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- [00:01]
A
Hello. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Saved. Not soft. It's been a minute, and as you can see, we're in a completely different studio, completely different vibe, with a very special guest today. But first, want to just say hello to you guys. Hope you've been happy, blessed and well and joyous living in the things of God. It's been awesome just seeing all the support. I'm your host, Emmy Moore, and today is such a special episode. Y'all don't even know it yet. It just brings me so, so much joy. I'm here with a poet and now author, an evangelist, a father, a husband.
- [00:42]
B
All the things.
- [00:43]
A
All the things. A performance artist.
- [00:44]
B
Yeah.
- [00:45]
A
All the things. Man of God. We got Preston Perry. Thanks for having me with us here today.
- [00:50]
B
Thanks for having me. It's an honor. I appreciate it. Appreciate it, man. This is dope. Yeah, really dope.
- [00:54]
A
Yeah.
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B
Came all the way from Cali.
- [00:56]
A
Yes. I appreciate it to this moment. And I mean, it had to happen. So I'm blessed above all things. So, yeah, Preston's in Atlanta. That's where we're at now. Which explains the whole setup. I already know some people gonna think I'm Hollywood because they like, yo, you got the lies, you got the three different angles. But we're here in Atlanta, so just running out of studio just was the vibe. And just having you here is. Is such, such a blessing. We're going to be talking about a multitude of things today. Just honestly letting the holy spirit flow, which we talked about before we kind of like sat down, started recording, but more importantly, getting a deeper dive into his book, how to tell the truth and how not to just win arguments, but also hearts. And I think it's so beautiful what you've written, the testimony that you've shared, and more importantly, the heart that you have and how God has transformed you and told your story. So just kind of opening up. I feel like I'm not going to assume that everybody knows you, but to the one who wouldn't. If you could just share your testimony, however you want to tell it.
- [01:57]
B
Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I'm a little black boy from the south side of Chicago. I grew up in a place called the hood, right? And my mom, she raised me, my brother and my sister and my foster sister and, you know, you know, the typical hood story. I mean, poverty stricken areas. I grew up with a lot of uncles who sold drugs. My uncle who raised me, who took me under his wing, was big in the radio station on the south side of Chicago, owned multiple cell phone Shops and people stores or whatever. He was a man in Chicago. He raised me early on, and he was shot and killed, and my cousins were shot and killed. So I just grew up in an environment of just craziness, gang banging, women, eyes and all the stuff. Right. Most of my cousins that I grew up with have been shot and so just grew up in that environment. But it wasn't until I heard the gospel for the first time in the house church, which I put in the book. I was 16 years old. I was really chasing this girl that I liked. I heard the gospel for the first time. And this pastor got up and said, if you believe that God being a God of love means he won't destroy everything he hates, you don't know what love is. And he just starts to talk about how, like God being a God of love, he must hate evil things, right? And. But he's equally a God of love, and he's calling those who. Who live a life of sin to himself. And he'll take away your pain, he'll take away your lack of peace and all the other things. And I just. I remember loving the things that I was doing, but I had a extreme lack of peace.
- [03:40]
A
Yeah.
- [03:41]
B
And I didn't give my life to the Lord that day. I was still out breaking in cars. I got kicked out of three high schools. I got kicked out of two alternative schools. I got arrested 16 times in high school. I mean, I started selling weed when I was 12. I lost my virginity when I was 12. So I was a bad kid, you know what I'm saying? Started gang banging when I was 13. So I was just a really, really, you know, just wild little dude. Didn't. Grew up in church, you know what I'm saying? At all. And when I heard that gospel for the first time, I felt like God was like making me aware that he was watching me. And so I became keenly aware of my sin, and it couldn't. And I couldn't shake it, you know? And it wasn't until like two years later, a friend of mine got shot and killed.
- [04:30]
A
Yeah.
- [04:30]
B
And when my mom was trying to revive him, I felt like the Lord was saying, this is you and your sin. You're dead and you're separated from me. And so from there, I moved to the south suburbs in Chicago with my aunt, and she took me on her wing, introduced me to a guy named Gary, and he led me to the Lord. And I've been saved ever since.
- [04:49]
A
Rocking out ever since. Yeah, Your testimony is so powerful. And even just reading the book, I kind of told you before this, I was weeping and crying, but also laughing, and I felt so much joy.
- [05:01]
B
I wanted to take people on an emotional roller coaster with the book.
- [05:03]
A
Yeah. And I was. I was there, especially to people who are highly emotional, like me. Like, for sure. I think there was some. I think one of the parts that stood out almost immediately about your testimony was your grandmother. And you said something so profound in your book. And you said, you know, my grandmother, she never preached or lectured at us, but she would just pray that the Lord would catch us before a bullet did. And that just ministered to my spirit. Because sometimes I think we think what it means to be. To be one who was a man or a woman of God is to lecture and to overly teach people all the time, but it's also to just be a supporter of their spirit and to just see them as souls and not projects, you know? So I wanted to ask, how did the attitude of your grandmother influence the way that you now impact the people you are discipling?
- [05:49]
B
That's a really good question. I think my grandmother taught me more than anything to live a life out loud for people, you know, because I think, you know, I've always heard people say, especially in the Christian circles, like, speak the gospel and if necessary, use words. And I think, you know, I think that's true to a certain extent. Right. Because I think that what they're essentially trying to communicate is that we should speak the gospel with our life and we don't have to necessarily use words. But I say, you know, preach the gospel, you know, with your life. So when you use words, your words have more impact, you know. And so I think for her, my grandmother didn't speak a lot, but when she did speak, we listened because of how she lived. Right. You know, and so for us, you know, we was just like, when she did finally speak, she hit our ear. She had our attention. Cause we see her love people. Well, we see her love her enemies. We see her consistent. We don't see her lying like a lot of other Christians doing, you know, in our community. And so she left us without an excuse.
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A
Right.
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B
And so for me, you know, when I'm discipling cats, whatever, I want to live a life that's worthy of the gospel. I don't want people to look at me and be like, yeah, I believe in God, but you a hypocrite.
- [07:03]
A
Facts.
- [07:04]
B
I don't want people to look at me and be like, yeah, I don't know if God really exists. Because if you One of his representatives. You a hypocrite. I want to be consistent. I want to be consistent with how I love my family. I want to be consistent how I love my homies. I want to be consistent how I love my children. I want to be consistent how I serve my community. And I think that consistency really just goes a long way. I think people need to see that, and I think that's a part of our witness.
- [07:29]
A
Right. And do you believe that can also stem from people feeling as if they need to be a voice first before they're ever an example? Because I believe just what's been told over me is sometimes the biggest sermon you'll ever preach is the way that you live your life.
- [07:42]
B
Absolutely. Absolutely. I think your voice and your life has to equally matter. I think you don't really get one without the other. Right. Jesus words was important, but his life was also important. Right. And so if we have good deeds without. Without the gospel, we're just philanthropists.
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A
Right.
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B
But if we have the words without the good deeds, you know what I'm saying? We're just a hypocrite.
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A
Right.
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B
And so, like, we have to have both.
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A
Right.
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B
You know what I'm saying? And so that's why I think both have to be married to one another, you know? You know, and so I think the world is looking at the way we talk and the way we live.
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A
Absolutely.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Yeah, yeah. And I think sometimes, like how you said it, either focus one way or the other, but it has to be, again, like, kind of like that marriage and not incarcerating one.
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B
Yeah.
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A
So, yeah, no, that's really good. There's. I mean, there's so many things. I feel like I could go off of that.
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B
Let's do it.
- [08:34]
A
Because I feel like I could just jump here, here and here, just talking about being a representative of the gospel, what that looks like. Another part of your testimony is that you kind of grew up kind of seeing different people of all different places and beliefs around you, and it was almost as if their struggle was your setup that God put before you for you to just be an apologist and be an evangelist. So, I mean, I think my favorite part out of your whole book was encounters that you had with John.
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B
That's everybody's favorite part of the book.
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A
Yeah, yeah. But it's because one is painted like a movie, and then two, it shows how to pursue the heart of those.
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B
And I think people like how I got embarrassed.
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A
Yeah, no, that was my favorite part. I think it was like, that realization of, like, oh, like, I actually didn't hit my goal because, I mean, you said it multiple times in your book, is that it's not looking at people as projects, it's looking at them as souls. And whenever you came to John and then you were like, dang, I don't even know your last name, bro. And I think just. Just to those who don't know what I'm talking about, because I feel like I'm talking. Talking about the book, like everybody knows it. You just kind of saw a lot of Jehovah Witnesses and a lot of Mormonism and Hebrew Israelites just in your hood growing up and just kind of hearing them talk and then didn't even know that those were going to be the same people that God would use you to one day minister to. So, yeah, just kind of give me just what that looks like, what was said in here, just from your mouth.
