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- [00:00]
Dan Savage
You're listening to the Savage Lovecast, Dan Savage's sex and relationship show for grown ups. If you're under 18. Get out of here, youngin.
- [00:09]
If you're stuck in a relationship quandary, or if you're looking for sexual harmony, well, there's nothing you can't ask on the Savage Lovecast. Every time I think I finally manage to kill this monster, every time I think I manage to drive that motherfucking stake through its motherfucking heart, its hand pushes through the dirt and it crawls out of its grave like Michael Myers or Freddy Krueger or Chucky. It refuses to die. It can't be killed. It just keeps coming. This monster does more damage to monogamous relationships than a million poly memoirs and ever could, and yet there is no moral panic about it. This monster does to monogamous relationships what killers in slasher films do to sexually active teenagers. It tears them apart. I am talking, of course, about micro cheating, not micro cheating itself, which isn't actually cheating. Cheating is cheating. Micro cheating is bullshit. I'm talking about the idea of micro cheating. The concept, the meme. This time it's the Atlantic that looked in the mirror and said, I believe in the ghost of Meriworth's micro Che boyfriend Tim, three times, causing the monster to reappear. Now, the Atlantic is a fine publication. I'm a subscriber. It's home to most of my favorite writers. But I don't understand how they could publish a piece about micro cheating under the headline the New Infidelity? Were the Atlantic's fact checkers all stuck in long lines at the airport last week? Because there's nothing new about micro cheating. George W. Bush was still President of the United States when we first started talking about micro cheating. George W. Bush, you know, the president formerly known as the worst president of our lifetimes. If you were lucky to die in the fall of 2016, that statement is true. George W. Bush was the worst president of your lifetime. But if you lived, and if you can hear the sound of my voice right now, we know today there was a worser president coming. I'm actually reluctant to call our current president the worst president of our lifetimes because given what we've been through, that seems jinxy. We said that about George W. Bush, and we were wrong things. And presidents, as we've learned, can always get worse. Anyway, back to my main rant. We've been talking about this thing, micro cheating for decades. There's nothing new about the idea of micro cheating. So calling it new is incorrect, just as incorrect as calling it new cheating. Zhou Yu, who wrote the story about microinfidelities for the Atlantic, is a student at Harvard without access to Google, it seems, and Yu struggles to define microinfidelity at the start of the piece before recycling a quote from a couple's therapist who defined it as basically anything a deeply insecure person might want it to be. A glance, a laugh, non sexual touching that's too familiar or too intimate to catch. Micro cheaters Yu rides. People often hunt online for indiscretions, scrolling through the entire list of accounts their partner follows, or watching for a partner single, like on another person's Instagram post. And this insanity, as Yu correctly notes, is enabled by social media. In the past, people's secret desires tended to remain hidden, yu writes. You couldn't prove that your partner had gazed longingly after someone else or had left their hand for a beat too long on another person's shoulder shoulder. But now every like every follow every text is there on your partner's phone. The whole digital dossier. All right, I sometimes get self conscious about repeating myself, but I'm gonna have to read this into the record again because I really do want people in monogamous relationships to be happy and I want to see their relationships succeed. Are you listening? Monogamous people? A monogamous commitment means your partner doesn't sleep with other people. It doesn't mean they don't want to. They do and so do you. And if you go looking for evidence your partner wants to sleep with other people, you will find it. I posted that to Twitter when I was feeling weak. Trying to post less to social media these days generally, and to Twitter in particular. And the monogamous people I was trying to help, man, they were not having it said trash panda. Married 18 years and can honestly say I've never wanted to have sex with other people. Do I think other people are attractive? Of course I do. That doesn't mean I want to sleep with them, says Nigel. You might fantasize or imagine a scenario where you're with someone else, but it doesn't mean you want to act on it, says Ginerva. It's obvious he that would be me. Dan Savage. It's obviously he has never really been in love. People who are in love may notice other people are attractive, but they're not actually attracted to them, meaning they don't want to sleep with them because they only want the person they're in love with. All right, you guys. Trash Nigel Ginerva. I was Talking about noticing. Noticing other people are attractive generally means you're noticing people you might want to fuck if your circumstances were different. I will concede something to Tim. Take a marriage therapist who writes, everybody knows there are pretty people everywhere. Noticing attractive people does not necessarily equate to wanting to fuck them. All right, I have to concede that that's partly true. The first time I laid eyes on Zendaya in euphoria, I was like, holy shit, she is very attractive, but I did not want to fuck her the first time I laid eyes on Tom Holland. Mr. Zendaya, congrats to the newlyweds. Newlyweds who are exactly the same age. So a big win there for the age gap incels. The first time I laid eyes on Tom Holland, I thought, he is very attractive. And fucking him is the least of what I would do to Tom Holland if Tom Holland was and into me and the age gap