Caller - CNC Abduction Scene (4:39)

Every sperm is sacred Every sperm is great.

Dan Savage (4:47)

If a sperm is wasted, God gets quite irrayst. Every sperm is sacred Every sperm is good man just rewatched Every Sperm is Sacred from Monty Python's Meaning of Life. We will link it in the show notes. That number really holds up. So, so good. So many kids, so much great dancing, so much great singing. Anyway, the Church's teachings about sex are almost universally ignored by straight Catholics who've having premarital sex and using birth control and masturbating and committing sodomy at pretty much the same rates as non Catholics have forever. And to recent Catholic Converts a point of order here. Straight oral, straight anal, straight mutual masturbation. That's all sodomy, folks. Anything that isn't PIV between a man and a woman who are married to each other is sodomy, according to the Church, is just as sinful as gay sex. And so maybe it's the frustration of preaching to a choir that clearly stopped even pretending to listen decades ago that has peeled the Church away from this issue just a little bit. Or maybe it was all of those raped kids. All of those kids raped by priests. Maybe that didn't just cost the Church billions in damage settlements. Maybe it cost the Church its moral authority where human sexuality is concerned. People who raped kids and cover for people who did, like John Paul II and Benedict XVI both did. Those people maybe have no right to be lecturing adults right now about the consensual sex acts that they enjoy with other consenting adults. You know, Vatican City, when you think about it, Epstein island with better art. Still, if the Church is moving to, we'd rather you didn't suck that dick or terminate that pregnancy or marry that dude, but we're not going to fight you on it. That's progress. It's a win, and I will take it. And if condemning war and defending the poor and the hungry and the sick, if preaching the gospel to J.D. vance drives him and other right wing Catholics who cheered for the church's campaigns against gay people insane and out of the church, I'm going to be seated for that. Might even be tempted to sit back down in a pew. And a quick public service announcement. Please don't shoot the president. If fewer people had access to guns, fewer people would be able to take shots at the President. But the people who accuse us on the left of wanting to see the president get shot are the same people making sure that every lunatic in this country has access to guns. Make it make sense. I dare you. All right, coming up on today's show, should a gay man help his gal pal find a wedding dress even though he does not approve of the union or of her? Really? And how can a man plan the abduction scene his wife has always fantasized about without tipping her off that he's planning an abduction scene for her? And joining me on the Magnum, Dr. Jenny Young, professor of rhetoric and author of Burn the Haystack. The dating book everyone is talking about is here. We talked about her brutally pragmatic technique for women only to find needles, AKA good guys, in the haystack of bad guys on dating apps. We also talk about how dating apps are addictive by design and why she thinks straight men should always plan the first date. There's tons of great stuff on the micro version of the show. My conversation with Dr. Jenny Young that's on the Magnum Savage Love cast. You can show your support for the show by subscribing now to the Magnum Lovecast at Savage Love. You can also give the Magnum Lovecast as a gift. If there's someone in your life who who really needs to hear this interview with Dr. Jenny Young. And you know what? There probably is, go to Savage Love. Subscribe to get or gift a Magnum sub now. All right, let's get to the first call. This episode is brought to you by VB Health Dr. Formulated supplements that work. To learn more about load boost, drive boost and soaking wet and to get 10% off, visit VB Health and use the Code Savage. This episode is brought to you by Mack Weldon Timeless, innovative menswear to help you move through the day with confidence. Get 20% off your first order of $125 or more with promo code savagecwelden.com this episode is brought to you by Beducated. Sex is a skill or a skill set. And like any skill or skill set, it can be learned, practiced, mastered and acquired. BeduCated offers 150 plus expert led courses on everything from G spot orgasms to mind boggling oral techniques. Beducated gives you the knowledge, the exercises and access to the experts that can help level up your sex life right now. Click the link in the show notes to take BeduCated's quiz and start your personalized pleasure journey.

Caller - CIS Bi Woman (9:36)

