. And this becomes a whole debate later. But, but we will get there. She says that she passively tries to say no by saying, well, the floor is very dirty and she claims that one of them threw a bed sheet onto the floor. And so now at this point she's drunk, she feels a lot of fear. She doesn't know what they're going to do if she says no. She doesn't know how they're going to react if she just like books it for the hallway. Also she's naked. So she gets onto the floor and she does what she is told, allegedly. And she says they just started putting penises in my face. Like I was being told to suck it commands like that. They were also yelling spit on it, spit on it. And then at one point I started feeling someone spitting on my back as well. I was just watching it all unfold. I didn't know these men at all. I didn't know how they would react if I tried to say no or tried to leave. My mind just kind of shut down and I let my body do what it thought it needed to do to keep me safe. I didn't know what was going to happen. And they just like kept putting penises on my face in that moment. She says at some point she turns to Michael, the guy that she came here with, Michael McLeod, and she states that he had gone downstairs to the lobby to grab food and now he's just laying on the bed, shirtless, eating food, watching all of this happen. So this is making her feel even more pressured, even more unsafe, even more fearful and uncomfortable. So she's just doing what they want. She says at this point she Performs oral sex on three of the different players. She says that while she's doing this, she's hearing people screaming at her. Other commands, like, second, spit on it. She feels someone spit on her back. She said that someone is slapping her butt very hard. At this point, Em says she just goes straight into autopilot mode. One thing that sticks out to her is she just keeps hearing one specific comment of, like, no phones. Put the phones away. And she remembers this because she started feeling panicked in that moment that someone was recording everything that was happening. Eventually, she somehow makes it onto the bed because Michael is one of the three guys that she performs oral sex on unwillingly. That she claims. Right? And she says this is what she remembers. As she's on the bed on all fours, doing what she does not want to do. Multiple people take turns trying to hit her on the butt as hard as possible. She describes it as almost like a competition, and it was really hurting. So she's telling them to stop. And then eventually, she ends up in the restroom with Alex Formenton, who is Michael McCloud's roommate. And she claims that she was raped by Alex Formenton in the bathroom, that he assaulted her and then forced her to perform oral. And then he took a shower. She goes back out into the room, and she is very uncomfortable. And she says throughout the night, she would try to keep getting up and putting her clothes back on to leave. Like, she would grab her clothes, and then one of the players would come over, and she alleges that they would put their arm around her shoulder and not necessarily drag her back into the room, but kind of like, guide her back around. And she was so drunk that it was just. She didn't really know what was going on. She didn't feel like she could say no. It felt threatening. It's not just like, are you sure you want to leave? It felt very threatening, saying things like, come on, we're just having fun. She claims, I was stuck in that room. I didn't really have a clear exit. Even if I wanted to leave, I felt like I was just there for their entertainment. She says that she starts feeling sick, wanting to throw up at one point. She does remember near the end of the night, she was just sobbing, like she was just crying. And then she tried to leave while she was crying. And she recalls one of the guys saying, one of the players saying, don't let her leave. She's crying. Don't let her leave. She's crying and the whole night. I mean, the problem is because of her intoxication level. She says there are gaps in her, in her memory. But additionally, it's even rougher because when you are an essay victim, there are naturally gaps in the memory because that's just how your brain works. It doesn't matter if you're a 20 year old girl or a 50 year old man or whoever. Your brain tries to protect you by blocking out memories that they think are going to be so traumatizing that you cannot survive or it will be too traumatic for you to understand them. And so she's saying there's a bunch of gaps in her memory, but she does remember near the end of the night that she was crying and they would try to stop her and say, like, oh, don't let her go, she's crying. And at that point she also remembers, like, they were bringing up golf clubs, saying, why don't we try to stick one inside of her? There were comments about golf balls, of seeing how many she could fit inside of her. And she said that she was feeling very fearful of all of this. Like, the energy was intense and chaotic, but in a very scary way. So not in the I'm gonna tie someone down and forcibly r word them. But like, you can imagine the type of energy she's alleging was happening inside that hotel room. Eventually, she states that Michael McCloud tells everyone to get out of the room. All the other players, except for Michael McLeod and his roommate, Alex Formenton, who is one of the accused that went to the bathroom with her. So Alex went to the bathroom with her. She says that they end up staying, and Michael McCloud goes into the bathroom, and she understood that in order to leave, she was to have intimate relations with him a second time. So the first time that she has intimate relations with Michael McCloud, she says is consensual. But then the second time in that bathroom, she says it was not consensual. So they have intimate relations. And Then afterwards, Michael McCloud and Alex Formenton straight up just tell her, like, we have a golf tournament tomorrow, so are you gonna leave? She gets dressed, she leaves, and down the hallway she realizes that she left her ring in the room. So she knocks on the door to grab her ring and she says the players look really annoyed. Michael McLeod and Alex Formenton look super pissed off about it. She looks for 15 minutes and she says that she feels really silly about this whole thing. And this word is very important for later. She says that she just felt silly, so she just left. And as she's leaving she's bursting into tears. And that night she's in the bathroom in the bathtub, just sobbing, swaying back, back and forth, like swaying, comforting herself, soothing herself. Her mom walks in and it's like, you need to tell me what happened. Happened. June 19, 2018, London Ontario Police get a call from M's mom who states along the lines of, you know my daughter. She's not telling me what's happened. She's just saying it's all my fault. She keeps, I found her in the shower incredibly distraught. I know, like mother's instinct. I know something happened and I know that she did not want this to happen, but she keeps repeating, it's not my fault, it's not my fault, but I know something bad has happened. Like, you have to investigate gate. Em's mom's boyfriend at the time had a friend that works for Hockey Canada. So he calls Hockey Canada because they're getting little bits and information from Em now. So she's like, okay, yes, I went to this hotel room with this hockey player named Michael McCloud and then all of a sudden his teammates came in. So he calls Hockey Canada and is like, hey, this is what happened to my girlfriend's daughter. Like, you guys need to investigate. So now in 2018, there are two investigations open. London police investigation into a gang essay and the Hockey Canada investigation into the code of cond against their players. And for both, the guys are briefly interviewed in 2018. None of these interviews are extensive at all. Michael McLeod just tells the police, the main detective for the London Police Department. I mean, she was the one that told me she was all like, tell your teammates to come, I want to do stuff with them too. It's a fantasy of mine. He said, she was just asking for a lot of crazy things. If it were up to her, she would have had sex with the whole team. Wouldn't be surprised if she asked guys to slap her ass. But I didn't hear it, but I wouldn't be surprised. Which is a very suspicious thing to say because I guess a lot of netizens online, which I tend to agree with, they're just saying like, maybe in X rated movies, maybe in some dark romance novels, but like never really in real life. Not saying it doesn't happen, but it's like a very, very big accusation that would need a lot of factual evidence to back it up. Right?

