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Karen Read’s First Exclusive Interview After MURDER ACQUITTAL - What REALLY Happened At 34 Fairview
01:19:11
It’s been about half a year since Karen Read was acquitted of second degree murderer in the death of her former boyfriend, Boston cop John O’Keefe. I thought it was time to answer the long awaited question, ‘hos long until she does an interview?’ These are just a FEW of the questions I asked Karen Read in her first exclusive interview after her acquittal... What do you think happened to John O’Keefe the night he died? What happened to the Alberts’ German shepherd Chloe? Did you feel like Aunty Bev (Judge Cannone) had a personal vendetta against you? And if you had to choose, who would you go to dinner with? Lullaby Lally or Spanky Hanky Brennan? Full show notes available at RottenMangoPodcast.com
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- [00:00]
Interviewer
This episode is presented by 20th Century Studios. Send help. From the twisted mind of Sam Raimi, director of the Evil Dead and Drag Me to hell, starring Rachel McAdams and Dylan O', Brien, comes a new film that begs the question, what would you do if you were stuck on an island with your terrible Boss in paradise? HR can't hear you scream. Only in theaters and 3D January 30th. Get tickets now. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, the name your price tool from Progressive. You can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it@progressive.com, progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Pricing coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states. Bada bing.
- [00:50]
Karen Reid
Bada boom.
- [00:51]
Interviewer
June 10, 2022, Karen Reed is charged with murder. She is accused of allegedly killing her Boston cop boyfriend, o'. Keefe.
- [01:01]
Court Official
Karen.
- [01:01]
Karen Reid
State police. We have a search warrant. I'm in my pajamas. I don't even have shoes on. I'm being charged with second degree murder now. That's correct.
- [01:12]
Court Official
You can step inside.
- [01:16]
Interviewer
She was accused of running him over, leaving him for dead in the snow outside of another Boston cop's house. Is that correct?
- [01:26]
Karen Reid
That's correct.
- [01:27]
Interviewer
For the past three years, Karen Reid has gone through a murder trial, a second murder trial, and finally, June 18, 2025, she is acquitted of murder. Is that correct?
- [01:39]
Karen Reid
That's correct.
- [01:40]
Interviewer
And this is her first formal sit down interview since the acquittal. Welcome to Rotten Mango, Karen.
- [01:48]
Karen Reid
Hi, Stephanie.
- [02:10]
Interviewer
You were facing life in prison.
- [02:12]
Karen Reid
Yes.
- [02:13]
Interviewer
June 18th, you get acquitted. What is that feeling? In a way that's comparable to something someone watching can understand?
- [02:22]
Karen Reid
It's probably the opposite of what someone watching would assume I felt. I am still not quite living in an acquittal world. I thought I would just bounce back like on a spring. It hasn't. It hasn't been. It hasn't been that way. I don't quite understand why. I'm trying to understand why I haven't felt more celebratory. And what I think is that I lived with some very singular emotions. Fright, anger and anxiety. It was very intense. Every waking hour, every hour, I thought about my freedom and if I could lose it. And those feelings just don't disappear. When a jury foreman says not guilty, I mean, there is, of course, relief. But I don't just wake up the next day and I'm living the life I lived five years ago. I felt my grief was being replaced with anger that was then driving this. This Adrenaline. And I woke up every day with a real purpose. And I was appreciative that I was free to pursue this purpose. And then all of a sudden, the purpose is gone, thankfully. But I. I don't have a routine to go back to. It's not there anymore. I don't have a job. I don't have a home anymore. And I. I'm just kind of in no man's land. And I still have moments every day, very brief, like a nanosecond, where I think of something. I need to tell Liza Little this for this witness, or if, God forbid, I'm never convicted. I need to make sure I tell my mother this. Or it's over, the feeling as soon as it starts. But there's definitely some synapses in my head that are still thinking, trial hasn't happened yet. It's like when you get ready for the holidays and then you think, wait a minute, did Christmas already happen? It was all this anticipation, and then it's over in a couple hours in your unwrap presence. And it feels like that. Like I have to ask myself, wait a minute, it's over, right? It happened. I don't need to worry about this anymore. But there's this big void in my body and in my mind that. And physically and what I was doing every day that I don't quite know how to fill. It's. I just feel like a fish out of water. It's weird.
- [05:21]
Interviewer
I mean, that is something I was going to ask. It's been like six plus months since the acquittal. Obviously you don't want to go back to trial, but every day you have to get dressed. You have a mission. There's urgency. Was there like a wave of emotions that hit you after the acquittal that maybe you were suppressing during the trial?
- [05:39]
Karen Reid
The acquittal feels like three years ago. When you say six months, it's like, oh, my God, has it only been six months? I already feel like it's been many seasons and many things since then. I've had such an amazing network of support, more than anyone could ever ask that could ever ask for in this circumstance. Emotionally, when I needed to let things out, I had people around me that I could lean on. It was more physically that I didn't have physical appetite. I didn't have the physical energy I had during trial. I. I've felt just kind of lackluster and just relaxed, but not this drive. Like, I feel like I've lost some of this drive, and it feels like it was Just a prolonged response to what the government did to me that I've had these endorphins pushing me, getting me out of bed, keeping me up, working on witness prep during trial and motions in between trials. And then it just shuts off. It was like this, the supply I had that never, never ended for four years and now it's, it's gone. So I feel physically I'm paying for it now. Like I, I've got to relearn how to get a regimen and how to source energy and, and drive every day. Maybe hopefully not ever like it needed to be before June 18, but some kind of even keel. I haven't found that yet.
- [07:24]
Interviewer
Do you like wake up in the morning ever, like, oh my God, I'm late to court and then it's like, okay, I don't have trial, like I'm free.
- [07:31]
Karen Reid
I think I would if I were living. I live with my parents most of the time, so I'm not in the environs that I was in during court. But if I, if I stayed at the Marriott in the Seaport, the Residence Inn, I may, I may feel that way. I do get those moments of something that I want, I want to tell one of the lawyers. I want to remember, like, oh, these two, these two dots connect. And then I realized, no, I, we don't need to know those dots connect anymore. We already addressed it. Thank God. I don't wake up thinking I've, I've got to get to court. I wake up very feeling very fortunate that I'm not court ordered to be anywhere anymore. It's, it's very, it's very frightening to know you are court ordered. This is not a job or school where you should be there. It's best that you're there, but no one's going to come arrest you if you don't go. And this is two trials plus 100 pre trial hearings that I am court ordered. It doesn't matter how I feel physically or mentally. I have to be there and I have to be there sharp because I'm a member of this team. So it's amazing waking up knowing no one is going to force me to be anywhere today.
- [08:46]
Interviewer
What did you do the first 24 hours though, after the acquittal? Like 24 hours.
- [08:51]
Karen Reid
What was that like the first 24 hours?
- [08:55]
Court Official
2. What say is the defendant at the bar? Not guilty or guilty?
- [08:59]
Karen Reid
Not guilty.
- [09:09]
Court Official
Taryn, what is life going to be like for you now?
