The Pristine Ponzi Scheme with Matt Walsh

Summary

Scam Goddess – "The Pristine Ponzi Scheme with Matt Walsh"

Date: December 24, 2019
Host: Laci Mosley
Guest: Matt Walsh

Episode Overview

This episode of Scam Goddess features comedian and actor Matt Walsh (best known from Veep) as he joins host Laci Mosley to dig into one of history’s most audacious frauds: Bernie Madoff's Ponzi scheme. The conversation bounces between hilarious personal scam stories, the philosophy of “everything is a scam,” the anatomy of financial cons, and a breakdown of the infamous Madoff case. The episode closes with a shoutout to a teen scammer posing as a state senator, demonstrating that the spirit of the grift lives on.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Casino Scams & Gambling Anecdotes

• [01:41] Matt Walsh shares his story about being convinced by a friend he could "never lose" at roulette—but quickly lost $300. Laci and Matt riff on the allure of gambling and how casinos are essentially a socially accepted scam.
  • "Atlantic City is not a fun place to be with no money at, like, late at night, waiting at a bus station." – Matt Walsh [03:00]
• [04:00] Laci explains why house bets (like the "field" in craps) are especially predatory, emphasizing that real players treat their gambling money as already lost.

2. The Allure and Tactics of Scams

• Discussions around the fun and psychology of scams, both large and small.
  • "The key to winning in any casino game is to leave. People start having fun, and that's when you lose your money." – Laci [05:24]
  • On poker skills: Matt candidly admits, "I'm not a good poker player... the only way for me to not lose money is to play hard on great cards." [06:09]

3. Historic Hoodwinks: The Bernie Madoff Ponzi Scheme

Ponzi Structure Explained [18:00]

• Ponzi schemes named after Charles Ponzi, who promised 50% returns in 90 days.
• Laci: "Ponzi schemes are run by a central operator who uses the money from new incoming investors to pay off promised returns to older ones." [19:28]
• Matt seeks clarification on why people kept reinvesting—Laci explains the psychological hook: "If you get in early and divest, you actually could 'win.' But most people double down." [20:41]

Why the Scam Lasted So Long

• Madoff made the scheme seem legitimate with secretive 'investment strategies' and by leveraging his status among elites—attracting high-profile investors like Steven Spielberg and Kevin Bacon. [23:00]
• Laci: "If you're a career scammer, you don't look at your scam as a scam anymore. It's a profession to you." [35:42]
• Matt observes the singular focus scammers need: "It's so woven into the fabric of your life...are any moments where he seemingly was having joy with someone, is he distracted by the [scam]?" [35:29]

Scam Operations & The "Cool Books" Technique [28:18]

• When the SEC made surprise inspections, Madoff’s staff would forge documents hurriedly. To keep the paper from being obviously warm, they’d cool the fresh pages in the fridge before handing them over—"literally cooking the books."
  • "They would put documents in the fridge because...sometimes the SEC would pop up on you...so they would quickly start falsifying documents...then put them in the fridge so they'd cool down before they gave them to the [SEC]." – Laci [28:18]
  • Matt: "Wow, that's smart. So they were up all night cooking the books." [28:38]

The Family & Staff’s Alleged Innocence

• Madoff’s sons claimed they learned about the fraud only when Bernie confessed to them; they then turned him in. Laci and Matt debate the plausibility of their ignorance.
  • Andrew Madoff: "We knew that we couldn't live with this information and not do something about it..." [42:10]
  • Laci: "There's no way in hell that they didn't know..." [41:46]
  • Matt: "I feel like the brother might have known...the kids who, like, grew up when their dad, before he started the NASDAQ...there's no world where he could have kept. Because he obviously fooled the world..." [43:28]

Aftermath & Punishments [50:02–54:40]

• Madoff got 150 years in prison. His family lost fortune and social standing.
• Most of the family escaped prosecution, though they lost assets and faced lawsuits. Both of Madoff's sons died within a few years—one by suicide, one from lymphoma.
• Laci: "Now, they can't even pull up to the yacht club no more. Well, one, the yacht club gone...But even if they walked up to the yacht club, everybody's going to be whispering about them." [55:00]

4. "Everything is a Scam" Philosophy

• Playful critique of institutions, fees, and the law itself as systemic scams.
  • "The Parking Authority is a scam organization. Laws are a scam. You know what I mean? ...You just gonna make me give you money because I put my car somewhere you told me not to." – Laci [35:54–36:16]
• Matt: "Scam implies some criminality or some hoodwinkery where someone is being duped out of something they're not completely aware of..." [36:16]