[Host]

You're saying the cop hearing that makes sense. Makes sense, yeah.

[Co-host]

The cop is like, okay, well it's a little weird, but you showed me these two videos.

[Host]

You show me these two videos.

[Co-host]

Michael McCloud is like, sir, I have these two videos I need to show you. The first video is filmed at 3:25am 6 seconds long from inside the hotel room. Room. You can hear a few guys talking in the background. And then you hear someone asking M. Hey, you're okay with this, though, right? M responds, yes. Yeah, you're okay with this? Em wipes her eye with the back of her hand. Now, we don't see these videos, but it doesn't appear that she's crying, but she does wipe her eye with the back of her hand. Yeah, I'm okay with this. It is reported that she is smiling in that video. Video. Then there's a second video that's 12 seconds long from 4:26am it shows Em standing, holding a white towel over her body. So this appears to be around the time that she has intimate relations with Michael McLeod that she alleges was non consensual in the bathroom. And I think afterwards, yes, after. At the very end of the night. And it appears that she's unclothed behind the towel. And you hear Michael in the back saying, say it. M smiles, looks at the camera and says, okay, it was all consensual. Are you recording me? Yeah. Okay, good. It was all consensual. What else would you. You're so paranoid. Holy. I enjoyed it. It was fine. It was all consensual. I am so sober. That's why I can't do this right now.

[Host]

That's why I can't do this right now.

[Co-host]

Saying, like, I can't really record this video right now, perhaps, I think is maybe what a lot of people thought she was saying. And Michael shows these two videos to both the investigation.

[Host]

Is it really consensual when you're in a position like that? Is that like the getaway ticket for any crime if you put someone in that kind of position and force them to say, not force, like, you know what I mean? Like, does context matter? Or is that the wording is the only thing you need for consent? Right.

[Co-host]

That is why this case is probably one of the most contentious cases right now. There are. I mean, people have picked a side, and the people. The side that you pick, you're not getting convinced to go to the other side. Even these consent videos, both sides, which are, she's lying or she's telling the truth, they will. They think the videos benefit their argument more. The existence of these videos, and we're gonna break it down of why people think certain things and the Whole case is so contentious. But Michael is showing these videos to the police officers and he's saying, well, I filmed these consent videos because I was worried that something exactly like this would happen.

[Host]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Co-host]

So, you know, I'm just saying, like, I took these videos because it was such a crazy situation. Like, we've never had a girl that was like, I want to sleep with the whole team. So I didn't want anything like this to happen. So I recorded these two videos. This is in 2018, this whole case, nobody finds out about it for four years. It gets buried until 2022, then it goes public, and then the police decide we're going to go to trial. And so it feels like for since 2018 to 2025, they have been trying to bury this. That's just what Canadian netizens feel like. Okay, so by the time that the trial comes around, protesters are standing outside with signs that read, believe survivors. Justice for Survivors. I will say that the five accused players, every time that they walk into the courtroom with their attorneys, they just look very smug. And I think that's a personal opinion of mine, that a lot of netizens, I don't know if I don't know what it is, they just look like, they look smug. People are thinking, though, this is a slam dunk case. Since 2022, when this specific case became public, it triggered a bunch of other Hockey Canada essay cases to get a lot of attention, to get coverage. And people are pissed off. People are pissed off at Hockey Canada and they want ice hockey culture to shift. They want society to change. They want the justice system to reflect that. This is slam dunk case. Like this is. Everyone is on the side of M. That's just what it is. Especially when the arrest originally happened before the whole trial.

[Host]

When the arrest happened 2022, 2025.

[Co-host]