Hi Dan, I'm a CIS bi woman. I'm in a relationship with a CIS man. We've been together for like five years or so and we really have a good sex life. We're pretty compatible and then like a little extra along the edges, you know, keep things interesting. We have sex fairly often and in a variety of positions. They're sort of like a few different flavors, if you know what I mean. Like, sometimes we have stuff that's really sweet and loving. Sometimes it's a little bit more dominant and rough. Sometimes it's very like, you know, dirty and I mean really slutty and just like, you know, a few different categories. We go to strip clubs every once in a while. We go to sex parties every once in a while. And generally things feel really good and healthy. But. And it's. It feels sustainable, right? It like feels like the kind of sex life that will stay interesting for a while. But I'm just starting to feel worried that maybe it won't. Like all of these things are just getting very slightly less exciting to me now. You know, like you talk about at the beginning, there's almost a little bit of fear and there's an adventure that we are on together. And then once we've been together for a certain amount of time, we stopping each other's adventures. And I'm just wondering what general advice you have to like, keep being each other's adventures. Right. I think generally speaking, trying new things together is right. Like that's sort of the advice. But can you be more specific? Like what, like what should we actually do? Especially kind of like I was trying to explain, I'm already in a sex life where we are trying new positions and using new toys and going to different places. Like, is that enough or is novelty so crucial to staying interested and staying excited that we need to like come up with even more new things to do?

Dan Savage (11:27)

You're doing everything right and it sounds like it's working. You and your boyfriend have been together for five years. You have a good sex life and you try new things, you buy new toys, you go to new and different and exciting places where you can be a little dirty, a little naughty, and you have a good sex life. You're five years in a lot of people, five years in barely fucking. Or the sex has become routine and you guys are keeping it fresh. Yeah, novelty is important. I think I've said at the beginning of a relationship, the excitement is effortless because you're the adventure they're on. They're the adventure you're on. Just getting naked with, with that person for the first time is going to make your heart race. Later years into the relationship, it's impossible for that person who is now very familiar to you and you're very comfortable with. It's impossible for them to feel like that cortisone, adrenaline pumping adventure that they felt like when you first met because now they're known to you and for you. A lot of couples will misidentify the waning of that feeling of risk, danger, excitement, arousal as a flaw in the relationship. Something's wrong with the relationship. It used to be so exciting with you and now it's not exciting with you. What's wrong with us? And there's nothing wrong with you two, Us necessarily. Hypothetical us here. I'm not addressing you, caller and your boyfriend. Nothing wrong with you, nothing wrong with us. It's just, yeah, you can't be the adventure anymore. You aren't effortlessly the adventure anymore. So if you want to feel adventurous again, you want that heart pumping, adrenaline pumping, cortisone, risky, ah, crazy sex again. You have to go on an adventure together, you and your partner. What was built in at 3 months has to be engineered at 13 years. Sounds like you and your boyfriend now. I'm talking to you, caller. Sounds like you and your boyfriend are doing that. You are intentionally having adventures together. You're trying new sex, trying new positions, trying new toys, going new places, doing new things, having adventures, and you're worried it's going to stop working. But it is working right now. And if it is working, I think you should maybe err on the side of continuing to do what you know is working. You asked me to be more specific about the adventures that you could go on, but that's not something that I can assign to people to a couple. You know, you and your boyfriend, you enjoy going to strip clubs. Hey, that's an adventure for you guys. That works for you guys. I don't really like strip clubs. Most of them are buildings with women taking their clothes off in them. And I don't want to look at that. I support. I mean, I don't mind looking at that, but it's not a sexual adventure for me to look at that. It doesn't turn me on, doesn't make me want to crawl up my boyfriend when I look at a woman take her clothes off. But it works for you guys. So keep finding things that work for you for the two people that you are. I can't assign things to you. Things that sound like a really fun sexual adventure to me might be really traumatizing for you and very specifically for your boyfriend. Really traumatizing. So I can't just yank my kinks off the shelf and assign them to you. Just keep being honest with each other, being open with each other. Keep improvising, keep saying yes and to whatever each other wants. Be whores for each other. Be the reason, when you look at him, you should see the reason why it happens for you. And he should feel the same way when he looks at you. And right now, that's what you've got. You've nailed it. Good for you. Congratulations. Keep doing what you're doing. And also accept that you will probably. You can explore themes more deeply, currents in your relationships, things in your erotic imaginations, the overlap of your erotic imaginations, you can go more deeply into those spaces. If there's any power exchange, you can always ramp that up with somebody that you feel safe with. Whatever your things might be, continue to explore those things more deeply. But also accept that there are trade offs in a long term relationship, that novelty is great. Adventures are something that you can engineer, but also intimacy and familiarity and comfort and regularity and reliability. Those things are also great and they can compensate to some extent for the waning of the effortless sexual adventurousness that's hardwired into a relationship, a sexual relationship at the very start. So value the adventures that you can go on together. But don't undervalue the stuff about being in a long term relationship that takes the edge off the adventures but also is really valuable in and of itself. Again, the intimacy, familiarity, regularity and the comfort that comes with the long term sexual connection and the commitment. So yeah, keep it up. Keep screwing what you're screwing.

