81: Video Games with Ash Brandin

Summary

Sage Family Podcast – Episode 81: Video Games with Ash Brandin
Released: January 31, 2023
Host: Rachel Rainbolt | Guest: Ash Brandin

Episode Overview

This episode centers on understanding and reframing the role of video games and technology in family life. Host Rachel Rainbolt is joined by Ash Brandin—a middle school teacher, librarian, gamer, and parent—to explore myths, research, and practical approaches for integrating gaming in a balanced, values-led way. The conversation moves away from fear-based narratives and moral judgments around screens, advocating for curiosity, critical thinking, and family-centered decision-making.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Ash’s Background and Philosophy

[01:51–05:35]

• Ash introduces themselves as a middle school teacher/librarian who has always viewed gaming as a positive, engaging force.
• They advocate for treating video games and tech as "morally inert"—not inherently good or bad, but shaped by context and usage.
• Quote:

  "I would say that I view screens and games as sort of morally inert... In the same way that we view many other interests as morally inert." – Ash [04:15]

2. What the Research Really Says About Video Games

[05:36–16:03]

• Many fears about gaming (e.g., violence, negative behaviors) trace to flawed or outdated studies, often cited out of context.
• The "noise blast" and "SpongeBob" studies are dissected, revealing serious limitations—misapplied age groups, artificial environments, and exaggerated results.
• Critical thinking and skepticism toward both positive and negative research is encouraged.
• Quote:

  "A lot of the foundational studies... have been largely disproven... what we might see in a laboratory setting... does not necessarily end up relating to behavior in real life." – Ash [07:02]

• Central guidance: Family decisions should come from intimate knowledge of one’s own child and circumstances, not just data.

3. Moral Panic and Blame: The Playground Analogy

[16:35–20:31]

• Screens are often blamed for emotions and meltdowns, whereas similar reactions in other contexts (like the playground) are accepted as normal.
• We rarely ban playgrounds because of tantrums; the same grace should apply to tech.
• Quote:

  "When our child has a tantrum when it’s time to leave the playground, we don’t ban them from ever coming back. But when they have a tantrum about screens, we’re very quick to blame the screen." – Ash [16:49]

4. Systemic Gaps and the Real Role of Screens

[23:13–30:16]

• Video games and screens often fill unavoidable gaps in support—affordable childcare, time for parents' needs, school teaching resources, etc.
• The focus should shift from blaming screens to addressing larger societal gaps.
• Quote:

  "If we are really concerned about an overuse of screens, then what we actually need to focus on are the systemic gaps and inequalities that necessitate those use of screens in the first place." – Ash [23:34]

• Parents are urged to release guilt and make conscious, needs-based choices.

5. Enjoyment and Value: Coexistence of Technology and Nature

[30:16–32:28]

• Enjoying TV, games, and technology isn’t incompatible with valuing nature, learning, or gentle living.
• Gaming can enhance real-world experiences—e.g., relating a hiking trip to gaming adventures.
• Dismissing or devaluing video game references (vs. book references) is hypocritical.

6. How Much Is Too Much? Determining the 'Right' Amount

[32:28–36:24]

• There is no universally “correct” amount: balance should serve everyone in the family.
• Research: Negative mental health outcomes only emerge with very high use (3–4+ hours/day). Moderate play (1–3 hours) actually shows better outcomes than none.
• Both excessive and zero play can be correlated with worse well-being.
• Quote:

  "The right amount is an amount that is beneficial to everyone in a family." – Ash [32:36]

7. Alternatives & “What Can I Replace This With?”

[37:48–42:15]

• Instead of asking “what is this replacing” (which frames gaming as inherently negative), ask “can I reasonably replace this with something else?”
• Sometimes, nothing else will fill the need (e.g., keeping a child safely occupied for a meeting).
• Consider providing other engaging materials, activities, or access to the outdoors/social opportunities, but don’t force “replacements” for their own sake.

8. Division of Responsibility: Parallels with Food

[42:15–45:57]

• Parents decide when and what tech is available; kids decide what to do with it and how to feel.
• Validating big feelings about tech transitions, without personalizing or shaming them, builds regulation.
• Quote:

  “It’s their job to have a feeling about this.” – Ash [42:25]

9. Real Benefits of Video Games

[45:57–51:27]

• Not every activity needs to have measurable, “productive” outcomes—enjoyment and relaxation matter.
• Video games foster intrinsic motivation: autonomy, competence, relatedness.
• Kids often experience a sense of control, mastery, and safe experimentation in gaming—sometimes more so than in real life.
• Observe and get curious: What skills, strategies, or satisfaction are they experiencing?
• Quote:

  “They’re getting to see what happens... It’s this safe experimentation.” – Ash [49:21]

10. Supporting Kids Through Frustration: Modeling and Validation

[51:35–55:50]

• Empower kids with executive functioning skills and questions like: “What have you already tried?”
• Model problem-solving, investigate together, and validate disappointments the same way you would for real-world activities.
• Avoid dismissive statements (“it’s just a game”)—the feelings are real.
• If frustration escalates, help the child pause and co-regulate.

11. Curiosity, Connection, and Off-Ramps

[55:50–61:50]

• Ask open questions about their games with genuine interest ("What did you try?", "How will you know when you’re done?")—parallels to winding down play at a park.
• Support kids in envisioning a stopping place, planning exits, and developing self-regulation—even in open-ended games.
• Quote:

  “How will you know when you’re done? This is really helpful for kids who like open-ended or open-world games.” – Ash [58:04]

12. Careers, Community, and Resources

[61:50–64:04]

• Video games can be a legitimate passion and career path (e.g., Rachel’s husband is a video game designer).
• For evaluating specific games:
  • Common Sense Media (noted as conservative, but informative)
  • YouTube for gameplay previews

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Moral Judgment:

  “I try to think of screens as sort of morally inert... In the same way we don’t attribute worth to a kid’s interest in soccer.” – Ash [04:15]

• On Study Limitations:

  “So can we really say playing a violent video game is going to make a 10 year old do some sort of act of violence later? I just don’t think we can draw that conclusion.” – Ash [08:45]

• On Blaming Screens:

  “Screens are a scapegoat that can’t fight back.” – Ash [23:34]

• On Enjoyment:

  “It’s okay to just like them. Like, they are enjoyable... And it’s okay to just play them because you like them.” – Ash [30:06]

• On Family Wellbeing:

  “The right amount is an amount that is beneficial to everyone in a family.” – Ash [32:36]

• On Intrinsic Motivation in Gaming:

  “Video games are very intrinsically motivating... autonomy, competence and relatedness.” – Ash [47:10]

• On Tech and Connection:

  “If they’d made a connection to a book, we’d see it as good—but somehow a gaming connection is bad.” – Ash [31:49]

• On Transitions:

  “How will you know when you’re done? ...helping them envision a stopping place.” – Ash [58:04]

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Important Timestamps

• [01:51] – Ash introduces themselves and gaming philosophy
• [05:36] – Research myths and the “noise blast” study
• [10:22] – The “SpongeBob” study and its misrepresentations
• [16:49] – Playground analogy for screen-related meltdowns
• [23:34] – Systemic issues and screens as patchwork
• [32:36] – How much is “too much” gaming?
• [45:57] – Real value/benefits of video games
• [51:35] – Handling frustration and problem-solving in gaming
• [58:04] – “How will you know when you’re done?” and other off-ramps
• [62:50] – Resources for evaluating games

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Additional Resources

• Instagram: @thegamereducator
• Website: thegamereducator.com
• Game Evaluation: Common Sense Media, YouTube gameplay videos

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Takeaways

Ash Brandin and Rachel Rainbolt encourage families to approach video games with curiosity, adaptability, and grace. By stepping beyond fearmongering and embracing both the needs of children and parents, families can create healthy, fulfilling relationships with technology and screens—validating kids’ interests, skills, and emotional landscapes along the way.