- [09:13]
Karen Reid
I spent the whole ride back to the hotel. We were hearing from people at the Hotel that the press and the neighborhood were already starting to gather in the parking lot. The, the hotel we stayed at was like a boutique style residence in a very lovely neighborhood in Seaport of Boston called Fort Point. And the, the local businesses, the restaurants. There was a residential building just across the street from us. It was almost the size of an alley, a very narrow street. And coincidentally, when I was in my 20s, I lived in that building. When we came back from the hotel, we tried to lose the press a few times. And I think we ended up going in a side alley door to the hotel. But I went to my room, David's room was below me. And I looked across the. The alley and there were residents in the apartment building next door that had put congratulatory signs in their windows. Somebody put something with Yannetti's name. They must have known David because it was only. Well, I guess Alan was up in a corner as well. But it was a window directly. David was below me. It was right, right adjacent to David's room. But fkr or Congrats Yanetti. So there were people that we had met in the neighborhood that were congregating a restaurant nearby. I had orchestrated with them. I didn't make any plans until I was acquitted because it was. There's no way I was gonna, I was gonna set up any kind of dinner before I actually knew I was gonna need that dinner. So I called the restaurant in the Seaport. They gave us a private room. We had been there a few times during trial and they were amazing. No one knew we were there. And it was my immediate family, my cousins who I'm particularly close to, and my legal team and my local lawyers brought their families. And that was a very long three hour dinner. It was very, it was very overwhelming. I. My phone was blowing up. I wanted to decompress with my parents. I barely even got to speak to them. And the waiters coming over and asking if I wanted to do a la carte desserts. And I'm like, I just really want to go back to the hotel and lay on my bed. We were getting requests for Good Morning America and the Today show and People magazine. It was all rushing. It was just flooding in and I didn't like, I don't want to do any of this. I need a beat and I need to figure out how I'm going to tackle all the media. I was very, very overwhelmed. We all went back to the hotel, all the families. My parents came back. Obviously all the lawyers were still in town the following day. I think Liza might have been the first to leave. David was leaving. Bob was leaving. My parents left in the morning, and Alan and I said, I just want to have a day. He was leaving the second day, two days after the verdict. And we just walked around, went to our haunts that we ate at during trial. And it's like, we can finally. I'm going to walk in with Alan and have a meal that I've never had with him without this albatross around my neck. I've never eaten a meal or had a bowl of chowder with any of these people as a free woman. And I, um. It was a really sunny, warm day, and I ran into someone that I used to work with at Fidelity that I hadn't seen in a long time. Um, it was just. I felt like I was in a dream. Though I wouldn't say it was like, the happiest day of my life. Still hadn't, like, hit me yet. It just felt surreal, and I felt. I felt sad. Like, where do. So I'm gonna go back to the hotel, pack up. Pack up my things, and then where do I go? And everyone else is going. You know, my friends are gonna travel back and go back to work, and the lawyers are gonna go to other projects, and, you know, even my parents will go back to their routine and my siblings, and it's just, where do I go? I was not planning with 100% certainty I would be here today. It's weird to live a day that you never planned on. I never made a plan for June 19th or 20th or the 21st because I didn't want to jinx anything, and I didn't know that I'd be there. I didn't even book a dentist appointment. So it's all of a sudden now I've got nothing. And just very surreal is the best word I can think to describe it.
- [14:00]
Interviewer
Is it like someone just comes and shakes your snow globe and then leaves?
- [14:04]
Karen Reid
Yeah. Yeah. Everything just settles, and it just gets eerily quiet like it does after a snowstorm before the plows come through. It's just dark and silent and. And it's. It's still, like. Feels like that it's getting it. I'm starting to feel my way around, like, defining what my life is going to be, but it's getting. It's getting easier. But I do feel I've had this delayed. Re. This delayed reaction to the persecution, not delayed reaction to the acquittal. I'm. I'm finally, like, reacting to this. This horrible thing that happened to me. And I had to swallow and, And, and, and roll with it. And now I'm digesting it. Like, I. I swallowed something horrible, and it's just sat in my body, and now I'm finally breaking it down. I. I feel like it's. I'm having to address things that I swept under the carpet, like, emotionally.
- [15:27]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [15:30]
Karen Reid
It'S. You just. Your body kicks into this fight or flight. And my body is very good. My mind is very good at kicking into fight. I work very well under stress and pressure. And it got even better. That characteristic got refined during the last four years. But you can't do that to your body and to your mind without paying the piper eventually. And that's. I feel like I've had to do that.
- [16:06]
Interviewer
Have you ever, like, dealt with depression during the trial, even now?
- [16:11]
Karen Reid
No, I've never really dealt with it ever. I don't know if it's depression or if it's like ptsd. But no, I didn't feel. I was angry most of the time angry. And I felt very lucky that it's a disservice to the people around me who are the most amazing people anyone could ask for. And I'm not inclined to depression, so I'm not surprised. I mean, I went through a normal grieving process, but I didn't feel down that I had to sell my house and everything in it that I curated myself. I. I felt, you know, and I. I had a conversation with Alan that don't look at it as, you know, the government is robbing you of this. Like, they. They're using your taxes to prosecute you, and you're having to go through any. Every asset and liquidate it. Look at it as an investment you made before you ever knew you'd be in this situation. And now it's paying off when you need it and you're gonna use this house to save your life. And, you know, it was. I get a lot of words of wisdom, but they don't all resonate. And that did. But I think I really just feel that I've. I've been running on endorphins that are now the spigot just shut off. And I've got to inspire myself in ways like everybody else wakes up and I look at everyone around me like, you get up and live lives and find inspiration or physically and mentally. And I just have to do that like a normal person now. Like, retrain it.
- [18:10]
Interviewer
Yeah, there's actually some people, perhaps a lot of people out there that think you are sitting on a beach, you Are cashing in on a book deal, a documentary deal. Like, they think that you are good, you're set, you're enjoying your life. Is that what it really is like?
- [18:29]
Karen Reid
So we have announced that we're working with a publisher. This is Luke Janklo and a producer in Los Angeles, that's Julie Orn on the movie and TV side of things. So I've only announced that I have agents and I have these producers helping me to sell this. I have made nothing on the documentary. In fact, I lost trying to fight for a piece of the proceeds from the documentary. I went into the documentary thinking that there was the Son of Sam law in Massachusetts which prevents defendants from profiting. You know, you can't commit a crime and then write a book from prison and send your kids to college on the back of this crime. There is no Son of Sam law in Massachusetts, which we found out in the middle of making this deal with the documentaries, which was great. So I can get paid at any point in this legal process, Even if I were convicted, we were not paid. I was not paid. No member of my team was paid. Anything from the documentary was very legally involved. I believe I was misled and taken advantage of, and we gave the documentarian our all. I did not see the documentary. I watched the end of the final episode. I don't know if there are four or five. David, several people told me that was a nice moment with David and me at the end of the last episode. So I did watch that, and I liked it. And then I watched Dave and I said goodbye at the hotel. And then the documentary ended with me in my basement at the house I no longer live in with all the legal boxes, because the documentary ended at the mistrial. So I think she was trying to show. Here I am just stuck it, stuck it. Go again with our paper shredder and our printers and. And I think I was, like, vacuuming the floor. And I was like, all right, I've seen enough people close to me who watched the documentary said, based on what I had predicted it would be, it was not that. And I thought, this documentary experience has not been fun. It was incredibly invasive, which I knew it would be. But we still gave them more access than they could have ever hoped for. And she, the documentarian, I feel, went out of her way to excise us from enjoying not one dime of these. Of. Of the proceeds. And based on what little I saw and what I've heard of the product. I don't need your money. You. You know what you did. You know what we gave you every day, my family? You were in our living quarters. You were on the, in the SUV with us every day. You know what we gave you and you know what kind of story you had from us. And you used us. You know you did. And I wish just never to cross paths with you again. I will tell my story with more control. We don't have a book deal. I think Alan and I will be co authors on a book. There will be no book written by someone, even with just some creative input by me. It will be written by probably three people, a professional. And then Alan, Alan and I will, will be helping to tell the story. So I, I want this to be a story about corruption. I want to have some impact on the state where I've lived most of my life and where my family's from and where we battled this. I want to make an impact on what people think about politics, about the government, about the dangers of a one party political system, which is what Massachusetts is. It's not about liberal or conservative. It's about being one party from the founding of that government with no competition, no checks and balances. It becomes almost anarchy like it is now. We've got a district attorney who has a war chest despite not having any opposition. It's dangerous. And I believe that is why I got where I was and why I got into this position and why until it changes, there will be other Karen Reid's. You may not hear about them, these stories. Sandra Birchmore it's getting exposed. Other people are exposing it as well. That's what this story will be. And if I have to write it myself, then I'll write it myself.