wasn't so great. But he's not and he's not. And it is. All right, back to our original rant, monogamous people. I'm trying to help you out. So let me put this another way. For the monogamous people out there who want to make a distinction between noticing attractive people and wanting to fuck them, a distinction that is usually without a difference. But there is obviously the Zendaya exception, as we will call it anyway. Monogamous people. A monogamous commitment means your partner doesn't act on their attractions to other people, but they will still sometimes notice that other people are attractive, and so will you. And if you go looking for evidence your partner is attracted to other people, you will find it. And if you are the jealous and insecure type, and you can honestly say your relationship wouldn't survive finding evidence your partner is sometimes attracted to other people or finds other people attractive, maybe for the sake of your relationship, don't go looking for that evidence. And then maybe your beautiful monogamous relationship will survive. And one day you will be able to smugly tell someone who's been married to the same man for 31 years and with the same boyfriend for 13 years that he's never been in love and doesn't know what love is now. Not everyone disagreed with me. So a big thank you to Black Philip, who tweeted in response to Dan Savage is a dumb bitch, but he's right. This one time, I will take it. No lie detected. Thank you, Black Phillip. All right, coming up on today's show, everything is looking great for a woman's new relationship, except for one important thing, the D is not doing it for her. Can she learn to love this D or will this new guy and his D have to go? And speaking of bodies, a woman with non porn standard labia wants people to appreciate the diversity of vaginas out there. And on the Magnum there's more than one poly memoir out this month. Natalie Davis, author of Saying My Adventures in Polyamory, joins me to talk about her journey from poly under duress to happily poly to poly memoirist. My conversation with Davis is on the Magnum version of the show. If you subscribe to the Magnum, you get to listen to the show ad free and hear my interviews with all of our guests and more calls. Another perk of becoming a Magnum supporter of the show. Savage Love Live Our next Savage Love Live is April 8th, noon Pacific Time, 3pm Eastern and 9pm in my remote European hideout. Chat with other Magnum subs in a Zoom hangout and ask me questions. I love answering questions live. We will send all Magnum subs an email with a link to the show on the day of the show. Again, April 8th, noon Pacific, 3pm Eastern, 9pm Europe. If you're not yet a Magnum sub, you can become one now by going to Savage Love. Subscribe. All right, let's get to the first call. This episode is brought to you by Carafem, an abortion and reproductive healthcare provider. Carafem offers both in person care in Atlanta, Chicago and and Washington, D.C. and telehealth options for abortion pills by mail in 21 states. CareFM's team of licensed medical professionals provide personalized abortion care options focused on your needs, your preferences and your values. Visit carefm.org to learn more. That's C-A-R-A F E M.org this episode
- [09:32]
of the Lovecast is brought to you by the good folks at Squarespace. They make it easy to build a beautiful website, blog or online store. Head on over to squarespace.com savage for a free trial and when you're ready to launch, use the offer Code savage to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.
- [09:50]
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- [10:05]
Caller - Woman with concerns about penis size
Hey Dan, late 30s cis woman here asking about penis size. I've been dating this guy for about three months. Everything's been going pretty good. You know, lifestyle aligns, values, conversations are great. He's very loving and caring and he's amazing. The Sex isn't that great. And we're actually on a break from sex right now just because it's hard for me to separate the emotional from the physical. And sometimes I feel like I get confused thinking that I really want to be with somebody, but actually just want to fuck him. So the end goal is eventually be in a relationship, and I just want to make sure that the connection is actually there without getting confused with the physical. But I guess I just wanted to know because he has a smaller than average penis. Not necessarily like a tiny dick, but I'm just not used to it. Strangely, I kind of find it harder to come with just clit stimulation. I actually need PIV and it has to be a dick. I can come with a dildo, but it just doesn't feel the same. I like feeling human inside of me. And his penis is just, you know, sometimes it does the trick, sometimes it doesn't. I'm used to coming every time I have sex in that way. And I guess I was just wondering, for people that are maybe with. In relationships with somebody that has a smaller penis size, do you get used to it? You know, sex is important. Obviously it's not the number one thing for me, I guess, in a relationship. But it is important. He is very giving. You know, he listens, he follows instructions. It's just he's missing about an inch, you know, I don't want to make him feel bad. Like, I've obviously never said anything about him having a smaller dick. I'm sure he knows he has a smaller dick. But I also feel kind of bad because I have a medical condition that doesn't allow me to lubricate. Like, I just can't get wet. But so I feel like I can't really complain about penis size when, like, I don't really get wet. So maybe he's not, like, fulfilled in that way and he's not saying anything because he's being nice because he knows about my condition. I just don't want to be a jerk. He's amazing. And I could see myself marrying this guy eventually. I just really need to know from people that have been in this situation, does it get any better? Do you get used to it?