Well, 2024, but the trial starts 2025. Okay, but they weren't like, in jail. Yeah, okay. Everyone's like, this is a slam dunk case. And for months, I mean, the trial is just crazy. They let go of two different jury pools and then finally it's the judge only, and the judge is a woman. She finally comes out with the verdict a few months ago. And it takes five hours for her to run through the verdict. She saw the victim testify for nine days straight. She heard from all the witnesses and she states in her verdict, people react differently to events. There is no correct or standard way for a complainant to react to a sexual assault. She cites another case, though. I'm mindful of the words. Although the slogan believe the victim has become popularized of late, it has no place in a criminal trial. To approach a trial with the assumption that the complainant is telling the truth is the equivalent of imposing a presumption of guilt on the person accused of sexual assault and then placing a burden on him to prove his innocence. So at this point, people are feeling a little bit uneasy about what the verdict is going to be. The judge points to multiple things throughout this, and she says, I mean, it's clear that the public wanted a specific verdict, so she is dotting her I's crossing her T's. She points to this one video CCTV footage at the bar. She says, the complaint states, she was so drunk, Em testified that she was so drunk that she could not consent. And the player should have known that. Like, she knows that for a fact. However, the judge is like, look at this CCTV footage of her at the bar. At one point, she's leaning onto the bar and the complainant testified, M testified it's because she was so drunk that she had to catch her footing. But if you watch further in the CCTV footage, it's her leaning over to tell the bartender that he shorted her on the chain. So she's saying, like, if you're that drunk, could you really know that you were shorted on the change? She tried to make it seem like she was so drunk she was leaning on the table because she was drunk, but she was actually trying to get her money back. Ultimately, the judge states, at this point, she chose, and she's talking about the victim in this. She chose to walk into a room full of men while naked. No one directed her to do this, nor did anyone prevent her from going back into the bathroom and then putting her clothes in on. No one threatened her or applied any force to her. She made no effort to leave the room. Up until this point, there had been no sexual contact with anyone other than consensually with Mr. McLeod. The complainant provided no satisfactory answer as to why she chose to do this. This is a huge point of the judge's argument on why she doesn't really like M's story. She's saying to me, it doesn't make sense because you're saying that you are unclothed in the bed after having consensual relations with Michael McLean Cloud. You're unclothed on the bed. Then these hockey players walk in, you're shocked, you're surprised, you run to the bathroom. The bathroom is where her clothes are. So then she's saying, why didn't you just put on your clothes then in the bathroom? But instead you walk out of the bathroom unclothed, and then you see more hockey players. And at that point, you could go back into the bathroom and put your clothes on. Or because the bathroom door is right next to the hotel door, it would have been easier for you to, like, put on your clothes and then run out the door. Like, there's a lot of different ways in which you could have left. This is what the judge is saying. A lot of netizens and a lot of advocates think this is absolutely insane because they're saying, we thought we are past the time where we are asking victims, why didn't you leave? Because it doesn't really matter. Like, leaving or not leaving does not have anything to do with consent. Like, it's not. They're not tied together. It's actually an essay myth that you should leave because you didn't consent to it, because there's a reason you didn't consent to it. You might have been scared, so you could be scared to leave, leave. But the judge continues, and these are the reasons that she decides that all five pro ice hockey players are going to be acquitted of all charges. This is not the result that anybody was expecting. For years, this case has been amping up and up. There's protesters outside the entire time with two jury, two juror panels being dismissed. Everyone thought with a female judge, this is like a slam dunk case. Nobody likes the accused. Nobody cares about them, really. They were like, this sounds crazy. This has been around. This story sounds insane. Like the consent videos itself make them sound so guilty. And then the way that she testified, everybody thought it was slam dunk, but it wasn't. She says they're not guilty. And courtroom reporters state that. You could hear someone saying, yes, one of the players, dad and a separate player's mom are hugging, embracing. And everybody is confused on why the judge seems to hate the victim. She literally states early on in her verdict, I do not find the evidence of M to be either credible or reliable with respect to the charges before the court. Having found that I cannot rely upon the evidence of M. And then considering the evidence in this trial as a whole, I conclude that the crown cannot meet its onus on any of the counts before me. Me, people thought, I mean, there's got to be something that we're missing in all of the court dates, like in the trial dates. There's got to be stuff that the judge heard that we did not hear. The judge in her 91 page verdict goes on to talk about how the victim, the alleged victim, she was laying in bed and at one point, Michael McCloud, the man that she came to the hotel with, that she had consensual relations with. Initially, he asks him, his teammates, hey, do you want oral sex from this girl in front of her? The judge is like, she has no reaction. She doesn't freak out, she doesn't say no. So that could be. I mean, like, she has no signal of enthusiasm either, but it's just like the most neutral. She has no reaction to it. Which almost means. Is that like implied consent, which is not legally a thing, but, you know, is that what it is? That's one of the factors that the judge likely takes into consideration for this verdict. And it seems like everyone, including the judge, just ignores the fact that the victim was on the stand. And she testified that, yes, she heard that question. She heard Michael McCloud asking his teammates, hey, do you want a gummer from her? In the junior hockey bible, there is a definition that reads, talk to my mic. Chew gummer, bj, head, weddy, sloppy. Use this saying when you want a broad to give you head. The victim testifies. He said, do you want a gummer from her? I don't know what a gummer is. Oh, she had no reaction because she doesn't know what a gummer is.

[Host]

And the judge is like, you heard.

[Co-host]

Him say that and you had no reaction? Why didn't you say no? At this point, I was on the same wavelength as a lot of netizens of. I mean, not that it would make it any better, but maybe these athletes are some of the best in the ice hockey league and there is so much privilege and money surrounding them that the NHL is like, no, we need these guys on the ice asap. So we're just gonna get a acquittal. We're gonna get a not guilty verdict. And I thought it was gonna be something like that. I started looking into these five guys. Guys, if you're going to make it to the top of ice hockey, you've got seven good years in you. At the top, I mean, you're probably practicing your whole life, but at the top seven years. The top 25% of players will make it maybe 12 years. That's their profitable career. The bottom 75%, maybe only two years. It's not even that you age out, but ice hockey is one of the most dangerous. Contact sports injuries are a huge problem. Concussions, knee injuries, chronic conditions, shoulder injuries. The NHL is like it's such a dangerous sport. The NHL is the biggest league of them all. It consists of 32 teams. 25 are based in the U.S. 7 are Canadian.

[Host]

Oh, wow.

[Co-host]

But I will say it is a Canadian sport. Almost half of the NHL players are all Canadians that move to the American teams when they get scouted. The average NHL pro earner earns about $5.3 million in contracts for the ent entirety of their career. Which compared to other sports leagues, like, compared to the world, it's incredible money. Compared to other sports leagues, it doesn't feel like the Most insane salaries.

[Host]

5.2 million in their entire career. Like the career, like you said, it could be like seven years or a few years.

[Co-host]

Yeah, but that, that is the average. A lot of hockey players say they don't even really do it for the money. They say they do it for the Stanley Cup. It's like they're super. They just want their names etched into the Stanley Cup. And I will say 5 million is the average. But some of the top players, they make 17 million a year. Some of them have made like 161 million total in their career. Which even then, I guess it's not comparable to the NFL or the NBA. But I mean, these guys, this is one of the most physically dangerous team sports. You're mixing extreme speed on the ice ice. You're going like 20, 30 miles per hour in that little ice rink and you are allowed to have full body collisions. Heavy equipment gets weaponized. The surface of the environment is just like rock solid ice in terms of just colliding with fellow players. Ice hockey is typically even more dangerous than football. American football, which we know CTE is like a big problem. But for ice hockey, if these two guys collide into each other, they fall onto the ice. Football players at least get some give with the grass or the turf. It's a lot more forgiving. It's a little bit more cushy solid ice. The head to ice collision is probably some of the worst recorded in sports history. The impact of it, it's bad. I mean, to give you a visual, it's like if you were to jump off of your diving board at home, if you have one, and belly flop into the pool water, it's going to hurt. And I say at home because like, you know, don't picture like the Olympic diving pool. It's going to hurt, but the water is going to give you a little give. That's like turf, that's grass. But imagine you're just doing it to straight concrete that's what ice hockey feels like. You're lucky if you don't end up with a concussion, then you know the boards surrounding the entire rink. That keeps the spectators safe in the stands. It keeps the pucks from going outside the ring. I don't know why I thought it was kind of like an ice skating rink, a recreational ice skating rink where you can slam into it to break and you'll be okay. These are considered passive weapons in the ice rink. They're just made of wood and glass.

