Savage Lovecast Episode 1018

Summary

Savage Lovecast Episode 1018 - Summary
May 12, 2026
Host: Dan Savage
Guest: Comedian Jackie Kashian

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Main Theme & Purpose

In Episode 1018 of the Savage Lovecast, Dan Savage takes on a mix of sex, relationship, and culture questions, interspersed with his signature humor and political commentary. The episode tackles myths about gay anthems and Donald Trump’s claims, offers advice on relationship breaks, explores shifting attitudes in gay sexual dynamics, discusses the complexities of age-gap relationships (with guest Jackie Kashian), dives into the science and psychology of nipple play, and provides space-inclusivity guidance for non-binary bear enthusiasts. The show closes with lively listener feedback and Dan's witty reflections.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Debunking Donald Trump’s “Gay National Anthem” Claim

[00:23-09:40]

• Dan Savage opens the show discussing Donald Trump’s repeated claim that “YMCA” is the “gay national anthem” and brags about the supposed gay vote.
  • Dan fact-checks: “YMCA never went to number one” on the Billboard Hot 100; also, Trump did not win a particularly large share of the gay vote compared to past Republicans.
  • Quote: “The lie I wanted to address today—YMCA is not a gay anthem. It's certainly not the gay national anthem. You don’t hear it in gay bars, gyms, or cruises.” — Dan ([01:35])
  • Dan notes that the song was co-written by Victor Willis, who publicly states it’s not about gay subculture and threatens legal action against those calling it a gay anthem.
  • Explains the actual history: “Somewhere Over the Rainbow” was historically more seen as the gay anthem, later briefly replaced by Lady Gaga’s “Born This Way.”
    • His Gen Z “whisperer” suggests culture is now too fragmented for a single anthem.
  • Ponders—who are Trump’s lies for? It’s not for gay people, nor for the Village People’s Willis: “Gay people hate Trump and Trump’s base hates gay people. So who are these lies for?” — Dan ([07:43])
  • Dan ends the segment with a humorous lament about the prospect of Willis suing Trump: “It would be chaotic and hilarious and so deeply, deeply appropriate. A fitting end to a shitting decade.” ([08:46])
  • Brief aside denouncing attempts on social media to “cancel” Tom of Finland aesthetics: “If Susan Sontag’s amazing essay ‘Fascinating Fascism’...couldn’t stop gay men from dressing up like fascists and fucking the shit out of each other, your shitty little post isn’t going to do it either.” ([09:32])

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Relationship Breaks: Break Up or Just a Break?

[09:40-17:54]

• Caller ([09:40]) is uncertain how to handle frequent “breaks” initiated by his girlfriend in a two-year post-divorce relationship.
• Dan’s Advice:
  • Says caller must find out why she wants breaks: “Taking a break is like asking for a breakup with takesies-backsies, where you can officially be off but the other person is still on the hook.” — Dan ([12:16])
  • Proposes two possible motives: she’s either not strongly interested/ hedging bets with others, or feels overwhelmed by the relationship’s intensity.
  • Suggests for sanity, caller should act single during breaks rather than waiting in limbo: “You should treat taking a break as a breakup… You should regard yourself as single and free and get the fuck back out there.” ([16:31])
  • Recommends getting clarity on her motives and reporting back.

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Evolution of Gay Sexual Norms: The “Eat That Ass” Law

[17:54-22:44]

• Caller observes bottoms now expect tops to rim them; asks if this is new etiquette.
• Dan traces gay sex culture’s evolution:
  • Earlier norms (as in Larry Townsend’s “Leatherman’s Handbook”) held “degrading” acts for subs/bottoms; today, that has changed.
  • Quote: “It’s no longer regarded as degrading to eat an ass…if you’re gonna fuck it you gotta eat it.” — Dan ([18:38])
  • “Everything is sort of on the menu if you’re a top…if you’re going to fuck a guy’s ass, I think you’re kind of obligated to eat that ass. Welcome to 2026.” ([20:12])

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Age Gap Relationships: When “Dickful Thinking” Meets Ritual Space

[22:44-33:00]

• Caller ([22:44]) wonders about pursuing a mutual spark with a woman 30 years his junior—concerned about family dynamics and potential Seder awkwardness.
• Special Guest: Jackie Kashian (comedian)
  • Jackie: “30 years is a big gap, man. It's too much.” ([26:15])
    • Suggests caller is at risk of misreading friendliness as sexual interest; advises imagining the reversal if it were his own 25-year-old niece.
  • Dan acknowledges his own age-gap relationship and internet “age-gap incel” complaints, but stresses skepticism: “People need to control for dickful thinking…but yes, some young women are attracted to older men.”
  • Both agree careful “due (or ‘screw’) diligence” is needed to verify mutual interest via third parties, but caution that pursuing the relationship almost guarantees awkwardness within the community.
  • Jackie quips about “backup Seders” if things get weird.
  • Conclusion: Pursuing such a relationship is inherently risky and likely to generate awkwardness; test your assumptions before making a move.

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Nipple Play Exploration: From Numb to Electric

[34:58-40:50]

• Caller ([34:58]): Gay man details how nipple play (using clamps, suckers, etc.) awakened new, powerful sensation, which diminished over time; asks how to regain the intense response.
• Dan explains the phenomenon:
  • The “first wired” period brings “electric” sensitivity, which fades as the body acclimates.
  • “Your nipples toughen up a little bit…that crazy sensation…eventually goes away.”
  • Recommends more experimentation, different methods, perhaps a partner, and trying new kinds of clamps or E-stim units—always safely.
  • Encouragement: “If you don’t give up on your nipples, you will find that place. And it might require escalation, not harder clamps, but more and longer play or different types.” ([38:40])

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Bear Spaces for Non-Binary Femme AFAB Lovers

[40:50-44:58]