- [23:25]
Interviewer
This episode is presented by 20th Century Studios. Send help from the twisted mind of Sam Raimi, director of the Evil Dead and Drag Me to hell, starring Rachel McAdams and Dylan O', Brien, comes a new film that begs the question, what would you do if you were stuck on an island with your terrible Boss in paradise? HR can't hear you scream. Only in theaters and 3D January 30th. Get tickets now.
- [23:52]
Podcast Host
The Pit is back for a new season on the Pit Podcast. Join Alok Patel and Hunter Harris as they unpack each episode after it airs, discussing the stories, real medicine and ethics behind every scene. You'll also hear from the cast and creators who bring the show to life, including Noah Wylie, Katherine Lanassa and more. Watch the Pit podcast on HBO Max or wherever you get podcasts.
- [24:15]
Court Official
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- [24:26]
Karen Reid
So here's the idea.
- [24:27]
Court Official
You get it now, you call it.
- [24:28]
Karen Reid
An early present for next year.
- [24:30]
Court Official
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- [24:35]
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- [24:51]
Interviewer
Even. On that note, I do feel like I've heard a lot about you. I've heard a lot of clips of you. I've watched the whole documentary series Body in the Snow and I feel like you're very different from that. You know, the way that you're presented in the documentary and then versus like when you walked in.
- [25:09]
Karen Reid
I've gotten very good and I was not good at this in my prior life. I've gotten very good at controlling what I let upset me because so much has been taken from my control with a judge, with a district attorney, with the state police. I've been arrested, I've had my home two years later. Search for electronics. Once someone comes in your home, you have no safe place anywhere. They've been in my parents home, they've been in my house three times. So I've had to learn to control what I can control, which means not falling down a rabbit hole on Twitter, not reading comments on a video on YouTube. And I knew I had an idea where this documentary was going before it came out. We ended the relationship with Terry the documentarian on a very bad note, over money of course. I had former students from Bentley, I had former colleagues. I had friends that traveled on their dime to interview for this documentary. These are people who knew me in all sorts of facets of life that I was then told those interviews didn't make it in.
- [26:19]
Interviewer
They didn't make it in.
- [26:20]
Karen Reid
Yeah. But John's sister in law, who to the best of my knowledge and to everyone's knowledge I would guess knows they didn't have the tightest relationship or a friend of his. There's been two friends of his I have never met. I was with John nearly every day for two years. I had dated him 20 years before that. And there's some guy and an old girlfriend who I never met. This is the closest you could find to John, People who never saw John and me interact. And yet I gave you, I gave you friends. I gave you people from my parish, students, colleagues, and none of it made it in. So when the document documentary, the documentary came out and I can't even remember when that was, I. I made a concerted effort. I will not watch that. I. What is the point? To get upset? Because I know what didn't make it in and people come up to me all the time that I saw the document, the documentary, it was, wow, what a story it told. And I can't believe what you went through. But my family and friends that saw it, no one's raved about it because they don't feel it portrayed me. But I'm not surprised. I was cast in a light that is not realistic.
- [27:41]
Interviewer
Yeah. During our four part series on Karen Reid's case, I mean that's over like 10 hours long. Just with the sheer amount of people that were involved, we did have to resort to coming up with nicknames or monikers. Some of our own creation, some that we've adopted from social media discourse. And out of just pure habit and pure personal style. I might still be referring to some of these people with that nickname we called Brian Higgins. Brian Haha Higgins. Michael Proctor. Michael no Nudes Proctor. That was literally just so people could have an idea of who we're talking about when we mention a name. If I do that, that is not Karen poking fun at anyone. Honestly, she probably prefer that I don't use these nicknames, but I probably will through this episode. And on top of that, another disclaimer is Karen is right now involved in multiple civil lawsuits involving a ton of different people. So there might be some questions that she cannot answer legally. And that's just for legal purposes. So with that being said, what do you think happened to John O'?
- [28:44]
Karen Reid
Keefe? John O' Keefe entered the garage or the house at 34 Fairview and sooner, much sooner than later met his demise. Based on his injuries, it looks to me like he got into a fight and fell backwards. There was not a single pathologist in either trial that didn't say the mortal wound came from falling backwards and hitting his head. That was. That was agreed on. He had bruises on his hands. The prosecution tried to say that Those came from IVs, but I've had many IVs. I've had them in my hands and my hands never looked like that. But I dropped him off. He went up to the breezeway and 6am I find him in a heap, missing his hat, missing his shoe and laying there with a piece of glass in his face. So someone in that house Killed John o'. Keefe.
- [29:47]
Interviewer
The Alberts have stated that they were asleep.
- [29:50]
Karen Reid
And there's footage of you.
- [29:52]
Interviewer
There's body cam footage of you, like screaming, dash cam footage. How loud were you screaming? Because there's all these comments about, oh, the wind, the blizzard.
- [30:00]
Karen Reid
I've done research and my understanding is that the snow can muffle sounds. I don't need to wonder if Brian Albert and Nicole Albert were awake. According to the commonwealth's own witness, mine as well, but theirs as well. Ian Whiffin. Nicole Albert at 5:00am has an answered phone call from Jen McCabe. Answered and deleted. Furthermore, Nicole Albert at 6:07am and 6:08am has two more phone calls, each lasting about 7 seconds. From Jen McCabe. Answered & deleted. This is not conjecture. This is not my theory. This is in the data pour over my phone records. By the way, I had no deleted calls, no deleted Google searches. I actually didn't have any Google searches at all. But I know from the data, according to the data, unless the data is wrong, and this is celebrate that's used was just used to help convict Brian Walsh of murdering his wife. The same celebrate used by law enforcement globally is telling me that Nicole Albert's phone answered a call from her sister at 5am and then two more at 6am so that would lead me to assume that Nicole Albert was.
- [31:38]
Interviewer
Awake. Have you guys ever tried to recreate the quote unquote butt.
- [31:44]
Karen Reid
Dials? No, because it's not possible. It's not possible. I have called people and we jokingly, my friends and I and my family and I, we say butt dial when we mean like I may be scrolling through my call.
- [32:01]
Interviewer
Log.
- [32:02]
Karen Reid
Yeah. And I accidentally activate that name and it calls. Or someone sent me their number on Instagram and I went to press it down and copy it so then I could save it in my contacts and it called them and then I'll say haha, but dial. But it wasn't an actual accidental phone call made while the phone was completely inert. That's what they're saying. But dials are. Even if you're. You're able to inadvertently make a phone call, they're all doing it in the middle of the night, all of them. Higgins is saying he made a butt dial. Brian Albert is saying it was a butt.
