Being a Christian Influencer Is Weird.

Summary

Podcast Summary: Saved Not Soft

Episode: "Being a Christian Influencer is Weird"

Host: Emmy Moore
Guest: Malik Moore
Date: June 24, 2026

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Overview

This episode revolves around the unique challenges and nuances of being a young Christian influencer in today's culture. Emmy and Malik, speaking candidly from their experience as a married couple active in both online ministry and social media, discuss the burden and responsibility of spiritual leadership, the differences between Christian influencers and ministers with influence, and the danger of prioritizing platform over faithful shepherding. The conversation is filled with scriptural grounding, vivid examples, personal admissions, and practical advice to anyone feeling called to lead, influence, or minister online or offline.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction & Setting the Scene

[00:00–03:12]

• Emmy and Malik record together in their new home, highlighting their journey as a couple navigating Christian life and ministry.
• Playful banter about high school dances, cultural shifts, and “leaving room for Jesus” sets a warm, candid tone.

Quote:

"We live here together. Yes. In our first ever home." – Emmy [00:24]

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2. The Heart of the Episode: Young Leadership in Faith

[03:12–06:47]

• Emmy introduces the episode's theme: leading while young, stewarding influence, and how much compassion matters in Christian leadership.
• Both express humility about their age (24 and 26) and evolving understanding of ministry.

Quote:

"There's so much more to be learned. And the Lord is cultivating us." – Emmy [04:56]

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3. Opening Prayer for Would-Be Leaders

[06:48–10:30]

• Malik and Emmy offer a heartfelt prayer for listeners who feel burdened for influence, leadership, or starting ministry—even in small, local contexts.
• Emphasis on doing ministry out of love for God's people, not for platform or personal gain.

Notable Moment:

"Lord, will you build up sons and daughters that love you and want to serve your church, not just a building, but a people." – Malik [07:49]

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4. Personal Journeys into Christian Influence & Ministry

[11:39–19:52]

• Malik: Social media journey started post-college after feeling called by God; intentional about bearing fruit and making Christ visible in all his content.
• Emmy: Unexpected early social media success; viral moments as a teenager, only later experiencing a call to Jesus and deeper purpose. She reflects on her content evolution, her testimony, and the sanctification that comes with public spiritual growth.

Quotes:

“I wanted to do something in a way to where people can see God in me. ... I want to bear good fruits while I'm doing social media.” – Malik [12:40]
“The Lord would just always bless influence on my life. ... For me, I think influence wasn't something that was necessarily asked for, but I just made for it.” – Emmy [21:46]

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5. Ministry Versus Influence: Definitions and Dilemmas

[28:14–34:59]

• Discusses the tension: Are they influencers who happen to be Christians, or ministers with influence using digital platforms?
• Emphasis that brand deals fund their work, but their hearts are committed to ministry.
• Bemoan the trend of equating audience size with qualification for greater ministry or authorship.

Quotes:

"I think the thing that separates the two is compassion for the sheep, like leading sheep." – Malik [29:15]
"Just because I have so many million streams on my podcast doesn't mean I should write a book. I feel like I just got here." – Emmy [32:38]

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6. Navigating Social Media Evangelism

[34:59–41:17]

• Advice for Christians afraid of sharing their faith online for fear of losing followers or being put in a teacher’s position.
• Importance of making Christ known without self-appointed authority unless truly called.

Quotes:

“Talking about Jesus online should have no pressure tied to it for you to preach about the gospel.” – Emmy [36:55]
“If you're ashamed of me on earth, I will be ashamed of you in heaven. And the Lord wants us to speak on him.” – Malik [41:04]

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7. The Dangers of Premature Leadership and Self-Promotion

[42:27–58:54]

• Cautioned against becoming teachers or preachers by self-appointment or social media hype, rather than true calling and preparation.
• Shared scriptural examples: Moses and Paul as models of burdened leadership.
• Big warning against selfish ambition and ministry becoming an idol or source of self-worth.

Quotes:

“I do not encourage premature leadership. I do not encourage being a faster speaker than a faster listener.” – Emmy [27:12] “I am becoming scared that people only want to preach because it's effective and not because they want to be faithful.” – Emmy [51:17] “The biggest temptation that leaders will face in ministry is the temptation for them to make it about themselves.” – Emmy [92:48]

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8. Scriptural Deep Dives on Shepherding & Influence

[45:26–80:43]

• Exploration of Moses as the archetype of a burdened, authentic leader.
• Reading and unpacking of Numbers 11, Ezekiel 34—God’s strong rebuke for selfish, negligent shepherds.
• The difference between being effective and being faithful; the necessity of real compassion for God’s people.
• Warning that true leadership carries a cost: “a daily funeral” of dying to oneself for the sake of the sheep.

Quotes:

“If you are called to ministry, your qualification is a burden, and it’s a burden for God’s sheep.” – Emmy [94:44] “Every pastor... qualifies by having a deep burdening for the sheep.” – Emmy [46:01]
“I believe it is satanic to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ for self gain.” – Emmy [64:32]

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9. Practical Leadership: Faithfulness, Burden, and Influence

[80:43–96:06]

• Leaders must nourish their flock, not “slaughter” or use them (Ezekiel 34).
• Emphasis on stewardship—leaders will answer to God for their care of His people.
• The burden of ministry is “death to self”; quoting Luke 9, the cost is real and ongoing.

Quotes:

“Like everyone wants to do ministry until you have to get to a point to where you're dying to yourself.” – Malik [84:29]
“If Jesus, the ultimate good shepherd, lays his life down for the sheep, how much more should I?” – Emmy [91:48]

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10. Memorable & Candid Moments

• Emmy’s struggle with her hair during recording: humor breaking heavy moments [10:33, 96:56]
• Repeated jokes about their “digital footprints” and early internet cringe [14:46, 23:35]
• Warm marital interaction adds authenticity and approachability.

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Key Timestamps for Major Segments

• Introduction & Banter: [00:00–03:12]
• Main Topic Announced – Leading Young: [03:12–06:47]
• Opening Prayer: [06:48–10:30]
• Personal Influencer Journeys: [11:39–19:52]
• Ministry vs. Influence Discussion: [28:14–34:59]
• Navigating Social Media as Christians: [34:59–41:17]
• Warnings about Premature/Public Leadership: [42:27–58:54]
• Scriptural Foundations of Shepherding: [45:26–80:43]
• Stewardship and Leadership Practicalities: [80:43–96:06]
• Closing, Resources, and Future Episodes: [96:06–end]

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Notable Quotes

• “We can't make ministry about us. It is about one man, and his name is Jesus.” – Emmy [92:49]
• “If you don’t get anything from this podcast, please get this: if you are called to ministry, your qualification is a burden, and it's a burden for God's sheep.” – Emmy [94:44]
• “Jesus says that I am the bread of life... there’s a deep longing in your soul that only I can fulfill.” – Malik [63:25]

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Episode Takeaways

• Compassion is the litmus test for ministry.
  Authentic Christian leadership is always about loving and nourishing God's people—not building a platform or gaining influence for oneself.

• Discerning your calling is essential.
  Not all Christian influencers are called to be teachers or preachers. Be sensitive to God’s timing, avoid premature public ministry, and remain humble.

• Stewardship is weighty.
  Every leader will be held accountable for how they've shepherded God's flock—with Ezekiel 34 as a sobering scriptural anchor.

• Boldly, but wisely, own your faith online.
  It's not about numbers, but faithfulness. Lead in your lane, and let brand deals, creativity, and modern tools serve evangelism, not supplant it.

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For Further Reflection

Emmy plans to bring on more experienced pastors to speak into the lives of young leaders and influencers in future episodes. They invite prayer, reflection, and engagement from listeners—especially those discerning their own pathway to spiritual leadership in a digital age.

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Next Steps:

• Visit Malik’s podcast “Behold Him” and the Paul to Movement, especially for young men.
• Join Save Society for online discipleship and community (women-oriented).
• Connect, pray for Emmy & Malik, and consider their invitation for future episodes and ministry involvement.

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Transcript

[Emmy]

Hello, hello you guys, and welcome back to SAVE Tonight. Stop. What's going on everybody? What's going on today? What's going on tonight? What's going on in the evening? What's going on in the morning? What's going on to what? Every time you're listening to it's nice

[Malik]

for us, it is night.

[Emmy]

Hey, you're here.

[Malik]

I am here. You're here.

[Emmy]

You live here.

[Malik]

I do live here.

[Emmy]

We live here together. Yes. In our first ever home.

[Malik]

Yeah. This is our first episode together in our home.

[Emmy]

Yes, it is. And we always film kind of sporadically, like we never film in order. This is also the first time filming on our new blue couch. We got this yesterday.

[Malik]

Yeah. So like lengthy.

[Emmy]

Yes. It's actually like a ten foot couch. Really wide.

[Malik]

Like we're a good for a good distance apart.

[Emmy]

Lots of room for Jesus.

[Malik]

Lots of room for Jesus. Like some school dancing.

[Emmy]

Lots of room.

[Malik]

Like, hey, leave room for Jesus. Yeah.

[Emmy]

You know what? At least we were considerate of him back then. Glory to God.

[Malik]

Now everybody just ratchet just out there. What? Doing the thing.

[Emmy]

What are you talking about?

[Malik]

I'm just thinking about high school.

[Emmy]

Oh, you're thinking about high school?

[Malik]

Yeah. High school was people wasland there thinking about like, like dances in the 80s. I don't know, I just can see them like, hey, we're dancing like this, right?

[Emmy]

Versus high school. It's like the culture you're in is just so. It's like a club.

[Malik]

No, it.

[Emmy]

It's like they want to get down.

[Malik]

Yeah. I don't know how we got to the wave of like we're all jumping in.

[Emmy]

Remember what we were talking about? How Cuz you went to high school here in Florida. Partially.

[Malik]

Yeah.

[Emmy]

And you always went to the dances. You went to prom. You went to formal. Like you would go to the actual dances. Right. That's just not a thing where I'm from.

[Malik]

But you didn't have.

[Emmy]

Remember, babe, I told you that we would rent out a party bus and we want to go to the dance. We would just have the party bus. Yeah.

[Malik]

The California thing.

[Emmy]

I don't know, but people would. I don't know if this is like all over, but we would never go to the dance. We would just go on a party bus and wildly.

[Malik]

Oh.

[Emmy]

Like I wasn't as violent as some of the other people, but I am embarrassed, right? Absolutely. Why aren't you saying anything?

[Malik]

Because I'm just thinking like what a time. Yes, but the Lord has saved us.

[Emmy]

Correct. By the blood.

[Malik]

By the blood of the lamb.

[Emmy]

Yes. And we're okay.

[Malik]

Thank you.

[Emmy]

But you know what we remember?

[Malik]

We remember.

[Emmy]

We remember where we came from, where

[Malik]

we used to be.

[Emmy]

Yes.

[Malik]

Because he brought us out of Egypt.

[Emmy]

You don't know if there's a 15 year old being ratchet in high school right now listening to this, so please come in. Kindness. You just don't know that.

[Malik]

Lord, touch him. Touch all the high school.

[Emmy]

Be serious.

[Malik]

Okay, okay, let me stop.

