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Rotten Mango
Woman Gets FB Message From Old College BF After He Killed His Rapist - This Is Her Response
02:02:03
It will be their first time seeing each other in 20+ years. The last time they saw each other was when they broke up after college. Now, so much has changed. He’s gotten out of prison for killing his childhood abuser. She’s started her own business and moved on with her life. Maybe this is a bad idea. Maybe they have nothing in common anymore. Maybe it’s a college fling and they should leave it alone. After all, they never even said a word to each other for 25 years. But when they see each other for the first time in that coffee shop. They’re back to college again. She looks down and notices a briefcase. “Do you bring a briefcase to all your dates?” He chuckles because inside that suitcase is proof. Proof that for the past 20 years he has never stopped thinking about her. Support Clark and his story: "Scarred" by Clark Fredericks https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Scarred/Clark-Fredericks/9781668018651 Full Shownotes: rottenmangopodcast.com
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- [00:00]
A
From the producers of the Tinder Swindler. Jesse sits down to tell his side of the story. A shocking true story of an allegedly fake story that some now say might just be a true story. Featuring interviews with police, lawyers, journalists, investigators who claim to have uncovered new evidence about this case, and with Jussie himself, this compelling documentary invites the audience to decide for themselves who is telling the truth about Jussie Smollett. The Truth About Jussie Smollett launches on August 22nd only on Netflix. Appliances and home systems all tend to break down at some point. But with an American Home Shield warranty, you're covered. When your fridge is on a lifeline and your faucet won't stop leaking, AHS will fix or replace covered parts of your home systems and appliances, no matter how old they are. Not to mention as a benefit with select plans, you can video chat with your live repair experts to help assess or fix the issue on the spot. American Home Shield don't worry, be warranty get 20% off off any plan@ahs.com rotten see ahs.com contracts for coverage details, including service fees, limitations and exclusions. In America, there are approximately these 25 million boxes of secrets. That's basically what they are. The official terminology would be a safety deposit box, but that's not really what it is, right? These are typically hidden away. You walk into a bank vault and you've got hundreds, hundreds of these tiny metal boxes. And yeah, lots of people go there to hide their expensive belongings like their watches, their jewelry, their cash. Like things they don't feel secure keeping in their homes. But a lot of the times people open these up to put away their secrets, they lock them up. A spouse hiding cash from another spouse. Is it for a good reason or not? It's up for debate. But that's their secret box. A family man hiding documents that might include the existence of a second family. That's his box of secrets. Things he cannot let his family find in a shoebox at the bottom of his closet he's putting inside of that safety deposit box. Usually, you never really have the chance to open up someone else's secret box, because that's the whole point. They're secrets. They're jumping through all of these hoops to make sure it stays that way. Unless they're dead. Then this is a whole process depending on what state you live in and your will. But let's say if you die under very suspicious circumstances, like if you're killed in your living room by that little boy that you Assaulted. Only he's not so little anymore, he's a full grown man with a knife. Then, yeah, most likely that safety deposit box is going to be opened under the watchful supervision of authorities and very tense bank employees. In Dennis Pegg's safety deposit box, they find letters, just handwritten letter after letter. I mean, none of these letters are particularly insightful. That's the thing, he doesn't spill all of his secrets or confess anything of any value in any of these letters. But they're so creepy. First of all, he wrote these letters 10 years before he dies while he's a relatively healthy middle aged man. Typically, men of that age are not fair fully estate planning with handwritten letters to everyone they deem special in their lives. And the letters themselves, the content, they all contain variations of the strange phrases. Pray for me if you can. Which if they're reading this letter, he's already dead. Forgive me for my faults. I've forgiven you for all of yours. And something along the lines of, you were always like a special son or little brother to me. It's just letter after letter like that in a safety deposit box. What is the purpose of the letter? Authorities believe that these were most likely written for his victims. Victims who after their abuser is dead, will be delivered handwritten letters asking them to pray for their abuser. In part one, we went over the night of Dennis Pegg's death where Clark, after 33 years of not doing anything about Dennis Pegg, his abuser when he was 12, he decides it's finally time someone puts a stop to Dennis. He goes to Dennis's house. After decades, Dennis sees him holding a hunting knife that ironically, he taught Clark how to shar. And all Dennis says to him is, hey, how are you? Clark slashes at him, slits his throat, stabs him countless times, and then finally spits on his bed before walking out. Clark's mom tries to help him get away with murder, wanting to go on the run with him. But he decides he's gonna stay. And that's when the police come for him. They arrest him. And now he's going to prison, where he will be placed in cells with the same types of people that he hates most. One of them who he's already killed. Child Predators Part 2. We're gonna go over Clark's time in prison, how he survived, all the strange details about what it means. Like when your fellow cellmate keeps flushing his head down the toilet. How Clark is now a free man. And we also go in depth about what happened to his brother, another victim of Dennis Pegg's, who actually ends up being killed by Dennis. And what even happened in those 33 years between Dennis Pegg abusing Clark and Clark killing Dennis for what he's done? Why did in the span of 33 years did the FBI call Clark? Why call Clark? Why did the IRS Criminal Division call Clark? How does he get involved with the mob? Also the fact that Dennis Pegg has likely close to 100 victims, including his own grand nephew, that is all going to be covered in this part. And somehow through all of this, there's this one person that Clark cannot stop thinking about. And it's a woman named Lisa. What role does Lisa play in all of this? This is in part two, the final part of our interview with Clark Fedrix. All of those questions will be answered in this part of the episode. But there so many details and stories that Clark has to share that you can find in his memoir, Scarred, or by following him on his social media accounts, by checking out his podcast. And with that being said, let's get into part two. You've been reached out by the irs, the FBI and Homeland Security.
- [06:11]
B
That's correct.
- [06:12]
A
Were you counting cards?
- [06:13]
B
I studied counting cards, but I found it to get a little distracting. This is going to sound weird.
- [06:20]
A
Okay.
- [06:20]
B
You know, I would go to the casinos and I would walk the casino floor and I would get a vibe for a table. I'd be like, this is the table. And I just get a feeling for it. And I would gamble and I would get a feeling like, all right, it's time to up your bet. And I had an unbelievable like four or five year run in the casinos that was just astronomical. I'm working in the tire automotive field making $700 a week, and I'm down in Atlantic City winning tens of thousands of dollars left and right.
- [07:00]
A
And you're just putting cash in your closet?
- [07:04]
B
In my briefcase, in my closet.
- [07:05]
A
This goes on for how many years?
- [07:08]
B
This was a distraction from my pain.
- [07:10]
A
Yeah.
- [07:10]
B
You know, and it's not like I. It's not like I consciously said I have trauma from being abused as a child. I need to gamble to distract myself. It was just, I'm uncomfortable. I feel uncomfortable. It's my trauma in there making me feel uncomfortable. I feel uncomfortable and I need something to distract me from that uncomfortable feeling. I need pleasure. I became a pleasure seeker. Don't address anything. Don't ever go inside. Let's just seek pleasure our whole life, whether it's drugs, gambling, whatever it may be, seek pleasure. So that's what I was doing with gambling.
- [07:53]
A
Like, what is the most you've lost?
- [07:57]
B
Most? I lost was 75,000.
- [08:00]
A
And do you feel it in that moment? Like, I just lost 75,000.
- [08:02]
B
Oh, yeah, yeah. You can't sleep. It's just acid is a wash in your stomach. But again, the high you get from losing is just. It distracts you from everything, just like the high from winning.
- [08:18]
A
You start by reading books about gambling, and then somehow you end up being very superstitious.
- [08:25]
B
Yeah, I mean, I went down there just on a whim, bored with life, and. And won 1700. Went back 1 20, 200. But I was getting yelled at at the blackjack table because I didn't know what I was doing, but I was still winning. So I'm like, I'm not going to go back until I know what the hell I'm doing. And I would always hear all this screaming at the craps table. It sounded like a blast. So I had no idea what. How to play craps. So I took, like, six months. I got five deck of cards. I read all these books on blackjack. I read books on craps. I would throw dice in my room. I would play all the hands of blackjack. I'd pick which one I am and see how it would affect things, my decisions. And. And I did that for six months until I felt comfortable to go back down. And then just like, boom. You know, like, 17,000, 28,000, 30,000. It just. It just went boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
- [09:28]
A
Is it true that, like, if you win or lose, you could blame it on the fact that you stepped on a crack? Like, is that, like, genuinely what starts happening? Or.
- [09:37]
B
Those little quirks didn't start right away, but as you start winning more and more and more, you start thinking, all right, what. What did I do? Like, all right, I better not step on any cracks. Like, like, I don't even know where it came from. Like, it was just like, boom. Like, all right, what did I do in the days leading up to going to the casino? Like, oh, when I went up the stairs, I. I jumped that second stair and. And then that, you know, like, I skipped two stairs there. So, like, then I would have to go up the stairs a certain way. And then I. I couldn't step on any cracks on pavement. Like, and then, you know, like, where they paint the blue handicapped spots with the wheelchair, I'm like, that's bad luck. Don't ever step on that. And then when I would get to the casino, there was a whole other ritual. Like, for Rolling the dice. It would. I would have to tap it a certain number of times. And in my knee. I would have to hit the table with my knee a certain number of times before I could roll the dice. And it was like. It just started getting more and more and more and more insane.
- [10:49]
A
You start at the casinos, but then you get involved with the mob.
- [10:56]
B
Yeah. You know, another brilliant. You know, a brilliant decision.
- [11:00]
A
Okay, so you get involved with the mob. How much do you owe the mob?
- [11:04]
B
It was because I needed action every day of the week to distract myself from feeling uncomfortable. So, like, I couldn't wait till the weekends to go gamble. I needed something. What am I going to do Monday through Friday?
- [11:18]
A
Yeah.
- [11:19]
B
So it came about that I could. Through a bar, I could start sports betting every day of the week. And I was given a no limit bet. So, like, I could bet as much as I wanted, as often as I wanted. In six months, I was broke, like, lost everything. And. And in that last week, I was down 20,000, and I didn't have it. Now, you would think, all right, it's time to walk away, Clark. But no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm going to get that 20,000 back if I can, plus some. So I. I called the number that I called to place my bets, and I said, hey, I got to move some money around. Can you let me carry that 20,000 over for another week? And they're like, for you, anything. I'm like, okay. So I go into that next week, 20 in the hole, and I'm like, I got to get that 20 back. Plus, I want to keep gambling, so I need. I need to win on top. So I just start making really stupid bets. And when the week ended, I was 77,000 in the hole to the MOP. So when you were gambling in casinos, you were making money? Yeah. How much were you making? Hundreds. I mean, my largest win was 153,000. And that was after losing three times on the craps table, where I had 20 to 30,000 at a clip up there. So I was well over a quarter million just for that one time. But, I mean, 50,000, 70,000. My host put me into a blackjack tournament for 75,000, winner take all. And he's like, I think you got this, bro. Your luck is unbelievable. I didn't win. I got knocked out about halfway through it. But I went to a high stakes blackjack table, and I won 80,000. So, like, I won more than what the prize was.