- [10:04]
B
Yeah, yeah. So with John. So, yeah, I grew up in like a melting pot of different religions. Even before I, you know, gave my life to the Lord. And, you know, I didn't know that God was kind of setting me up to minister to those same people. And so when I first gave my life to the Lord, when Gary led me to Christ, you know, I was the evangelist in my school, you know, so, like, you couldn't. I was just very obnoxious. Like, you couldn't come up to me for five minutes without hearing my testimony. So, like, I just became like the known evangelist, you know, And I was just real rough around the edges. Like I was in the hood last.
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A
Year, you know what I'm saying out there?
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B
And God saved my soul and like, relax.
- [10:40]
A
Yeah, like you kind of doing too much.
- [10:43]
B
But one day this guy walked in the, the. The cl. The classroom with a Bible in his hand. And I'm thinking that he's a Christian. And I'm excited, right, Right. Cuz I'm like, yo, it's another Christian on campus. And, you know, I asked him, was he a Christian? And, you know, and he was like, yeah, I am, but not the, like, not the type of Christian you think, something along the lines of that. And I was just like, okay. So I just thought, asking what he's reading, and I think he just stopped and paused and asked me like, how do I know everything I was taught is true? And I'm like, what do you mean? And so he started to challenge everything that I thought I knew about Christianity, about Jesus being Lord, about the Bible, about, like, my faith and all of these things. And I just remember being Rocked to the core. Like, I remember being like, yo, what is this? You know what I'm saying? And I remember being challenged and feeling embarrassed in front of the whole classroom. And I felt like, you know, this guy might not be a Christian. And so he just embarrassed me in front of the whole class. Like, everything that I thought I knew, he just embarrassed me. Like, I just. I couldn't. I couldn't answer his questions. I couldn't. I didn't have no rebuttals back to. Back to his questions. And so I went home and I just started studying everything about the Jehovah's Witness faith. I was like, I'm going to embarrass him. Like, he embarrassed me. And so probably like a month and a half later, I asked him a question that he couldn't answer in front of the whole class. And I finally stomped him in an argument. And I felt like I beat up the school bully.
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A
Right.
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B
I felt like I finally vindicated myself. And every week we would argue like that. Every week we would argue like that. That day, the guy who led me to the Lord, his name is Gary, he picked me up, and I was so excited to tell him that I just beat up the school bully, that I just finally stomped this Jehovah's Witness who embarrassed me in class. And he just asked me a very simple question. He said, preston, are you still trying to win this dude's heart? And I was like, I was never trying to win his heart. I was always trying to win an argument. And he was like, what is his last name? And I was like, I don't know his last name. And he was like, that's not what we do it for. We don't do it to win arguments, but we do it to win hearts. And so I think that's why the subtitle of the Bible is the story of how God saved me. To win hearts and not just arguments. Because that's just kind of what my. My, My, my. My ministry has been rooted in.
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A
Right.
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B
Making sure. I just question why I do what I do.
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A
Yeah.
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B
You know, because I think a lot of times when we grow in theological information, when we grow in didactic information, I think the. The temptation is, you know, for us to find identity in our information.
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A
That's good. Yeah.
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B
And not in actual people. And so Jesus is the opposite. Jesus came and he was invested in people.
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A
Right?
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B
Right. He poured into people. He loved people. And I think a lot of times, especially in the west, when we start to learn a bunch of information, the information can drive Our evangelism, the information can drive our apologetics and not actually loving and serving people like Jesus did.
- [13:47]
A
And so, yeah, I think that's like, at times, like a. Like a struggle that people tend to face whenever it comes to apologetics and evangelizing and preaching the gospel to others because they believe that I have to come in so much truth and knowledge, and I have to, you know, kind of have the mastermind of a theologian. And it's what you say in the book, and it's completely biblical. It's out of love. And I think of two Timothy as Paul's writing to Timothy. He's saying, when you approach your opponents, I believe it is in chapter three. I think it's verses 16. Don't quote me, but I know it's chapter three somewhere. And it says to face your opponents in gentleness and kindness. And sometimes we fail to do that because you're wanting to win their mind or win an argument rather than their hearts. And it is deeply rooted in pride, right? Because you're wanting to get something for yourself. Like how you say, you. You finally said the question that stumped John, and you was, you was all puffed up, like, oh, man, I finally beat the school bully. But you never actually won his heart. You just won the argument. So I. I think sometimes we could see that a question just pops in my head. I think it's good to ask. I. I was reading in Mark 1 about this leopard man, and Jesus goes and gets away and he prays before the Father, and then he goes back and he heals the upper man. And he says, if you are willing. And he says, I am willing and heals him. And then Jesus says to him, he says, okay, I need you to keep this to yourself, because he was about to do some other work. And this man, because of his eagerness and he was excited, it was great, went out and went against what Jesus just told him. And because of that, Jesus wasn't able to come back in that area and preach to those people because he, the man that he heals, went out and didn't follow his command. And so my question is, is, do you believe a lot of people are eager but not wise?
- [15:41]
B
Yeah, that's a really good question. I do think a lot of people are eager and not wise, which is the reason why Jesus, when Jesus sent his disciples out in twos, he said, you know, you know, go out and preach the gospel, but be wise. As harmless as doves, wise as serpents, but harmless as doves. And so what is he's essentially saying is go out and the ways in which you give the gospel to each person. Right. And so one thing that I found out about evangelism is that, you know, I say it all the time. When we find our identity in the information we know and not the guy we know, we'll treat people like projects and not image bearers.
- [16:16]
A
Yes.
- [16:17]
B
Right. And so, meaning, like, I think a lot of times we go out and we. We want to be led with our information and we forget that people are complex, nuanced individuals. Everybody is different.
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A
Absolutely.
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B
And so we almost kind of treat like it's some like magic potion and it's just like, no. Information really doesn't work like that. Like, God wants our information to be paired with his wisdom.
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A
Absolutely.
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B
Because we're dealing with people.
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A
Right.
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B
Not projects. Right. And so, like, I do think that a lack of wisdom really does get in the way of our apologetics, which is the reason why 1 Peter 3:15, where it says in your hearts, honor Christ, the Lord is holy, always being prepared to make a defense for anyone who actually for the reason, for the hope that is in you, but yet do it with gentleness and respect. Then it goes on to say, but having a good conscience. So when those who revalue a good behavior in Christ may be put to shame. So notice how this, this word apologetics, which derives from the Greek word apologia, which means to make a defense, right. Is surrounded around conduct, behavior and wisdom. It's not the. The main thrux of the past is not knowledge and information. Right. And so I think that God wants us to have wisdom. And I'll say this, a wise person will always be way more effective than the smartest person in the room. Right?
- [17:42]
A
That's good. Yeah, right.
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B
A lot of times people like, they're brilliant, they learn a lot of information, they go to seminary and then they go out like. I'll tell you a quick story.
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A
Okay.
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B
So it was this legacy. It was a thing called Legacy Conference in Chicago. Like, we all did it all, like every year, like me, Lecrae, Andy Mineo, like all the Christian rappers, John Piper, Tim Keller, everybody would come to this conference. And it was a discipleship making conference. And the guy who created this conference was my pastor. And the last day of the conference, we would go out in the hood and we would give the gospel to people. So the goal was everything that we learned at this conference, let's apply it in the hood on the south or the west side of Chicago. And they put me over the evangelism team there. The people who gave me the most problem on the evangelism team were people who just finished seminary or people who was in seminary. Those are the people who gave me the most problem. Now, that old church mother that was on my team, who just been loving Jesus for 30 years. You know what I'm saying? She was. You know what I'm saying? Because she loved God, she knew God, she led with humility. But it's something about knowing a whole bunch of information and not really knowing how to wisely communicate with people that makes us ineffective.
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A
That's right.
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B
You know what I'm saying? And so, for me, I think I just wanted to just focus on God's wisdom in the book. So I think that's why that question was a great question.
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A
Yeah, yeah. And I think it's, like, super important that we focus on that. And I think even more important just to. I think one thing that God has convicted my spirit of is to discern what people need. Because there's something that I have that someone may need, whether if it's a hug or my testimony or sharing what I know about Scripture. And I think sometimes we tend to overshare so much or under share. And I think a part of your testimony mimics that because you said that there was a seed planted inside of you whenever you were in that home church, and you didn't give your life to Christ that day, but the seed was planted. And I think a lot of people aren't cool with being seed planters. And I think it takes a lot of humility to be that one and to obedience. Right. But we have to first be in a posture to discern that. So, I mean, I don't even know, like, a question or a comment, but more so, I think that's just so important to know.
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B
Yeah, no, I definitely think that God wants to raise up a generation of seed planters.
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A
Yeah, that's good.
