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Teen Boy’s Snapchat & Party Pic Reveal His Secret Connection To Karen Read Murder Case-Did He Do It?
03:23:03
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- [00:00]
Host
No body, no confirmed sightings. Just a string of haunting leads, blurred photographs, and chilling possibilities that suggest Amy may not have disappeared by choice. On March 23, 1998, 23 year old Amy Lynn Bradley disappeared without a trace from the Royal Caribbean cruise that she was on with her family en route to Curacao. Now, 25 years later, this case is as much of a mystery as ever, with numerous tip alleged sightings and leads that all point in different directions. With renewed attention and investigative efforts, Amy's family hopes that the momentum will lead us to whatever sinister underbelly Amy has fallen into and bring her home. Amy Bradley Is Missing is now playing only on Netflix. Having insurance isn't the same as having State Farm. It's like showing up for movie night ready for a heart pounding thriller. But getting a three hour documentary on lawn care, that's kind of like insurance. Insurance may all seem the same on the surface, but when it comes to getting the help you need, State Farm is the real deal. You wouldn't settle for a snooze fest when you came for a thrill ride. So don't settle for just any insurance when there's State Farm. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.
- [01:17]
Co-Host
Bada bing, bada boom.
- [01:18]
Host
If you want something to disappear forever, you're gonna throw it in the trash at a military base. And it kind of makes sense. Military trash is very different from regular civilian tr. Each US military base, they handle their waste systems very differently. Some overseas bases, they have burn pits where they get their daily trash. Some bases, they have enough trash to fill two and a half single family homes every single day. Sometimes it's filled with medical waste, chemicals, paints, plastic, food, human feces. They just round it up into a pile in the middle of nowhere, pour jet fuel into it and light it on fire, potentially giving everyone within like a few mile radius lifelong complications like asthma, if not just like straight up lung disease. They don't do that on US soil. Most of the time here there are waste systems in place and usually there are daily pickups of trash at military bases and they get taken to a very specific military landfill where they are then separated. And then eventually some of the trash does end up with civilian trash. But let's say you have your entire life belongings of sentimental value, your life savings, your passport in a little baggie that someone accidentally trashes at a military base, your odds of finding that are slim to none. I mean, you likely can't even voluntarily search these military landfills. They have controlled access, limited to authorized personnel only. Even if the trash is still sitting at the bottom of the dumpster on the military base. You would need a federal search warrant to go in and look for it. Which is perfect for Brian to take his phone with all of his text messages and call logs and then his SIM card that he breaks in half. He takes those two things and he tosses them into the trash at a military base. That way, nobody will ever be able to search his phone for anything that they might want. And there's a lot on that phone that people want, because Brian was there the night that John O' Keefe mysteriously died in the front lawn of 34 Fairviews.
- [03:22]
Co-Host
Brian Albert.
- [03:24]
Host
Brian Higgins. Brian Higgins.
- [03:27]
Co-Host
Which we haven't talked about at all.
- [03:28]
Host
No.
- [03:29]
Co-Host
Okay.
- [03:29]
Host
January 29, 2022, John O', Keefe, a Boston police officer, is found outside on the front lawn of another Boston cop's house. Brian Albert. Now, the night before everyone's having a gathering there. John o' Keefe was driven there by his girlfriend, Karen Reed. And that's all we know. Everything else is up for debate. Everyone inside the house states that John o' Keefe never came inside. They didn't even know that he was deceased in the front lawn the next morning. In fact, even though there were police cruisers, ambulances, fire trucks, they didn't even know that they were asleep. Everyone in the house at the time of the party says they never saw John o' Keefe come inside. John's girlfriend, Karen Reed, will say she saw him walk inside to make sure that they're welcome, and he never walked back out. But this is not Brian Albert that's trashing his phone. This is one of Brian Albert's best friends. I. Another Brian. Brian Higgins, a federal ATF agent.
- [04:27]
Co-Host
Atf?
- [04:28]
Host
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.
- [04:30]
Co-Host
Federal agent. So he works with the feds.
- [04:33]
Host
Yes, but it doesn't necessarily mean that he's like a higher rank. It's just a different jurisdiction. I mean, I. Some law enforcement think that anyone with the feds are higher in rank, but it really depends.
- [04:44]
Co-Host
Right, but they don't work directly together at all. They're just friends.
- [04:47]
Host
Sometimes they'll have many projects together, but not directly. Sometimes they'll work at the same police station because a lot of federal agents will have floating offices, and they'll have, like, their own little desk at a police station, because there's not a federal office in every town. Now, this Brian Higgins wanted John o' Keefe to come over that night. This is also the man who was interested in dating Karen Reed. In fact, the two Brian Higgins and Karen Reed shared a kiss at John's house, and ATF agent Brian tells Karen that he wants the real deal. And this is all before Karen Reid ghosts Brian Higgins. He was there the night of the party and now he's throwing away his phone at a military base. What exactly is Brian Higgins hiding? And does he have the strongest motive to want John o' Keefe dead so that he can have Karen Reed? We would like to thank today's sponsors who have made it possible for Rotten Mango to support the Dana Farber Cancer Institute in Boston, Massachusetts. They're a globally known cancer research center that also provides support for patients and families. Similar to John o' Keeffe's sister who had since passed away from Brain canc, this episode's partnerships have also made it possible to support Rotten Mango's growing team, and we'd also like to thank you guys for your continued support as we work on our mission to be worthy advocates. As always, full show notes are available@roottenmangopodcast.com There are references of driving under the influence, alleged physical assault. Please watch at your own discretion. This episode is part two of the four part series spanning both of Karen Reid's trials. Episode one is up now and I'd highly recommend going to watch that. It's it kind of establishes the lay of the land and I know that every single episode is just going to be a deeper layer of suspicion. So it's like, okay, everything you thought we knew in episode one, it actually gets deeper and darker in episode two. Even though we're covering some of the same territory, the way that people are talking about specific things, it's very fascinating the way that these witnesses testify. So if you've seen it or you're coming from that episode, you may notice that a few more people have been added to the wall. We're going to be adding more people as we get deeper into this case. I just don't want to overload you with faces right now. Before we get into the quick recap, in order to cover the vast span of both trials. So there were two trials for Karen re the Commonwealth of Massachusetts versus Karen Reed. There was one trial ended in a mistrial and then a second trial in order to cover both. Many quotes and statements from testimony and or opening closing statements have been shortened and condensed for brevity. If you feel like someone that should be on the wall isn't on the wall yet, it's because I've got a system for it. It's either coming in the next episode or the last one, which is going to be part four. Any speculations, accusations and allegations discussed are representative of netizen theories that you can find publicly online. We maintain that all individuals are until proven guilty in a court of law. Most importantly, I do want to be very clear that John o' Keefe ultimately lost his life. Our team in no way, shape or form are purposely trying to shift importance off of his death rather, and I think quite frankly, please be aware that John not being the primary focus of this case as a whole is more of a reflection of how this case has been handled and presented by the authorities involved and not the way that we were researching this case. So with that being said, let's get into the brief recap. January 29, 2022. Karen Reed calls two people. The first one is Jen McCabe and the second one is Carrie Roberts. And she tells them John o', Keefe, her boyfriend of two years, has not come home last night and she's freaking out. It's like five in the morning. They were getting drunk last night at a bar. They were all hanging out with friends. Jen was there, Carrie was not. And she's freaking out. She doesn't know what to do. She calls them, they start searching for John, they go back to John's house, they're searching here and there. Karen is allegedly a mess the entire time. She's screaming, she's frantic, she's his hysterical. She keeps repeating the same things. Some people say that she was saying things like could I have hit him? Other people are saying she said I hit him. Like a declaration, a confession of sorts. Eventually they make it back to 34 Fairview Road. This is a very important address. It's a single family home owned by none other than Brian Albert and his wife Nicole Albert, who also happens to be Jen McCabe's sister. So they're blood relatives. This is Jen McCabe's brother in law. They were all going to his house, the bar, last night, Karen and John included. So John is in Karen's car. They roll up to the house. Karen says, hey, we get to the house, we've never been here before. We had to call Jen to get instructions to even get here. And once we get here, it doesn't look that welcoming and like, are you sure we're invited? She asks John to go inside to check and make sure everything is good. She stays in her car. John goes inside. She's saying she saw him walk towards the front door and then he never comes outside. She's getting agitated, her stomach hurts. She's not feeling well. She doesn't know any of these people. John knows them because he's a Boston cop. Brian Albert's a Boston cop. They're all cops. Karen, she's an asset manager. She's not a part of this cop world. And so she decides I'm just going to leave him because he's kind of making me mad. He hasn't checked up on me. He hasn't opened the door and said, come in. He hasn't texted me. So as she's driving home, she leaves a store series of very angry voicemails, calling John o' Keefe a pervert, telling him to go fuck himself, telling him that he's a loser. Telling him that she's gonna leave his niece and nephew, who he has custody over, home alone and she's gonna go back to her own place because she's over this. She does not indeed do any of that. She goes back to John's house where John's niece is sleeping. And she falls asleep on the couch and wakes up at 4 and he's still not home. She calls Jen McCabe and she says, hey, John's not home. Jen McCabe tells her something along the lines of, what are you talking about? He Never came to 34 Fairview. So Karen naturally starts freaking out, calls John's childhood best friend, who he also went to prom with, Carrie Roberts, and they go on like a little early morning search party through a blizzard. This is blizzard conditions at this point. It wasn't last night when they got to 34 Fairview, but it is this morning. They start driving all over the place. And Carrie and Jen say Karen's weird. As they're driving back to 34 Fairview. They say that Karen just starts screaming, I see him. I see him. She's kicking at the door to get out. She runs outside into the snow, onto the front lawn of Brian Albert's house. And they just see a mound of snow. They get out the car, they say they move the snow off and there is John o' Keefe laying in the snow. Paramedics are called to the scene. Police officers are called to the scene. And it becomes this whole ordeal of. Initially people thought. Well, people didn't really know what to think. They just knew that a police officer was found deceased in front of the lawn of another Boston cop. And it doesn't make any sense. He's got some injuries to his head and his arms that don't make any sense. It doesn't make sense how he ended up in the front lawn. Did he go in the house? Did he not go in the house? That's the biggest debate. When law enforcement officers, they start interviewing witnesses that were inside the house, they all say John o' Keefe never came in the house. So that must mean that Karen is the last person that knows what happened to John. Right? Well, she's saying, no, he went into the house. Now, who are we to believe in this situation? You would think maybe it's numbers, maybe it's all the people in the house. There's a handful of them versus just Karen. Right. You would initially think that. However, everyone in this town is connected. All these investigating officers here in this dark blue color, they're all somehow friendly with the Albert family. The Albert family is the most well connected family in the little town of Canton, Massachusetts. His brother Kevin Albert is a Canton police detective. His other brother, Chris Albert is one of five Canton select men who oversee the entire Canton Police Department, then the state troopers. So there's many different law enforcement agencies that get involved. The state troopers, they're not Canton pd, They're Massachusetts State Police. Right. However, they are all somehow connected to Julie Albert, who's Chris Albert's wife. So they're all interwoven. Interconnected. Everybody went to high school with one another. Everybody's kids play on the same baseball team together. Everybody is friends with everybody except for Karen. Karen is not friends with any of these people. And all of these people have now decided that Karen ran over John o' Keefe in the front lawn of another Boston cop's home, drove home, leaving angry voicemails, and left her boyfriend of two years to die on the lot. That is the theory. But is that really what happened February 26, 2022. So this is almost nearly exactly a month after John o' Keefe has passed. At this point, Karen has been arrested, released on bail. So there's a lot developing. But there is this picture taken of three guys at a bar, and the only one that really matters is the guy in the middle. And these. These guys, I don't even know if I can call them guys. They look incredibly young. They look like boys. Now, the guy in the middle, he's got a black baseball cap on backwards. He's got both of his arms around his friends. They look. They look like fat boys. And his right hand, if you look at his right hand, his right knuckles are just bright red.
- [14:29]
Co-Host
Pink knuckles are pink.
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Host
Knuckles are pink.
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Co-Host
Like it was injured.
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Host
Yeah. How would your knuckles get pink?
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Co-Host
Like you punch something, right?
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Host
And you got to punch something very hard for Them to stay pink, right?
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Co-Host
Yeah.
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Host
Now that guy in the middle is none other than 17 year old Colin Albert son. 17, 17. Son of Chris Albert and Julie Albert. So this is the nephew of Brian Albert. Brian and Chris are brothers.
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Co-Host
Uh huh.
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Host
So this is the nephew of Brian and Nicole Albert. And netizens think that this 17 year old was the one that killed John O' Keefe that night. And Karen's attorneys seem to think so too because defense attorney Alan Jackson, he gets up on the podium and he starts asking Colin on the stand because Colin is called to testify by the government. What happened to your knuckles? In this picture Colin is sitting on the witness stand. He looks like a, like a regular fraternity brother but he's dressed in a collared shirt with a sweater on top. It's giving defendant but he's on the witness stand. I was at a party, a house party my senior year and I remember it being icy outside and it was kind of like a steep hill of a driveway and I was walking up the driveway. So he's walking up an icy driveway and I slipped down the driveway. I tried to catch myself but I had something in my left hand so I tried to brace myself with my right hand but I ended up landing straight on my knuckle. So he's so slipping on the ice and he lands on his knuckle.
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Co-Host
Crazy story like this.
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Host
And your reaction is the reaction of everyone, including Alan Jackson who says according to you, you fell on ice and injured your knuckles as we just saw in the photograph, just across the top of your knuckles. Correct. So you fell onto what? Pavement? Asphalt? Yeah. And you braced yourself when you fell your entire body weight by putting your right hand down in a fist and you injured your right fist, just the top of your knuckles on your right fist when you fell down. Correct. At this point Alan Jackson is known for being a pretty aggressive cross examiner during all of these trials because he will make a lot of comments that he's not allowed to make and the judge will keep. Have the judge Auntie Bev will keep having to strike his comments because at this point his story is so ridiculous. Alan Jackson hits a. Seriously? That's his question. Seriously. You fell your entire body weight on your right fist and you just injured the top portion of your knuckles. You didn't break a finger, you didn't break a knuckle, you didn't sprain your wrist, nothing. Correct. You ever been in a fight before? The defense shows yet another photo. There is a picture of Colin with his arm around another person and his Knuckles are scratched up again, and it's always just the right hand. So it's not the left and the right. It's just his right hand. And that picture was apparently taken just a few days after John's death. So there's a picture taken a few days after John's death where his knuckles are pink, and then another one taken a month after where his knuckles are pink. Why are his knuckles injured and just on his right hand. Now, why is this relevant? That's what everyone's trying to figure out. Because initially, when everyone inside the house during this Little Blizzard party, January 29, 2022, nobody mentions Colin being inside that house. He is never mentioned, not once by any of the partygoers. Well, actually, one partygoer, this one right here, Julie Nagle, friend of birthday boy Brian Albert Jr. Julie Nagle does mention to state trooper Proctor that Colin was in the house that night. You know what state trooper Proctor does? He omits that from his initial reports. So it seems like every single person involved does not want Colin to be at the house.
- [18:36]
Co-Host
That is crazy. So how did we find out?
- [18:38]
Host
Julie said that Karen ends up hiring a private investigator and they start going door to door to try and see if there is absolutely anyone who saw or heard absolutely anything. And this is when a local mentions. So his daughter allegedly dated Colin Albert at one point and she was talking about how he was there. He was there at 34 Fairview that night. And so Karen is like, that's actually crazy because nobody puts him there at all, ever.
- [19:08]
Co-Host
And is that, you know, the private investigator. Is that information usable in court or is it just their own little.
- [19:16]
Host
I think it came out before the trial happened. So eventually everyone was like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, he was there. Yeah, yeah, I see, I see. So when everyone testifies now they're like, yeah, he was there, but he left exactly at 12:10am which is before John O' Keefe even gets to the house. So there's a lot that people have to say about Colin Albert, but it is confirmed he was there the night that John o' Keefe died. So why is everyone leaving him out of the initial witness list? Like, is that intentional? And that also doesn't explain how in 2023, so this is a year after John's passing, during a federal grand jury, Colin shows up, he's forced to be there. He's forced to testify. And the person asking questions notices that his knuckles, specifically his right hand knuckles were. Are scraped up still. So it seems like another injury just to his right Hand. Now everybody's wondering, how often does this little kid get into fights? And did he get into a fight with John the night that John died? Is he the one that everyone here, all the McAlberts are trying to protect, or are they trying to protect Brian Higgins?
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Co-Host
Was Colin Albert the only person that everyone's omitting or.
- [20:29]
Host
Yes. And there is an invisible car with Brian Higgins. So there's a lot happening with these two. And people have different theories. Some people think the McAlberts are protecting Brian Higgins. Some people think the McAlberts are Protecting Colin. Some people think it's combination of both. Okay, because there is a picture of Colin with swollen knuckles. But there's also a picture of Brian Higgins stopping by the Canton Police Department right after leaving the party. He leaves 34 Fairview Road. He's off duty, he's drunk, and he drives to Canton Police Department. He's an ATF agent, but he's got an office at the Canton Police Department. Because his best friend is the chief of the Canton police.
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Co-Host
So middle of the night.
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Host
Yeah.
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Co-Host
He went into the office for what.
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Host
One in the morning, he goes into the office. He says he's going in there to move his cars. But he spends quite a bit of time in the police station. And on top of that, there is some CCTV footage that is released. And some people have zoomed in and they believe that his knuckles look a little swollen and red. What? Okay, there is this reality show. It's a TV series called Boston's Finest. It lasted two seasons. It's about Boston police officers. Now, I'm just gonna give you a quick recap of all the different law enforcement agencies investigating and or involved in this. So you've got Boston police, which is John o' Keefe was a Boston police officer. And then Brian Albert is part of Boston pd. He is the head of the fugitive unit, or he was. And then you've got the Canton police. This all happens in the town of Canton. So they commute to work in Boston. But this is 30 minutes away in Canton. So the chief of police is Kenneth. And then a lot of these people in dark blue. So Sean Good, Paul Gallagher, Michael Link. These are all Canton police officers, as well as Kevin Albert. And then you've got the Massachusetts State Police. So you went from local town, then you got big city of Boston, and then now you got the state of Massachusetts. You have these three state troopers. Tully Buchanak and Proctor. Proctor, do you remember him from part one? No. Nudes. Proctor. Exactly. Okay, so these are the three and then you've got a fourth agency, the feds, the FBI are investigating the investigation into John o' Keefe's death. They're not even just investigating John o' Keeffe's death. They're investigating the investigation into his death. Because all these people are shady. Every single one here. Maybe not the people in the white backgrounds, but all the dark blue wall of shame at this point. And we're going to get more in depth in part three because the way that these people are connected is criminal.
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Co-Host
And then the dark blue background are the ones that's currently working on the case. And the light blues are the official officers that. That's not investigating the case, but they.
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Host
Are involved in the case.
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Co-Host
Right?
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Host
Right, yes. So the dark blue are investigating officers. Now, this show is kind of like a documentary. It's like a day in my life as a Boston cop. I mean, with a lot more background music. It's filmed really well. And featured on there consistently is Brian Albert, a much younger Brian Albert. He is the owner of 34 Fairview, Boston Cop, head of fugitive unit. In the show, he, he says a lot of really intense things, like he gives a lot of quippy one liners. Violent felons, they will do just about anything to get away. Some are going to try to run, some are going to try to hide. Sometimes it's diving out windows. They're going to do whatever they can to avoid capture. Throughout season one, you see Brian Albert trying to lead his team and make sure they're not in trouble. And he says about conducting search warrants in people's homes, it's one of the most dangerous things you can do is go into somebody else's house. He says, the person you're looking for, that's their castle. If they wanted to assault you, they know the places to hide. Sometimes you take a deep breath, you stick your head in there and just hope that you don't hear a pop. They explain that finding fugitives is very meticulous work. I mean, you're looking for people that other cops couldn't find. He says, we're the unit that gets called when somebody's wanted for a serious crime, mostly violent crimes, and they're on the run. That's our specialty. That's the purpose of our unit. And we do a pretty good job at it. It's not easy, but there's a method to the madness. And he gives a few tips throughout the show. So in the show, Brian Albert states the rule is simple. You follow the love interest, Brian Higgins, AKA ATF Brian, he's a federal agent. He's a cop too. So if we do a cop headcount at this point, there's a lot. And not including the investigating ones, you've got Brian Albert, besties with Brian Higgins.
- [25:04]
Co-Host
So they're just friends? Close friends?
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Host
Yeah, they're just close friends. They're like drinking buddies.
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Co-Host
Okay.
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Host
And so you've got these two. Then you've got John o', Keefe, Chris Albert, Kevin Albert. There's a lot of cop connections. This guy is a federal agent in the Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. It feels like nobody really knows what an ATF agent does. Some say that they take down massive gun running organizations. Others say, they say they do that, but they don't actually do anything. So they're basically a federal gang agency is what they say. You can interpret that however you want. Some people interpret that as they take down gangs because gangs are often, you know, they typically have violent firearms and other weapons in their possession or they're a gang of agents and they basically just shoot dogs. There have been numerous incidents where pet dogs have been injured or shot and killed during ATF raids. And do you remember Waco? ATF had a 51 day standoff with a cult in Waco, Texas, and ultimately it ended with 70 people dying, including children. And some of the first shots fired by ATF were aimed at the pet dogs in the compound. And it's becoming like this running joke in law enforcement communities. Apparently when the ATF comes, hide your dogs. Now, ATF Bryan is stationed in Canton, but he's a federal agent. He does not work for Canton pd. He does not work for Boston PD or with the state troopers. He is familiar with a lot of them, though. Like, he's friends with all these guys. These are the people that he hangs out with because he lives in Canton. And he also knows John o'. Keefe. They've known each other for maybe a year. I mean, they've never really worked together, but they run in the same circles. They go to the same bars. That's how they've met. Now, I have no idea how friendship works in this small town because ATF Brian says that he wasn't that close to John. But exactly two weeks before John's death, ATF Brian is over at John o' Keefe's house watching a Patriots game. There's even text messages from that night where John and ATF Bryan are texting. You know, John is like, was it really necessary to introduce Hennessy xo ADF Brian is like, was I really Playing video games. John says, I blame Karen. Please tell me I didn't break your nephew's video game. If I did, I will replace it. Did I throw a controller or some shit? I don't think so. Which makes it sound like they had a good night. Just boys watching sports, getting drunk, breaking things. But it's also the day that ATF Brian Higgins and Karen kiss behind John o' Keeffe's back. So exactly two weeks before John O. Keefe's passing, they share a kiss inside John's house.
- [27:48]
Co-Host
How did we find out about that?
- [27:50]
Host
He tells us in court. Oh, yeah. So January 12, 2022.