- [13:32]
A
So then you were like, okay, I'm gonna do this with the mob. And then you're down 77,000, and now the mob is trying to kill you.
- [13:41]
B
The mob is threatening me, threatening my life. The mob is telling me the best thing I could do for myself is to go rob a bank. The guy's like, look, if you get caught, you're looking at five to 10 years. You'd be a hell of a lot better off doing five to 10 years than what we're going to do to you. And they're calling me every day, and this was like, a constant, dude, you got to go rob a bank. Like, what are you waiting on? Go rob a bank. Maybe you'll get away with it. You can give us money and hold this off. You get caught, you go do five, 10 years. What's the big deal? You know, that was what they were constantly on.
- [14:18]
A
Did you ever consider robbing a bank?
- [14:20]
B
No.
- [14:21]
A
Oh.
- [14:22]
B
And then they started. They called my family. They got my father's phone number, and they said, hey, old man, you want to save your son's life, you better pony up some money for him. I had already gone to my family to warn them, and sure enough, they called my father. Then they called my brother, who I used to be in business with. And they're like, your brother's in a lot of trouble. You have the power to save your brother's life. You can do that by paying us what he owes us. And I had told everybody to tell them, like, this is Clark's responsibility. He'll handle it with you. And that's what they both said. But they. It scared everybody to death.
- [15:13]
A
Were you not scared?
- [15:14]
B
Oh, yeah. It was the worst time in my life.
- [15:16]
A
Okay.
- [15:17]
B
It was horrible. I had a shotgun in my truck, loaded, that I drove around with. I had a baseball bat in my office. I was constantly on edge, like, just to leave the house in the morning. I got to go to all the windows of the house and look out in the yard behind the shed, see if anybody's out there. You know, the same thing. Leaving my office. Like, I've got to, like, survey every. I was just hyper vigilant. That's what they call it. And I was hyper vigilant to the max.
- [15:53]
A
So the mob is as scary as they're depicted in movies and books. Like, they're intense.
- [15:59]
B
Yeah, it was. It was just angry, threatening phone calls almost on a daily basis. And I wasn't trying to, like, get out of. I wasn't trying to weasel out. But I told them the only way I could make good on this is to set Up a payment plan. And what I really could afford was $500 a month at the time, because I had, you know, I had a lot of debts to casinos. You know, like, casinos would all let me have, you know, markers, $20,000 markers in them all. So I had all these markers I owed, and credit cards were maxed out. So, like, I'm trying to juggle everybody. So I. I told the guy, you know, like, I can do 500amonth. And the guide went absolutely bananas. And he's like, $500 a month doesn't even cover the juice on $77,000. Like, you're out of your mind, bro. So it was. It was. It was a horrible time. And then. And then I get a phone call after months of this, and it's them. And they don't ask for money. They just say, you're a dead man, and click and hang up. And then a couple months goes by after that where I'm completely, like, on edge. Like, can't sleep. You know, you're always listening for every little sound, like, is that somebody out there? And I get a call. At this point in time, we had two tire automotive centers. I had one and my brother had one. And I happened to be at my brother's store one day, and his office manager came in the back room and said, hey, there's a phone call for you. I'm like, who the hell's calling me over here? Nobody knows I'm here. He goes, I don't know. They asked for Clark. So I answered a phone, and the guy introduces himself as a special agent with the FBI. I need to meet you at your Newton location. The store I had on Thursday at 3 o'. Clock. And I'm like. I'm like, whoa, bro. Like, you got to tell me what this is about. He's like, no, I don't. He goes, I'll see you Thursday at 3:00'. Clock. And he hangs up. And then your mind just goes, like, in a million directions, you know, Like, I couldn't fathom what the FBI is coming to meet me for, you know, Like, I was doing some now and then, and I'm like, is the FBI gonna try to. Try to pinch my dealer by. By. By put. Pressuring me like, I'm fine a Grandma. Like, the FBI's getting involved on a grandma. So I had no idea what it was. And then they came. The guy came to the store and clearly was an FBI guy and said they had an informant inside one of the major crime families who told them a hit had been put out on my life for my gambling debt. And if I didn't think it was real before then that really, that really made everything real.
- [19:21]
A
But you still didn't snitch. You didn't cooperate with the FBI.
- [19:26]
B
You're like, well, no, they wanted me to wear a wire. And I was like, are you out of your mind? Like, my life is hell right now. You want me to wear a wire and make it even worse? I go. And I told the FBI guy what I told the mob guy. I go, this is my problem and I'm not running from it and I'm gonna deal with it. And the guy, the FBI guy said, well, that's very noble of you, but if things get too heavy for you, here's my card. You can call me. Wait, what did the FBI guy offer to. At first he said, wear a wire and we will help you. Or, yeah, yeah. It's not like, yeah, like, we'll solve your problem by taking these guys down. And I'm like, no, this is my problem and I'm not going to compound it by wearing a wire. Wow. Is it because that you scare that.
- [20:15]
A
Wearing a wire is more dangerous than.
- [20:18]
B
That's just not the type of person I was, you know, like, it's not. It wasn't in my DNA to become a little weasel snitch wearing a wire. Like, interesting. Like, no, it's not. Wow.
- [20:32]
A
It's all in the book. But yeah, if you, because I know the FBI, Homeland Security and IRS Criminal division reach out, if you had to rank them in intensity, who was the scariest agency? It's a lot of experience.
- [20:48]
B
That division of Homeland Security I'd say is at the bottom.
- [20:51]
A
Yeah, that makes sense.
- [20:56]
B
The IRS did a full audit on me. They thought I was money laundering because I was putting in all this cash from the gambling winnings into my bank account. That was a nightmare doing.
- [21:05]
A
You didn't just tell them you're that good? They're like, no, we don't.
- [21:09]
B
Well, that's, you know, that's what I, you know, I eventually got to that point with them, you know, but there's laws for trying to skirt the $10,000 notification rule. You know, dummy me. Like somebody said, oh, if you put in under $10,000 deposit, it doesn't get getting. Get recorded or notified. So I'm like, oh, cool. So 9800-9700-9600-9700, 9800-9200-9400-9800, like non stop. And then that sets off all the red flags. And so, yeah, that was a nightmare too.
- [21:46]
A
So IRS or FBI, who's scarier?
- [21:49]
B
I think when you're told that it's been put out on your life in a confidential informant, that's the top of the list.
- [21:55]
A
Yeah, that's like in your 30s. But it does seem like after everything that Dennis did, there were some signs in your childhood where a lot of psychiatrists later say it seemed like you're crying for help, like trying to get help in a way. Playing with fire. Is that one of them?
- [22:18]
B
Yeah, I was a little. I became a little fire bug.
- [22:21]
A
What is it about fire? Because I, I see that a lot in a lot of cases.
- [22:25]
B
Yeah, I think it has to do with control and it's an outlet for anger from what happened.
- [22:37]
A
So you're just like lighting matches? Are you lighting things on fire?
- [22:41]
B
Yeah, I lit our house or we had this screened in patio bar area out back, and I let the corner of that on fire and like I happened to show up that we're going to be painting the house and like the screened in porch things on fire. Like it had been smoldering overnight and caught on fire when they got there. And we had a huge backyard and raked the leaves into a pile where the swing set was, and you'd swing off into the leaves. Well, I just took a can of gas all over the leaves and set it on fire. And this big fire exploded.
- [23:22]
A
These are big fires. Okay.
- [23:26]
B
So. Yeah, and then, and then another. Another sign of abuse is shoplifting. And I got caught shoplifting. And it's the same thing. It's. It's an outlet for anger and pain. It's a control issue. You know, you're, you're. Yeah, so those were signs. And, and, and I started smoking pot, like right after the abuse. You know, 12 years old, started smoking pot, drank heavily in high school, got suspended for coming in drunk, got caught on a class trip to the Jersey Shore, drinking on a bench with two other buddies. And the chaperone teachers come up behind us and like, seriously, Seriously, guys, my principal threatened me that I wouldn't graduate to class if at the prom he even had the hint of alcohol on my breath.
- [24:29]
A
Did you ever feel frustrated that these teachers are saying these things to you, but they don't recognize what is underlying underneath that behavior? Was there any sort of frustration or anger towards them?
- [24:43]
B
No, no, I'm, I'm. You know, there was. There was a thing with the essay I wrote, which is unbelievable. I would, I would hope that times have Changed. And, you know, your audience, you know, in the book, they'll. They'll see this essay I wrote and I. I put a lot of stuff in there in this essay that was. It just screams, I've been abused. You know, like, I need help and I've been abused. And the teacher gave me an a and said, use more paragraphs next time. So, like, if you see a sudden change in behavior in a younger person, there's a reason why, you know, like shoplifting, fire weed, drinking, getting suspended, getting detentions, getting caught in class trips, getting threatened by the principal, like writing this essay that screamed I need help. And I don't know if it was a sign of the times, but it was all right there. And, you know, nobody picked up on it.
- [26:05]
A
What's interesting about your case is that because I know there's a lot of cases where maybe victims, family and parents are not as involved in their lives and they might be missing a lot of the larger signs. But it seems like your dad was picking up on these signs and he asked you multiple times.
- [26:23]
B
Yeah.
- [26:25]
A
And you never told him what happened.
- [26:28]
B
And that really, like, you know, I've been asked, you know, if I have regrets in life, you know, like, do I regret owing 77,000 to the mob? Do I regret doing drugs? Do I regret, you know, like, really the only. And it's tough to have this regret, but I do have this regret, you know, like being a young boy and lying to my father when he asked me if Dennis Pegg ever touched me. And I just couldn't. The shame is. The shame is there and the pain is there. And my parents viewed me as the golden child for surviving this operation. And I just didn't want to become now the abused son who's tortured inside mentally, you know, So I just told my dad no, he never touched me.
- [27:17]
A
Around the time that your dad starts asking you if Dennis Pegg ever touched you, there was. There were some other kids that were talking about it.
- [27:26]
B
Yeah, that's how it came out.
- [27:27]
A
And nothing happened.