[Emmy]

Be serious. I'm like, there's real people in need.

[Malik]

No, there is.

[Emmy]

And they're gonna receive.

[Malik]

They need Jesus and they're gonna receive Jesus.

[Emmy]

But we're not talking about that.

[Malik]

We're not. Tell them what you're talking about.

[Emmy]

I was gonna tell you.

[Malik]

Oh, you're me. Tell them.

[Emmy]

Oh, you said it first.

[Malik]

You can tell them.

[Emmy]

We're going to be talking about leading young.

[Malik]

Yes.

[Emmy]

And all that entails within it. I think this has been a conversation, kind of like all jokes aside, that Malik and I have been talking about for a very, very. And I mean very long time. I think this is like one of my top 10 topics to talk about, period.

[Malik]

Yeah.

[Emmy]

Is young leadership, what it's like to leave ministry at such a young age. And also just what ministry looks like, who we're doing it for. Obviously Jesus, but seems like some people don't get that. And I think we really just want to create a space to talk about things like influence and positions and how to manage it and steward it well. And more importantly, to just bring so much compassion into the topic. I think sometimes people can make this conversation very logistical. Not saying that it's not, because I think there are areas where there could be a lot of technicality and strategy, of course. But I believe that the Lord has a heart for shepherds. And I believe that the Lord wants us to always operate from this position out of kindness, compassion. And so I wanted to create a safe space regarding that. As a full disclaimer. Malik and I. I'm 24, he's 26. We're incredibly young. We do not know everything.

[Malik]

We do not.

[Emmy]

And there is not going to be a position that we hold on this podcast that's ever. We host the most amount of wisdom ever. And I'm not pre referencing this because, you know, I'm about to say something out of pocket. I'm saying that because we've been talking about that too. We've been. You see me inhale my hair?

[Malik]

Yeah, your hair is just.

[Emmy]

I was like, what's going on? We've been talking about how Sometimes we'll go to conferences or just we'll see people online, preach. And sometimes they'll pre reference thing, reference things. And we're like, oh my gosh, when someone pre referenced something like that, they're gonna say something out of pocket. But that's not why we're pre facing things. We're pre facing things because we understand even as leaders that everything that God has in store for us to learn and to teach on that's going to come over time. And I think it would be so sweet to just clip this, almost like timestamp, this point of our, of our lives, 24 and 26 years old, to be like, this is how we're leading people right now. This is how we're leading this next generation, our current generation, and simultaneously holding the awareness that there's so much more to be learned. And the Lord is cultivating us. And I believe he has us here for a reason. And I believe that there is so much more that the Lord has for us, but I don't even think it has more to do with us. I think it has everything more to do with him just revealing himself and us being beneficiaries of that and just sharing it with other people because we love him. So, yeah, we're really excited to talk about this. I would really love to pray for the audience. I would also love to pray for people who are burdened for influence, burden for leadership, burden. And when I mean like influence and leadership, I'm not even just saying social media status or a platform or pulpit. If you want to be like a young adult, small group leader or if you're cultivating a Bible study or if you want to start a worship night or start something in your small city and go on being glorified in your small town. Like, I want to pray for people who have a burden to lead and to reveal Jesus to people who would just have a heart to gather the sheep. So I really just want to pray for that. And we could talk about what we're going to talk about.

[Malik]

Yeah.

[Emmy]

Want to lead us in?

[Malik]

Yeah, let's do it.

[Emmy]

Okay.

[Malik]

Lord, we thank you for this day. Lord, we thank you for allowing us to be in this space to where we can host your presence, even to those who are watching. Lord, would you touch their hearts and touch their minds? Lord, we are praying specifically for those who have been looking for your heart, Jesus. And we know that as we look for our heart, you, you tell us what we're called to. You give us the burden for people. And through that Lord, you trust us with a certain amount of influence to reach those people. So Lord, I speak to the person on the other side of the screen who may be longing for anything other than you, Lord, Will you break, break it off of their life and then also show them who you are? Yes, Lord. Allow people to see Jesus in a new way. Holy Spirit, when you encounter your sons and your daughters, Lord God, we pray over the people who want to be small group leaders, who want influence, who are looking to start on social media. Lord, I ask that you give them a grace and a compassion for those specific sheep that. That you're calling them, to allow them not to operate in their own fleshly desires and not for what they can get out of it, Lord, but truly because they love your people and they want to serve you. Lord, will you build up sons and daughters that love you and want to serve your church, not just a building, but a people, Lord God, I ask that you just begin to speak and encounter those people in dreams and visions, Lord, Would you convict their hearts, Lord, so they can know that you are the one that is sending them and it's not them just doing it. Allow your sons and daughters to rest in that favor. To rest in that favor, Lord, in

[Emmy]

Jesus name, I pray in Jesus name, Lord, we just thank you for the people on the other side of the screen that you love so passionately and intimately, Lord. Lord, I pray that one thing is known throughout all of this. This is that you are intimately and purposely know knowing your people, that you are a father who knows their children, that you are not a distant father, that you are a God that waits on the porch. And I just pray that through this episode that leaders that feel incredibly burdened or alone know that there's a God who sees them, hears them and loves them, Lord. Lord, we ask that through the entirety of this podcast that you use us as vessels of your wisdom and that, Lord, you're able to just express yourself and show yourself. Let your glory be known here, Lord. Lord, I ask that you give us a fear for the scriptures, that you give us a fear for what you say and that more importantly, Jesus, we pursue you with all intentionality to give you glory for the gospel to be preached, and more importantly, Lord, for us to just love you and receive your love. Thank you, Lord, that the mission of all of this is to find the love of Jesus and just simply to love him back. And I pray that we're just as great of receivers than we are givers. And I pray that when it comes from receiving Your love, receiving, your compassion for your sheep, receiving everything of what you want to give onto us. We could steward it with such excellence, Lord. So, Lord, speak to the people on the other side of this screen. Show them that they are loved and adored by you. And that there's a mission, a great commission for each and every single one of us. And fan the flame. Fan the flame on the inside of us, Lord. Yeah, that's my prayer. And keep us. Keep our leaders, Lord. In Jesus name, Amen.

[Malik]

Amen.

[Emmy]

Amen. You want to know something?

[Malik]

What?

[Emmy]

I don't know if I just, like, curls my hair weird, but it's like going like.

[Malik]

Oh, like it's in your mouth.

[Emmy]

It's like in my mouth. It's tickling my nose, and I'm just kind of like, what's happening?

[Malik]

It's like, hi, I'm here.

[Emmy]

Yeah, but, you know, I don't want to tuck my hair behind my ears because I have an ear slit. My lobe got split. Your lobe? My lobe is split, bro.

[Malik]

That's such a funny.

[Emmy]

Well, no, it's not fully split. It's like. I don't know what happened. I. I don't really wear that much of heavy earrings. I think it got tugged and it went down. But yeah, okay, let's not talk about that. We just prayed I would really, we could really just pick up this conversation wherever we want. I think one of the things that is very obvious to people who are probably watching is that we have been in this influencer minister space, Christian space, for some time now. We're in it married. We were in it separately, and possibly we could just kind of break down, you know, what is our stories.

[Malik]

Yes.

[Emmy]

You know, just kind of how we got here and then possibly just like, what we've learned. I'm really just expecting the Holy Spirit

[Malik]

to just show up.

[Emmy]

Yeah.

[Malik]

I mean, I can. I could just start.

[Emmy]

Yeah.

[Malik]

So I've been doing social media for about a few years, and it started when I was about to graduate college, and I didn't know what I was going to do. I was a senior at scu and I thought the Lord was calling me to go be an MD at a church. And I went to fly out to go to some churches to really see if it was a good fit. But then I just felt the Lord tell me social media. At the time, I was doing content with some people and signed to their agency. And right out of college, I just felt the urge. I felt the Lord tell me to do that. And I was like, okay. I started doing Social media, brand new, Started on zero, on everything. Didn't know nothing about social media. When I say didn't have YouTube, didn't have anything. And I worked. I worked at social media, and the Lord just kind of helped me grow it to where it is now. I really grinded every single day, like posting every day, like, you know, doing everything I was supposed to, posting on TikTok. And, you know, through that, I was doing a lot of stuff on TikTok live stream. And, you know, it got to a point in when I was doing social media that it wasn't that I wasn't doing it for God, but there were just some convictions of like, okay, I need to do something different because I didn't want to. I didn't just want to just make content for the sake of making content. I wanted to do something in a way to where people can see God in me. And the thing that I used to always tell myself is, you know, people would know me by the fruits that I bear, and I want to bear good fruits while I'm doing social media online, because this is a tool and an evangelism tool for people to see Jesus. So even stepping into, you know, doing social media, that was kind of the foundation that I had. And the Lord just took me more on my journey of social media to where I am now, just, you know, doing more lifestyle stuff. People love our marriage. How I surprise you, how I do certain things for our family, but then also just being a man of God. And I think I've gotten a lot of DMs just through not only how I serve you, but also how I steward my own life when it comes to the music that I put out and what the Lord is teaching me and just being faithful in those things. I feel like my journey when it comes to social media has come a long way. We joke about this all the time, but we're like, me and you both have just a crazy digital footprint. Yes. I was like, I used to be making, like, some cringy videos and.

[Emmy]

And this is not an encouragement to find them.

[Malik]

Yeah, yeah. No, no, no, no. Don't go. Don't go do that.

[Emmy]

Don't go do that.

[Malik]

Don't go do that. But this is. This is our testimony, you know?

[Emmy]

Yeah. It's true. We can't erase it.

[Malik]

No. And I feel like the Lord has just done work in. In maturing me when it comes to stewarding the space and. And leading. Well.

[Emmy]

Yeah.

[Malik]

For other people to also benefit from that, because it's really not, you Know, for us, like, we have fun while we make it, but I really am like, okay, it's for the people who are watching. Consumers.

[Emmy]

Absolutely. Yeah. And then I think also something that's really big that you left out is that you live, breathe, bathe, ministry your entire life.

[Malik]

Yeah.

[Emmy]

I think that's, like, super important for you to talk about. Like, hey, I actually grew up in the chur. I'm a pk, and this is something kind of I've always known, growing up in the church. When did you finally feel the shift of. I grew up in ministry. This is kind of the air that I breathe. It's kind of like my normal versus. Oh, no. Like, the Lord has really burdened me to just be a leader and a light to other people. Like, when did you feel that shift?

[Malik]

That's a great question. I feel like I felt the shift possibly when we first met for the first time. Like

[Emmy]

Passion?

[Malik]

Yes.

[Emmy]

At Passion.

[Malik]

Yes.

[Emmy]

When we first met at Passion.

[Malik]

Yes.

[Emmy]

Wow, the anointing.

[Malik]

Wow. The anointing. I don't know. There was. There was. There was something that just felt like it was shift when it comes to. Not only that, like, we met there, but also I met a lot of people there. That was just, like, encouraging.

[Emmy]

Yeah.

[Malik]

Like, me and, like, what I did, and they were just. They've watched, and I was like, oh, people are, like, watching me. Even, like, running into people in person. Like, that was not a thing. Like, that was. That's very weird. Like, oh, you know me from your phone.

[Emmy]

You know what I mean? Yeah.