- [32:38]
Court Official
Dial. Well, it's kind of like a butt.
- [32:40]
Karen Reid
Dial. I believe I used the word butt.
- [32:43]
Court Official
Dials. Well, I used a phrase that people commonly used as a butt.
- [32:48]
Karen Reid
Dial. Not just a butt dial but a. But a butt answer and a butt hang up yeah, on both ends. So you're saying you accidentally called him, he accidentally answered, he accidentally hung up and then you accidentally hung up. Jen McCabe said the slew of phone calls to John at quarter of one, between 12:30 and one o' clock, she had over a dozen phone calls to John. She's claiming those were all butt dials. What are the chances these people who were together all night are engaging in, if you count them, somewhere in the neighborhood of 20. But butt phone actions, answering, dialing, hanging up, they appear they, meaning the Alberts, McCabes and Higgins appear to have kept, kept it simple and agreed to several mantras and just those mantras. One of them was butt dials and the other. I don't recall. Or not that I.
- [33:56]
Court Official
Recall. I don't remember. I don't. I don't.
- [33:59]
Karen Reid
Recall. I don't remember. I don't. I don't recall my.
- [34:04]
Court Official
Interview. I don't.
- [34:05]
Karen Reid
Recall. I do not recall.
- [34:07]
Court Official
Having. I don't.
- [34:08]
Karen Reid
Recall. I don't.
- [34:09]
Court Official
Remember. I don't remember if I was.
- [34:11]
Karen Reid
Tied. If they were coached, it was smart keep it simple. Because when they start to add details to their renditions of what happened that night, they're completely inconsistent. Brian, Brian Higgins said his Jeep was parked in front of the house. He backed it up, he had a plow. He went into great detail and he, he, he jokingly plowed some snow for Brian Nicole to pull in and then Matt and Jen and then he, he VEED out and pulled in front of the house by the mailbox. Yet Jen McCabe didn't see the car and she was apparently on night watch at the front door and never saw a Jeep. A Jeep with a plow, which is, is something memorable. Ryan Nagle, Ricky Dantono and Heather Maxson were behind me. They never saw the Jeep. So my point being their group thought is is simple. But as soon as you require details from these people, their stories are all over the.
- [35:11]
Interviewer
Place. Do you think Chloe, the Albert Struman shepherd is still.
- [35:16]
Karen Reid
Alive? This is the question I get asked the most is what happened to the dog? And I realize I do not have a dog. I realize this is where society is. A lot of us love dogs more than we love people or just as much. But I get this question constantly. I have no idea what happened to Chloe. Based on what I know, I would guess the dog is dead. I don't believe it's the dog they claim it is up in New Hampshire. We asked for proof and all they gave us was animal control vaccination records. That I can literally go to animal control and get a copy of the vaccination records. And this woman in New Hampshire who we have no address, no phone number for, she's claiming this is the dog, this is his birthday and this, this is his vaccination. Well, anybody can get.
- [36:08]
Interviewer
That. At what point in the investigation did you feel like, okay, this is not an investigation into a tragic accident. I'm being framed. Like what? Is there a moment, a specific moment, it hits.
- [36:20]
Karen Reid
You. So they had my phone in my car within a half hour of coming to my parents house. So they left my parents at 4, 4:15 on January 29th. They took my phone and they took the car. I was hoping desperately this is a case of they've got the wrong guy. I'm arrested on February 1st and then I'm arraigned the next morning. I hadn't met in person David Yannetti, but I had already engaged with him. On January 29th he comes to the holding cell at the courthouse in Stoughton and he has one copy of, of the police report that Michael, Michael Proctor authored. He's holding the police report now. They're already calling my case at 9am it's like 9:10 and I don't know what I'm walking into. I don't know what they have against me. I don't know anything. David is holding the police report and we're reading it together. They only gave him one copy. So his hands between the bars, I'm leaning in and we're reading it quick. I don't know how I had the focus to even comprehend and read at that moment. It was like just another fight or flight. That focus, Karen, this is about to be read in front of a courtroom filled with people. The first thing that stood out to me was it said they arrived at my parents house. Proctor and Buchnik arrived at my parents house at 4:30pm and left at 5:30pm And I knew right away that was wrong. I've lived in New England most of my life. 5:30 in the middle of January is pitch black outside. 4:30pm is almost pitch black outside. And I knew when they left my house, my parents house, it was still somewhat light outside because I remember watching the flatbed with my truck go by the front of the, go by the front window. I knew they had gotten to the house around three o' clock and I knew they weren't there for two and a half hours. So I thought, well, maybe this is how police reports are written. Initially in a cursory fashion. That they're approximate times and then we can tighten timelines later. But that always bothered me. And then every affidavit that was accompanying every seizure of evidence after that kept saying the same thing, that on January 29th, we went to the house in Dayton at 4:30. We left at 5:30. So that was the first time I thought, all right, we're dealing with very sloppy, imprecise police. That was my first inkling that this isn't completely ticked and tied. After I was released from the arraignment on February 2, that evening, David called me. David Jannetti called me and said he had gotten an anonymous phone call from someone saying, you need to pay attention to who lives in the house. I had not even thought about the Alberts. I. Not one way or the other, just that I knew that was their house and they had been with us the night before and I had met them for the first time a week before that. So it was very early on. I've been lucky that very early on and at regular intervals since, I have been given gifts of information that helped buoy me. I can't tell you hearing that information from David. And so of course, as soon as David says this anonymous caller says, look at the owner of the house. I start Googling Brian Albert. And it's within seconds I find a Google video of him in a boxing ring beating people up. And. And he looks. I've met him, but I haven't paid much attention to him. But he sounds gruff and he's. He's walking into some drug bust with some kind of shield and weapons and. And he just. He looked like a tough, mean, mean guy. Mind you, though, at this time, I didn't know John's injuries in detail when I found him. He had a cut on his. On his nose, on his left side, and he had a cut above his right eye. He had blood coming out of his nose and his eyes were like eggs. But I didn't know if he had broken ribs or his femur was sticking out of his body. I mean, it didn't seem to be, but I didn't know if he had internal bleeding. I didn't. I didn't know until I saw the hospital photos in May how obvious it was that this body was not hit by a car or anything like a car. And this body looks like it was beaten up. So it's. It was every couple of months. So we got that tip. We didn't get much. March and April of 2022 were very tough. I. John was in my life so much, so thickly. And then he wasn't anymore. It was the only relationship I've had, and I've had many that. I mean, I'm 45 and I've been dating since I was a teenager. That ended with such finality. I can't call him when I'm out in Boston at 1am when the bar closes like I did when I was in my 20s. I can't miss him in a few weeks and say, just thinking of you, or can I drop by and see you? I've never been forced to deal with such finality. I've never had a death that. That close to me. So March and April were difficult. There just wasn't anything going on. We weren't getting any police reports. I still didn't know what. What they were using to charge me. And it was in May that that they finally released the photos that were taken of him at the hospital and then the autopsy. Two different events. And it was very obvious to me this is not what they're claiming. There's a cracked tail light on my car and John is pristine. Pristine from the neck down, with the exception of his right arm. And coupling that and David continued to get this anonymous tip to look at Brian Albert coupling those together. It gave me hope that I may be able to figure out what.