Transcript

[Rachel Rainbolt]

Welcome to the Seed Family Podcast where we explore natural homeschooling, gentle parenting, simple

[Ash Brandon]

living and family adventure.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

I'm Rachel Rainbolt, the Sage family mentor, coming to you from an island in the Pacific Northwest where I live wild and free in connection with my hilarious husband and three growing sailors in our fixer upper on the beach. So join us around the campfire and let's get living the family life of our dreams. Today I'm here with Ash Brandon talking about video games. Ash is a middle school teacher who has been putting gaming principles into practice for over 10 years. A gamer, educator and parent, they help families raise kids with a balance of gaming responsibilities and other hobbies. If you are feeling out of alignment with your values or needs around video games, I highly recommend the Bukkit system through which you can front load your priorities, hold space for your values, and have a place for technology. You can jump in with [e-mail] bucket-system.

[Rachel Rainbolt]

All right, so Leah McDermott, who joined me in episode 15 to discuss screens, actually recommended Ash's Instagram page and I've been following along with their posts ever since. So welcome to the show, Ash.

[Ash Brandon]

Thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here.

[Rachel Rainbolt]

Will you introduce yourself and share a bit about who you are and what you're passionate about?

[Ash Brandon]

Yeah. So my name is Ash Brandon. My pronouns are they, them, and I am a middle school teacher and currently teacher librarian in the Frank Range of Colorado. And I have been in education, I mean in one way or the other, for most of my life, but in public Edit this is like my 12th year and I am someone who's just always really enjoyed video games as part of my life. And I never quite realized that the way I conceptualize them and how they fit in with my life was in any way unusual until I started involving them in what I do and relating them to education and realizing that other people didn't do that. And so then I realized, oh, this is maybe I'm a little bit different this way. And finding ways to make kids interested and engaged and involved in their learning I think is something that many teachers are always trying to do. But for me it just felt like a very natural entry point to use an interest like video games. And in the last few years it's been something I've kind of pivoted toward a broader audience of sort of like parenting and caregiving because I naively thought that this sort of disconnect was unique to educators and that this disconnect I was seeing was just in my field and I pretty quickly realized that actually it's not. And it's I think, something that a lot of adults struggle with, particularly when raising kids, because we just really want to not screw up our kids. Yes, I empathize, I empathize with that wholeheartedly. And so I'm just trying to occupy a place where I can help families navigate that and really figure out what is going to be best and beneficial for everyone in their family when it comes to using screens and video games.

[Rachel Rainbolt]

Yeah, that's really cool. It seems like you had this experience in your personal life of gaming as being this positive thing that like you experienced and there was, you could tell that there was a lot going on there, like different components of maybe motivation or you know, drive or whatever, all the different facets of it.

[Ash Brandon]

Right.

[Rachel Rainbolt]

And then started combining that with your passion for education to see how those two things could be pulled together. I love that.

[Ash Brandon]

Yeah. And to be honest, I never really saw them as things that couldn't go together. You know, people often say like, oh, you're pro screen. And I often say like I'm not. I wouldn't necessarily say I'm pro screen. I would say that I view screens and games as sort of like morally inert.

[Rachel Rainbolt]

Yes.

[Ash Brandon]

And in the same way that we view many other interests as morally inert. You know, we don't attach a worth in terms of like moral worthiness to like a kid's interest in stalker. Yeah. You know, and so similarly I try to do the same for things like games. I just view them as a part of life. And so because they're a part of life, I've tried to pull on them and relate them to things in kids lives the same way I would if they have an interest in, you know, a particular musician or a sport.

[Rachel Rainbolt]

Yeah, yeah. Like a pencil, you know, like.

[Ash Brandon]

Right.

[Rachel Rainbolt]

You know, you could stab someone with a pencil. You could write like terrible hateful things or you could like do all kinds of wonderful like nurturing things that enhance your well being. So yeah, I like that like morally inert component. It's more about let's look at our relationships with it and how we can utilize it as opposed to it being something that, that inherently has some moral quality to it.

[Ash Brandon]

Yes, very well said.

[Rachel Rainbolt]

I love that. Okay, let's start with research. What does the research actually tell us about the effects of technology use in gaming with children?

[Ash Brandon]

So this is sort of a huge can of worms because you know, I can't account for every study that's ever been written Obviously in this area, because there are quite a few. But a lot of our kind of common assumptions or frankly our fears around gaming and behavior or violence and the ways they might impact our kids is actually kind of a product of a few select studies that kind of ended up kind of tainting the pool, as it were, and kind of ended up taking over the rhetoric that we then often read about or hear about in any sort of media when it comes to gaming. And these are studies that happened over 20 years ago, and then we still will see them referenced, or we've seen other studies based upon them as a foundation, and then we're referencing those. So I'm not sure how into the weeds you want me to get with these studies, but I can. But I would say that a lot of the foundational studies that we base a lot of these assumptions on in the couple of decades that have passed have been largely disproven in some way. And this tends to be because they are found to have had a big issue with bias and how they were done or just what they found isn't necessarily supportive of their finding in print. So, you know, what we might see in a laboratory setting, for example, does not necessarily end up relating to behavior in real life. So one of the most groundbreaking and infamous Studies is a 2000 study by researchers Anderson and Dill. And they, for example, they claim to have found a causal relationship between video games and negative behavioral outcomes. And the way that they did this was with something called a noise blast test. And this is a relatively common thing to do in a lab setting. But a noise blast test just means you have two people, and in any, you know, in any kind of competitive thing, and whomever wins gets to press a button and then the loser gets blasted with some static noise, like some white noise. And this study found that when a participant had played a violent game, they blasted their opponent with noise for longer than when they played a non violent game. And that was the only significant finding. That was it. And so from there they used those results. And in their results summary, they basically said, see, this shows that violent games are going to make kids violent. And they did this study with adults who were in college, so they weren't kids. And they were also incentivized to participate. So there's like some layers there of some potential issues. And when I read a study like that, what I see is, okay, like we're measuring arousal and excitement, and it's very hard to really say, okay, so these adults in a lab setting were engaging in a behavior that they knew was not actually going to cause any long lasting harm. They knew it was going to happen. They were consenting to this. And we find this finding. So from there, can we really say that playing a violent video game is going to make a 10 year old do some sort of act of violence later in their life? And I just don't necessarily think that we can draw that conclusion.

[Rachel Rainbolt]

Yeah, I think a lot of the studies tend to have like, as a, from a person with a master's degree in family therapy, lots of like time invested into research and how it's conducted. And we want our studies to be reliable and valid. Right. Which essentially means we want them to like, are they actually proving what we're saying they're proving and then can those results be duplicated? And a lot of the studies like that cross my desk or that I, you know, stumble upon when I'm looking. Like you said, first of all, it's a lot of like citation from a citation from a citation from a citation. So like trying to dig down to like, you know, the original stuff is hard. And then when you look at them, a lot of times they're not actually really testing what they're saying, they're testing like, I think one study that you talked about on Instagram was talking about something to do with SpongeBob. Right. But the kids were too young to even be watching SpongeBob.