- [27:55]
Co-Host
This is like two weeks before, right?
- [27:58]
Host
Yeah, like two and a half weeks before John O' Keeffe's passing. At around 8:27pm, he gets a text message. Brian Higgins gets a text message from a random. The text reads, hey, Brian, it's Weed Whacker. He text back, question mark, what do you mean, weed Whacker? But ATF Brian is testifying. I mean, I kind of knew who it was because that was my nickname for her. Karen Reed. I mean, he says, it's a funny story. He was driving around in his work car, so all the windows are tinted. And he sees Karen outside using a weed whacker. It's like a little machine that cuts the weeds. And he honks at her, and she flicks him off.
- [28:34]
Co-Host
Off.
- [28:35]
Host
She has no clue who it is. It's just like a random person honking at her. So he drives back around. He u turns to be like, oh, wait, hey, Karen, I'm, you know, John's friend Brian. ATF Brian. I didn't mean to, like, freak you out, but she starts screaming at the car, not knowing it's ATF Brian. And she says, get the fuck away from me. My husband's a Boston cop. ATF Brian rolls the window all the way down, and that's when she's like, oh, okay, never mind. You're John's friend. I didn't know.
- [29:03]
Co-Host
This was a while ago. Yes. Okay.
- [29:05]
Host
So that is why she gets the funny nickname of Weed Whacker. And she texts him, hey, Brian, it's Weed Whacker. He responds, question mark. And I will say that every single text message in this thread is read out loud by Brian Higgins, who has a very strong Boston accent. And it's just like the. It's a very interesting combination of his very seriousness and his red face. But also the nature of the text messages are uncomfortable. Very uncomfortable. Because I don't know why they text like teenage kids. He texts a picture of a Smirnoff screwdriver. It's an alcoholic beverage. And then capital yo, yo. There's no response. And the next day, ATF Brian texts Karen, did you try these Smirnoff screwdrivers? I stopped at the Hilly, which is a local restaurant, for one last night. Haha. How did you get my digits? Karen says, melissa. Haha. I thought you creeped John's phone. Haha. No way. And she does a girl with the crossed arms emoji. I was the last person in Greater Canton who didn't have your number. I think even Carrie has it. Side note, not Carrie Roberts, a different Carrie. And he's like, what? I just don't give out my personal number to anyone. How would Kerry have my number? I don't know. Melissa had it. Eventually they start talking back about the nickname and she says, you know, I do prefer weed whacker. He says, that's the thing about nicknames. You don't have a say. I know. They need to happen organically. I'm the queen of nicknames.
- [30:33]
Co-Host
Wait, so they met, I'm assuming, months ago?
- [30:36]
Host
They met months ago at a bar through John o'. Keefe. So John o' Keefe and ATF Brian run in the same circles. And John Okeefe would introduce Karen to all of his friends. And so Karen's not really part of this cop world. It's through John o' Keefe that she meets all these people.
- [30:51]
Co-Host
Yeah. Yeah. And one day he drove by. Beep beep. They talked. I'm assuming soon after, Karen text him. And they sound flirtatious.
- [31:00]
Host
Very flirtatious.
- [31:01]
Co-Host
Okay.
- [31:02]
Host
Karen just changes the topic. Abruptly, we were tossing around the idea of a short vacay with another couple. Wanted to see if you were game. Vacation where? I was just gonna rent a beach house in Fort Lauderdale. Something quick and easy. And the queen of vacays too. Always a good time. He's like, I'm going to Nashville next month, 19th to the 21st, for a benefit. One of our guys got shot in the head. You guys should come. Just like a crazy text message to send. Later on January 13, Karen sends a picture of a guy struggling to use a weed whacker and texts ATF Brian, you're not a creep. And he says, nope, you're kind of a loner. Which I used to be. No, not really. I have tons of buddies, but I only let a handful of friends in that I'm tight with. So you think you've got me all figured Out. Karen says, yeah, I said loner, not loser. I assume you know a lot of people. You can never really figure anyone out completely. Your dad died when you were young. He died in March of 2020. I'm so not a loser. You won't figure me out. Lol. No one's a loser. I just didn't mean loner to imply friendless. I'm sorry, that sounds recent. It wasn't. Covid, was it? Cancer. I know you date girls who don't lock the house behind them, and you're private and observant. And then she says, I'm sorry, what kind? So they're having like simultaneous conversations. Talking about his dad's passing, but also talking about Brian's dating habits. Lung, brain, kidney, pelvis. How did you know all those things? You're funny.
- [32:37]
Co-Host
Mm.
- [32:38]
Host
Text messages are a lot.
- [32:39]
Co-Host
Yeah.
- [32:40]
Host
Yikes. Wow, that's rough. Jesus. I'm sorry. We chat a lot at the Hillside. Don't be sorry. Life is hard sometimes. I always figure it out. Who chats? Life is hard, but losing people is the hardest. So I'm sorry. WeChat. That's all you got? WeChat? Sure. I mean, you're from Brockton. Spit it out. You and I chatted about the girl who kept forgetting to lock the door. Oh, she's been out of play for like three months now. And so they're like having this flirtation of talking about people that are, quote, out of rotation in ATF Bryan's circle of girls. Yeah. And ATF Bryan finally tells her that he got a Saturday invite from John o' Keefe to come to John O. Keefes house that Saturday to watch the Patriots game. Karen is like. Did you say yes? Not yet. What did you say, Mr. Elusive? No, I don't want to intrude on your couples night. Haha. I'm shy. We prefer to hang out with non couples. Bob Gallery is probably coming too, solo. We'll probably play cards or something at one point. So I'm inviting you. Haha. Later, Karen texts him. John said, quote, brian's being wishy washy. Haha. Did you tell him you texted me? No. ATF Brian gives a thumbs up. Up. And this is when we head into very. I would say. Okay, so Karen is a little sensitive to the word affair because she's saying, you know, I'm not married. John o' Keeffe's not married. We're not married. It's not really an affair. And she also says that John o' Keefe was allegedly flirting with other Girls, too. So she feels like it's a. It's affair is a strong word, but we do get into, like, that emotional cheating territory where she says, well, don't be so anti couple. Most couples don't even like each other. He says, name a few. Name a few. I don't know all of them, but they all want to hang out with single people. Later in the messages, it seems like this might be when he comes over for the Patriots game, because ATF Brian texts Karen, Foul ball. She texts him, you stink. He says, you suck and you're double trouble. She responds, you're hot. Are you serious or are you messing with me? No, I'm serious. Feeling is mutual. Is that bad? So this is Brian. He's like, I also feel like you're so hot. Is that bad? Because I'm friends with John o'. Keefe. How long have you thought about that? And she's like, are you okay driving? You don't want to just stay here? So Karen is offering for Brian to stay at John o' Keefe's house with them.
- [35:14]
Co-Host
He's not drunk, right?
- [35:15]
Host
Yeah, I'm fine. I have an office at the police station. You didn't answer the question. She says, I'd rather you stay here. Now, ATF Bryan testifies on the stand that as he's leaving John o' Keeffe's house that night, he says goodbye to John. And John might have gone and used the restroom or something. He's not entirely sure. But he says, as we were walking out, the defendant planted a kiss on me. He's asked by the prosecution, lally, how did she kiss you? Not like a friend. He says it was lip to lip, like a romantic kiss. ATF Bryan says he was taken aback because it just was not something that he was expecting. And later he texts Karen, I think you're messing with me. Why do you think that? Because this is so out of left field. Where did these feelings come from? I just think you're like me. Meaning, do you have your own kids? I have no kids. How am I like you? Um, hello? Aren't we alike? I think so. So why did you get my number and reach out to me? Shoot straight with me. I told you, I just think we're alike. Yes, Agree. I don't know. Shouldn't you know? Brian admits that he's had a crush on Karen since the first time he met her. And she responds with, this is like the most lukewarm confession of a crush. I don't know. You're just my type. You think you can handle me? I thought you were happy. How do you know if I'm happy? I just assumed. Are you hard to handle? What do you like about me? And this is when Karen has sent the now viral text message where Brian says, what do you like about me? And Karen Reid responds wholeheartedly, I just feel like you're from my neighborhood.
- [37:04]
Co-Host
Wait, what does that mean?
- [37:05]
Host
Nobody knows. It's like, the most lukewarm confession of interest that the world has ever heard in a murder trial. Like, usually you have, like, very passionate text messages that the prosecutor is trying to bring up. And it's just like, I feel like you're from my neighborhood. And people didn't know how to respond because the severity of the context that these text messages are being read in is very severe. This is a murder trial. But at the same time, it's like, it's very hard to wrap your mind around that. These are the text messages that everybody has to treat very seriously because the energy in the courtroom is also very.
- [37:44]
Co-Host
Okay, so, like, Adam Lally just didn't follow up much on that?
- [37:49]
Host
No, she's just like, why do I like you? We're, like, from the same zip code, bro. Like, what do you want me to say? That's the energy. And he says, ditto. Ditto, Ditto. He says, yeah, ditto. And she says, I just think you're hot. Brian's all, you really think that? I have always thought that about you. What? You're hot, smart, witty, but I didn't think you were interested. Witty? Yeah. Meaning quick with a response. Tell me why you got my number and reached out to me. I just thought we were the same and from the same neighborhood. Are you afraid to say what's on your mind? This whole text message exchange is very hard to listen to. I think that the government thought it was going to have the same effect as Michael Proctor reading out his messages of no nudes so far and all of these things. But I think the general energy of these two messaging each other, it's bad. I do think it's bad because Karen is clearly having a relationship to some degree outside of her relationship with John o'. Keefe. And she's accused of murdering John o'. Keefe. So it is bad. It is serious. However, it feels almost juvenile when you see this ATF agent on the stand reading them out loud one by one. And it also seems like both parties are into it. Even ATF Bryan. I mean, this is his friend's girlfriend, and he's just, quote, I will give you what you want. How are you texting me right now? Are you leaving me hanging? How am I texting? Is everyone asleep? I'm just wide awake on my phone. Yeah, they're asleep. I should have stayed. Lol. So now what? Yeah, you should have stayed. But he's saying, that would have been so distracting. Now what? He keeps asking things like, now what? Why'd you get my number? What do you see in me? And Karen is like, now what? What? Ball's in your court. What do you want? Loaded question. What do you want? I asked you. Nope. You initiated this. Spit it out. Hey, we're single and we don't have kids. We can do whatever we want. Don't you have a boyfriend? Karen just completely changes the topic. And she says, I'm glad you came over tonight to watch the Patriots game. And she does, like, a shy, blushing emoji. And he says, me too. Balls in your court. What do you want? Karen, you looked great tonight. It almost seems like he's a little bit more excited about the situation than Karen is. Karen seems, if anything, a little non committal. I know that she started the interactions, but it. I mean, I don't know. As a girl reading it, it just sounds like she's not that into it. But you tell me in the comments and she's like, I looked great. You're so full of it. I think you're hot. I've always thought that. Just never revealed my thoughts. And Karen says, I'm hot for the hillside. The area, low comps. Knock it off. You're hot, period. Are you glad you walked me out? So he's now asking about the kiss they shared. And she's like, um, ta, ta, ta. Yes. Smiley face. Are you? And it's just the whole thing is uncomfortable. And he just keeps saying things like, feeling is mutual. I never saw this coming. Why? Because I just assumed you were happy with your situation. I was, but things have deteriorated. How so? It's very, very complicated. So at this point, if. Quick reminder, John o' Keefe has two siblings, Paul o' Keefe and Kristin. Now, his sister passed away from cancer. She left behind a daughter and a son. And then a few months after her husband passed away, so he took on his niece and nephew. He took custody over them. He's raising them as his own. And Karen has been dating John o' Keeffe for the past two years now. And she says, he and I dated when we were kids. So prior to this, they had actually dated.
- [41:46]
Co-Host
Oh, when they were young.
- [41:47]
Host
Yeah, very briefly. And Then during the pandemic, Karen came back into town, and he was sending Facebook messages to all of his ex girlfriends. And Karen actually thought, like, whoa, why are you messaging me when your whole Facebook page is filled with you and children, like, you probably have a wife? And then she reconnected with him, found out that he had taken in his niece and nephew, and that's how they rekindled their whole relationship. We're gonna go into that in the next part because there's a whole thing with how John o' Keeffe's family interacts with her the day that he passes away. And she also gets admitted into the hospital. She gets sectioned into the hospital, meaning they think that she's a danger to herself. She says, it's very complicated. He and I dated when we were kids, and then his sister died and everything got fucked up. He seems very into you. Yeah, but where is that? I mean, I've had all my shit here for a couple of years, and my house has been vacant, but I'd like to get closer to the water. Are you breaking up or are you staying here? I don't know. He hooked up with another girl on vacation. I'm very close to his niece, and it's all a very fucked up situation. When was that? And how did you find out he hooked up? I don't want to complicate your situation. We went away for New Year's, the four of us. So she's saying it was her, John and the two kids. I put the kids to bed and found him in the lobby of our hotel. All over one of our friends. Whatever. It doesn't matter. It does matter. Did they bang? Does that matter? Sorry, I was just asking. I was just trying to figure shit out. It doesn't really matter. Okay, I won't ask again. I don't care. It doesn't matter. Okay. Hear you loud and clear, Karen. Uh, okay. Why are you getting your thong all twisted up over simple questions? She responds, I'm not. Am I? You're kind of getting defensive. Not at all. Eventually, Karen asks what Brian Higgins wants, and he responds he wants the real deal. To which she's kind of cynical. She says it doesn't exist. Sometimes it's a lot. A lot? Why? He's, like, asking her a lot. Why? Because I went from being solo to trying to give attention to kids who aren't mine, and I never wanted kids. I thought you were happy in this relationship. Everybody is happy at the Hillside. Oh, God. You avoid things. It's just a very complicated dynamic with the four of us. He isn't cut out for what he's doing. And the kids present constant issues. I think he believes he's doing the right thing. Well, of course he is, but his heart isn't in it. It's only because he was very, very close with his sister. I know kind of how you feel. I was married, so Brian was married previously and his ex wife had brought in a child from a previous marriage. And he said that he's been divorced since and he has no kids anymore because they got a divorce. And she says, I tried very hard, but the kids are very spoiled. They're not my family. My parents keep telling me I'd feel differently if they were mine or my own sisters, you know? Then I told you he got sloppy and drunk on New Year's Eve while we were away, and that's really affected me. What exactly did he do? I never got married and now somehow I'm arguing with someone about raising kids. Eye rolling emojis. Why don't you just tell me? He was a puddle all day and then he disappeared. Then I found him all over our friend's sister in the lobby of our hotel and she's gross, which I think may actually be worse. Not sure. Oh, God. Did they bang? I'm not sure. I was with the kids, so I was. I was with the kids celebrating New Year's without him, which shouldn't be my role, but I doubt that they did it. I mean, he was a mess. Was it the first time with her? Do you think there was other? I don't really think there were others. I'm with him all the time. He never seems to want to go anywhere without me. But honestly, the issues with the kids bother me more than him actually cheating. They are constant. And it feels like a lose lose genuinely is starting to feel like Karen is just using him as a therapist and not actually interested in Brian Higgins at all. And he even notices that you clearly have a lot of feelings swarming inside of you. Yeah, it's very complicated. Sorry for the rant. You can vent, babe. Oh, yeah.
- [45:56]
Co-Host
Wait, this is all from the night? The same night?
- [45:59]
Host
Yeah.
- [45:59]
Co-Host
Dang.
- [46:00]
Host
It's like in the span of nine days they go through all of this and she's like, basically, I just feel like I spread myself too thin and sometimes it's thankless. Now I will say there might be some validity to her feelings. I don't think that. I'm not saying any of these messages are appropriate. However, there were rumors in Canton and Jen had Semi confirmed it that everybody called Karen. And this is so Mean Girl coded. A glorified babysitter for John o'. Keefe.
- [46:30]
Co-Host
Really? How did we find out? Jen said that.
- [46:33]
Host
Jen was like, yeah, that's what Carrie said about her. Carrie Roberts, John o' Keefe's childhood best friend.
- [46:40]
Co-Host
Got it.
- [46:42]
Host
And so she's saying, I mean, you probably felt that way too when you were married. I did. I mean, at times. But it was one kid, not two, thankfully. Do you want to grab a drink? So they start kind of planning to hang out at one point. And there are suspicions. Now, Karen has spoken out in a documentary about these text messages, and she said it was bad. She said, first of all, she has only ever met ATF Brian at bars in bar lighting. Okay. She says it's very different from not bar lighting. And on top of that, crazy. Yeah, that's a crazy statement. And on top of that, she says she's not proud of it, but she was just very emotionally insecure. And I can see how that portrays in the text messages. Like, I can see her, like, it doesn't feel disconnected from the text messages. There are certain points where he's saying, like, do you get angry when you don't get your way? And she. She texts him. I rarely ever get my way. So it seems like all of her messages are a little bit on the more depressing side. However, this message, I think a lot of. A lot of people, a lot of netizens, feel that Karen was just trying to use Brian to get John to like her more or to chase after her more or want her more. And is that something that we should be doing? Probably not. But the message reads, john has showed me about five times the ring video of me walking you out on Saturday. My voice and accent are killing me. Softly throwing up emojis.
- [48:13]
Co-Host
Wait, John has show Karen. Wait, what?
- [48:17]
Host
Ring video of her walking Brian Higgins out of his house the day of the Patriots game.
- [48:24]
Co-Host
That's weird.
- [48:25]
Host
And he says, what? Yeah, he has cameras everywhere. You cops, rolling eye emoji.
- [48:31]
Co-Host
Like, the kissing thing, too.
- [48:33]
Host
He's freaking out. He says, jesus. And then Karen says, he's like, christ, are you guys hooking up? Oh, my God. Great. I don't need drama, dude. No, it's fine. Seriously. I'm serious. You. You legit planted one on me, saying, you literally kissed me. And Karen says, I know where the cameras are anyway. Duh.
- [48:56]
Co-Host
Wait, so she's implying the kiss is not on there?
- [48:58]
Host
Yeah, implying the kiss is not on there. But I guess that they were appearing friendly.
- [49:02]
Co-Host
Right, right.
- [49:03]
Host
That John is saying something to her about it. And the way that she's texting almost seems like. Like that was the purpose. Right. It's kind of the vibe.
- [49:11]
Co-Host
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like she's not bothered by it.
- [49:14]
Host
Yeah.
- [49:14]
Co-Host
Hey, by the way, John was jealous about it.
- [49:16]
Host
She's not like keep it on the. Like, keep it down low. Don't say anything. He's already on to us. Like she's not saying any of that. It almost seems like hehe, it worked. Is the energy of the text.
- [49:26]
Co-Host
And Brian is feeling that too. Right? You planned it on me. Like.
- [49:30]
Host
Yeah. He seems a little more startled than Karen does. And she says I know where all the cameras are. And he's like, so your slick move wasn't on there? Of course not. Oh my God, I almost threw up. It was just a peck. Anyway, I kissed Carrie and gay Jeff too. Yeah. Weak. I agree. He's saying the kiss was weak. Lol. Funny. So now he is jealous of me. No, I told you he likes you a lot. Which makes it worse. You said or did something at the bar last week. And he goes, I like Brian more and more. He's a good dude too. Yeah, he is funny. What's your end game? What do you want from me? You will just confuse the shit out of yourself. Because I'm a lot of fun. And so Karen is just like, what is happening right now? They start texting about how they're maybe gonna go out for drinks or go to each other's places for drinks. Karen even says, I'm 42. I know what happens when you invite someone over for a drink. He calls her a master of avoidance. And they have this little like back in and forth non stop.
- [50:31]
Co-Host
So Karen's saying that I know what happens if we go to our houses. And she's not saying yes to the house.
- [50:37]
Host
She does eventually go to ATF Brian's house. And he says it was really uncomfortable and awkward. Like they just repeat the same conversations that they were having over text message. And again, this is why a lot of netizens feel like. Was it appropriate for Karen to do this? Absolutely not. Was this a good thing to do? I don't know. But it does indeed feel like she is not interested in Brian Higgins.
- [51:01]
Co-Host
Like. Like the intention, not the intention. What is it? Like is there a motive, for example, Right. For Karen to. Let's say murder China Keefe for a another guy?
- [51:13]
Host
That's kind of text message.
- [51:15]
Co-Host
Yeah.
- [51:15]
Host
So that's kind of how the prosecution is showing it. Like she's ready to move on. She doesn't like John o', Keefe, but when you actually read the text, text messages, it's kind of. It seems like she maybe likes John o' Keefe a little too much.
- [51:29]
Co-Host
Right? Right. There's no passion. There's no.
- [51:32]
Host
And maybe it's toxic. I think that's a subjective word for a relationship. Some people are like, no, I would do the same thing. Some people are like, that is crazy. It's toxic. But toxic doesn't mean you're a killer.
- [51:42]
Co-Host
Right?