- [42:31]
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- [43:06]
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- [43:36]
Podcast Host
Protected. The Pit is back for a new season on the Pitt Podcast. Join Alok Patel and Hunter Harris as they unpack each episode after it airs, discussing the stories, real medicine and ethics behind every scene. You'll also hear from the cast and creators who bring the show to life, including Noah Wylie, Kathryn Lanassa and More. Watch the Pitt podcast on HBO Max or wherever you get.
- [43:58]
Interviewer
Podcasts. We saw the footage of the second arrest, which was probably one of the more shocking pieces of footage connected to your case. You had no idea that they were coming. Cause you're just in short pajamas and you're begging to change before they take you in. And then eventually they mock you because you beg to change. And they're like, look at how much she cares about being on tv. Have you seen the.
- [44:28]
Karen Reid
Footage? I have seen stills of it, but I've steered clear. It is very difficult for me. And I've warned my parents not to. I. I think my dad just watches everything, but I've warned them not to. I'm getting charged with second degree murder.
- [44:43]
Interviewer
Now. That's.
- [44:43]
Karen Reid
Correct. I have no idea what this is about.
- [44:45]
Court Official
Now. It's about the same exact.
- [44:46]
Lawyer
Incident.
- [44:47]
Court Official
Okay. Where's the.
- [44:47]
Karen Reid
Medication? Can I use the ladies.
- [44:49]
Court Official
Room? I understand. We're gonna get all your parents and they can come over and retrieve any item you need or.
- [44:54]
Karen Reid
Want. Yep. I can't.
- [44:55]
Lawyer
Put. Hold on, hold.
- [44:57]
Court Official
On. What about the shoe? Or what kind of foot were.
- [45:00]
Karen Reid
These? Anything. But can I. These guys, I don't even have.
- [45:03]
Court Official
Underwear. Can I put pants on again? Your parents can come over here and retrieve anything. We'll get that medication for.
- [45:09]
Karen Reid
You. And can I put pants on.
- [45:10]
Court Official
Please? Can you just step up over the side, please? Where are your.
- [45:14]
Karen Reid
Pants? At the foot of my bed. Can I just have a pair.
- [45:17]
Court Official
Of jeans in the meantime? Let's follow you. Follow this trooper right.
- [45:21]
Karen Reid
Here. All right, but where can I.
- [45:22]
Court Official
Put my pants on at the.
- [45:24]
Karen Reid
Barracks? Can I put them on the floor before I go out of my house.
- [45:27]
Court Official
Please? That's not part of our procedure. Once you have a chance to change, do the barracks. Have a seat there for me? Then you gotta put that cor know double lock. It's just like how crazy she can. She's more concerned what she looks like on tv. Yeah, I'm still recording, just to let you know.
- [45:57]
Karen Reid
Okay. I have seen the footage from my own backyard camera after I was arrested the first time. And once I started to figure out what was happening, I was frightened. I was frightened about who was on the other side. Who was on the law enforcement side that is is trying to pin this on me. And who killed John that could be in my backyard right now. And then I learned about Sandra Birchmore. I did worry. I live alone. I'm like a sitting duck. Will I be hanging from a door, A door knob in my house. And they could easily explain it as guilt, depression over what had happened and she just gave up. So the first six months of 2022 were difficult. I had not even been explained to the concept of an upcharge. My understanding was you get indicted on what you were charged for. I didn't realize that the district attorney can present anything he wants to the grand jury and they can charge me with anything. They could have charged me with also breaking into the Alberts house and stealing their TV set while I was parked outside. I didn't realize that. And shame on me that I didn't learn that. I was trying to learn as much as I could during these months. I was reading a book every couple days just about the criminal justice system and defending yourself and how this works. But June 9, I was home alone, like I was most days. I would do yard work. I'd put headphones in. I'd wait for one of the lawyers to call. I had been mowing the lawn. I hadn't showered yet. I was wearing boxers, and I actually just had a tank top on. I didn't have any underwear on. And I came in from doing yard work and I decided I was going to cook for myself. I mean, this was my catharsis. I would go outside. I tried to get sun. I did a lot of ask my neighbors. I was out in my yard every day just trying to sweat, at least physically tire myself outside so I could sleep at night. And I was cooking. I was trying to eat well. So I was making a pot of chili. I was finishing everything up. I had. I had music on. And all of a sudden I hear voices. And I lower the music. I go to the front door and my windows are open. My storm door is closed, but the screen is up. And I heard a voice say, let's do this in the back. There's cameras out front. I had a very clear. It wasn't a ring doorbell. It was a. It was private security system. But there was a very visible camera over the front door. But I also had them 360 around my whole property. So I heard that voice. Let's do this around back. There's cameras out here. I see two cops. I couldn't make out who they were, but I could see them walking around by the garage of my property, which kind of requires you to go down into the driveway. The garage sits under the house and then up a hill into my backyard. So I start shaking. I look out a window. I see there's. There's a Mansfield, the town I lived in Mansfield, Massachusetts, Cruiser. And then I Think two unmarked cars, maybe there was a third. And I thought that something's happening. The first person I see now, I'm looking out the back window. I'm reaching for my cell phone. I see Michael Proctor in plain clothes walking by himself. Now, he's soon to be followed by Buchnik and another state trooper, I believe, and a Mansfield cop. I think the state police have to call in local assist whenever they're in a different jurisdiction. For a split second, I thought Michael Proctor was there to hurt me. I had no idea. Why is he here? Why. Why is he in plain clothes? Why is he at my back door, which is almost in the woods? There's no inviting path to my back door. You'd have no reason to go looking for my back door. I called David Yanetti, and it's just like a dream where you just can't dial the number or you're trying to text and you can't get the text right. And it's like that in real life, like your hands are shaking and you. I think I dialed his number like three or four times before I finally was able to dial it correctly. And I said, david Proctor's here. There's police here. I don't know what they're doing. And I can't remember if David told me that he had just gotten a phone call, that I was indicted, or if he guessed they may have just indicted you. I knew that they were close to. I was hearing through the grapevine that people were testifying. So I can't remember exactly what David said to me. I then I think I either called my dad, I think I called my dad, and I said, daddy, I think I'm getting arrested again. And my poor dad, he. I know that was the worst. One of the worst moments of this whole thing, because we were just completely bewildered. What now? So I take the phone. It's still dialed in. I'm connected to David. I'm in my pajamas. I don't have shoes on. I'm being charged with second degree murder, now, that's.
- [51:20]
Court Official
Correct. Homicides and leaving the scene, causing death and off bodily.
- [51:24]
Karen Reid
Injury. I walk outside, one of the first thing that happens. Proctor's reading me. He's reading me my rights, and he's telling me that I've been charged with murder. And Buchnik, in the middle of all this, I'm trying to. I'm on sensory overload, but I'm trying to absorb what's going on. Buchnik takes my cell phone and goes, I'll be taking that and he puts the cell phone still connected to David Yannetti in his. In his pocket. There is no search warrant for that phone. That is not the phone I had on January 29. They already have that phone. So they did, for some period of time, have my replacement cell phone. And who knows. Who knows what they did with it? I know when they took it, there was an active line open to David Iannetti. So I know when Buchnik took the phone, there was at least an open line. So while Proctor's reading this to me, the indictment and my rights, he starts pinning my arms behind my back. And I'm trying to move away from him because I still don't understand. I've done everything. I've shown up at every hearing. I'm at my house. I'm. I haven't broken the law. I haven't driven. Why am I being arrested? I did hear the word murder. So there's. There's gears grinding in my head that something. Something's gotten worse here. So he's trying to pin my arms and cuff me, and I'm trying to move away from him. And at the same time, I'm saying to him, now, I haven't heard the tape, but my recollection is. I'm saying to him, can I please have some clothes? I'm not even wearing underwear. I've had a colostomy bag at four different periods in my life. So leaving anywhere without pants or underwear or certain materials that I need is of the utmost embarrassment. And Proctor knows this. He said, I did see a clip of him saying, she's worried. What? Cause I think it was on.