[Malik]

Um, I think that was the thing physically. I feel like physically that showed me like, oh, there's a shift happening. It's not that I'm just doing ministry, but I'm becoming a pillar of this generation for people to look at and to follow. And this is something that I have to walk in in such reverence.

[Emmy]

Yeah.

[Malik]

And I feel like a lot of people get into the position of they just care about themselves. But now I'm like, okay, not only am I just doing stuff for me, I'm also doing it for people. And people are watching me as I do things and not saying that I conform to people. But it's like, as a leader, I feel like I have just a job to make sure I'm not just talking about anything and not just doing anything and just putting anything out because they're. They're a real life lives and sheep watching. And I think that was. That was just a shift for me.

[Emmy]

Yeah, I think that's so important because I think that's kind of a transition that I think every person who grows up in ministry probably goes through to where it's like, oh, I'm like, might be carrying, you know, my family's faith, my church's faith. And then there's a moment where you're like, oh, no. Like, the Lord has called me specifically me to do something. So I think that's like super important and I think people need to hear that. I don't know if I've really shared my ins and outs of my relationship with social media, let alone this podcast. I think I have in a few posts. I did in my testimony and I took down my testimony video because I'm needing to refilm it. I didn't tell and share my testimony in the greatest heart. And that was something the Lord really convicted me of. But as far as my relationship with social media, I have been on social media for the past. Well, since I was about 16. So it's eight years I've been consecutively on social media. As far as being an influencer, I was on social media of course, way before that. But to where I received kind of this title of influencer. I've been on it for the past eight years. And I came to Jesus seven, six. Seven years ago. And when I posted on social media for the first time, we went viral. It was for a dancing video that I posted on Twitter during the time. And this is when it was like so hard to go viral on Twitter. And my, my. I almost said tick tock. My Twitter video went ape.

[Malik]

Yeah, Literally wild.

[Emmy]

It literally was everywhere. I did a dance at my high school. I think this song by Drake and Amigos came out and was like walking. Like, I took it and the shoot just came out. And I was like, I'm about to hit this mug. And I did. I got invited to like 578cookouts.

[Malik]

Cookout. The cookout.

[Emmy]

I was getting like Brandy and I was like 16 and I was like, wow, this is so crazy. But this is when, you know, this is when, like, influencers weren't really a thing. This is when vine kind of passed away. And we see like the King Batches and the Lily Ponds and like the Logan Pauls and the Jake Pauls and you're like. Or the Nash Greer and the Cameron Dallas, the Magcon. And you know, there's. I think they were kind of like the stepping stool of like what influencers were going to start to look like. And when my video blew up, people just started following me and I was like, oh, My gosh. And all of my stuff started getting. Getting recognized, and I was like, this is nuts. So I kept making content. And my journey in high school was a little tough, so I wasn't necessarily doing it as much I could or should be, but I was having people send me stuff, and it was, like, really fun in high school. And then I graduated that next year. And I remember I downloaded TikTok when I was 17, and it was like the week after I graduated. And my friend was like, you really need to get on this app. I got all these followers, et cetera. And I was like, oh, that sounds like. Right?

[Malik]

And.

[Emmy]

And I was like, what do I want my first post to be? And my first post was a story time of something terrible I did. And I. Not even something terrible. I did just like. Just like high school lore, you know?

[Malik]

Yeah.

[Emmy]

And I posted on TikTok, and I woke up the next morning, and I had a million views.

[Malik]

Oh, my God.

[Emmy]

And I had, like, 10,000 followers. And I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, what's happening? This is, like, so crazy. And I haven't met the Lord at this point, and when I look back, I just see it was his hand on influence all along. Because I wouldn't try for social media, but one way or another, the Lord would just always bless influence on my life. It was never something I ever asked for. You know, this is kind of a side note, but I was thinking about when I was just getting ready and I was speaking to the Lord, I was like, you know what, Lord? I've never prayed for influence. I've never been like, lord, give me influence. Lord, would you just give me a people. Would you just give me more views? Would you just, like, bring pe. I've never prayed anything like that. Like, the Lord was really just sharing that with me. And I was like, do you know what I've prayed for? Lord, let your gospel be known. Let your gospel be the most influential thing that mankind has ever seen. And I think that. And I'm not saying that the Lord doesn't give in accordance to your prayers. I believe that the Lord gives what he wants for each and every single individual's life. And for me, I think influence wasn't something that was necessarily asked for, but I just made for it. And I believe that was the grace of God. And so when I came to the Lord when I was 17, literally just a few weeks before I turned 18, I was still doing social media. Didn't know my relationship in it, because I was still going through so Much sanctification. And I'm just like, okay, Lord, I don't know what this looks like. And then also, I didn't really care either. I'm still just, like, figuring everything out. And I was making story time videos for a long time. Covid hit. Then I started making fashion content. And then the fashion content bled into kind of Christian content. And then now I'm just kind of. It was a slow burn to where I'm at. Slow convictions. I was even looking the other night. I stayed up really late, and I was just going through my camera roll and I looked at myself even from 2021, and I was like, oh, my gosh. I was debaucherous. Like, you want to talk about a digital footprint?

[Malik]

Oh, my goodness.

[Emmy]

Mine was so bad. And I just look at it. I was like, yeah, I was wilding, like, no wonder why. Like, some of my family members like, hey, yo, like, what you doing? I look back and I was like, hey, yo, what was. What was I doing? Why was I wearing that? Why did I post that?

[Malik]

Right?

[Emmy]

Like, that's nuts. It's like, just stuff like, you don't think about that. Kind of like you're adolescents. Rebellious in high school. Yeah, like, high school. Going into, like, college years. I didn't go to college, but that was kind of like my sanctification process. Like, I met the Lord, I loved him, and he had to wash me out, this lukewarmness. And I'm sad that, you know, the Internet kind of had to see that. But simultaneously, it's humbling and it's sobering because I believe the Lord uses people to grow in front of others, to show, like, hey, you just don't get, like, this whole Christian Christianity thing down in, like, a lickety split. Like, it takes time. And for me, where I'm very proud of the life that we live and the integrity that we hold and the purification that we walk in, I see things when I was just back and I'm. I'm reminded of how lost I was and how gracious God was and bringing me out. And, yeah, I think my relationship, even with the podcast, I had gotten a word at Passion as well.

[Malik]

Yeah.

[Emmy]

That I was going to be teaching and preaching the word of God. And I was like, you know what? I don't like that prophetic word because I don't want to do that. Like, the prophetic word that was spoken over me was specifically that the mantle of Joyce Myers would be passed down on to me influence wise. And I was like, I don't know Who Joyce Myers is. Who is that?

[Malik]

Right.

[Emmy]

I don't know who that is. And we actually have very, very similar testimonies. And when I was told that, I remember being like, lord, this is my first time encountering prophecy. And do you want me to preach? Like, I want to do fashion. I want to make my own line. I want to be comfortable and make all my influencer content and go on these brand trips. And you want me to, like, preach? Like, are you sure? I'd love your word? Of course. But I'm. I'm not, like, eager to preach, you know? And I remember as the Lord, I said, lord, this is your will for my life. I pray that you will give me a burning desire that will never quench. And I slowly started seeing and experiencing that burn. To preach like, this urgency to preach and teach the gospel and like the gifting to retain Scripture. I'm reminded of Romans 12, where it says, like, gifts are given onto us due to the grace of God. Like, the reason as to why we have gifts is because of the selective grace that God has for us. And I'm not saying selective grace. Like, God has more grace for a person, less grace for a person. I mean, there was, like, specifications in grace. Like, just like how we have friends who have different giftings and different things, and they operate in different lanes apart from us. Like, those are specifications of grace. And the Lord has given me a spe. A specific aspect of grace to teach, minister, and obtain, and quite literally soak in his word like a sponge and release it onto all of those who are just willing to hear and be receptive to the word of God and to reach the loss and to bring them home. And it's not by my might, by the Lord's might. And so that's just been kind of the journey. And I started this podcast in 2022, and, you know, I wish I started later. I always talk about that. I wish I took more time to just, like, really be developed by the Lord because I had to go through so much fire to get here.

[Malik]

Yes.

[Emmy]

I do not encourage premature leadership. I do not encourage being a faster speaker than a faster listener. And I think that's something I've just humbly learned over time and mic'd up to confess all my problems and where I messed up for a generation to learn. Of course, that's always the integrity behind it, but that was just kind of my start. And there's so many things that I've learned just being in ministry, especially going. And I want to talk about this Because I think we're in a very nuanced space that a lot of people don't have language for. Malik and I are in a space to where, yes, we minister and we preach and teach the word of God. We have gone all over the world. We have gone all over the country. We have gone to so many churches, had the pleasure to walk alongside the local church and preach and minister the gospel. And we have this very specific lane that the Lord has put us in where we're doing this whole influencer thing

[Malik]

and what that looks like influencing and also influencing.

[Emmy]

Doing this. And what does that look like? Like, what is this kind of, like, influencing Christianity that we see? And what is the difference between a Christian influencer and a Christian minister that just has influence?

[Malik]

Yeah.

[Emmy]

And where do you think we're at on that spectrum?

[Malik]

It's. It's a really good question because I see you have the people who are Christian and have influence, you know, they're on the platform and they just love God. But then you also have people on the other side who do ministry and have influence. And, you know, I think about the paries. Like, I love the paries. Like, they're. They do ministry and have influence. And I feel like we're kind of in the middle. It's like. Because, like, we. We do that, and we also, like, still do brand deals and still promote products that people send us, you know, and do the whole thing.

[Emmy]

Yeah. Like, that's our job.

[Malik]

Yeah, that's our job. And I think the thing that separates the two is compassion for the sheep, like leading sheep. I think when it comes to being a minister of the gospel and having influence, you're cognitive of the sheep that you're leading you. You know who's in your demographics, you know who's watching you, and you know what to say.

[Emmy]

Yeah.

[Malik]

And I feel like for those who are just Christians with influence, you. You're also. I feel like it's different because you're pre. You're kind of just posting from a point of wanting to show people the fruits of Jesus, if that makes sense.

[Emmy]

Like almost like mundane evangelism.

[Malik]

Yes.

[Emmy]

To where it's like, I'm not putting myself as a preacher or a teacher.

[Malik]

Yes.

[Emmy]

But I am cognitive enough to know that I have influence and I'm wanting to make my content surround him.

[Malik]

Yes. And doing it the best you know how.

[Emmy]

Yeah.

[Malik]

And showing people who Jesus is.

[Emmy]

Yeah. I think that's something. I'm really interested about this topic because I think there is so much nuance in it. And I think our generation also kind of doesn't understand it as well. And I think that there has been many nuances to Christianity. I think it's the same reason as to how there was TV ministry before we've seen it on social media. There's so many people who have grown into a influential statue, a place of ministry because of television. I think of people like, you know, we know Pastor Ron Carpenter, we know Benny Hinn. Like we know like a lot of these people who have just done like oh my gosh, who am I?

[Malik]

Juanita, we need to buynum.