- [51:42]
Host
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And all of this comes to a climax where she goes over to his house, they share a drink and they have this same conversation. And Brian says it was awkward and she just eventually leaves and it was just a weird vibe. There's a few more messages exchanged where it appears that Karen is pretty fully checked out until he texts her. At the waterfall the night of, right before they all go to 34 Fairview. Brian Higgins is at the Waterfall Bar. He came with Brian, Albert. Karen and John show up. And Karen ignores him, per the CCTV footage. Per testimonies, she doesn't go anywhere near him. John says hi to Brian Higgins. Karen does not. She does not want to talk to him. She doesn't want to say hi to him. Whether it's she doesn't want to make John jealous now or whether she just is so over him, it's unclear. But he texts her. Well, she doesn't respond. The next day, around noon, Karen texts Brian Higgins for the very last time. January 29, 2022, around noon, she texts two words, John died. Brian Higgins never responds. Wow. Initially, netizens thought that this motive was for Karen to kill John o', Keefe, but that doesn't make sense, like what the prosecutors are saying. So, first of all, she texts ATF Brian that she. And she's talking to him about how she saw John kissing another girl on their New Year's Eve trip, which. More on that later. But she says that he cheated on her. So, by a lot of people's accounts, it seems like this text message is some sort of toxic revenge plan or an attempt to get John to pay more attention to her. Other people also point out that the prosecution is saying that Karen killed John in a crime of passion, if you will. They got into a fight in the car in front of 34 Fairview she ran him over. It was a drunken fight. However, people are saying if she wanted to kill him, it would have been on that New Year's Eve trip when she thought that he was hooking up with another girl. That would have been the time for the crime of passion. Not in front of another Boston police officer's house in the middle of the night, out of nowhere. And second, netizens think that the prosecution just wants to paint Karen as being overly jealous, thus pushing her to be homicidal. But she doesn't seem. She doesn't seem. I mean, she seems jealous. She seems perhaps a little toxic. But it does seem like she never really badmouths John ever. It seems more so like the circumstances are rough and she's upset, but it's never this, like, very vile. Like, I hate this. This guy, he can't fulfill me. Like, there's nothing negative per se. So while the prosecutors are trying to paint this as motive that Karen has to want to kill John o', Keefe, the defense are saying, actually, all these text messages do is prove that ATF Brian had motive, because wouldn't he benefit the Most if John O' Keefe is out of the picture? January 23, less than a week before John O' Keefe is found dead, Karen Reed ghosts ATF Brian to the point where he's just reaching out to try and get responses. He's texting her things like stranger, stranger, not once, but twice. And this is kind of a side note, but a lot of people also point out the fact that Karen and John had previously dated. They ended up breaking up and then reconnecting over the pandemic where they actually start seriously dating for two years. That to a lot of people, feels like Karen is not the type to be like, if I can't have you, no one can. Because they had already previously broken up once before. So it doesn't seem like she has this fixation on him that's like, only I can be with you, or else. So that's another thing that people have been pointing out. But on top of that, based off the text messages between Karen and ATF Bryan, it seems that John knows that maybe Karen and ATF Brian have a thing. And a lot of netizens have theorized perhaps John was lured to 34 Fairview, where Brian Higgins decides to confront him, and he is backed up by his best friend, Boston cop Brian Albert. And that is how John ends up dead. So whatever happens inside 34 Fairview, nobody thinks it's premeditated. Nobody thinks this is like this masterful plan because these are cops, they know that this is not a good plan. However, maybe a fight breaks out, a punch is thrown, he ends up dying from a fatal wound. And now these cops are like, we got to do something. That's the theory of people who buy into the, the conspiracy that the McAlberts had something to do with it. Now a big point of contention in this case is John o' Keefe's injuries do not make sense. With the prosecution theory, Karen reversing into John o', Keefe, him getting hit by her passenger side tail light. So right side tail light, he spins backwards, hits his head on the semi frozen ground because it's about to snow incapacitating him, leaving him dead in the snow. That's what the prosecutors are alleging Karen did. In the next episode we actually go into the accident reconstructionists, which you would think in a trial that's like the boring part, that's the part that nobody really cares about. There is so much unhinged drama between these accident reconstructionists. The prosecutors, the government, the Commonwealth, they hire a bunch of accident reconstructionists. The defense actually uses the accident reconstructionists that were hired by the FBI and they go head to head. There is so much drama of some of these people lying on their resumes, some of these people not even understanding their own data of the accident reconstruction, doing experiments that make zero sense. One of the guys is like, yeah, I tested it by using a freezer. I put the phone in the freezer. They're like, do you know what freezer temperature it was? Was. No. You don't think that's like the basic thing of like knowing the temperature if you're going to stick it into a freezer and see how it responds to being stuck in a freezer, he's like, well, I didn't think it mattered. I mean these people are absolutely ridiculous. It's like every single person. I don't know what is happening in this town but the injuries themselves, they don't make sense. With a car accident. Netizens think it lines up more with someone who's been in a fight. Dr. Scordi Bello is the medical examiner. She is the one that performs John o' Keeffe's autopsy. And now she is on the stand to tell everyone her findings. Now, side note, while autopsy photos are shown, Paul o', Keefe, John's brother, is seated. And like I said, this is a very small courtroom. Seated. I mean I'm not in the courtroom, but it just appears like a few feet, right? Yeah. And he's just staring down Karen the whole time. Dr. Scordy Bello notes that John O' Keefe has a small cut to his right upper eyelid. Abrasions on his nose, bleeding and swelling of both of his eyelids and eyes. He has these weird cuts on his arms. They.
- [61:44]
Co-Host
Look, I saw the photo. It. It's like, throughout his whole arm.
- [61:49]
Host
Yes. And they're all almost linear.
- [61:51]
Co-Host
Yeah.
- [61:52]
Host
So it's not jagged everywhere. Looks like if you were to get. And I'm gonna try to use an analogy that it's not applicable to this case. If you were to get, you know, those leaf rakers and then you were to just slice someone's arm because there's so many up and down his arm. Yeah, it kind of looks like that. He just has these weird lacerations on his arm and a few bruises on the back of his right hand, as well as a small scratch and vague bruises on his left hand. Now, side note, bleeding under the eyelids usually is an indicator of something really bad. They're called raccoon eyes. And Dr. Squorty Bello says bleeding around the eyes could signify that there's a much larger injury inside the skull. And it's not just bleeding of the eyes, which is exactly the case here. Ultimately, the cause of death for John is a giant laceration on the back of his head that is consistent with blunt force trauma, AKA hitting your head against a blunt object. It could be a microphone, it could be a dumbbell, it could be a stick. It could be the ground. It's just something that's not sharp. So it's not a stab, it's blunt force trauma. It could be the edge of a table. And Dr. Squorty Bello states that the injury to his head would not have instantly killed him, but it would have likely incapacitated him. It caused a fatal skull fracture. He had hemorrhaging, bleeding in the brain, and if he's out in the snow, then the hit to the back of the head incapacitates him. I mean, that's a cause for hypothermia. So she believes the laceration to the back of the head and hypothermia is the combination that caused his death. In comparing the blunt force trauma versus the hypothermia, Dr. Scordabello says, I do believe the blunt force trauma injuries were sustained first. These are not injuries that are immediately lethal. This is not something that would cause death in seconds. And therefore, Mr. O' Keefe may have been incapacitated by the injuries or knocked out, if you will, and was not able to get himself into warmer environments and therefore hypothermia set in. So in my opinion, I believe the impact, the injury to the head came first. Mr. O' Keefe was likely incapacitated or unable to move into a warmer environment, and then the hypothermia set in.
- [64:08]
Co-Host
So she's assuming that he got injured outside the house?
- [64:11]
Host
Well, no, because it's vague.
- [64:14]
Co-Host
Oh.
- [64:15]
Host
If that trauma comes first, then yeah. I mean, he could be injured outside the house. But a lot of people say it's vague enough that he could have been injured anywhere and then taken somewhere where it's cold and he can't get up and move.
- [64:28]
Co-Host
Got it.
- [64:29]
Host
Now, Prosecutor Lally asks Dr. Scordibello, what if any, opinion can you give or can you say in regard to the type of force or amount of force necessary to cause the fracture to the skull that you observed with regard to Mr. O'? Keefe? Can I say something about Mr. Lally? This man asks the most convoluted questions I've ever heard spoken in court. It's just kind of ridiculous. I don't understand any of these questions. He makes every single question so complicated for no reason. She responds, I can't really give you a number. I'm not a physicist. I can tell you that the skull is a pretty thick bone. It takes a considerable amount of force to fracture the skull. So that. That was a pretty considerable impact. Prosecutor Lally wants the jurors to know. Considerable impact. You know, like a car reversing at 24 miles per hour. But that's where everything stops making sense.
- [65:22]
Co-Host
Wait, so he said that car reversing a 24?
- [65:26]
Host
Yes, he keeps implying it.
- [65:28]
Co-Host
Why 24 miles per hour?
- [65:30]
Host
That will come in the next episode. But it's the data pulled from Karen's Lexus.
- [65:34]
Co-Host
Okay.
- [65:34]
Host
They claim right now, John's lower extremities, so his neck down pretty much does not have a lot of injuries. From his neck down, there's barely anything. Usually if you're hit by a car, the lower, lower extremities are highly susceptible to injury. You'll notice a lot of pelvic bone injuries. When pedestrians are hit with bigger cars like SUVs, you'll notice knee injuries, femur, the tibia, the fibula. I mean, John has none of those. He does have fractures near the ribs. His ribs are fractured, but those are very common locations for CPR associated fractures. So she's saying those rib fractures. She believes it's resuscitation. Efforts. She does not believe it was, was anything that caused his death or was at the time of impact of anything. The bruises on his knuckles would not be dissimilar to the ones found on Colin. They look like fighting bruises, like defensive wounds. And the ME testifies it could be, it could also be medical intervention. So one bruise on his right hand, there's this little prick at the center of the bruising. So it could have been them trying to attack, attempt to get an IV in there. That can cause bruising when they're being a little bit more forceful because your life is at stake. But some people are saying you could have gotten the bruise from a fight, they could have done it and bruised it more. It's not just exclusive to one or the other, it could have been both. So everything, even the medical report, is just up to debate. Now, she does say that she did not see any major signs of a significant altercation taking place. The bruising on the hands were faint and one of them had a pinpoint mark that could suggest it was the iv. But also a lot of people that are in very intense fights, they'll break their knuckles. She didn't see any broken bones in the hands of John o' Keefe or any broken nails, which are very typical. However, a lot of netizens argue if he sustained an injury that would have incapacitated him pretty quick on. That doesn't mean that he was in this prolonged ten minute fight.
- [67:33]
Co-Host
Mm.
- [67:34]
Host
The prosecution asks her, the injuries that you observed to the back of Mr. O' Keefe's head skull fracture, would that be consistent with a fall to the ground? It could be. Would that be consistent with being projected by an object saying a pedestrian collision and then striking your head on the ground also? What kind of question is that? Just ask, would that be consistent with a pedestrian hitting their head on the ground after being hit by a car? But instead, he says, would that be consistent with being projected by an object, say a pedestrian collision, and then striking your head on the ground? It's possible. And the injuries that you observed, would that be consistent with injuries that you observed in other cases of a pedestrian collision? They're not the classic pedestrian injuries that we've observed. No. Defense attorney Elizabeth Little does the cross and she asks if these injuries could also have been caused by, let's say, a dumbbell. You know, the Alberts, they love working out, they've got a home gym in their basement. Could it have been a dumbbell? Could be. She's also asking one by one, you know, it's very interesting. So there were no injuries to his shoulders, no chest area aside from the resuscitation attempts? No. No injuries to the torso, to his back, hips, pelvis, thighs, knees? Just feet. Ankles? None. None. So from the neck down, he did not have a single broken bone. Again, aside from those CPR related injuries, Correct? That's correct. Not a single fracture. Correct. Would you agree that John Okeefe's injuries, or lack thereof, are inconsistent with having been struck by a vehicle at 24 miles per hour? I would say it's likely and unlikely at the same time, depending on the position of the body and the vehicle in question. Would you agree that his injuries to his face are consistent with having being punched? That is a possibility. Your external examination notes also cite a tongue laceration on the right front of the victim's tongue. You'd agree that a tongue laceration can also be caused by blunt force trauma? Correct. And that could include something like a punch to the victim's face or jaw? That's a possibility. The laceration to the back of John's head had scratches. To which defense attorney Little asks, would you agree that someone could certainly get scratched on the back of their head if, for instance, once they were dragged on the ground? It is possible.
- [69:51]
Co-Host
So she's saying anything's possible? Basically, yeah.
- [69:54]
Host
Right. Now Dr. Squirtibello testifies that the injury to the back of his head, the fatal wound could have been a result of falling back onto concrete, onto grass. It could have been a result of being struck with a large object such as a baseball bat or a barbell, or hitting your head against the table. I mean, the world is the oyster. Like anything is possible at this point. But Elizabeth Little continues. And you'd agree that bruising to the back of hands is also consistent with defensive wounds? Yes, that is correct. In your expert medical opinion, is it possible for someone to get punched in the face hard enough to lose consciousness and fall backwards? It is possible. Now there are five classifications for manner of death on an autopsy. One natural, two accidental. So the fatal outcome is not intentional. Drug overdoses, elderly falls, motor vehicle accidents, three homicide, four self exit and five undetermined. Now this is very different from the cause of death, which would include more injury or impact focused facts. For example, John o' Keeffe's official cause of death on his certificate list is blunt impact injuries of head and hypothermia. But the manner of death is listed. Could not be determined. It's not homicide. Even though we are in the middle of a homicide trial. Now, she says, I am responsible for what goes on the death certificate. And unless I have enough information, clear and convincing evidence, I cannot determine a manner. The ME States that they don't necessarily think that the injuries indicate or are consistent with John getting hit by a car. Particularly the blunt force trauma to the back of the head could be consistent with. With pretty much anything. Now, the defense argues that this is very interesting because Dr. Squirty Bello actually receives a lot of information from the state troopers. The state troopers give her a lot of background information that can help her narrow down her medical findings. They don't influence her. She says they never tried to and she would never accept it if they did. Which makes sense because I think if they did influence her, she would have put it down as homicide or something. But she says, no, they gave me this information. I mean, they told her that Karen said, I hit him, I hit him. And they were talking about hitting him with the car. And she still ruled it could not be determined. So the defense is asking, you had all that information, you still were unable to conclude the manner of death from Mr. O', Keefe, correct? Correct. Netizens argue it just doesn't make sense. With the sentiment being, if you really wanted, I mean, sure, you could try to argue that he was hit by the car somehow. And there are these odd once in a blue moon instances where maybe the injuries are just not how they seem. Another thing a lot of netizens have been pointing out is that you see a lot of drunk driving statistics where the drunk driver themselves always come out alive, whereas the sober people who are following the laws, they end up passing. And I think per instance, it's different. But there have been anecdotal evidence and maybe there's scientific evidence out there, if you guys can inform me on that. But when you are drunk, your limbs are a lot more. They're not as stiff, and so your body takes the impact typically a tiny bit better. And so people are saying if he were to be hit and he was that drunk, it doesn't make sense. Typically drunk people are a little more jello y. He might have fallen, but this feels almost like he became stiff as a board and like twisted and just banged his head down instead of being a little more jello y, which is like you would fall onto your bottom first or something of that sort. But again, that. I don't know how scientific that is. It seems a lot more anecdotal. But people are like, maybe we can believe that. However, what are the injuries to his arms. It doesn't make sense. Now, the prosecutors, they're going to argue and we're going to get more into this in the next part, that when Karen hit him with the back of her car, her tail light shatters. And then she almost drags him by the arm with her cracked tail light. And then he spins around, does like a pirouet. They literally use that word, like a ballet spin. And then hits his head on the frozen ground and passes away. That's what they're trying to say, Dr. Scordi Bello says about those arms. We have this collection of linear abrasions that measured up to 7cm and extended from the upper arm down to the middle of the forearm. I mean, the arm has no broken bones, no fractures, just these lacerations. She states, I do not know how they came to be. Now defense attorney Little asks her, could they have been from a German shepherd's claws?
- [74:32]
Co-Host
Chloe Claus?
- [74:35]
Host
Possibly, yes. So this is why Chloe is going to be very important later. Now, some people are very split now this. I think at this point with the injuries, a lot of people believe that John o' Kee was killed inside the house. That's just the conspiracy out there. A lot of people just don't feasibly understand how these injuries came from the impact of a car. It just doesn't make sense to them. And I think it's not just this. It's the way everybody testifies all these, like, negative, weird associations with the no nudes yet, these random butt dials we're going to get into. Everybody's kind of suspicious. And then the injuries are not consistent. It's weird. Now some people are split on who killed John o' Keefe inside the house. And again, these are conspiracies. Some believe that it was Brian Higgins, others say it was Colin. But regardless, many netizens believe he went inside the house and he was killed inside the basement. And we're going to get into all of the pictures of the basement because the Alberts decide that they're suddenly going to renovate the basement and then put their house that they have lived in for generations. This house was owned by Brian Albert parents prior to this.
- [75:45]
Co-Host
Huh.
- [75:45]
Host
And they're gonna put it on the market and sell it.
- [75:48]
Co-Host
No freaking way. When?
- [75:50]
Host
Like months after.
- [75:53]
Co-Host
That is so shady.
- [75:55]
Host
Before the first trial. And the new owners, the new owners are gonna let Karen Reed's defense team into the house.
- [76:06]
Co-Host
Fascinating. That is crazy.
- [76:08]
Host
Yeah. Now, a lot of people think that John o' Keefe was killed in the basement. He was Dragged out through the basement doors that lead open to the backyard. And then there's a side fence that leads straight to the front lawn flagpole where his body was found. They believe that he was semi dragged or perhaps he was put inside a Ford edge and then put on the side of the road. We're gonna get to that in the next one. But they're saying that this all adds up because around 12:18am, John's phone shows that he unlocked his face ID. He is on the Messages app for about 11 seconds. Then he calls Jen McCabe. So we can assume that at 12:18am, Karen and John are driving to 34 Fairview. That call lasts 36 seconds. It's likely that he's asking for clarifying directions to 34 Fairview. That call ends. And at 12:20, John unlocks his phone again and starts using Waze, the map app. Then two minutes after that, at around 12:22, John gets a message from Brian Hagan that just reads, you come in here. Question mark, question mark, question mark. Then around 12:29, Jen calls John. And that call lasts around 51 seconds. 12:31, Jen text John, pull behind me. Now. John's phone is locked for the very last time at 12:33am and then Karen starts calling John O' Keefe at 12:33am, 12:34, 12:34, 12:35, 12:35, 12:30, 12:36, 12:37, all those calls go unanswered. That is when at 12:38, Karen starts leaving her series of rather angry voicemails. Then at 12:40, Jen texts John, hello. This is the first message that goes unread. The calls from Karen go unanswered. So from 12:33, John stops responding to any phone calls, any messages.
- [77:53]
Co-Host
So his phone stopped at 12:33.
- [77:56]
Host
Yes. Stop interaction. Now, at 12:42, another message pops up. Where are you? Then at 1:02, another message from Karen that reads, your kids are fucking alone. And then Another one at 104 from Karen to John. I'm back in Mansfield, which is where her house is, stating that she left John's niece alone at the house, which is not true. She's actually at John's house on the couch, waiting for him to get home. Now, here's where it gets interesting. From John's Apple health data, it shows that at 12:30am the phone takes 36 steps, which would be around 84ft. Measurements from the flagpole to the front door are 74ft. Now, flagpole to the street probably adds a few more feet. It seems like the right amount to get into the house. And then his apple health data shows him going up and down stairs to the basement.
- [78:48]
Co-Host
How many feet?
- [78:50]
Host
Three stairs. Three flights. Flights of stairs.
- [78:52]
Co-Host
Okay.
- [78:53]
Host
Now, according to the prosecution expert, they state that John's phone, after leaving Karen's car, never leaves the area of the flagpole. They say that it drops down onto the ground. And we're gonna get into this whole like phone battery temperature in the next one. In the next episode. But there are theories online that John made it into the house and was killed in the basement. And that perhaps Chloe, the German shepherd that's not great with strangers. And attacks John's arm because a fight has broken out, probably maybe conspiracy with her loved ones, people that she loves and a stranger. And she jumps into the fight, allegedly. And there is a bigger physical altercation. She causes those lacerations. And that is the theory. But when they run the DNA on John's shirt, there is no dog DNA, only pig DNA.
- [79:49]
Co-Host
What?
- [79:50]
Host
Where the hell are they getting pig DNA? Before I give you a full rundown of the full statements of everyone in the house, I have to do a quick rundown of the theories that are circulating on the Internet so you can decide whether if any of these theories make any sense at all. And if so, which one makes the most sense. So first theory is an insane theory. I'm gonna tell you that straight up. It's a house full of swingers. The theories come from speculations and rumors from local, alleged locals that Jen McCabe and Brian Albert. So Jen McCabe is sisters with Nicole. Nicole is married to Brian. That Jen McCabe and Brian Albert were having an affair, and that Brian Albert and Nicole Albert were swingers. That the McAlberts, they're swingers in this town. That's what they're saying. Now, the most interesting part of this theory that netizens grasp onto that makes the most sense is Karen asked John when they get to 34 Fairview, can you go inside and make sure we're welcome? Which is kind of a weird thing to ask. Some netizens will interpret this differently as, ooh, Karen got bad vibes from these people from the get go. Like she doesn't know if they like John or not. That's some interpretation. Others say, you don't think that's strange. Why would she ask him to go inside to make sure that they're welcome? Well, the theory is that Karen and John kind of knew that the Alberts were a swinging house. She didn't want to be a swinger, so she Asks John to go in there and make sure that they're not swinging because she doesn't want to go in and like do that. That's not what do. Now he goes inside and he doesn't come back out and he doesn't pick up her calls. And so she starts leaving these very angry voicemails because she believes he's in there doing some swinger stuff, doing stuff that he shouldn't be doing. Because why else, I mean, these conspiracy theorists are wondering why else would she call him at 1am calling him a pervert? Because it's a very specific thing. Some people were trying to think, oh, maybe she thought he walked two doors down to Bella's mom's house because he was dating Bella's mom at one point. But that's not a pervert. That's a cheater. That's someone that's messed up. That's not a pervert. A pervert is so specific.
- [81:57]
Co-Host
So this theory is kind of built.
- [81:58]
Host
Upon the text pervert, the angry voicemails of pervert. The weirdness of like, why would she send him in there? To go see if they're welcome. And also a lot of locals have come out anonymously online, so take it with a grain of salt. We can't confirm any of those. This, that these people are swingers.
- [82:17]
Co-Host
Okay, but isn't like the. Are the kids at home too? Brian Auburn Jr.
- [82:22]
Host
Yes, but she didn't. Karen didn't know that. Okay, so Karen's like, go in and make sure they're not swinging. Right? Now the theory though is how did the death occur then? Because he would walk in. They're not swinging. What then? The theory is that John walks in and Brian Higgins is demanding he go get Karen. Or maybe he's inciting John. He's drunk. He's like, hey, guess what? Karen texted me and Brian. Albert's egging it on. They're having this little moment of like, haha, John o'. Keefe. A fight breaks out. One punch. And John ends up dead. They start panicking. Karen thinks he's in there doing sexual things. She drives off, she's pissed off, she's leaving voicemails. And there are plans now put into place of what they should do, which, which why don't they just report it then, right? I mean, it's clearly not a premeditated intentional killing. They know that someone's going to get jail time. These are all cops. I don't think they're going to have a good time in jail. And two netizens Believe that this group is very image oriented. They don't want the whole town to know that this is a swingers gone wrong party. Which is a crazy way to phrase things, but that is theory number one. Swingers theory two. The Bryans. Brian Albert and his bestie Brian Higgins are ready for a fight. They had just driven down from New York together. And ATF Brian is telling Brian Albert about his text message flirting with Karen. Brian Albert is riling him up. He's like, you need to confront John about what his woman is doing. Like, that's the way that this man talks, okay? Just, I watched Boston's finest, okay? And this guy likes to call everybody females. So that's the vibe it gives. And he's saying, you got a man to man, say something to him. These are all fictional in our minds conversations. We don't know if any of this is true. And he's like, end this once and for all. Which is why Brian is texting John asking if he's coming. John walks in. A confrontation ensues between Brian Higgins and John o', Keefe, where again, John ends up with a fatal head injury. And now everyone's freaking out. Theory number three. Colin Albert. Bloody Knuckles Colin, 17 year old high schooler, very arrogant little weasel. I mean, propensity for getting into fist bump fights. He gets into an altercation, probably over nothing with John o', Keefe punches him, causing the fatal head injury. Everyone now plays cleanup.