Dan Savage (16:40)

Dan, I'm wondering your thoughts on the phrase if you wanted to he would. It's something that I've heard since I was a teenager. I'm 34 now and it's just something that friends will say to me in regards to situations with men and on one hand I agree with it and on the other hand maybe it doesn't give enough credit to nuances of relationship dynamics and like situations that people might be in. My situation is that my friend with benefits ended our benefits sex part of our relationship back in October. He said that he didn't want to do a disservice to me or the person that he was going to pursue dating. It didn't work out. That person, this friend of mine was in grad school with me. We were finishing our graduation year and so things got busy and the big dark came. I'm in your city and now we're still friends. He's one of my good friends from my program and we've have a physically affectionate relationship even though we don't have sex anymore. But I, I want to but I, I guess I'm just like a little nervous about being rejected and you know, make up this scenario in my head that like now that we're done with school and trying to find jobs and moving on with like the what is the next part of our lives that like maybe he wouldn't want to try to pursue anything because there's so much change and wouldn't want to like be in the way of something that I might choose and vice versa. So I don't know if I just need little slap in the face wake up call to like if he wanted to he would or you know, if there potentially is more nuance here. Yeah, we started hooking up as friends with benefits because I was in an open long distance relationship and I wasn't, quote, unquote, allowed to, like, date somebody or have a second relationship. But I feel like it could have gone there with this friend and the opportunity wasn't there at the time. So that's my quandary.

Dan Savage (19:01)

What do I think of the phrase. What do I think of the dating adage? The old dating adage, if he wanted to, he would. What that means typically, and it's usually used when one woman is talking to another woman about the mixed messages she's getting from this guy that she's been seeing. What it means typically is if he really wanted to be with you, if he wanted to date you, if he wanted to fuck you, if he wanted to marry you, you'd know it because he would show it. You wouldn't have to wonder. I'm not sure any catchphrase or dating adage, including all of my many catchphrases and dating adages, apply in all cases. None of them capture all the nuances and possible relation dynamics out there. None of them apply universally. But let's think about what he did. He shut it down with you to pursue something with someone else. Here's a little nuance for you. It could be that he would like to be with you. You initially started fucking this guy in a friends with benefits situation because you were an open relationship, you were committed to someone else, so he was the piece on the side. Did you ever tell him that he was someone you could see yourself with if you were single, if you weren't in a committed relationship with somebody else and just looking for some dick and companionship on the side? Is that something that he knows? Because at some point while you guys were fucking around, he shut it down with you to pursue something with someone else, someone who could possibly be his primary partner, his nesting partner, and that was not in the cards when you two started fucking each other. It could be that after he shut it down with you, it feels awkward with him now to come to you and say, would you like to start this back up? Because what that would be essentially him saying is, hey, when I ain't getting it anywhere else, I'll take it from you. If you're giving it. And he may feel like that would be insulting, that you might take offense, that you're not interested in picking things back up where you left off and possibly exploring whether something greater is possible for the two of you because you set the limit initially that nothing greater was Possible for the two of you. And it doesn't sound like you've ever talked about that with him. And then he shut it down with you. And he might be there thinking, hey, I'm not with anybody else right now. The person I ran off to pursue didn't work out with her. Now I'm hanging out with you, caller. Hanging out with the caller. You again. But I'm not gonna make a move because I don't. I like her. And I don't wanna hurt her feelings. I don't want her to feel like she's my cum sock. I see her as a fleshlight or my backup plan when I don't have anybody else to have sex with. And so it may be out of an abundance of respect for you and concern for how you might feel if he attempted to initiate again with you, that he's just not saying anything. So that's what he did. And that's some nuance. And around what he might be thinking. And it's only a mite. I don't know what he's thinking. But here's what you're doing. You're not using your words. If he wanted to, he would. If you want to say so, tell him. Men can't read minds. I am a man. Sometimes I can't read my own. I certainly can't read my husband or my boyfriend's mind. I rely on them to tell me things. You can tell this guy something. You can go to him and say, look, when we first got together, I was with someone else, and all we could be was friends with benefits. Then you went off and pursued someone else. Didn't work out, but you ended things with me and pursued things with her. And it didn't work out. And here we are, for the first time, both of us single. Would you like to start fucking again? Would you like to date me? Were you ever interested in something more with me? Or was I always just a friend with benefits and what you wanted was someone else, even if you did enjoy sex with me? Ask him what he's thinking. You might find out that he hasn't made a move for the reasons I ginned up there a second ago, trying to imagine what his inner monologue might be. Or you might find out that he isn't interested in reviving the friends with benefits arrangement that you used to enjoy or dating you in a serious way because he never saw you as that kind of partner. He saw you as a friend that he enjoyed having sex with. And it is possible for people to fuck and be friends and for the friendship to be real and genuine and the sex to be hot, but for there not to be enough there for those ephemeral, hard to articulate reasons. And I'm not going to speculate as to what his reasons might be to pursue more with that person. So if he wanted to, he would. But he isn't. He might want to. There's one way for you to find out whether he does want to, and that's for you to stop doing what you're doing, not using your words, and to start showing him to say something. Ask him. Use your words. This episode is brought to you by Drive Boost by VB Health. Your libido matters. In our culture, we act as if libido is secondary or even shameful. But libido can bring a lot of joy and vitality into your life and it can strengthen or cement those relationship bonds. That's why I think it's worth it to use whatever tools we have at our disposal to increase sex Drive and Drive Boost can really help. BB Health has changed the game by focusing on what truly matters. Trust and transparency. Imagine a libido supplement formulated by doctors, one that's rigorously third party tested so you know exactly what you're getting. And it's made with care. In the usa that is Drive Boost. Drive Boost is unique because it's formulated for both men and women and it works. 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Caller - 55 Year Old Bi Guy (25:45)