5. Scammer of the Week: Isaiah Atkins, Fake State Senator [60:20]

• Laci highlights an 18-year-old who impersonated an Ohio state senator, arranging to give paid speeches at high schools with the help of friends posing as aides.
  • "What I love about this is like, you know people don't read. People don't know that much about their politics, especially if we're talking local, you know what I mean? Also, I love that this is a scam with props." – Laci [61:38]
  • Matt (on the aids): "A posse of actors." [61:54]
  • Atkins claimed, after being caught, that his intent was to expose security flaws in schools: "I was duping to prove a point that these kinds of things can happen. They could have easily googled me. And they didn't." [65:20]
• Both Laci and Matt laugh at the chutzpah—and the gullibility of the school system.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Banter

• "I pride myself in people feeling good after I've scammed them. Like, oh, man, that was fun. It's the allure of money, but I had a good time." – Laci [01:34]

• "If you can scam into your 70s and not get caught until your 70s, that's beautiful." – Laci [18:35]

• "Laws are a scam... There were laws that said that I couldn't be in here with you, Matt. Scam, scam." – Laci [37:27]

• "He was about to get in trouble, so they dropped dime on him. But he kept his family and his wife out of it. But they had to have known." – Laci [41:42]

• On spending government-seized money:

  • Matt: "Well, shouldn't the government liquidate that mansion and create a fund for victims?" [57:44]
  • Laci: "I feel like that's not how the government works..." [57:49]

• "I think you really just gotta charge it to the game. Especially the people with lower amounts of money that. Look, I gave Bernie a thousand dollars in 2002, and when I'm gonna get it back. Ma'am, we're not. We're not gonna give you back your money. Let it go." – Laci [59:00]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [00:41] Matt’s Atlantic City gambling scam story
• [04:00–06:30] Laci explains craps and casino philosophy
• [09:36] 'Hot and Fraud' listener fake ID scam story
• [18:12] Introduction to Bernie Madoff case
• [28:18] The “cool books in the fridge” technique
• [35:42] "Everything is a scam" philosophy
• [41:30–45:51] Family & staff complicity in Madoff's scam
• [54:40] The fate of the Madoff family following Bernie’s arrest
• [60:20] Scammer of the Week: Isaiah Atkins, the 18-year-old fake senator

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Tone & Style

The tone is sharp, irreverent, and deeply comedic. Laci’s energetic hosting keeps the tempo high, peppering historical lessons with wisecracks and personal stories, while Matt Walsh’s dry, self-deprecating humor fits the vibe perfectly.

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Episode Takeaways

• Scams rely as much on psychology and status as they do on trickery.
• Even the most sophisticated frauds thrive on everyday human desires—greed, hope, trust.
• From Wall Street to small-town high schools, there’s always someone scheming.
• The line between legitimate business and scam can be disturbingly blurry.
• Humor, as Laci demonstrates, is a powerful tool for exposing fraud and keeping the "con-gregation" entertained and informed.

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Stay schemin’!

Transcript

[A]

Scams C, Robbery and Frauds. Scams C, Robbery and Fraud. Scam Goddess congregation. Welcome to another episode of Scam Goddess. Guys, I'm so excited about our guest today. He is just a comedy giant and I am so excited to have him here. Guys, I have Matt Walsh. You've probably seen him on Veep. You've probably seen him on so many other things. Also, he's one of the creators of the comedy theater that I came out of, ucb. So this man has done a lot for me and he's also just hilarious, and I'm so happy to have him here. Hi, Matt.

[B]

That's a great intro. That's a little shorter next time, but that's a really good intro, honestly.

[A]

Could be longer. Cody, pull up the IMDb. No, let's read every credit.

[B]

Punish someone with their IMDb. It's a pleasure to be here, Scam Goddess. What do I call you on this show? Just so I don't.

[A]

We were talking about names earlier.

[B]

Yeah, I call you a name.

[A]

Yeah, I'm Lacy. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Just Lacy.

[A]

Yeah. The scammers know. I told everyone, like, you should have an alias if you're a scammer. Unfortunately, my alias is, like, super obvious. I feel like if I call myself Scam Goddess, people know what's about to happen.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But I think that's fair. I can still scam you. You think you know what's going to happen, but you're right.

[B]

Like when the medicine show came into town, or like, you knew there was something magic about it, but they. He still would scam people.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Do you know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah. I pride myself in people feeling good after I've scammed them. Like, oh, man, that was fun. It's the allure of money, but I had a good time.

[B]

It's the allure of winning, you know, or like being smarter than the game that suckers people. And I have a Atlantic City story that I, my friend, convinced me you could guaranteed win at roulette. And we brought $300 down, okay. And within three minutes, that money was gone. But our. But heart, but our fool, he convinced me. My buddy Bill, he's like, you just like, bet 20 red. If it's not red, you go 40 that way, you know, because eventually red's going to come up. It's never more likely. Like, you're just doubling down.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So if you bet 20, you lost. Lost 20. Okay. Now to make that up, you bet 40 and say you lose that 40, no big deal. You now pay 60 on the ride and you're eventually going to hit black and win somehow.