- [27:29]
B
All right, now, now just picture this. You have a 260 pound, hulking lieutenant at the jail who's waiting out in the parking lot for young male inmates to get released so he can take them home to his house to mentor them. I'm a mentor. I'm going to give you a safe environment. You come live with me. Will get you back on your feet in the middle of the night. He would pounce on these young male inmates. Some ran away, some didn't. Some probably froze like I froze but they would. The ones that ran away in the middle of the night and still work night still were just like a little, tiny rural town. And they would hitchhike, and when they would get picked up, they would tell the people, like, I just got out of jail, and this guy told me he would give me a safe place to stay, to get my feet back on the ground. And in the middle of night, he's in my bed trying to do stuff with me. And it spread like wildfire around Stillwater. And that's where my father sat me down. Said, did Dennis ever touch you? The first time he sat me down was probably a. A year after the. So I was probably 13. The second time was when a waitress in a donut shop told my father over a cup of coffee that her son, who was a classmate of mine, same grade, from Stillwater in the Boy Scouts, had been by Dennis. And my father came home after she said that, and he. This time, he said, before you answer me, I just want you to know you'll never have to go to the cops. You'll never have to testify in court. I'll take care of Dennis myself. Did he ever touch you? So is my father saying, kill Dennis? That's how I took it. And that's way too much weight to put your teenage son under. Like, as tempting as it was, like, I. I was tortured over that for a long time. Like, man, do I tell him? Do I tell him? Do I tell him I want Dennis dead? Yeah. Dad could kill him. Dad could kill him. But then what if it goes wrong? What if dad gets killed in the. In the attack? Then it's my fault for telling him. What if dad goes to prison for the rest of his life and I'm without a father? That's on me because I told him. So now I can't tell him. No, I can't. And I didn't tell him.
- [30:24]
A
Do you think your dad would have?
- [30:27]
B
Yeah, because there's something later on the book my dad told me on his deathbed, and I just confirmed that he would have done it.
- [30:40]
A
How do you feel that it was you that killed Dennis rather than your dad?
- [30:49]
B
Yeah. Nobody's ever asked me that. I. I feel better that it was me instead of my dad, because sending somebody else to do your work, to, like, look, if I did it, and I was either on a suicide mission, I was either going to commit suicide after, or I was going to do life in prison, that's on me. I don't want to be responsible for sending somebody else to do Life in prison, to get mortally wounded maybe, or to commit suicide after they do it. I don't want that. That on my shoulders.
- [31:40]
A
It seems by all accounts you were a very smart kid and you end up at Northeastern.
- [31:46]
B
Yeah, and I never applied myself in high school. Like after the abuse, I just every. Everything was lacking, you know, another sign, you know, But I was really smart and I could do no work, get bcs. Somehow I got into Northeastern. They weren't as strict back then as they are now. Like now it's like uber tough to get in, you know, But I got in and became a excellent student. I graduated, graduated cum laude.
- [32:15]
A
And there is someone that you meet at Northeastern that's featured in your book?
- [32:21]
B
Yeah, yeah, I. You know, Dennis Pegg did a lot of things that derailed a lot in my life. And one of the things he derailed was me being able to be intimate with a partner. And by intimate I mean like open. You know, like is one thing. Intimacy is a completely different thing. And I met this girl, Lisa, and she was so bubbly and outgoing and she approached me, I was just studying by myself and she came over and plopped down and just. She was a whirlwind in my life. And she saw signs though, even back then. Like she would say to me, we would be laying together in bed and I would, I would have like soldiers come back from war and have a thousand mile stare. I had that stare. And she'd be like, hello, hello. And she'd be like, like in front of my face and I'm still just like. Like I wouldn't even acknowledge it. And then she'd hit me and I'd be like, what? She's like, where are you in your mind right now? Like, you are not present with me. I'm like, I have no idea what you're talking about. You know, like played it off that she was nuts. You know, the, the trauma of this abuse was still really fresh and raw. And I would get lost in thought about it and we had an amazing connection, amazing love between us. I could tell her I loved her and I did. We had passion and we dated for six years and she was ready to like start our lives together, get married, careers, family, whatever it would entail. And I couldn't do that.
- [34:36]
A
Like, did you ever think about telling her or.
- [34:40]
B
No.
- [34:41]
A
Why?
- [34:42]
B
For a similar reason to my parents. I didn't want to go from the cool, see, party animal, fun loving boyfriend to the wounded, broken wing duckling.
- [35:05]
A
So you guys break up?
- [35:09]
B
We break up.
- [35:11]
A
Do you feel like she was. I mean, do you believe in soulmates? Is that a crazy question to ask someone your age or is that.
- [35:20]
B
Yeah, I do.
- [35:22]
A
Do you think that she was yours?
- [35:23]
B
Eh.
- [35:24]
A
How long after college do you guys break up?
- [35:29]
B
I was a year ahead of her, so I graduated, and then she graduated a year behind. And then like, another year after that is when she's like, you know, what are we doing here? You know, I was. I was just jerking her around at that time, and she's like, you know, you. She was living in the city. I was living in Jersey. I would go in for a weekend. We'd have an amazing time. But then I disappear for a month or two and then show back up, have an amazing time, disappear again. And she's like, every time you disappear, you're breaking my heart. Like, what are you doing? And I just. She's like, are we gonna get our act together and get going on life together or not? And I go, I can't do that. Like, everything is subconscious with it, with abuse. It was just like, the thought of getting married. Being tied down scares me to death. It makes me feel really uncomfortable because being tied down and scared to death is how I was in that guy's house. And I'm feeling trapped, and I felt trapped in that house. So just that trapped feeling. I can't feel trapped. I don't want to feel trapped. Don't make me feel trapped. I'm going to run if you make me feel trapped. You're making me feel trapped. I got to go. Sorry. And that's how it was. And that's how it was with careers, you know, like, in my 20s, it was like two to three years in a career, and that was it. Like, I'm. I'm getting really uncomfortable feeling. I'm feeling trapped. I'm feeling like. Like just a lot of pressure and just feeling like I'm just, like, getting pushed down into the ground. I gotta run. I gotta go. I was a prey caught in his snare. He had me trapped for years, and I just never wanted to feel that feeling again.
- [37:47]
A
Just an interesting observation. You don't have to comment, but it's interesting because you feel that way with relationships and careers. But in your book, you don't use this terminology for your careers, but you do with Lisa. You have this tendency to write post Lisa when describing certain events that happen after the breakup. It's very interesting.
- [38:12]
B
Back in college, myself and my two roommates and Lisa and her two roommates, we all dated, so the six of us were always together. Two of the couples didn't make it, Lisa and I being one. But one of the couples did.
- [38:30]
A
They got married after college. You guys break up, you're in. The FBI's calling you. The mob is after you. Everything is kind of everywhere. And then you kill Dennis Pegg.
- [38:43]
B
Yeah.
- [38:45]
A
Like, in your darkest time, you never thought, like, maybe I should reach out.
- [38:49]
B
To her constantly over the decades? Constantly.
- [38:54]
A
What stopped you?
- [38:56]
B
Just the way I was living, the shape I was in, the shape my life was in. Like, I had so many grandiose fantasies about finding Lisa and sweeping her off her feet and. And riding off into the sunset and. But I've got the mob wanting to kill me. Like, I'm really going to bring her into that. I'm going to go find her, sweep her off her feet, right off into the sunset. But I'm addicted to drugs and alcohol. Really. I'm going to bring her into that.
- [39:33]
A
So you don't.
- [39:34]
B
So there was never a good time. I talked myself out of it. I would talk myself into it, and then I talk myself out of it.
- [39:42]
A
So you don't not reach out because of you. You don't not reach out for her. Like, you don't want to bring her into these things.
- [39:50]
B
So, yeah, like, I don't want to hurt her all over again. Like, I knew. I heard her back in the day, and I cared so much for her. I didn't want to do that again. Like, my life. My life from the abuse to the murder, it was. It was tumultuous to say the least. Like, I was. I was off wandering in the desert for 30 years, like, just going down one bad path after another, and I couldn't bring her into that.
- [40:20]
A
So now you're in jail, you're facing life in prison after the killing, you're withdrawing from drugs, you have a hole in your hand. I mean, what are your options to plead insanity? Like, do you have any options at this point? What's going on in your mind the first night in jail?
- [40:38]
B
Well, they put me in the suicide cell.
- [40:41]
C
Yeah.
- [40:42]
B
Which is exactly where I needed to be.
- [40:43]
A
Do the lights turn off in there?
- [40:45]
B
No.
- [40:46]
A
I feel like that makes things worse. No. Okay.
- [40:50]
B
You know, the camera's in there, and, you know it's on you, and, yeah, it was hell.
- [41:01]
A
I think what's interesting is I was reading through all of, like, the psychiatric reports that were done when you were in jail. Did you feel like a lab rat? It seems like there's so much debate about your state of mind. Do you feel like you're Just being poked and prodded at and.
- [41:17]
B
Yeah, like, those psych exams were like, nerve wracking, you know, it was, you know, because you. Some of the stuff they had you do, it's just, you know, they would.
- [41:26]
A
Show you pictures and try to get you to describe the scenario, the scene.
- [41:32]
B
Yeah. It's very interesting, you know, and then like, I had to do the. The Rorschach test. The ink blots.
- [41:40]
A
Yeah.
- [41:40]
B
Like, and you got to come up with what it looks like. And it's just, oh, my God. And I thought, like, one wrong answer. Like, they would, like, he cannot get out for the rest of his life. Boom. You know, like, I just thought, like, how. And the pressure you put yourself under to try to answer things right, that just makes it worse because then you get. You're like. And like. And like 500 multiple choice tests. Like, boom. Yeah, take this 500 multiple choice test. Like, and they ask you the same question in that multiple choice test four different ways, seeing if you, like, they'll reword it. But it's the same question to see if you answer differently.
- [42:26]
A
You know, it seems like you are honest. I don't know. This is one. So you were shown a picture that is not provided, but you say that it appears to be a man who's pulling away. She's trying to hold him and talk to him. Maybe he drinks too much and has anger problems. So it feels like you took these tests very seriously. Like, it doesn't seem like you were trying to answer how they wanted.
- [42:53]
B
Almost. Almost feels like I'm talking about Lisa and I. Yeah.
- [42:59]
A
When you get to prison, eventually you have to carry around a file so that if someone accuses you of being a pedophile, prisoners will show their file. Were there a lot of pedophiles getting beaten up in prison?
- [43:15]
B
There's a lot of fights, but it wasn't necessarily the pedophiles getting beaten up. Believe it or not, the prison likes the pedophiles because they're the snitches. Like, they use them.
- [43:31]
A
That's so interesting to.
- [43:32]
B
To be snitches. So, like, they, you know, like, they hate what they did, but they use that against them to get info out of them. So on the unit I was on, I was told by my therapist that two out of three. I was told one out of three. Closer to two out of three guys on my unit was there for a crime, mostly involving children. I was like, are you kidding me? And I'm like, oh, yai, yai. And I. And then you Know, I was told, you know, one of the guards told me, like, oh, yeah, they're our snitches for us, you know, like, they give us all the dirt on guys.
- [44:23]
A
If you hear about a pedophile that gets beaten up in jail, did you feel anything where you're just like, well.
- [44:30]
B
In the county jail, the tier I was on was not supposed to have any. And yet somehow I was told by. By paperwork getting mixed up. They kept putting pedophiles on my tier in the county jail. And the guards in the county jail hated the pedophiles. The pedophiles in prison, they use them in the county jail, they hated them. And they would come up to me and be like, a guy just came on, he's a kitty toucher. So, like, they would be like, egging me on to, like, do something.