Hey Dan, I'm a 55 year old bi but mostly gay guy and I'm in a partnered but open relationship for about five years now and we're on the apps occasionally, you know, when we're apart and usually don't play when we're together we really really enjoy each other. Anyway, I was on the app today and a guy whom I had previously blocked or not blocked but deleted the conversation of before message me back up more messages and I was just like gosh. So I just deleted the conversation again and I got a message from him of course saying you know, gosh, the least you could do is is say you're not interested how hard is that? I replied, well, you know, how hard is it for you to take a hint? Because honestly, nobody really owes anybody anything. So, you know, good night. So the reply I got back from him was, well, you know, obviously he's learning that I don't have any sense of a social contract of decency. And I'm like, this is a hookup app full of gay guys, the cutthroatiest, cattiest queens ever. And frankly, you can take your condescension and shove it up your ass. Am I being the asshole here? I try, when I can, to respond politely. Hey, I'm not necessarily just kind of trying to be smooth and nice about it, but I don't feel like there really is a social contract of decency on hookup apps. What's your thought?

Dan Savage (27:11)

You are not obligated to send a Dear John letter to everyone who hays you on sends you a hey on the hookup apps. That conversation that you mentioned, the one you deleted after you determined you weren't interested in meeting up with this guy, I want to know more about that conversation. I want to know how long it went on for. Did you just exchange a couple of pictures and a few messages and then it just kind of fizzled out? Or did you do that thing that sometimes people do, even on hookup apps where you chatted back and forth, where there was a rapport and a little bit of playful engagement? If it was just a hey and a hey back and then you deleted the conversation, yeah. You don't owe him the courtesy of the Dear John later. You don't have to serve him divorce papers if he reaches out to you again and you are still like you were before, not interested. But if you engaged with someone, I don't know, I just think sending them a. It was nice to chat. Don't think we're a match. Not interested. Good luck out there. Happy hunting. I think that's a courtesy. And a courtesy is something you give a person. It's not something you owe a person. But I think the social contract should tilt us in the direction of a little common courtesy. I think he was a little dramatic when he basically have you, at long last, no decency, sir, you when he sends you that message. And I think you went to 11 there when you blew up at him. So who's the asshole? I mean, he was a little bit of a pathetic asshole. And maybe you were a little bit of an aggro asshole. If I may. If I may, recognizing that you didn't owe him the courtesy a Courtesy is a gift. You didn't owe him even an acknowledgement of his have you, at long last, no decency? So you didn't even have to respond to that. You could have just deleted the conversation and blocked him this time. But yeah, it depends. It depends if it was just hey, hey, here's my dick pic, here's my whole pic. And then the rest was silence. You didn't know him. Sorry, not interested message. But if you spent a day bantering and flirting and swapping pics and engaging with someone and determined at the end of that day that you are not interested, I do think we should err on the side of a little common courtesy to make the world a little bit less cold and unwelcoming and brutal and harsh for all of the bitchy catty queens online and off. So it depends. It depends. Did you chat all day? You owed him the courtesy of a sorry, not interested, hate each other. You didn't. He shouldn't have sent you that scolding message. Nobody gets on hookup apps to have their knuckles wrapped, and you shouldn't have blown up at him. Everybody could have behaved better in this interaction. This episode is brought to you by Mack Weldon with the change in weather, I'm usually at a loss for what to wear after so long wrapped up, in fact, thick layers. Here in Seattle, I am ready for light, comfortable clothes that'll feel good and look good if you've seen me and what I tend to wear. You know I am not a fashion guy, which is why I'm so glad I discovered Mack Weldon. Mack Weldon is perfect for me because their fits are not flashy, just classic. Always in style and made from the world's most comfortable performance materials. Their clothes are easy to style and they offer versatile looks that you don't have to think about. Mack Weldon is effortless by design. I recommend the Ace line, crazy comfortable but elevated sweatpants, shorts, sweatshirts, and even blazers if you're lucky enough to grab one of those while they're in stock. They look like regular clothes, but they feel like the latest in modern comfort. My favorite thing to do is to throw in one of their pieces after I get home from the gym and sit down to write a column or record a podcast. So comfortable. And I know that if I have to, I can step right out of the house. Looking good. Get moving with Mack Weldon Comfortable anywhere. Go to mackweldon.com and get 20% off your first order of $125 or more with promo code Savage. That's M a c k W-E-L--o-n.com Code Savage let them know the Lovecast sent you. Makweldon.com Promo Code Savage.