• Caller ([40:50]): Non-binary, femme-presenting person attracted to “big fat hairy gay bears” wonders if they are welcome in bear bars/events, and whether they can find bi bears.
• Dan’s nuanced response:
  • Statistically, “big fat hairy guys” are not rare (citing US obesity and overweight statistics).
  • While some bisexual bears exist, at bear events in gay bars, those present are likely seeking men.
  • “You might be welcomed by some, tolerated by others…but you would definitely get pushback if you start hitting on the guys at the big gay bear night.” ([43:02])
  • Suggests finding a big, hairy, straight or bi guy, and “turn him into the bear of your dreams” using fashion and accessories.
  • Notes some straight guys envy bear subculture, wishing women appreciated their body type as fetishistically as some gay men do.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Trump’s claims:
  “YMCA never went to number one…also a lie that Trump won a bigger share of the gay vote than any other Republican…Like the sign in my living room says, fags hate Trump.” — Dan ([01:33-01:44])
• On the ‘Gay Anthem’ debate:
  “If we ever had a gay national anthem, it was ‘Somewhere Over the Rainbow.’ … But this decision was taken before I was born.” — Dan ([02:34])
• On “relationship breaks”:
  “Taking a break is like asking for a breakup with takesies-backsies…” — Dan ([12:16])
• On modern sex etiquette:
  “If you’re gonna fuck it, you gotta eat it. … I think you’re kind of obligated to eat that ass. Welcome to 2026.” — Dan ([18:59-20:12])
• On age gap caution:
  “Don't all relationships get weird? … We always risk it getting weird when we jam our genitals together with somebody.” — Dan ([29:02])
• Jackie Kashian:
  “My knee jerk reaction is, dude, no. Find someone who’s, I don’t know, 10 years younger than you and they will also be very pretty.” ([31:00])
• On nipple experimentation:
  “Your nipples are so sensitive, they’re suddenly wired…eventually that goes away and does not really come back. Your nipples toughen up a little bit.” — Dan ([37:30-37:55])
• On bear spaces:
  “You want to walk into a gay bar on a bear night and pick up a big, fat, hairy gay bear or bi bear… By dint of being in the gay bar on bear night, that bi bear is looking that night for dick.” — Dan ([42:01])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Trump & The “Gay National Anthem”: 00:23 – 09:40
• Relationship Breaks: 09:40 – 17:54
• Gay Sex Etiquette – Rimming: 17:54 – 22:44
• Age Gap at the Seder (with Jackie Kashian): 22:44 – 33:00
• Nipple Play Exploration: 34:58 – 40:50
• Bear Bars & Inclusivity: 40:50 – 44:58
• Listener Feedback Recap: 49:15 – End

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Listener Comments & Feedback

[49:15–51:48]

• Respondents weigh in on poly relationships and lying, women’s bar safety and approaches, and handling group sex disappointment.
• Reinforce Dan’s core philosophies: Own your orgasms; explore risk/threat empathy; don’t trust a “lying liar who lies.”

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Overall Tone & Style

• Language: Blunt, witty, irreverent, sometimes profane, always candid and inclusive.
• Mood: Smart, supportive, skeptical, occasionally acerbic, and comic—especially in collaboration with guest Jackie Kashian.

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For listeners new and old, this episode is a robust ride through contemporary queer culture, personal exploration, and the messiness of love and sex—delivered as ever with Dan Savage’s signature candor and humor.

Transcript

[Dan Savage]

You're listening to the Savage Lovecast, Dan Savage's sex and relationship show for grown ups. If you're under 18, get out of here, youngin. If you're stuck in a relationship quandary, or if you're looking for sexual harmony, well, there's nothing you can't pass

[Caller or Listener]

on.

[Dan Savage]

The Savage Lovecast. I'm off this week, so here at the top of the show, I'm just gonna share a silly gay thing I want get off my chest. A thing that unfortunately requires me to make you listen to that man's voice. I am sorry. It can't always be avoided. Donald Trump keeps going on TV and talking about ymca, the song by the Village People that he plays at the end of his rallies. I talked about this the last time he brought it up. Let's play the clip now.

[Caller or Listener]

I think when you know, I did very well with the gay vote, okay? I even had, I even played the gay national anthem as my walk off, okay? And I think it probably helped me, but I did great with no Republicans ever gotten the gay vote like I did.

[Dan Savage]