[Host]

Wood and glass.

[Co-host]

It's wood and glass, and it's like really thick, unforgiving material. It's not soft. It's not cushiony. There's no give, there's no softness to it. When you hit into it, slam into it. If you get slammed into the boards by another player, you have the violent force from one side of the player and then the opposite side. You hit this just rock solid board. It's like double impact impact on both sides, creating the perfect synergy for shoulder dislocations, clavicle fractures, pelvic injuries, and ultimately concussions. Even the puck that they use, the little rubber, it's like a vulcanized rubber. It's like 6 ounces, which sounds like it's not that bad, but the speed at which it goes on the ice, it's flying around at 100 miles per hour. Just getting hit by the puck, you can suffer lacerations, fractures, dental injuries. Even the hockey sticks are just giant worms, weapons, just giant mean sticks. If you're smacking someone, you could break someone's finger. You could hit someone on the shoulder, and they could dislocate their shoulder. Probably the most dangerous are the skates. They're razor sharp. They can easily slice through protective equipment, clothes, skin, flesh. They're the world's scariest razor blades, and they're really thin. They're about the width of about two credit cards stacked together. So it's a very dangerous sport. And not a lot of people make it to the NHL, but a lot of the accused did. The holidays are almost here, and I'm honestly very excited, but also a little panicky. There's just so much to think about when you're getting ready to host family and friends. But here's the good news. As the holidays approach, you can get everything you need to personalize your home with Wayfair. Seriously, they have holiday decor for every single room in the house. Whether you're looking for the perfect Christmas tree or beautiful room, wreaths for your doors, or even those fun inflatables for the front yard that my nieces are obsessed with. Wayfair is your one stop shop for all of it. I often have family staying over and I like to keep the guest room ready and on theme so they feel very they feel very homey. On Wayfair you can get cozy bedding, fresh linen, stylish throw pillows, and accent chairs that look expensive but cost way less than you think. I recently ordered this gorgeous velvet ottoman. I will say the living room was just needing extra seating that didn't look like extra seating and it fits perfectly and that everything is delivered so hassle free. Get organized, refreshed and ready for the holidays. For way less head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W a Y F A I R.com Wayfair Every style, every home. I don't know what it is, but as soon as October hits I just have to stop myself from turning into a completely different person. Suddenly I am buying cinnamon flavored everything. I think that I can brew my own apple cider cider. I just see so many tiktoks of people who can cook everything from scratch. Everything looks so good it makes me want to bake more until I go into the kitchen and I realize that our flour is almost a decade old and has not seen the light of day because it has been shoved into the back of the pantry probably since two Octobers ago. Thankfully, Instacart has your back. Whether you're buying just a few ingredients to complete a recipe or doing your weekly grocery haul and household essentials resources, delivery through Instacart has got your back. I needed just a few ingredients for a failed baking recipe and my shopper was efficient, communicative, and delivered right on schedule. Oftentimes you can get your items in as fast as 30 minutes. All I had to do was pick up the phone, select what I wanted in the app, and let Instacart take care of the rest. Download the Instacart app and use code Rotten Mango20 to get $20 off your first order of $80 or more. That's code Rotten Mango 20 to get $20 off your first Order of $80 or more. More offer valid for a limited time, excludes restaurants. Additional terms apply. Who can you trust to watch your children? 20th Century Studios presents a Hulu original, the Hand that Rocks the Cradle. Upscale suburban mom Caitlin hires a new nanny, Polly, only to slowly uncover she harbors deadly secrets and nefarious intentions. Micah Munro and Mary Elizabeth Winstead star in this psychological Thriller A Hulu original. The Hand that Rocks the Cradle now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney. For bundle subscribers, Bears terms apply. Michael McLeod this is the one that Em goes to the hotel room with. He is known as one of the fastest skaters of the 2016 draft class. I will say he's good. People say that he's a very natural leader and he was with the New Jersey Devils for a very long time in 2016. Michael McCloud is ranked the 13 in the North American skater category. A lot of sports commentators state that he was one of the most polarizing picks in the NHL during that year.

[Host]

There's a why is it polarizing?

[Co-host]

He is high risk, high reward or high risk, no reward. He could place in the top 10 if drafted. He could place in the top 20 if drafted. He's big, he's skilled, he's fast. That's how people describe him. I tried to look into his career highlights as and don't get me wrong, I think a normal person has a lot more control and finesse over their physical body with more stamina and discipline than I do with my body. So this is not me trying to like downplay any of anyone's capabilities on the ice or their ability to play sports that I could never even dream of playing. I don't think that would even serve any purpose. But as somebody who doesn't know ice hockey, I'm just telling you what I saw. Looking for career highlights, highlights. I found a few compilation videos of him scoring goals. And I don't know if it's the recent trial in the algorithm. I interestingly only got videos of him getting into full on fist fights on the ice. There's a video of him slip sliding through the ice trying to deck this Braden Schneider, another opposing team member, in the face. If you're watching the video episode, he is the one wearing red. They're just punching each other on the ice. Punching each other. They're literally punching each other's helmets off. The referees are just standing off to the side watching. They're almost skating around them, which I thought was so strange and I had to look into it. It's a thing in ice hockey. I had to look it up because technically sports you are under the belief that you are not allowed any sort of physical altercations outside of the parameters of the game. Like football, you can tackle people but you can't punch them in the face.

[Host]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Co-host]

That would result in.

[Host]

You were so confused about this, right?