Caller - Gay Male Friend (31:38)

I'm a 36 year old gay male and I have a concern about a friend that just asks me to go wedding dress shopping for her this weekend. And I don't know if I should go and I'm in a situation where I'm damned if I do, damn if I don't. To provide some context, the guy she's marrying she met in Europe. She was living there for the past, I don't know, five, six years. And she just recently moved back to Mexico because her UK visa ran out and she met this guy in the uk. What complicates things is that I have interacted with them and I don't see any signs of stability in the couple. They fight over very simple stuff. Big fights in front of everyone quite a bit. And I don't know that they love each other enough to get married, which is kind of like point number one. Point number two is I know that she is looking after having her paperwork settled for her to go back to Europe at some point and to have that visa for the uk, but she claims that she wants to live in Mexico City with this guy and he doesn't want to move here. It got to a point where one time he visited, she told us to make the trip good enough for him so he would want to move here. Which to me sounded very strange because that kind of like told me that they don't even want to leave in the same country. So that's kind of like point number two. And point number three is she has been very erratic with her decisions lately. She's fighting with her friends. She got into a huge fight with a very old friend and they don't speak anymore over something very silly. She had an abortion as a result of having a fight with her fiance. So it was pretty clear to her that she did not want to have that baby at the time. And this was a couple of months ago and now they're getting married. So I have reached out to her and asked her to maybe go to therapy. I let her know that she's being a little bit erratic in her choices and that she needs to take better care of herself, settle down a little bit, think twice on what she wants to do, maybe focus on getting a job. She's unemployed right now. I just don't know what to do about the wedding dress shopping. It feels Like I'm lying to myself that I agree with everything if I go, but I know that it really going to hurt her if I don't go. So please help.

Dan Savage (34:33)