[Emmy]

Yes. Like where so many people that we've just like seen old sermons of like this was really gas. Like even revivalists and evangelists like Billy Graham and all these people that we've just seen kind of in this influential has some sort of like tie to like reach the loss, but has like this very, very big influence and like how to manage that. And I think we're seeing that now with more people because social media reaches any and everybody you wanted to. And I think it's good to have conversations like this so we could kind of like delegate. Okay, what's the difference between an influencer that's just Christian and a person who is intentionally posting to teach, to preach, to minister the gospel of Jesus Christ. And I think where we sit on this pendulum, to answer my own question, is our job. Our job practically. Like in a practical sense, how we can afford our home, how we bought this couch, like how we just make our money because we have to work for our wages and put a roof over ads and be adults is we get that through brand deals. But simultaneously we give our hearts to ministry. And I could speak for the both of us. We have complete hopes and desires to fully be in full time ministry one day.

[Malik]

Yes.

[Emmy]

We are in our young 20s. We should have jobs like this. I don't want to be a lead pastor. I know you don't either. Imagine being a lead pastor of a church right now. It's like that's, that's just not where the Lord has us. It's like we want to work and when the Lord pushes us in ministry, he will fully push us in ministry.

[Malik]

But we do believe like one day that's going to happen.

[Emmy]

Oh yeah.

[Malik]

But it's like it's going to equip us.

[Emmy]

But I, I think sometimes like people think that the amount of people who listen equates to, to you being qualified to be in that position. And I think it's like one of those things and this Is like, no tea, no shade. Like, literally. It's just my personal convictions. But a lot of thoughts that I have is, yeah, just because I have, like, so many million streams on my podcast doesn't mean I should write a book. I feel like I just got here. You know, it's like there's so many things to be learned. I feel like I'm in a ministerial place in my life to where I can minister, I could teach, I could preach, and there's still so much more to be learned. And I, I. I think there is, like, very different roles that just need to be discerned. And I think one of the things I really respect in the ministry space, especially as, like, this influencer thing, which I would just really love to just expand about this because I think there's so many things that's on the inside of it. Yeah, I. I really want to talk about that distinction. We could talk about everything in the middle of it, but I say we fall into again what I'm trying to answer. Kind of like that middle but more ministerial side to where we allow social media and the brand deals and our hobbies and our passions to be evangelism tools.

[Malik]

Yes.

[Emmy]

So for me, things like fashion, things like aesthetic. I believe that God is a God of beauty. And I think sometimes people have perverted beautiful things to be venous.

[Malik]

Yeah.

[Emmy]

And I believe that God has intended beauty. I believe he creates beautiful things. And I believe that the Lord appreciates a good photograph. I believe that he appreciates a great scenery. And I believe that the Lord embraces creativity. And so I believe that the Lord has used the both of us to have influence in that space so we could reach those people. And simultaneously, I believe that the Lord has burdened enough with his word to communicate his word in a way that is not only incredibly pastoral, compassionate, and biblically literate, but simultaneously, it reaches those people that he's entrusted onto us. And I have met so many people that I thought I would never reach simply through the evangelism tools of fashion and creativity. And there's been times I wanted to lay it down, because I'm like, lord, this doesn't really feel like churchy. This doesn't feel. Feel like, you know, like you got

[Malik]

to choose to do something.

[Emmy]

Yeah. And it's like, oh, I want to lay this down, because this doesn't feel traditional, you know? And I felt the Lord burn it on my heart. He said, well, if I don't send you here, who else am I going to send? And immediately I was like, send Me?

[Malik]

Yeah.

[Emmy]

If you haven't trusted me to speak to this creative space, to people who love all these passions, and to people who. That I could reach this space so I could teach people to love you more than they love these things, it would be worth it all. And I think for a long time, I wanted to push it away. And every time I've prayed about, do you not want me to make fashion content? Do you not want me to do this? I've never heard the Lord say, no, put it down. It's always been, keep going. You're reaching people. And I've met so many people in the space where I'm like, wow. We even went to a brand event at csb.

[Malik]

Yes.

[Emmy]

And I was meeting other influencers, and they were like, oh, my gosh, I love your content. And they're fitness influencers or beauty lifestyle, whatever it may be. And I was like, no way. Like, that's incredible. And they're like, yeah, you know, I love the Lord, but the space I'm in, it's, like, hard to talk about him. And I see your stuff, and you're really bold. And by the way, I know I'm incredibly bold. I will say the things no one wants to say. That's just my personality type. And what was so sweet is that I was able to talk to a handful of influencers at this brand event that we went to in Miami, and I was able to share with them, hey, this is how you preach the gospel to your audience. Like, you don't have to be a preacher. You don't have to put yourself in a position of a teacher, but you could tell your audience, I believe in Jesus.

[Malik]

Okay. Right.

[Emmy]

Do you get what I'm saying?

[Malik]

Yes. So what would you. So what would you tell? Like, a guy or girl? Right. They are just new to social media, but they have a following. But, like, the girl they're scared of, like, oh, I might lose followers. And they may not be receptive to me either preaching Jesus or talking about Jesus or the other side. They just don't know.

[Emmy]

Yeah, Well, I think the first thing is this. Talking about Jesus online should have no pressure tied to it for you to preach about the gospel. And when I mean preach about the gospel, I'm not saying preach Jesus. I think everybody who was a follower of Jesus Christ should preach him in the sense of, I believe that the one true and living God came fully man, fully God, here to dwell upon this earth amongst men and women was born of the Virgin Mary and therefore died for his sins. Died was descended into the depths of hell, resurrected three days later so he could ascend to the right hand of the Father. And he bore my sins, he bore my shame, and I could live in eternity because of what he has simply done for me. I believe the Gospel should be preached, of course, but what I mean, like teaching and preaching, I don't believe that if I'm a follower of Jesus, if I want to claim Jesus in my life and be a light, I have to put myself in a position as a teacher. And I think that might be the pressure that people feel that I don't want to talk about Jesus, because if I talk about Jesus, then I don't want people look at me as a preacher or a teacher. But my thing is, is you get to set the tone of that.

[Malik]

Yeah.

[Emmy]

So there's people who are afraid online of, I don't want to talk about Jesus, because if I talk about Him, I'll be in this. Whatever. You get to set the tone of your audience and how I would just simply advise a person is talk about Jesus like he's your best friend. Right. This is. And. And don't just talk about him on Easter. Like, if you feel led by the Lord to share something or to convert your content to just whether if that's through modesty or through the fruits of the spirit and just the way that you live your life. It's a quote that I heard of. You know, some of the best godly shoemakers aren't shoemakers that put a cross on it. It's just making a good quality shoe. So to people who are wanting to do stuff online, like, just make great quality content that honors the Lord and it doesn't have to be preachy and teachy. It just has to honor him and people will see the fruits of it and it will minister to them. And it doesn't mean to be a secret believer. I believe we should be bold, loud, and radiant believers Simultaneously, though, I think that there is a fine line that we can define and that we could say, this is how I become a preacher. This is how I become a teacher and all. What it is, is I think when people start to sit down, open their Bible and exegy or Eisenheat, which is what I think people do to the audience, I'm like, okay, now you're starting. You're starting to do a little something. Right? But I really appreciate creators who. I think this is the best thing to do, not scratch everything that I just said. I think this is the most beneficial thing I'm going to say, I think addressing your intentions would be the best thing. So if you're a creator that wants to be very explicit about you being a believer and you don't sense the Lord calling you to preach or teach, I would just simply say, I love the Lord. He is my Lord and Savior, my rock, my everything. And I'm not a preacher or a teacher. I love him. I will spread his good news, but I do not want to be held to the standard to teach on him because that is not my position, that's not my calling, but I will live for him. Does that make sense?

[Malik]

Yeah.

[Emmy]

I really appreciate creators who do that. I appreciate when a creator can be humbly open with their audience and say, hey, like, I'm a Christian, but I'm not going to come on here and preach.

[Malik]

Yeah.

[Emmy]

I think that actually saves people a lot of. And I think there could be like, very legalistic Christians on the other side of the screen of like, why wouldn't you want to preach? Why wouldn't you want to teach? Because not everybody called today.

[Malik]

Yeah. You're always going to have those types of people.

[Emmy]

Yeah.

[Malik]

Yeah.

[Emmy]

What do you think is just kind of in that same realm? You know, I don't even know what I was going to ask. Like, just your thoughts, I guess

[Malik]

I feel like for people who say, hey, I have influence, but I'm scared there's a fear one, I would ask the question, what is there to be afraid of? Like, like, like, like, what is it to be afraid of? I, I'm always directed back to the scripture. And this isn't, this isn't like a, Ooh, this is a scripture to scare you. But you know, the Bible says, if you're ashamed of me on earth, I will be ashamed of you in heaven. And the Lord wants us to speak on him.

[Emmy]

Yes.

[Malik]

Like, he wants us to, like, reach everyone. You say this all the time, especially for those who, who come to us. And it's like, oh, I just have this burden for social media. It's like, yes, because you probably do. Yes. That's where the majority of people is.

[Emmy]

Yeah.

[Malik]

And I would just like, say to those who are afraid and you don't want to put yourself out there. I would say trust in the Lord. If he's giving you the assignment to step out in faith and just begin posting. Post, post. I always say this, and it really helps me even when I think of something that the Lord has told me to do. But I'm afraid the best thing that helps me is I always look back on my track record that I have with the Lord and he has never once left me nor forsaken me or just left me out there to just to dry. Like the Lord has always shown up and there's been a grace on my life to do something when he has told me so. I would just say be obedient.

[Emmy]

Yeah.

[Malik]

You know?

[Emmy]

Yeah, I think it's being obedient, being unashamed of the Lord.

[Malik]

Yeah.

[Emmy]

And I think it's again holding that boundary of you know what, this is what I'm supposed to do, what I'm not supposed to do. And I think there's this pressure. I kind of want to swing to the other side of the pendulum. I think there is this pressure for some people who say you're influencer, content creator or you're just a regular degular person that when you become a Christian you have to become a teacher and a preacher. And I think that's a area I really want to talk about. Hey yo, let's slow the brakes real quick and let's not put ourselves in a premature position or in a non ordained or I guess a self appointed position of being something that the Lord is not calling people to be. And I think that could be really dangerous because there could be this pressure of people of like, well, I came to Jesus so I'm going to go online and like preach His Word. And it's like, yeah, preach his word. But I think there's a difference between I'm not going to make myself a teacher. And I think it comes through being honest and vulnerable and very explicit with your audience. And simultaneously I think it's just being very sensitive of the material you preach on. Yeah, I think that the easiest things to encourage people with is not your interpretation of scripture, it's just by reading scripture. I love how anytime we pray the scriptures, we're 100 in God's will because it's His Word. So whenever I pray them or whenever I speak his words, everything I'm saying is in his will because it's 100 from his word. Does that make sense? But the moment I bring my interpretation into it, that's when I could be stepping into a little bit of that teacher esque, you know. And I think for us the role that we have is we're teachers, we're ministers, we have a great expectancy that that is going to be the greatest role that we have here on this earth. I even believe that's going to be our careers at some point is just simply only ministering the Gospel. And we're just kind of holding this other influential weight at the same time of, oh, wait, we're actually people who have influence. And what do we do with this influence? How do we steward it correctly? And there's a lot of people who don't know how to steward influence. And I think that there's a lot of people who don't really know how to react to it because it is so nuanced and so new. And I think that it could develop a lot of idolization and parasocial relationships. That can feel very interesting, which we could totally talk about that. But more importantly, I think the biblical standpoint of influence, is that what it needs to be stewarded. Well, and I want to say this just in the fear of the Lord and just kind of be slow to speak. We see people like Moses and Paul and people all throughout the Bible who carried great influence. Like Moses is one of the people I think of who was like, you were taking millions of people out of Egypt and taking them into a promised land on the behalf of the Lord.