- [84:42]
Co-Host
The reason why, why would that happen? Like you say, they previously have bad relationship, right?
- [84:47]
Host
Yes. So that is one theory. We're gonna get more into that in the next one. Because they're all. They've got some weird relationships with John o' Keefe as well. His parents do because they were all neighbors for a very long time. They live two houses down now. Colin Albert, Albert, just a weird kid. He was pissing John off, according to Karen, leaving beer bottles in his front lawn. He was the one person that John o' Keefe had problems with. And Colin Albert just seems to be very entitled. He gives me nepo baby vibes. Although I don't know how wealthy the McAlberts are.
- [85:19]
Co-Host
But Chris run the town.
- [85:21]
Host
Exactly. He. That's the energy that he has. I also feel like he. He is the type to bully smaller ranking cops because he's got the big boy cops on his side. And I think that he seems to. He strikes me as the type to think that that would be cool. But what do I know? I don't know this guy. Some people think that he started a Fight over the beer cans. Other people think maybe it's a mixture. Perhaps. John walks in and Chloe has a moment where she freaks out. She sees Jon, a stranger, and just attacks out of nowhere. And Jon is doing everything he can to get Chloe off of him because would you not do the same thing as well? And Colin sees this and he's mad. Why? I don't know if he particularly is a dog lover or an animal lover, but I think that he is maybe someone that looks for an opportunity to fight based off of his multiple instances of injured knuckles. Knuckles. And he decides that he's gonna punch John, use this as an excuse to punch him to get him to stop. But that punch ends up being fatal. So that is theory three, Colin unpredictable bloody knuckles. Now, there is another theory involving Colin, but it's involving Colin and almost this entire wall of people. Now, this theory is gonna make more sense in the next episode. But it is believed that Colin was engaged in some nefarious after school activities. That's the rumor. These are all speculations. These are conspiracies that Colin is selling drugs. There are depths to this theory. Some people think that it's just Colin selling drugs to high school kids. Others think it's a whole enterprise. They think so. Chris and Julie Albert, they own a pizza shop, okay? And everyone says the food is really bad. And they say, I don't know how they stay in business. Business. And people say maybe because they're not selling food. And it would be very easy, theoretically, for Kevin Albert, Brian Albert, to get access to confiscated drugs. And maybe it is being resold now. Why is this a theory? Because right before John o' Keeffe's passing, he reports to his superiors that he knew of some drug activity in his neighborhood in Canton. It's actually going to get a lot darker because do you know who invited John o' Keefe to the Waterfall Bar that night? Chris Albert. Prior to this, they were neighbors for many years.
- [87:57]
Co-Host
Oh, they hate each other, Right?
- [87:59]
Host
Chris Albert didn't even have John o' Keefe's number for a very long time. Suddenly, he invites him to the waterfall.
- [88:07]
Co-Host
That is weird.
- [88:09]
Host
That is a very lengthy theory that we're gonna go into the next part. But the theory is they decide they're gonna bring him to 34 Fairview. That's why Brian Higgins is like, hey, John, are you coming? And basically they're just gonna try to get into a fight to shut him up. A lot of people have reported online again, rumors that Brian Albert is a bully cop. He's the type of cop, cop that will beat you up. He's not the type of cop that's like, I will only arrest you and be kind to you because you are still a human with rights. And you are innocent until proven guilty. They say just based off vibes and what people say that they know of him. He's the one to turn off his body cam. Allegedly. This is a conspiracy. This is the vibe. This is the picture that I'm drawing you the vision. But it's not actual deeds that he is accused of doing or has have been proven to have done. But people say he's the type of cop to turn off his body cam and beat you up and then turn it back on. So they decide John's gonna come over and we're just going to tussle him up so he knows not to mess with it, not to talk about it, not to investigate further, because it's none of your business. And that is theory number four. So with those four main theories in mind, let's see what everyone in the house has to say about that night. Brian Higgins says on the 28th. So this is the day of the blizzard party. Before midnight, the day before John is found deceased, ATF Brian and Brian Albert go to New York City to attend the funeral of an officer who was killed in the line of duty. Now, the original plan was for everybody to stay in New York for a while to pay their respects. But because the blizzard is expected to hit, ATF Brian is like, I am not going to get stuck in New York City. I'm going to drive down to Canton. Today. Friday night, Brian Albert and Kevin Albert, Canton police officer, detective brother of Brian Albert. They're both in New York, and they ask ATF Brian, we flew here. Can we catch a ride with you? Because we also don't want to be stuck in New York. So they drive back, they grab dinner together. This drive is like four hours, by the way. And that is why a lot of people are like, you're telling me, ATF Brian, you didn't tell Brian Albert about your text messages with Karen? And they don't give me. I mean, you know, based off of everything we've seen about these two men, they seem like the type to share all these types of things with each other.
- [90:26]
Co-Host
They've been talking a lot of stuff.
- [90:29]
Host
Yeah. Now they all drive back down, grab dinner together, where ATF Bryan has a few drinks with his favorite Jameson and Ginger, and eventually they end up at the Waterfall Bar. Now, to be very precise, ATF Bryant initially Just went to the Hillside for dinner with Brian Albert. Brian Albert is like, I'm gonna go meet my wife Nicole at the Waterfall Bar. I think our daughter Caitlin is also there. So bye. ATF Brian is like, okay, bye. And then last minute, he decides, you know what? I'm gonna go to the Waterfall Bar. For no apparent specific reason, he walks in, and then Karen and Jon o' Keefe walk in. And obviously, it's gonna be presumably awkward. John doesn't know that they've been texting. He has a little inkling that something is. But Karen and ATF Brian likely. Well, Karen likely doesn't want anything to go further. ATF Brian says when the couple walk into the waterfall, he has a brief conversation with John, and he doesn't recall what they spoke about, and he doesn't have any sort of conversation with Karen, but he does discreetly text her well, which he says was a flirtatious text. Karen again does not respond. And everybody starts packing it up, starts leaving the bar to go to 34 Fairview. Suddenly, ATF Brian drops texting Karen. He's like, I'm no longer texting Karen. I'm going to text John o' Keefe instead. And he says, where are you? Are you coming here? Question mark. Question mark. Question mark. It just feels like, for whatever reason, he wants John o' Keefe there. Some people say he wants John o' Keefe there because Karen by default, will come. Some people say he wants John o' Keefe there because the last. This is like the last straw for him. Karen finally ghosted him again to his face, and now he's going to confront Jon about. And he's gonna be like, you know what's been happening?
- [92:15]
Co-Host
I see. Okay.
- [92:16]
Host
It's been interpreted both ways. ATF Bryan gets no response from John o' Keefe from that message, and he testifies that John and Karen were absolutely not inside the house at any point. He says, after I left the waterfall, I never saw the defendant or John o' Keefe ever again. During cross examination, the defense attorney, Alan Jackson, he starts asking ATF Brian. Brian about that kiss. And he's like, it wasn't some passionate, long kiss, right? ATF Brian is like, I wouldn't describe it as a peck. I would describe it as more. More than friends. It was a kiss. Well, you did describe it as a peck, didn't you? When. When you texted Karen and she said it was just a peck and you texted back, I agree. It was weak. He said it was a figure of speech or the truth. Right. Right. Figure of speech. The defense is trying to argue Karen really is just not that into you, A.T.F. brian. I mean, it's pretty clear from the messages that she's emotionally upset over the rough parts of her relationship with John. She's likely using ATF Brian to make John jealous. If anything, that gives ATF Brian a bigger motive to want John gone than it does Karen. Attorney Jackson asks him, you were very interested in her romantically at that point, correct? I was attracted to her. I don't know that I would say very interested in her. You were showing romantic interest in her. I wouldn't say it was romantic. I was trying to vet it out. My question is, you seem to have a problem admitting that you had a romantic interest in my client. Is there a reason for that? I was attracted to her. Right. Physically attracted. I thought she was an attractive woman. Romantically attracted. I'm not gonna go there. No, I don't agree with that. Of course you're not going to go there. Because that would put you in a very awkward position, wouldn't it? Not at all. But Alan Jackson is like, you were telling her that you want the real deal. The real deal? That you would be able to get to date her and get involved romantically. Correct? No. The real deal is what then? What do you mean by I want the real deal? Like a relationship? Like a romantic relationship, Mr. Higgins? It's possible. They also point out that at no point, even when talking about John potentially cheating on her, did Karen show any sort of anger, resentment or hatred towards John o'. Keefe. Which ATF Brian agrees. But maybe ATF Brian starts feeling some type of way. Because at the waterfall, he just keeps getting ignored. And so she basically ignored you the whole evening? No, that's not how I interpreted it.
- [94:49]
Co-Host
So how did he interpreted it?
- [94:51]
Host
So she paid you attention and came over and said hello, shook your hand, give you a hug? Well, just because somebody doesn't come over doesn't mean they ignored you. It was like you didn't even exist. I think that's dramatic. I didn't look at it that way. Did she ignore you or not? No, she did not ignore me. She was working the room, talking to people, saying hello, catching up. And the one person she didn't come over to talk to and say hello to and catch up with you is you. I don't know that I was the only person, but I was one of the people that she didn't say hello to. Yes. Treated you like a stranger? I didn't feel that way. No. Did that upset you, that she ignored you or didn't pay attention to you? I did not feel ignored and it didn't upset me at all. But it bothered you enough to send her a text message, didn't it? No, it was a flirty text. It was just. That was it. Oh, okay. So with six M's and she ignored the text. Correct. Well, I don't know what her mindset was, if she was purposely ignoring the text or she didn't see it. I don't know. I didn't read into it.
- [95:51]
Co-Host
I feel like a teenage boy could.
- [95:53]
Host
Figure this one out, and I feel like he's. Yeah, the rejection is very correct.
- [95:58]
Co-Host
What are you saying? We all know you're ignored and you're kind of. But her about it.
- [96:04]
Host
This one. A few of these people on this wall, I feel like their egos and their true colors, like this man Alan Jackson does know how to poke them. Very specifically. I see like he. He gets people angry on the stand. That is how a lot of reporters have talked about him even before this case. They say he's very adversarial. At 2:20am after you left the waterfall, you made your way over to 34 Fairview. You were more interested in getting John to come to 34 Fairview than Karen. No, that's not how I would describe it. The defense insinuates that ATF Bryan had told Brian Albert about everything that's been happening with Karen and he's going to confront John that night. ATF Bryan is like, to be honest with you, I mean, on a personal level, I kind of keep things to myself. I was a little embarrassed. I wasn't really proud of them. Kind of maybe didn't show me in a good light with respects that I was John's friend. So he's saying, I never told Brian Albert a single thing. He says that the text messages with Karen. I mean, I'm not proud of these text messages. It is what it is. I take responsibility for them. But John was a friend at the same time, and I clearly wasn't. You know, if they were at the end of their relationship, they were at the end of their relationship. ATF Bryan says he stops by inside the house, never sees John. But there's this very strange moment in court. Attorney Jackson brings up the fact that at a previous proceeding insinuating to be a federal proceeding, these people. These people are much more honest with federal interviews. The FBI comes knocking on their door. Suddenly a little more honest. Suddenly they can remember a little bit more. But anything to do with the Commonwealth grand jury hearing, the first trial, the second trial, interviews, they just talk out of their butts in ways that I'm like, logically it doesn't even make sense. But with the Feds, I think they know.
- [97:54]
Co-Host
So the feds and you have only Alan Jackson has that information and he will bring it up during this trial.
- [98:00]
Host
The Commonwealth has that information, but it's. They don't want to bring it up.
- [98:04]
Co-Host
Right.
- [98:05]
Host
So Alan Jackson is impeaching them with this information. So he's bringing it up during cross examination and he says, didn't you at a previous proceeding you stated that you saw a tall, dark haired male enter the Albert house that night? I believe that was in reference to somebody's brother picking them up. I don't know. I'm asking you, Mr. Higgins, is did you say that, did you say a tall dark haired male entered the house while you were there? I said they might have. Did you say they might have? Yes. Attorney Jackson reads him the previous statement which Higgins has asked. The mail showed up where? You answered, showed up at the house. I think he was there very briefly. I was half paying attention to it. You were then asked, did that mail come inside the house? You answered, I believe he did. Do you remember that? Yes. So did the mail come into the house that night? No. I said I believe he did. I wasn't sure. Sure. You said that you only remember seeing that person come in briefly and it looked like he was having a conversation with two girls, briefly, correct? Yes. You were asked how long was the person in there roughly. And you said it was quick, less than a couple of minutes. And then you were asked what he looked like and you said, I feel like they were a little bit taller and had dark hair. Now, side note, there are two ways this has been interpreted. This tall, dark haired male could fit John o' Keeffe's description. But other than that, there's no name, there's nothing. But Higgins knows what John o' Keeffe looks like. Why would he say it like this? Because Higgins is a federal agent. Maybe he knows what happens when you lie to the Feds about something really bad. Perhaps he's using this as a seed to plant an out for him to say, well, I didn't really look fully, I was drunk, I wasn't paying attention. I did tell you, remember I told you that I might have seen someone come into the house. I clearly didn't think it was John cuz I was so drunk I was out of it. But I told you I remembered someone Coming in. So I'm not lying. Lying to you. Others think no, he's covering his ass because Colin, every single person testifies that Colin leaves before Karen's car even shows up anywhere. Colin leaves before half the senior adults get here. He leaves right when like Brian Albert walks in through the door. And he's the first person to get there. So there's no way Colin and John o' Keefe Karen reed over lap. But maybe Brian Higgins is like, I know that's not true and I can't lie to the feds. And so this is his way of saying, well Colin, Colin was there. Colin was there later than everyone is saying he was there because technically Colin and Brian Higgins should not have crossed paths. He should have left the house before Brian Higgins even got there.
- [100:47]
Co-Host
Correct. Is that, is that the only people who fits the description? Like there's no other tall, black hair? Really?
- [100:57]
Host
I mean those are the only two that fit the description in a way that would make sense. So these are what the netizens are theorizing.
- [101:03]
Co-Host
Oh okay.
- [101:04]
Host
Now this could be him covering for himself to say, well I didn't see John o' Keefe there, but I, I guess I saw him. I was just drunk. Or to not perjure himself on the stand and say that, oh, I didn't see Colin. He left before I got there. There.
- [101:18]
Co-Host
So exactly how many people is in.
- [101:19]
Host
The house when everybody is at the waterfall?
- [101:22]
Co-Host
When everyone's at the waterfall.
- [101:24]
Host
Okay, you've got birthday Brian. Brian Albert Jr. I have these little house post its okay. Because I, I was like, these are going to come in handy. Brian Albert Jr. Uhhuh.
- [101:38]
Co-Host
His friend Julie.
- [101:40]
Host
His other friend Sarah Levinson in. Okay, these three are in the house. There were, that's it. There were a few other girls, but they left. And they are now saying Colin was.
- [101:54]
Co-Host
Also there the whole time with Brian Auburn Jr.
- [101:58]
Host
Yes. He. He only came for like 40 minutes they say.
- [102:02]
Co-Host
Okay.
- [102:03]
Host
But he was there.
- [102:04]
Co-Host
Wait, so Colin Auber is friends with Brian Albert. They're cousins. They're. Albert.
- [102:07]
Host
Yeah, they're cousins. Yeah. So they're cousins. They're there and then the first people to get back.
- [102:15]
Co-Host
Huh.
- [102:16]
Host
In one car is Brian Albert.
- [102:18]
Co-Host
Uh huh. Nicole Albert. Nicole Albert @ like what, 12 something?
- [102:23]
Host
Yes. And Caitlin Albert, their daughter.
- [102:28]
Co-Host
Right.
- [102:28]
Host
Okay, so these three come back in one car from the Waterfall bar and then Colin leaves.
- [102:35]
Co-Host
Why, why did he leave so early? Early, Right.
- [102:38]
Host
He says he has a curfew. We're gonna get into that. He. There's text messages that are so unhinged so then Colin leaves at what time? 12, he says 12:10am Exactly. Does he recall anything else from that night?
- [102:51]
Co-Host
Crazy.
- [102:52]
Host
But they, every single person recalls he left at 12:10.
- [102:57]
Co-Host
Wow.
- [102:58]
Host
So then, then Brian Higgins walks in.
- [103:01]
Co-Host
Okay.
- [103:01]
Host
Colin is left. Brian Higgins walks, walks in. Jennifer McCabe walks in with her husband, Matthew McCabe. Yes. And then do you want to know about outside people? Should I do upside down house for people who are outside on the street? And obviously right now these are all the people that are inside.
- [103:20]
Co-Host
That's not a lot of people.
- [103:21]
Host
No.
- [103:22]
Co-Host
How do you not remember? Okay, so there's, let me see, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5 adults, like five older. And then 1, 2, 3, 4,. Four. Younger crowd, like there's barely anyone in the house.
- [103:34]
Host
Yeah, I mean, okay, so I'm gonna get there when I get there because there are outside people now. So these are all the people when asked about if he said that to the feds about the dark haired, tall guy, he doesn't remember. Brian Higgins doesn't remember a lot of things during his testimony. All he remembers about being in that house was he just stayed for a little bit because, well, he saw birthday Brad flanked by two females. That's how he says it. He just keeps using this type of verbiage over and over again. And at one point, ATF Brian and Brian Albert leave the kitchen area and they go upstairs to look at Brian Albert's other son's photos. So Brian Albert is like, hey, my other son who's not on this wall is in the Marines. You want to see pictures of him in the Marines? So they go upstairs.
- [104:20]
Co-Host
Uh huh.
- [104:22]
Host
Probably. Problem. ATF Brian previously testified that he had never been upstairs in the Albert household. But they went upstairs to go look at the photos. There's three floors in the Albert residence. ATF Brian testified previously that he's never been to the very top floor, which means you just have the main floor and the basement. So if you go upstairs to look at photos, where are the photos?
- [104:49]
Co-Host
Okay, so are we saying that they were downstairs in the basement where a.
- [104:53]
Host
Lot of people theorized John o' Keefe was killed? So they're downstairs in the basement and they went upstairs to go look at photos. It's just another thing that is very, very strange. Right. It doesn't make any sense. ATF Bryan also states that he leaves the Albert residence sometime around 12:21am he says that he knew he was gonna leave pretty early, even before coming because he's not a big beer drinker and all they have are white Claws and beers. So he's like, I need my Jameson and ginger. He's, like, obsessed with that combination. He claims he's one of the very first people to leave. And he just wants to go home. Except he doesn't go home. He goes straight to the Canton Police Department. ATF Brian works out of the Canton Police Department. He has an office there because Chief. The chief of the Canton Police, Berkowitz, is his bestie. During a celebration party for Chief Berkowitz, ATF Bryan got up with a glass of champagne to give a toast. And allegedly said, if you want to hide a body, Kenny Berkowitz is your man. Brian Higgins says that relationship was through Chief Berkowitz born through a tragedy. When my sister passed away, we became friends. And he offered up the space at the police station. I'd also moved to Canton, so it was close. It was a good jumping off point.
- [106:10]
Co-Host
Brian Higgins sister passed away?
- [106:12]
Host
Yeah. And then he was like, hey, since you're moving to Canton, do you just want an office inside of my police station? You want to know something else? That's crazy. I keep wanting to save some crazy things, but okay, these two seem close, right? Brian Higgins, ATF Brian and Brian Albert seem close, right?
- [106:33]
Co-Host
Trustees.
- [106:33]
Host
Yeah, but Brian Higgins, ATF Bryan and Chief Berkowitz are actually much closer. And ATF Brian stated that Chief Berkowitz says even he is scared of Brian Albert. Brian Albert's a scary guy.
- [106:48]
Co-Host
How do we find out about that?
- [106:50]
Host
He said that to somebody else. Now, why does he go to the Canton Police department right after 34 Fairview? He's like, yeah, it doesn't make sense. He claims. Claims it's because he has a ton of cars parked in the parking lot. He's got work cars. He's got a police cruiser. He's got an undercover cop car. He's got his own personal cars in the parking lot. And if the snow plowers are coming through. They've got to move all their cars to the center of the parking garage. Because it just makes things easier. It's a courtesy thing. Nevertheless, he goes in, he passes the dispatch room where Sergeant Good is working dispatch. And he will be the one that picks up Carrie Roberts initial 911 call. Where she's like, hey, have you seen my friend at a hospital or anything? He says, no. Then he picks up another 911 call from Jen. Who says, there's a guy in the snow. There's a man in the snow.
- [107:38]
Co-Host
And then he later showed up too, at the Scene. Yes, it's, it was all him.
- [107:42]
Host
Yes, these three will show up at the scene. These three are so suspicious because these three didn't even see where Jon's body was laying in the snow. But they're out here giving all their information to the accident reconstructionist when it's, it's like, how can you give information if you didn't even know where he was in the snow?
- [108:00]
Co-Host
Right.
- [108:01]
Host
These three are weird. ATF Brian says he just waves at Sergeant Good, that's it. He says hi to him, goes to his office upstairs, grabs his car keys, comes back down, moves the vehicles. There has been footage of him released of moving his cars around. And this man isn't just moving his cars around. He's just like full treasure hunting, opening the trunk, grabbing things. There's of lot, a lot going on for someone who just wants to go home and fall asleep asap. And at one point you can see him walking in the snow with his brightly lit phone up to his ear. It looks like he's on a phone call, but we don't know that for sure. He could be doing a voice memo. He could be listening to a voice memo. It just appears to be a phone call. But the problem is you cannot even ask him about it because this footage of him in the Canton Police Department was released during the second trial where ATF Brian is not called to testify. The government does not call him to testify. And the defense, I don't think they want to risk it.
- [108:56]
Co-Host
Oh, it was like somebody else released it during the second trial. But they can't ask Brian for any more information about it.
- [109:02]
Host
It's admitted into evidence, but they can't say, hey Brian, who are you on the phone with? ATF Brian says after all of that he just goes home and quote again, it was a long day. It just seemed like it dragged on forever. But I think I did what I typically do after being out having a couple of drinks. I had something else to eat and I believe I might have had another couple of drinks and laid on the couch or the bed. Bed. Typically if I fall asleep on the couch, I wake up and go to the bedroom. I don't know what location I was in at that point. Regardless, he says he falls asleep and he doesn't wake up until his phone starts blowing up at 6:30 in the morning. Most of the calls are coming from two people. Chief Berkowitz and Brian Albert.
- [109:40]
Co-Host
Why the they're calling him for exactly?
- [109:43]
Host
ATF Brian chooses not to call Chief Berkowitz back, back but he calls Brian Albert back. Chief Berkowitz is his bestie. Bestie, yeah. But he calls Brian Albert back.