[Ash Brandon]

And yes, this, that's another great example that's happened in the last few years because there's some relatively popular accounts that really like to talk about the effect of shot length. So the length of a, of like the length of a shot in a TV show, like how long a frame is on screen. And there's become this very popular, you know, supposedly objective metric that, oh, we should avoid shows that have, you know, shot lengths of fewer than. I think it's like three to five seconds and that it's a good show. Good is in quotation marks here, has longer shot lengths. And that is based on this study that's kind of nicknamed the spongebob study. And they found, I mean, exactly what you're saying. They found that kids who watched nine minutes of SpongeBob SquarePants behaved worse on executive functioning tasks when compared with kids who colored for nine minutes. And they performed worse compared with kids who watched a supposedly good TV show for nine minutes. And so again, then we have to look at this, okay, so these were 4 year old kids. Spongebob is not approved for 4 year olds. It has a content rating of 6 and above by its creator. So they were watching content that they probably had never seen before, but also was just at a, you know, designed for kids that are not them. Right. So it's like they're seeing a whole, like, strata of media that they probably haven't seen before. And I always laugh at the study because the supposedly good show that they showed the kids was Kayu, which is a character that parents like, hate. They, like, hate Keiu. I don't really have feelings about it because I've never watched it, but it's just, to me, it's such a good example of we can't just look at data in a vacuum and then apply that directly to our lives and think that that's going to give us replicable findings in our real lives. Because in reality, all kids, all brains and all needs are really different. And even looking at that study, all I could think was like, wait a minute. Spongebob is the kind of show that. Where there's like too many episodes.

[Rachel Rainbolt]

Mm.

[Ash Brandon]

Right. So the whole episode, maybe it takes 30 minutes, but without commercials it's 22 minutes. Which means that each mini episode is 11 minutes, which means that they stopped the kids nine minutes into an 11 minute show. And if you think about like, you know, our kind of the storytelling arc, that's like three quarters of the way in. So they're probably right about to resolve the plot. Wait, wait, what happened exactly? And all I could think was like, of course they're mad. Like, of course they're distracted. So they're like, hey, stop watching this show you've never seen. That's like nothing you've ever seen before. And you were just about to figure out what happened and now go take a test. Like, of course they're not going to do as well. Of course they're distracted. Of course they're thinking about something that they just saw and that. Is that really bad? Like if you pulled me out of an episode of Law and Order, like nine minutes to the end, and you were like, now go take this executive functioning test. Like, I probably wouldn't do that well either.

[Rachel Rainbolt]

Yeah. Wait, what happened? Wait, exactly. Back to the show.

[Ash Brandon]

Exactly. Especially with something like coloring, it's like, well, with coloring, it's like you can stop and come back and pick up where you left off. Is that really a comparable task? You know, is that really a control task? So there's a lot of nuance that we really have to bring in when we're looking at results. And that's not to say I should say I think we need to do that with results that maybe go against what we believe and results that might confirm what we might believe. This came up recently with a study that talked about cognitive benefits of games. And I try to kind of bring the same kind of critical eye because, you know, I can say till I'm blue in the face, you know, correlation is not causation when we talk about negative outcomes. And that doesn't, that has to be true when we're looking at supposedly positive outcomes too. And this gets me to one of my kind of soapbox issues, which is that I actually, although I love data, I actually don't think that data, we can't hang our hat on data alone when we're trying to make decisions for our family. And a lot of the times with screens for people who kind of grew up in this gaming negative ethos that's kind of all around us in media and what we read and how we're educated and brought up, or what we hear from our own families. If data was really all it took to change someone's mind or to get them to do the quote unquote right thing, we would look very different as a society. Right. The last three years are very good proof of that in many ways. Yeah. And so, you know, I saw this recently with someone who was talking about the study that showed positive outcomes from video games and a lot of comments from people were like, well, I just don't believe that. And on the one hand, like data doesn't care.

[Rachel Rainbolt]

Right.

[Ash Brandon]

But that is, that to me is the more important point is that like we can have all the data in the world and if it really conflicts with what a person feels about what they want from their family, it's not really going to matter. So on the other hand, I don't always think it's very fruitful to try and find data that supports us because I think it's more about making sure people understand, you know, here's broadly what we probably know or don't know and here's the things we can keep in mind and then how do we take that and make a well informed decision for what's going to be best for us?

[Rachel Rainbolt]

Yes, yes. And staying open minded to like new information that becomes available and filtering or critically examining that information as it comes in. But all of that is not like, that's not like the main course. So like your intimate knowledge of your very unique child and your family's needs and that might change from developmental season or like the seasons of your family and all of that and that Is really, really. Like the main course.

[Ash Brandon]

Exactly.

[Rachel Rainbolt]

Yeah. Okay, so screens are a common scapegoat. Like, they're often blamed for behavior that we view as problematic, like you said. And you've drawn a helpful parallel between leaving a playground and turning off screens. Can you share that with us?

[Ash Brandon]

Yes. So I've shared this several times that it always seems to resonate with people and can sometimes rile people up, which kind of goes back to what we were just talking about. And, you know, the reframe I give is kids have big feelings and tantrums about things all the time in their lives. In fact, we like to joke about it with a lot of things. The irrational tantrum that they seem to have. The irrational tantrum. So when our child has a tantrum, when it's time to leave the playground, we don't ban them from ever coming back to playgrounds. But when they have a tantrum about screens, we're very quick to blame the screen. Right. When they have a tantrum at a playground, we don't blame the playground. We don't say, like, oh, I knew it was because we came to this playground with that twisty slide, we're never coming back here again. We don't do that. And even when, you know, the quintessential toddler meltdown about, like, a banana, you know, which, like everyone. It's like a rite of passage which we all have to go through, and it's like, oh, I opened the banana exactly how you told me to, and now you're having a meltdown. We would never turn to our child and be like, well, I've never given you a banana again. And it's. We laugh because it sounds so absurd, but we are very quick to do that with screens. And I think that fundamentally it's because we don't see screens as a valid use of time.

[Rachel Rainbolt]

Yeah.

[Ash Brandon]

And that. That also, I think, goes with that data conversation around, like, if we have this fundamental feeling of, like, well, these are always. There's something about this that is not inherently okay, then it doesn't matter what the data says. If we have this fundamental feeling of, like, well, there's something wrong with this. And that's why I try to say that I try to think of screens as sort of morally inert.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

Yeah.

[Ash Brandon]

Because if we don't ascribe a moral feeling to them, it's a lot harder to start blaming them for things. In the same way that I try, you know, I'm not going to blame the playground because, again, I'm not really attributing moral worth to the playground.

[Rachel Rainbolt]

Yeah, yeah. It can be more about like, when and how can the playground be a value add to your kid in your life and when and how is it maybe not worth it and that's okay too, but either way, it's not the playground's fault. Right?

[Ash Brandon]

And I will sometimes have parents say like, well, but sometimes I do avoid like, you know, sometimes if I know like my kid's gonna have a meltdown in the grocery store, then we do avoid it. And to that I would say, yes, we do. We avoid it. We do not blame the grocery store for our child's feelings. And we don't swear that we'll never take our kid to a grocery store again in the rest of their lives. We find other ways around that, right? We go to a different store, we map our visit differently. You know, in the case of playgrounds, it's like maybe we try a different playground, we try a different time of day, we try a different technique. We like, we problem solve. And we do that because we see an inherent value for that in our child's life. So again, coming back to, you know, if we can see screens as this sort of just, it's going to be a part of our lives, I think it becomes easier to treat it with some of that neutrality. Screens are not going anywhere, right? They're going to become more ubiquitous and more available. And what do we really want? We really want kids who grow into adults who have a balance with these things, who can be playing PlayStation 8 or whatever it is in 20 years and be like, hey, I have to put this down. I have a midterm. Right? And that's probably not going to happen if we constantly blame them for our kids behaviors and feelings and also try to withhold them because then we're not giving our kids the opportunity to practice these skills and regulation around these things that will inevitably be part of their lives.