- [53:21]
Interviewer
Tv.
- [53:22]
Karen Reid
Yes. He said, she's worried what she looks like for the cameras. All she can think about is the.
- [53:26]
Interviewer
Cameras. He says, you see how crazy she is. She is more concerned about how she looks on.
- [53:31]
Court Official
Tv. See how crazy she is? She's more concerned what she looks like is on.
- [53:37]
Karen Reid
Tv. Yeah. More of Proctor misrepresenting everything, including that. First of all, the. The only reason cameras were there is because the district attorney or the state police called. Called Cameras. I. I arrived at the state police barracks an hour later, and they were all there. I was escorted from the barracks the next morning for my arraignment, and they were all there, and they were all at the courthouse. So the only reason cameras are involved is because you're parading me and trying to make a case out of this. You're trying to show me looking this way like a criminal, and that's why you call the cameras in. But I should be allowed to put pants on or shoes. So Buchnik goes into my house. I see him on my. My own. My own home surveillance system. He's in my house for about 10 minutes. I told him where my closet was, where the room was. I have a bunch of suit. I was a professional wearing suits and professional attire my whole career. I have a closet filled with these clothes. And I directed him to that closet. He instead goes to the barracks with a pair of flip flops. I don't know where he found them. From my javianas that I wear to the beach. And ripped, ripped jeans that I had just taken off from mowing my lawn. They had holes. They didn't cover my ankles. I would never wear these jeans. The grass stains. I can't remember if they gave me the clothes to wear that night in the cell or if he gave them to me before I went to court in the morning. A girlfriend of mine came to the barracks in the middle of the night with court clothes, with black pants, a black top and black shoes. And they would not allow me to put those clothes on for court. So I heard her come in. I was in a cell, and she said, can I give these for Karen for the morning? And they. They said something to her like, we can't guarantee that, but we'll take them. They gave them to me at some point the next day. They didn't allow me to put them on. Instead, they forced me to take the bag of clothes that Bunik had secured, which was ripped jeans and flip flops. That night was one of the worst nights of my life in the past four years because I called David from. From jail, and he. He was worried. He was. He was not able to tell me anything to allay my fright. I mean, it's not concern. It was fright. And he said, they've upcharged you with murder. I. I don't know how they're able to do that, on what evidence, but they've increased the charges. They. They want to keep you locked up now through trial, through verdict. But if. If we're asking for bail, they're requesting a million dollars, which of course, I did not have. So I spent the night knowing that. That I've got to go before a judge tomorrow. I didn't know what judge it would be. And I have to hope they lower this bill, that they allow me to post it. A judge can deny you bail altogether, that you're a danger to society. You've been indicted for murder. You're. You're not going.
- [56:56]
Interviewer
Home. There are active lawsuits between you and Michael Proctor, amongst others. You know, so there's. There's some things that you can't say, but there are things that are indisputable. So Michael Proctor himself has admitted that he has texted people in group chats. He texted that he hasn't found your nudes yet. He talked about and made fun of your medical condition, saying, quote, she's got a leaky balloon knot. It leaks because poo. Calling you a, quote, whack job and then basically saying you are a babe with no.
- [57:30]
Court Official
Ass. She's got a leaky balloon knot. You followed that up with the phrase leaks poo, didn't you? I did. Yep. She's a babe. Weird Fall river accent, though. No.
- [57:43]
Interviewer
Ass. When did you first find out about these text.
- [57:46]
Karen Reid
Messages?
- [57:47]
Interviewer
What. What was going on in your.
- [57:49]
Karen Reid
Mind? I knew there were vile text messages. They were under a federal protective order. They were first encountered by my team, by my lawyers, In February of 2024, just before the first trial. I was not able to view these text messages. I just knew the generals that they existed and I, I knew they were involved in the cross examination prep, which I was very involved.
- [58:19]
Interviewer
In. To have him, Michael Proctor himself on the stand reading out what he sent. What's going on in your.
- [58:27]
Karen Reid
Mind? There had been some leaks on Twitter that I saw an account. We called her a big. Which I assumed someone like him uses language like that. Anyway, I knew in general that they were vile, but when he read them, I was actually annoyed that Adam Lally preempted us bringing these messages out in cross examination. That should have been our moment. He's your lead detective. You're letting him lay this case out. This is showing bias. And, and, and you always run into this issue with trial that if the evidence has already come out, you risk the judge saying, Mr. Jackson, Mr. Yannetti, that's already been asked and answered. So there was this worry that Lally is going to let Proctor read the text messages with very flat affect, and he did. You could barely understand. She's a babe with no ass. She has a leaky balloon. And next question. It was by design. Let's get him out there and preempt the defense from getting it out there. Luckily, we were still allowed and we, we made the biggest moment of it. I cared more about his lies. What he said about me and my anatomy, it's disgusting. But it did not embarrass me. Michael Proctor does not have the ability to embarrass me. In fact, I have all that I have in my life right now and the love and support and new endeavors such as this. And meeting people like you, ironically, because of Michael Proctor and what he tried to do to me, joking about my apple. I mean, I don't even want to say it was a joke. He was talking about my rectum. And that I've had rectal surgery, that this is a father of children, of boys, scarily. This is a husband of a woman, someone's son. This is a cop with. With power and carrying a gun and my age, more or less. And. And this is what he taught. This is his vernacular. But balloon knot and talking about my rectum, you. You're not embarrassing me. You're embarrassing yourself. And my medical issues, I've never been embarrassed by. I've struggled to deal with them in society and in intimate situations, but I'm proud of what I've had to deal with. And the more I talk to people and the older I grow, I know everyone's got something. No one's escaping completely in one piece. As we. As we age, I cared more about his lies. Him lying so blatantly. Every search warrant, nine of them took the car at 5:30. Took the car at 5:30. Why? Why? Why? Because the cert team, and this was another major lamp post in 2022 for me, was when I was finally indicted. After the awful experience of June 9 into June 10, the floodgates opened, and now we get all the discovery. And a cousin of mine who's an attorney, we agreed we'd get the discovery, which was thousands and thousands of pages. And we. We attacked it from. I think she went from the beginning to the middle, and I went from the end to the middle. And she was. She's a lobbyist. She was working full time, but every night she went home. I worked on it all day. She worked on it all night. And she called me one night. This isn't about July. So I've been indicted now and upcharged for a month. And we're working our way through our discovery. I don't know what day. I would be guessing, but it was like a Thursday, a weeknight. She calls me at about 10 or 11, and she said, karen, read the cert report. This is the crime scene services search team. It's eight and a half by 11 piece of paper, and there's a whole box for a narrative about the evidence that was found at 34 Fairview. And there's only four lines that I needed glasses to read what they said. And it was that the first pieces of red and clear lens were found at 34 Fairview. I can't remember if the report said 5:45 or 6pm and then all of a sudden it was. My light was not there all day long because that was something I could not reconcile for months and months in 2022. But how did my tail light get there? How did. Did they somehow find pieces of it broken at John's house from when I hit John's car at 5 in the morning? And were they able to transport those? That's the only thing. Thing I could figure out. And I still didn't have an answer as to why he lied about taking my car at 5:30 when he actually took it and left at 4:15. And it was that night in July. The cert team did not find taillight until after Proctor had the tail light. And he had to get himself out of Canton at 5:45. If he's in Dighton at 5:30 in a blizzard 35 miles from Canton, there's no way he can be in Canton with the Lexus and the Lexus's red tail light at 5:45. And it just. It was just the biggest eureka of more than the text messages, more than the butt dials, more than the phone and the SIM card cut up at the air force base. To me, it was the cornerstone because it just bothered me. I just couldn't reconcile how did my tail light get there? I know I did not break my tail light at 35. I tried to think of every scenario in which I could have and none of it was reasonable. And then I realized that moment it was placed there after they had access to.