- [109:54]
Co-Host
Yeah.
- [109:54]
Host
And his reasoning for this is, well, Chief Berkowitz is an early riser. And typically when he's working that day, we had a friendship where we would just kind of check on each other in the mornings. We'd just call in the mornings. So I just kind of blew it off. Like, you know, why are you calling me this early? But when I saw Brian Albert calling me, that kind of caused some concern. So he's like, it's not that I knew Brian Albert had something to tell me. It's that he just doesn't wake up now. Right. We don't talk like that. Whereas I talk to Chief Berkowitz every single morning. So this is a casual phone call. I was getting this. This was alarming to me. That's why I picked his phone call over his. So, you know, he was out with me all day. We both had the same long day. I was concerned at that point. So he picks up the call, he talks to Brian Albert, and that's when he's found. He finds out that John o' Keefe was found laying on the lawn outside ATF Brian says that in that moment he was very confused. None of this was making sense because John o' Keefe and the defendant never showed showed up. He says it didn't make sense. So he gets dressed, rushes over to 34 Fairview, where a few of the McAlbert family members have gathered ATF Brian says the energy was just distraught. He ends up staying for about an hour and he doesn't really recall with 100% certainty what else he did. But he's off that day. He's off. January 29, 2022. He just found out that someone that he. He is friends with passed away.
- [111:17]
Co-Host
Yeah.
- [111:18]
Host
What would you do on your off day? Would you go grieve? Would you go mourn? Would you spend time with your family? Cuz you're like, I. I need. I'm sad. He goes on his off day to the office, to Canton police station. He doesn't recall how long he was there or what time he was there from. But he. He wasn't on duty that day. Day he's not working that day. He doesn't go home to grieve. He doesn't sleep. He doesn't run errands. He goes directly from 34 Fairview to Canton Police Department. ATF Bryan says he just stopped by, but the defense argues that his key card Shows access all the way from 9am to 5pm Brian is like, well, that I could have left and come back. I could have like left and periodically kept coming back all day.
- [112:05]
Co-Host
You could have.
- [112:06]
Host
And then they're like, okay, but you were still there for a long time. At that point. ATF Bryan meets with some of the state troopers that have now just been assigned to the case. Trooper Proctor and Trooper Buchanak, both of whom he knows. ATF Bryan testifies. So I was familiar with Trooper Buchanak. Evidently I was reminded by Trooper Proctor that I had met with him before. I think I had helped him on a gun recovery that he made, but I don't remember him. He says that he's not close with either of them. Just seen Buchanak at a local gym a few times. Saw him at a bar once where ATF Brian bought him a drink, introduced himself and said hi to Trooper Buchanak's kids at a sporting event. Probably worked with him before, but they're not close. They barely know each other. ATF Brian says, I wouldn't classify that as socializing more, being friendly, and that's that. Nothing else of particular value has been noted by the Honorable Brian Higgins. Also, ATF Bryan testifies that he knows the name of Colin Albert. He knows that he's one of Chris Albert's sons. However, if Colin Albert were to walk into the courtroom today, he would have not a single clue that that is Colin Albert. ATF Bryan testifies that he does not know what Colin Albert looks like and he just feels the need to throw that out there. A lot of people just don't like his testimony. Everything boils down to, if I did that, if I knew that, I would have done that with one netizen writing, they kill me. These witnesses kill me when they act like they don't understand the questions. Then you have Brian Albert, the homeowner. Homeowner Brian. Brian Albert is sitting on the witness stand dressed like a defendant. White collared shirt, tie, sweater, jacket on top. It's, we're making a comeback here. Brian Albert retained counsel, which is not a bad thing to do. It is crazy how attorneys will make people look bad for hiring attorneys. And I'm like, you are also an attorney. I don't understand. But it is odd in the sense that Brian Albert cannot tell you anything about this attorney. I'm not talking privileged conversations. I'm talking Brian Albert does not recall, does not remember the date, date, even the month, even the season, even the year in which he hired this attorney.
- [114:26]
Co-Host
Why is he just trying to play like, I don't recall, I don't recall, I don't recall.
- [114:31]
Host
Yeah, but I think he's also trying to be like, if it's too early on, that looks suspicious.
- [114:36]
Co-Host
Ah, I see, I see. Like, though even those information that that's like so harmless. He's like, I'm just not gonna say anything.
- [114:43]
Host
Yeah, I don't know. I don't recall. Do you have amnesia? He also conveniently forgets that he talked to the prosecution even just a few hours ago. The direct examination of Brian Albert is exactly what you expect. He testifies that he comes to the house, he lets Chloe out from upstairs, goes outside to use the restroom, hangs out a little bit in the kitchen. Chloe does. And then Brian sends Chloe back upstairs to go to sleep in their master bedroom. And then he hangs out with everyone. Everybody leaves. He goes upstairs, knocks out, out, falls asleep and does not wake up until his sister in law, Jen McKay bursts into the room. The cross examination of Brian Albert just starts spicy. It sets the tone for the entire cross. Everyone's favorite serial killer is back in the new series Dexter Resurrection, now streaming on Paramount + Michael C. Hall returns as the iconic Dexter Morgan, and he's ready to take a slice out of the big Apple. New York City. He may have found a new zip code to call home, but Dexter's code never changes. There are plenty of monsters in NYC to keep his dark passenger very satisfied with a killer cast including Uma Thurman.
- [115:51]
Co-Host
Jack Alcott, David Zayas, James Remar, and Peter Dinklage.
- [115:55]
Host
Dexter Resurrection new series now streaming on the Paramount plus premium plan. If you've shopped online, chances are you've bought from a business. Powered by Shopify. You might recognize their purple shop pay button. It just makes everything so much easier and safer whenever you're checking out this. That's Shopify. We opened Grandpa Mango's Art Studio for the limited edition release of his artwork a few years back and Shopify was a lifesaver. There was nothing comparable on the market that would make it so easy for us. It's truly the best place to start for a small online business. You guys tag or DM me all the time with MOTs inspired artwork, rotten Mango artwork, or even stickers for the dogs. Just asking to like send them for free. But honestly, I would love to show you guys, you guys my support and I'm sure so many of you guys have been thinking about opening up your own online store. Shopify is the place to start. Integrated across their entire platform is their new Shopify Magic, a professional grade AI tool that's easy to use and available to consult 24. 7 Need to enhance product images? Shopify's professional grade AI editing lets you make professional image adjustments, like generating a new background for a product promo or removing a background that doesn't match your theme anymore. Even if you're struggling with product descriptions, Shopify Magic has got you covered. If you want to see less carts being abandoned, it's time for you to head over to Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com rotten go to shopify.com rotten shopify.com rotten you know that feeling? You're like walking through your house at night. You're turning off the last light, checking the final lock and in that quiet moment you just want to add so okay, is my family actually completely safe? That's what Simplisafe Security gives you real peace of mind. Most security systems, they only take action after someone breaks in. But SimpliSafe's new active guard Outdoor Protection helps stop break ins before they happen. SimpliSafe's AI powered cameras and live monitoring agents work together to protect you from break ins and hazards. Detecting any suspicious activity around your property in the in less than 30 seconds, an agent can access and react based on the situation. Agents can speak, sound the siren, trigger the spotlights, and proactively deter crime before it even starts. We love Simplisafe because it helps us feel confident that our home is protected, which in our minds equals our dogs are protected. A lot of the times my nieces are over, visit simplisafe.com rotten to claim 50% off a new system with a professional monitoring plan and get your your first month free. That's simplisafe.com rotten. There's no safe like simplisafe. Alan Jackson starts off by asking Brian Brian Albert how many times he's testified before cuz he's a cop. It's probably around 100 times cops testify in trials. Jackson asks him when was the last time you spoke to prosecutor Aladdin, the lead prosecutor, before Friday? Like when you began testifying? When was the last time? The last time I spoke to him I believe was on a conference call around the time of my grand jury testimony, which would have been in 2022, two years prior. It's not uncommon for you to prep witnesses. This is a very normal thing. The government will call a witness and they will prep a witness. They'll even do like mock cross examinations of like this is what the defense attorney is probably going to ask you. So let's see how you hold up. You had not spoken to Mr. Lally since 2022? I don't remember speaking with Mr. Lally since that time, no. What about anyone from the DA's office? No. But Brian also goes on to say that he did watch a video of everybody at the Waterfall Bar to prep for this trial. That was back in April of 2022. No, that was to prep for this trial. With whom did you prep with this trial? Four. Mr. Lally. I'm confused. I thought you had not spoken with Mr. Lally since April of 2022, except for the prep of this trial and not. Okay, that was my question. Mr. Albert. Okay, I misunderstood your question. I apologize. Did you prep for this trial with Mr. Lally? Yes. When? Approximately? A few weeks ago. Mr. Albert, about 45 seconds ago. I asked you, have you spoken with Mr. Lally before your testimony in this proceeding? And your answer was? Was no, I have not. Did you not understand my question? I did not. What was confusing about it?
- [120:22]
Co-Host
That's crazy, right? Meanwhile, you're a cop standing here playing dumb like, oh, I didn't understand your question. What was your question again? Repeat that. I didn't understand.
- [120:31]
Host
I. I didn't even know I had a prep. Like, it's like if out of anyone you know what the system is like.
- [120:37]
Co-Host
You know exactly what's going on.
- [120:39]
Host
I was. I was expecting you to ask if I had prepped with Mr. Lally. I didn't hear a prep with Mr. Lally, and so I didn't know what you were referring to. What's the difference between speaking and prepping? No, there is no difference. I just misunderstood your question, that's all. A lot of netizens feel like this already broke credibility for Brian Albert because he's being so evasive and fishy with his words. A lot of netizens believe what is happening. Like, what is the little point in lying about this when this is so common? But one comment reads, what if it was a very silent prep? Like, they never spoke, obviously being sarcastic, and everyone in this family and circle of friends is just evasive for no reason. Later, the defense starts asking Brian Albert about how close he was with Karen, how well he knows her. He says he's never met her. Well, maybe he met her once in a bar. Then he makes it appear like they don't even really know each other aside from their first first names. Except just a week before John o' Keefe's death, there's a photo of. Of Chris Albert, Brian Albert, John o' Keefe and a guy named Tim Daly in a bar together. And the person that took that photo is Karen Reed. Attorney Jackson is asking Brian Albert, Karen Reed took the photo. You're literally staring at her. Correct. I don't know who took the photo. Who do you think took the photo, sir? I have no idea who took the photo. Could it have been Karen Reed? Objection. Sustained. Netizens are having split reactions to this part of the testimony. Some believe defense is grasping at straws. Others are joking. Is the defense also going to point out that Brian's hand seems to be clenched into a fist in that picture? Others think it's frustrating how much amnesia this entire town has. And suddenly they think it casts a lot of reasonable doubt in the case. People say they just don't like Brian's energy. They say it's kind of a pure talent that he has to be able to give such infuriatingly vague answers to every single question. Some people are commenting, what's up with amnesia in this town? Is there something in the water?
- [122:34]
Co-Host
I think their, their evasiveness is only make them look more sus.
- [122:38]
Host
Yes.
- [122:38]
Co-Host
If you don't remember to just try your best to. I think they're, they're. Whenever Karen Reid gets brought up, they try to distance so hard that it made it seem more shady. Just say, oh, I met her. I met her twice, three times, four times. Instead of like, I don't recall, maybe I don't know her. I don't know.
- [122:54]
Host
And they have to be evasive about everything.
- [122:57]
Co-Host
Yeah.
- [122:57]
Host
And it's very weird for the jurors because, I mean, these people, they seem to hate the defense, but the jurors don't. You're just being combative for no reason.
- [123:07]
Co-Host
I wonder if this strategy would have worked in like, a traditional case that's not this high profile.
- [123:13]
Host
I think so.
- [123:14]
Co-Host
Right. Like you can get away with these things. You're like, well, that could be the case.
- [123:19]
Host
I think so right now. Now, some people say, well, yeah, he's being evasive because every single question coming from the defense sounds accusatory. Of course, everyone's on edge. Some people are saying, the defense team, they're so hostile now. Maybe it's because just like Brian Higgins, Brian Albert does something that pisses off the defense. He throws away his phone. He gets rid of his phone as well. Both the Brians have now gotten rid of their phone. Okay, and they're cops.
- [123:49]
Co-Host
What exactly happened? Like, the day of. The day after what's going on?
- [123:53]
Host
No, not even the.
- [123:55]
Co-Host
But then also, like, throwing away the phone is kind of dumb because there's a record of everything, right?
- [124:00]
Host
There is a cell record, but you don't have text message records when you pull a lot of data. Text messages are hard to pull from the service provider. You'll see who you're texting. Yeah, but you won't get the exact messages. And. And the cell data will show incoming or outgoing call. Right. And they'll give you duration. Yes, but it will not indicate if that duration went to voicemail. If that duration was on the phone.
- [124:27]
Co-Host
Right. Okay. So Michael Proctor, the. No, no nudes. Michael Proctor.
- [124:31]
Host
Yes.
- [124:32]
Co-Host
They pull his phone. Yes, they took his phone.
- [124:35]
Host
The Feds.
- [124:36]
Co-Host
The Feds. But Brian Higgin and Brian Albert tossed the phone.
- [124:40]
Host
And the timing of. Of this is going to be crazy. Now attorney Jackson asks. Brian Albert, sir, you had an iPhone with the number ending in 0888 back in January 2022, did you not? Yes. Mr. Albert, you were notified by the Commonwealth that on September 23, 2022, a judge specifically ordered that you were to preserve that phone. I do not remember getting that letter. No. Subsequent to me upgrading my phone, I spoke to the DA's office. So after that they told me via phone call that that was the case. So your testimony is that you never received a notice that I just read, but you did talk to the da, and he told you, loudly told you that you were on notice that you were to preserve your phone. Was that the conversation, sir? I don't have the exact date of that conversation. I'm not sure. Who did you talk to on the phone Exactly? Was it Mr. Lally alone? Was it a conference call? It was a conference call. Brian says he believes other witnesses involved in this case were on the conference call being told the same thing. Can you name some of those witnesses from. For us? I believe it was Jen McCabe. Matt McCabe, I believe. Brian Higgins, I believe. Maybe somebody else. I can't recall. Did you volunteer? Oh, my goodness. I just upgraded my phone last week. Conveniently, I don't have that phone anymore. No, you didn't say that to Mr. Lally? No. So you just took the information that he gave you and hung up the phone and went about your business? Yes. Without notifying him that the very phone that he just ordered you to preserve had just been destroyed. Destroyed days earlier.
- [126:07]
Co-Host
Destroyed?
- [126:08]
Host
Destroyed. Well, that's what the defense is saying. Brian is saying the phone wasn't destroyed. I upgraded the phone. The data was destroyed. Sir, I didn't destroy any data on my phone.
- [126:20]
Co-Host
Where's the phone?
- [126:21]
Host
He doesn't have it.
- [126:23]
Co-Host
We don't know where.
- [126:23]
Host
Yeah.
- [126:24]
Co-Host
When? So the Brian Higgins. You're saying he tossed it into a military.
- [126:28]
Host
Yes.
- [126:29]
Co-Host
Okay. Are you gonna explain more on that or.
- [126:31]
Host
Or yes.
- [126:32]
Co-Host
Oh, okay. Okay.
- [126:33]
Host
Now, Mr. Albert, I. I upgraded my phone. When you upgrade your phone, you know that the phone is set back to factory reset before your new phone is handed to you, correct? Happens every time. I don't know that. How many times have you upgraded your phone? Multiple times. Every single time you upgraded, you know that the phone prior the data is destroyed on it. Correct. So it seems like he's trading the phone in. Usually my contacts come over and my photos come over. So that's a backup? No, I don't. I don't think that. That. That that's a backup. But. Okay. Irrespective, you didn't tell Mr. Lally that you had gotten rid of the phone? I was not asked that, so I didn't tell him that. I see. You felt like if you weren't asked, you didn't need to volunteer it, even though the conference call was specifically about preserving your phone pursuant to a judge's order. What was the question? You didn't offer to Mr. Lally that you had gotten rid of the very phone that he was telling you had to be preserved due to the judge's order? I did not. When did you upgrade your phone? I upgraded my phone in September. Third week of September. Maybe around the 22nd. I can't be sure of the exact date.
- [127:36]
Co-Host
Wait, but when you upgrade, you. If they transfer the phone.
- [127:39]
Host
Yes.
- [127:40]
Co-Host
The text message gets. Gets transferred too?
- [127:42]
Host
Yes. But he did not do that.
- [127:44]
Co-Host
Oh, he just restarted a new phone. That is freaking weird.
- [127:50]
Host
So according to you, you got.
- [127:51]
Co-Host
That is so weird. That's beyond weird. Hello? Is. Am I the only one? That's crazy.
- [127:59]
Host
No, it's weird.
- [127:59]
Co-Host
That is so crazy.
- [128:00]
Host
It's crazy. So according to you, you got rid of the phone that was the subject of a court order preservation the day before it was ordered. So the court order came out 23rd. He got rid of his phone September 23rd. Second.
- [128:15]
Co-Host
Yeah, the timing.
- [128:16]
Host
The timing. Did someone warn him? Did he get a heads up?
- [128:20]
Co-Host
Wow.
- [128:21]
Host
Rephrase the question, please. He's saying that usually the judge says that. Okay. The day before this all happened, you upgraded your phone and got rid of it in total, Correct? I upgraded my phone around the 22nd, yes. You are aware that the very data that you were ordered to preserve would have been destroyed, according to you, the day before the court order, correctly Correct. Rephrase your question or ask me a question. Are you claiming that you got rid of your phone on the 22nd? I upgraded my phone around that. I'm not sure if that's the exact date, but yes. So it could have been after the 22nd? I don't think it was after the 22nd. But it could have been the 24th. No. Could have been the 25th? No. So you're absolutely sure that you could not have upgraded your phone and gotten rid of it anytime after the 23rd when this judge ordered. Ordered that it to be preserved. Now, because you knew that if you got rid of that phone after you had been notified that you were ordered by a court order to preserve it, you would be committing a felony. Objection. Sustained. Yeah, I'm getting riled up because of these. Auntie Bev is going to come in Episode four There's a lot of words people are saying about Auntie Bev. So now you claim that you got rid of your phone September 22, 20202 hours before you were ordered to preserve it. That's your testimony? Yes. Is that just a coincidence? September 4th was my birthday. The phone was broken and failing. I had planned on getting a new phone. That just happens to be the day that I got it. Happy Birthday. Was that a coincidence? That's what you're saying today to these jurors? Just a coincidence? Yes. Did you and Brian Higgins agree with each other to both get rid of your phones? No. Jackson brings up the fact that in previous testimony, Brian says he recalls having conversation about the phone phones with ATF Brian, but he doesn't really recall much more. Now he's being asked that, like, didn't you have conversations with ATF Brian about getting rid of your phones? And he says, I don't recall what time. Mr. Albert, I don't care when it was. I'm asking you, have you had a conversation with Brian Higgins about your phones respectively? We may have. I just. I can't remember that conversation specifically.
- [130:31]
Co-Host
Who did he tell that to? FBI.
- [130:32]
Host
Yeah. Okay, so Brian Albert gets rid of his phone. No clue where it is. Brian Higgins gets rid of his phone, literally drives it to a military base to dump it. But then how do we have all these text messages between Brian Higgins, Karen Reed, Brian Higgins and John o'? Keefe? Well, Karen Reed's phone was taken. John o' Keefe's phone was taken. So is it just from their phones? No. Brian Higgins gives over those text messages. He Uses a federal device to extract message threads. So a lot of feds, they have these machines where. Okay. When the feds go through your phone, that's. This is a huge thing. Not just the feds. Any law enforcement officer, when they go through your phone, they don't actually go through your physical phone. They hook it up to a computer or a machine, and it's a mirrored image of your phone. This guy was going through Karen's phone physically looking for nudes. So that's like, already bad.
- [131:24]
Co-Host
But wait, what do you mean? Upload your phone to a cloud and then they can access everything?
- [131:28]
Host
It's not like uploading to a cloud. It's just connected to device. I think it's so that everything is. Yeah, but you don't just like scroll through someone's phone like that.
- [131:37]
Co-Host
Interesting.
- [131:38]
Host
Okay, so he's just going through Karen's phone like that, which is already bad, and he's looking for nudes.
- [131:43]
Co-Host
You're saying he was going through Karen's phone without this official government monitor, he's just like, browsing?
- [131:49]
Host
Yeah.
- [131:49]
Co-Host
Wow.
- [131:50]
Host
Now Brian Higgins goes to one of these machines and you can extract certain data. And this is very important, especially with suspects who have attorneys, because there's like different panels as well. Sometimes if there's a lot of. And this was a problem with the Sean Combs case, and it's very technical. Let's say I have a phone where I have tons of communication with my attorney on there about this specific case. It gets turned over to the police. They immediately see tons of privileged information between myself and my counsel. Typically, they would send this phone to a third party attorney who will take out all of the privileged information, give them that back to me and my council, and then give the non privileged information to the law enforcement agencies.
- [132:32]
Co-Host
But you're saying that's like the police have to follow this code of law and be ethical and be not browsing, looking for nudes and looking for.
- [132:43]
Host
Yeah, I mean, it's typically easier in the sense of, like, you. It's easy to prove that you have lots of privileged communications. And then you would bring it up with a judge and it would become a whole ordeal. Right. But I mean, they just be doing whatever.
- [132:56]
Co-Host
Yeah.
- [132:56]
Host
Now Brian Higgins goes to one of these machines and you can extract certain data. So, like, that's the whole point. You can take certain data with its metadata, so you can take certain text threads with all the metadata, and that's it. You're not doing a copy of the entire phone. You're just selecting this Specific text message thread between person A and person B. So Brian Higgins goes to this machine and gets two text message threats, one with Karen Reed and one with John o'. Keefe, and he submits them himself to Buchanak, the state trooper.
- [133:31]
Co-Host
This is before his phone was destroyed or after?
- [133:33]
Host
And then immediately after he destroys his phone.
- [133:36]
Co-Host
What's his explanation?
- [133:38]
Host
Because if he doesn't give these text messages, they're gonna want his phone, right? They're gonna say, you're weird, you're sus. We need to go through this. Your phone. So he's trying to get ahead of it, is what a lot of people believe. I'm not in Brian Higgins mind, thankfully. I think I would not like it there. But he says, I thought it was important because I've had communications with both of them and I wanted to be fully transparent. He says he was never asked for these. He voluntarily gave them over to the state troopers. But here's what's interesting. Trooper Buchanak is on the stand and his whole testimony is in the next one. He says, I explained to Mr. Higgins that we have in our custody and will eventually get to both the defense defendants phone and Mr. O' Keefe's phone. So to protect Brian Higgins integrity as a law enforcement official, I told him that the information he was providing to us better be true and accurate or else he would suffer the consequences. AKA giving him a chance to rectify anything he didn't turn over. Basically he's saying, hey, we're gonna go through the text messages soon. They gotta match up to what we have in their phones.