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B
And the reason why is because I think in a lot of ways, the church has conditioned us to want right now results. And I think that's the reason why we do things like praise, altar calls, and we do things like praise, like, you know, people giving their lives to the Lord. And I think. I think if we're honest in our evangelism, we have developed savior complex. We want to take the credit of someone giving their life to the Lord. Like, we want to take all the credit. We want to say, it was me, and it's just like. No. Like, I do think that God wants to raise up a generation of evangelists who are okay with not seeing the fruit of their work until they get to glory, for sure. And I think God wants to raise up people who are okay with just planting seeds and leaving. Right. Because that is work. And I think a lot of times if a person doesn't fall down and say, what must I do to be saved? We feel like the work wasn't done. But, no, it actually is done, which is the reason why, when I first heard the gospel, I didn't give my life to the Lord, but that was a seed that was planted that allowed me to give my life to the Lord later on. And so I do think that planting seeds is so important. I think the evangelist is some of the main seed planters in the body of Christ.
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A
Yeah. Just knowing your role. Right. Like, your job is to see a plant and it might be someone else's job to water it.
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B
Absolutely.
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A
And then it might be another person's job to maintain that plant. So I think it's discerning, and it's important to know in wisdom that, hey, like, you might not be the one who does it all. And that's okay.
- [21:32]
B
Absolutely.
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A
I think of Ephesians 4 all the time, of how we're all supporting ligaments. It never says that one ligament supports the whole body.
- [21:38]
B
Absolutely.
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A
They all work together to keep it in a complimentary. Right.
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B
For sure.
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A
So I think sometimes God has made you to be a hand, but you're trying to operate as a hand and as a neat cap has a toe, and it's like, wait, no, you got just one job.
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B
And also, too. You know, that's a really good point, because I, you know, one of the things I say in the book is that God is going to use you how he has uniquely made you.
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A
Yeah.
- [22:00]
B
And I don't think that people should think your evangelism or your apologetics or your teaching should look like mine. I think a lot of times when in evangelism, people think, oh, I'm an evangelist, I got to go up and walk up and talk to strangers.
- [22:11]
A
Right.
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B
It's like, no.
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A
Or I got to have a podcast.
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B
Or we got to have a podcast. And it's like, no. Like, if God has made us all differently, what makes us think he wants to use us all the same?
- [22:19]
A
Absolutely.
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B
Right. And so, like, he. He want. Wants to use all of us how he has uniquely made us. And so for me, you know, it's just like, you know, trying to figure out what that. What that is.
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A
Right.
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B
You know, how God has made me and how. And where he's placed me is, I think, is really important.
- [22:35]
A
Right. I even think a part of that, too, is, like, knowing that you may reach the people that other people may not reach. Because I think a lot of people may chase a platform or chase the stage, and it's like, nah. Like, you actually need to reach your neighbor.
- [22:49]
B
I'm sorry. You got me going.
- [22:51]
A
No, and that's okay.
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B
That's what I preach. That's why I still look like a hood baby.
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A
Right.
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B
Because a lot of people in the church can't reach hood babies.
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A
Right.
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B
You know what I'm saying? And so, like, literally, I was just in the West End three days ago because I got a property over there, and I talk to the shorties over there all the time. And when I slide down on them, I'm always talking to them about Jesus, and I'm always talking to them about the Lord. But they listened to me because of the package that I came up in.
- [23:17]
A
Absolutely.
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B
You know what I'm saying? And so, like, you know, one thing that I realized is that God did not save me from my culture, but God saved me for my culture to reach my culture.
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A
That's good.
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B
And I think a lot of times when we get saved, we think that we have to conform to what we think Christians should look like. And it's like, no. Like, you think it's on purpose that I was from the hood? Like, that I came from the hood. Like, you think it's on accident? Like, no, I came from the hood because that was God's sovereignty. That was God's sovereignty that allowed me to be where I came from. And I'll be kind of, like, doing a disservice to his sovereignty if I try to act like I'm somebody else.
- [23:53]
A
That's good.
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B
You know what I'm saying? And I wouldn't be able to reach the people that I've been able to reach if I tried to act like somebody else.
- [23:58]
A
Right. And I think, like, an example that you just shared in your testimony is that, like, Gary, for an example, he gave you just an image of that almost immediately. Absolutely. Because your auntie was like, hey, I got someone who's going to mentor you. You're thinking in your head some, like, white dude with some slacks going to pull up, you know? And it's someone who.
- [24:15]
B
You really read the book?
- [24:16]
A
No, I did.
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B
And it's.
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A
And it's someone who looks just like you. Well, no, I told you before we came in here, like, I'm really invested, but it's because I Just. I just know what the Lord is. What he's doing in your life is just so precious. But. But he pulled up looking just like you, and your heart was open to receive him because he looks like you. So, like, same similar story. Like, you see, I got, like, these, like, ballet flats with, like, socks on and, like, camo shorts and, like. But, you know, people just don't, like, dressed like this, and that's okay. I think a lot of times when. When I first came to church, the immediate response was, Emmy, you gotta change what you look like. You gotta change your clothes. You can't be out of the box like that. It's looking too secular. And it's so interesting how we'll hyperfocus on being set apart, but never on being the salt of the earth. So I believe the Lord has called me to break stereotypes and strongholds by being the salt of the earth and simultaneously being set apart and holy. And I think sometimes we lose sight of that by conforming to the image of the church and what culture says, what church culture says, essentially, and not what God is calling us to be.
- [25:18]
B
Yeah, right, Absolutely. Because Christianity is not about behavior modification, but it's about a heart change. And I think a lot of times Christians try to be the salt of the earth by what? Like. Like looking churchy or acting churchy or acting churchy.
- [25:31]
A
The same things that look churchy. Like, kind of same experience. Like how you say you were just out the other day and you were just evangelizing to people and they were able to receive you because of how you present yourself. Me and my boyfriend, we went to Urban Outfitters a few days ago, and I was looking ratchet head to toe. I was like, oh, no, I look crazy because my hair. We just did an eight hour road trip and everything. But there were these two girls that came up to us. I would have never known that. They listened to my podcast and they go, wow, like, we really love your podcast. And, like, you're really reaching us, you know? And that just encouraged my spirit of, like, man. Like, God has positioned me intentionally to reach people just like that, that other people couldn't reach that if I were to have, I don't know, like, blonde hair, blue eyes, and, like, amber wear, all amber combie or whatever it may be. That's not my style. That's somebody else's. But I have to look the way that I look to reach the hearts of those who also look like me. Especially coming from la, where it's filled with a lot of people in the LGBTQ community, a lot of people who are doing drugs, gang affiliated, whatever it may look like, or influencers. I started off as an influencer, and then I fell into Christianity and changed my whole, whole lifestyle around. So I'm able to be a voice for those where there's no voice.
- [26:41]
B
That's dope. That's dope.
- [26:42]
A
And I think it's important, like how you said that God's not trying to change your mission field. He's just trying to change your heart. And the Lord taught me a lot of that. And I think it's cool to hear somebody else have that same perspective. And even just like with Gary, like, setting that example for you so early in your walk, I think is really dope.
- [27:01]
B
No, no, Gary was. Gary was very huge in my life. I don't think if, you know, I think representation matters.
- [27:07]
A
Right.
- [27:08]
B
I think people want to see themselves represented in the body of Christ. And I think that if we don't have that, it can almost make us feel like this is God in heaven. Want me? I don't see nobody serving him that looks like me.
- [27:25]
A
Yeah.
- [27:25]
B
And, you know, I had this idea that Christianity was just for old people. I was like, oh, of course you saved, because you're gonna die soon. Like, you just, you know, you.
- [27:33]
A
That's what I used to think running up.
- [27:35]
B
Right, right, right. But Gary came, you know, dressed like me, looking like me, riding the Mustang, you know what I'm saying? Looking. You know what I mean? Looking like a dude from Chicago. But his heart was new and he loved the Lord, and that was just extremely impactful in my life.
- [27:52]
A
Yeah. I think God using Gary to get to you was so inspiring. I think just the humility that Gary had, especially when it came to, like, the altercation of you guys going to the bank and he was hitting on the girl or just like a little gum buttle, I guess. And he was just filled with so much conviction and prayed with you in the car. I think it's so good that our. That. That you have mentorship that holds themselves accountable while also holding you accountable as well. And I think that was, like, really awesome for you to witness that just so early in the game because you're like, oh, man. Like, this guy really takes God seriously. But not even that he takes God seriously, but he really loves him. So I think that was, like, so beautiful to just see Gary's love for God shine on, the love that you were going to now develop for the Lord. It was just really cool to see.