[Co-host]

I was so confused. That results in immediate Penalty. So I'm like, oh, my gosh. Like, this was his career highlight. He got into a fight and then he probably got suspended for a little bit. You're allowed to fist fight. The NHL says that it was a regulated fisticuff. A regulated physical assault is.

[Host]

Okay, what is going on? What does that mean?

[Co-host]

Players will receive a five minute penalty instead of being ejected from the game. So a lot of other sports, sports, you gotta sit out the rest of the game, maybe even the next game, and then you gotta pay a huge fine. But both players, if they're in a fistfight, they both have to sit out five minutes.

[Host]

But okay, but why do they let them fight? Is what I'm confused about.

[Co-host]

There's a lot of history to it. Oh, and that hits. There has been a lot of recent pushback in the ice hockey world to limit the amount of fighting. And there has been lesser physical fights on the ice. But it seems like now the main thing is it's tradition is one. And the second thing is it's a moneymaker. A lot of people love ice hockey because of how it almost feels like drama, it feels like theater.

[Host]

But, like, isn't that anti sportsmanship?

[Co-host]

They say it's actually pro sportsmanship. That's what a lot of ice hockey.

[Host]

Players will fist fight is.

[Co-host]

Yeah, that's what a lot of ice hockey players will argue. And I'm not saying one way or the other. I've never been in a fist fight in my life and I don't even know how to ice skate. So I'm just saying I don't know.

[Host]

But they say, yeah, can somebody explain? Because Stephanie was showing me some clip and. And it's really confusing. You're playing hockey and then all of a sudden it's a boxing match.

[Co-host]

I'm going to get into why they think it's sportsmanship. Okay, okay, so there is like an explanation. It's not just like a bland, like, oh, yeah, it's sportsmanship. There are a lot of rules. Like you can't be a third wheel in a fist fight. So these fights are regulated. The referees, when they're circling the two fighters, they're actually making sure that no one's getting jumped. Nobody else is joining the fist fight. It has to be just two opponents. Opponents fighting each other, fist fighting. And then the referees are making sure that they're not slipping on anything to land on the ice. They're moving things out of the way. That could be hazardous. And then the referees decide when they want to break up the fight.

[Host]

Okay.

[Co-host]

So sometimes they just, like, let it happen and they're just watching, and then I'm just watching them watching, and it's a mess. There are a lot of rules, though. Apparently, if two people are fighting, you cannot jump in. You also can't fight too many players in one game. Like, you can't just be starting fist fights all game. You also have to fight someone your own size. So let's say someone that is on the opposite team from me and they're much smaller than me, but they do something that pisses me off, and I'm like, I'm going to fight her. I can't fight her. I would have to actually fight another teammate that's more on par with my size. You can't target star players for the sake of targeting star players. So typically you're fighting someone that you think, did you dirty on the ice just now? Now you can't just say, one of your teammates did me dirty. So I'm going to find the best player on your team and just start fist fighting them. Goalkeepers, goaltenders, are oddly off limits unless they are the ones to initiate the fight. I think the fight has to be understandable is what I was gathering, AKA oh, if he did that to me on the ice, I would probably punch him too. Like, that's supposed to be how the referees feel.

[Host]

Okay.

[Co-host]

And the gloves need to come off before you throw punch. Yes. That's how you fight in hockey because the padding on the gloves can actually cause more damage, and it's like giant padded gloves. So you don't. You got to take them off, which is a really interesting aspect of a very fascinating game. If you want to fight someone, the gloves come off so quick, you throw your gloves off and that. That means I want to fight you. These are the rules.

[Host]

How often does it happen? It seems like it's not like every game, right?

[Co-host]

No. I think Michael McLeod, in his entire NHL career, has only gotten into like over a dozen fight fights, and they say he's actually not a big fighter. So over a dozen.

[Host]

Okay, okay, I see, I see. So it's like not every day you're fighting, you're boxing someone, you're okay.

[Co-host]

Like two or three a year, two a season. Okay, don't quote me on it. Just from the Michael McLoud statistics, right? These are the rules. It's very weird. And the players are just skating on the ice. A lot of netizens comments, Are they fighting or are they dancing with each other? We don't know. And they're just decking each other in the face. Even the announcer, you can hear them saying, spirited fight. Spirited fight. It was a fair fight. Good one. And I just. I'm so confused. And then both of the teams get a five minute penalty. And there are a lot of unspoken rules. Everybody in ice hockey hates a turtle. That's what they call them. It is when one opponent wants to fight and the targeted player just wants the other team to get the five minute penalty. So they drop to the ice, cover their heads like a little turtle. So they. It's almost like you instigate someone to punch you and then you turtle so that only one team gets the five minute penalty.

[Host]

I mean, that's smart. I can see the strategy behind that, right?

[Co-host]

Yes. But they say that even your teammates will lose respect for you.

[Host]

What?

[Co-host]

Yeah, I guess in the moment, the instigator thinks that you're gonna fight back, so you're luring them. And it's just. They say that you have to own up to any fist fights that are about to happen. The turtle, they don't like it. The stands, they love the turtle move. The viewers, they love it. They think it's hilarious. But the hockey players, they hate it. They also state that there is a reason that the instigators started the fight, and it's probably because you laid a dirty hit. You cheap shotted them, so now they're pissed, and now you got to get punched. They say you have to answer for it. The only time that turtling can be accepted by another player is if you are a much smaller person than the player trying to instigate a fight with you.

[Host]

You.

[Co-host]

That would be the only time that people are okay with you turtling. Because that is being smart. That is saying, hey, I'm not just gonna get beat up. To just get beat up. That's crazy.

[Host]

Very nuanced, this.

[Co-host]

And I will say I use a lot of male centric language for this episode with ice hockey, even though there's a huge women's league for ice hockey. Mainly because fighting in women's ice hockey is very rare. It's not nearly as common as men's ice hockey. And also, every ice hockey player in today's case is a man. And I don't think, like, the women's league wants to associate with this case anyway.

[Host]

So wait, so you're saying women's league also, There are fist fights too?

[Co-host]

Yes, but very, very rare.

[Host]

That's. See, that's interesting. Wow.