- [134:42]
Co-Host
Okay, Wink, wink. Yeah, because I want to protect. What did he say?
- [134:46]
Host
Protect his integrity as a law enforcement official. Now, ATF Bryan is asked during the cross examination, you would agree that searching electronic devices and phones is an incredibly important investigative tool that modern investigators use. Correct. I've utilized phone data during the course of my investigations. At times, yes. You've probably even written search warrants for them. Right. Things of that nature. Right, yes. So how do you get rid of information on your cell phone? I mean, I think there's different ways that you could possibly. You could wipe your phone another avenue. You could break the SIM card in half. Correct? Yeah, that's exactly what he does. He breaks it in half and gets rid of it. He says it was beaten, it was broken up already. I already had a new phone. And the only explanation is I threw it away at the. That's it. Later, he says, I had a target of an investigation I was working with. He's like, this is the reason I changed my phone, okay? I was doing this undercover investigation. The target of that investigation said he knew my personal cell phone number. And I was like, how did you know? He said he obtained it through open source Internet. So I went online, and lo and behold, my phone number is out there. So I had to get a new phone number. And he's like, quit lying with me. Quit playing with me. Because you waited three months afterwards to change your phone number that time that that target of your investigation told you that your phone number is open source. So where's the phone? I don't have the phone anymore. You destroyed that phone, haven't you? No, I threw the phone away. Well, that's destroying the phone, isn't it? I had every right to do that. I didn't ask you about your rights. I asked you about what you did. You destroyed the phone by removing the SIM card. Correct. Did you do that? Did you pull the SIM card out? To the best of my recollection, if I did take the SIM card out, I would have thrown it away. If I was going to take a it out, I would break it or cut it, but I did not wipe the phone. I did not take anything else off of it, but I was just going to throw the phone away. That's what I would have done. You were aware that there was a court order that was to not alter, delete, or destroy in any way manipulate your phone or any electronic data associated with it, correct. September 30, 2022 for you, and you were served a notice on September 30, 2022? That's correct. Isn't it true that in another hearing, you explained that on September 29, the day. Day before you claim you got that notice, you changed phone carriers also, Both of them.
- [137:06]
Co-Host
The day before, one upgraded the phone, the other one changed his whole carrier. But, like, how did they find out about this? Right. You think it's. Wow.
- [137:22]
Host
Wow. So you made the decision to dispose of your phone without consulting anybody about the decision to throw out your phone, Correct? Yes.
- [137:33]
Co-Host
So the timing is suspicious, which means potentially they have some sort of connection with the inside. Right. And it makes me feel like if the FBI wasn't involved in this case, I don't know if, you know, they will win this case because, you know, The Camton, Boston, Massachusetts, the Judge, D.A. everyone's like, you know, in the same team.
- [138:01]
Host
Allegedly.
- [138:02]
Co-Host
Allegedly.
- [138:02]
Host
Right? Yeah, it's very scary.
- [138:05]
Co-Host
Yeah.
- [138:05]
Host
Yeah, it's very scary. I also think him getting on this case because regardless of what you think of Alan Jackson and his previous current clients. He is a big name. I think that did bring a lot more attention as well. And I think it brought a lot of pressure because he's not just someone that's going to walk in and be like, oh, everything's weird. Let me just clock in, clock out.
- [138:29]
Co-Host
Yeah.
- [138:30]
Host
I mean, not that David Yanetti or any of the other defense teams were, but he's pretty nationally known.
- [138:35]
Co-Host
Yeah.
- [138:36]
Host
Now, it is weird that Higgins just turns in these text messages and the state trooper. Don't look further into ATF Brian. In any other case, any other situation, a very strong motive that cops love going after is the jealousy motive. But Trooper Buchanan, one of the state investigators, he's asked during his trial. He explains the messages as they were friendly communications. Again, I don't want to put a label on it. They were communications between acquaintances and people that know each other. He's asked if the texts were flirtatious, to which he said, says, as far as flirtatious, I would have to take a look at the content of it for certain terms that would support that label. And the defense is like, okay, sure, here you go. They gave him a pile of text messages between Brian Higgins and Karen Reed. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Now he's reading through it. And many netizens argue Buchanan is stupid. He's also incredibly committed to his role in all of this, because after reading these text messages with a straight face, his lips are becoming progressively, relatively more thin as the trial wears on. He is asked, would you consider those text messages, as you reviewed them from Brian Higgins as being flirtatious or romantic in nature? I would not categorize them to that extent. Certain parts. He's asked to point out. Which parts. The. You're hot. Talking about banging, hooking up. What word would you use to describe them, if not flirtation? My opinion is that this is an angry girlfriend trying to set up a hookup, and that's it. What does that even mean? As a reasonable, objective investigator, is there a possible scenario for Brian Higgins to be jealous about John o'? Keefe? There is a possibility there, but I didn't see it. Based off the totality of the evidence.
- [140:25]
Co-Host
The length these people were going to. To cover each other.
- [140:29]
Host
Yeah.
- [140:29]
Co-Host
Like, when the whole nation is looking at them like, why are you doing this? You look so dumb right now.
- [140:36]
Host
Yeah. His nickname on the Internet is Officer Bukkake. And it's gonna become a thing because one of these witnesses goes on the stand. It's in the next episode, and she's like, I forget his name. I think Officer Bukaki, this is what? This is not real. None of this is real, but it's very real and it makes me me very depressed. There is a clip from the Waterfall Bar that the defense wants everybody to watch. And it is of Brian Albert and ATF Brian pretending to throw punches at each other. They're like play fighting. I don't know why they're doing this. They're acting like high school football players. Some say they're acting like they're play fighting, others saying they look like they're practicing fighting. These are the men that fight invisible ops. They're just like boxing the air at all hours of the day. Brian Albert seemingly seems like the mentor. There is CCTV footage where they're squatting, they're doing like punching stances. They're like air punching. At one point, Brian Albert throws ATF Brian in a bear hug. Then Brian, ATF Brian pretends to push a knee into his stomach. It's just a lot. Brian Albert testifies, we're just fooling around. We're just pushing each other around. Fooling around, around. Oh, so like play fighting. I don't think I would call it play fighting. Practice fighting techniques. I wouldn't call it that. If it's not fighting techniques, how would you describe it? Just joking, being silly. Just fooling around. We were pushing each other, fooling around, joking. Nicole, Brian's husband, also saw this and she says they were just. I saw them fooling around with each other.
- [142:13]
Co-Host
I want to know at what kind of setup you're going to be like, okay, let's just fool around real quick, you know, Let me show you how to, how to take a jab, like, you know what I mean? Mean, like, what's the setup?
- [142:23]
Host
The defense says the setup is, hey, John o' Keefe's coming. What are you going to do to him?
- [142:30]
Co-Host
Right, right, right.
- [142:31]
Host
That's what I'm saying, cuz anything else doesn't make sense.
- [142:33]
Co-Host
Tell me, Brian, like, what made you guys decide to do this? Fooling around.
- [142:38]
Host
If not that, then What? Right?
- [142:40]
Co-Host
Yeah.
- [142:40]
Host
Ms. Albert, when your husband drinks, does he often get into sort of these practice, sparring, practice fighting stances? Is that common for him? No, I don't think so. So this type of behavior was unusual for him? No, I think they were just fooling around. I don't think there was much, anything much to it.
- [142:54]
Co-Host
She was like, damn it. I should have said, that's very common.
- [142:57]
Host
He does it every day to me as well. To everybody. My question was, is it unusual for you to see him sort of practice fighting? I wouldn't call it practice fighting. I think they were just fooling around. And yeah, maybe I've seen him do that other times, but it was just fooling around. They weren't practicing. The defense tries to point out one she sure, Brian Albert is older now, but he is a highly trained fighter. That's how they phrase it. Nicole Albert highly disagrees, but aside from being a Boston police officer, he's trained in the Marine Corps previously and he's a trained boxer. But Brian Albert says that this is just joking around. It's just him fooling around. But Brian Albert also states when he's asked about Brian Higgins, he's like, hey, is ATF Brian your friend? He's not like, define friends.
- [143:43]
Co-Host
You define friends.
- [143:45]
Host
He's like, define friends. We just kind of know each other from work. I don't know if I would call him friends. The defense is like, you've known this man for 15 years. You just took a four hour long road trip with him. He came over to your house, you're fooling around in a bar and you would not categorize yourself as friends. To which he finally is like, we are friends. We are friends. Yeah, we're friends.
- [144:07]
Co-Host
Yo, this is crazy. You know, like they, they interview people every day now. Tables flipped all of a sudden, so bad. So bad.
- [144:17]
Host
I saw one netizen put it way better than I can explain it. It's extra insulting because they're evil and they're dumb and they're getting away with it. So it's like just spitting in the public space over and over again. Just being. Because what, you're law enforcement? He says, yeah, we're good friends. We were just fooling around. You just said you weren't friends. Define friends. Right? Meanwhile, ATF Brian does not get the memo because he describes Brian Albert as he's a good friend. He's a coworker. You know, I've been working very closely with his unit. I would say he's a good friend. I mean, there's no secrets here, right? He's my friend. Netizens comment. It's like pulling teeth to get regular answers from these people. Never. The defense states whether or not they were play fighting has importance. And they're like, Brian, you're a fighter, aren't you? A side note, there are rumors online that Brian Albert had gotten into a fight with another cop at a Christmas party before. It seems like he has a propensity for Fighting as well as this one.
- [145:18]
Co-Host
Colin Arbor.
- [145:21]
Host
ATF Bryan had allegedly told the feds against again that Chief Berkowitz is also scared of Brian Albert. So maybe he is a fighter, but he really tries to downplay this during the trial to the point where attorney Jackson tries to break it down. What was your job title? Sergeant detective. That means you not only respond to incidents, you actually conduct investigations as a detective, correct? Yes. Primarily fugitive investigations. You have additional training in order to hold the title and hold the position as a detective, is that right? Yes. Not just regular patrol officer, you have have to have special training to get the rank of detective, is that right? Yes. As a sergeant detective, that's above a regular detective. Indeed. Because you're supervising detectives, is that right? Yes. You're also trained in techniques. Obviously any detective would be trained in techniques that a culprit might use, suspects might use, correct? No. So in all your training, 30 years of a Boston police officer and a sergeant detective, you don't have any training in. I don't know what techniques criminals might use to cover up their conduct. No. I have never gone to training for criminals to cover up conduct. No. He also downplays all of his physical training. He acts like he's just a patrol officer. Not that anything's wrong with the patrol officer, but he's just like, I'm not that fit, I'm not that strong. I'm not a big guy, I'm weak. I'm dainty and frail. In the reality show Boston's Finest in episode three, there's a whole thirst trap level boxing segment of Brian Albert just going at it at the boxing gym. And it's a voiceover of him saying. Saying you have to have undercover police officers actually going out posing as buyers and making drug buys. It's dangerous work. Anything can happen. And he's like double fisting a small punching bag. He clearly knows what he's doing. And again, netizens think, why does he have to be so evasive? You would imagine that a lot of these law enforcement officers are somewhat physically trained. One comment reads, if you look very closely, their noses are growing. Others say, come on, this is so bad, he can't even remember what he talked about an hour ago. Some say Brian Albert is like a slippery snake. Others say Karen Reed should get the max penalty for putting these people through all of this. This is awful.
- [147:29]
Co-Host
Maybe he knows that being suspicious will not be charged. Yeah, but if he says anything, you know, then he's cooked.
- [147:40]
Host
Yeah. And I do think that it's gets Extra cautious because the feds.
- [147:46]
Co-Host
Yeah, yeah.
- [147:48]
Host
And in the reality show, Brian Albert even says it's very rewarding when someone commits a crime or they hurt somebody and you're the person that actually catches them. It's probably one of the best things you can do. At the end of the show, Boston's finest, they end with a voiceover and it says, the decision to become a police officer is never an easy one. But for these men and women of the Boston Police Department, in the end, it was the only decision they could make. Some joined the force to protect the streets where they grew up, some to say thanks to the new city that welcomed them in. Every day, they take to the streets without fail, carrying with them the love they have for their families, the memories of the friends they've lost, all their hopes, all their fears. They do it. They do it for the city of Boston.
- [148:34]
Co-Host
That was Brian talking.
- [148:35]
Host
No. Narrator. With September 4, 2023, before the first trial for Karen Reed, Brian Albert is no longer doing that because he retires from Boston Police Department.
- [148:47]
Co-Host
Okay.
- [148:49]
Host
Nicole Albert, Brian's wife, fellow homeowner of 34 Fairview Road, testifies. This is Jen McCabe's sister. She's also a part time lunch lady. That's how she calls it. During direct. Direct. She says, you know, John came into the waterfall. She doesn't really know John o'. Keefe. She says, I didn't know him that well. I think I'd met him only once, maybe twice through my sister. Brief interactions. I think when he actually first walked in, I didn't recognize him. I think I said to someone, oh, who's that? Because they were kind of walking towards our table and someone said, oh, that's John o'. Keefe. And I said, oh, I'd never met Karen. I had only ever met John once or twice. And it's interesting because your husband is on the same police department as John o'. Keefe. But she says, I don't believe he ever worked with my husband. I don't believe they ever crossed paths at work. And to be fair, Boston Police department is about 3,000 officers. Wow. So it does seem feasible if they don't cross paths often. Now Nicole says she doesn't have a single interaction with Karen. She says, I had none. I don't believe we spoke or we even introduced ourselves or anything. I don't think we spoke at all. In fact, Nicole states in her testimony she didn't even know that John and Karen were coming up. Over the rest of the evening, they go home. It's relatively normal. Nicole says that she just started cleaning the kitchen when she got home and everybody left, she stayed cleaning the kitchen a little more while her husband, Brian Albert went upstairs to watch TV in bed. And Elizabeth Little is asking her, Ms. Albert, what is the first thing you remember waking up to in the morning of January 29th? My sister just bombing into my bedroom.
- [150:19]
Co-Host
Mm.
- [150:20]
Host
Did you hear any fire trucks that morning? I did not. Did you hear any ambulances? I did not. You didn't see any flashing lights of emergency vehicles outside your bedroom window? I didn't. My blinds were shut, My curtains were closed. I didn't see anything. Nicole and Brian Albert will both report that Jen burst into their room hysterical. And it's kind of interesting because if you watch the dash cam footage, if you listen to the 911 call or the testimonies of anyone at the scene that morning, nobody describes Jen as being hysterical except these two.
- [150:50]
Co-Host
Yeah. She was so calm. She was. I know, I know.
- [150:54]
Host
Yes.
- [150:55]
Co-Host
Even the 911 call, she was calm.
- [150:58]
Host
The only person that was not calm was Karen Reid.
- [151:00]
Co-Host
Yes.
- [151:01]
Host
So they're like she was hysterical, bursting in through the door. Now that's weird because they both testify that Chloe slept in the room with them that night.
- [151:11]
Co-Host
Huh.
- [151:13]
Host
If I were Jen, I know my sister has a dog.
- [151:17]
Co-Host
Right.
- [151:18]
Host
A 70 pound German shepherd that doesn't like strangers. Maybe perhaps is startled easily. I'm not bursting into your room.
- [151:25]
Co-Host
Yeah, yeah.
- [151:27]
Host
Also, if my brother in law is a cop, I'm not bursting into your room.
- [151:32]
Co-Host
Right, right, right.
- [151:33]
Host
To wake you up from asleep. And by this point that Jen is is bursting into their room. John o' Keefe has already been taken into the ambulance. So it doesn't make sense. The only time that that would make sense, that for her to be bursting into their room is nobody's there. They need to save John. He's a first responder. Yeah, it's weird. Caitlyn Albert, the eldest Albert daughter, Caitlin, works for the Massachusetts Attorney General's office in the Medicaid fraud division. She. She is the eldest child of the main Alberts. At this point, she would have been 33 years old. And she testifies that that Morning on the 28th, she meets up with her mom, Nicole Albert, and her aunt, Julie Albert, and they go to the waterfall together. So Julie, Nicole and Caitlin, and Caitlyn shows up with her fiance, Tristan.
- [152:34]
Co-Host
Ah, I see.
- [152:36]
Host
Who does not want to be there.
- [152:38]
Co-Host
Okay.
- [152:38]
Host
There's a blizzard coming in. He had gotten offered to do some snow plowing. So what he's gonna do most of the night is while everybody's asleep during the blizzard. He's gonna stay up and he's gonna get a call maybe around 3am they're gonna be like, hey, come to this street and plow this street.
- [152:54]
Co-Host
Like his job, his side gig, it's.
- [152:56]
Host
Like a side gig.
- [152:57]
Co-Host
Okay.
- [152:58]
Host
So that's why he ends up leaving bar early. He's like, bye Caitlyn, love you, I'm leaving. He leaves the bar and Caitlyn says she remembers at the waterfall she asked her mom, who's John o'? Keefe? Caitlyn says that she does not know who John o' Keefe is. But a man walks into the bar with who now she knows is Karen Reed. And he seemed very friendly with their group of family and friends. Her mom tells her, oh, that's John. Which I mean Nicole just said that someone told her that's John. So I don't know if they're playing telephone or what, what? But her mom tells her it's John and Caitlin instantly knows it's him because everybody in Canton knows about his niece and nephew being raised by him after his sister passed. But she doesn't really talk to John or Karen at all. Nothing eventful happens at the bar. Caitlyn goes home with her parents and the same things are repeated about the birthday party. Everyone's in the kitchen, everyone can see everyone just hanging out. Good times. Everybody leaves one by one. Caitlyn doesn't hear anything strange, she doesn't see anything, anything strange. Everyone leaves and eventually Caitlyn is the last to go. So by the end of the night, inside the house are just Brian, Albert, Nicole Albert, Brian Albert Jr. And Chloe the dog, and John O' Keefe outside. But Caitlin leaves what time around 2.
- [154:14]
Co-Host
Huh.
- [154:14]
Host
Her boyfriend Tristan comes to pick her up, which netizens think that's so weird because Tristan just left the waterfall because he has to wake up overnight to go plow the roads. But then he leaves the waterfall, leaves Caitlyn there and then Caitlyn goes back home to 34 Fairview for like an hour and a half and then gets picked up.
- [154:34]
Co-Host
And they're again, they didn't see anything. Nobody saw John o' Keefe outside?
- [154:41]
Host
No.
- [154:42]
Co-Host
And at this point it's not even really snowing, correct or no? Barely.
- [154:47]
Host
Barely snowing. Well, it's snowing, but the snow, snow is just starting to accumulate. Like you can still see grass is what a lot of them testify.
- [154:56]
Co-Host
That's crazy.
- [154:57]
Host
Yeah, it's not like white out conditions until the next Morning.
- [155:01]
Co-Host
Right. And how do all of them explain.
- [155:03]
Host
That they just weren't looking? They weren't looking. They couldn't see it. It's dark outside. But they see lots of other things outside, such as tire tracks in the snow from Karen's car. Alex allegedly speeding up to hit John o'. Keefe. Now the defense starts into something else though, when they start questioning Caitlin Albert. She's very close friends with firefighter paramedic Katie McLaughlin. Now during the cross examination, she's asked, who is Katie McLachlan? And she responds, Katie McLachlan is a girl who I'm in the same age and we went to high school together. We graduated the same year. We have a couple of mutual friends. We interact with some of the same people, social media. I don't really, I can't think of a time possibly ever where her and I ever hung out one on one individually. And so more of like a friend of a mutual friend. There is a lot of just explanation here, just non stop. I mean, the defense is bringing up photos and she just has to keep repeating, this is like a mutual friend of a friend of a friend. And like I barely know this girl. And then there's like pictures of them in small group settings at her dorm when she was in college. And then people, she's just like, I mean, just like a mutual friend, like a friend of a friend friend. And then even in these group photos, I would understand if it's one thing if they're on the other side of this massive group photo every single time, but a lot of the times they're right next to each other. It just doesn't make sense. Like it looks a little bit strange. And she keeps over explaining that they just have mutual friends, which is fine if that's the only connection that she has. But Caitlyn Albert is also pretty close. Close with Michael Proctor's wife. She's not on here. She's gonna be on here in the next one. Elizabeth Proctor.
- [156:47]
Co-Host
Okay. What's their relationship?
- [156:48]
Host
Just friendly friends.
- [156:51]
Co-Host
What? Okay.
- [156:52]
Host
She says that when Michael Proctor starts interviewing her about this case, she doesn't tell him, hey, I'm friends with your wife or anything. Just nothing. The least of her concerns. Like she doesn't care. Right. And she really doesn't because the defense have other things that they're harping on her about. Another strange thing is that Caitlyn's mom, Nicole testified previously before the grand jury that Caitlyn left the Albert residence at around 12 midnight. She was one of the first people to leave. And now she's testifying that Caitlyn was the very last person to leave. Same thing with Brian. The story changes. It's weird. To which the defense asks Brian Albert, were you trying to cover for Caitlyn so your daughter would not be wrapped up in this investigation? Because if she left early, it's likely there would be some time overlap to when Karen's vehicle is outside or something.
- [157:45]
Co-Host
I don't follow.
- [157:46]
Host
If she left around 12, she would have seen more outside. She would have to go outside. Karen's car is outside. There's another car that's outside. It might be just a little bit trickier.
- [157:59]
Co-Host
They're saying that it's easier story wise for her to leave later.
- [158:04]
Host
Yes. So she stays in the house. She never looks outside the window. She doesn't see Karen's car pull up, she sees nothing, she hears nothing. And then by the time she leaves, she doesn't look at the front lawn and she just leaves.
- [158:17]
Co-Host
Okay. But I mean, regardless, just the changing of the story, what's going on, to.
- [158:22]
Host
Which netizens believe that Caitlyn had every intention to sleep over at 34 Fairview? Netizens are like, it's not even the time change. That's weird. Netizens believe that Caitlin Albert had every intention to sleep over at her parents house. That's why Tristan goes home from the waterfall. And she's like, I'm just gonna sleep over at my parents house. And then something happens. So now she's like, okay, you gotta come pick me up because I can't be here when the cops get here tomorrow or whenever they get get here. That's the allegation, that's the theory, that's the suspicion. There are also speculations that she left the house that night with Chloe. What? Yeah.
- [159:07]
Co-Host
That's why there's no barking. Maybe.
- [159:10]
Host
And Jen McCabe says she didn't see Chloe.
- [159:12]
Co-Host
That's true. You can easily hear a dog barking in the house. Easily.