And I'm very proud of it. I think it's great. Well, now he said it again. She hates when I dance to what's sometimes referred to as the gay national anthem. You know that she hates it. It was number five 32 years ago and it went to number one for months during the last months of the game. We love that song. He said it again. So I'm going to talk about it again first. YMCA never went to number one. That is a lie. It was a huge hit when it was released in 1978 on their album Cruising. Village People's album named Cruising, but it didn't go to number one. It did go to number one on the Dance Electronic Digital Song Sales chart in 2024, but that's not what going to number one means when people use that expression. To go to number one, you have to be number one on the US Billboard Hot 100 chart, which YMCA never was. Also a lie that Trump won a bigger share of the gay vote than any other Republican. John McCain, Mitt Romney both got bigger shares of the gay vote. And Trump's share of the gay vote, as I discussed on a previous episode, cratered in 2024. LGBT people, gay people were the only minority group that Trump didn't see his numbers improve with between the election in 2020 and the 2024. Like the sign in my living room says fags hate Trump. But the lie I wanted to address today, YMCA is not a gay anthem. It's certainly not the gay national anthem. You don't hear it in gay bars, you don't hear it in gay gyms, you don't hear it on gay cruises. It wasn't even much of a gay anthem when it came out. I was there. It was popular, it was a hit with gay people from for a minute and then straight people started dancing to it in ballparks and at wedding receptions and you never heard it in a gay bar ever again. And if we ever had a gay national anthem, it was Somewhere over the Rainbow from the wizard of Oz. I would have preferred There's a Place From Us from west side Story or We Kiss in the Shadows from South Pacific, but this decision was taken before I was born. The gay national anthem was Somewhere over the rainbow for decades. Then it was briefly Gaga is Born this way in the 2000 and tens and then so far as I know, we have been without a gay national anthem for at least a decade. But to be sure, I checked in with my Gen Z whisperer. I asked him if there's a gay national anthem at the moment that I might not be aware of and he told me there isn't. He added that there probably won't be a gay national anthem ever again. We are living, he said, in a post gay national anthem era due to cultural siloing, the atomization, the culture, including gay culture and social media echo chambers and the lady singer icon glut we're currently living through. We can't settle on just one. My Gen Z whisperer said someone might argue current gay national anthem or current gay anthem might be Rain on Me by Lady Gaga and Ariana Grande, a song that came out five minutes ago. But any song you choose, warned my Gen Z whisperer, will inevitably elicit protests from some clan of Twitter gays insisting you got it wrong. All right, sorry to get into the gay national anthem weeds there. Wanna get to what's weird and what's weird? What's remarkable. Hence these remarks about Trump bragging about playing the gay national anthem at his hate rallies and winning the gay vote. Who are those lies for? With the exception of a couple of toxic self hating gay capos that couldn't get blown in a hurricane looking at you, Rick Grinnell. Gay people hate Trump and and Trump's base hates gay people. So who are these lies for? These lies about winning the gay vote, these lies about playing the gay national anthem, who are they for? They're certainly not for Victor Willis, the lead singer of the Village People and co writer of YMCA not only does he insist YMCA is not a gay anthem, a song he wrote about guys hanging out at the YMCA for an album called Cruising, Willis insists he had no idea the YMCA was or the Navy replaces gay men engaged in quote unquote illicit activity when he wrote these lyrics. It's fun to stay at the ymca. You can get yourself clean, you can have a good meal, you can do whatever you feel fun to stay at the ymca. They have everything for young men to enjoy. You can hang out with all the boys. And have I mentioned that the album is named Cruising? Describing YMCA as a gay anthem, Willis wrote in a statement posted Facebook in 2024 is defamatory and damaging to the song one. But it stops, he continued, in 2025. It's defamatory because it suggests Willis was thinking about hot, sweaty gay sex that men might be having in gyms, young men might be having in gyms when he wrote it, which he insists he was not. And he went on the record saying that he and his wife, yes, his wife brandished his wife. He and his wife were gonna sue any motherfucker who said his shitty song was a gay anthem. A song again, that you're likelier to hear at a rural Midwestern wedding reception in Iowa than you are at a big city gay bar. Well, it's 2026, and the only motherfucker out there calling YMCA a gay national anthem is the President of the United States, a man Willis supported. And so far as I know, Willis and his wifey wife have not filed a lawsuit against Donald Trump. But I wish he would. Because Donald Trump, a creature of New York in the 1980s, being dragged into court by the lead singer of the Village People, a ban that sanitized and commercialized gay sex subcultures in Greenwich Village in the late 70s and 1980s, would be chaotic and hilarious and so deeply, deeply appropriate. A fitting end to a shitting decade. Oh, and a quick aside to the Gen Z sex phobes who took to Blue sky this week to try and get Tom of Finland canceled because Luke Evans wore a Tom of Finland inspired outfit to the Met gala. It's not gonna work. Gay men have a long history of dressing up like the bad guys and fucking the shit out of each other. And the bad guys have never taken it as a compliment or an affirmation of their worldview when gay men dress up like them and fuck the shit out of each other. And you aren't the first people to point out the troubling provenance of the Tom of Finland look its outline, its silhouette. If Susan Sontag in her amazing essay Fascinating Fascism, which was published 52 years ago, couldn't stop gay men from dressing up in outfits that echo the aesthetics of fasc, which they do, or we do, without endorsing the political ends of fascism. Yeah, if that essay didn't put an end to it, your shitty little post on Blue sky this weekend isn't gonna put an end to it either. All right, come see me in person at Sessions Live in New York City this weekend with Esther Perel and so many other amazing people May 15th and 16th. For tickets and info about all of the speakers and the meals, meals will be served, go to sessions live 2026 asteraparell.com all right, coming up on this week's show, a man's girlfriend keeps asking him for breaks from their relationship and then getting back together with him. What could it mean? Then follow along as a man walks us through his exploration of nipple play. It is a journey and a very femme presenting non binary assigned female at birth. Person wants to know if the big hairy gay bears at the big hairy gay bar will mind if they turn up to hit on them. If they turn up to hit on the gay bears and the gay bear bars. And our guest this week, comedian Jackie Cashin, a Midwesterner like me who knows her way around a sex joke. There's about 10 minutes of my conversation with Jackie on the micro and the whole thing is on the Magnum version of the show, which you can subscribe to right now at Savage Love. Do it. You know you want to do it. Become one of my subs right now. Savage Love subscribe all right Nancy, hit me with the first call. This episode is brought to you by Field, an app where curious people come to connect. Download Field on the App Store or Google Play and find out why so many of my listeners are already using it. This episode is brought to you by forea, makers of life changing all natural organic formulas for your most intimate needs. Right now, get 20% off your first order by going to foreiawellness.com savage or by using Code Savage at checkout. This episode is brought to you by VB Health Doctor formulated supplements that work to learn more about load boost, drive boost and soaking wet and to get 10% off, visit VB Health and use the code SAVAGE.

[Caller about relationship breaks]

Hey Dan. Late 40s, cisgender guy, divorced, been dating post divorce and this relationship since matching on the app is just about two years, but there was a two month breakup in there and she's initiated a number of Breaks. So my question is about breaks. I've never done this before. This is new for me in my life and I find it really hard to navigate because it feels to me like it's a step towards breaking up. And so it feels really hard to not just assume the worst and lean out. Right now we're on a one month break, no contact, and check in after two weeks and I'm trying not to go crazy. I feel like the best approach for me maybe is to just assume it's a breakup and then when reconnecting briefly after two weeks and then presumably a little more after a month, see how we both feel about it at that point. Any advice, any tips on how best to manage a relationship break would be appreciated.