- [12:33]
Dan Savage
I don't think you're on a break from sex with this guy because you really want to fuck him. And you don't want to confuse a sexual connection and sexual intimacy for an emotional connection and emotional intimacy. I think you're on a break from fucking this guy because you kind of don't want to fuck him because the sex doesn't work for you because the dick doesn't work for you. You say sex is important. It is. And if you're going to be in an exclusive relationship with someone, sexual compatibility needs to be prioritized right there alongside emotional compatibility. Those conversations you've already had with him about lifestyle values, you're on the same page about so much, but the dick isn't doing it for you. And since it's got to be dick and it's got to be human, it can't be a strap on, it can't be a dildo, it can't be a fist, it's never going to work for you. Sex with him is never going to be satisfying. Okay, so how long are you going to draw this out? The longer you draw it out, the likelier he is to figure out that it's his dick that's the problem. His dick, that is thoroughly resistible considering you're on a sex break right now. And when he figures that out, and he probably, you know, he knows he has a below average dick, but when he figures it out that you are just into him as a person, but so not into the sex and so not into his dick, that you just are keeping him around to have more conversations about lifestyles and values without fucking him. And fucking him is the only way you're gonna figure out whether you can get to a place where the sex is satisfying and the sex works. He's gonna put two and two together, and you are in danger of leaving him in worse shape than you found him. He's probably already a little insecure about the size of his dick. So I think you should break the fuck up with him and not say it's because your dick is small. It's just, I'm not feeling it. Well, he might read that as a comment about his dick. If you say, I'm not feeling it, you can just say, I really like you as a person, but I just don't think the connection is there between us sexually. And maybe that's mutual. Maybe that's on both sides. Because you say that you're taking this break from sex because in the past you've kind of mixed up or gotten out over your skis when the sex is great and read into the sex being great. An emotional connection that was not there. And you wanted to take the sex slow, but you had enough of the sex to know already this is not going to work for you. And the workarounds that I could give you, the workarounds that other men who have below average dicks who are with women who like that filled up feeling. Yeah, I can't give the suggestions to you. You've already ruled them out. It's gotta be dick, it's gotta be human, it's gotta be bigger. And you feel like a. When you have that kind of requirement, you do feel a little shallow. Like this is just something physical that a person can't control. But your need for dick of a certain size is something physical that you can't control too. So it's a bit of a wash here. No break up with the nice guy, his dick will work just great for somebody else. There's a woman out there who would prefer a below average penis. There are women who prefer below average penises. Penises can be too big. Or there's a woman who will be into his dick but also into toys and also into fisting and into direct clitoral stimulation outer course, which you are not into. So there's just no way I think you can make the sexual component of this relationship work. And if you wind up in a committed relationship with this guy because you like him so much, eventually it's going to come to tears for both of you. Because the longer you go without feeling satisfied, without climaxing during sex, the more catastrophic the crack up the breakup is inevitably going to be. And again, the greater the odds you will leave this guy in worship shape. Then you found him and you don't want to do that. So dump him.
- [16:52]
Caller - Nancy Natic Saviour
Hey Dan. Nancy natic saviour, risk youth. I'm calling with a quick question. I don't know how real this question should be or how real my concern is, but it's something I've been. My wife and I have been thinking about and talking about for a long time. So I'm hoping you can help. We have been trying to progress towards anal. We're curious, we're interested. You can watch a heated rivalry. So we're in. However, we're trying to figure out what the buildup and process to get there comfortably would be. We're trying to progress cautiously, fingers building to toys, so on. I think our big question is how long should that build up take? Is this something where after a few days she should be good to go? Weeks, months?