[Malik]

Yes.

[Emmy]

You were experiencing a relationship with the Lord that no one else has experienced and walking these people from one place to another. Moses had. Moses had like the 3 million followers. Literally, literally, literally had the millions of followers. They followed him. They looked to him as influence. And what kept Moses in that influence, I believe, was the grace of God. But I believe what the grace of God was for Moses was a deep burdening for the sheep.

[Malik]

Yes.

[Emmy]

I love reading all of Exodus. I love reading all of. Well, just the Torah in general. But I love reading specifically about Moses because a lot of his complainings and groanings towards the Lord is, why have you burdened me with such a people? Yeah, he's like, they did not birth listen from me. And he's just so burdened by God's people. And, you know, God set, set delegation and elders over time. But for a while, it was really just Moses kind of holding all the strings down. But I think that's just some. Someone in the Bible as a great holy example that we could look to who managed influence. And I think when I. I'm trying to look at the. The verse. Yes, it is 11. Okay, let's hear. Yep, yep, yep, There it is. Numbers 11. We're gonna start in verse 10. The complaint of Moses. That's the subtitle. Now. Moses heard the people weeping throughout their families. Each man at the doorway number numbers. Oh, numbers 11.

[Malik]

My bad hurt.

[Emmy]

Numbers 11. Well, exodus is a story of Moses being sought out by the Lord, and the escape. And numbers 11, numbers 11, verse 10.

[Malik]

Yep, yep.

[Emmy]

Now Moses heard the people weeping through their families, throughout their families, each man at the doorway of his tent. And the anger of the Lord was kindled greatly. And Moses was displeased. So Moses said to the Lord, why have you been so hard on your servant? And why have I not found favor in your sight that you have laid the burden of all this people onto me? Was it I who conceived all this people? Was it I who brought them forth that you should say to me, carry them in your bosom and nurse carriers a nursing infant to the lanch which you soar to their fathers? Where am I to get meat to give to all this people? For they weep before me saying, give us meat that we may eat. I alone am not able to carry all these people because it is too burdensome for me. So if you are going to deal thus with me, please kill me at once if I have found favor in your sight. And do not see, do not let me see my wretchedness. And then the verses after is about the 70 elders that was assisted to Moses to help him carry and steward the burden.

[Malik]

Yeah.

[Emmy]

Um, and I think we see that there's a burden that's laid on Moses that quite literally wants to kill him. But what's the burden? It's the people of God.

[Malik]

Yeah.

[Emmy]

And I believe that every pastor I even love, I, I could jump to so many scriptures regarding this because I just love this topic so much. Uh, I love Ezekiel 34 because it's God's warning towards shepherds that only use the flock for themselves and this woe that God had for these faithfulness shepherds. And what we see is that real shepherds, real people, leaders that are looking to be the hands and feet of God, have a real burden. And that burden is his people. And I find it so funny. It's actually really hilarious. I find it so 1. I find it so funny when people say, oh, I'm called to ministry. I'm called to preach to the nations. I'm supposed to get on TikTok and become a tick tock preacher. And they don't love people.

[Malik]

Yeah.

[Emmy]

Like, you see them, you see them talking and giving messages and I don't see a smile cracked out of them. And there's no Tino shade. It's just simultaneously it's like people want to have influence as a minister and have a very spiritual place in this influencer and social media space and yet lack compassion for the sheep. It's so silly. To me that people want to be in a leadership position but don't know how to love the sheep when that is the burden that you are supposed to have. I believe that is the burden that qualifies you to be a preacher, a teacher, a minister, a pastor is true, real compassion for the sheep. It's like bearing the compassions of God's people and seeing God's people like, how he sees them. It is the burden. And I find it so silly that people are like, oh, I want to be called to ministry. I want to do all these things, and. And yet they have no burden. And it's like I. I would encourage every person who feels like they're called to leadership, especially people who are very. Who are very fast, to speak on social media. I'm supposed to preach this message. Do you have compassion for the people you're preaching to? Because I just have to say this very quickly. I am becoming scared that people only want to preach because it's effective and not because they want to be faithful. People want to be very effective in the way that they preach, but people do not want to be faithful in running the race. If you want to be faithful in running the race, your sermons and messages should be tailored to the sheep that God has given you, not to just. If I say this, it will. Literally, it will. Like, if I say this, the way I ring my words around and the literature of the way of which I express it will be really effective and oppressive. But I don't want to be impressive or effective. I don't want my preaching or my gifting to speak louder than the compassion that God has for his people. And so it's very interesting to me that people are very fast to preach on social media, and yet you don't have a burden for God sheep because you want to be an effective preacher, but not a faithful one. And you wonder why so many people fall.

[Malik]

That's what I was about to say.

[Emmy]

Because people want to be effective and not faithful.

[Malik]

It's like you have a really good sermon and you're preaching it on stage, but that absolutely, absolutely means nothing. If you go home and your marriages, you're doing whatever behind closed doors, it means nothing. If we want to talk about what true holiness looks like, it means you're being set apart. And just touching on Moses again, this is why I really love the story of Moses. Because even before he is called to save the Egyptians and travel through the

[Emmy]

wilderness, Save the Egyptians is hilarious.

[Malik]

Not save the Egyptians, but save the Hebrews. You know what I Mean, save the Hebrews, take them out of Egypt and walk with the children of Israel through the wilderness. Before that even happens, God meets him with the burning bush. And I've just been reading this story and it's been affecting me personally, because when God shows up in that story, he doesn't just show Moses that he's powerful, but he presents to him that he's holy. And I'm like, when, when you have a God that meets you in this place, and he's like, hey, remove your shoes, because this is holy ground. It is showing Moses this is not anything that he's doing, but it's because God is there and his presence is holy. And from that point, Moses is knowing, I cannot do anything without the presence of God. Being holy sets us apart. This is why even later in like Exodus 33, he talks about like he needs the Lord's presence to go with him. Because if not, that is, not nothing would distinguish them from any anyone else. Like the presence of the Lord, the holiness of the Lord, the glory of the Lord is the thing that keeps you in holiness. So it doesn't matter if you can speak a good word if you're not set apart. Consecrated living in holiness as well.

[Emmy]

I think it goes back to a heart cry we've just had in secret that we've been just talking about is there's a lot of people who just want to preach at people. And it's like, sure, you could be a great scholar. You can know, you can know this front and back. You can read all of it. You can know all the words in Aramaic and Greek and Hebrew. You can know it up and down and sideways, backwards. You Write, recite the 66 books in order and back and back. You could, you could do it all. And it's like if you have all these things apart from love, you're exactly what First Corinthians 13 warns you of in the beginning of that chapter is. You're just a banging sounding gong. And I want to be people who carries the torch of the wisdom of God, but simultaneously is constantly in his presence. And I think that's why I love that you bring up Moses and this reverence of constantly being in the Lord's presence. And I wonder if these messages that we're so eager to preach, we need to question ourselves. Lord, are you here that, like, are you here that you know? And I think I've seen that in a lot of the things I've been now very slow to speak on of, like, are you here, you know, like, Is this where you want me?

[Malik]

Right. Because what would you say the difference is someone building a platform on their own strength than with, with God?

[Emmy]

Yeah. I think selfish ambition is one of the deadly ammunitions to the body of Christ right now is I want to be this tick tock preacher. I want to have all these. You know what, I want to have a cool tick tock video of me preaching. And they put those electric car, electric guitars in the background, like Philip Anthony Mitchell, you know, like I want that. You know, it's like it's this very selfish gospel that's being preached. Like there is this, there's this idolization and being like a preacher and like having a microphone and being in a pulpit. I think that there I, I think the selfish ambition to your question, what's the difference to people building things in their own strength and knowing that the Lord has called them? I think it's honestly just checking what your motor is. And I think a lot of people's motives could be to be seen. I think there's a lot of people who feel very seen in ministry, but they don't seem feel seen by Jesus. And I think that's a very dangerous place to be in. I think this is how ministry becomes a golden calf. Because people are expecting the congregation and the hands and feet of Jesus within the pulpit, not within the pulpit, within the four walls of the church to be their affirmation apart from the Father. And I think that is so incredibly dangerous to get your affirmation from God's people, apart from his spirit. I think there is an aspect where people want to be seen. They want to be loved, they want to be cherished. I also think that there is an aspect to where there is such thing as prematurity. I think there is a sense to where there could be people who are called to ministry. And it's what I said on the episode with Clarissa, it's like eating a green banana. It's like you just. It's nasty.

[Malik]

Yeah.

[Emmy]

And it's not ripe. It's. It's not even yellow. It's not even this correct coloring. It didn't mature to its greatest form. And I think that it's the same reason as to why when David was anointed, he didn't receive Kingship for another 15 years for a reason. And I believe it's because when the Lord plants seeds, he has to water them in order for them to grow. Some of the greatest trees that we love take years. I'm reminded of when we went to the Sequoia national park in my hometown. And we are seeing trees that are like a thousand years old, and you see how grand and massive they are. And what I, what I think of when I see even just trees like that. And I love how the scriptures say, like, hey, you don't believe in God, go outside. Like, the, the trees and the skies and the birds will preach to you. Because it literally sings songs of God's creation. Like, truly, if. If the earth mourns at the death of Jesus, how much more would it preach it? When Jesus was. Was crucified, it said that the earth turned dark. Like the earth mourned Jesus. Like, do you know how incredibly impactful it is that the earth swallowed up its Creator and it mourned? And how much more could creation preach the resurrection? And I love that something as simple as, like a tree and could tell us the history, the importance of planting a seed and the faithfulness and the endurance for it to grow.

[Malik]

Yeah.

[Emmy]

And I believe this is like the further sanctification of which we live. I think this is what Romans 12 says, to be conformed to the renewing of your. Of your minds. And, and the, the transformation happens over time. You know, there is a liberty and a justification of salvation that happens the moment that you say yes to Jesus. But theologically speaking, sanctification is an ongoing process, and we receive full sanctification when we are in our new heavenly bodies with the Father. And I think that when we allow seeds to just be seeds and trust the Lord to. Have you ever heard of over watering a plant?

[Malik]

Yes.

[Emmy]

Get drowned out when you, you drown it out. And I believe that is what prematurity is, is that the Lord places a seed and you want to drown it out. It reminds me what Peter said when the Lord is wanting to wash his feet. He said, no, Lord, I'm not worthy of you to wash my feet. And the Lord said, well, if you don't allow me to wash your feet, then you have no part of me. And he said, well, then wash me from the top of my head to the soles of my feet. Like, just dump the water, dump it on me.

[Malik]

Yeah.