[Dan Savage]

It would help you manage this emotionally if you knew why she was wanting to take these breaks from your relationship. It would help me advise you if I knew why she wanted to take breaks from the relationship. If she told you, you did not tell me. So I have to fly a little blind into this. My gut reaction is that she's not that into you or she's not sure you're the one and she occasionally, maybe she's still out there on the apps, meets somebody else. And so that she's not a cheating piece of shit, technically she takes a break. She asks you to take a break, a month or two break. And in that time while you are apparently confused and pining and aching and wondering she's dating somebody else. That's the least charitable read where her motivations are concerned. More charitable read where her motivations are concerned. I don't know, maybe you're a little overwhelming. Maybe being in a relationship with you or it being Facebook official or something, you come on a little strong and she feels a little overwhelmed and needs her space every once in a while. And rather than just telling you that in a less hurtful way, she low key breaks up with you, takes a soft break, taking a break from the relationship. Taking a break is like asking for a breakup with takesies, backsies, where you can officially be off but the other person is still on the hook. It makes me think of those Hollywood studios that buy up IP intellectual property, books, novels, graphic novels, because they might want to make that movie, but they don't want anybody else to make that movie in case they might want to make that movie. Maybe you're somebody she might want to be with and while she dates other people or thinks about whether she really wants to be with you, she just holds on to the IP like one of those Movie studios that bought the IP but isn't making the movie. She's got you as the boyfriend, but she's not. Yeah. Not wanting to make a commitment she can't unmake. Not wanting to be with you in a way where she can't declare takesies, backsies. Or taking a break whenever she wants to take a break. I gotta imagine she's taking these breaks for a reason. And it's been two years. I imagine you know what that reason is. And if you don't know what that reason is, that's a problem. If she is asking to take a break and you ask why do you want to take this break? And she does not give you a satisfactory answer or a straight answer. Yeah. Then my money's on the uncharitable read that she is. Would rather be with you than with no one. But if someone else comes along or an opportunity presents itself, she wants to chase that other person down, see if there's something else out there, someone else out there that she likes more and better. You need to get an answer from her if you don't already have an answer from her. When you get that answer from her, call me back and let me know what that answer was. Why is she taking these breaks? And it's not just been one. It's not just. I have cold feet. I'm not sure I'm ready to be in a serious partnership. And we took a little break and we got back together. Because now I know, now I'm sure she wants to do this again and again and again. Yeah, something's up. And I do think for your own sanity and emotional safety and security, you should treat taking a break as a breakup. You should not be sitting there pining. You should not be hoping she might call you in 12 days instead of waiting the full 14, the full two weeks before you touch base, you should regard yourself as single and free and get the fuck back out there. Do what I think she's probably doing. Date other people. When you're on these breaks, see what your options are. See if there isn't a woman out there who wants to be with you so badly that she doesn't want a break, doesn't need a break, isn't going to ask you to take a break. This episode is brought to you by foreia, makers of Awaken Arousal Oil, Intimacy Melts and Sex Oil. Imagine the best orgasm or sex you've ever had. Now imagine that that orgasm could be even better. And it could be with products that are designed to naturally enhance sexual pleasure and make your orgasms bigger and better. Products like Awaken Arousal Oil, a juicy warm up that helps you get really turned on, increasing your pleasure, deepening your orgasms and increasing your connection with your partner. It's made with CBD and warming sensation inducing organic botanicals that enhance arousal, sensitiv access to orgasm and just, you know, overall pleasure. Best of all, Awaken and its application, the two of those things together, that combo platter just turns you on. 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Let them know the lovecast sent you. Foreawellness.com savage for 20% off your first order hi there Dan. In my 20s and 30s I was mostly a bottom and I felt that I was expected to rim the top guy before we screwed, which I didn't mind at all.

[Caller or Listener]

I rather like.

[Dan Savage]

But now as a top I find that bottoms don't want to do the rimming anymore.

[Caller about age gap relationship]

They expected to get rimmed before you screw them.

[Dan Savage]

Do you find that that's a kind of unwritten law these days? So if you're talking about having been a bottom 30, 40 years ago, there was an attitude back then, perhaps best exemplified by this book, popular with Leather guys, Larry Townsend's Leatherman's Handbook, that if it was degrading, it was the sub's job. It was the bottom's job. Sucking dick, that's degrading. Sub suck dick. Getting fucked, that's degrading. Subs get fucked. Eating ass, eating somebody's ass, that's degrading. A sub eats ass, that has definitely changed. It's no longer regarded necessarily, hopefully by most, although it can be sexy. To toy with what might feel degrading or be degrading coded. But it's no longer regarded as degrading to eat an ass. And I wouldn't describe it necessarily as an unwritten law. I've seen it written down in many, many places that if you're gonna fuck it, you gotta eat it. That eating an ass, performing any lingus, rimming somebody before you fuck them if their ass is clean and sparkling is anal foreplay. It's your responsibility practically. Also your privilege if it's a nice hot ass. And hopefully you think the ass you're about to fuck is nice and hot, otherwise you wouldn't be fucking it. It's a privilege to get to put your face in there first. And it can help someone relax their anal sphincters and get them wet and horny and prepare them to take your massive dick. So I just think there's been a kind of sea change in attitudes among gay men in the last 30, 40, 50, 60 years, where this attitude that if it was, you know, if you were the receptive partner, you were the lesser partner, and that's just not the attitude anymore. Tops eat ass, tops suck dick, tops fuck butts. Everything is sort of on the menu if you're a top. And, yeah, that's good, that's good. We no longer class gay sex acts by what's sort of the passive role and therefore degrading versus the active role and therefore, I don't know, ennobling, that it's more of a jumble and that it's just a privilege to get to fuck a guy and you should want to eat his ass. And in fact, if you're gonna fuck a guy's ass, I think you're kind of obligated to eat that ass. I remember reading the Leatherman's Handbook when I was like, 20 years old and thinking, well, this is dumb because, like, I was a top, but I love to suck dick. And it was right there written down, a written law, that a top didn't suck a dick because that was degrading. I've never felt degraded sucking a dick. I've only ever felt elated sucking a dick. And if it's a beautiful ass and I have the privilege of fucking it, I've only ever felt privileged in getting to eat it. And I do think that it is written down in many places and didn't write it down today, said it out loud today. But I think this program automatically generates a transcript of all the podcasts now. So, indeed, what I just said is written down it is law. You gotta eat that ass as a top. Welcome to 2026. This episode is brought to you by Load Boost by VB Health. Every guy wants to finish strong. If you've ever wished to you finished bigger, a little more fireworks in your finale. Let me tell you about Load Boost from VB Health. This doctor formulated supplement offers increased semen volume, enhanced orgasm intensity and even better taste so your partner will thank you. The ingredients are 100% scientifically backed and designed to improve sperm health, prostate function and overall experience. It's vegan, loaded with nutrients and manufactured in the USA with top tier quality ingredients. If you want to increase your semen volume, try it out. VB Health also just released Energy Boost, a pre workout supplement built around well studied effective ingredients for blood flow, energy and focus. VB Health. Check them out. They have so much to offer. Head to loadboost.com and use my exclusive code SAVAGE to get 10% off or click the link in the episode description. It's time to elevate your performance and with Load Boost you might just become someone's new favorite performer and new favorite flavor. That's loadboost.com and use my exclusive Code Savage.