- [17:36]
Dan Savage
Everything a straight couple needs to know about anal sex, they can of course learn watching heated rivalry. Not true. But there are a lot of good best practices dramatized in heated rivalry. They're having sex for a long time before they progress to anal sex. Just as you and your wife have been having Sex for a long time as you slowly progress toward anal sex. The first time Ilya fucks the shit out of Shane, he eats his butt for presumably a good long time. Ilya when he penetrates Shane for the first time. Shane, who has before Ilya came along been practicing solo with a dildo, which is straight out of the Dan Savage how to get to Anal Advice Playbook. Practice with toys alone, have orgasms using a toy, experiencing anal pleasure, or having something in your butt without any expectation from the person attached to the thing that's in your butt, because there's no person attached to the thing in your butt and it's really just about you and your pleasure and have a few dozen orgasms that way to create a positive association between the feeling of penetration, of being stretched analy a little bit before you move on to a live human dick attached to a live Russian hockey player is a good idea. Also, good practice and heated rivalry. When Ilia penetrates Shane, he goes very slowly and encourages Shane to breathe and checks in with him about whether it feels all right, whether he's okay. And we see all of that before we see Ilya fucking pounding Shane into Shane's very expensive looking sofa in his apartment. You and your wife, you could borrow all those moves from Ilya and Shane. Additionally, toys, fingers, you need to approach that kind of anal stimulation in play as an end unto itself. These are not just training wheels to get you to butt fucking. These are ways of experiencing and exploring anal pleasure independent of whether or not you ever get to butt fucking. If you guys can, and I hope it's mutual, I hope you're putting toys in your butt too. I hope your asshole is in play too. If you are experiencing anal pleasure, a lot of lovely nerve endings doesn't have to be penetrative at first. You can lay a vibrator across a butthole. You can press it into the taint, into the not in, don't penetrate, just pressure on the whole. During mutual masturbation sessions, you put a butt plug in and fuck the wife and forget the butt plugs there. And the minute you're coming, your anal sphincters will contract and that butt plug will move a bit against your prostate. That feels amazing. Have nights where butt stuff is going to happen, but not butt fucking. And then when you finally are ready, when your wife is like, put that dick in me, or you're like, put that big fucking strap on dildo in me, the point should not be the person doing the fucking, is the person being pleasured. It's the person getting fucked, who's the person hopefully being pleasured. They may need to grit their teeth and bear it at first, the moment of penetration. But if they're allowed to breathe and relax and then control the pace of penetration, allowed to ride, not be ridden, and stimulate themselves during the process. The first time you fuck the wife, you should go in with the expectation that you're going to get your dick in her and maybe you're going to move back and forth just a little bit. You're going to thrust in and out just a little bit. But mostly it's going to be about her at that moment, relaxing, breathing and using a vibrator on herself or her fingers on herself while you guys kiss and make out. And it'd be really about her pleasure. Same if she's gonna fuck you with the strap on that first time. And if you do that advance work and create those positive associations, there's a lot of fear around anal penetration, a lot of shame stigma. But if you do that advance work and you just carve a really deep groove where this is not about the person getting fucked, serving the person fucking them, although that can be hot. And that can be the point for some people, that can be how they want to be fucked eventually, but about the pleasure being received by the person being penetrated, you'll get to a point where you're just dying to fuck each other's butts. But it takes time. It takes time. And remember, in heated rivalry, it took years.
- [22:23]
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- [23:30]
was wondering how you can tell the difference between somebody who's cheating to stay married and stay sane and somebody who's cheating because they're a cheater and they're feeding you a pack of flies. I think I know which situation I'm in, but I was wondering if there's anything I could look out for to be more sure. How do you tell the difference between someone who's a cheating piece of shit and someone who's doing what they need to do in order to stay married and stay sane? You can't with any degree of absolute certainty or with absolute certainty you can't. Someone who wants to cheat will tell the person that they hope to cheat with what they think that person wants to hear. And I'm doing what I need to do in order to stay married and stay sane is more sympathetic and the tale of woe more appealing potentially to an affair partner than hey, I'm just an asshole and I would like to fuck you now. And yeah, so if somebody's