- [64:37]
Interviewer
It. And the inverted.
- [64:39]
Karen Reid
Footage. And the inverted footage. And the inverted footage didn't come for two more years. But when Proctor was on the stand reading the.
- [64:46]
Court Official
Messages. He's a whack job. See you.
- [64:51]
Judge
Objection. So this, These are your words, trooper.
- [64:54]
Court Official
Proctor? Yes, your.
- [64:55]
Judge
Honor. Go ahead and say.
- [64:56]
Court Official
Them. I'm going through his client's phone right now, correct? Yes. After the picture, sir. Yes. Who's the client? I was referring to Ms. Reed. He also called her retarded, correct? That is what's written and that's what you read. I have no memory of reading that. I acknowledged him going through the phone on my Apple watch. I have no memory of him writing on a text message. Did you encourage that statement about Michael Proctor by liking it with a thumbs up? I don't know if it encouraged him, but. So I cannot. I cannot.
- [65:47]
Lawyer
Speak. But that's what you.
- [65:48]
Court Official
Did. I acknowledge the text message. Being.
- [65:51]
Lawyer
Sent. Could you read all of them.
- [65:53]
Court Official
Please? These are not my words. I'm not really comfortable reading these. Do I have to say these words out.
- [66:01]
Lawyer
Loud? I'll say the words and I'm going to ask you if I'm reading.
- [66:03]
Interviewer
Accurately. Is that.
- [66:04]
Court Official
Better?
- [66:04]
Lawyer
Yes. 11:00pm, 5 minutes, 57 seconds. Mr. Proctor says, from all accounts, he didn't do a thing wrong. She's a whack job. And then uses the C word to describe. Is that.
- [66:17]
Court Official
Accurate? That's.
- [66:18]
Lawyer
Accurate. At the bottom, from one member in the group stating, oh, she's.
- [66:21]
Court Official
Skating.
- [66:22]
Lawyer
Yes. Mr. Proctor responds, 0 chance she skated. She's f. She's.
- [66:29]
Court Official
Fucked.
- [66:30]
Lawyer
Yes. And then one person in the group says, no. Ass.
- [66:34]
Court Official
Bitch. Yeah. That's.
- [66:36]
Lawyer
Accurate. Mr. Proctor, there's a response. Laughed at. Quote, no, ass.
- [66:41]
Court Official
Bitch.
- [66:42]
Lawyer
Yes. Somebody in the group says, is that chick a smoke? And then the same person follows up with a question mark.
- [66:50]
Court Official
Accurate.
- [66:51]
Lawyer
Accurate. Mr. Proctor responds, Eh, yes. Nut bag. As my chief would.
- [66:57]
Podcast Host
Say.
- [66:58]
Lawyer
Yes. She's got a leaky balloon.
- [67:00]
Court Official
Knot.
- [67:01]
Lawyer
Yes.
- [67:01]
Advertiser
Leaks.
- [67:01]
Court Official
Poo.
- [67:02]
Lawyer
Yes. Those are the words of Mr.
- [67:04]
Court Official
Proctor. They.
- [67:04]
Lawyer
Are. Did I read those.
- [67:05]
Court Official
Accurately? You.
- [67:06]
Lawyer
Did. But you're still friends with.
- [67:08]
Advertiser
Him. I.
- [67:08]
Karen Reid
Am. He could be a pig and I could still be guilty. That's why I wanted the focus of the jury to be on Proctor's lies and the actual framing. And how was this orchestrated and not on the fact that this man is a vile pig who talks about people's rectums. You could still have a guilty woman and just a very unprofessional investigator. I cared much more about the lies that enabled him. Him to pull off what he pulled off. And the. The text messages were just. I. I just spent my energy assuring my parents that do not feel bad for me. This. This. This does not. This man does not have that power over me. Anyone who looks at me differently because some stranger who's never seen me. Yeah. Naked. Is going to talk about my anatomy. Anyone who finds that entertaining or is going to judge me for it isn't anybody I want in my life.
- [68:18]
Interviewer
Anyway. Yeah. During the trial, you're sitting there, the witnesses are going up onto the stand. They're testifying. They're like, karen did this. Karen said this. How do you not go up and testify? Do you not have the urge to be.
- [68:29]
Karen Reid
Like. No, let me tell you, I did have the urge and I tried to. To quell that and to satiate it by doing the documentary so that I could go back to the hotel at night and be interviewed. The judge was Appearing to be so much more lenient with her rulings, with the prosecution than she was with us. I mean we had to fight for everything. And it seemed to be a one way street that there was a worry if I testified. The prosecutor, especially Brennan, he seemed to be given even more latitude than Lally was. He did this with our witnesses. He was putting words in their mouths in his questions of those witnesses. Not exactly, but for example, something like he would say to Dr. Wolfe from ARCA. So after a car has backed up 60ft at 20 miles an hour and damaged this arm, then did the car keep going? Like you can't testify for the witness. Wolf has to agree that that car. I can't remember the numbers anymore. I used to know them with precision and now I don't. But he would ask a question and insert the answer he wanted, which he shouldn't be allowed to do. But he was. So there was real risk. Same with risks putting Proctor on the stand that we're not playing by the same rules. That Brennan was just so unethical in his questioning. I was really all right. I had lived three years before the first trial of long hearings, battling for things. I was getting used to it. At this point I don't think the public really started paying attention outside of the local market, really started paying attention until trial. But we had hours and hours of hearings for three years including two arrests where I was in chains, shackled and handcuffed. So I had gotten very good at venting to the people that were there to be to be vented to. And I knew if I can escape this, this hell, I will be able to get my side out. So it wasn't as bad as people think. Like how did you watch this person and not scream? I felt very close to God. I felt my parents presence behind me. I had my lawyers who became like family, all of them to me. And I knew they were frustrated on my behalf and I knew the public, especially by the second trial, the public knew what was happening. That Karen, this isn't your scourge, this is not your cross alone. Everybody behind you and around you and is carrying it. Do not let it, do not let it eat at you. Do not let that person control you. And they were all so, so repetitive and so like one another, like I don't recall. And it was the defendant. And I wish I'd known, I wish I had gone outside and it was, it was, it wasn't laughable, it was very serious but it was very predictable and I hope it was transparent to the jury, and apparently it was to both juries, because I was acquitted both.
- [71:57]
Interviewer
Times. Did you get a vibe that Auntie Bev did not like you, Judge.