[Caller about age gap relationship]

Hi Dan, middle aged man from the Northeast calling. I was recently at a Passover Seder with my family, my extended family. And there's a young woman at the Seder. We are not related. And this is when I say family. This was my stepmother's family, this woman. I've known her for about seven years through the Seder and when I've seen her the last couple times we've had this spark between us, undeniably. And she's quite a bit younger than me, probably 30 plus years, I bet. And what I'm really wondering is what to do about this. She is a grown up fucking woman. She lives locally. She has interest in me. I know it. I have interest in her. But it's within this family dynamic. Her parents are pretty much my age. I just wonder if anything happened between us, what would happen to future seders? Would they become really weird? Or would I never be able to go to one again and am I overthinking this? Is this just something that I need to act on and explore with her to see what's there, let go of whatever I'm trying to control into the future? How would you advise me at this point to move forward with her? To ask her out and explore what's there between us or just allow this to die on the vine?

[Dan Savage]

Joining me to help tackle this question, stand up comedian Jackie Kashan. The New York Times raves that Caishan is the kind of comic who turns fury into eloquent goofiness. Vulture says her new special altercation ends with a closer about sex and her husband that would crush on the road in any city. Jackie, thank you so much for coming on the Savage Love cast.

[Jackie Kashian]

Thanks for having me and thanks for watching this special. I'm a big fan for a thousand generations, so thank you.

[Dan Savage]

So that closer, I'm not going to play it. Sometimes we play a clip. I don't want to ruin it. I want everyone to go watch your special because it is amazing and it is hilarious. I just wanted to say I have talked on my show for 20 years and to the point of exhaustion where my listeners are exhausted when they hear this phrase about the point of orgasmic inevitability. That point you reach when you're fucking where you're gonna come and you're coming, but you're gonna come and you can't stop it. And there's literally at the end of your special in this hilarious bit about sex in a long term relationship, a point of orgasmic inevitability joke. You don't use the phrase, but I just wanted to like highlight one of the reasons I loved your special because I felt like it was just for me. A point of orgasmic inevitability joke.

[Jackie Kashian]

You know what? That is exactly what it is. Because he's coming and he can't stop coming, but he can start laughing and so he laughs and he comes and he laughs and he comes and he comes and he laughs.

[Dan Savage]

One of the perks of fucking a standup comedian is sometimes you get to come and laugh at the same time. All right, let's talk about this caller's problem. 30 year age gap. Sees this woman at a Seder. He's the same age as her parents. Caller says that he's certain she's interested in him. Provides no evidence. There's nothing that's been introduced into evidence to prove that she's into him. And sometimes dickful thinking is a thing and people need to control for dickful thinking. But let's just take him at his word. He is certain she is interested in him. She is genuinely interested in him. 30 year age gap. Should he go for it?

[Jackie Kashian]

No, no, I think it's going to ruin. I don't think he's going to enjoy the Seder ever again. If she was just being nice, like, if, like, because he, she might just think he's very funny and very smart and A good guy. And he might take that as being attracted because she might want to genuinely be friends. 30 years is a big gap, man. It's too much.

[Dan Savage]

Yeah. You'll be the guy at the Seder who made a pass at the woman who's 30 years younger than you are, whose parents are your age. And also at the Seder.

[Jackie Kashian]

Right. And you don't have any kids. Like it might have helped if he had a 30 year old daughter like, or 30 years like because let's say he's 55 and she's 25. Is that right?

[Dan Savage]

Yeah, that would be 30 years.

[Jackie Kashian]

That's 30 years. Good for me with math. Now if he had a 25 year old daughter, he might be able to just go, oh right. No, but he, maybe he has a 25 year old niece that he can think about. Like think about a 25 year old who you are related to if you were to hit on one of her friends and think about that.

[Dan Savage]

Yeah, that's kind of gross. I am in an age gap relationship myself where there's a 22 year age gap.

[Jackie Kashian]

Sure.

[Dan Savage]

I'm in an age gap relationship where if the age gap were a person who could buy me a drink, it's a significant age gap. So I don't want, I can't. It would be hypocritical of me just to come down on the side of any age gap. I've had people tell me that the age gap in my marriage, which is seven years is too great. There's kind of these age gap incels all over the Internet now who argue that any, anything more than like two or three years, you can't control for the abuse of power in that relationship. Which is why they all love Zendaya and Tom Holland. Because literally they're the same age. They were both in utero at the same time. Oh my God.

[Jackie Kashian]

They have.

[Dan Savage]

I call it gestational concurrency. And that's the only kind of relationship that these incels on the Internet think is legitimate. But, but. So I don't want to tell them. He, what I do want him to do is I want him to call back with evidence of why he thinks that she is interested in him sexually. Because it's not always just the case. Sorry. It's not always the case that older guys are interested in younger women and younger women are never interested in older guys until the older guy hits on them, at which point they just can't resist the old dude's gray haired dick. Like there's a lot of young women out there. Who are attracted to older men.

[Caller or Listener]

Truth.

[Dan Savage]

But there's a lot of old men out there who are convinced some young woman is attracted to them because she was nice.

[Jackie Kashian]

And there's more of that. There's more of that than the first.

[Dan Savage]

Yeah, there's a lot more of that, which is why you have to do your due diligence or your screw diligence and control for that.