just, hey, I'm a cheating piece of shit, they're probably telling you the truth. If somebody's spinning a tail where they're in a relationship and they don't want to end it and their partner wouldn't want them to end it, and it's sad for all involved, but cheating in this instance or at this time in their lives is the least worst option for all involved. That could be a lie. That is, if they're telling you that there's a chance that's bullshit. They're telling you I'm just a cheating piece of shit, that's absolutely the truth. But the tale of woe, where I come more in sadness than in anger, I come in you, on you, near you, more in sadness than in a there's a good chance, a chance that cannot be eliminated or fully controlled for. Especially if while they're telling you their tal of woe, you want to fuck them. So you may be engaged in a little motivated reasoning to get you to what you want, which is the dick in this case. You say you know what situation that you're in, but you don't share any of the details. Vague posting this is the vague calling version of vague posting. Don't be vague. Give us the details. When you call in with a question like this. But if you know in your gut which it is and you suspect it's cheating piece of shit and you want to fuck him anyway, well, then you just have to own that you're kind of a cheating piece of shit adjacent, if not a cheating piece of shit yourself. Cheating piece of shit adjacent. And then roll your dice, move your bice, have your fun. Enjoy the deck. All right, let's talk about something that's often whispered about other places. We talk about it out loud here. That is Libido. If you've ever looked for a supplement to give things a boost, you know it can feel like you're wading through a minefield, right? So many options, so many questionable ingredients, so much truck stop Viagra out there. It's a market notorious for products clogged with products that feel more at home in a gas station in that truck stop than in your wellness routine. That is why we are excited to tell you about Drive Boost from VB Health. VB Health has changed the game by focusing on what truly matters, trust and transparency. Imagine a libido supplement formulated by doctors, one that's rigorously third party tested so you know exactly what you're getting and it's made with care. In the usa that is Drive Boost. Drive Boost is unique because it's formulated for both men and women and it works. So if you are ready to ditch the shady stuff and choose a libido supplement you can feel confident about, it is time to check out Drive Boost. Learn more and get yours at Drink VB Health. Seriously. Go take a look. Do your own research. Check it out. VB Health Visit VB Health Use the code SAVAGE for 10% off or click the link in the episode description. Let them know the Lovecast sent you by going to VB Health and using code Savage again for 10% off.
- [27:43]
Caller - Woman discussing labia diversity
Hi Dan, so something that I hear about on your show is about the diversity of penises, the size and shape of them and appreciation for all. Have not heard the topic of the diversity of vulvas since I was an adolescent. I have felt so much shame over the years about the appearance of my labia minora which sticks out and beyond the outer lips or labia majora, which we all should have learned in school. Partners, especially when we were younger, commented and made fun of my pussy's appearance, ignorantly calling it a little penis and not going down on me. Porn was their primary anatomical and sex education at that age, which typically displays pussies with relatively neat tucked in labia minora. Perhaps the standard for pussies like this is rooted in misogyny and even homophobia because women should be tidy and not messy or display their arousal with swelling genitalia in the way that males do. On social media I have heard all kinds of offensive terms like wizard sleeve and the dreaded beef curtains and mocking labia that looked like mine. I felt so vulnerable and would dread revealing myself to new sexual partners until I occasionally met men who were enthusiastic about the way mine looked and felt. And gradually, with some self work, I began to also see myself as desirable with my unique labia too. Labiaplasty the cutting and reshaping of the labia minora has become an increasingly common surgery to achieve that tucked in camel toe look that probably became in part associated with the trendy wearing of yoga pants combined with what is shown in conventional porn. Women can feel significant discomfort from having long inner labia necessitating surgery, but I sense that the primary cause for this type of genital surgery is for aesthetic reasons. Just check out Reddit as in other beauty realms. Why do we have to meet a singular ideal to be considered a great lover, sensual, desirable or even worthy? We have choices even in the constraints of societal norms. Anyways, I want to give a shout out to women and other vulva havers out there who have outies like mine. Labia and clitz come in different lengths, textures, colors and can be asymmetrical. You are healthy and sexy and deserve to have yours attended to. I also hope that sex education in schools can improve drastically to highlight the fact that there is a great genital diversity.