- [72:03]
Karen Reid
Kanoni? Yes. Yes. I felt that Judge Kanoni did not. I felt that she had a personal animus towards me. Absolutely. I felt it very early on. In our early hearings in 2022, we would. We wouldn't be called right away because there were other cases. They started prioritizing us, and we were drawing such crowds that when we would have a hearing, they would get it started very promptly to help clear the courthouse, get us all in and get us all out, get the media out, and then hear other cases. But early on, when it wasn't attracting a big crowd, we would wait our turn and there'd be other cases and other defendants. And I was sitting at a hearing. I think I want to say it was September of 2022. It was like the first hearing that Alan was on the team for. And we were sitting in the back row, if you're looking at the courtroom on the left side, waiting. And there were maybe four other cases that she called. And every defendant was all four men, maybe one woman. Thank you for being here. Thank you for dressing professionally for court. She said this. It was. It was on repeat for every. Thank you for being here. Thank you for dressing professionally to court. This happened multiple hearings. She never said it to me. There were moments that I felt she was. She was. She was ruling unfairly. But as far as not liking me, that was the first indication I felt she may not like me personally for some reason. And then there was a moment with the verdict form in trial, one where. I mean, your viewers need to see the verdict form. If they. If they haven't. That they then tried to present in the second trial. Again, this verdict form, it had just by setup, it had the word guilty eight times and the word not guilty three times. It's visually confusing. It's visually confusing. And it's prejudicing the jurors to think I'm guilty, because they just see the word guilty so many times. So Alan is arguing with the court and with the clerk that we want to revise this verdict form. And she's arguing. This is how it's always done, Mr. Jackson. This is how it's done in Massachusetts. I mean, that was the topic of what was happening at the time. And she just kind of dismissed it, and we're done here. And I went like, just like that. And she said, Is this funny, Ms.
- [74:29]
Judge
Reed? Okay, I disagree with you all Right. Excuse me. This is funny, Ms. Reed. All right, we're.
- [74:38]
Karen Reid
Done. All rise to the court, please. I think it was prejudicial towards me, the defendant, that she chose to characterize my exasperation as making a joke of the proceeding. Is this funny, Ms. Reed? My jurors and the media heard that, and that was a gross mischaracterization. Judge Kanoni knows exactly what my reaction was. It was one of disbelief and exasperation and frustration. And she addressed me. I'm. I have lawyers here who speak on my behalf. You can address my lawyers who can address me, but you addressing me directly is baiting me to then respond to the court, which will not end well for me. But those. And the list goes on. But her calling me out like she knows what I'm going through right now, she knows how difficult this is for any defendant to stand trial. When the verdict was ready, we were prepared for a sentencing hearing. So my legal team in the days of the verdict watch was split up into two groups at the hotel. Allen had a suite at one end of the top floor, and Bob Alessi had a suite at the other. And we had. We had two teams. Liza, Evan, Allen and I were working on the closing argument. David Yannetti, Bob and Sophie, and Sydney, two of our interns, were in Bob's room working on a sentencing hearing. So if, God forbid, I was convicted of anything, which we thought there was a likelihood I could be convicted of the oui based on how the first trial ended. Hung up looking. Jurors were telling us they were looking for an oui, not a manslaughter oui, but just garden variety oui that was not there. They were working on sentencing that if I was convicted of oui, we fully expected. I did anyway. My lawyers were split that Brennan would ask for the maximum two years. So it was such a difficult decision to put the OUI on the slip because I felt I was almost guaranteeing I was going to go to jail, that with this district attorney and this judge, if I don't put OUI on the jury is forced. If they want to convict me, it's going to have to do with John's death. But once I put OUI on just drunk driving, I'm much more likely, based on the evidence, the blood alcohol taken from the hospital, I'm more likely to get a conviction. And while I'm not facing life in prison, I could be facing two years in prison. I had to have. I got about a dozen character letters. They're called of not friends and family, but teachers. I've had students, I've had co workers of mine. And the character letter has to be written on the premise that you are guilty. You're not arguing for my innocence. You have to accept the conviction, but then argue for the judge based on my character and what they know about me personally, that she should go light on sentencing. So I'm in one room preparing for a full acquittal with Allen's clothes. And then I'm running down the hall and making sure all the letters, the character letters are printed, getting printed. And we have case law for the judge that this is a first time oui. What do you do for a first time oui? You suspend their license and they go to a drunk driving class. If. If Brennan, which we expected was going to argue for jail time, we had to have a robust motion in opposition. Why not? So the verdict is read. I'm relieved, but I'm still waiting. After the final not guilty, the leaving the scene was read. I still have sentencing because I was found guilty of the oui. So judge Kanoni looks at Hank Brennan and says, and what do you recommend for sentencing? And this was almost more shocking than the verdict. Truly shocking. Like I had expected, if I had to bet an appendage had thought if I was convicted of oui or anything, Brennan would ask for the max sentence. And I thought she would split the baby and say, well, the max is two. I'm give her a year. Which is still devastating. So she looks to Brennan and he says, the commonwealth recommends one year probation with a suspended license. And she looks at him and says, same as every other first time offender. And he goes, same as every other first time. And it was like the most charitable thing. Actually, not even charitable. I'm miscalibrated. It was.
- [79:31]
Interviewer
Fair. If you're not used to.
- [79:33]
Judge
That. Hey, Mr. Brennan, what's the commonwealth's.
- [79:36]
Lawyer
Recommendation? The commonwealth moves to sentencing. We recommend probation. One year 24D.
- [79:42]
Judge
Program. So the standard that everybody else gets on their first time oui.
- [79:46]
Karen Reid
Certainly.
- [79:47]
Judge
Okay, so I'm happy to do it. All right, thank you.
- [79:52]
Court Official
All. One year probation. One year probation on docket number.
- [79:56]
Karen Reid
002. It's the wildest turn of events. I couldn't believe that this man Brennan was just arguing in his closing argument two days earlier for me to spend my life in prison. And then he has a moment with a judge that seems favorable to him to send me to jail. Enough to hurt. A week is enough to hurt. And he says, just slap her on the wrist. I looked at Him. And it just. So wait, is this. Were you faking all along? Or. You know, this is the only way to be saved with your public image is you lost. So now you almost have to be reasonable. But this is just a big. It just felt like a big game that they call in the jury. They're about to read the verdict. They stuff the courtroom with court officers. Because if I'm guilty of. If I'm sentenced to anything requiring incarceration and if I'm convicted of murder, I'm getting cuffed right there on the spot. I can't reach behind and squeeze my mother. I can't hug one of my lawyers. It's over. And I'm walking out the back door. And so they surround you. And to prevent any outburst and to control me. And then in the blink of an eye, it's, yeah, just make her go to a DUI class. And there's a parade out front for it too, by the way. It was just. That was the most befuddling of the three months of the second trial was when Brennan said, yeah, just one year probation. I'm like, wait a minute, you've been trying to end my life. Can you at least be consistent? Yeah. And pretend you think I'm a bad person. Can you just finish the charade? And even with the.
- [81:45]
Judge
Judge. So the standard that everybody else gets on a first time oui.
- [81:50]
Karen Reid
Certainly. Okay. It was same as every other. Geez. I haven't felt same as every other defendant at all in this, in this courthouse that I was still in shock at, that I was. I was convicted of the oui. And that Brennan didn't argue. And all that work we did, of course, because we were prepared. We didn't need it, thank God. But that was one of the more shocking, shocking events of the second trial for.
- [82:16]
Interviewer
Me. That is part one of our interview with Karen Reid. We're going to be posting the rest of the audio episode as well as the full video interview on our YouTube channel tomorrow. Rotten Mango. So stay tuned. Let me know in the comments what you think and stay.
- [82:31]
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