[Rachel Rainbolt]

Yeah, I think it's so funny because I think this really ties into like a key theme of every episode of this podcast is essentially that like those hard moments are the work. Like that is, that is the work. Like, it's like, yeah, you, you go to the park and if your kid is having a hard moment, you go all in. Like you sit down right there and you just sit in it with them and give them what they need to learn how to, you know, feel their feelings and validate their experience and how, like how to collaborate with another person and how to move. Like, I don't really care who walks away With. With the sand pail. But, like, that. That work is, like, that is why kids have parents. This is why we're here. This. These are the lessons that they need to learn. And all that same stuff is true of their relationship with technology, too. Like, if transitioning away from it is hard, that's when we get curious about, oh, I'm noticing this. This. This look in your body when you're having that experience. Tell me about it. What's going on inside you? How's that feeling? What are some ideas you have? Could we try something different? What things should we try? When should we re and check and see how that went? Like that. Whether you're talking about going to a playground or technology, like, that right there is the work. And we can do that with tech. Exactly.

[Ash Brandon]

And frankly, when we do do it with tech, we're sending the message to our kids that, like, hey, your interest in this is a valid thing.

[Rachel Rainbolt]

Yeah, Right.

[Ash Brandon]

Because if. If all we say is, like I said, turn it off. You know, if we're kind of dismissive or we're kind of blaming of the screen, then we're also kind of sending this message that, like, the feelings that are coming up with this are not treated with the same sort of validity and processing as when they come up with other things. And often the feelings that come up with screens are really heightened and really intense because they are situations in which our kids have invested a lot of effort and time, and they feel that emotional investment. So those feelings are really real and really intense. So we, frankly, they give us the opportunity to work through some feelings that are really difficult that might not come up in other parts of their lives. And, yes, that feels harder as a parent, because it might not be something we understand, or we might be like, whoa, like, I thought this was giving me a break. Now I have to sit here like, this isn't what I would. This is not why I said yes to the iPad.

[Rachel Rainbolt]

Right.

[Ash Brandon]

But when we're navigating through those feelings, we're not only sending the message of like, hey, it's all right that you like this. We're also helping them practice through those really hard feelings. And that also applies outside of screens. And they can regulate through these really heightened emotions. Well, guess what? They can apply that elsewhere. So it is mutually beneficial to treat it as something that we can kind of plan around.

[Rachel Rainbolt]

Okay, so technology is filling in some systemic gaps, and sometimes the question is less about the effects on the individual child and more about the net benefit for the family, which includes said child. Why Might we consciously choose to give our kids screens to meet our personal or larger family needs as often under supported parents?

[Ash Brandon]

So I would say that we are actually probably choosing to do this whether or not we are doing so consciously. And this is, you know, this is my other or one of my other kind of soapbox issues is that we really like, we like to blame screens. I think we partially blame screens because it's easy. They are a scapegoat that can't fight back. You know, screens cannot as a whole stand up and defend themselves. And we have a lot of anti screen rhetoric. So if anyone wants to defend it, then it's kind of like you're taking that on as a, as an issue and then everything gets attributed to you, right? Then you're having to defend it. That doesn't feel good as a parent to defend your parenting for whatever reason. So my kind of reframe of like our use of screens is, you know, if we really feel that screens are overused, and I'm not saying that they aren't right, There are times that I would say that they're overused. If we are really concerned about an overuse of screens, then what we actually need to focus on are the systemic gaps and inequalities that necessitate those use of screens in the first place. Like that's where our focus needs to be. And it's a heck of a lot easier to blame a screen. Right? Like screens. Screens can't go to Congress. They can't live, they can't talk to their lawmakers. They can't, they can't. We can just punch at them all the time, right? It's a lot harder to say, hey, so you know, why don't we have paid parental leave? Why don't we have universal or very subsidized, you know, preschool or Head Start or pre K? Why is it that most families need to have two paid income earners and therefore they can't necessarily have a stay at home caregiver? Or if we do have a stay at home caregiver, they might be so, you know, burdened by the work they're doing in the home, that they don't have any extra time and they can't fulfill their needs and something has to give. And so screens end up being the thing that fills that gap all the time.

[Rachel Rainbolt]

Right.

[Ash Brandon]

When a parent needs to take a shower and they can't afford, you know, other childcare and their other caregiver is working another shift, you know, screens have to fill in when I don't have access to childcare and I'm trying to work from home or I have to take a meeting, like screens have to fill in. And even in school settings we're seeing a lot of effects of this now. And I'll sometimes hear people complain about the amount their child might access screens in a school setting. And it's the same idea when we have a teacher shortage. When teachers aren't paid equitably enough to actually fulfill these roles, when we have student to teacher ratios that are some of the highest that we've seen in a long time, or we lack paraprofessionals, well, then we have to provide differentiated education somehow. And when we're also gearing all of our focus toward large stakes standardized testing and showing continual improvement, then we're also needing to find ways of differentiating instruction to meet those. And that ends up often taking the form of technology. So it's filling in a lot of these gaps that I would not say are good. Like it's not good. We have those gaps. We shouldn't have those gaps. But. But the way we fix that is to fix the gaps. Yeah, it's not to blame. Like one of the sole things we found that can help those gaps. Right. That's not going to do anyone any good. All it does is make parents feel bad.

[Rachel Rainbolt]

Yes. Yeah. It's like we have this moral judgment on screen use and then parents find that it actually meets this need that they're having and then they feel terribly guilty because there's that like moral kind of based on this boogeyman esque, like research says it's bad, even though when we dig under it we can't, like there's no boogeyman there. We can't really find.

[Ash Brandon]

Right.

[Rachel Rainbolt]

So instead let's focus on like what is the need? And then what are more like meta ways that we can work to address those needs. So if you do think this is a problem, like maybe focus your energy there as opposed to yelling at parents whose kid is on an iPad in a restaurant.

[Ash Brandon]

Right. And because, you know, because of the rhetoric and how badly many parents feel about using a screen, I can assure you that most parents who are using them already feel bad. We don't need to make them feel worse. And if that worked, we've been doing that, that's been our M.O. for decades. If that really did work, then we would have seen it work by now. And it's not going to because again, parents are not just handing out screens willy nilly because they want to bother people. It's because they're lacking these supports and they have to. They have to meet those needs in some way.

[Rachel Rainbolt]

Yes, absolutely. Like, I'll share a personal example the other day, because we homeschool and so I'm with my. Like, I have. My youngest is 10 and I had been with him all day, like, focused attention. He had been in a very talkative space that day from, like the moment his eyes opened till the moment they closed. We were engaged in deep, meaningful, intense conversation. And at one point, I took a break to go out to dinner and my other kids were doing other things. It was just my husband and my kid and I fully gave him the iPad while we were sitting there eating dinner. And I felt zero guilt about it at all whatsoever. But I just, I've heard other parents, like, you know, of course their kids on a screen. They can't sit there and have a conversation with them. Like, no, I've spent like 20 hours in conversation and this is my chance to talk to a grownup. And it's like, definitely worth it. And there's not even necessarily a problem in that. My day was lovely and yet this was the right choice for our family, and I felt great about it.