- [30:13]
Dan Savage
Dicks come in all different shapes and sizes and so do pussies. While some women with protruding labia have gotten surgery, plastic surgery, labiaplasty for reasons of comfort, most people who got it it's for reasons of aesthetics. Like you said collar and I think it would be better if people just accepted themselves and others were more accepting of the diversity of genitals than people were going under the knife to confirm to some ideal or pornified ideal of what a woman's genitals or a man's genitals should look like. There are men out there who've ruined their penises getting penis enhancement surgeries, trying to up the size when you got the dick you got, that's the dick you got. You got to work with the dick you got. And I think everyone should, especially everybody who sleeps with women, take the same approach to women's genitals come in all different shapes and sizes and it's all good. I don't think however, sex education is ever going to save us can't compete with porn and we don't really have it in this country. It's not good. They're not going to, which they probably should as a part of sex education. Familiarize young and inexperienced people with the full diversity of human genitals, all the different shapes and sizes, either or both can come in. They can barely bring themselves to talk about pleasure and sex in sex education in this country. Not going to talk about, not going to celebrate diverse genitalia. So each of us advocating for ourselves and leading by example by not being ashamed of our genitals, but also celebrating the genitals of the people that we wind up in bed with, we're going to have to do the work because sex ed curricula is not going to ride to the rescue. And you did the work, caller, by calling in and sharing your story and your perspective. And I'm really glad that you called. I'm really glad to have that. Everything that you said here on the
- [32:19]
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- [33:39]
Caller - Person involved with a couple
hi Dan, I'm looking for your advice around a dating dynamic. I am seeing a couple and specifically the man has been coming over for some casual sex. They live together, a man and a woman, and they're in a serious relationship. She's obviously aware that we are friends with benefits and I want to create a fun and flirty dynamic before he comes over. But I'm trying to determine what's the appropriate boundary here. We've obviously discussed the three of us, what's on the table in relation to sex. Everything is on the table there. But in terms of sexting, we didn't discuss that and I'm not sure if we should have. The last thing I want is for her to see a text from me to him that is pushing the boundary. I'm friends with her, but at the same time I think it'd be really fun to tease him a little bit before he gets. So what are your thoughts on this? What's appropriate, what might cross the line a little bit and how to navigate that. Since they live together, you could ask.
- [34:34]
Dan Savage
You've had these long involved, very detailed conversations about fucking and when you're allowed to fuck and how that might impact their relationship. And you've been very sensitive and solicitous of their opinions and considered their feelings. So yeah, you could just fucking ask whether sex. You could ask in a text message whether sexting is allowed. You know, some people in open relationships, texts from other people that you're fucking are allowed, are even kind of sexy. Like knowing your partner is somebody else is really dying for your partner's dick can make your partner's dick that much more alluring to you, can remind you that your partner's dick is great and get you back up on top of your partner's dick. Or it can be interpreted as that the third person not respecting a boundary when he's with her, he's with her. And if you're blowing up his phone the whole time he's with her, you're intruding on their. Their time, their together time, their one on one time. And so yeah, you need to ask them. Only they know the answer to this mysterious question. Only they can pick this lock. How much are you allowed to text before you guys are going to get together to crank him up? Or should you sit on your thumbs? And even if you do get the green light to text, keep it to a minimum. A few texts don't blow up the phone. Even if texts are welcome. Sitting next to your partner on the couch on your date night, watching dozens of text messages come in from their side piece or their secondary or their very special guest star or your very special guest star if you share. Even if texts are allowed, even if texts are usually sexy, too much of a good thing can be too much of that Good thing. So show a little restraint. If you are allowed to text, but you're going to have to ask them or him whether you're allowed to text. I couldn't tell you.
- [36:40]
Caller - Gay male exploring polyamory
Hey, Dan. 38 year old gay male, here in an open marriage, trying poly for the first time. Back in December, I told my husband that this one guy who is in a poly relationship that we've been hanging out with, just drinks and card games and stuff like that, that had a crush on this guy, my husband was extremely supportive and told me to go for it. So I spent the next two or three weeks reading books, finding forums, listening to podcasts, all about the poly lifestyle, all how to approach it. Me and my husband, we talked about our rules, our boundaries, and we established a firm enough foundation where I felt confident enough to ask this guy on a date. So I did in mid to late January. His response was that he loved the idea of it, but that he's working through some past dating things right now and that he wanted to meet up and talk about where he is with all that stuff. And so we did. We met up, we had drinks, talked for about three and a half hours and I really got a clear picture of where he is. I left that relationship feeling like he really is open to having a relationship in the future. But right now he needs a really good friend. And I am a firm believer that all good relationships start from good friendships as well. They have a good friendship as a base. So I'm totally down to explore this with him and be patient and work through it with him. We text all the time. We're actually meeting up for drinks this week and we are trying to be active in each other's life. My question for you, Dan, is how do I bring up if he's ready to pursue a relationship in the future? My fear is that I'll get friend zoned and the thing I want will be ignored and just swept under the rug. And one thing the books do not say is like, how do you follow up when you're trying to pursue someone in a poly relationship? I've always been really bad about just staying in the friend zone and it feels like it feels easier to do so when I have a partner and he has partners to just slide into that role. But I really would like to pursue a relationship with him and I want to know your advice on how I check in to see if he is ready for that possibility.