- [159:16]
Host
So where did Chloe, Chloe go?
- [159:18]
Co-Host
Oh my God.
- [159:19]
Host
And why would they not want Chloe there?
- [159:22]
Co-Host
Right. Wow.
- [159:26]
Host
Now it doesn't make sense that Tristan Morris would just come pick her up. So he is also brought to the stand and he is bizarrely hostile during the cross examination. The defense's attorney is just trying to ask him, Were you at 34 Fairview Road in Canton at 1:45 in the morning on January 20 29, 2022? I don't remember the time. Was it wildly different than 1:45 in the morning or was it somewhat close to that I'm not gonna make up a time. I don't remember. Was it 9pm on the 28th? I don't remember times. So if I asked you if you were there to pick up Caitlin on 9pm on January 28, you couldn't say if that's true or false? No, because I'm not gonna make up a time. I'm not gonna make up a time. What time were you at the waterfall? I don't remember. It was nighttime time. What time did you leave the waterfall? I don't remember. Would you leave at 5pm? I don't remember. Could it have been 5 in the morning? I don't know. I. I feel like he has a relatively easy testimony. Like in the eyes of the jurors. I don't think anyone really cares about this guy. All you did is pick up your girlfriend. Just tell us if there's a dog in the car, tell us why you picked up your girlfriend, that's it. And get out of here. But he, yeah. Oh, he's getting very defensive. He doesn't remember anything at all.
- [160:39]
Co-Host
He doesn't want to put himself at the time if there was something going on outside or not.
- [160:46]
Host
Yeah, he will, like he will respond, I don't remember. Before the question is done being asked and there were no obstructions between you and the front lawn blocking your view, Correct? I wouldn't be staring at the grass. So no, I didn't ask you where you were staring. I was just asking if there were any obstructions. And the answer to that question is no. Later, during redirect, Tristan is asked why he went back to get Caitlyn if it wasn't part of the plan. Caitlyn told him that she doesn't want to get snowed in at her parents house. But this blizzard is not new information to anyone in the town of Kansas. So it's weird. Tristan just responds to that. Well, she's high maintenance and I didn't really want to have to do with her. And now they're married. They got married after all of this. Brian, Albert Jr. Birthday Brian, he sits down on the witness stand. Netizens do point out that he has very distinctive facial hair, but that is neither here nor there. He joined his father in wearing the defendant attire to the witness stand. Collared shirt, sweater. But this biggest part about his testimony that's alarming is that the very first time that birthday bride, despite being in the house at night and all morning while John's body is found outside in the front lawn, the first time law Enforcement officers talk to him, interview him. Is 18 months after John's death a whole new calendar year? It's in 2023. And that is done by Proctor. And Birthday Brian has a lawyer present. And the interview is actually done at Birthday Brian's family attorney's office.
- [162:18]
Co-Host
18 months later.
- [162:20]
Host
Yes.
- [162:22]
Co-Host
What is going on?
- [162:23]
Host
And it's not like people were trying to hide his existence there. Everybody knew he was there. Yeah, it was his 23rd birthday. He says that his friends come over. Julie and Sarah and a few other girlfriends come over and his mom just got picked up by his Aunt Julie. So Julie picks up Nicole, Caitlyn and Tristan go to the waterfall. So now it's just Birthday Brian and all of his buddies at the the house. They order food from a place called D and E Pizza that is owned by Chris and Julie Albert and they start getting drunk. Everybody's primary drink of choice is White claws. Now by 11pm most of his friends are gone. So he says it's just me, Colin, Julie and Sarah. That's who's over when the Albert parents and Caitlyn get home. So these three are the first people to get home home. And as they're coming in, they say, Colin is leaving. He's like, my ride is here, my ride's coming back.
- [163:28]
Co-Host
Who's his ride? A friend.
- [163:32]
Host
Allison McCabe.
- [163:35]
Co-Host
Who is that again?
- [163:35]
Host
Jen and Matt McCabe's daughter.
- [163:38]
Co-Host
Jen and Matt McCabe's daughter.
- [163:42]
Host
Brian Albert's cousin on his mom's side.
- [163:45]
Co-Host
Uh huh.
- [163:45]
Host
And Colin is Brian Albert's cousin on his dad's side. So technically Colin Albert and Alison McCabe are not cousins, basically. Cousins.
- [163:56]
Co-Host
What?
- [163:56]
Host
Oh, and there's so many suspicious.
- [163:59]
Co-Host
What?
- [164:00]
Host
Yeah.
- [164:00]
Co-Host
Wow.
- [164:01]
Host
And so he leaves and Brian says, you know, my mom came in, she just gets straight to cleaning. She likes to clean. I don't know why he says that. And she was in the kitchen picking up. He also says eventually JJ comes in.
- [164:15]
Co-Host
JJ.
- [164:16]
Host
Jen, he calls her Auntie JJ, which JJ is also the nickname for John O' Keefe from his nephew and niece. So Auntie JJ comes in and it seems like Brian Albert Jr. Birthday Brian and Auntie JJ are very close. So they're very close?
- [164:31]
Co-Host
Uh huh.
- [164:33]
Host
I mean it seems like all the Alberts are close, but it's weird because birthday Brian and JJ seem close, but birthday Brian and Allison McCabe don't seem close because at one point Birthday Brian is asked about a group chat with all the cousins. Like a Snapchat group chat with all the cousins. And they're like the defense attorney is like, what about Ally McCabe? Is she on there? And he's like, no, she's not an Albert. Okay. Yeah. Birthday Brian testifies that he didn't see anyone else physically come inside the house after Auntie JJ and Matt McKay. But he did poke his head towards the window and he did see a car outside. And the reason that he went to that window was because outside the house were Ryan Nagle, Heather Maxson and Ricky. Ricky D. What? Ryan is Julie's brother.
- [165:25]
Co-Host
Uh huh.
- [165:26]
Host
And he's here to pick up Julie. And so Julie goes outside.
- [165:31]
Co-Host
Yeah.
- [165:31]
Host
And Brian Albert looks out the window and he sees Ryan and Ricky's car. But he also sees another dark colored SUV who everyone presumes to be Karen.
- [165:42]
Co-Host
Reed and John o'. Keefe.
- [165:45]
Host
And John o'. Keefe. Birthday Brian says he looks out the window twice, sees the dark SUV pull up and eventually keeps pulling up towards the flag pole which is on the very right side of the property. He doesn't see anything strange. He doesn't hear screaming, he doesn't hear the sound of screeching tires, a collision. He doesn't see a man in the snow on the the lawn. But he does at one point see tire tracks in the snow. He's looking past the lawn now and he can see tire tracks. And Jen McCabe later testifies that she also saw tire tracks. But Nobody sees a 210 pound six foot one man in the lawn.
- [166:23]
Co-Host
Yeah, that makes no sense. Who's Heather and Ricky?
- [166:27]
Host
Ryan Nagle's friend. Ricky D. Is actually the one driving. It's Ricky D's guy car.
- [166:32]
Co-Host
Okay.
- [166:32]
Host
Now Heather is Ryan Nagel's girlfriend at the time. They're no longer together.
- [166:37]
Co-Host
Okay, so there's three people in the car.
- [166:39]
Host
Yeah.
- [166:40]
Co-Host
Okay.
- [166:40]
Host
Now Brian says as for inside the house, he didn't see anyone come in, he didn't see anyone go up and down the basement stairs, nothing. And then everybody leaves. Eventually he goes up to his bedroom on the second floor that faces the backyard. He falls asleep, wakes up 7:38am and he says, I can't recall the exact time. I know previous testimony I may have said earlier, but I don't believe it was that early. I would say 7:38. My dad knocked on my door, I threw on some clothes, I went downstairs to the main floor of the house. And he did not wake up from emergency vehicles noises or dogs barking or screaming, just his dad knocking on his door to tell him what happened. That is when he finds out. He says he doesn't know John o' Keefe, personally, he says, I knew he was friendly with my Auntie John. JJ and that's it. Now, Jen and Matt McCabe, their testimonies are going to be in part three and four because, I mean, I think we know everything that's going to be said. I think their testimonies are more important in the actual investigation sense of how they interact with all the troopers because they are doing some suspicious things. They're being weird. And so that's going to be in 3 and 4. But they pretty much say the same thing. Jen is like, I'm texting John. He's not coming in. I see the dark suv. I look out the window multiple times. I see tomorrow tire tracks in the snow. Nobody comes in. I don't see screeching. I don't see screaming. I don't hear anything. And I thought they left. Same with Matt McKay. Now, the other two that are in the house, birthday, Brian's two friends, Julie Nakel and Sarah Levinson. Now, Julie says that they order pizza. They're having a good time, but she's been there for like six hours at this point. So at 12:15am she texts her brother, hey, can you come pick me up? Side note, Julie says she has no idea how long it took from that text message to be sent for him to drive up out outside. He texts Julie, hey, I'm outside now. Instead of announcing to the group that her brother is outside and she will be going home now and retiring for the night, instead of that, she's like, wait, my brother's outside. I kind of don't want to leave. All of a sudden, Jen and Matt McCabe are like, we'll drive you home. So she goes out into the snow and I guess with no intention of leaving, she walks up to the pickup truck and she asks her brother and his friends, do you guys want to come inside ride? We're drinking and having fun. Brother is like, no, I absolutely do not. I want to go home. Do you want to go or not? She's like, no, I'm going to catch a ride with the McCabes instead. So she goes back inside the house and this whole thing is so confusing because on one hand she says that the McCabes offered her a ride. On the other hand, she's like, well, when I went out there to talk to my brother, I didn't know that I was going to get a ride from the McCabes. It's just confusing. But a big part of her testimony is Julie states that she sees a Dark colored SUV outside the house, potentially Karen's car. But she states that she doesn't notice that car when she goes outside to talk to her brother. She thinks that the car pulled up near the end of her conversation with her brother.
- [169:33]
Co-Host
Okay.
- [169:34]
Host
And then once she gets back inside, she looks out the window and that's when she notices, hey, there's a car out there. But she doesn't mention anything. She just takes a note of it. And later, when she looks outside the window, it's pulled up near the flag pole. And she's asked when it was pulling up, Ms. Nagel, it wasn't going like 50 miles per hour, correct? I mean, I didn't have a raider gun on me, but no. Ryan Nagle then testifies, and this is during the first trial. He says that he was at a restaurant called the Hillside. And he gets a text message from his sister and he's there with Ricky and Heather. And he decides that they're going to pick up Julie after they're done eating. Ryan is like, I don't know how long I was there, probably for another 40 minutes. Because Julie never said she was in a rush. So it's just like, can you pick me up on your way home? They stay for another 40 minutes before finally leaving for the Albert residence, which is about a seven minute drive. And as they're pulling onto the street of Fairview Road, they notice another dark colored suv. And Ricky, the driver, he lets them pass. So he's. They're at like an intersection and he's like, okay, you go first. That car is Karen reed and John O'. Keefe. They park right in front of 34 Fair. And Ryan, Ricky and Heather park behind them. So they, okay, flagpole is on the right side, driveway is on the left side. Mailboxes, left side, front door is kind of center. Now they're saying that they're parked, kind of blocking the driveway, maybe towards the mailbox. This SUV is probably past the front door, but nowhere near the flagpole.
- [171:05]
Co-Host
Got it.
- [171:06]
Host
So just kind of smack dab in the middle. Ryan testifies that he never sees anyone get out of the SUV while he's there. Now, side note, there are random inconsistencies between Julie and Ryan Nagel's testimonies. I don't know if they're of importance, but just to put it out there, Julie is firm that when she walked out the front door and walked down the walkway to see her brother, he's saying she came out the side door. She's like, no, I came out the Front door. She claims he rolled down the window to talk to her. He's like, no, I opened the passenger seat door because it's a truck. So in order for her to get into the back seat, I have to open the passenger. Passenger, front door. It's like one of those doors that you got to open both. You know, those trucks.
- [171:40]
Co-Host
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [171:41]
Host
No. But the biggest problem in their testimonies is Julie states that the dark colored SUV is not there when she goes out to talk to her brother. Ryan Nagel says, that dark colored SUV got there before we got there and we passed it on our way out. Julie says, well, it was like the SUV wasn't there when my brother was there and it was before when I was inside. I noticed it. So she, like, it's very confusing now. She's saying, like, it was there before she went outside. Prosecutor Lally confirms with her. And so at the time that you were talking to your brother in the pickup truck, was the SUV still there? I don't believe so, no. Meanwhile, Ryan Nagel is testifying. He notices the SUV the whole time, the whole time, he noticed the brake lights were on. Nothing was wrong with the tail light. He didn't see anybody get out of the suv. It was kind of inching forward. It wasn't driving. We were thinking it just looked like it was inching forward and forward and that's it. Eventually they leave because Julie's not coming, and they drive past the SUV and Ricky, Heather and Ryan Nagle testified that the dome light, like the inside light of the car is on and they only see a woman on the driver's seat with her hands on the 10 and two on the steering wheel.
- [172:54]
Co-Host
No man.
- [172:55]
Host
No man.
- [172:56]
Co-Host
What?
- [172:57]
Host
The defense tries to infer that John o' Keefe probably already went inside and these three were just not really focusing on the suv. You know, they mentioned multiple times, it's not like they were. They didn't really care about who was in the suv. They're on their phones, they're talking to each other, they're talking to Julie. At any point, John o' Keefe could have gone inside and they didn't see it. Now the prosecution is arguing, well, the dome light, the inside light, automatically turns on when the car door opens. So they're saying John just opened the car door and Karen's about to like do a three point turn and hit him. Oh, because the tail light is fine. There's no man on the lawn.
- [173:38]
Co-Host
Yes.
- [173:38]
Host
You know, where's John?
- [173:40]
Co-Host
So it's all happening at the same time.
- [173:42]
Host
So the prosecution is saying as they're passing, they're passing the driver's side so Karen's blocking their view. They can't see that John just got out. They defense is kind of inferring what kind of crazy coincidence is that. It would make more sense that John o' Keefe is inside the house and Karen is just waiting for him and she's getting agitated because also the prosecution theory is that they were fighting and then she ran him over. But all three of them testified there was no screaming, there was no yelling. They heard if he's leaving as they're fighting, I would imagine that, that she's screaming. So based on the fact that they don't see a broken tail light, they don't see anybody on the front lawn and they don't see John inside the car, it's either he is right outside the car or he is inside the house. Those are really the only two options. But the biggest question that never gets answered is Julie Nagel wanted to go home at 12:15am she has been there since 6pm for over six hours. Now. She's ready to go home, home. Her brother's almost here. All of a sudden she changes her mind and decides that she's going to stay two more hours with Jen McCabe. And it almost seems like Jen McCabe and Matt McCabe want them to stay. There's almost a little bit of convincing of like, oh my gosh, well, it just passed midnight. It's now Brian's birthday. It wasn't yesterday. It's Brian's birthday now. Why don't you get your brother to come in? Now this is a crazy risky theory that netizens have. But some netizens theorize that all the senior Alberts needed them here because they're the best alibi. Otherwise it's just a bunch of family members and that's not gonna look good.
- [175:21]
Co-Host
So the theory is something happened in the basement, but Julie had no idea.
- [175:28]
Host
The theory is that John came around back into the basement entrance for some reason. Maybe someone came out through the back and was like, hey, come in this way. Some net is. This is again a theory, an allegation. We could all just have vivid imaginations that have really just no connection to truth or reality. We could be completely delusional. But some netizens believe that he came around back to the basement, walked down the steps, entered the basement where Brian ATF Brian and Brian Albert and perhaps even Colin. Some people put Colin there, some people don't. It really depends who you are and what theory you go with. With. They're in the basement. A fight breaks out. He passes away relatively quickly because it's a very fatal head wound where he becomes immediately incapacitated. So there's not a lot of noise. There's not a lot of screaming. Maybe there's some barking from Chloe, maybe, maybe not. They're kind of all drunk. They're on the first floor. And Jen McCabe, Nicole Albert is like, well, why don't you guys stay? They're kind of mediating. I don't know why they would say that. Nobody was in the basement, though. Everybody was hanging out in the main floor.
- [176:39]
Co-Host
Oh, is that what they said?
- [176:40]
Host
So that's the part that gets me. However, this girl, Julie Nagel, I don't see her as a very reliable witness.
- [176:48]
Co-Host
Why is that?
- [176:49]
Host
Just the way that she's testifying on the stand. It just. Even the. The fact that she said that Karen's car wasn't there when she went outside. I don't know if she's perhaps was too drunk that night to remember or recall details. Well, she just doesn't give. She gives me, like, she's very big fans of the McAlberts. She also calls Jennifer McCabe, JJ. Julie Nagle does testify that when she does finally leave Fairview road, it's Matt McCabe driving, Jen McCabe in the front, and then Julie Nagle, Sarah Levins in the back. And she says that as they're leaving, she looks out the window, and she's, like, furthest away from the Albert house. So she's right behind the driver's side, which means Jen in the passenger side and Sarah Levinson next to Julie are gonna be closest to the Albert residence. She looks through the window, and she sees what she calls a, quote, black blob on the lawn near the flagpole. And she says, did you guys see that?
- [177:48]
Co-Host
That's crazy. Crazy.
- [177:49]
Host
And the prosecutors are asking her, no. The defense is also asking her, can you see how big the blob was? 5-6ft she says in the car, something along the lines of, did you guys see that? I think I see something. She says, I did say out loud. I was like, I think I might have seen something. I'm not kind of sure what it was, but I was also intoxicated drinking, so I didn't really know what I saw. But Sarah was like, what, Julie? And I was like, I don't know what it was. And then that was kind of really it. Matt McCabe denies this conversation ever happened. He says if it happened, he didn't hear it at all. Because that calls into question. Well, first of all, why don't they do anything about it? You don't think it's weird that your friend pulls up and is parking near that area and they never come in? They don't text you back. They don't pick up your phone calls afterwards? And then now someone sees a black blob. That's huge. Or sees something. I feel like I would have just stopped. But let's say you don't stop that night. Jed McCabe. The next morning, she gets a phone call. You didn't think that she would put two and two together? Together of like, wait a minute. I did see their car outside. Now Karen's saying that John never came home. And then, oh, my God. Julie Nagel. Last night was like, I saw something on the lawn. But no, she's like, we gotta go search John's house again. It's weird.
- [178:58]
Co-Host
What time did all of them leave?
- [179:00]
Host
They said they left around, like, 131 45.
- [179:05]
Co-Host
Huh.
- [179:05]
Host
And Julien Aigle, they drive past this black blob. She goes home the next day, she says she puts two and two together. When she realizes John o' Keefe was found in the lawn, she's like, oh, my gosh. Now what does she do with this information? Nothing. She never talks about this black blob, like, ever again. So a lot of people think that she's making it up for the sole purpose of placing John there.
- [179:28]
Co-Host
When did she release that information?
- [179:29]
Host
It's October 2022. And then the trial is when she starts talking about how the blob was six feet tall. Like, it's a very large black blob.
- [179:39]
Co-Host
Six feet long.
- [179:40]
Host
Yeah, six feet long.
- [179:41]
Co-Host
Okay.
- [179:41]
Host
The defense even questions it that publicly. Everyone by that point was like, how can nobody see? How did nobody see leaving the house? And then suddenly Julia is like, wait, you guys, I saw.
- [179:55]
Co-Host
Yeah. And it's weird that none of them, like Jen McKay or Matt McKay or anybody said that. Oh, yeah, I didn't see. But Julia said she saw this.
- [180:03]
Host
So Sarah, she'll testify later that they already had driven past the flagpole by the time she looked. So I guess she's trying to explain, like, her reaction time was too slow. So Julia's like, I see something over there. And then Sarah's like, and they've already. They're now looking at the neighbor's lawn. Jennifer McCabe is like, I was turned around, literally body twisted towards the back seat so I could have a little conversation. With them. And we are joking about PB&J. Sandals.
- [180:28]
Co-Host
Oh, you remember PB&J, but you don't.
- [180:30]
Host
Remember most everything else.
- [180:32]
Co-Host
That's crazy.
- [180:33]
Host
Yeah. And if you thought that was weird, if you thought that was weird, you're in for a treat because Jen McCabe. Later on, Jen McCabe texts Julie Nagle for screenshots of text messages between Julie Nagle and Ryan Nagle about what time she texted him to come pick her up and what time he texted her that he was here. Why does Jennifer McCabe need those text messages?
- [181:01]
Co-Host
Correct.
- [181:01]
Host
And why does she need screenshots?
- [181:04]
Co-Host
Correct.
- [181:04]
Host
Okay. That's what they're asking. The defense is asking Julie, when Jennifer McCabe, as you call her JJ, asked you for screenshots of the text messages that you had with your Brother, did Jen McCabe tell you that she was investigating this case? No. And you have no memory of providing those screenshots to any investigator other than Jen McCabe, correct? I don't remember. No. Why would she need those? Why would Jen McCabe need those?
- [181:26]
Co-Host
Now, do we know when did Jen McCabe ask for that information?
- [181:29]
Host
Yes. That's going to be in part three. Because there's so much. I have to group Jen McCabe's all of her stuff together because she's got so much weird stuff that she does. And I feel like each one, one by one, it's so small, but then collectively, it's a mountain.
- [181:42]
Co-Host
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [181:43]
Host
And then Sarah Levinson, she has known Birthday Brian for the past 10 years. She's also in that car. She states that she never saw anybody go near the basement. She never saw anybody on the front lawn. She was so focused on getting to the car without slipping that she didn't even look at the lawn. She was looking at her feet. Nobody saw anything on the lawn. That's it. And then by the time that Julie says, did you guys see that? She. It was past the neighbor's house. Now, a few interesting things come out of Sarah's testimony. She says that at one point, Matt McCabe forgot his coat inside, so he has to leave the car, go back into the house to get his coat. Matt McCabe is like, then it happened. So it's weird. I don't know if that's a huge discrepancy. Oh, and side note, she is asked another detail and she says at the time they were the last ones to leave. You believed that Brian Higgins and Caitlin Albert had left before you, correct? I believe so. So remember Caitlyn Albert? Why did her timeline change? We don't know. But Sarah's like, I'm pretty sure we left after her.
- [182:43]
Co-Host
But Kaylin's issue, she left the lot. Latest.
- [182:46]
Host
None of this is crazy.
- [182:48]
Co-Host
It's just like everyone's just saying random story. It makes you. It almost invalidates everyone's story.
- [182:54]
Host
Yeah.
- [182:55]
Co-Host
Now it's like we don't know who's. Who to trust. Man, is it frustrating to hear these like story. And you were telling me, like, even their first and second trial, their story is so many different.