[Emmy]

And I think that's the difference. It's. The Lord is wanting to plant a seed of Peter, and he says, either you could let me wash you the way I want to wash you, or from your standard, I don't wash you at all, which is stagnation, or you could wash yourself and drown yourself out in the process, which is prematurity and hustle culture, burnout. It's Burnout. And I think, to answer your question, the difference between selfish ambition, pursuing ministry, and how do you know something is by God is thy word is a lamp onto my feet and a light onto my path. If he has planted the seed, trust that he will water it. And I believe that this is not conditioning us to live a perfect Christian life, but a progressive one that is obedient in accordance to the Scriptures and walks in the way of the Lord. And I think that we have to check the motor of our hearts as to why we're preaching, why we're teaching. Are we teaching because we care about the person, or are we teaching because we want a good view out of it?

[Malik]

Yes.

[Emmy]

How slow to speak am I getting out of this? How fast am I listening? Just all these things. I, I, I would be a great, I would allow the Lord, the Holy Spirit to just be a great counsel and a great accountability partner, to be like, hey, Holy Spirit, can you just hold me accountable? Could the fear of the Lord just be upon the depths of my heart? And I, I, I think that, I don't know if that really answers that all the way, but I think how you know something is from the Lord is that you walk with him. And I think that, you know, you walk with him because the fruit of your life depicts that. But I, I also do believe that there's. The Lord gives you grace as well. You will sense a grace.

[Malik]

Yes. Because I'm gonna say on the other side of that, piggybacking off of what you're saying, I feel like, you know, when it's built in the Lord, I feel like the people will kind of will show you in a way of, you know, when you're preaching on the Lord, they're nourished. They're nourished with who Jesus is. And I'm thinking about John 6, when Jesus had just fed the 5,000. So they come to Jesus and he, he gives them actual food. Then they come back to him again and they're like, hey, can you feed us again? And Jesus is like, well, you're only coming back to me because you want food. And he's revealing to them, I am the bread of life. It's like, you know, when it's built up in Jesus, when he is the one that fills the people and not you. Yes. That's the, that's the difference. And the people will show you when they're left feeling nourished and wanting to go seek Jesus. Yes. And not coming back to you. Yes.

[Emmy]

And that's how idolization Happens.

[Malik]

Yes.

[Emmy]

Is when you don't nourish the sheep from what they need. And I think it's from knowing your sheep. But, but, but then even at the end of the day, even if you don't quote unquote, know your sheep, you should, if you're a leader. By the way, if you don't know your sheep, how you're always going to nourish them is Jesus.

[Malik]

Yep.

[Emmy]

You don't nourish them from your own TED Talk sermons. And I think that's something that we're really missing is that a lot of people are preaching and a lot of people are, a lot of people are leaving knowledgeable, but not a lot of people are leaving nourished by the word of God.

[Malik]

Yes.

[Emmy]

Like exactly what you said. Jesus says that I am the bread of life. And it is concerning to walk into church buildings and seeing people leave the same. And, and they're leaving the same because they were encouraged but they were not nourished.

[Malik]

And, but it's a different because in the story it's like, okay, I can give you actual food and you feel good, you feel rejuvenated, you feel healthy because you just had food. Like you need food to survive.

[Emmy]

Yeah.

[Malik]

But Jesus is like there's something more spiritual that you need that I have and you're lacking it and you just want natural substance.

[Emmy]

Yes.

[Malik]

But he's like, there's, there's a, there's a deep longing in your soul that only I can fulfill.

[Emmy]

So what's the job of the human hands and feet to be the spiritual hands and feet of Jesus. To bring the five loaves in the two fish.

[Malik]

Yeah.

[Emmy]

It's to know we are not the multipliers. We are just the ones faithfully bringing what God has told us to bring. And I know there are plenty of preachers, plenty of people in Gen Z that I would say whoa and be hesitant to preach. If you think you are going to multiply, you will not. You are not Jesus. Just because Jesus walked on water doesn't mean that you get to, you know, Peter did, of course, but it was at the hand of the Lord. But in the sense to where like the self preserved miracles to prove this like self sufficiency apart from Jesus, it's wicked and I believe it's satanic. I will use that harsh of a word. I believe it is satanic to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ for self gain. I believe it is satanic to position yourself to be a savior.

[Malik]

Yeah.

[Emmy]

I think savior complexity in the church is absolutely Satanic. When church leaders and ministers and people online seek themselves out to be a savior, to be a remedy onto people, we are not the remedy. We have access to the redeemer.

[Malik]

Yeah.

[Emmy]

But that does not make us the redeemers. We simply just know the way. We're just the hands and feet of Jesus. And I think, you know, to a more, we could really talk about, like, leadership, because just to give people understanding, I think this podcast is. I would like to say, I hope that this podcast builds people up to pursue Jesus. I pray that when people listen to this podcast, they're equipped, they are nourished by the word of God. And they're like, wow, like, this is transformative because I'm seeing Jesus, my relationship with him is growing deeper. And I think there's, like, a lot of casual conversations that could happen that just feel very, like, yappy.

[Malik]

Yeah.

[Emmy]

And that's where idolization could come into play. Like, we're very big on teaching, and so all of my episodes have been on teaching for that very reason. But I think that when you teach and you're thinking about the sheep and what they need, it nourishes them. And it nourishes them because it's Jesus. It's not like you're on TED Talk.

[Malik]

Yeah.

[Emmy]

And I know that we're in positions to where we go to places all over, and we preach and we see the sheep in person. We see them online. We've built communities to just help pour into people. We are definitely shepherds of this generation that we're in, and we're suing it to the best of our ability as of right now, hosting everything of which we're hosting. And I think, you know, what is, I. I could say one of the greatest things I've learned out of treating people with compassion and selflessness and standing at the gate. So many things that goes into shepherding specifically and leading people, how to effectively lead people. What's like, one of the things that has been very pivotal for you when it comes to maybe. Let me ask this. What's the difference between leading a moment and leading a people into that nourishment that you're talking about?

[Malik]

Mm. That's so good. When we look at both of those things, anyone could steward a moment. And I used to say this. Just because you have so many people coming into a building, just because you got this many amount of followers, doesn't. It doesn't mean that God is there. Like, you can have people fill a building and God not be there. You can have A moment at your home and God still not be there. And I feel like the difference from hosting something and having a true presence where God is there is honestly you humbling and submitting yourself under the lordship of Jesus Christ so He can come in and he have his way. I feel like a lot of the times we get in the way of what God wants to do. The having a moment, it. It sometimes falls on us feeling like, we got to do this. We got to do this thing, we got to do this things. But I promise you, if we were just to take a step back and just be still for a second, allow the Holy Spirit to come in, you will see him work. I feel like the difference is we want to strive. We want to strive so hard and so bad. Hello. For. For a moment to where it's so manufactured. Yeah, it's planned.

[Emmy]

Feels synthetic.

[Malik]

Yes. It's so planned. And it's like, that's not how the Holy Spirit works. Like, he will come in and do what he wants to do. He doesn't need you to manufacture anything. He will literally come and move on everybody's hearts if we were to just take a step back. Yes.

[Emmy]

But. Yes. I think that. I think everything you're saying is so great. I really relate to that. And I think it's this, what you said of, like, manufacturing a moment and thinking, oh, if I get all these people in my building, then we're going to rejoice the Lord. It's not your building. There's a lot of people who are like, it's so silly. It's so silly. We'll invite God into His own house. Yeah, Lord, we invite you. What do you mean? This is the house of the Lord. It already belongs to Him. We don't need to invite Him. He should already be here.

[Malik]

Yeah.

[Emmy]

And I think one of the greatest things that we've learned about stewarding a shepherding position, even being young in ministry, is understanding that the sheep is not yours. It's not your followers. It's not your flock. It does not belong to you. It belongs to the Lord. It is his people. He loves them dearly. And I think one of the greatest gifts that we could have, except for salvation, of course, is the burden for God's people that is his greatest treasury apart from Jesus. He treasures his people. And I don't think people really find that. That burden, all that tasty, because they just want to be known for great preaching and great teaching apart from a burden. And I. I think if we were to be a lot more coherent and aware and vigilant that the way that we lead God's people isn't based off of our own selfish ambition, but rather it is a stewardship, a selfless stewardship that we are supposed to give onto the Lord because it's his people. I should be burdened by that same compassion that he had for them, by the way, because the scripture says that Jesus was moved by what, compassion for the sheep?

[Malik]

Yeah.

[Emmy]

So the sh. We see Jesus throughout the entirety of the scriptures, heal people, minister to people, sit down with prostitutes and tax collectors because of one thing, he had compassion for them.

[Malik]

Yeah.

[Emmy]

How much more should we. For a flock that's not ours, it belongs to him. And I think the problem that a lot of ministers are facing and a lot of preachers could be facing is that they don't really have this burden for the sheep. And they think that the building is theirs. They think that the sheep is theirs. Which is why I feel bold, which is why some pastors won't let people leave their church. I was thinking that because you think they belong to you. I, I feel bold. I feel bold. I feel in my bones because I don't have the fear of man. I mean, you know that. But it's one of the things that our mentors. Oh my gosh. When our mentor told us this, it was like, yo, like, this is so great. It's like it changed my life when he told me this. It's like, have you seen what happens to leaders who don't let the sheep go? Pharaoh, like, one of my, one of our mentors told us, he was like, I'm never going to tell someone, no, you can't leave my church. Like, they belong to me. Because I saw the 10 plagues that hit Pharaoh when he didn't let God's people go. I don't want to hit my 10 plagues, Jesus. And it's like, it's so silly that pastors think the sheep belong to them. They don't belong to you. They belong to the Lord, mighty one. And I'm not saying because I know that there's going to be people, a little spectacle of, like Emmy, like, honor your leaders, like, honor, you know, the shepherds and etc. My honoring doesn't equate to my complete allegiance to a person. There's nowhere in scripture that really supports that. Like, we see Abraham leave his hometown, leave his home country, leave his family to go pursue the Lord. We see so many instances in scripture where people were called out of their homes, were called to one place, onto another. And sure, we see people that were faithful onto their leaders, but that's not every scripture. And I think it's just very interesting that there has been like this territorial spirit. And when I mean spirit, I'm not referring to a demon. I'm talking about like almost human cunningness that has been made of like the inside of perverted leaders of these people belong to me and I can't let them go. And it's like, do you not trust the Lord? And I, I, I think it's the same reason as to why, you know, when Luke and I are building a team and they're like, oh, well, the Lord had told me to move here and et cetera, it's like, go and do your thing because you don't belong to me. And I think that's really dangerous to think that the sheep belong to you.

[Malik]

Yeah. What is, what is something that you think leaders will have to answer to God about that we, you know, personally don't talk about all the time.