- [39:04]
Dan Savage
You're in a relationship, he's in relationships, you took him out, you told him you were interested, potentially Being his third or fourth partner. And he told you, I'm working through some past dating things right now, which to me, and I don't want to be cruel, I don't want to be mean, I don't want to rain on your parade to me, sounds like it's not you, it's me. I'm just getting out of another relationship, I'm too busy. It just sounds like one of those little white face saving ego sparing lies that people tell other people who've expressed interest in them that isn't mutual, that isn't reciprocated. So the question you need to ask yourself is how much time are you willing to invest in a relationship where you probably already have been friend zoned balls in his court? You did the right thing. I mean, you did a lot of legwork in advance of asking this guy out. You did a lot of homework, I think perhaps unnecessarily, but you did the right thing. And you told him why it was you wanted to go out or drinks with him, that you're interested in him sexually and perhaps having a relationship with him, dating him. And he said, no, not right now, maybe later. Which is rarely true. I'm sorry, when people say, oh, I'm not in a great place right now, but maybe later, they're just trying to be kind. And it's our responsibility when we hear something like that to read the rejection into it that was elided or left out of it to spare our feelings and to just assume it's a no. And so ball's in his court. If he works through these past dating things and he's interested in you and always was interested in you, he'll tell you now, now, fuck me now or date me now, date me now. He'll say something because he knows you're interested. And right now you're making yourself available to him not for altruistic reasons entirely, but because you want him to still be considering you as a potential future romantic partner. And you need to ask yourself, how much time and emotional energy should you invest in this guy if ultimately the feelings aren't returned? I don't think you should make an enormous investment of time. You say you're texting every day, you're talking to him a lot. Are you becoming an emotional support animal when what you want to be is a friend and a fuck buddy and a boyfriend? And if you are available to him 247 for emotional support or friendship, is that consuming time and energy that you could be plowing into finding a different guy? Or dating some other guys. If indeed you're interested in pursuing another relationship with another guy in addition to the guy that you're already with. I think what you do in an instance like this, and I have been there. I've been right where you are right now, is just assume you've been friend zoned already. And then if he comes back to you in three months and says, I would like to suck your dick now, you can be pleasantly surprised that you weren't friend zoned. And a pleasant surprise is always more fun than pining away.
- [42:36]
Caller - Bicurious man
Hey Dan, I'm a bicurious guy in my late 30s and I'm just curious if it's possible to come too much. I am head over heels in love with my partner of about six months and she and I connect a few times a month to have the most incredible sex I've ever had because I'm out of town for work a lot. When I come home, our sexual energy is charged and ready and we fly out of the gate. Often both coming multiple times in a night, sometimes three or four times in 24 hours. I'm just wondering if there are any concerns or considerations I should have with that and if that's just too much cum for my body to be producing in a healthy way in a day. Or maybe I'm just overthinking of it and I should just go with the flow.
- [43:34]
Dan Savage
Oh, Dan, I cum too much. There's humble bragging and there's cumble bragging and this is of course a cumble brag. It's great that you come three or four times. You are not going to injure yourself. It's not like you're going to have a fifth orgasm and one of your kidneys is going to fall out your dick. If you can come again, it is safe and fine for you. As a multi orgasmic sorta kinda, I'm sure there's a refractory period in there, but as a multi orgasmic kinda sorta, in a single extended session with your lover, come three times? Yeah, absolutely. This would be at the top of the list if I was gonna sit down and make a list of problems that are not problems. You are fine. All right, time for the listener feedback section of the show. First up, a few comments. Listeners left in the comment thread about last Week's show says Delta 35 loved Dr. Brindle. I'd add about K that our ancestors were probably much more vanilla because the current built environment is immensely more complex than in our evolutionary prehistory. There are many more types of stimuli today to get fixated on. It's hard to have a latex fetish or a centaur fetish or a riding crop kink when nothing around you is more elaborate than a loincloth. Good point, Delta 35 on that same subject, my conversation with evolutionary biologist Dr. Brindle last week about kinks and the sex appeal of Neanderthals and other things inspired another evolutionary biologist, jr, to jump into the comment thread. JR shared some fascinating additional details and analysis. Not every trait is adaptive, as JR reminds us, and not every trait is even a trait. Junior's post is a fascinating read. Way too long to share here. And if you enjoyed my conversation with Dr. Brindle, you will definitely enjoy reading JR's comment under last week's show says Candace for the caller whose wife is suddenly not into kissing, I think you owe it to her and your marriage to get more curious about what's going on. How is your wife? Is she stressed? Is she depressed? Is she exhaust having two young kids? If so, are there things that can be done to help? How is your relationship? Are you getting time to hang out, talk? Go on dates? Do you still enjoy being together? If not, a marriage counselor would be a good first step. And finally, for the love of God, how is your breath? Great points, Candace. Of course, Candace here raises the question of what the caller might be doing wrong. And it's possible he's doing absolutely everything wrong. But surely his wife did something wrong too. If the issue is something something that the caller could fix, surely his wife should have said that and not I'm never kissing you again. Ever. And finally, why so many memoirs by women and so few by men? Memoirs about polyamory and literally everything else. It's not just that women are likelier to write them and much likelier to read them these days. Nope, says nosy listener. Women's memoirs are objectively better. Women are expected to open a vein in a way men just aren't willing to. Cormac McCarthy can string together shit metaphors about Rhodes and masculinity and have a bestseller without revealing anything. Jessica Simpson. She gave us everything. All right, Got something you want to say about something I said on this week's show? Go to Savage Love and say it in the comment thread. And now, Savage Love listeners who left voicemails on our answering machine about last week's show? They get to have the last word on this week's show.