- [183:07]
Host
Yeah. Like Ryan Nagel has some slight changes in his story. I would. I like to think that he's more of an innocent witness of maybe it's time. Maybe it's memory, maybe it's just bias that's creeps in during that time period. Sarah, on the other hand, I have some questions about her discrepancies. I'm going to go more deep into this in part three because we're going to do a whole deep dive on Chloe as well. But in trial one, Sarah's like, yeah, of course I met chloe. I've been BFFs with Brian Albert Jr. For the past 10 years. Of course I've met Chloe. And then the second trial, the defense is like, you've never met Chloe. Right. And she's like, no, what? Have you met Chloe? Have you not met Chloe? It's not that hard of a question. I mean, you would vividly remember if you met one of your best friend's dogs in the decade that you've known them.
- [183:58]
Co-Host
Wow.
- [183:59]
Host
So there's a lot. I mean, I don't know if that's an innocent mistake. I was trying to wrap my head around how it could be innocent because I try to give the benefit of the doubt, but it was just very weird. Weird. Yeah, it was weird. Now all of them say that Colin Albert left at 12:10am Brian Albert Jr. Says, well, my cousin Colin arrived at the house at some point. I don't recall how he knew I was at my house, but at some point he did call me and said, oh, are you still at your house? I said, yes. He said, do you mind if I come? And I said, no, of course, you're welcome to come by. So he stops by at around 10:45 to 11:00pm but when the Albert parents get home. Home, Colin gets up and says that he's getting picked up. He states, by the time Jen and Matt McCabe walk in, he's already gone. He doesn't even see them. Julie Nagel is also saying that Colin left around sometime around 11:30, 11, 45, before midnight, which is not matching what they're saying. But that could be a drunk discrepancy. I don't know. However, in her testimony, she states Colin left and was not there when any of the adults came. Get back. So it's just weird. During the first trial, Colin Albert does testify and he does State he was 17, turning 18 at the time of John's death. He was a senior in high school. He was four months away from graduation and he's 20. Now that he's testifying, he says that Friday night he went to a guy named Mike's house. His buddy named Mike who was there. I don't remember. What did you do at Mike's house? I don't remember. How did you get to Mike's house? I do not remember. Did you get a ride from someone? Yes. Do you recall from who you got a ride? No. How much did you drink at Mike's house? I do not remember. Side note, this is the prosecution questioning him. He's supposed to be in friendly territory right now. I mean, he very well is. And these are his responses. But after this mysterious Mike's house, Colin testifies that he goes to 34 Fairview Road because, quote, it was my cousin Brian's birthday. So I went over to celebrate for a little bit with him. Do you know how old your cousin was turning on that night? I don't know. Here's something he does know though, which is he got a ride to 34 Fairview from Ally McCabe. So he's saying Ally McCabe, Jen McCabe's daughter. Brian Albert's cousin from his mom's side. No familial blood relation to Colin Al Albert, but like cousins. Cousins, right.
- [186:23]
Co-Host
Yeah.
- [186:24]
Host
Ally McCabe drives to mysterious Mike's house, picks up Colin Albert, and then they drive to the Albert residence. This is where it gets weird. So first of all, he's asked about his connection with Ali McCabe and he just says it's my cousin's cousin. So technically not my cousin, but we're close and we, like, do family events and stuff like that together. They've known each other since they were born. Colin testifies, Ally McCabe gives him a ride. He ends up at the Albert residence at around 10:30, 11:00pm which is not the most time efficient thing because he claims Colin claims he has a midnight curfew.
- [187:00]
Co-Host
Okay?
- [187:01]
Host
So he's got to go home. And again, he's not driving, he doesn't have a car. So he's got no plan. Just vibes and his curfew is coming up in like an hour. He's in the kitchen. He says he's chugging Bud Light. Okay, chugging is an exaggeration on my part. He drinking Bud Light, he's having many alcoholic beverages. But he says that he wasn't intoxicated. Nobody at the party was. Colin says he's about there for maybe an hour and decides to go back home. At 12:10am Colin says Ally McCabe was going to drive him home. He waits for her to send him a text that says, I'm here now. This is what's weird to me. Ali has no intention of coming inside the Albert residence. That doesn't make sense because it's not like Ali and Colin's relationship. If anything, Ali is also Brian Albert jr's direct cousin. So she's not even gonna pop in for two seconds to say Happy birthday.
- [187:53]
Co-Host
Yeah, weird.
- [187:55]
Host
So then Colin says he gets that text message, right? As Brian and Nicole Albert are walking in the house, he's walking out to see Ally McCabe. And we are to assume that Ally McKay picks Colin Albert up up and misses her own mom by like two seconds. So he rushes into the car. That's all he remembers. He doesn't remember which side of the driveway Ali parked the car, whether there was someone else in the car or not, whether there was anybody else in the car after she dropped him off, what side of the car he got into, he doesn't remember anything at all. I get it. Sometimes these memories mean nothing because like, let's say two years down the road, I say, hey, what did you do two years years ago on this random cousin's birthday, you're not going to remember. But if the next day something very eventful happens, you're going to hindsight and memorize everything. So if it's your cousin's birthday and the next day a traumatic incident happens, you're going to replay all the events of yesterday and it's going to be singed into your memory forever. Colin says he gets dropped off, walks into the bedroom, tells his parents that he loves them, good night. That's kind of what he's expected to do do at around 1230 now 1215. Ish. And then he goes to his room and he falls asleep. That's it. While he was at 34 Fairview, he didn't witness anything strange, abnormal, nothing. I mean, he really only saw everyone hanging out. That was it. He didn't run into anybody else. Nothing of importance comes out of this.
- [189:19]
Co-Host
But why did everyone forgot to mention your Name, then.
- [189:22]
Host
Exactly. That is how annoying he is. During the direct examination nation, it's time for his cross where he forgets just about everything minus his name. When he is asked about how he prepared for the trial with anyone, he says, nobody. Then he later is like, oh, yeah, with the prosecutor. And he's asked, so why did you say with nobody? I mean, it's to be expected that you prep. Why did you say no? He's like, well, I don't even remember what we talked about in that session. Even though it was one month prior to the testimony, he doesn't remember what questions he practiced with Ali. He doesn't remember the questions he gave Ali. Nothing. And there is this unhinged moment where defense attorney Jackson is like, well, you've probably been thinking about this case a lot for the past two and a half years. No. How long have you been thinking about this case? Since, I guess people started writing about me on the Internet. How about since you were at a house where an individual ended up dead on the lawn the next morning? Did that prompt you to start thinking about this case? Case? No. Not so much, huh? Nope. You watched any coverage on this case online? Nope. No. Social media? No, I don't have social media. Lie. Okay. Literally a lie. He's on Snapchat. No news coverage? Nope. So literally, according to you, you know zero about the media coverage concerning this case, Commonwealth versus Karen Reed. Karen. Did he not just say that he only started caring about this case once people online started talking about him? The defense continues to ask him very simple questions. Such as, did you talk to Ali before her testimony? No. When was the last time you talked to Ali before she testified? I don't remember. Give me an idea. She's one of your best friends. A week ago, A day ago? A month ago? I don't remember. Couldn't have been a year ago? I do not remember. Could it have been five years ago? No. Okay. So it was more recently than five years ago that you spoke to Ally McCabe? I don't remember. So you have no independent recollection as you sit here the last time you talked to one of your best friends and your cousin about any subject? No, I don't remember. Were you ever told in your preparation for your testimony? If you start to get stumped or nervous, just say, I don't remember. Nope. Nobody ever told you that? No. Sorry. It's okay. So nobody ever informed you that you might get nervous on the witness stand? There might be tough questions. Easiest way to get out of them is just say Yeah, I don't recall. No. So you just don't recall because your memory is that bad. Your testimony is. You were not instructed to say I don't remember. You literally just don't remember. Correct. It's an issue with your memory, not an instruction that you received. Right. But you do remember two and a half years ago, you left 34 Fairview at 12:10am Correct? Down to the minute. Correct. Got it. I need someone to check this one for a brain tumor, for early onset dementia, because the amount of I don't remembers that he utters in his testimony, it got so bad. Bad that the defense straight up asks him, do you remember anything about this case?
- [192:34]
Co-Host
No.
- [192:35]
Host
And there is something he remembers. Like how he slipped on the driveway and landed straight on his knuckles.
- [192:43]
Co-Host
Oh, that's right.
- [192:45]
Host
Remember that? That's right. He remembers that very well. Ally McCabe also testifies the same day, and she testifies that the night before that she ever drops Colin off at 34 Fairview and picks him up. She's hanging out with friends from school and then she just starts driving around. At one point, she sees a dog on the side of the road and they knew that a snowstorm was coming, so they pick up the dog, brought it to the police station, and then drove the dog back to the owner's house once they found out who the owner of the dog was. Now, this is a huge point of contention. Ali describes the small dog as being a small white dog. Not sure what type. This is contentious in the fact that people online have been saying, how can you spot a tiny dog in a blizzard, but you don't spot a full grown adult on your front lawn. Now, to be fair, I will argue that there was no snow accumulating on the ground. However, it likely was pretty dark. And if you can spot a small dog, I feel like you could probably spot a person. It's weird. She states that she gets a text message from Colin to pick her up and drive him him to 34 Fairview. Within an hour, she gets another text message from Colin asking her to pick him up from 34 Fairview and drop him off at his house. She's a free Uber driver at this point, but she goes to pick him up. She states he gets inside the car and right after dropping him off at his house, back to his house. This is 12:10 now it's probably like 12:15. She goes straight. The defense attorney is asking, do you know about what time it was that you got home? Not exactly. I would estimate a little before 12:30. Or around that time. She says that her parents were not home by the time that she gets back. And how much time was it in between the time when you're not home around 12:30 or so and when you went to sleep? Not long. I don't know. Ali also doesn't recall what time she woke up, but both of her parents were home at that point. Which Colin says that he was dropped off at around 12:10am Ali is saying she got home and at around 12:30. They live relatively close together. But it's snowing, she's driving a little slower. The, the times are supposed to check out, but they don't because Ally McCabe has a Life360 app and the app on her phone shows that she does not get home immediately. In fact, she does not get home until 1.32am What's a life360? It's when parents and you can track your whole family on Life360. That is an entire hour discrepancy.
- [195:07]
Co-Host
Yeah.
- [195:08]
Host
Which is fine, I guess, except she's saying that she drove Colin home and then immediately went home. So what time did Colin get home?
- [195:19]
Co-Host
Yeah. Does it not track her location?
- [195:21]
Host
It does. And there are some concerns about like it's, there's like a circle, a border. This is like the school zone, this is the home zone. So it doesn't track what street you're on at what time. It's just like at this time you enter her, this radius that is known as the home zone.
- [195:40]
Co-Host
Oh.
- [195:43]
Host
What's interesting though is Colin Albert and Allison McCabe they say, well, we actually have proof of the time life360, don't trust it. We have text message proof of Colin texting Ally, can you pick me up? Allie texting him, I'm here. And that's around 1212. Text. And she gives these screenshots over to the investigators and they're entered into evidence. I mean this wasn't entered into evidence for a really long time. And she's asked by the defense, why didn't you turn this in immediately? And she says, well, it wasn't relevant. Colin had not been introduced as being in the house at the time.
- [196:22]
Co-Host
Okay, wow.
- [196:25]
Host
Then she says it's also not relevant because Colin wasn't there when John, John was there. Does that mean when John was in the car at 12:30am or is that when John was in the house?
- [196:38]
Co-Host
Right.
- [196:38]
Host
A lot of netizens have pointed out that right after this line of questioning where she has these two little slip ups where people thought, oh, that's not good. She immediately starts. She is asked about how she's been harassed. There's a whole side story of witness tampering and harassment of witnesses, mainly the McAlberts of people believing that they're guilty and harassing them in person, calling them cop killers. And okay, she does start crying about it. And she talks about how people have been calling her school. Half the netizens think that this is a very genuine response of a young girl who probably didn't want to be involved in any of this. And it seems like she's roped into it through her mom, Jen McCabe. If there's anything to even be roped into. These are all theories, these are all conspiracies. The other half of netizens think that she is crying not because of the harassment, but because this comes right after the line of questioning where she slips up twice.
- [197:40]
Co-Host
Now, does she explain why she. Her app showing that she got hung at 1:30.
- [197:44]
Host
She's like, well, that's not accurate.
- [197:47]
Co-Host
Okay.
- [197:48]
Host
Eventually, Colin hands over the thread of text messages between Ali and Colin and that shows Ali texting him that she's here to pick him up. He's responding, coming. Okay, so the date at the top, it says January 28, 2022, 11:54pm the date looks a little weird. It's January 28, comma, 2022 comma, at 11:54pm A lot of iPhone users are like, what's the second comma doing there? We don't know what that second comma is. That's a weird second comma. There's a text from Colin to Ali that reads, you can come get me now if easier. She responds, okay, I'm driving people home now. Word, get me after KK. Then at 12:10am Ali arrives outside the Albert residence, allegedly, and texts here. Colin responds, okay, which is reasonable evidence that she did indeed pick him up at this time that they're saying it can. Except what's submitted into evidence is just a screenshot. These are not the original text messages. There's no metadata. These are screenshots. Anybody over the age of like 6 years old could probably forge a text message in this day and age.
- [198:59]
Co-Host
Yeah.
- [199:00]
Host
First of all, it's not that hard to change the date on your phone and text yourself all sorts of nonsense to make it look like something happened at a given date when it really did not happen at that given date. The defense sense even points to this in their line of questioning because they say, well, that's weird because you have these text messages between you two from January 28, 2022 and January 29. And then you guys don't text until February 20, 2022. So the theory amongst a lot of netizens is that they went deleted all their messages from January 29th to February 20th. So today is February 20th, 2022. They're like, we gotta forge some messages. Allegedly. This is the conspiracy. We have to forge some messages. But we've been texting for a month. We gotta delete all these messages. Then we have to go enter the time, manually change the time on our phone, and start texting as if it's January 28th, January 29th of 2022. And then once we do that, we change the date back to the original date, February 20, 2022, and then we can start texting like normal again. But if you keep the date, if you change the date and you already have text messages from that date, it could not work.
- [200:09]
Co-Host
Yeah. Yeah.
- [200:11]
Host
So they don't text for nearly a month after the incident. Not a single text. People believe that they were texting. It doesn't make sense. They're both arguing that, well, we kind of switch between platforms. So we just moved over to Snapchat. And the defense is like, oh, Snapchat, the place that automatically deletes messages.
- [200:25]
Co-Host
Wow.
- [200:26]
Host
Colin is like, well, I don't know if my settings are like that. And they're like, do you have your phone? Are your settings like that? He's like, I don't remember.
- [200:34]
Co-Host
Yo, this is.
- [200:36]
Host
Others say it doesn't even look like they went through the effort of changing the date. It looks like they photoshopped the date. It just looks bizarre because in another situation, when you are Texting someone at 11:58pm, it's gonna have that date at the very top. It's gonna say January 28th at 11:58pm yeah. And then the minute that 12:00 clock hits 12:01, you send a new message. There's going to be a new date header. Yeah, there's none.
- [201:02]
Co-Host
Can somebody like chat fact check that? Because if that's true, is that really what happens immediately the date, the next day?
- [201:09]
Host
That's. That's what everyone says on Reddit. And I was like, I should try this. And I suddenly morphed to a 70 year old. And I was like, I don't know how to manually set the date. That seems crazy. Maybe I will tonight.
- [201:25]
Co-Host
Wow. Yeah. That's just so much shadiness.
- [201:29]
Host
Some people also think that this is not even. It's misrepresenting the truth. Some people think that Ally McCabe picked up Colin Albert from his buddy Mike's house at 12:10 and then together they went to the Albert restaurant residence. That would make sense because his birthday is past 12. Both of them are cousins. And previously the text message before Jan 28 at 11:50 something PM the one right above it said something along the lines of colin texting Ally McCabe. Mikey is making me do shotguns now. Hahahahaha. And that was early in the morning and it seemed like it was just a completely different day but that could have been the original date and they just didn't delete that much. So people think that they went over to the Albert residence at 12:10 and.
- [202:26]
Co-Host
Then went home at 1:30?
- [202:27]
Host
Yes.
- [202:29]
Co-Host
Also like if the app Live360 or whatever, isn't that a very important app for location for tracking?
- [202:38]
Host
I would say that the witnesses in this case do not believe in the concept of technology. Oftentimes times it seems like technology is a very erroneous method of data. Any of them confronted with anything digitally that they've done?
- [202:56]
Co-Host
Yeah, I don't know.
- [202:58]
Host
It was a butt down. I don't know. Well I, I didn't pick it up so at and t must have it wrong. That's the energy.
- [203:05]
Co-Host
Yeah. I wonder what Life360's main mission is as an app. And if they fail at the fundamental like the most basic feature of yours, how do you explain that?
- [203:14]
Host
If you guys have life 360, how accurate are the backtracking of locations? I'm so curious about that. But also another interesting thing is there is an invisible car. There's so many threads of mysteries. There's the thread of mystery of what time did Colin get there? What time did he leave? There's also a question that netizens have of was Allison McCabe there for a long time? Did she go inside? And everyone is just omitting her name name like they omitted Collins. But now the story is okay, well she picked him up so she definitely couldn't have been inside the house for a long time. Are they all doing this to protect children in the family? That's been a big question. But there is this invisible jeep theory. Birthday. Brian is asked was there anything in between Ryan Nagel's friend's truck and Karen's dark SUV that you saw side he says not to my knowledge. I didn't see anything. No. Only the older people seem to be able to see a jeep with a giant snowplow attached to the front parked right in front of the Mailbox. Ryan Nagel and his friends state that they parked perpendicular to the driveway, right behind the mailbox and they can see Karen's SUV in front of them. They don't see a Jeep with a giant snowplow attached to a It parked right in front of the mailbox. Only the adults see it. Brian Albert, Brian Higgins, Nicole Albert, Jen McCabe and Matt McCabe. All the young people do not see a Jeep.
- [204:45]
Co-Host
Whose Jeep would that be? That's so random.
- [204:48]
Host
Brian Higgins Jeep. Oh, nobody sees the Jeep. What? Julie Nagel walks outside to talk to her brother in the pickup truck that supposedly, according to. To these older Albert McAlberts, right behind the Jeep. She doesn't see a Jeep, but she also doesn't see Karen's car. So I don't know, are they misremembering collectively about a Jeep or is it an intentional lie about the Jeep? And if it is, why are they lying about the Jeep? This Jeep also has a giant snowplow in front of it. It's like an attachment and it just makes it longer. And it's a pretty. It looks like a giant shovel and you can lift it up. It's got lights on it. Some people think that John o' Keefe was actually hit by the snowplow on the Jeep and not Karen's car. I don't know how the physics of that would work, but there are lots of questions of is Brian Higgins the killer? That's what a lot of people think. However, the only thing that doesn't make sense with that theory, if you just don't even count in like forensic evidence, is the fact that the McAlberts are way too involved. And if it was ATF Bryan, someone that is not part of the family family, they would throw him under the bus. So quickly people are commenting. I don't think the McAlberts would be going through all these hoops just for Brian Higgins. Colin was involved some way. Some people think Allison McCabe was there for a lot longer. She was inside the house is what some people are assuming. I don't know. I. I think Colin is very suspicious, feel very sympathetic towards Alison McCabe in the sense sense of if she is not telling the truth, it seems like a lot of people believe she's stuck in a position where if you believe in the conspiracy, she's forced to say these things. A lot of people say there is no way that the McAlberts are going through all of this for Brian Higgins, which means Colin must have been involved in some way, shape or form one netizen says. I think the insistence that it wasn't Colin has been the main factor in convincing everyone that it was cold Colin. So why would it be Colin? Does it have anything to do with the fact that there are allegations, there are conspiracy theories that this part of the Albert family, Chris, Julie and Colin own D and E pizza shop. That might be a drug front. Again, a conspiracy. But it is interesting when you think about the fact that at the Waterfall Bar, Karen kept asking to go to DM instead of 34 Fairview.
- [207:17]
Co-Host
Really? Why?
- [207:19]
Host
She said she wanted to go after hours to make a pizza. Because sometimes they do that. They kept saying no. What's also interesting is that Chris Albert, who was at the waterfall, was the one that invited John o' Keefe out that night.
- [207:33]
Co-Host
Yeah. Which is strange, correct?
- [207:36]
Host
Yes. And you know what's also strange? John o', Keefe, before he went on these, like, night outings.
- [207:43]
Co-Host
Yeah.
- [207:44]
Host
He went with his nephew to DNE pizza that day for lunch.
- [207:49]
Co-Host
That day. That day that he died.
- [207:52]
Host
Yes.
- [207:53]
Co-Host
Huh.
- [207:54]
Host
And he told his superiors and he told members of Canton Police Department that he was. He did notice drug activity in the neighborhood who was also his neighbor.
- [208:09]
Co-Host
Huh.
- [208:10]
Host
And that is the conspiracy that we will be covering in part three, along with the accident Reconstructionist. I try to be very wary of conspiracies. I think that they typically do more harm than good. I think in this case, in this situation, a lot of these conspiracies, I can't even judge. I think had this been any other case, a lot of the far fetched conspiracies, we could probably try to disprove it. Probably even try to say, guys, we should maybe go outside and get some fresh air.
- [208:42]
Co-Host
Yeah. But the law enforcement on this case is like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.
- [208:47]
Host
I think every single witness is not doing themselves a favor. I think conspiracies are born when people act and behave so suspiciously. I think this is also a really strong representation of how a lot of people, People feel about law enforcement officers at this point in time. I mean, there's just no trust between law enforcement officers and the communities these days. And I think this is a direct reflection of that as well. On top of, these guys are just weird.
- [209:13]
Co-Host
Mm.
- [209:14]
Host
What are your thoughts?
- [209:15]
Co-Host
Whoa, my brain is fried. What's going on?
- [209:20]
Host
Where I leave you with part two, we will be back for part three and part four. And if you can believe it, it gets worse. With that being said, stay safe and I will see you in the next one sick of going on dates with the one only to find out later they're really a bum. If you're single and ready to mingle but tired of swiping right on catfish, then you need Truth Finder. Truthfinder confidentially searches millions of public records and gives you background reports with criminal and traffic data, divorce info, age, previous bankruptcies and more. The more you know, the less time you blow on someone who isn't worth your energy. Go to truthfinder.com dating to search now. You're not at your house. You're at a lavish seaside estate. You're not walking to dog. You're hunting for clues in an Agatha Christie mystery. See it differently with Britbox Stream an endlessly entertaining collection of British tv, including new original series Ludwig starring David Mitchell. Bit awkward, really.
- [210:31]
Co-Host
I think I might just have solved a murder and Outrageous A scandalous true story.
- [210:35]
Host
Seems there's a political extremist in every family these days. See it differently when you stream the best of British TV with BritBox.