- [28:41]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Because what he was doing at that time, he was discipling me, right? You know, I wasn't a Christian yet, but he took me under his wing, and he began to disciple me. He was a couple of years older than me, and when we went in the bank, you know, the lady flirted with him. And I'm thinking, like, oh, my, my. My boy about to get some action for the first time. You know, um, I've never seen him flirt back with a woman. And, you know, I'm thinking, like, nothing of it. And then, you know, he kind of clams up and drives off really fast off the. From the window. And then 10 minutes later, he pulls the car on the side of the road and he apologizes to me. And, you know, in that apology, I'm like, I'm confused. I'm like, what are you apologizing to me? He was like, because my heart wasn't right. He was like, I was just really thinking lustfully. I was trying to, like, lead this girl astray. And he was like, it's not about what I. What you saw. It's about what the Lord saw. Yeah, the Lord saw my heart. My heart wasn't right. And that really impacted me. And he said, you know, can you pray with me? So he started praying in the car. And this is like, I gave my life to the Lord the next day. Yeah, the next day. And while he was praying, I felt like the Lord was saying, preston, this is what it means to love me. Me, and you don't love me like this. And so I think a lot of times when we think about discipleship, we think that we have to live perfect lives.
- [30:02]
A
Absolutely.
- [30:02]
B
And it's like, no, we don't have to live perfect lives. We just have to just demonstrate that we trust in a perfect God for help. Right. And so, like, for me, it was. It was him running to this God that he had a relationship with and showing me that my life was not like this. You know, I think I wrote in the book I, like, that day Gary's life showed me that I was a cemetery. I was dead inside. And I think that's what it showed me. So I think in his failure, I actually saw my failure. I saw my weakness. But I also saw that he had a God that he can call on. And I did.
- [30:37]
A
Right, Right. There's, like, so many key people in your book that brought you just to that point of salvation. Like, even just with, like, how you said, just like the pastor in that home church, Gary, even your friend Chris, and et cetera. Like, all those situations brought you to that certain point. And yeah, whenever I was reading your story about your friend Chris, that made me bawl like a baby. You wrote it so beautifully to where it honored him very well. Like it honored his story very well. And I think one of the parts that really spoke to me, just kind of seeing it kind of go towards the end of you wrapping up that story and the testimony that you had with Chris was the moment that his testimony ended, yours started. It almost felt like. And I think we have to understand that sometimes we will go through certain situations, trials and tribulations and God will end something just to start something within sight of us. And I think you sharing your story inspired a lot of people that God is going to minister you through how many people to just chase after your heart. And yeah, I just love your story and everything that you shared in your testimony. So powerful.
- [31:51]
B
Yeah. Yeah. My friend. My friend Chris getting shot was a really hard moment in my life. And I had somebody ask me one time, you know, like, why did I write his death in such a poetic and beautiful way? And I think language helps honor people.
- [32:11]
A
Yeah.
- [32:12]
B
I think exploring language, exploring like the beautiful possibilities of it. Like when we're. When we're writing especially about a person that we care about, I think it's a way to honor them. But it's also a way to, like. I don't think that we always have to write about tragedies in like non creative ways. Right, right. How can we allow people to feel what we felt?
- [32:39]
A
Right.
- [32:39]
B
And to experience what we. And I think that's the beautiful thing about creative writing. Right. But yeah, like his life. His life and his death really impacted me. But more than anything, it showed me that I was far away from God. That's the main thing that it did. It showed me that like. Cause my friend told me to pray for him when he was dying. And that was the first time I felt like a hypocrite. I was like, I don't think God gonna hear me, you know, if I pray, I don't think he's gonna hear me. And I don't know if he would or he wouldn't, but at that moment, that's what I felt.
- [33:18]
A
Right.
- [33:19]
B
Right. And because I was living a life that I knew God hated.
- [33:23]
A
Right.
- [33:24]
B
And so I think God just used that situation to draw me back to him, to. To leave me, to leave out of that neighborhood. And it ultimately saved my life. It saved my life. And I'm grateful. I'm grateful that it happened now. I don't understand the Sovereignty of the Lord, you know, I wish Chris was still here.
- [33:44]
A
Yeah.
- [33:44]
B
You know, but sometimes the Lord has a. Has a funny way of using tragedy to draw others. It's kind of hard to understand it, but he does.
- [33:57]
A
Yeah.
- [33:57]
B
I don't want to give too much away. I want you to listen to it.
- [33:59]
A
Yeah. No, it's okay. I'm like. I know. I feel like I'd be spoiling everything. I'm like, no, because when I tell you, like, red, front, front, back, like, even before your team sent me the book, it was already at my doorstep, like, well, it's just. Because I just love your ministry. Just simply. I love what you guys are about, you and your wife. You specifically with you reaching so many people and just seeking them for where they are. Even just watching videos of you. I think the most popular one that you did was recently with the LDS elders. And that was. Man, that was insane to watch. Just those conversations that you were having with them. And even you speaking to atheists in Hebrew Israelites. Oh, man. Oh, I. I was. I'm so glad I remember to tell you this, bro. I saw a video of you last week. I think it was you and, like, Philip, and you were talking to these Hebrew Israelites on South Beach. Yes. Oh, my gosh. It was so funny because you kept looking back, like, bro, is this man gonna let me talk? But. But, man, was it so beautiful to see the patience that you had with them. Even though they were speaking so loud, they wouldn't let you speak. See, Philip was. He was just like, you're not gonna let my man stop. It was so funny.
- [35:11]
B
Philippy, about that action.
- [35:12]
A
No, he was. It was so funny because you go to the comments, and they was like, they. They like, Phil, like, Peter, you ready to cut an ear? I'm like, nah, for real. But. But I. I think that video showed me a lot, especially in moments where people are raising their voices at you. They're trying to come at you with a whole bunch of things, if you know scripture or not, that could potentially throw you into a lot of confusion and how to handle that with grace and more importantly, compassion. Like, you were asking this man for his name. Like, hey, what's your name? Like, who are you? You know? And he's like, what the heck? What's this dude talking about? And I think whether if you're speaking to a Hebrew Israelite or if you're talking to an LDS elder or whether if it's your mom or your neighbor, you know of, like, how to truly approach someone in compassion. And kindness with the intention to change again their heart and not just win an argument. So I definitely would ask for you to share your wisdom on what that looks like, because I think some people would read this book or hear about apologetics. They're thinking about arguing, they're thinking about a whole bunch of truth, and they're thinking that you have to do it again with strangers or with people who are so opposing to what you have to believe, when it could just be your parents and you don't have to do it on like a large scale. It could be your brother, it could be friends at school. So what does that look like? To develop compassion for others, to reach their hearts and to do it intentionally.
- [36:32]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. One thing that I've learned when sharing the gospel with people, especially when people get angry, people, you know, you know, kind of get like anti. It's like people don't make you do anything. They just bring what's in you out. So if you're an angry person, you can try to hide that anger. The right person gonna bring it out.
- [36:58]
A
Right.
- [36:59]
B
If you an impatience, impatient person, the right person is going to bring that impatience out.
- [37:04]
A
Right.
- [37:04]
B
So like, for me, I've learned that it's about giving things to the Lord. Like, Lord, I'm not a patient person. Help me, you know, and I think, you know, we have to practice surrendering, giving, you know, our, our, our failures and our flaws of the Lord before we deal with other broken image bearers.
- [37:26]
A
Absolutely.
- [37:26]
B
You know what I'm saying? So I really think that's what it's about now as far as, you know, giving the gospel to, you know, family members and friends. I honestly think that's what we should start. Yeah, I think that, you know, like, don't go out trying to give the gospel to everybody when you won't even share the gospel to the people in your own proximity.
- [37:45]
A
Absolutely.
- [37:45]
B
Right. And so for me, it is. It is, man. Like, how can I be intentional with the people around me? And sometimes God might not have you share the gospel with people, strangers. He might just have you only giving the gospel to the people that you know. Right. And that's okay too, you know what I'm saying? And I think that like, like I said, God is going to use us how he is uniquely made us, all of us. And so, like, he might have me going out being a street preacher. Right? He might have you. Like, you're like, focus on your family. So I tell people all the time, when we think about evangelism, we think about apologetics, I think the first word we think about is bonus. But bonus is not doing what men are afraid to do. But bonus is about obedience.
- [38:23]
A
Right.
- [38:24]
B
Like, are you obedient? God has you strategically where he wants you. He has you place where he wants you. And are you being effective where he's planning you. Right. And so I do think that sometimes we overthink, you know, and it's just like. No, like, pay attention to where God has you in your life and how he can utilize you where he has you in your life.
- [38:45]
A
Yeah. I believe that's a human thing. We tend to overcomplicate simplicity. And sometimes God uses the simple things to impact others the most. I mean, you think about it, like, when I'm weak, he's strong. So it's like God can use the simplicity of my weakness to execute his strength.
- [39:00]
B
Absolutely.