- [45:13]
A
But that would have made your life exponentially harder as well.
- [45:20]
B
Yeah. And I, I was cognizant of, like, what will that look like? To go to trial, to go to sentencing? And all I've been doing my whole time here is beating up pedophiles. Like, yeah, how. How could they possibly release me? But I would tell them myself and another guy would go sit down with them. And I did this a couple times early on, and then I just let two other guys, and we would just say, look, man, we got word that you're a kitty toucher. You know what they call them in there? I don't even know if I put it in the book. I don't think so. Tree jumper.
- [46:07]
A
Why?
- [46:09]
B
Think, Think of the. The guy with an overcoat on, hiding behind a tree, and then a little kid walks by and they jump out and open their overcoat. Tree jumper. So, like, that's what they're called here. Like out, out west in California, they call them chomos. Child molester chomos, they call them. But here, here in Jersey, New York, they're tree jumpers. And so, you know, the guards would either say, kitty toucher. That's a tree jumper. And we would just be like, sit down with them at a table and be like, look, bro, we're told you're a tree jumper, and you gotta go, you gotta hit the button. You could go over, there's a button by the door, and you press the button and the guards would be like, what do you want? And you say, I want to check in. Means protective custody.
- [47:03]
A
Oh.
- [47:06]
B
So I did that a couple times. I'm like, look, if we're wrong, I apologize, but it's not safe for you to stay Here, because that's the word now. And somebody's gonna come after you. And. And they'd be like. You know, they'd be like, it's not me, man. I'm not here for that. I'm not here for that. And we'd get up and be like, sorry, bro. And we'd walk away. And within a minute, they'd go over to the button and be like, I need protective custody.
- [47:35]
A
So you never wanted to maybe punch one?
- [47:42]
B
No, no. Like, I just thought, like, I wasn't there. Like, if. And I've said this, like, if I got a life sentence, then all bets were off, right? But I wasn't. And my therapist told me about how many were on my unit because she didn't want me to do anything stupid. She goes, don't tell the guys on your unit what you're here for. Yeah. Because it's called putting a battery pack on your back and amping you up. So she like, if. If. If the guys know what you're here for, they're going to put a battery pack on your back and try to get you amped up to go do something stupid. I go, nobody's going to make me do anything I don't want to do. I go, they're not putting any battery pack on my. I go, and. And in the psych exam, you know, they asked me that, like, how do we know you're. You're not a risk to harm other people? And I'm like, unless you were the person who abused me, I'm. Now, I'm not out to avenge every pedophile out there. I go, just the one that abused me.
- [48:46]
A
So what was worse, the mice or the cockroaches?
- [48:51]
B
Oof. Well, I was on the top bunk, so I didn't have to necessarily deal with the mice. To me, the cockroaches were worse because they would, like, fall on you. And while you're trying to sleep.
- [49:06]
A
Wow.
- [49:07]
B
Do you want to lay down tonight and have a cockroach fall on you? You scream and you. Like, that was in a place called Craft C R A, F. And that's when you leave the county jail to go to prison. You have to go to this place to get classified. Which prison suits you best? And it's. They. They purposely have it as a hellhole to, like, frighten you from never wanting to come back into the prison system. And the guards are frightening, and the mice are frightening, and the cockroaches are frightening, and everything's disgusting. And just, like, you don't want to Go back to craft. Craft was hell.
- [49:50]
A
I mean, how, how is prison in general? But, like, how bad is bad? I mean, I see people are flushing their heads in toilets for drugs, for smoking marijuana.
- [50:01]
B
Well, those toilet, those toilets are like the airplane toilets. You know, it's just like sucks. So if you want to smoke weed, you put your head in your toilet and blow it and hit the button. You can all. You know, you can always tell somebody who's smoking weed in yourself because the button goes. You just hear the suction sound going and going and going and going and going.
- [50:20]
A
So guards are just walking by and they just see cellmates with their heads in the toilet.
- [50:24]
B
Well, there's usually only one guard on at a time. There's a guard on, on the floor and then there's, you know, like two guards in a bubble. And they, they have to do, they have to do a walk through like every so often. So you know when, when they just did their walk through, like, all right, I got, I got two hours now or whatever it is and, or an hour till they do another one. So you can smoke your weed then.
- [50:58]
A
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- [52:45]
A
You wrote a good chunk of your book in prison, but you used a prison pen. Can you describe what a prison pen is?
- [52:53]
B
How they call them security pens.
- [52:56]
A
Okay.
- [52:56]
B
And they're. They're these flexible plastic tubes with a little thing of ink in them. It's just, you know, so you can't stab somebody with it. You know, like the there. Everything in a prison is, can they make a weapon out of this?
- [53:11]
A
Are there lots of weapons being made?
- [53:13]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [53:14]
A
Okay.
- [53:15]
B
Like, I mean, one of the main things they liked where I was at was the. The tiles in the shower were coming out, so you could, like, pop a tile off and then carve it down into a point, you know, but most. I didn't see any stabbings. It was just fights. It was fist fights.
- [53:40]
A
Were you ever involved in any?
- [53:42]
B
No. No.
- [53:43]
A
That's so interesting how you were able to keep to yourself pretty well.
- [53:47]
B
Yeah, I didn't have any fights in the county jail, and I had. I had one incident in prison. We lined up for the shower, and this big guy, and he was not mentally all there, so which you always have to be cognizant of, he went around everybody to the front of the line, and everybody started moaning. And for whatever reason, they looked at me like, say something. So I go up to him and I'm like, hey, bro, we're all waiting in line. You gotta. You gotta wait at the end of the line. I'm next. I go, come on, man. We're all being cool. You know, you can't. You can't just cut the line. I'm next. So now do I want to fight and go to the hole over this guy getting in front of the shower? So I just said, whatever, bro. You know, like, it wasn't. Wasn't worth me getting into a fight or going to the hole over a guy cutting in line of the shower who has clearly some form of mental illness.
- [55:00]
A
How bad is the hole? What? Have you been to the hole? Never been in the hole, no. You've heard of the hole?
- [55:06]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [55:08]
A
Does it seem bad?
- [55:10]
B
Uh, yeah, yeah, that was a dumb question.
- [55:15]
A
Yeah, that was fair.
- [55:16]
B
Like, I mean, I was in A suicide cell for four weeks. That's bad, really? That's like the whole. You get nothing. You get no book. You know, you get. You can't get commissary. It's just misery. You don't get out. How long did it actually feel to you? The. The suicide one? The four weeks? Yeah, that was. That was long. Because the suicide cell was right next to the intake, so people would be coming in, like, drugged, out off the wall, loud screaming, wanting to fight the guards. There was women that were wanting to fight the guards, spitting on them. Always commotion. There's other side cells there, so you got guys screaming all hours of the night. It's cold. It's freezing. At times it was. It was just miserable.
- [56:17]
A
So it did not make you less suicidal. It made you more. Okay.
- [56:21]
B
No, suicide sells, though. But, you know, but it's. It's very tough to kill yourself in there. So I was in the right spot, as miserable. Miserable as it was, because early on, that's all I could think about.
- [56:36]
A
While you're there, waiting to figure out what happens. I mean, there's a lot of discourse on whether or not your charge should be dropped to manslaughter. There's a lot of back and forth with the prosecution. But one of the main things that keeps happening is more victims come forward. I mean, is that kind of a weird feeling? Because on one hand, you're happy your legal case is getting stronger, but on the other hand, like, it must be very depressing to know that there's more, like, more people, more trauma? Or did you feel, in a sense, like maybe we can, in a sense, get through it together? Maybe this is some closure for people. What was that feeling like?
- [57:17]
B
Yeah, well, I mean, early on, as a kid, you think you're alone. You think you're the only one? Later on, my lawyers, like, between the state police, the prosecutor's office, my office, we're taking so many calls about victims, you know, he even said at times it's hard to keep up with. You know, that it hurts, but it also helps your case, you know, like, it corroborates what you did wasn't just being, you know, drunk, looking for a thrill kill, you know, like some. Some idiot said. Yeah, it's. It's. It's tough to, like, know that you need other people's pain to come forward to help you, you know, but hopefully it would help them to, like, speak out, because that's the only way you can heal, is to speak out.
- [58:19]
A
You said, like, some idiot said, I had the article oh, boy. Okay. I'm gonna read snippets of this article, but I do have questions later because.
- [58:31]
B
And I don't know if we should use his name. I don't even want to give him.
- [58:35]
A
He's deceased.
- [58:39]
B
Who? The guy who wrote that?
- [58:41]
A
Yeah. Ernest is dead.
- [58:42]
B
Really?
- [58:43]
A
Yeah. I know. We did share a little chuckle over that one. Yeah.
- [58:48]
B
Okay, read away. Yeah. Wow. That's unbelievable. I'm not supposed to mourn, am I? Wow, you just blew me away with that.
- [58:57]
C
Holy smokes.
- [58:58]
B
You guys really did your work.
- [59:01]
A
His article is crazy. That. Yeah. And it's. It's a very intense article. And did you. I mean, I'm curious to know if you read it while you were in jail, but it reads, Dennis Pegg was the kindest, most considerate and gentlest man to ever have graced the earth.
- [59:23]
B
I did read it.
- [59:23]
A
You did read it?
- [59:24]
B
Yeah. You get the papers in there? And I didn't read it at the time because I was in when it was written, but it was mailed in to me, and I read.
- [59:41]
A
Is disgusting that certain low lives only now are coming out from under a rock to besmirch the stellar reputation of a man who can no longer defend himself.
- [59:53]
B
So a victim is a low life.
- [59:55]
A
Did you have any sort of. Like, what was your reaction when you're reading these words? I know it wasn't right away, but.
- [60:02]
B
It hurt like to be to see.
- [60:09]
A
Someone.
- [60:11]
B
Speak so highly about a predator like you had everybody heard rumors. This guy had to hear rumors, too. But to discount that and build this guy up as something he wasn't. You can't little boys and do something good and just people focus on the good. No, it your little boys.
- [60:41]
A
Yeah.
- [60:41]
B
Like any good you do is out the window. And yet Ernest wanted to just focus on the good. Wait, did we talk about who wrote this article?
- [60:50]
A
Yes. His name is Ernest, and he was very friendly with Dennis Pegg, Very close friends, and also his attorney. He also owed Dennis Pegg $12,000. I mean, the things you can find on the Internet are very strange. I don't know, but he. He is since deceased. But I just. I just find it, like, unthinkable, because even if I had a friend, but all these victims are coming for it. There's no way that you can write these types of words. It just doesn't make sense to me.
- [61:25]
B
Yeah, I mean. I mean, he had to know the rumors. And yet you're gonna call me a low life coming out from under a rock, and you're gonna build Dennis Pegg up as this pillar of society. Like, I don't know how you do that. I don't know how Ernest lived with himself after writing that article.