[Jackie Kashian]

And screw diligence. I forget how many puns you have about sex. Congratulations.

[Dan Savage]

Well, I've been at this. We were both talking before we started recording that. We've both been doing podcasts for 20 years, so I'm sure on your podcast we've been doing it for 20 years. Dork.

[Jackie Kashian]

There's a lot of handles, right? There's a lot of dorkdoms, a lot

[Dan Savage]

of lingo, a lot of acronyms, a lot of puns. Okay, so it's interesting. We come down to different sides of this, so I really want to tease this out. So you're a no, don't do it. Think about your 25 year old niece and how weird this would be and how negative the reactions from everybody else at that Seder is going to be if it gets weird. And it's not going to get weird. A 30 year age gap just is inherently weird. Even if things went perfectly well, you and you had a great long term or short term relationship, it's always gonna weird people out. It will just be weird. An age gap of 30 years. All right, but you say, don't. She's probably not into you. But if she were into him and he could verify that by checking not with her, but with some mutuals, like test your hunch. Go to people and say, like, I've always felt like there's a vibe. Tell me I'm crazy. If I'm crazy. And if other people at the Seder are like, no, dude, she's into you. If other people who know the both of you, maybe there's somebody who knows the both of you that she's confided in. If you can verify her interest. And it's not just your dick telling you what it wants you to believe. It's not dick bull thinking. Don't all relationships get weird? Don't we always risk things being weird when we jam our genitals together with somebody for the first time? Like, it could go badly. That person could be crazy. You could be an asshole. You could both. It could be a terrible relationship. We always risk it getting weird.

[Jackie Kashian]

I love the idea of due diligence. I love what you've, what you've said about just really taking a real look at it. Because my knee jerk reaction is, dude, no, Find someone who's, I don't know, 10 years younger than you and they will also be very pretty. I don't know.

[Dan Savage]

Or 10 years older than you also. Or 10 years possibility.

[Jackie Kashian]

I have a friend of mine who, her husband was 20 years younger than her and they were together for 25 years and then she turned 70 and he had a small freakout and moved to Amsterdam. So I get, I mean, I get that too. Right? But they had a lovely 20 years together. And then he was like, oh, my dick still works. I'm sick of working on this. And he got out, right? And he, and he didn't do it particularly politely. Yeah, I know.

[Dan Savage]

That was sad, as we would say around here. He didn't stick the dismount.

[Jackie Kashian]

No, he did not. The East German judge gave him a three. So that's, it's not cool. But. So, But I do like the idea maybe there is a third party that he could check in with.

[Dan Savage]

But it get weird. Like it gets around the Seder that you're asking other people who go to the Seder if this woman is interested in fucking you, if they have any dirt, data, insight, right? Just that's going to make it weird. Like there's no way, there's no way for anything to happen between caller, between you and this woman without it being weird. Just the weirdness is going to be inherent. If you have no tolerance for weirdness, don't do it. But if you have some tolerance for weirdness, maybe, Maybe.

[Jackie Kashian]

And how much do you like that Seder? Do you have another Seder option?

[Dan Savage]

A backup Seder?

[Jackie Kashian]

A backup Seder that you have always

[Dan Savage]

wanted to go to.

[Jackie Kashian]

Because you could do it, it could work. Or you could blow it up. And if you blow it up, maybe you go to this other Seder for two years and then come back to the original Seder when she's pushing 30 and she's probably forgotten about it.

[Dan Savage]

More Jackie Cation on the Magnum. Become a Magnum sub now at Savage Love. Subscribe this episode is brought to you by Field, the dating app you keep hearing my callers talk about on this show. If you're wondering why, it's because Field serves the curious, the open minded, and people who know that the concept of normal is overrated. Swipe culture. Not a thing. On Field, you can browse profiles without having to say yes or no right away and take your time making intentional decisions about who you engage with. Put your interests and desires right on your profile. Desires like being a brat, exploring DS or bdsm, and even friendship. Field supports honesty in its very architecture. Your bio can be as long as you like. But if you have something you only want to say to people you're vibing with that you've connected with, you can write a hidden bio which you choose when to share with potential future lovers and friends. And active consent is embedded into the very design of field. For example, DM'd photos with nudity are automatically blurred to give the recipient the opportunity to decide for themselves if they want to see them. And Field has a new feature called Reflections. It's designed to reveal you to yourself what you desire. The relationship style that works best for you. Your boundaries. By answering these deeper questions about yourself, you can reflect before you connect. What are my actual boundaries? What do I deeply desire? What type of relationship do I really want? If you have the language to say what you want, if you can use your words, you will be so much closer to getting what you want. You know, it sounds a lot like the advice I give people on this show. Know thyself little introspection. Use your words. Try Reflections right now by visiting Field, co Reflections or by downloading Field on the App Store or Google Play Field. It's where it's at and it's where my people are at. And if you're one of my people, you're going to want to get on field.

[Caller about nipple play]

Hi Dan, Nancy and the tech savvy at Risk youth. I am a 49 year old gay man living in San Francisco. I have a question about nipples. So a little background. I've always had pretty disappointing nipples. They didn't poke out much at all and they were not at all sensitive most of my adult life. A little While ago, maybe 2017, I think I got some, some little nipple suckers. They're the snake bite size kind that just go around the the nub and I was able to work myself up to a little point on them and they actually got a teeny bit sensitive but I didn't think much about it. And then I got into a long term relationship. Once that relationship ended as a way to kind of, I don't know, bring some joy back into my life. I decided to go on a nipple exploration exploration to really see if I can increase the sensitivity of my nipples. I had always heard that you could if you played with them enough. So I started playing with them and I started to get more intense with the play. I went down to Mr. S. I got some nipple clamps and that. I don't know, Dan. It changed everything. Suddenly I had nubs on my nipples that poke through my shirt. Not quite the crazy pencil erasers that some guys get, but certainly ones that you can visibly see, which totally excites me. And also they started to get super sensitive. Like, even putting on clothes, I would. I would get a sexual thrill. And that was November and December. I would say it was when that was happening. Then January hit and I don't know what happened. It just, like, they still poke out. They still look great. Very happy with that. But the sensitivity is just kind of not gone exactly, but certainly not to the level of intensity that it was. And a lot of times now it's sort of hit and miss whether or not the sensation I feel is pleasurable. Sometimes it's great. Sometimes it's super painful. Sometimes I barely feel anything at all. I've gotten an inverted nipple sucker kit that I use when I masturbate, trying to bring it back. And I'll tell you, once in a while it works. Again, not quite the intensity of November and December, but once in a while, it really does increase the sensations in my orgasm. And, like, the sensations just themselves are awesome. But what happened and why can't I get it back? Like, I really would love to have that feeling. I tell you, it was unlike anything. Totally changed what my regular orgasms feel like.