Point one, you don't know if they love each other enough to get married. Yeah, it doesn't sound like they love each other. It sounds like a high conflict relationship. Point two, she wants a visa for the uk, she says, but claims she wants to live in Mexico City with this guy and he doesn't want to live in Mexico City. Yeah, that's kind of a problem. They don't want the same things. She can't marry this guy against his will. She can't shotgun wedding some dude from the UK and force him to show up at the altar there in Mexico City and marry her ass. On some level they're in agreement about one thing, they would like to be married to each other. But if they're not on the same page about where they're going to live once they're married, I can't imagine that they'll be married for very long. And that won't be your problem. Nor is it your problem to avert or your problem to solve. Point three, she's been erratic with her decisions lately. She's also alienating her friends, burning her friendships to the ground. So what do you do? Should you go wedding dress shopping with her? You did the thing a friend should do. You gave it to her straight. You told her that she's a mess. You told her to get therapy. You told her not to marry this dude. You told her to get a goddamned job. You already said all of the things that a friend might hesitate to say to an out of control bride for fear that she would blow up at him or terminate the relationship, end the friendship, as she's already ended friendships with other people in your lives, in your orbit, and yet she didn't. You told her all of that and she wants you to go wedding dress shopping with her. You've done everything that you can do, everything that you should do. Showing up for her to go wedding dress shopping after you said your piece does not make you complicit in this bad decision that she might be making. If anything, it gives you another opportunity to press your case to be like, I can't believe we're here in this wedding dress shop, wedding dress shopping, when you don't seem to know what you want. You don't seem to be in a good place emotionally or mentally. Say this in front of the clerks in the wedding dress shop by double dog dare you because they've probably seen it. They've probably heard overheard conversations like these before. Maybe they're good at stepping in and helping out at a moment like this. If she has a meltdown while she's wedding dress shopping, which I remember that show say yes to the Dress, there were occasional meltdowns about wedding dress shopping. There were often moms or sisters and occasionally the gay best friend there wedding dress shopping with a bride and clearly telegraphing, even articulating their disapproval of the coming match. While wedding dress shopping, you can do both. You can have it all here. You can be the supportive friend and continue to level with your friend about the mistake that you think she's making. Yeah, if I were you, I would go go wedding dress shopping. If nothing else, you will have a great story to tell and hopefully you'll call back and tell us all about it. We want to hear how the wedding dress shopping trip went. Sex is a skill. Kind of like playing the violin is a skill, but nobody expects us to know how to play a violin the first time we pick one up. Learning to play the violin, it takes practice, time, effort and good teach. But were expected to pick up a human being and just be good in bed naturally. Without practice, without effort and without good teachers. Yeah, no. Beducated brings you the pleasure based sex education that you need, that you would benefit from and brings it right to your bedroom. Beducated offers 150 plus expert led courses. These are the teachers you've been looking for. Experts who'll teach you about everything from G spot orgasms to mind blowing oral techniques that'll make your partner go wild. One of the standout features of Beducated is the variety of courses they offer. From hot massage techniques to adventurous play, from tantra to varsity level kinks, there's something for literally everyone. Beducated offers clear video tutorials, practical exercises and reliable information you can choose to learn on your own or with your partner. And their content is inclusive, embracing all races, sexual orientations and genders. Whether you're single, in a relationship or just interested in exploring your own desires, Beducated is essential, safe and exciting space for everyone regardless of your sexual orientation or gender identity. Their courses empower you to enjoy sex more, they build your confidence and they help you communicate better with your partners. Beducated has an awesome two minute quiz that will recommend a personalized roadmap to sexual happiness just for you. Right now. Click the link in the show notes and go to beducated.com to kick off your personalized pleasure Journey. Click the link in the show notes at Savage Love.

Caller - CNC Abduction Scene (39:40)

Hey dan, I'm a 40 year old married man living in the Northeast. I have a question for you about what's the best way to plan a CNC abduction scene with my wife. My wife has told me that she has a fantasy about being abducted and taken advantage of while she's out for a jog. She is into bdsm, she is submissive, and this is something that I think could be really fun for both of us, but obviously comes with some risk. One of the things that I am concerned about is if I were to say to her, hey, you know that fantasy you have about being abducted while you're jogging? Wouldn't that be really fun? She would know that it was coming and she would suspect that every time she goes out for a jog that might happen and that it would be me who was doing it. And that would ruin the surprise and the ability to suspend disbelief and go with it. But I also am nervous that if I did it without talking to her about it, that, you know, that could risk her reacting poorly, her being scared, her actually punching me or something like that, or screaming or something that could happen, make it all go downhill very quickly. So obviously I want to talk to her about it, I want to get her consent, but I'm not sure what's the best way to do that. I've thought about maybe asking one of her friends or trying to think about if there's another way that I could communicate with her about it without it making it totally obvious that I'm planning it. We have a quiet jogging trail in our town where she likes to go for runs. I've scoped it out. It seems like a pretty good place. There's nobody around. I could definitely find a place to hide in the woods and it would be relatively safe. And obviously you need to be away from people's spying eyes where somebody might call the cops on you. So that's definitely something that I've thought about. But the question is more about how do I safely have a conversation with my wife to get her consent to the non consensual part of this without making it totally obvious that I'm planning this and ruining the surprise.

Dan Savage (41:32)