- [61:49]
A
Most people, they support you, but are there more Ernest out there? Like, do you see people writing stuff like this about you? Have people said things like this to you?
- [62:04]
B
No, just the Internet trolls. Like, when I'll do something, you can't get away from them. Maybe you don't have them, but there's an escape. But I'll. I'll get a. You know, just. And. And I don't know what joy they get out of it. Like, because. Because when I. When I do any type of interview, I put my heart and soul in it. Everything can be corroborated. I'm not lying about anything.
- [62:31]
A
People think you're lying.
- [62:33]
C
Yeah.
- [62:33]
B
Oh, yeah, yeah. Like, this, this story is bs. Like, what is bs? It's Google my name. Like, I had it.
- [62:40]
A
Like.
- [62:41]
B
And early on, I would try to interact with the Internet trolls just to be like, like. And then you. They, they vanish. You don't hear from them. So I just gave up trying to, like, why bother? But, yeah, as far as, like, yes, people in my community, no, I don't. I don't hear anything from, like, what Ernest wrote back then. I don't. I don't see that.
- [63:09]
A
But it's. I mean, okay, I looked up Dennis Pegg's obituary.
- [63:14]
B
Ugh. Isn't that horrific?
- [63:16]
A
Yeah. And I. I thought surely it's gonna be a five sentence ordeal where maybe the family is like, okay, he's gone. We're in mourning. He's survived by these people. It's like one and a half, two pages. It's talking about his time in the boy Scouts extensively. Has anyone in his family reached out to apologize? Has. Have they. Have they said anything to you?
- [63:43]
B
No, I've been asked that, like, because people are like, did anybody in the family ever say, I'm sorry, you know, for what happened to you, by our brother, by our uncle, by whoever? And no, nobody ever reached out. And they were all interviewed by the prosecutor, and not one person made mention of Dennis having a traumatic childhood. It's a falsehood that those abused become abusers. I had a therapist who worked in a diagnostic center for pedophiles. She said 100% coming in the door said, I was abused as a child. They would give them all lie detector tests. 75% failed when asked, were you abused as a child? So, like, they all. They all use that to try to garner sympathy for their actions instead of just like saying, I'm evil and I do evil things.
- [64:51]
A
And so none of his family will really acknowledge it. But wasn't his nephew a victim?
- [64:57]
B
Yeah, yeah, his great nephew committed suicide after I was arrested, and he shot himself. And everybody I know, and I know people really close to him said what a wonderful kid he was, and yet he took his life after my arrest. And they found actual images on Dennis's computer of the nephew. Do you believe that has your arrest like, trigger something? Yeah, I mean, just like it opened my brother's Pandora's box, It probably opened Dylan's print Pandora's box as well.
- [65:44]
A
Ernest writes in the article, that is the definition of a coward, that you guys are only coming out now that Dennis is dead. That's what they all are, cowards, plain and simple. Do you feel like what you did was cowardly in any way?
- [65:59]
B
No, no. I went there, like I said, basically on a suicide mission. I was ready to give my life that night. You know, like, he should have had a handgun, 10 different spots in that house, and as soon as I opened that front door, I should have been shot dead.
- [66:17]
A
It's interesting because a lot of people say that the worst thing you can do to another person is take away their life. But is that really true? Because it almost makes it seem like then what you did is worse than his crime.
- [66:36]
B
Yeah, I mean, I've had people say, you know, like, you murdered. And I'm like, yeah, I did. And that's why I'm in the position I am to advise every other victim to not follow my path. I did things wrong. I. I led a self destructive life. I should have healed early on. I should have talked about this early on. And that's one of the main reasons for me being here on your program is because you have a younger demographic, I feel, and that's the age I want to reach. So people can hear from me that what I did didn't heal me. It just created more problems, more trauma. I was ready to kill myself. I was ready to do life in prison. And you don't have to forfeit your life because you were abused. You know, you can heal from it. And I'm healing now and I want people to see that and I want them to. To follow my footsteps now versus how I lived earlier.
- [67:46]
A
But do you feel like Dennis also killed something in all of his victims?
- [67:51]
B
Oh, of course. I had a. A former lieutenant of police department who is a professor at Seton hall, and he equated childhood abuse to soul murder. You murder the soul of that child. And I agreed with him a thousand percent on that.
- [68:15]
A
There is this interesting moment where. Okay, well, first of all, your murder charge, first degree murder charge is brought down to manslaughter. So at some point the prosecution, they come around.
- [68:29]
B
It took three years. I had, I had that first degree murder hanging over my head for three years in the county jail. There is no such thing as a speedy trial when it comes to a murder. And our psych eval from our side got delayed and it got presented to the prosecutor just before that three, you know, like a couple months before the three year mark. And in that psych evaluation is everything laid out like the abuse, the murder, it's not like a whodunit anymore. And between all the victims that came forward and then reading that psych evaluation, they, the prosecutor offered me a plea deal. The second degree manslaughter. And second degree manslaughter carries 5 to 10 versus 30 to life for first degree murder.
- [69:28]
A
Okay, that is another thing that was so interesting. I feel like a lot of cases that we work on, the psych evaluations from the defense and the prosecution, it's like reading two different books from two different planets. Years we had difficulty being like, wait, this is the prosecution's psych evaluation? This is. They're identical.
- [69:48]
B
Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing.
- [69:51]
A
Yeah.
- [69:51]
B
And, and what's really crazy is my defense came out of the prosecutor's psych eval. He came out and said, I feel passion provocation fits Clark perfectly. And he explained why. And passion provocation had never been used 30 plus years after the fact. Passion provocation is the husband comes home and his wife's in bed with the mailman and he freaks out and kills one of them or both. That's passion provocation. This was being used 30 plus years after the initial abuse. And there's four factors to it. And he fit me into all four factors in the present day and how it, how it fit. So like their, their side came up with my defense because we had initially come up with diminished capacity.
- [70:53]
A
There is this interesting thing in the book where they do say the problem though is that you're a decent human being. And so they say that's the problem because now with the manslaughter charge, they're saying that you, you will have trouble living with yourself unless you pay a debt to society.
- [71:12]
B
Do you punished.
- [71:13]
A
Do you agree with that?
- [71:21]
B
Strangely, yeah. Yeah. I, I. Cuz I've said to people, you know, like, you know, like some, some of the trolls, you know, like I'm like I. I paid my debt like I did what I was ordered to do. And it gave me time to think about life, to redirect my life, to think about what I want to do with my life. I needed to be away from drugs and alcohol. I needed to bring healing. I needed to confront my demons. And being locked up, even though I was in hell. Prison is hell. I was able to do that.
- [72:15]
A
Oh, I'm so sorry. One thing, though, I will say is I'm gonna link it in the description, but you have this insane interview with the prosecutor that was on your case. I thought it was the most. You guys have such interesting interactions. I'm like, how do you interact with someone that was trying to, at least at some point, make you stay in prison for the rest of your life? Is it like. Is it a weird dynamic or you guys are just buds? Like what?
- [72:48]
B
Actually, this morning at the hotel, before I came here to meet you, guess who I got a text from? The prosecutor, saying.
- [72:57]
A
Saying.
- [72:58]
B
And this is what he said. He goes, I'm sorry I missed your book signing. I was in the hospital. Please save me an autographed book.
- [73:09]
A
No, because you have some very interesting friendships. I mean, you're friends with a lot of the officers that arrested you.
- [73:18]
B
Yeah.
- [73:18]
A
You're friends with the lead prosecutor on your case.
- [73:22]
B
Yeah.
- [73:23]
A
You're friends with a lot of, like the forensic teams that probably process the crime scene.
- [73:28]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. My biggest supporter.
- [73:33]
A
Yeah.
- [73:35]
B
Throughout all of this has been law enforcement.
- [73:38]
A
That's fascinating.
- [73:39]
B
Yeah. From the. From the very get go. Starting with Howie Ryan at the. Actually, it started on my steps of my house when I was arrested. The guy who gave me that state police shirt, he was there. He told his. He was supposed to be getting off. He heard my name mentioned, and he told his sergeant, I know that guy. He's a friend of mine. Let me go to the house in case this goes sideways. I want to be able to talk to Clark. And when I was arrested on my front steps, he came up to me and he goes, and he said quietly, dude, don't say a word. And then it went to Howie Ryan at the state police station and then in the county jail. I thought, because Dennis Pegg worked there, because we heard the rumors 30 plus years ago about him waiting outside, taking inmates home. Nothing ever happened. I thought for sure he was protected. And I thought for sure I'd get the beating of a lifetime in there. And one by one, guards came into this suicide cell and. And said, I never worked with the guy. I'm hearing what an animal. He was just, hang in there. Keep your mouth shut. Don't talk to anybody. And that was like, guy after guy after guy would tell me that.
- [75:11]
A
I mean, that's so rare. I mean, you usually see a lot of stories of, I guess, the blue wall of cops protecting cops.
- [75:22]
B
That's what I thought was going to happen.
- [75:24]
A
Yeah. Wow. So you walk into the courtroom to give your statement. What is that like?
- [75:34]
B
That was torturous. You know, like, I can sit here with you now and talk and. And people will comment on, you know, a few other podcasts I've done. Like, I don't know how you can talk so easily about such trauma. Well, you want to see my first speech? Go look at my courtroom speech on YouTube. It's. It's horrific. It's. It's. I'm shrinking down, trying to make myself so small. I'm just wanting to hide. I can't get words out. I'm, like, stuttering. I'm breaking down, crying, sniveling. From the time that I was 8 years old until I was 12 years old, I was sexually assaulted and raped by Dennis Peck. It started out with him wanting to touch my scar that I had from open heart surgery at the age of six. It progressed to wrestling matches and eventually led to him raping me. At the time, Dennis Pegg was a sheriff's officer, Scout master of troop number 83 in Stillwater, and a close friend of our Dennis Pegg told me that he had sexual relations with a close family relative and also my childhood friend, Jeff Hall. Jeff committed suicide on February 10, 1983, with a shotgun to his head. I was a junior in high school. My brother Jay and I ran into Jeff's house. I remember standing in the living room of Jeff's house with my brother. We got there before the authorities arrived. I saw a puddle of blood on his bathroom floor. I always believe that Jeff killed himself as a result of Dennis Pegg's abuse. As an adult, I visited Jeff's grave at least twice a year. Every Christmas Eve, I went to visit him. I never told anyone about Dennis Pegg's abuse prior to the night of June 12, 2012. But that's how confronting your trauma goes early on. It's tough. It's tough the first couple conversations. People avoid it because they want to avoid that, but that's how you get past it. So I look at that courtroom video as a stepping stone to being able to sit here with you now and talk fluently about it.
- [78:30]
A
But when you're on your way out of that courtroom, everybody starts clapping.