[Emmy]

I think the first one is thinking that the sheep belong to you. I think one thing leaders don't think about, they're going to be held accountable for is the gluttony that's in the pulpit of the over consumption of how many people are there and keeping them like it's almost like this greed in the church. It could be with finances and with statual opportunities. I believe there is like a. I believe there are leaders who have became very gluttonous and greedy with people and their currency is the attendance. And I believe that this is exactly why James said that we have to be very, very slow to speak and incredibly quick to listen and have the fear of God as we teach because we will be held to a higher standard. I believe this is why James teaches that because we will be held as leaders to a standard for the things you do and do not know about. And I think one of those things is hogging the sheep, putting them in this pin, becoming more of an abuser than you do of an, of a shepherd. Perfect time to read Ezekiel 34. You ready? Prophecy against the shepherds of Israel. Oh, I feel the passion of God when the word of the Lord. Okay, let me give you, let me give you. Just like pre reference, there was a lot of greedy shepherds. There was a lot of teachers and false prophets in this time that Ezekiel was rebuking from obviously what the Lord was using the mouthpiece of Ezekiel to share that there was a disconnection with the shepherds of Israel and the people. And let's just read. It's pretty plain. 34 Ezekiel 34. Then the word of the Lord came to me saying, son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel. Prophesy and say to those shepherds. Thus says the Lord God. Woe, shepherds of Israel. Who could have been feeding the who have been feeding themselves? Should not the shepherds feed the flock? You eat the fat and clothe yourselves with wool. You slaughter the fat sheep without feeding the flock those who are sickly. You have not strengthened the diseased, you have not healed the broken. You have not bound up the scattered, you have not brought back, nor have you sought out for the lost. But with force and with severity you have dominated them. They were scattered for a lack of a shepherd. Who Jesus. And they became food for every beast of the field and were scattered. Oh, my. Can we break this down after.

[Malik]

This is so good.

[Emmy]

My flock wandered through all the mountains and on every high hill. My flock was scattered all over the surface of the earth, and there was no one to search or seek for them. Therefore you shepherds, hear the word of God as I live, declares the Lord God. Surely because who. My flock has become a prey. My flock has even become food for all the beasts of the fields for lack of a shepherd. And my shepherds did not search for my flock, but rather the shepherds fed themselves and did not feed my flock. Therefore you shepherds hear the word of the Lord. Thus says the Lord God. Behold, I am against the shepherds and I will demand my sheep from them to make them cease from feeding the sheep. So the shepherds will not feed themselves anymore. But I will deliver my flock from their mouth so that they will not be food for them.

[Malik]

Is good. Oh, what?

[Emmy]

What? Speak.

[Malik]

Because I was gonna say another thing. I feel like leaders are gonna have to account for the trust of the people. I saw you make a face.

[Emmy]

Very good.

[Malik]

They are gonna have to account for the trust of the people. Because if you spiritually manipulated, tried to control, put fear in your sheep, to keep them to stay for your building, for your ministry, for whatever you wanted to do and not serve them completely, that is something you're going to have to answer to God about.

[Emmy]

This is the woe.

[Malik]

This is the woe.

[Emmy]

The woe is written. The.

[Malik]

That's.

[Emmy]

Right. You're on cringe strike.

[Malik]

All right. It's written.

[Emmy]

It's written. And I think. I think what the scripture really warns us. Well, one God iterates the same thing over and over again. My flock, my flock, my flock, my sheep. He's, he's affirming his dominance and his lordship over the flock. And I believe that being repetitive, God being repetitive in the scriptures shows us that he's reestablishing something that's been perverted. And when it's talking about the shepherds of Israel eating the fat, clothing themselves with the wool, and slaughtering the fat sheep without feeding the flock, not healing the disease, it's like I, I think even people who aren't necessarily called to be leaders, but you know, they are sheep, I would really ask you, are you under leadership that is slaughtering you? Are you still diseased? You know, and I think there is a huge war woe towards churches that aren't actually healing the body of Christ because the shepherds have become so selfishly ambitionized by the culture of like this preacherhood, the shepherdhood apart from actually feeding the sheep.

[Malik]

It goes back to the, am I leaving with just an encouragement or do I feel nourished? Yes, nourished by the Word. And I like, Sorry, I was gonna say, and we talked, we said this before. The biggest thing is if you go to a church and you don't hear the name Jesus mentioned, if you don't, if you leave the service, walk out and you like, I didn't learn something about Jesus today.

[Emmy]

And I didn't even hear his name once.

[Malik]

I didn't even hear his name once. If you don't know nothing about Jesus today, you need to go somewhere else.

[Emmy]

Well, I would say this, go to the surface next week and see if it happens again. And then because it might have just

[Malik]

been a slip up, might have been a slip up, we're just going to

[Emmy]

slip up, test the fruit, go again. I think, I think there is such a grace and such a joy in sitting for a season and seeing the fruit. If you think that you're in a place where you're not being nourished situation, watch the fruit first John forum, become a great fruit inspector and from there make your decision. But I, I, I, I think we have to sit for a season and watch the fruit. If it's good or bad. Yeah, we have to sit to see if the fruit is good or bad. Um, but this, back to the scripture. Oh, there's so much in it. I think the Lord is again reestablishing. It's his flock is his people, but like the nourishment of the sheep. And so what is, what is the job of le leaders boiling down to that point to nourish the sheep, to feed the sheep. And you Feed them with the Lord. And I think we can't overindulge in ourselves and expect, like, oh, well, if I'm good, everybody else is gonna be good. Surely. And it's like, there is a sense of preserving the shepherd to stand strong for the sheep. Because I believe when a. There's so many things we could talk about. Because I could even talk about just specific spiritual warfare that leaders go through.

[Malik]

Yeah.

[Emmy]

Because whenever I believe that, and I will say this very strongly, I believe that the enemy will attack leaders, and I believe that the enemy is very strategic in who he attacks, because if the enemy could strike the shepherd, the flock will feel what was just stricken.

[Malik]

Yeah.

[Emmy]

And I, I think that there's a warfare in that. And so I would, I, I would encourage, just for a little segment, no matter who you are, LeBron has a coach. So everybody should have a leader to pray for your leaders, intercede for them. Seriously. Because all leaders are tried by an insane fire. But back to what I was saying. It's this nourishment of the sheep, and so they, the, the role of the shepherd is to nourish the sheep. Point blank, period. And the role of the sheep is to be shepherded and nourished and to give back onto the Lord. Like, it's to just. I, I, I think it's like one of those things to where it's like, hey, I'm just, like, not showing up to church to just get fed and leave. It's like, I want to give my everything to Jesus. You know, that looks like serving and, you know, spiritual disciplines, like tithing and being in community and, you know, being held accountable. Like, all those things we could do a separate episode on, specifically how to be a sheep. But talking about how to be a shepherd, You're not saying anything.

[Malik]

No, no, no.

[Emmy]

I'm really.

[Malik]

I don't know. Sometimes I'm just slow to speak on podcasts.

[Emmy]

That's okay.

[Malik]

I can just, I mean, I feel like I'm slow to speak. So sometimes in general, it's just like I'm processing, like, what we're talking about, the seriousness behind being the leader and having someone having influence. Because there's, Honestly, there's a lot that comes with it.

[Emmy]

Yeah.

[Malik]

Like, so what do you think is the cost of ministry? Because I, I feel like I have what I believe, but I want to hear yours.

[Emmy]

I want to hear yours first.

[Malik]

I don't know, because when I think about people who shepherd people who have influence, and we look at what the cost of ministry really is, it is death to self. That is the cost of ministry. Like everyone wants to do ministry until you have to get to a point to where you're dying to yourself.

[Emmy]

You have to die.

[Malik]

You have to die to yourself. And even in Luke 9 to where Jesus extends the invitation because he said like, let's just read it. Luke 9, he says, and he was saying to them, if anyone wishes to come after me, what a gentleman he is. If anyone wishes to come after me, it's your choice. But he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. And I think that's what the cost of ministry is and honestly should be every single day of our lives. It is dying to ourselves. I love how he love how he puts deny himself and take up his cross as equally because you have to deny yourself and take up your cross. So it's like, this isn't a self promoting thing. This isn't like this isn't a thing that you want to do. He's saying, pick up your cross daily and follow me. And I was looking at the scripture and I thought this was so good because when we look at, you know, early Jewish culture, the people who Jesus is saying this to, they don't need an explanation of the cross. They're seeing the cross or they're seeing people get crucified. That's every day they're, they're looking at people get crucified. So they don't need an explanation of the cross. So in my mind, I imagine as Jesus is saying this, pick up your cross, they're like, oh, this is kind of crazy because I know when I pick up my cross, it leads to death. They know, like when I pick up my cross, it's a one way journey. Like, and I'm, and I'm dying.

[Emmy]

And it's public.

[Malik]

And it's public. It's humiliating, it's gruesome, it's, it's embarrassing. So I'm so, I don't know, I'm putting myself in the, in the first hearers of this word. And I'm like, oh, they, they're probably hearing Jesus say this and they're like, you're insane. Like you're actually insane. Like, what do you mean? But I think when it comes to the cost of ministry, that's what it is. We're picking up our cross and knowing there's only one destination. There's, there's a, there's a one way road and it's very narrow and it's to death.

[Emmy]

Yeah, that's so good.

[Malik]

And Sorry, I just thought about. And it says 24. Says 24. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it. But whoever loses his life for my sake, he is the one who will save it. And I just recently found this analogy that is so sweet correlating to this verse because it says, whoever wishes to save his life will lose it. Whoever loses his life for my sake, he will save it. And I was thinking of this analogy of a seed. Right. And when you have a seed and you bury it underground, it looks like it's dead. It's buried under. Under the ground. But then when you water it, it's actually being set free to grow and to nourish as it was properly made to do. And I think this is the verse. It's like, no, us dying is life. Us dying is new life. And I think we have to be that seed planet. And it may look scary. We're under the dirt, six feet under. And it looks like we're not going to have a way out. But the Lord will nourish us and that's where we will grow.

[Emmy]

Well, because death doesn't exist for the believer.

[Malik]

Yeah.

[Emmy]

That if I have a death and a burial like Jesus, surely I'll have a resurrection. And if we know that we have an eternal life with him, then truly there's just never a death. Technically, it's just a progressing, ongoing of a life. And I think the death is a death that is more. I. I mean, it's in always. It's not even just spiritual or physical or emotional. It's just death to all.

[Malik]

Yeah.

[Emmy]

And I believe, like how you said in that death is new life.

[Malik]

Yeah.

[Emmy]

And I think that's so sweet. I love the question that you asked about. I restate your question again, the cost of ministry. The cost of ministry. I think the cost of ministry in relates to a shepherd or a leader. What it costs to be a leader in ministry is laying your life down for the sheep. And I believe specifically to be a shepherd that sits at the gate.

[Malik]

Yeah.