- [39:01]
A
And so I think sometimes, like how you said that, humility coming in a posture to release it onto God, admitting your condition. Like, anytime you see healing in the Bible is in people asking for healing, they first have to admit their condition. So, like the leper man, I'm a leopard man. The woman who has been bleeding, she acknowledges that she's been bleeding and that she needs a savior. She needs someone to help her. And so I think the first step to winning other people's hearts is to first let God win yours. And you do that by admitting your condition. And I think we lack a lot of humility and tend to fall into the cycle of pride when we don't practice surrendering to the Lord, even with small things. And I think sometimes we make it seem like this big ordeal that I have to give God, you know, all these things all at once. But it's a process. It takes time. One of the analogies I always think of every time I'm upset with the process or something that I'm going through. God's like, you don't. You don't take a Polaroid out right away and put it out into the light. It's too overexposed, and you're never gonna see the image. It gotta marinate in the darkness for a little bit before you see the whole picture.
- [40:08]
B
That's good.
- [40:08]
A
Even like a crock pot. I don't know who I heard said this, but it was so good. Like, sometimes we want microwavable answers. When God is a crock pot God, you gotta sit, you gotta let it marinate, you gotta let the juices flow. And it's because patience is one of the fruits of the spirit. And we act in urgency, especially when it pertains to spreading the gospel at times, I mean, just from a place of accountability. So I shared with you just a little bit before I came in here, I did not grow Christian, grew up Christian at all. So my parents, they. The basis is that they knew the name of God, but they never understood or acknowledged the nature of God to where they went to. What am I talking about? Bible study. I'm talking about church, like Easter and Christmas and you know, Jesus is good, woo, woo. But never exemplified his principles. And to be fair, my parents did all that they could do in my life. My parents were kids having a kid. My parents had me when they were 18. And from there I could totally see that they did the best that they could. And I praise God for that simultaneously at the same time, because I never understood the nature of God. And whenever I encountered God and then I started to receive healing and God started to just be so gentle with my spirit and just take me from just like Joseph Pittsa palace. That's my testimony. And from that, when I started falling more in love with the information rather than the identity of being a child, started kind of coming a little harsh towards people, especially when it pertains to this is me being accountable, like spreading the gospel. Same story. Whenever you were speaking with John the Jehovah Witness, there was almost an excitement to be right. And I've experienced that before. And I think sometimes we can act as if we're on the same team as humans just in general, but there's this lingering pride that wants to conquer, have that savior complex and be right. And I think we not only see that when it pertains to strangers and having conversations with other Christians, but even online on social media. Why you have like other. You have people who have podcasts dedicated to dis pastors and to dis other people, when what apologetics is what it means to defend your faith is to defend it in love and compassion. That's what 1 Peter 3:15 says. That's what 22 Timothy 3 says. That's what the fruits of the Spirit even backs up. And we even see the way that. But Jesus intimately speaks to his people. It's always out of gentleness. Even like I love the imagery of Jesus washing feet because I think sometimes we think, oh, like Jesus just washed their feet because he wanted to be humble. But there was a whole process before that. First he invited them into his space. And it was Hebrew tradition that the lowest servant of the household was the one who washed feet. So Jesus acknowledged Himself as a lowly servant. And we get to the point of him washing the feet, but didn't even acknowledge that he took the steps to even prepare for that. He got up early from seating. He went and put on his robe. He filled up the bins of water, like, even prepared for serving. And I think sometimes we get so excited to deliver, but never for the preparation. And I think that secret time with the Lord getting in your word, developing that compassion with God first, before you're trying to preach that same compassion to others, if you don't even have that revelation for yourself yet, is crucial. And I think we're seeing a lot of voices talk about things that they haven't even received a revelation on.
- [43:34]
B
And, I mean, I think the reason why that is, though, is that I think, you know, we learn so many different ideologies and so many different worldviews from social media and even from the pulpit. But I think, you know, I think the church has done a really good job of teaching us how to call a spade a spade, but they only teach us how to play cards for real. We don't. We don't really know how to go out. So we know how to go out and talk at people, but we don't really learn how to talk to people. Right, Right. And so we were really good at like, oh, I know what you believe and why you believe in, and this is why. But it's just like, we don't learn from one another. Right. And so I think, man, the good. Like, nobody can teach you how to serve them better than you, going out and allowing them to teach you how to serve them.
- [44:21]
A
Absolutely right.
- [44:21]
B
People teach you how to serve them. People teach you their worldviews. And that's the reason why Jesus condescended and became a. Right.
- [44:30]
A
Yeah.
- [44:30]
B
Like Emmanuel was God with us. Right. And so he came to live amongst his own creation. Right. To empathize. Right. Hebrews 4:14. It says, seeing now that we have a great high priest, Jesus, the son of man, who was passed through the heavens. It says, for we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weakness. Peep that.
- [44:50]
A
Yeah.
- [44:51]
B
We do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weakness, but one who was tempted in every aspect, just as we are yet without sin. Right. And so what that essentially is saying is that man, God literally became man to empathize with the fact that you're weak. So he just didn't die for you, but he came to empathize with you. So God condescended, humbled himself and came down right, to live amongst you, to learn with you, to do all of these things. And Christians honestly think that they can reach people by doing the opposite of what God did, by staying up here. It's interesting. It's like, yeah, it's literally at the core, Antichrist. It's not even what Jesus did. Right. And so I think that we just have to understand that, man, the way we learn about different worldviews and ideologies does not teach us how to engage with people. Well, it doesn't.
- [45:48]
A
Yeah, yeah. And I think, I believe you said this in your book. If you didn't, you could correct me. But either I heard it in your book or I heard it somewhere else. But sometimes people don't wanna be a lectured, they just wanna be heard. And I think we miss that at times, is that sometimes we don't give people the opportunity to just be heard, seen and loved.
- [46:06]
B
Absolutely.
- [46:07]
A
And to be a vessel of God to hear, see and love them. Because we're so busy trying to be right and to prove a point and giving them what we think that they need. When like you said, people are gonna tell you exactly what they need by the way that they speak to you, their body language, the way that they're operating and living in their life. You just have to be discern to pay attention. And I think sometimes we lack that. Like, I think a lot of people want to help others, but then they lack the discernment and then they lack the intentionality to seek people for what they actually need by paying attention. Whether it is like how I said, body language, all these things.
- [46:40]
B
Every heart has a cry, right? You just gotta ask the right questions and listen well to hear it right, you know, And a lot of times we don't, we don't really hear the heart cry of a person because we're, we're too busy talking. You know, that's why social media gets my nurse so much, because so many people, it's like, y'all talk so much, right? And you listen so little. You know, I have people online telling me about me. It's like, how can you tell me about me, right? You don't even know me. Like, you know what I'm saying? It's weird, but that's the world we live in, right?
- [47:12]
A
Do you believe, like just so you could help me? Because I'm kind of in. Maybe not on the same scale, but sure, to an extent, yeah. But it's almost as if people kind of develop this one sided relationship with you to where they think they're in a posture and at a place of authority to then speak upon your life. And I, I, I kind of noticed that with some people who would leave comments on my page and they swore up and down and, and sideways that they knew me. And it was because they listened to my podcast, they see my Instagram post, and they're like, oh, because I know Emmy, because I pay attention to her, then I think that I have the ability to call her out. And I believe I heard a pastor say the best he said rebuke without relationship is spiritual assault. And I believe a lot of the times leaders that are in the social media space and they're getting rebuked by people that they don't know they're actually being spiritually assaulted. And I just kind of wanted to ask or maybe just ask you to just kind of spin off of that.
- [48:09]
B
Yeah, no, that's a good question. You know, I think two things can be true at the same time. You know how people use. Well, they often use the scripture out of context. To whom much is given, much is required. It's just like you're using that because I have a platform, a large platform. And you don't like. No. As much as required of you, too.
- [48:30]
A
Right.
- [48:31]
B
So I shouldn't even respect you if you hold me to a standard you don't hold yourself to. Right. But I do think that the truth is that with a large platform comes responsibility.
- [48:43]
A
Absolutely.
- [48:43]
B
And it comes backlash. Right. Because especially on social media, because people do have an illusion that they know you.
- [48:49]
A
Yeah.
- [48:50]
B
Social media is like that little, that little, you know, that little sign on the rearview mirror that says, objects in this mirror seem closer than what they are or whatever. And that's literally social media.
- [49:02]
A
That's good.
- [49:03]
B
Right. People on social media seem closer to you than what they really are. And so I think people develop this illusion that they have some insight of your life that they really don't have. And so because of that, the downside of that is if you're going to be used by the Lord, if you're going to have a platform on social media, you just got to deal with people listening to you. But I tell people all the time, I can't control what you say. But don't get mad if I don't listen.
- [49:33]
A
Right.