- [78:38]
B
Yeah, that was pretty amazing. Yeah, it wasn't. They weren't clapping for me murdering a pedophile. They were. They were clapping for me confronting my trauma finally. And I actually got a standing ovation, you know, which. Which was pretty amazing. And the, you know, the guards that took me back out of the courtroom into the holding cell, they said to me, wow, that was a first. And I'm like, what's that? They're like, never have I seen somebody admit to murdering somebody and get a standing ovation for it. So I was like. And they're. And they're like, that was some speech you gave. Good job.
- [79:24]
A
Did it make you feel less lonely when people were clapping? Like, what is the feeling? Did you. Did you feel. Is that them showing support? Did you feel less lonely?
- [79:36]
B
I think they could all tell how painful it was to get through what I got through.
- [79:44]
A
And when it comes to sentencing, I mean, it seems like the judge is in a kind of a tricky situation because it seems like there's a lot of debate about what's justice in your case of. Okay, well, typically justice looks like X amount of years, but that doesn't really feel right in this case. But was there some sort of concern that if they didn't give you enough time that other people would start going out and taking justice into their own hands? Was that like a huge.
- [80:14]
B
Well, that was one of the things. Yeah, that was mentioned, and my lawyer had me brace myself for the high end of the sentencing.
- [80:24]
A
Which was 10 years, correct?
- [80:26]
B
Yeah. He goes. He goes, I really can't see anything less than eight years. He goes, you know, I'd be. Just brace yourself for eight to 10 years. He had put in a motion to sentence me to three to five years. Because if you have never been arrested, even though I had all those run ins with those three letter agencies, I was never arrested. And he put in a motion to have me sentenced to a third degree crime. And I had enough time in. Where had the judge gone with that? I. I would have been released. But the, you know, so he. He goes, you know, all this motion that I'm putting in is give. Gives a wider sentencing range. And the. The judge, you know, he. He took a lot of deliberation and he said a lot of things that got me, like, really excited. And I. I'm thinking of liberating Mr. Fredericks at this moment. And I know Mr. Fredericks only did what he did because of what was done to him. And then in the end, he said, I'm not gonna go. I'm not going to acknowledge, you know, the motion for third degree crime. I am going to sentence you to the minimum five years. And I apologize for having to send you to prison for a single day. Wow. The judge gives me the minimum and apologizes for giving me the minimum.
- [82:02]
A
That's such a weird feeling. It's the same thing with Howard Ryan apologizing to you. I mean, I'm. Yeah, it's kind of. I wonder if it's a confusing feeling.
- [82:13]
B
Yes. I say everybody, I think everybody in law enforcement, like, look, you know, a judge isn't supposed to have excommunication, you know, excommunicado communications outside of the courtroom with anybody. They're human, you know, so he's gonna probably hear rumors about Dennis Peg as well.
- [82:32]
A
Yeah.
- [82:33]
B
And the prosecutor ran a dual investigation on what I did and what Dennis Pegg had been up to for his whole life. And it was obvious what Dennis was doing. Everybody knew and it got uncovered and, you know, they don't want to justify what I did. They will still wanted to punish me. And I, you know, at the end of the day, I still had to do five years. It's no walk in the park. It's still five years and. But I had like the perfect storm. I'm in a little small town, a little small county with a monster who had a 45 year reign of terror. Who. Everybody heard something eventually, except maybe Ernest Hempshot who had his ears plugged in. Everybody heard something about Dennis Pig. And at the end of the day, I got the minimum. I don't think that's going to happen to anybody else. It's. You're not going to get this type of perfect storm if you go do what I did. And that's why. And you do not want to try to heal from abuse in prison. Prison is hell. I am the rarity. I was able to do it. I was able to start my healing, you know, getting locked up. But man, don't, don't, don't think you're gonna follow my footsteps, start healing now. And instead of like following me to prison like I did. Ugh, you don't want to do that.
- [84:12]
A
What was the first thing you did when you got out of prison?
- [84:16]
B
Very first thing. My niece picked me up. I'm very close to my niece Kim, and she insisted on picking me up and we went right to a diner.
- [84:27]
A
What'd you order?
- [84:28]
B
Oh, my God. I, I had eggs, sausage, bacon, pancakes, everything, you know, and just wait.
- [84:35]
A
Do you not get. Okay, what Was like your prison. Like what do. What do you eat in prison?
- [84:41]
B
Sorry, this is what. In prison, the food was. Food was tough. I ate six nights a week. I had ramen noodles in mackerel with hot sauce and honey.
- [84:54]
A
That's an interesting combination.
- [84:56]
B
That was six nights a week. On Sunday nights, they gave you real chicken. They gave you a chicken leg. So I would eat the chicken. But the other six nights I had ramen noodles and mackerel.
- [85:10]
A
Wow. So you go to a diner and you order everything.
- [85:13]
B
Yeah, yeah. And. And what? I, you know, everything from jail to prison is gluten. And I didn't. I was in agony my whole five years, like doubled over in pain, agonizing pain, because I had celiac. I didn't know it. And. And I lived on Maalox and Tums for five years. And so getting out and just going to a diner and getting real food, you know, just. That was great.
- [85:47]
A
But after you get out, what happens with your brother?
- [85:53]
B
Yeah. Nobody wanted me. I needed a place to live and my lawyer didn't want me going to my mother's. My mother didn't want me coming to my mother's, my niece, my sister. Nobody wanted me going to my mother's because my brother was there. He got divorced when I was locked up. He lost his business while I was locked up. He lost his 33 acre horse farm when I was locked up. And nobody wanted me to come home because he was in such bad shape. But I had. He was either that or a homeless shelter. So I just said, let me just get out of here and we'll figure things out afterwards. So I went home with my brother and mother.
- [86:38]
A
But you guys still never. I mean, you suspect that he was a victim of Dennis Pegg. He knows you were. But you guys never. Even when you get out of prison, you don't talk about it?
- [86:48]
B
No, no. My brother didn't want to confront anything, didn't want to talk about anything. And it. It's quite often the case, you know, like members of family won't talk about what happened. And I thought when I was in prison, sitting in my prison cell, I would have these amazing conversations with my brother when I got out and then when I got out and the shape he was in, the path he was on, it was. It was difficult.
- [87:20]
A
Do you think he felt guilty that he didn't protect you from.
- [87:24]
B
I'm sure that's part of it. Also, he said numerous times I should have been the one that killed Dennis. He said that over and over to me. Yeah.
- [87:35]
A
When did you find him?
- [87:37]
B
It was two years ago, this past February. He was spiraling. He had gotten sober for nine months, but he was like a dry brush ready to catch fire. He wasn't doing anything spiritually, therapy wise. I finally got him to go to the gym, start working out. He eventually started drinking again, and even on his last day of life, I went to the gym, and I said to the gym owner, was my brother in today? He goes, yeah, he goes. He wasn't feeling that swift, but he was here. I said, okay, that's a good sign. And I went home, and his truck was in the driveway, and I went upstairs, and there he was on the kitchen floor. I thought he had killed himself. I thought he had shot himself. And I started screaming at him, how could you? And then I got closer. And then, though you know, there was no gunshot wound, I called 911, I started CPR, and I did CPR until the ambulance got there. CPR is exhausting. And it was. It took every ounce of me to keep going until they arrived. And then they worked on him for an hour. But he was like. He was long gone by the time I found him.
- [89:17]
A
Do you think Dennis Pegg killed your brother?
- [89:20]
B
Yes. Yep. And there's been times where I wish I could resurrect Dennis after my brother's death.
- [89:34]
A
Why?
- [89:36]
B
To do it all over again. My next door neighbor, Jeff, who was like a brother to me, put a shotgun in his mouth at age 23 and blew his head off. And my brother and I found him in his house. So not only do I find Jeff, then I have to find my brother. And I blame Dennis for both of her deaths.
- [90:03]
A
I do, too.
- [90:05]
B
Yeah.
- [90:07]
A
Since prison, since you killed Dennis, have you drank? Have you done drugs?
- [90:13]
B
Have you? Nope. This past June, I celebrated 13 years sober.
- [90:18]
A
Wow. Was it hard?
- [90:22]
B
The first two years were in jail. And therapist will tell you 18 to 30 months it takes for your brain to rewire itself from the pleasure chemicals of drugs and alcohol. And during those first two years here, I'm facing life in prison, and I'm saying to myself, I cannot wait to see if I get out from under this life sentence so I can have a glass of red wine and a line of cocaine because they went perfect together. And I would say that to guys on a tier that I was friends with, I'd be like, man, I can't wait to do a line of coke with a glass of red wine. And then sometime after that second year, it just like. Like a light just, like, hit me like a meteorite came into my being and I was like, are you out of your mind? Like you can never go back to that. I can never go back to living like the animal I was that died that night with Dennis living that way. And I snapped out of it. That was it.
- [91:30]
A
Wow. And no gambling. Nothing.
- [91:32]
B
No.
- [91:39]
A
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- [94:08]
B
There was advocates working for 15, 20 years to get a new statute of limitations law. What statute of limitations law allows is for victims of sexual abuse to sue their abuser or the organization that harbored their abuser. We had the worst law in the country. Our law stated in New Jersey that at age 18, when you officially became an adult, you had two years to file a lawsuit. So if you got sexually abused at 18, 10, 12, 15, you're going to come forward at 18 to file a lawsuit. It basically was a dead law. Like, like nobody's going to do that. So our statistics said that people don't talk about their abuse until age 48 to 52 is the norm. So we championed a law that took the age up to 55. And what was really holding it up is we wanted a two year open window where when the law went into effect, a two year clock started ticking where anyone, no matter what age the law went up to 55. But in that two year window, you could be 85, 75, 65, and come forward and file a lawsuit. And the Catholic Church were the ones fighting that law. At every hearing, their lawyers were there opposing the law law, saying it would bankrupt the Catholic Church. They literally said, your sons and daughters parochial school will go out of business if this law is passed. The Catholic Church really gets me wound up. And it's not to do with your faith. It's to do with the hierarchy in the way it's run and what they've allowed. And they've harbored their priests to keep them from facing justice. And they're sending their lawyers to stop a law to help victims. And yet they come out and say, we're all for victims. No, you're not. You're not.
- [96:08]
A
And so you spearhead that. What is it in New Jersey now?
- [96:12]
B
The law? We got it passed finally unanimously. I worked for two years as an advocate. I had a lawyer say, you know, your story's so over the top, maybe you can use it to sway some of the senators that are holding up the law. And that's what we did. We started meeting with senators and two years later it went up for vote and it passed unanimously. And we went from the worst law in the country to the strongest Law. So, you know, victims have up until age 55 to come forward, so it gives them plenty of time to heal. And that two year window did happen. It went into effect. And, you know, it's something like if you told me back when I have a mob hit on me, you know, that I'm gonna work as an advocate and change laws, I'd be like, really? Yeah. You think so? I think you're delusional stuff. But. But that's exactly what happened. And myself and every other advocate that worked on that law can go to their grave, you know, like, knowing we accomplished something great.