[Co-host]

One hockey player says there was this one particular notorious Fight where I guess one player just keeps injuring the other team with dangerous hits. The reason that they say that it's sportsmanship is because ice hockey is a high contact sport and you're allowed to bump into each other. You're allowed to technically do a lot of things with the puck and your ice hockey stick and then say that it was a mistake or say that it was an accident. And the chances of injuring an opponent is really high. And so they're saying if you're trying to play dirty, you're probably not going to because you're about to get beat up. It's an incentive for you to not play dangerously and risk the other teammates from getting injured. So for example, like the biggest. No, no in ice hockey is to check someone from the back when they're close to a board. So like you can check someone you. It's kind of like a football, I guess you can check them to the side, but when you're behind them, it's highly inappropriate to purposefully check them forward. So they bang their head on the board. Because once you get a concussion, you're out for potentially a whole season.

[Host]

I mean, that's why there's referees, right?

[Co-host]

Yeah, but I guess like a five minute penalty, maybe it's not enough incentive. They're saying, I guess they're saying the biggest incentive of not injuring other people is. No, that you could also be injured in a fist fight. So it's not like, oh, I'm going to injure you. You're going to be out the whole season and all we get is a penalty. It's I'm going to injure you, but also you might injure me back. I guess that's how they argue. A lot of people disagree with it. A lot of people say that fighting in ice hockey should be banned. I'm not an ice hockey fan, so I have no skin in the game, but you let me know. And people are saying that this is, this is the whole point. This is fighting is necessary to keep everybody safe. And it was to the point where back then in the NHL they would actually hire enforcers for the team. They would hire a bunch of star players and then the NHL, each team. So I guess the Vegas Golden Knights or whatever would also hire enforcers. They're not the best hockey players, but they're fist fighters. So they're on the ice just to moderate and see if they got a fist fight someone.

[Host]

So they're like, if you person A's playing dirt, the enforcer jumps in.

[Co-host]

Yes.

[Host]

Ready to Fight.

[Co-host]

The enforcer roles are no longer a thing in the NHL. However, some teammates do like fighting more than others and they will fight for their teammates. Yeah, some teammates don't fight. And then some teams, they're all under the same, I guess maybe written, unwritten rule that if you have two star players on the team, someone does something to them. Star player is not fighting. Somebody else is fighting for the star player.

[Host]

Interesting. Yeah, yeah.

[Co-host]

It's a very thin line of if you don't want to fight, you're weak, you're easily intimidated. If you fight too passionately, you're a felon. They say you lack judgment and game sense and you could also be charged for a crime. There is an art to the fist fighting. There is another clip of Michael McCloud and another player and they're just decking each other in the face mid game. Michael ends up getting slammed onto the ice on his back. Then he gets back up, they start fighting some more. And by fighting, I mean just like punching each other's helmets off. It's pretty bad. When you see Michael get up the second time, you see blood coming out of his nose. He's just getting slammed down onto the ice. And I mean, when I look at it statistically, he's not even someone that gets into a lot of fights. Like I said, I think it was like 19 fights in his entire pro career, which is not considered that frequent for an NHL player. One comment under a fight clip of Michael McCloud reads, I hate how they're breaking it up so soon these days. Talking about the officials. If we're going to get the five minute penalty, let them actually fight it out. There's another clip of Michael where one of his teammates gets thrown down by the other team. Like he. It almost seems like he gets slammed and he falls to his knees and his hands support him when he falls to the ice. I don't think that he made strong impact with his head on the ice, but I'm not entirely sure. Instantly you can see Michael in the corner. Gloves are off in like 0.2 seconds. I mean, these players, their reflexes are fast. Gloves are off. And I had to rewatch it multiple times to be like, when did he take off his gloves? It was so instant. Gloves are off. He skates to the person that he thought did his teammate dirty and just starts fist fighting him, punching his head in mid game, just.

[Host]

Was that guy ready to receive or.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Host]

And he's also fighting back.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Host]

How long did the fight last?

[Co-host]

Like a minute. This one Was particularly confusing for me because Michael was fighting another guy and then I think another guy was trying to fight another guy from Michael team. It was just.

[Host]

Oh, so you can do multiple fights going on at the same time.

[Co-host]

Yes. But you cannot have a group fight and you cannot jump someone.

[Host]

Only 1v1.

[Co-host]

Yes. It has to be a fair fight.

[Host]

Was it chaotic?

[Co-host]

It was so chaotic. And then at one point, I was watching another hockey clip where I was watching the goal. I'm like, I got to see if they get the goal in, like the puck and the goal. And then I just see like five people fighting in the back. And I'm like, what's happening right now?

[Host]

Oh, the game still goes on while they fighting?

[Co-host]

Yeah, I think they eventually stop and pause.

[Host]

Oh, but like, what? While it's happened so quickly, other people are still playing.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Host]

What?

[Co-host]

There's another one where Michael and another guy, both of their heads get slammed into the wall. They like bump into each other and both of them simultaneously bonk their heads into the barrier. And it was like a clean shot. That's what a lot of comments were saying. Like, this was a very clean, nobody up type of situation. It was just like everybody happened to be in the wrong place at once. But Michael's to going, gloves are off in a second.

[Host]

Fighting the guy.

[Co-host]

Yeah. And then they're just fighting.

[Host]

And I'm like, okay, okay, okay.

[Co-host]

And then in another one, it's titled, travis Sandheim drops the gloves with Michael McCloud in his first ever career fight. So it's just two of them decking each other in the face. And then the camera pans through all of Travis's teammates because this is his first ever career fight. And they're all banging their ass sticks on the barrier because they're like chanting like, first fight ever, basically.

[Host]

Interesting.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Host]

Fascinating sport.