[Ash Brandon]

I also think sometimes we're just so. We hold kids to this weirdly high standard that we don't necessarily hold ourselves to. Like, if we were talking to a colleague and our colleague was like, oh, I was just so tired when I got home, I just laid down on the couch and watched four hours of Netflix. Like, we would never be like, well, what else could you have been doing with that time?

[Rachel Rainbolt]

I'm concerned about your brain.

[Ash Brandon]

Right. Well, what were you watching? Was it good? Was it good quality? How long were the shot lengths? Like, could you imagine? But then with the kid, we're somehow like, put that down. We're holding them to this really unreasonable standard. And, you know, along with the idea of, like, screens is kind of a nerd. The other thing I try to say is, like, it's okay to just like them.

[Rachel Rainbolt]

Yeah.

[Ash Brandon]

Like, it's okay to enjoy them. Like, they are enjoyable. There are many ways that they can be enjoyable. And it's okay to just play them because you like them.

[Rachel Rainbolt]

Yes. If I had a dollar for every time I had this, this conversation. Because I'm kind of like a nature loving hippie. That's kind of my Persona and I like to watch tv. Like, the two are not mutually exclusive. I can fully embrace technology. Like, right now, you and I are recording this podcast episode. So through all kinds of technology, And I can like also love going for a hike with my kids who are like unschooled largely in nature. And like just the two can coexist and even complement each other. They're not mutually exclusive.

[Ash Brandon]

Yes. Yeah. And actually like the. So I really enjoy hiking, but I enjoy hiking so much more after I've played certain video games. And this is something that comes up a lot with kids is like, we can really, when we view games and screens as more neutral, then we suddenly feel like we have permission to draw on them. And so, you know, if, if our child, like, for me it's playing Zelda Breath of the Wild, which is really exploratory game. And you can like scale mountains and like, and you're climbing up a mountain and you find this cool little lake. And like the first time that I was climbing a mountain and saw something like that in real life, my first thought was, oh my gosh, it's just like Breath of the Wild.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

And.

[Ash Brandon]

And for me it was a cool connection. And then part of me thought, you know, there are some kids who would say that and their adult would be like, all you can think about is video games. We're out in real life, we're in nature, and this is all you can think about. And it's like, right. Cause they're conceptualizing and connecting this thing to something they care about.

[Rachel Rainbolt]

Yes.

[Ash Brandon]

And if they had said, for example, oh, this reminds me of this scene in a book, would that adult say, we're out here hiking and all you can think about is a book?

[Rachel Rainbolt]

Like, yes.

[Ash Brandon]

My guess is probably not, because we see that connection as a good one. And when they make that same connection to a video game, which is more experiential. Right. Is probably helping allowing them to problem solve more than reading a book. Right?

[Rachel Rainbolt]

Yes.

[Ash Brandon]

It's getting them to be more involved, but somehow that connection is bad. So when we again, we kind of release ourselves of this like moral feeling that we have to associate with it, suddenly it becomes a resource.

[Rachel Rainbolt]

Yeah. Yes. Oh my gosh. Okay, so what's the right amount? Like, at what point does it become too much?

[Ash Brandon]

So I can give the, you know, the research based answer here because we do actually have some research in this area. My short answer, however, is the right amount is an amount that is beneficial to everyone in a family. And I bring this up a lot because we, once again, we are thinking about our kids. We don't want to screw up our kids. I totally get that. I think that's wonderful. And what gets missing in that is that everyone else in a family gets to count too, and should count. So sometimes I'll have parents say something like, well, my child plays this game, and even if they only play for 20 minutes, they get so upset and, you know, then it's. They have a big meltdown when it's time to turn it off. And to that I would say, I'm not sure that that's benefiting everyone anymore. And so maybe that's not a benefit to you, and maybe it's not amount. Maybe it's timing, maybe it's time of day. Maybe they're hungry, maybe they're already dysregulated. Maybe it's the content. That's where we go back to that problem solving and really think, okay, is this serving everyone? And if it's not, what are we going to try? There are many times where I kind of temperature check my child before we start video games. And having been around my kid and watched them play games and observe which ones kind of are more escalating and less escalating. If my kid brings up a couple of games is what they want to play, and they're already kind of seemingly on edge, I step in and say, like, you know, I'm noticing you seem to have a lot of energy right now. Is this. Do you think this game is a good fit for you? And that's again, really important to talk about. Like, we want them to notice that these things, we want them to be able to say, oh, wow, like, I don't think I should play video games right now. I think I should go for a walk because I'm feeling. My body is just feeling so tense and nervous and I need to get out this energy. If we want them to be able to do that one day, we have to help them recognize that along the way and use it as a learning opportunity.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

Yeah.

[Rachel Rainbolt]

Yeah. Is this a value? Like my kids have heard me say a million times, like, is this a value add for our family? So that is true. If we're talking about like a toy, like, if there's one toy that just keeps getting used in this way that is like a, you know, taking away from our peace and joy, like, then we just won't have it in the house anymore, you know? Whereas, like, does this. Is this a value add for our family? And that helps us. That helps me at least to figure out the, like, how much is the right amount.

[Ash Brandon]

Yeah. But to bring in just the research side for anyone who's curious about it, what we see in the research in terms of looking at negative outcomes. And this is not necessarily in terms of like behavior, in terms of like aggression, but more about mental health outcomes. We start to see negative effects align with what is called like problematic play. And that one of the factors for that is playing on average, depending on the study, of four or more hours per day, which is a lot. I think most families would hear that and think, oh, that's probably more than most people would think in terms of how much is too much. And a study that just came out that was looking more at cognitive impacts that purported to find some positive cognitive impacts of video gameplay. It was looking at excessive play and three or more hours a day in nine and ten year olds. And one of the more interesting findings I thought they found was that they didn't find, they didn't find negative outcomes in behavior or mental health when comparing them with kids who never play games. There is some distinction there because actually kids who never play games and kids who play excessively tend to have the worst outcomes. Kids who play moderately tend to have the best outcomes. So on the one hand, comparing kids who never play and kids who excessively play, actually you're comparing two groups who tend to perform worse anyway.

[Rachel Rainbolt]

Interesting.

[Ash Brandon]

But when we look at the data of things like suicidality, depression, overall feelings of, you know, life satisfaction, the kids who perform best on those are kids who play a quote unquote moderate amount per day, which tends to be between one and three or one and four hours per day. The kids who perform worse are the ones who never play games and the ones who play excessively.

[Rachel Rainbolt]

I think this reminds me too, the thing you said earlier about not to confuse correlation with causation, because in part, part of the reason why a lot of people who play excessively, like, to their detriment, play excessively because they don't have these, like, meaningful relationships or these other, you know, it's sort of like a coping strateg for, you know, severe crippling anxiety that they're not addressing or like whatever the other things are that are sort of like that. That is, they're trying to turn to that to satisfy.

[Ash Brandon]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Rachel Rainbolt]

Yeah. Okay. So parents sometimes come to me concerned about the amounts of technology used in their families. And before we pull back on any technology, we build up other options. So we want to get curious about what the person's getting from technology and get creative and supportive in providing alternatives. You've encouraged parents to ask themselves, can this screen time be reason replaced by something else? What kinds of replacements have you seen be successful or helpful?