- [49:34]
B
I'm not obligated to listen to you. Like, I'm just not. Right. And so I think for me, you know, I answer to the Lord. You know, secondly, it's my family and then my local community and so I think because you share your life and if you share your story and a young girl resonates with you so much, she can, you know, she probably can feel like she knows you because it's like you made her feel like you know her, right? And so when you say something that she disagrees with for the first time, she's going to automatically, you know, communicate that, that, that anger or that frustration with you. And it's just like, no, like. And you know, like, she can do that. But that doesn't mean that you should start dictating how you live based on what other people say for sure. Also, too, I'll say this. I honestly think if I ever became a pastor, which I probably would never.
- [50:30]
A
You never know.
- [50:32]
B
I probably would never, right? The one of the first things I'll have my younger people do in my church is take social media classes. Like, I would, I would. Like, you couldn't be a part of my church. And I see you like, I was discipling this one dude, for example, right, back in Chicago. And I'm, I'm a straight shooter, right? I love you. Well, but if I see you doing some goofy stuff, I'm gonna call you out, right? And I, like, I disciple him, right? So I know what he struggles with. He struggles with loving people. That's what he struggles with, right? He struggles with loving people. Well, like, he was a selfish dude. I still love him, you know what I'm saying? And I still talk to him and he's still a selfish dude, you know what I'm saying? And he was on social media, I was on social media and somebody famous did something in the public or whatever and the Shade Room is going in on this person or whatever and the whole world is going in on this person. And I go into comments just to see what people saying. And I see his comment, you see, bro, I see his comment going in on this girl and I called him up, I said, bro, I'm looking at this, you know, such and such, bro, I don't even wanna say the person's name who did something in the public. Yeah, I saw that, man. She wrong for that. I'm like, well, I see your comment here. Why you leave a comment? And he was like, because she wrong for that.
- [51:52]
A
Yeah.
- [51:52]
B
I said, bro, you don't love her, nor do you love the person that she did something to, right? You just wanna take the opportunity to beat her up on social media. I said, delete that. Yeah, delete that, right? I was like, one. You don't know this person, right? And you're just bored, right? It's just Tuesday. And you don't have nothing to do. And you're using social media to beat somebody up. And that's what we do. It's like. And that's the reason why I tell people when influencers, my friend right now, he's developing a platform and I tell people like Preston, you seem so unbothered. And you know, I'll be unbothered because these people don't be mad for real, right?
- [52:33]
A
Heavy on that.
- [52:34]
B
Fake rage, right?
- [52:35]
A
Fake rage. They comment one thing 10 minutes later, they don't even think about it.
- [52:39]
B
Fake rage. It's either fake rage or self righteousness with a lot of these people. You know what I'm saying? I see people bashing. You talk about people bashing pastors. People be bashing pastors because they think they see they fruit. It's like, no, the Bible says that we know a good tree by the fruit it produce. Yes, yes. But you have to understand that you're watching somebody fruit from miles and miles away. Like, you'll be a fool to say you don't have no fruit. What if their fruit is really little and you just can't see it? You're not in their life to see it. And so I literally would like, tell people that if you want to critique anybody, let their people be in your local community. Get off social media. Stop trying to correct Christians that you do not know. Like, my church, people in my church wouldn't do it and they did do it. They get called out. Like, I just think it's, it's damaging. It can be discouraging to people who have ministries. It's like, man, like, yeah, like leave people alone.
- [53:36]
A
Right? And I think even no matter how great quote unquote of a pastor you are, or a disciple or a teacher or a podcast or whatever it may be, is we all fall short of the glory, right? And always having that real expectation and it's realistic, right? We all fall short. And I think sometimes we're putting a microscope to people's sin. And condemnation is never fun. And influencing that shouldn't be joyous, right? Like I be thinking, I'm like, do you enjoy yourself when you're leaving that comment? Because you, you shouldn't, you shouldn't be feeling joy when you're condemning another brother or sister. And again, knowing your posture, your place and your authority to, to call somebody out if that is your job. Like, again, if it is one of your friends or someone you're discipling like, okay, sure, but like a random person, like I always say on a, on a Thursday morning, just because, and you want to feel rage or an emotion for a moment, like, man, that's not it.
- [54:28]
B
Yeah.
- [54:28]
A
You know, so I think your position is very interesting. And I think you've also been in just kind of the social media or at least like in front of cameras for a while now to where you've kind of figured out the ropes. I think sometimes us as leaders, we could talk a lot about like, the leader side. So how could of us receiving it, you know what it's like to be unbothered, to not let those things get to you. But I think there's also like, a message that we could speak to those who want to leave those comments and have those really, I guess, like, heinous things to say. And it's because the mouth speaks what the heart is full of. So there's something being stirred up on the inside that's causing you to respond this way. And I think if people were able to do a little introspective work and they were able to just heal a little bit and like how you said, like, people are going to bring up what's inside of you. And so I think it's just a matter of people healing and walking it out with the Lord and not expecting other people to be there, their God, you know?
- [55:27]
B
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I, I, I do think people need to, to heal, but I also think people need to focus on being discipled in their own community.
- [55:35]
A
Right.
- [55:35]
B
It's like, go get some discipleship.
- [55:38]
A
For sure.
- [55:38]
B
A lot of this is just a lack of discipleship and spiritual immaturity.
- [55:41]
A
Absolutely.
- [55:42]
B
It's just like you're just not a mature Christian and that's the reason why you're commenting on this pastor's page, telling him to repent. But it's just like, I bet you if I come in your local community, you're not that actually submitted under any authority.
- [55:55]
A
Absolutely. That.
- [55:56]
B
And so, like, you know, I think it's a discipleship issue. A lot of people who like, A lot of people who talk like that are not discipled. Well, they're not, you know, they're not submitted under authority either. Trying to be somebody authority on social media, it's like, yeah, yeah.
- [56:10]
A
I think that's actually very interesting that you bring that up. And I would love your perspective on this because especially being one who is like, young and has a podcast and has, like, influence that God has graced me with. No, I've had to take well, James 3 says it all day. Like if you're teaching the word, it comes with a lot more responsibility. I take that seriously. So behind the scenes, I'm getting mentored, I'm plugged into my church, I'm serving under them. I serve a high school ministry. Like I'm doing the things that I know I can do in my control and let God do the rest to do the work that he's called me to do in the first place. I think we'll have a lot of people who wanna do the work, but they won't do again, like the preparation. So a lot of people wanna microphone, but they don't wanna get mentor. A lot of people want to go on a stage, but they're not plugged into a church. And I think it's really sad seeing a lot of people trying to put themselves onto a mic and they don't have a home church. And even like a lot of these, and I will never name call in a day in my life, but a lot of people who are hosting podcasts and even like leading worship, they don't even have mentors. They're not plugged into a church, they're not serving anywhere. And it's almost as if like they're just showing up to show their giftings and then leaving.
- [57:20]
B
Yeah, yeah, I don't want to. I don't, you know, and I've, I've talked about this before and I've heard people who don't have a local community say, man, you're being self righteous. And it's like, no, it's not really being self righteous. It's actually being biblical because like, you know, God establishes church for a reason. Right, right. And that's just, you know, like the truth. Like God established his church for a reason. He gave us pastors, elders, deacons, you know, leaders for a reason. Right. Even when we see second Timothy, when Peter is in prison and he's writing to his minting faith and he says the famous scripture we, you know, he told Timothy, let no one despise you for your use.
- [58:00]
A
Right.
- [58:01]
B
But a couple sentence after that he said, because the elders have watched your life, right. And have determined that you're ready for ministry. Right. And so like, you know, a lot of times people are on the road or doing podcasts and not submitted to the local community. And I think the danger behind that is you have strangers to confirm where you are with the Lord and not a local community who could actually watch your life.
- [58:26]
A
Yeah.
- [58:27]
B
And I think that's, I think that's I think that's the danger of not being in a local community because it's the local church job to make sure you don't steer away. To make sure, you know, to hold you accountable, but also to love you. Right. To feed you, to clothe you. Like, you know, when I first came to the body of Christ at 19, you know, I thought I didn't need church until God came and discipled me and showed me the need. And then when I was broke, the church fed me. When I was hungry, the church fed me. You know, when the Bible says, you know, none of you should have lack, a lot of people in the church use that scripture to say, we all should be rich. It's like, no, like the Bible means. Like, we all shouldn't have lack. Because if we're truly the body of Christ, if we're truly the church, everybody should be taken care of.
- [59:17]
A
Yeah.
- [59:17]
B
So it's the church's job to take care of us. And you cannot be taken care of by God's people if you're not connected to God's people.
- [59:26]
A
Right, exactly. That.
- [59:27]
B
That's the. You know what I'm saying? This is the reason why, in his wisdom, he left. What? He just didn't leave us. He left before he established his church. And so his church is an extension of him. You don't get his church without him.
- [59:41]
A
That's it.