[Co-host]

I mean, and I have so much respect for ice hockey, considering. Well, I don't know about the violence part. I just don't like watching physical violence, but I think it's very. You have to be very tenacious and agile to play. Like, I could never last. Michael stayed signed with the New Jersey Devils from 2016 to 2023. So he was there for a really long time. It's estimated that he made four posts, $61 million with the new Jersey Devils. He's actually still going strong with the Devils up until January of 2024. That is when he was granted an indefinite leave of absence because of this trial because he is the alleged ringleader of one of the biggest SA cases In ice hockey history of recent years there have been a lot more previously but in like the recent past few years it's alleged that he is the one that facilitates the entire SA for two hours long. So he's charged with not just the essay, but he's also charged with instigating it. Essentially then you have Alex Foimonton. He is also known as one of the fastest skaters. During his draft pick he ends up signing with the Ottawa Senators. He signed a three year contract for $2.2 million. That's about $750,000 a season. Then he goes on to sign with Switzerland, a Swiss based team until he takes a leave of absence for personal reasons. That being, he is also charged with essay against em. Alex Formenton is also charged with essay against M. He is the one that is accused of having allegedly r wording M in the bathroom. Carter Hart is probably one of the more successful of the 2018 junior group. He's estimated to have made around $14 million in his career thus far. He was originally signed with the Philadelphia Flyers and the last contract he signed with the Flyers it was a three year contract for $11.9 million. He's probably the most well known as well. They say that he has very strong mental training regimen. He says, I'd probably say about 90% of hockey is mental confidence is everything. Everything is between your ears. He's the goaltender, like the goalkeeper. He's worked intensely with a sports psychologist to make him an overall more mature player. About him previously, his mental game is in order. He's the type of kid who bounces back from a bad game. He has all the makings. This is what people said before all of this came to light. He is also charged with committing SA against em. He is being named as the one that allegedly made M perform oral on him in front of the other teammates. So he's one of the three players that received oral. Then you have Dylan Dube. He was the team captain at the time. After afterwards he gets signed with the Calgary Flames for three years. Coming in at a $2.3 million contract, about $770,000 a year. Then his second contract, he signs a three year deal for $6.9 million, making $2.3 million a year. It's estimated that he's probably made a good $10 million in his career so far until he gets arrested for essay against M. He is also accused as being one of the three that received oral from M and also for being the one that that was smacking her Callan Foote is the last one. They call him Cal Foot. He was one of the top picks in 2017, the draft. His first contract was nearly a million dollars a year for three years. Then he signs with Tampa Bay Lightning for $1.7 million for two years, which is 850,000 a year. Then to the New Jersey Devils, but that was cut short. He was making around $800,000 a year at the Devils, but he takes the indefinite league for being arrested for sa. Cal is the interesting one in this one that he was not one of the three that received oral. So the one of the three that received oral. Right. Is Michael McLeod, the original guy. And then you have Carter Hart, the goalkeeper. And then you have Dylan Dubay, the team captain. And then you have Alex Formenton, who is the roommate who is accused of full R wording her in the bathroom. And then Cal Foot is accused of. Of placing his genitals on her face without her consent by doing the splits. There's a whole argument in the trial of was he clothed, was he unclothed? People still cannot agree on if he had clothes on or not. And then people cannot agree if this is sexual assault or not. But it is alleged by the victim that he took off his pants, took off his underwear, and then did the splits on top of her face to touch his genitals and private areas on top of her face without her coverage consent, as. I guess they all say it was party trick. Yeah, that's exactly what they call it. They all say it's a party trick. That he just does splits as a party trick.

[Host]

Yeah. Then that's essay if you.

[Co-host]

Yeah, but they're saying that he was clothed. She's saying he wasn't clothed. And there's a whole debate. It gets really bad. And there's like a clip of him doing the splits. It's. It's a lot. Yeah, we're gonna get into it. So these are the five accused. And they're really. I mean, they're great ice hockey players, but I. I just. Their stories don't make sense. And. I don't know, nobody's story really makes sense. Okay. Like when Michael first goes to the police because he's called during the investigation, he tells them he has no idea why all of his teammates showed up to his room. Like they just kept showing up in the droves. Like about maybe 10 to 16 people are inside of his little hotel room. He doesn't know. He's not the team captain. He doesn't know. He thinks maybe they Knew that he had. They could just sense it. Maybe they could smell the food from the entire hotel, I don't know. And they could just like sniff it out. To be room 209, where Michael McCloud is, he states that maybe he did send a message to some of the guys stating that he had food. He says that he did briefly mention that there was a girl there, but that was it. But he lies. That whole thing is a lie.

[Host]

Did they pull the text?

[Co-host]

It is later discovered, years later, that he text all of his teammates in a group chat. Anyone want a threesome? Hurry, quick. 209, Mikey. No mention of food. Those are not the only group chats. June 26, 2018. 11 teammates are in a separate group chat. Dylan, wait.

[Host]

I'm so sorry. June what?

[Co-host]

June 26th. So this is like a week after. A week after they are getting word that she's gone to the police, that Hockey Canada is probably looking into it and start a new group chat. So Instead of the 19 players that are on their original team group chat, this is now 11 players. So these seem like the guys that maybe have an idea of what happened that night. They're in this separate group chat. And the team captain, Dylan Dubay, he starts the messages. There are no criminal charges. It's Hockey Canada code of conduct and they're investigating on what happened that night, so it won't happen again. Another teammate by the name of Jake responds, could we get in trouble for it or no? I don't think so. Michael McCloud responds, We all need to say the same thing if we get interviewed. Can't have different stories or make anything up. This is the thing with the group chats that people hate. The judge says, look at the group chats. Take them at face value. They're saying, we just have to tell the truth. Netizens are like, hey, are you dumb or are we dumb? Because literally it's all, we can't have different stories. We can't make it anything up. We all have to be on the same page. Just tell the truth. It's like you just throw in three words as insurance, as security. Just in case someone goes through these text messages. Another player, the same Jake guy. He responds, no, boys, like, we didn't need to make anything up. No one did anything wrong. We went to that room to eat. The girl came, which already. That timeline is not correct. Yeah, she wanted to have sex with all of us. No one did. She gave a few guys head and then we got out of the room when things got too Crazy.

[Host]

Just because of the timeline difference on this guy's statement, he's already lying. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like, you didn't go eat and then the girl show up. You already started the whole thing lying.