[Dan Savage]

Wow. Yeah. What you describe everybody out there into nipple play who's been like, men, gay men into nipple play, and straight men. Straight men, too, can be in a nipple play. They remember what that period was like. When you first start getting into serious nipple play. You get your first pair of clamps, or somebody put clothespins on your nipples for the first time and really went at them. And then the next day, your shirt moves against your nipples and it's like your nipples not quite on fire, more like electric. Like, you just feel it. Your nipples are so sensitive, they're suddenly wired. But they're also. Those first few times you put clamps on them, really raw, not in a broken skin, not in a scabbing way, but they're just so sensitive. And they stay sensitive for days, and eventually that goes away and does not really come back. Your nipples toughen up a little bit. They get a little bigger, as yours have done. They get your nipples acclimate to that kind of stimulation. And then you don't get that crazy sensation that you had in November and December where you used your nipple clamps and played and had great Orgasms. And then the next day, just your shirt moving against your nips was like, oh, my God. And it felt amazing. That goes away now. The problem you're having is just a Goldilocks problem. Too hard doesn't work, doesn't turn you on. Too soft, not enough. You're having a little trouble locating the just right. And that just requires more experimentation. You successfully wired your nipples. Nipple play now turns you on. You have to reinforce that wiring the new neural pathway that you have carved between your nipples, your brain and your dick. You need to reinforce that and it's really worth it. As you know, you've had some like intense and amazing orgasms when it's not just your dick that's engaged, but your nipples that are engaged and working hand in glove, hand and tit with your tits. And you can find that again. But it's going to take more experimentation. Might also help to do this with a partner, to turn your nipples over to somebody else and let them drive. But you're just having to find that sweet spot, that place that where it's not too hard, not too soft, where it's just right. And if you don't give up on your nipples, you will find that place. And it might be that you require a little bit of escalation, not of, you know, harder, tougher tit clamps, but just more and longer and extended play or mixing the clamps up or getting different kinds of clamps. Also experimenting, maybe depending how much money you're willing to sink into your nips in an E stim unit and blasting electricity through your tits safely, please consult the safety manuals. Yeah, you can do this. I've had partners that when I met them, they said, my tits don't do anything for me. Don't bother. And when I was through with them, one of whom I am actually not through with, but when I was through with them, yeah, they couldn't come without their tits being played with. I think that's the goal. I think you can get there. Good luck, Goldilocks.

[Caller or Listener]

Hi, I'm a 29 non binary, very female presenting person. And my question for you is that I am obsessed with bears. I love gay bears. I love the leather, I love the jeans and the boots. I love the whole culture. I am very kinky. Are there bisexual bears for me, where does this leave me? I often feel quite like an intruder. I don't know how to, like interact with these spaces. Am I allowed to interact with these spaces? Would I be welcome in these spaces because I like big fat Hairy men. And that's all there is to it.

[Dan Savage]

Dan, 16% of adults are obese. Not that there's anything wrong with that. 43% of adults classified as overweight. Wonder who's doing the classifications there. Would have to question them. But 43% classified as overweight. Not that there's anything wrong with that. You want to meet big fat hairy guys? Leave the house. You just have to go out into the world, get on the dating apps. You will meet big fat hairy guys because a lot of guys are overweight. A lot of guys are big. A certain percentage of those guys are hairy and will be into you because they are straight or bi. But that's not what you want. You want to walk in to a gay bar on a bear night and pick up a big fat hairy gay bear or bi bear. Yeah, there are some bisexual bears out there that you might encounter in a gay bar on a bear night. But by dint of being in the gay bar on a bear night, that bi bear is looking that night for dick. So he's probably not looking for you or interested in you at that moment. Would you be unwelcome in the gay bar on a bear night? Some people wouldn't want to see you there. Certainly most of the guys, overwhelming majority of the guys, wouldn't want to be fending off the attentions of some straight, non binary person who came into the bar looking for big fat hairy gay bear dick. That's not what they went out for. So while you might be welcomed by some, tolerated by others, if you got drunk and messy and started throwing yourself at guys at the bear night, you would probably not be welcomed for long. You might even be bounced from that bar. Your best bet, you say you really like gay culture. You say you really like the gay bear aesthetic. Find a big fat hairy straight guy or bi guy in the places where it's easier to find big fat hairy guys who are interested in women. And buy him the boots, buy him the Levi's, buy him the harness, play big fat hairy gay bear Ken doll with him, dress him up in and make him into the bear big fat hairy bear of your dreams in some gay coated accessories. And then maybe you and he can like go to some queer events, maybe you and he can go to some places where he can soak up the big fat hairy gay bear vibe and aesthetic and it becomes then for him maybe a little bit more integrate it into his personality in a way where it feels authentic to you and then he'll, he'll do and I Gotta say, you know, I've talked to some big fat hairy straight guys who really are envious of bear culture in the gay scene where there is this segment of the gay population that is really into their body type and there doesn't seem to be women out there who are as fetishistically enthusiastic about that body type, about their body type. These big fat hairy straight guys that I've talked to as they witness or perceive like certain segments of the gay community being excited about their body type when it comes when gay men have that body type. And so you might meet a guy who is just so psyched to be fetishized by you in the way that you clearly fetishize big fat hairy gay bears. But going to a big bear night as a non binary, very femme presenting assigned female at birth person and getting just being there. Yeah, you'll probably get some grief from a few people who are assholes who go out of their way to be assholes to people who they don't think belong gatekeepers who they don't think belong in the bar that night. But you'll definitely get grief and get pushback if you start hitting on the guys who are at the big gay bear night. So find yourself a big fat hairy straight guy. They are out there. There are a lot more of them out there. Find a big fat hairy straight guy and turn him into the big fat hairy gay bear of your dreams with one shopping trip to the gay harness shop. All right, time for listener feedback. First up, a few comments. Listeners left in the comment thread about last week's show at Savage Love says SF Mike. Okay, Dan, the name of the drugs you call M&MS, you need to learn how to pronounce them correctly. It's only been 20 years. SF Mike provides me with the phonetic spelling for misoprostol and mifepriston. I try, guys, I try. I really do. But there are some words that I read or read over and over again and heard those words in my head when I read them a certain way. And it is so hard for me not to pronounce them the way I heard them in my head. So these are two words I struggle to pronounce correctly. I take the issue very seriously, I think, as evidenced by my comments about M&MS. But I will, per Red Blonde's suggestion, put the phonetic pronunciations that SF Mike provided me on a post it note and stick it on the wall in the room where I usually record, says Ricks, 6 8. Regarding the birthday orgy, the caller whose husband was sad that no one made him come at his 8 person birthday org take the win As a member in good standing of The Bisexual Guild Number 3421 I agree with Dan. You are responsible for your own orgasm, especially in group play. Sex without orgasm is not necessarily a loss. So rather than pouting about your 6 to 8 person sexy friends not getting you off, be grateful that you have such fun intimate friends and then when you get home, fuck the shit out of each other. Excellent advice, says V. Thoky90. I agree, per Dan and Jill's conversation that women should feel safe, but posting about men approaching you in a bar has gotten out of hand. Gen Z women will call any man who tries to talk to them a creep and blast them on TikTok. My college sophomore son, who is one of the good guys, is afraid to even approach a woman at a party for fear that he will be publicly humiliated for seeming like a creep. If women are complaining that they can never meet a nice guy and this is why that comment from vthoki90 kicked off a convo, a really interesting one. Check it out at Savage Love under last week's show Notes all right, if you've got something to say about something I said on this week's show, you can jump into the comment thread and be sure your comment is heard or read. Or you can call us at 206-302-2064 or email us a voice memo at Qavage Love. But while every comment left at the website gets up and seen, we can only play a few of your comment calls on the show, which we are about to do. Because this week, like every week, Savage Love listeners who left voicemails on our answering machine about last week's show get to have the last word on this week's show.