[Emmy]

Reminded of John 10, the parable of the good shepherd. I kind of want to do all of it truthly. Truly. I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way. He is a thief and a robber, but he enters. He who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep to him. The doorkeeper opens and the sheep hear his voice. And he calls them to his own sheep by name and leads them out again. Jesus is talking about himself here. When he Puts forth all on his own. He goes ahead of them and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. A stranger. They simply will not follow, but will flee from him because they do not know the voice of strangers. This figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what those things were which he had been saying to them. So Jesus said to them, truly, truly, I say to you. I am the door of the sheep. All who come to me before are thieves and robbers. But I am the. But. But the sheep did not hear them. I am the door. If anyone enters through me, he will be saved and will go in and out to find pasture. The thief comes only to steal, kill and destroy. I come that they may have life and have it abundantly. I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. He who is a hired hand. Or I'm gonna keep it there cuz it goes into fall shepherds, but I'll keep it there. Just laying your life down for the sheep. It's like sitting at the gate. And I think that we could, because why do we sit at the gate? It's because we don't want to be Jesus, but we don't want to be like him. And if Jesus, the ultimate good shepherd, lays his life down for the sheep, how much more should I? And I think it's just dying to your selfishness. I think it's dying to your idea of ministry. I think it's dying to your idea and expectations of what the people God brings you is going to look like. I think it's making a commitment of I'm gonna lay my life down for your people because that's what you did. And it's not creating like a savior complex whatsoever. I think it's just I'm going to live a life that's selfless, that denies myself and gives generously onto others and washes feet. And I think the cost of ministry is death. And by the way, all of us, even if you're a leader or not, is at some aspect called to ministry. We're all called to minister the gospel of Jesus Christ. That's the great commission. To teach, to evangelize, to teach people to obey the scriptures and for them to follow them. That's how you make disciples of all nations. We exercise some sort of ministry in all of our lives. But I think if you're explicitly a shepherd, explicitly a pastor, explicitly a preacher, explicitly a minister, there has to be a compassion for the sheep and a daily funeral of you laying your life down for them. Your preferences. And this is what I would say to people who do have access to a pulpit and access to a microphone. Don't bring your outside life into it.

[Malik]

Yeah.

[Emmy]

Like, don't bring your. I. I feel like we have so much fear of the Lord when we come and we sit and we talk, that we're not bringing, like, our outside lives here that we're not bringing. Especially when we're in a pulpit. Pulpit before a congregation. Like, don't bring your outside life in. We have the. There's. I think Pastor Michael Culiano said it so transparently, and it's true. The biggest temptation that leaders will face in ministry is the temptation for them to make it about themselves.

[Malik]

Yeah.

[Emmy]

We cannot make ministry about us. It is about one man, and his name is Jesus. And we begin to lose the man when we bring our opinions in the pulpit and want to preach on those more than we want to preach on him. And if we want to have an opinion, I'm not saying don't have them, but make it very obvious it's an opinion. Don't bring it to the pulpit.

[Malik]

Yeah.

[Emmy]

Bring it to, like, a post or if you want to tell people about it or bring it to your friend group. But in a pulpit, we need to make it about Jesus because there are people who are on the inside and we don't even know it or like, holding their breath to be saved and to be told the good news. So we have to treat it with urgency.

[Malik]

Yeah. We have to have more reverence.

[Emmy]

It's the fear of the Lord.

[Malik]

It is reverence for the Lord and his holy word and the Scriptures. And I think that's what all leaders need. All leaders need to see the Lord rightly and have reverence for him. This has been good to my spirit. This whole thing has been so good.

[Emmy]

And I feel like we kind of jumped around maybe a little lot of it. I feel like there's so much more we could talk about.

[Malik]

Yeah. I think there for sure is. But I feel like all the questions that we did talk about were very specific to the leader who may have influence.

[Emmy]

Yeah.

[Malik]

You know?

[Emmy]

Yeah.

[Malik]

And how to go about it.

[Emmy]

I think the greatest nugget we'll just leave is Jesus was compassionate. Where Jesus was moved by compassion for his sheep, we have to be the same. If he was moved by compassion to heal people, to lay hands, to sit, we have to do those same things. Don't do gatherings just because you wanna look like a good pastor or a good leader, a good influencer, do it because you Love God's sheep. And if you wanna love God sheep, ask him to burden you with it.

[Malik]

Yeah, you know, I think that was the main. I think that was. Out of everything, was the main thing.

[Emmy]

I think that's the biggest stretch. Like, if you don't get anything from this podcast, please get this. Like, yeah, if you are called to ministry, your qualification is a burden, and it's a burden for God's sheep.

[Malik]

That's it.

[Emmy]

That's it. And if you feel like you're called to ministry and you don't have it, I would ask for you to humbly and desperately ask the Lord for it. Because if you preach apart from it, you will be a first and second verse of First Corinthians 13. And that's how we get shepherds that hop the gate instead of going through it. They don't see Jesus, they just see the flock. They want the flock, but they don't want the man. We have to be leaders that want the man. Jesus, I want him more than anything. I want him more than this podcast. I want him more. Then I almost had something. I'll. I was gonna be like, I want him more than this. I want you, babe. I promise. I was like, yo, that one was coming out of my mouth. I want more than anything.

[Malik]

Yeah.

[Emmy]

Anything I could gain in life, like one more than any earthly relationship and more than any materialistic convenience. I just want him. Yeah, that's it. I just want him. And, you know, if people. If people and things come along the way, so be it. But if it's apart from him, I want nothing to do with it. I have too much fear of the Lord. That's why the scriptures say that we will be accounted for every careless act and word that comes out of our mouth.

[Malik]

That's what Paul says. I count everything as loss compared to the gain of knowing Christ.

[Emmy]

Yes, absolutely. Be careful about what you say. Be careful about how you lead people. Like, woe to that. I don't even have to expand on that. You should have the fear of the Lord to even just hear that scripture. And it does something to you, you know? Yeah. Well, there's one more thing I wanted to say, but I think I'm good.

[Malik]

I feel God. I feel like.

[Emmy]

You feel him?

[Malik]

Yeah.

[Emmy]

Wow.

[Malik]

I just feel like, just so reverence. I'm like, oh, my gosh. Burden this Lord.

[Emmy]

Yeah. And also just. I. I think that's been something, even just transparently that I've been learning, just becoming a lot more slower to speak. And if I don't know 110 about something like just Emmy take a million steps back. You know, so much. I'm learning. My nose keeps itching because my hair.

[Malik]

Your hair is in it.

[Emmy]

Keeps going in it, and I'm, like, itching it. I'm just like. But, yeah, I think that's really it. I feel really good with that.

[Malik]

Thank you. For this, like, this segment like, that you felt burdened to do. Do for influencing leaders. I. I really think. I really think this one is very needed.

[Emmy]

Yeah.

[Malik]

Very needed.

[Emmy]

I think we're probably gonna have to do another one. What I would love to do. I would love. I. I don't want to promise this, but I would love to bring on a pastor to talk about this, like, to shepherd the younger leaders. Like, shepherd younger shepherds. Like, almost like a Samuel to a David.

[Malik]

I'm gonna.

[Emmy]

I'm gonna make a few text messages to some people. Yeah. Like, I. I'm not gonna say names out loud, but I. There's a few people that are coming to mind that I think would be really impactful for that conversation. That'd be super. Yeah, I have a. I have a lot of things I'm thinking about, but. Yeah. Well, you guys, Malik's gonna be on the pot a lot more because we're married and we're one. I like when you're on the pod.

[Malik]

No, I love doing it together.

[Emmy]

It's fun. I love it because it's like. I don't know. It's just. It's just inviting people into the conversations we have in our own home. But more importantly, it's a lot easier for me, too, because I don't have to sermonize everything. It's a lot to teach. And so to just kind of allow the word to just come out of the depths of your heart and just speak is just incredible. But, you guys, that's our episode for today.

[Malik]

Yeah.

[Emmy]

Obviously, I'm accompanied by my amazing husband, Malik. He has his own podcast called Behold Him. He has a whole movement that he's just stewarded by God, where he is just hosting the presence of the Lord through stillness and through just deep connection with the Lord by being still and by seeing him once again and not allowing the hurried, busy life to just get in the lens of seeing him rightly. And so you could just keep up with everything he's doing through the Paul to movement. If you are a male and listening and tuning into safe, not soft, I would highly encourage you to listen to Behold him to be a part of the movement. See what Malik is doing. He's very burdened for men, for young men especially. And so if you're looking for a space to just be equipped and looking for just a man, a pastoral man, to speak into your life. My husband is the guy. He's the guy. And yeah, other things just kind of like simple announcements. If you're looking for online community and discipleship, you could join Save Society. Save Society is a online disciple. Excuse me, I was messing this up last podcast too. I was stuttering. I was talking too fast. Safe Society is a online discipleship course slash community through Patreon. And what it is is that it's a membership to where girls all over the world, literally, we have people who are in from South Africa, Australia, the uk, Cambodia. Like, we have girls from all over a part of the society. And it's basically to give you that intimate online space to have constant communication, fellowship, early access to episodes. You get a lot of amazing perks from it. And it's just really awesome. We do four calls a month. We do two prayer calls a month. We do one live Q A call, which is where you guys just bring all of your questions on a zoom call and we answer them. And then we also do a Safe Society community call where we do a teaching, we do breakout sessions, we get you guys plugged into community. There's just like a lot of resources and I think it's really worth it. If you may not have community or you're looking for online community, this could be like a really awesome way. So if you're looking to be a part of something like that, Safe Society might be the place for you. And there's a link down below also, if you're looking to give onto this ministry, what are you giving to exactly? You're giving to not only the amazing people that we get to have on this EP on these episodes, but into things like equipment, etc, but more importantly to other missionaries, to other ministries all over, not just the United States, but all over the world. We are currently sponsoring missionaries who are literally preaching to the nations right now through the tithing, through the funding. And then more importantly, we have just given abundantly to so many people in need. I think I. I talk about this all the time because I was like, wow, I can't believe we gave that much. We gave $5,000 to families that were impacted by the wildfires last year. We've been able to give onto domestic shelters, we've been able to house missionaries, we've been able to house people, we've been able to feed families, we were able to. This entire last summer, Save not soft. Was able to fill classrooms all over the United States with new school supplies. So just really awesome stuff, like teachers that love Jesus and are in the public school space and just filling their classrooms with school supplies and et cetera. So those are things that we're doing here on this side. I'm also in the middle. I don't even know when this podcast is coming out, but we're filming this in May. We're in the middle of building a team right now to do more serving outreach. A lot of things with the homeless, a lot of things with going on college campuses and reaching young women. A lot of really awesome stuff. So when you tithe, you're giving into that, but there's also no pressure. I want to encourage all of you guys, though, to tithe into your local church.

[Malik]

Yeah, please.

[Emmy]

Tithe into your local church. I don't care about, like, I'm. I'm just saying I believe that there is such a. Such a lack of urgency of tithing into the local body, and so I really want to make it urgent that, hey, if you don't feel led to tithe here, please tie and sew and be generous into your local church wherever you go. And as far as this podcast and everything that God's doing through this, all I ask for and what would be truly beneficial is just for you guys to pray. Pray for me as a leader. Pray for my husband and I. Pray for our team and everything that we're doing. We're in, like, very vulnerably. We're in a building season, and there's so many things that we're building. It feels very, like, raw and new. We're in, like, a really learning season, so it feels like, you know, there's a lot of things we can mess up, but we're just learning at the same time. That's just kind of, like the ups and downs of ministry. I always just want to be vulnerable and transparent, what that looks like. But, yeah, you guys, I think that's really it. Anything else you could think of?

[Malik]

I don't think so.

[Emmy]

I think that's it, you guys. Well, thank you, Malik. Thank you for hopping on. And I can't wait to hang out with you right after.

[Malik]

Right.

[Emmy]

Give you a little kid.

[Malik]

Okay.

[Emmy]

I'm kid. I am. It's been hours. Okay.

[Malik]

Love y'. All.

[Emmy]

We could go. Okay. Love you guys. Bye.