Maybe I need to go in for a cognitive test like the President, because I listened to your call and the first thing that leapt to mind was there is no ethical consumption under capitalism, which has nothing to do with your question, the non sequitur. But I guess my brain was just riffing on what it was trying to think, which is there is no safe abduction scene under the circumstances you described. There is no safe, sane and consensual abduction scene without some advance conversation. And the conversation's already been initiated by your wife. She told you that she has this fantasy of being kidnapped and her kidnapper having his way with her. She initiated the conversation that you're afraid of continuing to have with her, and you shouldn't be afraid of continuing to have that conversation with her. If having a conversation about it would ruin the fantasy for her, then what was she doing initiating the conversation about it with you? Obviously, a conversation about it won't ruin it for her. So pick that conversation back up, go to her and say, hey, and you do need to check with her about this, because some people have fantasies that they do not ever want realized. She shared with you, honey. You shared with me your fantasy about being kidnapped and ravished by your kidnapper while you're out jogging. Is that something you really want to experience? Is that something that I, being ggg, should make happen for you? And if you get a yes, tell her, okay. All right. I am going to make that happen for you. I'm going to help you realize this fantasy someday. File it away. Let's forget about it. It's not going to happen tomorrow or next week or next month, but when it happens, it'll be me. And hopefully she would instantly recognize you and therefore not fight too hard. Of course, a woman out on a lonely jogging path is always at some risk because men are terrible. That's why women pick the bear. And so unless you're telegraphing to her in that instant that it's you, you're using a code word Marcus sent me, you could say, or something. She might fight you if you're in disguise, if you have a ski mask on. But if you tell her that, you will use a word, I guess, an unsafe word, the opposite of a safe word. Something that doesn't end the scene, but begins the scene so that she knows it's you and so that her resistance is cops and robbers. It's theater. It's play. And she feels safe leaning into the drama of it all. Yeah, that won't ruin it. That'll make it possible for her to enjoy it. If she thinks she's actually being kidnapped and abducted by a sex predator, she's unlikely to enjoy any of it. But if she knows it's you and she knows it's coming. Oh, my God. That's going to make every time she goes out for a jog a little bit of a thrill because it might happen on this one, might be you. You might come through for her on this one. And that's one of the things that's exciting about a fantasy and a plan to help a partner realize a fantasy is the anticipation and that conversation that you're afraid of continuing to have. The conversation that she already initiated will give her the gift of being able to anticipate the realization of this fantasy if it is a fantasy that she wants realized. And you don't yet know that because you have not checked with her about it, and you are going to check with her about it before you make this happen for her, to make sure she wants it to happen for her. Have I been clear? There is no ethical consumption under capitalism. There is no safe abduction scene unless there's been a conversation in advance. Oh, and you're going to want to, if you haven't already listened to after action report number 22 headlined kidnapping. It is about two guys doing what it is that you're thinking about doing. Staging an abduction scene consensually and with a lot of advance negotiation and doing it safely and everybody having a blast doing it. Check it out after action report number 22 kidnapping. All right, time for listener feedback. First up, a few comments listeners left in the comment thread about last week's show at Savage Love, says Menomina in a reference to my conversation with comedian Connor Janda about the late but not so great term fag hag. I know the cultural dynamic is different, but there doesn't seem to be an equivalent term like dyke dude for all those men. And we do exist who like to hang around with lesbians. Well, Mahnamahna, I know that at least in Madison, Wisconsin in the early 1990s, we called dudes like you lesbros, says Shalma M. I think Dan misunderstood the woman calling in about opening up her marriage. She isn't criticizing her partner's answer to the open relationship request. She seemed happy that he agreed to the change, but this has unearthed further questions for her as to whether they can grow together moving forward. There is so much more to Shalma's comment. If you're the caller or just interested in the call, jump into the comment thread under Last week's show to read it. And thank you, Shalma, for taking the time to write it, says RVA pilot to the guy whose marriage of almost 40 years is now sexless. Two years ago, my wife came out as asexual. After a long, challenging run, Dan pretty much described where we've ended up. I've been seeing the same sex worker now for a year. The relationship is obviously a professional one, but the clear boundaries does allow for a real human moment of connection. Seeing a sex worker has removed an enormous stressor in our marriage. And every month or a month and a half, I get to have a fun evening out with an interesting person with no entanglements and finally says no cute name about the same caller to the man in the sexless marriage of almost 38 years. I think you should consider having your wife listen to your phone message. You are so articulate about your dilemma in your call. You don't sound angry or resentful, and you talk about how much you love your wife. People are so good at saying the thing they don't know how to say to their partner, at least when they're saying it to me. Because the stakes are lower. Because maybe they can unsay it when they say it to me. In next week's Savage Love, I urge a reader who doesn't know what to say to a potential new partner to just let him read her letter to me. Because that thing she doesn't know how to say, she said it perfectly to me in her letter. All right, if you've got something to say about something I said on this week's show, you can jump into the comment thread at Savage Love, where everyone will see what you had to say about that thing I said. Or you can call us at 206-302-2064 or shoot us a voice memo at Qavage Love. And now, a select few Savage Love listeners who left voicemails on our answering machine about last week's show get to have the last word on this week's show.