[A]

Okay, that sounds.

[B]

That was truly what I was convinced of and how it relates to your show, hopefully, is that I'm a sucker because I thought my friend knew of a thing that would win.

[A]

He, like, tell you that would win

[B]

money in Atlantic City? Yes. Or a friend.

[A]

Come on. I saw George Clooney do this in a movie. Like, what is this? Who is this friend?

[B]

He's an actor. No, we're not really close anymore.

[A]

You left him in Atlantic City. You're like, truly, I don't know what happened to him after Atlantic City.

[B]

No, we had a. We had a. Atlantic City is not a fun place to be with no money at, like, late at night, waiting at a bus station.

[A]

Yeah. You know, that's why they always keep the hoochie clothes at the casinos. When you lose, you might have to go turn some tricks so you can get home.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Go in there and get you a little banana hammock mat. Get out on the block.

[B]

Get out there and work.

[A]

Get on the black mat. Well, you got to earn your way back.

[B]

If I'm doing that, I'm going to like, whatever the Four Seasons is of Atlantic City.

[A]

I like that. You are very.

[B]

I'm not gonna streak myself.

[A]

Exactly. You're not a $20 hub.

[B]

I will pick someone up at a cocktail.

[A]

Yes, exactly.

[B]

I would be a call person.

[A]

They slide the room key over all of that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Class.

[A]

You fucking on. On 100 thread count sheets. 300 thread count sheets. Okay, I get it. As that's where I would get my. My ass away, too. I'm on one today. I'm sorry. Oh, man.

[B]

Get home. Only to get home. The agreement was to get home.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You got. You have no money.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you're trying to get home.

[A]

And you know every night you're trying to get home. Theoretically. Well, every night you go to your home where you house your body. So, you know, technically, I'm always trying to get home. You know, I definitely think that this counts as a scam. I mean, casinos in general are huge scams. Like, the allure is like, you'll go in and you'll win big. I learned from my dad how to gamble at 16, and I only play craps, and I'm really good at playing craps.

[B]

You understand the game.

[A]

Yeah, I understand the game. I understand what bets are really sexy, but really are bad odds. And the house wins a lot. Like, anytime you see anybody who goes in and plays the field, they don't know what the Fuck, they're doing. Field is the worst bet in the house. You will win large amounts, but then you will lose them immediately.

[B]

What does a field bet mean?

[A]

So a field bet means, like, if a number like, 2, 5. No, 2, 3, 12. Craps. So 2 and 12 pay double on the field. A yo. 11. Like, all these numbers, basically, that are kind of low, averaging, like, hitting on the dice. If they hit, they'll pay you double

[B]

if you hit and you ride that bet for one roll.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. And it usually loses, right?

[A]

Ye usually loses. Comes down after every role. But people will play it, and, like, they'll hit a bit when the table's cold because those numbers aren't good. Those aren't numbers that are actual, like, place bets. But when the table's hot, you're just gonna lose all that money again. But the key to, like, winning in any casino game is to leave, like, people start having fun, and that's when you lose your money. And also, don't play with people who look like they really need to win. Like, I go to a casino, I take out money, and then I look at that money, I say, this money's gone. This money's for fun. And then I play with it, and if it's gone, I. You know. But I don't lose. I'll play. I'll win back what I made, then have fun with the rest. And then I played.

[B]

I played open table. Like, I'm not a good poker player, but I played open table in, like, Vegas one weekend or something a night. And I just ended up, like, my style just ended up being, like, grinding it out. Just, like, grinding out. And I probably made, like, 12 bucks over, like, three or four hours.

[A]

But you were having fun. No, I wasn't no fun.

[B]

I wasn't.

[A]

Why were the other poker.

[B]

Because I think it's a game I'm not good at. And the only way for me to not lose money is to play just, like, hard on great cards and then just ride. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, I don't think I'll ever be really good at poker. I can't read the faces. I can't.

[A]

Yeah, you got to be able to scam people and count cards and be lucky and get a good hand.

[B]

Yes. And I can. I. There was a time where I actually enjoyed, like, watching it. A brief time where you watch the first time, like, World Series Poker, and you see guys playing and you see someone with a bullshit hand, and you see that guy just playing it so real or something like that. Like, oh, that's. That's really good. Or just nothing. More than likely, it's nothing. Like, if you're the Unabomber, you have your hood up. You've had the same face the whole time.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But you see someone, like, look up and I don't know that part of it. It was interesting to me.

[A]

I remember watching poker, too, and I thought it was fucking wild that we. What a scam for us to all have a televised event where we just watch people play play cards. Yeah, yeah, we watch you play cards. I mean, that's technically sports. We watch you kick about.

[B]

I know. And now it's video sports. Now people go to arenas to watch people play video sports.