- [97:17]
A
Have you been to Dennis Peg's grave?
- [97:21]
B
No.
- [97:22]
A
Okay.
- [97:23]
B
No. I know a couple people who reached out to me and sent me private messages on Facebook saying they visited it.
- [97:33]
A
Oh, we had half a mind to go and spit on.
- [97:39]
B
They did something a little worse. Oh, my God.
- [97:45]
A
Yeah. No. Okay, so you're like, they did it.
- [97:47]
B
Yeah, they. They got it covered for all of us.
- [97:52]
A
I see, I see.
- [97:53]
B
And people know everybody's listening and be like, oh, you. You're talking bad. You really did that to somebody. The guy was a monster. He wasn't a human. I've said that over. I can't stress enough. A literal devil. The devil this is. What more could you stereotype the devil as than what this guy was?
- [98:18]
A
Yeah, there's no salvation for someone like that. You did something interesting in prison?
- [98:30]
B
Where are you going with this stuff? I don't even know.
- [98:34]
A
You help someone write a love letter?
- [98:36]
B
I helped a Spanish guy who was facing 10 years, and he had an English girlfriend, and he did not have command of the English language, and he asked me would I write a love letter to his girlfriend about, you know, how much he loved her, and please wait for him and he'll be back.
- [98:58]
A
Did it work?
- [99:00]
B
I don't know. He got shipped off to prison, and that's the last I ever saw of him.
- [99:04]
A
So in my mind, it works.
- [99:08]
B
So, no, I wrote letters for guys to their lawyers, to their public defenders, to the judge, and to their family members. You know, I felt I needed to do stuff for other people to make myself feel better in that situation. Just like I. I needed to do good things because I was in such a dark spot when I was locked up. So I. I constantly did that.
- [99:34]
A
So you never wrote a letter to, like, a college sweetheart?
- [99:40]
B
Nope.
- [99:41]
A
Did you think about it?
- [99:42]
B
I did. And I thought, I'll never get to see Lisa again. I'll never get that chance, you know, to ride off into the sunset, swoop her up off her feet. Especially early on when I was facing life for those three years.
- [99:57]
A
I mean, how often did you think about your college sweetheart?
- [100:02]
B
I thought about her my whole life. Like, she was inside my skull, scratching, like, literally, like, tormenting me. Clarkie, why? Clarkie, why? Why could you not commit to me? And just the shame of that, you know, like, victims love to just shame themselves. So that would add shame to my shame. And then doing drugs would add shame to my shame. And getting involved with the mob would have shame to my shame. And not being able to tell my father would add shame to my shit. So, like, we're just constantly shaming ourselves. And so Lisa was just another source of shame. I thought. I thought I missed my chance. And after that law passed, that law took up a lot of time. I'm working. I was working full time. I was speaking, you know, started motivational speaking. And then when the law passed, I'm like, what now? And I was working as a chef. Assistant chef at a busy restaurant. I'm driving home late at night one night, and I'm like, I either want to get a pit bull or a girlfriend.
- [101:13]
A
Wait, this is a crazy multiple choice. Yes.
- [101:19]
B
So pitbull, girlfriend. Pitbull. I'm like, it's not fair to any girl I get involved with if I'm still thinking about Lisa.
- [101:30]
A
So you never stop thinking about Lisa?
- [101:33]
B
I never did. And I'm like, to get into any relationship, I've got to confront Lisa. And I found her on Facebook. I drafted up a long Facebook message and I deleted it. And I drafted up another message and my thumb hung over the send button and I debated, is it better to keep the fantasy? Maybe I'm just making it up in my mind how amazing our love was and how passionate we were for each other. Maybe time has made me delusional. And it wasn't really all it was all, I think it is.
- [102:14]
A
Because you hadn't seen her since you were twin.
- [102:17]
B
I was probably 23 and she was 22.
- [102:19]
A
And how old are you at this point?
- [102:21]
B
When I got released, I'm 50 years old. And then I worked on the law for a couple years. So now I'm like 52. 53.
- [102:31]
A
Wow. Okay. And now you're like, I don't know, but you send it, right?
- [102:36]
B
So do you. Do you keep the fantasy alive and not send it? Or you pull up your big boy pants and say, let's see what the hell's gonna happen here? And you send it. You gotta send it stuff. You gotta take chances. So I sent it out. Yeah. And I was literally like a crackhead waiting for his dealer to call him back. Like, I checked my phone. Check my phone. I'm at work. I had to check my phone 100 times.
- [103:01]
A
My God.
- [103:02]
B
And I'm like, oh, no, I shouldn't have sent it. Then she replied, and then I replied, and then she replied, and I replied and she replied.
- [103:11]
A
Was it awkward? Was it?
- [103:13]
B
No, it instantly started to flow early on. It was. She thought I couldn't commit to her all those years ago because I didn't love her, and that wasn't the case. I explained that to her. And I explained it was because of all the pain I was harboring inside and I just couldn't be intimate with somebody. Has she heard about what happened at all? Yeah. Like I said, my one roommate and her one roommate ended up married.
- [103:44]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [103:45]
B
Her roommate reached out to her and filled her in. She had written me three letters, I believe, when I was locked up. And she ended up ripping him up because she just wasn't ready to open that door again. Plus, I was facing life. She's like, she just couldn't let herself feel vulnerable at that moment. Now that I was released, she allowed herself to be vulnerable and opened up. And I said, why don't we meet for coffee? She was in New York, I was in New Jersey. Again, she's still thinking I didn't love her. I'm telling her I did. She's not really believing me. So I brought ammunition with me to that first coffee meeting to prove to her that I did, in fact, love her. She had written me a lot of love letters and cards back in the day, and I had saved them. And over the years, whenever I would start lamenting her, I would get out these love letters and reread them and feel connected. Whenever I would feel a gap between us forming, I would get her love letters out and reread them and get that bond back together. Together. I brought a briefcase with me to the coffee shop, and she said, do you always bring a briefcase with you when you have coffee? And I said, there's something inside there I want you to see that will show you that I loved you. And I opened it up and I took out all the love letters from when she was 21 years old and 20 years old and 22 years old. And we sat there rereading them, and that sort of sealed the deal. And I told her, this is how I stayed connected with you over those 30 plus years.
- [105:53]
A
And you didn't really talk to her during those 30 years.
- [105:57]
B
No, there was not one word, not nothing between us.
- [106:01]
A
You just read these letters?
- [106:02]
B
Yeah. And stayed connected that way with her.
- [106:08]
A
Did it feel weird? I mean, I'm sure you guys look different from when you're 20. Or did it feel like nothing changed?
- [106:16]
B
She kept saying to me, we've led two totally different lives. We're two totally different people. You know, we're not the same we were back then. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just, let's go have a coffee. And by the end of that coffee, it was. It was back on.
- [106:41]
A
Okay, so you have a few letters. You're saying some of them are too risque for us to read out loud. Right.
- [106:51]
B
I don't want to embarrass.
- [106:52]
A
Yeah, but there's one. But there's one that we can read.
- [106:56]
B
I think this one from July of 1989. Can you believe that? Should we bring out the author of this letter? Come on. Come here. Author. Please don't read them.
- [107:14]
A
I read about their love story in the book, and I'm the number one fan. I call you guys Lark, which is the ship name, which is when you combine Lisa and Clark. Hello, Lisa. Okay, I mean, you have to tell me, what was it like seeing him at that coffee shop and the briefcase? What did you think was in the briefcase?
- [107:33]
C
I didn't know it was in the briefcase. I mean, first of all, seeing him after, like, three decades, it was unbelievable. The two weeks that we were in communication with each other, it was. We were kind of getting to know each other again, but at the same time, we always would banter back and forth and tease each other, and we always had a very playful relationship. So it was kind of. We got back into that rhythm.
- [107:58]
A
Yeah.
- [107:59]
C
And we met for coffee, and I was so nervous. I remember I was like, okay, I don't want to seem too anxious or too interested or whatever. I didn't know it was going to happen. He had led this crazy life. So there was a part of me that was a little nervous, like, who is this person? Is he the same person I remember from college years, But I just felt this burning desire to explore it and to see him. And I was so impressed with what he was doing with his life from where he was and where he is now. That day when we were meeting and all the good things he was doing, helping to change the statute of limitations law in New Jersey, being an advocate, speaking out, getting other people to speak out, I was truly inspired by him. So I was. I said, I have to at least meet him for coffee, even if we just have a friendship. Like, I just felt like this was something I just needed to do at this point. Point in my life.
- [109:03]
A
Did you think about him as often as he thought about you?
- [109:07]
C
I. Probably not.
- [109:10]
A
Sorry.
- [109:13]
C
I mean, I was so busy living my life, you know, I was growing a business. I had children. I was married to somebody else for 20 years. The marriage was deteriorating, and. But at the same time, I did think about him because I felt like he was that one person. I think everyone has that one person that. Their first love and that person that. There was never any sort of closure with Clark. When the relationship ended, I still loved him, and I didn't understand why we didn't work. And the connection was definitely unlike any other connection I'd had, even, you know, my marriage. So I just felt like I just. I had to do it. I just didn't want to spend my life regretting not seeing him, not talking to him.
- [110:08]
B
So Stephanie read the book and was telling me about how Clark was saying.
- [110:13]
A
That you're this force of nature. When you guys first.
- [110:19]
C
First, yes.
- [110:21]
B
The first time you guys met, it.
- [110:23]
A
Was in the library.
- [110:24]
B
And then you just plop down.
- [110:25]
C
Right, right. It was the ELF center, which was the student center at Northeastern.
- [110:31]
B
So can you tell us your point of view?
- [110:34]
A
Oh, my gosh.
- [110:35]
B
Okay.
- [110:35]
C
Yeah. So when I. When I walked in, I mean, first of all, I was a freshman, he was a sophomore, and I grew up in a house. I'm one of three girls. I was the middle daughter, and I was the more of the rebellious person. And my parents were, like, just always I had all these rules, you know, that I had to follow. And when I went away to college, it was like. I felt like I was just being let out of a cage. You know, My parents were very strict. So I just felt like when I was in college, and that was. Actually. I met Clark. I think it was the first semester that I was there. So it was the fall, and I just felt free. And I just walked into the L Center, and I saw this young guy sitting. And he looked so lonely because he was sitting at, like. There was, like, a round table and four chairs, and he was, like, alone. Except there was just. He was in one chair, and there were three empty chairs. And I was like, all right, maybe I'll just sit down and say hello. And I just was. I just did. And he looked at me, and, like, his eyes. His blue eyes just captivated me immediately. But he was really quiet, and I was like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Blah. Just talking all about myself. And I don't think he really knew what to say. And I don't know if he'd ever met anyone quite like me, so. From his little town of Stillwater. Yeah, I was just. I just kind of talked, talked, talked, talked, talked. And then I finally paused and said, and do you ever talk? You did.