Listener Comments (48:34)

Hey, Dan, I have a comment about the caller that was on a dating app and wondered what the reasonable expectations were. She said she was dating the guy, not just chatting with him online or seeing him is what she said. So what I landed on for me is that if you're sleeping with somebody regularly, then you should talk about monogamy. Until then, it's all fair and love and dating. Hey, Dan, this is in response to the caller who had her consent violated when she hooked up with Jeff, the husband of the couple that she'd been hooking up with. I think that, you know, your advice was spot on. She doesn't owe this man anything. He owed her safety and he did not give that to her. And she has no reason that she should have to meet up with him. I think that it's very telling that this happened the first time that she had solo sex with him, when with his wife, she felt like everything was safe, that everything was continually checked in on. One thing that I think that you miss is that while he doesn't deserve anything from her, I do think that the wife should know what happened. Because if she does not speak to the wife about her consent being violated, the husband has the full control of the narrative to her. And I think that women have a right to know when the men that they have chosen to be with are violating the consent of other people in their life. She should have to hold him accountable if she's going to choose to stay married to somebody who is violating the consent of the unicorn that they sought to find. Especially if they hope to find another unicorn in the future.

Intro Announcer (50:08)

My 30 something professional hooker with a PhD from Canada responding to your guy in the sexless but very loving marriage who is considering opening up in episode 1015. Also responding to, like, literally anyone else who's been on your show who's like, oh, I don't want to blow up my marriage, but I need to get laid more. Consider seeing escorts. We are way less likely to cause drama. We don't want to date anybody's husband or wife or whoever. And you don't have to deal with all the like, emotional complexity of polyamory and you get your rocks off. So if you're not looking for more relationships and you're just looking to have sex, there's some really wonderful people where you can have like, nice, connected, fulfilling sex with no strings attached in the best possible way. And I cannot believe people keep going to maybe I need additional relationships. So much trauma, so hectic. Don't do that. As the partner who doesn't want to sleep with their husband or whoever, I would much prefer my partner went to see prostitutes, then started getting involved in like, dating everybody in our immediate social circle or whatnot, or going through the horrible rejection risks of like, online dating, which can really batter an ego. You reach out to somebody you think is cool, you meet them once it's hot, they're not gonna send you 5 million pictures of their dog or fall in love with you. You will almost certainly get laid. Way less drama. Admittedly, there's like a privilege element here where it's not cheap because it's so high risk on the part of the provider. So legalization would make it more accessible. But yeah, I can't believe this doesn't come up. And polyamory is always the suggestion. You can get reliable sex. It just costs you money but is really good and maybe exactly what you

Listener Comments (52:07)

need

Dan Savage (52:10)

and we are going to leave it there. Got a relationship issue? Got a comment for us? Go to Savage Love to record and upload your question or your comment directly onto our website. Or you can record a voice memo and send it to us at Qavage Love. Or you can call us at 206-302-2064. And hey, if you tried something new and you want to share all the dirty details with me, send an email to Qavage Love, let us know what you did and you might be my next guest on After Action Report. Come and see me in person at Sessions Live in New York City with Esther Perel and so many other amazing people May 15th and 16th. Info and tickets at sessions live2026estherperrell.com and to get a discount on in person or virtual tickets, use code savage100 for in person tickets or savage50 for virtual tickets. Cleveland and Fort Collins the best dirty little film festival in the world, the Hump Film Festival is in you this weekend. We Milwaukee, Ithaca, Durham Hump is in you next weekend. The call for submissions for the Hump 2027 Film Festival has gone out. For everything you need to see Hump in a theater as God and Pope Leo intended you to, or streaming at home, go to humpfilmfest.com Follow me on bluesky@dansavage. Follow me on Instagram @dansavage. Follow Dr. Jenny Young on Instagram at Wordcase Scenario for all things Dr. Young. And to get a copy of her amazing book Burn the Haystack, check out her website jenny young.com the Savage Lovecast is produced every week by Nancy Hartunian and me and Nancy and the tech savvy at risk youth. We will all be back at you next week. Another installment of the Savage Love Cast Cradle. Catholic or not. Thank you for listening. This episode of the Savage Love Cast is brought to you by Load Boost by VB Help. Load Boost is a supplement designed to improve the taste, the volume and the overall health of your semen. If you're already putting in the work, why not make your performance unforgettable? Made in the usa NSF certified and produced in an FDA registered facility. Thousands of guys across 50 states and 45 countries swear by Load Boost. If you want bigger finishes and better reviews from your audiences. If you want better taste, better mouthfeel, better, go to loadboost.com today and use code savage for 10% off or click the link in this week's episode description. That's loadboost.com and use offer code Savage.