[Ash Brandon]

So I'm glad you brought up this phrasing because a popular phrasing is sometimes, what is this screen replacing? And I actually kind of take umbrage with this phrasing because if we're coming from a place where we see video games as not as not a good use of time, then the answer is something. Video games are always like, by definition, anything you're doing is replacing something else. Yeah, right. Like I could be writing an email right now, but there's literally something is always replacing something else. So if you're coming from a place of feeling guilt about screens, then saying like, well, just ask yourself what this is replacing, you're gonna think of everything. Yeah, right. Like, well, we could have gone outside one more time, we could be reading another book, we could be doing. And like, and you're gonna kind of run yourself through that litany. And so instead I say, can I reasonably replace this with something else? Because sometimes the answer really is no. Like, you know, if I'm in a situation where like, something like this, like I have to be in a meeting, I have to be undisturbed, I have to know that I can be in a room by myself for a certain amount of time, then yeah, a screen might be the good thing for that. Because if I know my child and know that they are going to stay occupied and safe and contained and self sufficient with a screen, then yeah, that might be the best tool for that job. So there might be other times, you know, if I need to make dinner, maybe I can, you know, turn on the radio and have music playing and my child can be with me in the kitchen and have a dance party, or maybe I can pull up a stool and they can help me make dinner or quote, unquote, help me make dinner. You know, maybe we're giving them some ingredients, maybe we're putting a coloring page at the counter and they're in there, you know, occupying the space with us. So just thinking about what can I swap? You know, what can I try and swap in and what are other things that, you know, my child maybe takes an interest in or naturally enjoys? You know, if I know my child really enjoys playing with certain kinds of activities or toys and maybe I bring those up as things, things to do. Like, hey, I'm going to be in here making dinner. Why don't you, you know, why don't you build a track for your cars or whatever that we know is kind of going to be an easy thing for them? Because also you can always go to a screen, right? Like, if if you're trying to use screens less, I would say, you know, pick one thing. Pick one thing. You think, okay, this is something I think we can replace with something else and try it. And, you know, the worst thing that can happen is you go back to the screen.

[Rachel Rainbolt]

Yeah, absolutely. I think, like, having that. That perspective of, like, what is the need that this is filling? And is there any other way, any other thing that I could bring in or access I could open up that could help to address this need? So whether we're talking about, like, is there, like, a social skills program? I can roll my. Kidding. Or is there, you know, like you said, like, can we play? Can we sing songs together while we cook dinner? Like, whatever. Whatever the need is that you're having in that moment, think about what you can do to replace it. I think I remember reading in Peter Gray's Free to Learn, a study that talked about, like, if kids have free and open access to the outdoors and peers, like, the screen, use, like, plummets sort of naturally, which. Like, we actually live on this really sweet island that we moved to a few months ago, and my kid basically is just running around the island with his friends all day long, which is fabulous. And today it's freezing and pouring, and so he's inside on the iPad. Yeah, like, I would. That sounds a bit more appealing to me too, you know, than running her outside in the freezing rain. So, like, think. I think in terms of, like, yes, providing, but also think about, like, access. Like, a lot of families kind of limit their kids access to a lot of things, like, if they can't go outside without supervision. And of course, you know, what's safe, that safety has to come first. But think about what you can in terms of materials or people or nature. Like, what can you give them greater access to on their own? Okay, with food, parents provide, kids decide. Parents kind of choose what food is on offer and when it's available, and kids choose which of the options to consume and how much from what is available. That's this, like, division of responsibility concept. And with technology, it can be similarly helpful to get clear on the division of responsibility, lest we fall into power struggles. So what do you see as the division of responsibility with technology?

[Ash Brandon]

So, in my opinion, when it comes to this, and this is a framework I think is just so applicable to tech, because often I will hear from parents like, well, my child gets so upset, and when it's time to turn things off, and all I can think is, well, yeah, that's their job. And so the division of responsibility that I would see is, you know, we decide when. When technology is available and often what kind of content and that technology is available. And then our kids decide before both what to do within that time, and they also get to decide how to feel about it. And I know that's really hard because I think as parents, again, especially when we're coming from a place of maybe not seeing screens as having value, we see ourselves as doing this tremendous favor when we give screen access. Like, they should be very grateful for it, Right? And then when it's time to turn it off, I think our instinct is to be like. Like, you're complaining that we're turning it off. You should be so lucky as to have this. Right. We take this kind of offense to it. And again, it's something they enjoy. It's very hard to stop things we enjoy. And so framing it as, you know, it's their job to have a feeling about this also helps, I think, or at least helps me personally remind myself that, oh, yeah, they're just. They're fulfilling their end of. They're fulfilling their responsibility here. And, you know, part of my job is to hold that boundary and to then maybe help them through that feeling so that they're also learning, hey, you know, I'm allowed to have this feeling. And my adult is still going to decide when this is available. Like, there's that they're doing their job, too. Same thing with food. You know, if our child complains about what we're serving for dinner and division of responsibility, then we might say, that's fine. You don't have to eat that. And we are not necessarily going to blame them or attribute. We're not going to blame the broccoli because they don't want to eat it. We're just going to say, oh, that's all right. That's fine. You don't have to eat that. And maybe they do, and maybe they don't, and maybe they complain. We're like, all right, I hear you. You don't want the broccoli today. And it can be the same deal. I know it's so hard. You don't want to stop playing Mario Kart. I get it. And screen time's over. Do you want to turn it off or should I? And a lot of that's easier said than done, right? Because we would love for that to happen and have our child go, o, okay, and then turn it off. And that's not always how it goes. And part of getting to that as an eventual goal is sticking to that division and sticking to that adherence to those boundaries and being there to help manage those feelings that arise.

[Rachel Rainbolt]

Yeah, like I try to think of our technological playscape in the same context or as in the same way that I think of like the physical playscape. So like I choose what goes in there and I, and I make those choices based on like, like my intimate knowledge of this unique human and what their needs are and what their preferences are and what they love and you know, what they don't and all of that. And so I kind of get to choose what comes in. And it's the same with the iPad. So like my 10 year old doesn't have YouTube on his iPad. He doesn't, he's never had it on his iPad where my teenagers do at this point. It's, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with YouTube. I just noticed like that for this kid, like it was, it was not, he was not enjoying it. It was like he, he was, there was like no benefit and lots of like negative from it. So it's just not in his playscape. Just we kind of as parents get to choose what we think, what, what we want to bring in and like plant in their garden for them to play with. And that's okay.

[Ash Brandon]

I like that analogy.

[Rachel Rainbolt]

Okay. For parents who struggle to see the value of video games, can you tell us what benefits kids are gaining from video gameplay? And just liking it is a benefit.

[Ash Brandon]

Right, Right. You know, my sort of like anti capitalist streak wants to say like not everything has to have some sort of productive benefits. We can just do things because we like them and maybe because they just let us decompress. But I would really challenge parents if you don't, if you've never kind of like sat and really observed your child when they're playing a game, I would really challenge you to do that because I think that it's would be incredibly eye opening and really like almost as if you were going to like take notes like even, even mentally just think about like okay, what are they doing? And really ask like how did they know to do that? And now what are they doing and how do they know to do that? Because I think what you'll end up noticing is that a lot of what kids find appealing about video games is that they have an immense feeling of control through them. So video games are very intrinsically motivating. And intrinsic motivation has three underlying factors. That is autonomy, competence and relatedness. And video games in one way or the other make us generally feel all three of Those things. And actually everything we enjoy doing intrinsically makes us feel those things. Otherwise we wouldn't want to do it.