[Co-host]

But the most annoying thing about this case is I. I don't know if I am in a position to say whether or not I agree or disagree with the verdict. I think that legally speaking, it's very complicated because, well, first of all, I don't want to get sued. And then second of all, what we think is moral and what we think is the right verdict versus what is actually viable in a criminal justice system varies vastly. And that is a separate conversation because then we got to change the criminal justice system. But it's just they might not be aligned because there has to be no reasonable doubt. And the problem with a lot of essay cases is not everything is photographed and logged and evidenced. And a lot of people have trauma and they don't come forward right away or they have gaps in their memories, memory. But one thing I will say is this judge's verdict, what she talks about and what she points out is so infuriating. Like she's giving pick me. Because all of them, including the victim and all of the accused, have gaps in their memory. But when the guys have gaps in their memory, she says it's very reasonable because they were under the influence, they were intoxicated, and it's been a very long time since 2018. It's been, it's 2025 now. But when that applies to the victim, she's like, why is lying? You're lying, you're uncredible, you're not reliable.

[Host]

Oh, so that their mix up of timeline.

[Co-host]

She excuses by gaps of memory and the.

[Host]

Yeah, what's her name? Do you know her information?

[Co-host]

Yeah. I'm scared. But justice, Justice. Maria, she was a defense attorney for a very long time. I will say that I looked into it and she has a relatively like, she's very well respected. And then this verdict, everyone was like, what? Jake then texts again and Mikey literally has a video of her giving consent. Dylan Dube, the team leader, is very happy about that. Texting back. Okay, yeah, fuck. We are fine. The boys who did things got consent. So just tell them that and it's fine. Another guy by the name of Brett, he responds. All we have to say is someone brought the girl back to the room. We were all in there ordering food and then this girl started begging everyone to have sex with her. All we have to say is all we have to say is someone brought the girl back to the room. We were all in there ordering food, and then this girl started begging everyone to have sex with her. I'm just saying that's not how I would talk if that's exactly what happened. Yeah, nobody would do it. But then as time went on, she gave three guys head. Once things started to get out of hand, we all left and got her out. Jake texts back unsuspiciously, yeah, like boys. That's literally the truth. Truth. So Michael McCloud suddenly feels that he needs to share everything, saying, I did have sex with her before everyone came in. You guys know that part, right? Brett responds, she's the one who got naked and started begging everyone. Michael McCloud responds, yeah, what should I say if they ask why I took the videos, though? Jake text, you took the videos because you wanted to make sure nothing bad would happen and cover yourself. Dylan Dubay, the team leader, responds, let's not make her sound like, too crazy, because if she gets wind of this and then she can get even more angry and we don't need that. So just be good about it, but be with the truth with it. Another player named Maxime writes, the truth is we didn't do anything stupid. We had her consent. We didn't force her to do anything. Michael McCloud is saying, yeah, like, it wasn't her that went to the police. It was her mom. No idea why, but she already told me she told the police that she doesn't want to pursue this and it was a mistake. She also texted me saying sorry about all this and that she was in the wrong too. I have the those texts saved.

[Host]

Wait, who's texting who? The mom is Texting who.

[Co-host]

Michael McLeod ends up finding M's Instagram and DMing her to not pursue charges. We're gonna get into that. And he states, I've got text messages of her saying it was her mom that went to the police. And Carter Hart, the goaltender, probably the most successful one on the ice of the group. He responds, honestly, both boys, nobody did anything wrong. Like we got consent to anything that she did. She was the one begging for guys to bang her. Jake responds, two hours later, everyone stop talking in here and talk to your agents about this. And that's it. Or it could be attorneys, because they all do lawyer up. These group text messages are admitted into evidence. So is the original message of Michael McLeod asking all of his teammates if they want to participate in a threesome in room 209. Hurry. Quickly. That is also admitted into evidence. And then he goes on to privately text one of the other teammates. I guess, like his best friend. He privately texts, do you want a gummer? And that is admitted into evidence. And so by this point, I think these are a lot of the things that the netizens knew about before the trial takes place. And I think this is the reason why everyone's like, yeah, this is very suspicious. And I mean, it's not looking good for the accused. This is already very strange. Additionally, with the two consent videos are that that just feel like, why would you need those videos if you knew that she was actually consenting to it? It's just strange. It's just not normal behavior. However, there's a lot of other things that come up during the trial that make people start flip flopping. Like, there's a lot of bar footage that is entered into evidence where it shows that there are pretty distinct variations in a lot of people's timelines and their testimonies. So, for example, M would say that she was. Her hand was placed on people's private parts because she just felt very uncomfortable with all of that. When the bar footage is reviewed, she puts her hand on someone else's private parts, on Michael McCloud's private parts. He does not guide her. None of the other teammates guide her to do it. So there are these little discrepancies. And I was really intrigued because I wanted to get the full court transcripts because I was going through all of the press that were in the courtroom. I was going through all the articles, and I did get the verse verdict file that's available online. But I wanted to get the exact court transcripts of like, verbatim, one word for word, what everybody was saying. Because I remember with the Sean Combs case, a lot of things that were happening in the courtroom, they were not really reflected well in the headlines. It seemed like a lot of the defense attorneys would catch someone in a lie, but it was just like wording. It's not necessarily a lie. It's like they slipped up on one word usage and now they're digging, they're digging a hole into this word and they're like, why'd you use that word then? And it's just. You get why they did that. It's not that serious. But I thought that was what was the case for this. So we reached out to the court reporters that worked on this case, and we were calling a bunch of people. The whole team was super busy on this. And then we got word back because I'm like if I can just get the transcripts for this trial, we'll be good. Like we could just see exactly what happened. They are $11.25 a page. Each day is probably about 250 to 350 pa ages. We were probably looking at tens of thousands of dollars. Like the high tens of thousands of dollars each day was probably like $4,000. That has also been a huge conversation because victims will even have to pay for their own transcripts for their own case.

[Host]

Really?

[Co-host]

Yeah. So I, I did hear some people talking about that in forums that were talking about this case. We don't have the transcripts, but I do have very. We found some weird videos. So that will be discussed in part two, which I'm going to upload tomor video listeners. It's going to go up tomorrow. It's going to be very lengthy. There's a lot of different arguments in the courtroom. But just stay tuned and I will see you in the next one.

[Host]

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