- [59:41]
B
You don't get his church without him. And so it's like you trying to serve Jesus. You can't come in my crib and rock with me, talk with me, and you never talk to my wife.
- [59:51]
A
Right.
- [59:52]
B
You just. It won't happen.
- [59:53]
A
Right.
- [59:54]
B
You. You know what I'm saying? You don't rock with my wife. You don't rock with my bra. You don't rock with me. And so if I have that mentality, what makes you think God doesn't have that mentality? Yeah, and so, like, I think that people have to just understand that.
- [60:07]
A
Yeah. And I think it's a balance of knowing passion and order. Because I think sometimes people will move so much in passion but be disobedient in the order that God has called us to operate in. So it's being discerning of both. I mean, 1 Corinthians points that out. I believe it's chapter 14, and it says, but in all ways, be eager to prophesy, but do it in an orderly fashion. And it's. We hear the first. First part. Be eager, okay, let me go and get it. Let me go and operate in passion. Let me go and get on the stand. Let me go and do this and, and be the head of this. But, but do it in an orderly fashion. Do it with patience, you know, like mimic the fruits of the spirit. And I think what you just said was so wise and so profound that yeah, that was definitely so, so good. Especially man, like all of it. And yeah, I think everything is established for a reason obviously. And even Jesus mimics that, that, you know, I mean Jesus was submitted under his Father.
- [60:59]
B
Yeah.
- [61:00]
A
And so if Jesus did that, how much more should we. So it's really just replicating Jesus's footsteps. I, I think one of the greatest advices I, I could ever give to anyone, well how do I get closer to God? Just follow Jesus. If you really want to see someone who does it. Well in scripture you see a lot of people who fall and I believe there's such thing in. Okay, I could hear a wrong story and I know how to do it right because of based off of their wrong. But, but there's, there's such thing as following the example of Jesus. Jesus did it perfectly. You want to know how to go to war? Well look at what he did in Matthew chapter four. He fought back with the word. The enemy was persistent in trying to make him stumble. But Jesus was just as persistent as giving him scripture.
- [61:41]
B
Jesus was faithful with the word of God.
- [61:42]
A
That's true. So it's operating the same way that Jesus did and really studying who is God, not just what is he telling me but who is he? Because the moment I figure out who he is, is everything else is going to come into alignment. It's really just that. And so I think it's, I think it's just changing and acknowledging your intentions of what you're really pursuing.
- [62:03]
B
That's good.
- [62:03]
A
Is it that self righteousness? Is it for you to be a good Christian? Is it for you to be an all knowing or theological Christian or is it to really know God?
- [62:11]
B
Fire.
- [62:11]
A
We're children of God. Right. So it's like how, how am I supposed to live in the inheritance that God has given me if I don't even recognize him as my Father first? I was talking with one of my friends yesterday and he said whenever the saints prayer of our Father who arts in heaven, like how will thee by the name? Like you're addressing him as our Father, not our King, not.
- [62:32]
B
He's a personal, he's a personal God.
- [62:34]
A
Yeah, it's at times we miss that and I think we can miss that at times. Like how you say over and over in your book is we fall more in love with the information of God rather than the nature of who he actually is.
- [62:45]
B
That's good.
- [62:45]
A
And I think sometimes we can fall into this lane than the other when we're not fully pursuing the compassion of God. And I believe one of the ways that you could become more compassionate for God is serving his people, and that's through evangelism. Is I'm serving you, is I'm seeking your heart, is that I'm discerning what you need, and I'm trusting that the spirit of the Lord has given me the wisdom, and not necessarily all the knowledge, but the wisdom that I need to minister to your spirit because I care about the soul that's inside of you.
- [63:15]
B
That's good.
- [63:16]
A
And when you don't have that empathy or let alone that compassion for someone, someone you missed the mark because you're no longer speaking to that person's heart. You're just speaking to a body, a body that's about to be left here on the earth and never going to be transcended anywhere else. Like, your body's left here for a reason. Like, speak to their heart, speak to their spirit. That's what's going up with God, you know? So I think it's being more intentional and being disciplined to be intentional.
- [63:39]
B
That's good.
- [63:39]
A
And not following just what you think or, oh, well, this is what helped me. So this is what's going to help other people. No, you got to. I think one of the. The aspects about evangelism that you really tap into is instead of not. Instead of. Additionally, on top of studying your own faith, understanding, the foundational is like, okay, we believe in Jesus, that he is Lord, that. That's controversial within itself. People believe in Jesus, but they don't believe He's Lord. What separates us from. From a Muslim or from a Jehovah Witness is that they don't believe that Jesus is Lord. They believe Jesus is a prophet or that he is a son, that he's human, that he existed. But the moment that you say that He's Lord, that raises eyebrows. That puts people on their toes.
- [64:20]
B
Right?
- [64:21]
A
And that's when you actually. Right, that's when you actually have to stand on business and preach the gospel that you know. So knowing that Jesus is Lord, believing in the Trinity alone, standing on that business, and also preaching it from a place of compassion and knowing how to reach that person's heart. So I think additionally, on knowing the foundational, foundational aspects of your faith, additionally, you also need to know Just as much as what that person believes in, which you emphasize in your book. Whenever it came to you speaking with John the Jehovah Witness, what actually shifted the conversations that you guys had was whenever you sat down and asked for his testimony. And the reason as to why, from what your book showed that he was a Jehovah Witness in the first place wasn't because it was just by accident. It was because the church hurt him and his mom. And from that came from him signing up to something that he's completely loyal to now based off of hurt that he's experienced in the Christian church.
- [65:14]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure. Yeah. Like John. When I first met John, you know, I was just so focused on kind of defeating him and winning the argument, but I didn't, I didn't understand that he was hurt. And so I think the arguments that we had about Jesus being God, I think they were fruitful to a certain extent. But I still didn't get behind the why, right. I knew what he believed, but I didn't know why he believed it. I didn't know what drove him to believe what he believed. Believed. And I think that if we get behind the why, we can deal with the what.
- [65:46]
A
That's good.
- [65:47]
B
You know what I'm saying? So, like, I, I, I understood why. I understood why he hated the, the Christian church, right. Which made him believe in what he believed. Right. So I believe this is what I believe now because of this, what, you know. And so I think a lot of times if we just focus on getting behind the why, then we can actually deal with the what, right? You know, what somebody believes you're reaching the heart.
- [66:08]
A
Heart, absolutely. Again, it comes with intentionality, discernment, and actually seeking that person again, to help their heart, to serve them right.
- [66:17]
B
For sure.
- [66:18]
A
And a lot of times when you lack that empathy, whether if it's, oh, I'm trying to, you know, get puffed up in the spirit and, you know, be theologically correct. I mean, you miss that. You miss the heart. You miss the mission. Like, go and make disciples of all nations. Like, are you making a disciple by doing that into all nations? Not just in the four walls of your church, church, but beyond that. And I think we hear that, and it's almost as if, like, passivity comes in our minds of, like, oh, okay, like, I'm Christian and that's all I need to say. And it's like, no, there's work that needs to be done. Like, faith without works is dead. Works is evidence of the faith that that's already instilled inside of you. And it says also in the word that, that it is a gift from God that He has given to us so that nobody can boast. So, meaning that the faith and the works that I have to, to produce and to show the evidence of my faith, is it even from myself? It's all from the grace and the mercy of God. And I think that's the gospel message, right? Is that Jesus or God sent his one and only son. Exactly what John 3:16 says, to die on the behalf of our sin. Yeah, we should have been pinned up on that cross, but yet he was the one who did it for us because of his everlasting love, grace and mercy for us. And I think what's so beautiful about the Christian faith is that it's the only religion to where. Where your God, where to our God stepped down from glory and bore shame on our behalf so that we can live eternally with Him. It's beautiful.
- [67:39]
B
Yeah. Every religion in the world has found something to work for to please God. Christianity is the only one that says the God who finished the work found me. He finished the work on my behalf and he found me. And I can rest in the finished work of Jesus if I would just turn and accept the free gift of Jesus, you know? So this is the reason why so many other religions, they're working, right? The Muslims that praying five times a day to be accepted by the Lord, the Jehovah's Witnesses, they're knocking on as many as doors to be accepted by the Lord. You know, the lds, they're going on a three year missionary journey to be accepted by the Lord. And it's almost weird. It's almost like, you know, it seems like Christians are being lazy to a lot of religions. It says all you have to do is just turn and accept this gift. And this is like, no, like, like we wasn't good enough. Right. The Bible says that our works are filthy rags. The word works. The word filthy rags, when it's translated into the Greek is scubalon. And it literally means what they used to wipe their butts with.
- [68:39]
A
Oh, man.
- [68:39]
B
Right. And so like, God says not only are your works not good, but they're disgusting to me.
- [68:45]
A
Right.