[Rachel Rainbolt]

Yes.

[Ash Brandon]

So if I am playing a video game and I am working at a level and I am trying so hard and I'm trying to beat this boss and I just keep dying and I keep going and I keep. And I'm constantly evaluating, right? I might be thinking, oh, I pressed the button too early. Next time it needs to be later. Oh, I need to jump higher. Oh, I need to move over here. Oh, I need to dodge this. And they're not going to verbalize this, but it's absolutely going on. And so when we observe, we might even be able to say like, oh, wow, I noticed this time you went over there and maybe we're not doing that in the moment because it might be distracting, but maybe at the dinner table or the drive to school, it's like, hey, I noticed you were trying to, to defeat that boss and like you tried something really different the next time. Why'd you do that? What were you thinking? Because that gives us a ton of insight too, into their thought process. And again, when we're noticing these things, we can then make the connection for our kids. But, oh, so you saw that they were going to throw something at you and then you decided to go the other way. So you decided to try something new. Like we can just kind of help them label and really figure out what it is they're doing. So you were evaluating, you were doing this, you were analyzing. We can really kind of draw those comparisons for them. And when it comes to control, that's a huge part of video games because in different ways, depending on the game, they really give our kids a feeling of control, which from a motivation perspective, we call autonomy. And autonomy is really about this sense of control being the one to decide what to do, where to go again within a space, deciding like, well, I'm going to go over here or I'm going to go talk to this character or I'm going to spend my whole time trying to do this. And we talked earlier about the division of responsibility and I think when I say that part of the kids responsibility is deciding what to do within their technology access, I really do mean that because when we sometimes I think we'll look at our kid playing something and think like, well, they're not doing it right or like, oh, they're wasting their time because they're just, you know, wandering around and that's not a good use of their time, but it's their Time. Right. And we don't really know what they're up to over there. They could be doing something really cool, my kid, for whatever reason. Like, they're gonna be a weird speedrunner one day, I'm pretty sure, because they like to play these very, like, intense car simulators. And they will do everything in their power to break the game. And I'm not even sure that's what they know they're doing, but it's like, they will try to find the edge of the map or they'll try to. Like, they'll try to get their car to clip through the bottom and see what happens. And they've been doing this since they were four. Like, since we put a controller in their hands. And they are not a kid who does that in real life, thank goodness. Like, they're not. They are not a huge boundary pusher with things in real life. You know, they only within really safe things. So I look at that and think, okay, this is their experiment area. Yeah, Right. Like, they know not to see what's gonna happen if they throw the baseball at the window in real life. So thank goodness they have a place where they can see what's gonna happen.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

Right.

[Ash Brandon]

It's this safe experimentation. And if I come in and go, like, no, no, no, no, no. That's not what you're supposed to be doing. You're supposed to be over there. Then I'm. That's not my responsibility. Right. Like, I'm overstepping. And then I have to take a step back and really think, like, what is it that is so motivating about this? And I had to do that with my own child. And a lot of times it's just. They're getting to see what happens instead

[Rachel Rainbolt]

of judgment, like, show up with curiosity. And we won't always know, like, what they're getting out of it. For example, there's some new study that has shown that kids that had really traumatic childhoods loved to watch very formulaic sitcoms or crime television shows because it's, like, therapeutic to see, like, the good guys win every time and you know exactly how it's going to end. And that helps to make it so that you could thrive in your real world despite all of the chaos, because you had this sort of safe harbor of, like, predictability. So, like, there are things like that that we. We won't even always know what they're getting out of it, but they're. If they're doing it, they're probably meeting some need with it and getting some benefit from it.

[Ash Brandon]

Right.

[Rachel Rainbolt]

Okay. How can we support kids with technology when frustration arises? Like your magical question, what have you already tried?

[Ash Brandon]

Yeah. So if there's any legacy I have in the Internet, I think it's going to be these two phrases that I use that are obviously, I didn't intend these phrases, obviously, but they are, where have you already looked and what have you already tried? And I joke that people are using these on their spouses more than on their children, but whatever, it works with anyone.

[Rachel Rainbolt]

Accurate.

[Ash Brandon]

And both of these are statements that work incredibly well with video games because they. And kids actually do this naturally with video games because if they're frustrated and they're like, oh, I don't know what to do, they're not actually expecting you to know necessarily, because we rarely know. Right. But we can kind of redirect them and say like, well, what have you tried? Right. And sometimes parents will say, you know, some parents who maybe do know the game better or their child is really new to the game and will express frustration and say, like, do this for me. And I kind of say, hey, like, you can do whatever you want, but for me, I kind of ask, okay, well, what are you trying to do? Right, so then that's design. That's end design thinking, right? You're saying, what's the goal? Essentially? Okay, what is it you're trying to do? Okay, what have you already tried? So now we're thinking about what we've already done. And then I just do a lot of modeling of like, okay, what does this do? What does this button do? What's over there? Have you tried this? Just start. I just start modeling my own thought process of like, what if you did this? What do you think? What do you think the boss's weakness is? What else? Where could we check for this information? Because oftentimes there's information in the game, like maps, glossaries, you know, like an index of all the buttons and what they do. So it's a really great way of modeling, like how to find information and kind of that executive functioning skill of knowing what to do when you get stuck. Like, what can you do when you get stuck? And if we're helping our kid know, like, oh, if I forget what move to do in a controller, I can hit start and I can look at my controls. Then again, we can draw that parallel if they're doing an academic task and we can say, if you get stuck, the instructions are right here.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

Right.

[Ash Brandon]

And reminding them that same kind of thing. So again, it really can be useful as a way of bridging. Those skills from games to something else. But with frustration in general, I try to treat it like any other frustration. So if a child is showing a lot of frustration with the game, I use a lot of the same language I do if they're showing frustration with the toy or again at the playground or with someone else. So I use a lot of validating language. A lot of stuff like, oh, you didn't want that to happen. Like, oh, you're so frustrated because you lost. You didn't want to get third place, you wanted to get first place. And a lot of that same language ends up being really helpful. And one of the things I think we try to do as an attempt to mitigate feelings is we might say, like, oh, it's fine, like, it's just a game. And I think if anything, that is probably the opposite of what a lot of kids want to hear, because it is, yes, it is a game. But the emotions and the effort that went into it are 100% as real in the game as they would be in real life. If a kid missed a soccer goal in real life, we would probably be like, oh, you were trying so hard, you missed that kick. But if they missed the goal in FIFA soccer on the PlayStation, then we're like, ah, it's fine. But they're both win. They're both losing. Right? They're both missing the goal. They're both these feelings of, oh, I was putting in work, I'm trying so hard. And that is going to feel similarly disappointing. So finding ways of validating those feelings and providing ways of. Of regulating, calming, modeling that feeling is incredibly helpful. There are definitely times where I have to say, like, hey, you're upset. You didn't want this to happen. We're gonna pause the game now and let's choose something you'd like to do to calm down.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

Right.

[Ash Brandon]

And sometimes our kids don't wanna do that. And again, if I want my kid to be able to stop one day and not throw the controller and break their tv, then I have to be willing to step in and okay the feeling. And we're gonna still take time to address the behavior.

[Rachel Rainbolt]

Yeah, yeah. There's this great, like, flipped dynamic of competence often, too, in video games where, like, our kids will often they'll know more about the game than we do, which is, like, great, because there are, like, not many arenas in life that are like that. And so to bring that curiosity of. Of asking those kinds of questions, like, oh, well, what have you tried? Well, what happens if you go here, like, In a way that's genuine because you don't know, like that's just, that's gold. I love that dynamic with games with my kids.