- [46:55]
Caller - Multi-orgasmic woman
Hi, this is a comment to the multi orgasmic woman from episode 1010. You are not alone. There are many of us out there. And to Dan, who was wondering how she could keep count. No, we don't get a clicker. And for me, anyway, how it works is the orgasms come in waves. So you start feeling aroused, get excited, then you have your first orgasm, and then it's like this big wave where it keeps cresting, so you have the next one and the next next one and the next one until you kind of get to a point where it's like, okay, I need a break. And you stop and you get to know yourself and know that your waves may be like 10, 15, 20 orgasms each. So if you have three, maybe four of these waves in a session with a lover, well, multiply by your number, your average number of orgasms per wave. And there you go, you get your 60 to 70, or whatever it is, is.
- [47:57]
Caller - Person discussing Beauty and the Beast
This is the silliest of little quibbles. But I wanted to address, Dan, your description of Beauty and the Beast, which is clearly based on having seen the Disney movie, which I will agree is probably the only way most people are familiar with that story. But actually, Beauty and the Beast is an original fairy tale, as opposed to an old orally handed down folktale that got written down later, was written in the 17th century by an actual woman. And in the original story, which is quite long, the Beast has perfect manners. And there is no. I mean, there is an enchantment, but there's no stupid thing with rose and petals and all that nonsense. And Beauty falls in love with the beast not because she changed him into being a nice guy, but because he is a nice guy. And she learns that the outward appearance is less important than his manners. And he's very polite. In fact, it could be argued that this is a story that demisexuality is only a beast in appearance, not in behavior and manners. And the whole point is that women want to be treated well.
- [49:00]
Caller - Polyamorous person
Hi, Dan. I'm here to add to the polyamory discourse from last week. I do agree that the next memoir does need to be written by someone with a different point of view. I truly do. But that point of view, it needs to be someone who chooses polyamory. I truly believe that opening up a monogamous marriage is incredibly difficult. And that's why I never did that. I chose as a single person to choose polyamory intentionally. And that's why all my long term relationships last. It was never a discussion. Well, I mean, there's many discussions. It's an endless board meeting. But everyone who dates me knows out the gate that I am polyamorous. It's never a question of opening up. And I'm really sick about straight married people being the ones that are dominating this conversation when it's not even theirs in the first place. Like let's. Let's be so real. But like we love you straight married people. Go off, keep writing your annoying books I guess
- [50:08]
Dan Savage
and we are going to leave it there. Got a sex problem? Got a relationship question? Go to Savage Love Askdan to record and upload your question directly onto our website. Or you can record a voice memo and email it to us at Qavage Love. Or you can call us at 206-302-2064 and leave us a message on our answering machine. And hey, if you tried something new and you want to share all the dirty details with me, send an email to Qavage Love and you might be my next guest on After Action Report. The Hump Spring Tour the this is our 21st year of bringing you the best and most creative, short and smutty films. Now from all over the world. Hump is coming to New Orleans, Vancouver, Philly, Columbia's Bremerton and Toronto this week. We also added shows later this spring in Ithaca, New York, Palm Springs, California and Provincetown. Watch the trailer for Hump 2026 Spring Tour and order tickets for a screening near you right now@humpfilmfest.com follow me at bluesky@dansavage, follow me on Instagram @dansavage, follow Natalie Davis on Instagram at Natalie Davis Adventures and check out her website Natalie davisadventures.com the Savage Lovecast is produced every week by Nancy Hartunian and me and Nancy and the tech savvy at Risk youth. We will all be back at you next week on the installment of the Savage Lovecast. Thank you as ever for downloading.
- [51:31]
Caller - Nancy Natic Saviour
Sam.