- [68:45]
B
As it pertains to your righteousness. Like, I just, I only want the works of my son. Yeah, like, to accept, like, like accept his works.
- [68:56]
A
Yeah.
- [68:56]
B
And when you accept what he did for you on the cross, you, you, you like, that's what salvation is. It's literally him taking your sin and giving you his righteousness, I have to adopt it. Righteousness of Jesus, like he gave me, like he's made me righteous. And so I think a lot of times people have to understand that salvation is that it is not working to be being made righteous. It is a location change.
- [69:21]
A
Absolutely.
- [69:22]
B
He took me out of a place of darkness and placed me right into his marvelous light. And so that's what salvation is. That's the beautiful thing about the Gospel. Right? They're not. Now, it's not saying that the Christian shouldn't have works. It's just our works doesn't make us righteous. Christ makes us righteous. And now our works are evidence that we haven't been made righteous. That's the difference.
- [69:42]
A
Right? Right.
- [69:43]
B
So, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [69:45]
A
I think it's a truth of a matter of not fighting for victory, but fighting from victory. And I think it's. I think what you said is so good because I think we try to obtain righteousness on our own and do it in our own strength. When it's the complete opposite, it's again just sitting at the feet of God and saying, I cannot do this on my own. I have to accept your spirit to be in right standing with you and standing in that righteousness. It's just accepting his spirit and walking it out. Because works is just evidence of the righteousness and the faith that you just received. And even what you said is it's a location change. That's what deliverance is. It's. You went from one place to another. That's it.
- [70:21]
B
That's good.
- [70:22]
A
And I think that, yeah, I think that's so good. And I believe that a lot of people would experience the freedom that they're promised in the scriptures if they just knew that the victory that they're searching for is already inside of them.
- [70:35]
B
That's good.
- [70:36]
A
And I think that's something that the Lord has been tugging along on my spirit too. Especially when you're on a platform where you're leading a lot of people and you kind of feel like this temptation to go harder and get better and you know, learn more scripture. Not that that's bad, but doing it for. From a position of self righteousness and I have to earn my way. But then you get reminded immediately of those filthy rags. And God is very adamant about what makes them sick in scripture. 1:1 of the Bible Bible verses. That was a huge emphasis to me whenever I first became Christian. When was Revelation 3:16 where it says, God would rather have us be hot or cold. And if you are lukewarm, he's going to spit you out of your mouth. He's not going to spit out Christians. He's spitting out the lukewarm. And it literally says the, the translation, the correct translation, to spit out means to vomit. It makes him sick, it makes him want to regurgitate. And I think God shows us what disgusts him and he'd rather have us be on fire or coals if you want to, if, if you want to pursue the things of God, if you want to be in right standing. He doesn't th, those filthy rags makes him sick, you know, it disgusts him. It's disgusting.
- [71:41]
B
Yeah. And Jesus was actually using that, a metaphor that they can understand at that particular like, like time. Because what will happen is, you know, they would, they would have, they, they, they would have hot springs that go up north of Jerusalem. And so by the time that the water will reach north of, of like, like the Middle Eastern parts of the country, the water would like, like literally be hot and they would be, be able to bathe in it. They would be able to like wash themselves with it or whatever. So a lot of people, and then south of, of the Middle Eastern countries, they had natural cold springs. And so it was very refreshing. Right. But then when, as it went further, the chemicals inside the underwater pipes in Jerusalem or whatever would literally make the water contaminate it. And so when people would drink it in the poor part of the region, they would literally vomit. And so this is what he means. I want you either hot, warm where it's useful, or cold. Well, it could be refreshing to me, but if you're lukewarm, I can't receive it. That's good, you know, I can't, you know, and so like he, like, he was using like, like context clues and cultural clues that they can understand. So that's, that, that's what Jesus is saying now. Like, if you, if you're lukewarm, you know, not only can I not use you, right. But you're not even delightful to me.
- [73:13]
A
Right.
- [73:13]
B
You have no use. I have no use for you, you know.
- [73:16]
A
Right, yeah, no, that's good. And just kind of like close out, just like a, I guess a application of that. Because I think we could preach all day, but if you don't give an application, it just like misses the mark at times.
- [73:28]
B
I learned that from Philip Mitchell. Yeah, he taught me that. I was like, that was dope.
- [73:32]
A
Yeah, yeah. There definitely has to be an application that's taught after the teaching because I could tell you what it is all day. But if I'M not giving you a blueprint of how to actually walk it out. You're not gonna leave change. So kind of just to sum up just this conversation and to give an application for the people, like say if someone is lukewarm or say if someone is trying to pursue their faith more by, by spreading the gospel, what are, what are very applicable ways to keep chasing the presence of God, not just based off of a feeling, but based off of just faith.
- [74:06]
B
Yeah, I'll say continue to pray and ask him to help you. Like prayer is probably the closest way that we become close to God. He's not just a God in heaven that doesn't hear you. Like, he's a real transcendent being. Right. So talk to him, communicate with him, you know, But I, I, I'll say a local community is so important. Right, right. You like when God saved us, he did not save us to be on the island, he saved us in, he saved us in the compounds of a community. And so being, you know, like committed to a local community where, where you can have brothers and sisters helping you, walking with you, fasting with you, praying with you is so important. Right. If it wasn't for community, I wouldn't be, I wouldn't be a Christian. I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for God's people. God has always used his people to carry out his will.
- [75:05]
A
Absolutely right.
- [75:06]
B
We have the Bible now because of people.
- [75:08]
A
Yes.
- [75:08]
B
And so what makes you think that you can be close to the Lord without people? It just, you know, it doesn't work like that. And so get connected to a local community, pray, seek the Lord. And I think if you do that and read your Bible, learn how to read contextually learn. Biblical literacy is a, is the thing when you learn how to read your Bible and you learn how to read your scriptures and you learn what God requires from you and also how he loves you and how he wants to keep you. I think that just builds up your faith.
- [75:40]
A
Yeah, yeah, that's good. That was a lot of wisdom. So thank you so much.
- [75:44]
B
Well, thank you for having me. It's been a good, good conversation.
- [75:47]
A
Yeah, no, it's been a blessing. I feel highly encouraged and I just know that the people watching this, they're just going to be internally blessed by, by what you shared and everything that was said. And even just this book as a whole, like this book is just so good. And I've literally read this. This isn't just like a, oh no.
- [76:04]
B
I can tell you read it. Like I've Been having a lot of interviews. I could tell when somebody just read the intro, and that's it. And just. You didn't read my book forever.
- [76:11]
A
Right, Right.
- [76:12]
B
But you read it, so I appreciate that.
- [76:13]
A
Yeah. I mean, I. It's mostly because I just love your ministry so much. I mean, the people who watch me and know and have been on my podcast for so long know that I don't have guests on. If I do, it's my boyfriend or it's my close friends. Besides that, I. I don't have.
- [76:28]
B
Well, I'm honored, man.
- [76:29]
A
Thank you. No, this is. This is a blessing because I think what people don't understand that. That watching have been loyal is that, like, your voice has been so prominent of what overflows into safe, not soft. So you being here is an answered prayer, and it makes the most sense. So this book isn't just something like, oh, president here. And I read it because he's coming. It's like, regardless if you came or not, bro. Like, this book was an answer prayer that I had. And so I. I praise God for you. I praise God for this. I praise God for Jesus. I praise God for the Holy Spirit. I praise God for everything. So, yeah, you guys, please support Preston and everything. This is how to tell the truth, how to win hearts, and not just arguments. And, yeah, this is Preston Perry. And then also, if you just want to plug yourself to where people can find you and just keep up with everything that you're doing.
- [77:16]
B
No, for sure. Yeah. So you can follow me on Instagram, Prestonn Perry. You can also find me on Spotify by all the spots where you can, like, listen to podcasts. Me and my wife podcast channel with the Perry. Also, we have a. With the parish YouTube channel where you can look at our podcast on video. And I have an apologetics channel called Apologetics with Preston Perry. You can check me out there as well.
- [77:44]
A
So, yeah, good stuff. Well, your ministry is blessing so many people. It's blessed me. More importantly. So this is Preston Perry, y'all. We thank God for your spirit. We thank God for your obedience, and your wisdom is showing up.
- [77:56]
B
Thank you for having me.
- [77:57]
A
It's been.
- [77:57]
B
It's been an honor.
- [77:58]
A
Yeah, we praise God. So thank you guys for watching another episode. Just been completely blessed. I'm just overfilled with just so much joy. Make sure you just get your hands on this book right here. And also, more importantly, y'all, I'm Emmy the hostess Stasoft. Glad that you guys are listening and tuning in. Just be reminded that you are heard, loved and seen by Christ. Walk in wisdom, walk in your authority. And know that God just loves you so, so dearly and so, so much so. So until next time. Peace, you guys. Bye.