[Ash Brandon]

And often like this happens a lot because I work in education. This happens a lot with students. When I'm trying to connect with students and they do some hobby that I have no idea about. And it's like, well, how would you connect if a kid told you that they played some sport you've never heard of before? Right. It's we, we would do the same thing. So if a kid tells me that they play lacrosse, like I, I know nothing about lacrosse, but I could say, oh, okay, what team are you on? When do you practice? When's your next game? What position do you play? How did it go? I can still, you know, I can ask these big general questions and what that's still showing is I want to know. Right? I want you to share this with me. So it's the same thing with our kids in games. And even as a gaming literate person, most of the time when my child is playing games, my response is like, oh, oh, okay. Oh, you know, it's a lot of this because I'm making dinner, like I'm doing stuff.

[Rachel Rainbolt]

Yes.

[Ash Brandon]

So a lot of times it's like, mom, watch. Oh, okay. You know, it's big open ended stuff. But I'm still trying to keep the conversation open. And later I can say, so what were you trying to do today? And make it that open ended topic.

[Rachel Rainbolt]

Like you said, those kinds of questions, like they help them work through the frustrations too because like my kids, kids sail and I, and I'm not a competitive sailboat racer like they are. And so they can like come off of a, out of a hard regatta, out of a hard race. And I can ask questions like, oh, like what did you do that worked well? Or I'm noticing like some frustration. Did, did you try something and it didn't work out the way you thought it? From a place of sincerity because like I don't know. And that helps them like talk through and figure that out. Okay. My favorite question that you ask is how will you know when you're done? Because that off ramp of exiting games is often the most challenging time. So how does that question help?

[Ash Brandon]

Yeah, so another one of these big open questions which is also frankly an executive functioning skill.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

Yes, it is.

[Ash Brandon]

Right along with what have you already tried and where have you already looked? How will you know when you're done? This is really helpful for kids who like open ended or Open world games. So things that don't have a very set prescribed structure. So games like Minecraft, where it's just this big sandbox. It's the word we have for these games or even games that might kind of have some leveled structure or might have a time component, but maybe we can't adhere to that. So sometimes my child will be playing a game that has a timer, but we just don't have enough time. So we will say, how will you know when you're done? Or we'll kind of flip it because my child's pretty young, so we'll sometimes say like, like what will your last thing be? What is the last thing you're going to do?

[Rachel Rainbolt]

Yeah.

[Ash Brandon]

And by now they just know if we say choose your last thing, they know it's like, okay.

[Rachel Rainbolt]

Which I also say at the park. I say the same thing at the place. Exactly.

[Ash Brandon]

So how will you know when you're done? Is a wonderful phrase for anyone who has a hard time envisioning a stopping place in anything. I use this phrase a lot with students and it's not in video games. It's often like we're doing a multi day project and you know, class time is ending and so it's like, okay, how will you know when you're done today? You know, when are you gonna, what's your stopping point going to be today? Or even kids. Sometimes I see this with kids who are perfectionists, who can go, go, go, go, go, go, go. And it's never done, done. Right. Yeah. So we can say, okay, so at, at some point we're going to have to stop working on this. How will you know when you're done? What will a finished product look like?

[Rachel Rainbolt]

Yeah, I was that kid.

[Ash Brandon]

Yeah. Yeah. And that's really hard. And I have to say this to myself like, yeah, you know, if I get into one of those projects where it's suddenly like things are getting worse before they're getting better, you know? Yeah. And I know it's not going to get done today. I have to ask myself, okay, how will I know I'm done for today? Yeah. And then I can really verbalize, okay, when, when I've, you know, when I've made sure there's a clear path on the floor or whatever of my project, I know I'm done. And so giving kids that kind of off ramp of helping them envision. Oh, I do have a way of stopping right now because I can say like, oh, I'll know when I'm done. When I've, you know, Mined this last thing I need. Okay, great, you're gonna mine one more of this and then you will be done. And then we're kind of making it clear to them like, okay, I heard you. And also like, we've, we've chosen a stopping place now and then we can kind of help them then adhere to that. And especially with games that don't have a lot of set structure, that can be helpful. But even with games that do have a lot of set structure, it can be helpful like, hey, you have 10 more minutes. How do you know you're gonna be done today? When will you be like, what's the last thing you're going to do? And they might say, I'm going to play this last level.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

Yeah.

[Ash Brandon]

And even that, and even within that, we could say, okay, you have two more minutes. Will you be able to finish that level? So that we're getting them to kind of think about that and conceptualize that, oh, you won't be able to finish that level. Okay, so what's the last thing you're going to do?

[Rachel Rainbolt]

Yes. I love it.

[Ash Brandon]

It's once again a really great way of making it clear, like, we can't just, we're not just moving the goalposts. Right. We're not just saying, I'll know what I'm done when I'm done. Yeah, we're. We're still making it clear. No, we're still the ones who decide when this is over. It's still going to be over. And you have some agency in kind of planning that, that exit strategy.

[Rachel Rainbolt]

Yes. Oh, I love it. Okay, before I dive into where people can find you, I just want to add, speaking to your capitalist, you know, value judgment earlier, that my husband has a master's degree in video game design and production. And so like, you know, for all the. I like to sometimes sprinkle that in when in conversations about screens because while we might be judging certain interests as, you know, valuable based on what our capitalist society says is valuable and not like my husband, like his whole career is in video game design and production. So he like financially supports, you know, can financially support his family, like with that, with those skills and that experience and that interest. So I just want to like throw that out there if that sets any parents minds at ease.

[Ash Brandon]

Awesome.

[Rachel Rainbolt]

Okay, so the show notes can be [e-mail] podcast81 where you can also subscribe and get future show notes sent right to your inbox. So Ash, where can people find you? What are your favorite resources to send people to how can we stay in touch?

[Ash Brandon]

So you can find me on Instagram, hegamereducator, and I also have a website, thegamereducator.com I try to just meet the needs of what people need in that space. So you're gonna find tons of resources there, lots of really good highlights. If you're ever looking for a place you're really curious about, like, is this a good thing for my kid? What is this game like? And you don't feel like you have the resources to maybe try it yourself? A couple of good resources for that. One is common, common sense media. They tend to be a little bit more on the conservative side. Not in terms of politics, just in terms of, like, what they allow. But I find that to be helpful because you can. You can really see what parents say, you can see what kids say, and it gives a really good breakdown into the kinds of content that are in games.

[Rachel Rainbolt]

I've used that. I found it helpful.

[Ash Brandon]

Yeah. Another good one, frankly, is to just look up some gameplay footage on YouTube. Like, now that we live in the age of YouTube. YouTube, it's an incredibly good way to just see what this content is like before, you know, handing it over to your kid. So those are some really good ways of kind of figuring that stuff out without just saying yes and potentially getting yourself in a situation you're not happy with.

[Rachel Rainbolt]

Yes.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

Love it.

[Rachel Rainbolt]

Okay. Ash, thank you so much for joining me for this conversation. I know, like, of course, screens and technology, it's one of those things we get asked about all the time and so many parents are worried about. So hopefully you've been able to help set a lot of minds at ease and give a lot of tools and strategies. I know I thoroughly enjoyed the conversation, so thank you so very much.

[Ash Brandon]

You're so welcome. Thank you so much for having me, and I really hope it was helpful.