- [112:14]
A
So this is so funny, because in his book, he writes that he was just trying to focus on schoolwork. And he says, like, no, he looked lonely. So I needed to.
- [112:22]
C
I felt like I needed to just talk to him.
- [112:25]
A
And.
- [112:25]
C
Yeah. And that was our first meeting, you know, and it was intense right from the start. I feel like he invited me to a party he was having that weekend at his apartment. And I got there, and I was just looking for him. And we shared our first kiss that night.
- [112:41]
A
Oh, my goodness.
- [112:42]
C
And I was 18, actually, when we met, so it was a very long time ago. And Northeastern was a co op program, so we were kind of coming and going. There were not cell phones at the time, so, like, just connecting and reconnecting with different semesters, you know, was interesting, but we always seemed to find each other.
- [113:03]
A
So do you guys still have the same dynamic where you're the one that's, like, talking his ear off or he's now the talker?
- [113:12]
C
I don't know if you could sense from the inter. No, I love. I absolutely love talking to him. I just enjoy talking. And I think that was when we reconnected. It was like getting to know him all over again. But he was a different person now when. I mean, this was six years ago, but he was a different person than when I knew him back in college. I mean, he was a free person. Free from prison and also free from, you know, his. His secrets. And he had healed, and he was evolved, and it was like our relationship was a million times better because we were both in a different place in our lives, and the timing was right for both of us. So that's what made it so incredible.
- [114:03]
A
You guys have such fascinating. And you're getting shy. Are you guys getting. I'm getting shy. You guys are such a. So fascinating.
- [114:11]
B
I. I'm watching smile. Smiling more than you.
- [114:16]
A
I think it's because I feel like we have maybe a similar dynamic where I. We call it yapping.
- [114:24]
C
Yeah.
- [114:24]
A
So I yap to him, not with him. When the cops came to arrest you, they searched your room and they found your love letters.
- [114:33]
B
Yeah, well, when they. When they.
- [114:36]
A
Yeah.
- [114:36]
B
Come to your house, they, like, trash it. You know, they. They dumped Every drawer out. Tore the bedding apart, the closet, everything was out. I had two cedar cabinet desks and you know, just everything is dumped out. And my mother went to like try to put everything back together in this room. And she came across this letters addressed from Lisa and saw the postmark from 1989, 1990, 1991. And she said, what has Clark held on to these for, for so long? These have to be as valuable as gold to him. So I got to put these in a safe place. So my mother went through my mess, scooped up my love letters and held them for me until I got released. And then she's like, I found these straightening out your room. Why have you kept all these letters? And I'm like, that's how I stayed connected with Lisa mom over the, over the years. And she's like, well, here they are. Put them in a safe place. So that's what I did.
- [115:53]
A
Do you think your mom knew or all along?
- [115:55]
B
Yeah, I would. I would tell my mom. I would cry to my mom, you know, not. Not every year. Maybe it would, you know, like, maybe after, after the mob threatening my life and having the FBI come say there's a hit put on you, maybe I sat with my mom then and said, like, man, I've really allowed life to get away from me. I wish, I wish I had never lost Lisa, you know, and, and cried with her over that. But her and I had talks over the years about Lisa. And when Lisa would come and visit, she would get up early and go sit on my parents bed as they're both still in bed, my father and mother, and have these long talks as they're still lying in bed. And they just loved her. So this letter she got for me, it says, for yesterday's memories, today's love, and tomorrow's dreams, I love you.
- [116:52]
A
Wait, could you read us a snippet of the letter you wrote him?
- [116:56]
B
Sure.
- [116:56]
A
Have you read this since like.
- [116:58]
C
Oh my gosh. So when I. When he first showed me the letters and I started to read them in the coffee shop, I started hysterically laughing because reading a letter that you wrote 30 years ago, at that point in your life where you're just all hormones, you know, you're like 18, 19, just discovering love.
- [117:20]
B
Do we know what parts you can read? Oh, boy.
- [117:25]
C
So this was written July 16, 1989.
- [117:29]
A
Oh my goodness.
- [117:30]
C
Yeah. And when he had these letters, it just. I realized that this is true. You just never could believe someone would be thinking about you for 30 years. But when they take your letters out of A briefcase and show them to you. You're like, they really were thinking about me all this time. Like, no one holds on to letters for 30 years unless that person really meant something incredibly deep to them. So it made it real for me, seeing the letters. So. All right, here we go. Dearest Clark, we've shared so many memories together, both good and not good. So good ones. I like to remember the good ones because they're the ones that stick out in my mind. The time that we drank wine at Ed Burke's was an early memory, but one that, for some reason, always sticks out in my mind. The next sentence will skip. I think knowing that you would go to all lengths to satisfy me really intrigued me. All right, that's as risque as we're getting. I often think about the quiet times we've spent together just staring into each other's eyes across a dinner table when we were out or when we were in bed together holding each other. I see something so caring and wonderful about the way you look at me that somehow makes me shake. During times like that, nothing needs to be said because I know what you're saying to me with your eyes. Those romantic times were great, but the wild and crazy times were great as well. Skip the next sentence. Oh, my gosh. All of these times that we've shared have become cherished thoughts that are embedded in my head and my heart. I don't exactly know at what point I actually fell in love with you. I just know that at this point, each day I spend without you is a torment. Every time I get off the phone with you, I feel alone again. I get through each day with the thought that one day soon we will be together and I won't have to ever feel lonely again. Those are my dreams for our tomorrow. I miss you so much right now that I hurt. I need you, Lisa. So. Yeah, that's. Yeah. So imagine reading that letter 30 years later and feeling all those emotions that you felt. Yeah, it was incredible. And it's still incredible.
- [120:18]
A
And you get those letters in prison.
- [120:20]
C
Pristine condition in their envelopes. But this is how we communicated, you know, because we didn't have cell phones, so we wrote. I wrote him lots of letters, and he kept them all.
- [120:34]
B
So.
- [120:35]
A
So what do you guys do now for fun together?
- [120:39]
B
What we really cherish is Sundays and Monday mornings we have together to have coffee.
- [120:45]
C
It's our time together together. And we like going for walks, and we just like to explore different places to walk. And we cook together, which we love to do. Clark's an incredible cook. We like listening to podcasts.
- [121:01]
A
Movies. Yes. Yes. Do you watch all of his podcasts?
- [121:05]
C
I do.
- [121:05]
B
I do.
- [121:06]
C
And I. I do. And I. I try to give him constructive criticism because I want him. I think his platform is so important, and I want him to grow, and I think he's doing such meaningful work, and he continues to inspire me ever since we reconnected. I'm just. I tell him he's a constant source of inspiration for me.
- [121:26]
A
Yeah.
- [121:27]
B
Yeah. And Lisa made the comment one. One time. It doesn't matter what we do as long as we're together. So the day before we flew down to do your show, my mother was in the hospital, so we had to go pick her up from the hospital. It took a while, you know, to get her discharged. Drove her home, got her home, and the same thing. We just took her from the hospital for. Happened again, and we had to turn around and drive her back to the hospital, and we met my sister there, and we were there a while, and so it was a really long day. And then eventually we had to leave my mother there. And driving home that night, I said to her, I go, you know, you made the comment one time. It doesn't matter what we're doing as long as we're together. So I hope that holds true for today as well. And she's like, of course it does. Yeah. So we're a team for sure.
- [122:36]
C
And I think that's when you know you're with the right person, because it's not. It doesn't feel like a chore to do that. You just want to be there for them.
- [122:44]
A
But is. Is your mother okay?
- [122:48]
B
She's home now.
- [122:48]
C
Yeah.
- [122:49]
B
Yeah. She's got a. Some medical issues we got to get straightened out, but she's home right now.
- [122:57]
C
And Clark and his sister are such a great team. Like, they come together, and they take turns and help, and she's 96, his.
- [123:04]
B
Mom, so August 31st, she'll be 96.
- [123:08]
C
Yeah, she's turning 96 this month.
- [123:11]
A
Oh, my.
- [123:11]
C
Yeah.
- [123:13]
B
Is she happy that you two are back together?
- [123:17]
C
She's one of my biggest fans.
- [123:19]
B
She.
- [123:19]
C
She calls me Lisa, my love, just like Clark.
- [123:22]
A
Oh, my goodness.
- [123:24]
C
I'm so happy you're back in Clark's life. I always knew that you were the one. You were so special. She said, I'm just so happy that you're here.
- [123:33]
A
I feel like moms know.
- [123:35]
C
Yeah, yeah.
- [123:37]
A
Stop. Okay. I. Lisa, we need a podcast episode on Clark's podcast review, which I'm gonna link in the description along with his book. And I would be obsessed if you. You guys filmed TikToks together. I don't know. I just want to know more about your life. I'm obsessed to the point where I genuinely feel like I'm a side character in a rom com at this point. You guys have some intense chemistry. I can only imagine those letters. Yes.
- [124:07]
B
Can I ask a final question?
- [124:09]
A
Yes.
- [124:10]
B
Clark, I know you commented there are seasons to life. Yes. What would you say what season you're in right now? I would say, you know, and I tell people this because there's so many times I thought of giving up, but I always retained a little glimmer of hope. And, you know, so there's like cold, dark winters where nothing's going right in your life. You got the FD FBI telling you there's a hit, you've just committed murder, you're a drug addict, you're in prison. Those are all cold, dark winters. You're getting sexually assaulted and animals being beaten in front of you. Cold, dark winter. And I tell people, don't ever lose hope, that sunshine awaits you and opportunity awaits you. And I would say in the spring is when you plant. I would say I'm just starting to harvest, so I'm in that spring to summer mode. I'm not in the full, full blown summer of harvesting yet. It's been a long road to get to this point. That book has taken 10 years. I wrote that in prison 10 years ago. So for people that want to lose hope, like my book took 10 years, like, don't lose hope. And opportunity awaits you around the corner. It's not going to be tomorrow sometimes, but it definitely awaits. And this book will instill hope in you and inspiration. That's what I. It wasn't written to be a trauma dump. It was written to give people hope that anything is possible. Like I'm living proof that literally anything is possible.
- [126:13]
A
Yeah. And you're reunited with.
- [126:16]
B
And I get the girl back at the end.
- [126:18]
A
Yeah.
- [126:19]
B
Like. Like it should be a movie. My life literally has been a movie.
- [126:23]
A
Yeah. No, they need a movie. I need a movie. You guys are incredible. Please keep us updated. Not even just us, but like our audience on everything you guys are going to do. Okay, Lisa, please promise me you're going to keep us updated.
- [126:37]
C
I'm going to start doing some taking some classes about TikTok videos. Like tomorrow maybe on the plane home. You never know.
- [126:43]
A
Yes. And I am going to leave all of the links in the description. Thank you guys for joining.
- [126:50]
C
Thank you so much, Stephanie. Thank you guys were amazing. Amazing. To us.
- [127:05]
A
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