[Caller or Listener]

Hi team. This is a comment for the woman in episode 1017 who's poly and dating a guy and got broken up with. The one thing that Dan, you didn't address is that this is someone who is a lying liar who lies that you caught in a lie. And whether it was something born out of trauma or something else, I would say that feeling confident that he wasn't seeing anyone else while he was dating you. Things like that, going out of town randomly and then coming back and dumping you, especially right after you caught him in a lie, is a pretty clear indicator that he was a little embarrassed and you caught him in something where he probably didn't see that as a way to like a path forward for the two of you I would say that if someone is giving you every indicator that they are a person who is not truthful, I would say don't believe what they say and move on.

[Listener comment on previous episode]

Hi Dan, I wanted to thank you for that interview you had with Jill on the last episode and creating space for that conversation about the rape academy. I think the caller who had a fight with her boyfriend should have him listen to that entire interview and maybe reframe their discussion around threat and around empathy. So it sounds like both of them are perceiving some level of threat. Him, he's perceiving the threat around his reputation, his career, and for her, it's the threat of physical safety, not just out in the world, but in her own house, in her own bed, and that collective threat that women have experienced again for centuries. And so I feel like the language I would want to use is like I'm having to take on the weight of knowing I cannot be safe anywhere, including with my committed partner, if it's a man. And you are asking me to have empathy for and center your fear of your reputation and career being threatened. And those are not equal threats.

[Caller or Listener]

Hi, this is a comment for the person who went to an orgy with their husband and neither of you orgasmed. I mean, that's a really sad story and I've never been to an orgy before, so whatever Dan said sounds right to me. But surely you could have gotten each other off. Like I hope that happened.

[Dan Savage]

And we are going to leave it there. Got a sex problem? Got a relationship problem? Got a comment for us? Us? Go to Savage Love Askdan to record and upload your question or your comment directly onto our website. Or you can record a voice memo and email it to us at Qavage Love. Or you can give us a call at 206-302-2064. And hey, if you tried something new and you want to share all the dirty details with me and my listeners, send us an email to Qavage Love. Let us know what you tried, and you might be my next guest on After Action Report. Eugene, Austin, Cincinnati and Palm Springs. The best dirty little film festival in the world, the Hump Film Festival, is in you this weekend. Screenings in Amsterdam later this month are sold out. Tickets are going fast for Hump screenings in Berlin at the end of the month. Get your tickets [e-mail] and while you are there, even better than Hump being in your town, you can be in Hump. Click on submit to find out how to get your dirty little film into our dirty little film festival. There's no charge to enter hump. And even better, if your film makes it into the festival, we send you a check. Follow me at blueskyansavage Follow me on Instagram ansavage Follow Jackie Cation on Instagram at Jackie Cation that's J A C K I E K A S H H I A N For tour dates and more, go to her website Jackiecation.com and watch her new and hilarious special altercation on YouTube. Now. The Savage Love Cast is produced every week by Nancy Hartunian and me and Nancy and the tech savvy at risk youth. We will all be back at you next week with another installment of the Savage Lovecast. Thank you for downloading. This episode of the Savage Love Cast is brought to you by Load Boost by VB Health. Load Boost is a supplement designed to improve the taste, the volume and the overall health of your semen. If you're already putting in the work, why not make your performance unforgettable? Made in the USA NSF certified and produced in an FDA registered facility. Thousands of guys across 50 states and 45 countries swear by Load Boost. If you want bigger finishes and better reviews from your audiences. If you want better taste, better mouthfeel, better, go to loadboost.com today and use code savage for 10% off or click the link in this week's episode description. That's loadboost.com and use offer Code Savage.