[A]

Yes. Like a huge thing where people are watching other people play video games. I think that is absolutely insane. And I'm trying to get involved.

[B]

My oldest boy was, like, telling me, he's like, it's no different than, like, football. Like, you're watching football on TV and that's on a screen. And I'm like, somehow it is, but.

[A]

Right. I think it is. I think that that's a generational thing that sometimes even bothers me. I went to a Made in America concert and DJ Mustard was there. And DJ Mustard, like, he does the little, like, Mustard on that beat in front of, like, all his beats. And he's pretty popular. And he was doing a set at Made in America. So I go to the set, and I kid you not, he opens his MacBook and the crowd goes wild. People were screaming when this man opened his computer and I looked around and I was like, what the fuck is this? Are you telling me we came over here, I thought he was gonna have some turntables. I thought at least gonna do a little Scritchy Scratchy or something. Like, he really came over here with a laptop. And we about to watch this nigga press play. I can't believe it. I can't believe it. And I love it. I wanna get involved. I'm trying to figure out if people watch me play video games poorly, could that be entertaining because I can't play them?

[B]

Well, if you were entertaining vocally, like, if you were saying funny shit, people would watch you running into the wall.

[A]

I couldn't figure out how to get him from start running into the wall, but for like three hours.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting because a lot of the understanding of culture, they get. They get it through parody, if you know what I mean. There'll be somebody will reference Jaws while they're watching a Minecraft game happen. And they'll be like. I'm like, the shark. They'll make a Shark Jaws joke or something like, dad, what's that Jaws about?

[A]

Oh, wow. Your son doesn't know what Jaws.

[B]

Well, now he does. He was obsessed with sharks for a while.

[A]

That's very funny that now he's like totally into Jaws. We're going to get started with the first segment because this has been real tangential and I love it. Which is hot and fried. So hot and fried. Matt, this is a moment where I talk to the listeners out there, the congregation, about scams. Because I don't my congregation to get scammed by anybody but me. You know what I mean? If it's my scam, please participate. I need that. But anybody else, you know, we try to prevent it.

[B]

Yeah. Take care of each other. Right?

[A]

Exactly. Exactly. This scam comes from my girl Bea. She asked to be called B. And I understand because when you're doing fraud, you know, you don't need your government name out there. But B says, hi, Lacey, I have an old scam for you. When I was in high school about eight or nine years ago, I decided I needed a fake id. Not sure how to go about it. I asked one of the rich girls in my grade, one of only people who I knew had one, and how she got hers. And she told me about a website called Fake id. Com, which is pretty obvious. Yeah, you would think like a government official or somebody would look that up and be like, huh, maybe we should look into Fake id. Com. Sounds suspicious. Yeah, but I love that the name is so obvious, you know, you gotta be able to find.

[B]

That's how you find it. They probably have good lawyers. They're like, come at us, right? What are we doing illegally?

[A]

Yeah. What are you talking about? Yeah, we call our website fake ID, but that is mean. We're making fake IDs. Yeah, we. We make music. Like what? Like, what do they do? They're like, we make affordable trash bags.

[B]

Yeah. We reclaim medical waste.

[A]

These are all great friends. So I was so surprised that they used this website to order IDs, but my dumb ass was like, okay, these are her words. After looking up the website. The deal was two fake IDs for $200. And if you ordered 10 or more, it was 180 for both. All we had to do was send over a Word document with our desired ID information, take an ID photo with a plain background, and wire the money using Western Union to Hong Kong. Easy, right? So being a very broke high schooler, I was Like, I need that discount. So I have to find nine other people to join me. Naturally, my best friend was in, and it was actually surprisingly easy to find nine other people to join. So we officially had to order of 11 fake IDs at $180 each. So they wired 1980 to someone in Hong Kong. They were told it would take one to two months for it to arrive. After two months, I was concerned that they were not going to arrive. We all realized we were out of luck and lost 180 each, and there was nothing that we could do about it. A couple weeks later, they said, oh, I guess we couldn't call the police and be like, we were swindled out of buying our fake IDs. That's the thing about doing crime is, like, there's no protections like there are

[B]

for, you know, criminality.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. For legitimate things. You can't be like, hey, this guy didn't mail me my acid on the Dark Web.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But I wonder if you could call your bank, though. I feel like you could call your bank. Your bank don't gotta know that you was doing crime. Right.

[B]

Well, if it's a Western.

[A]

So you would go, oh, well, they wired it right. Right. See, that's the real money.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. That's Western Union is like, real money. Right?

[A]

Yeah. And we've talked a lot about the show and how wire transfers are basically one of just, like, the fundamentals of scamming. Because it's instant money, you can't get it back, and there's no recompense. And that's how you want your money when you're a scammer.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So a couple weeks later, she said that her friend texted her and the IDs actually came, and they were real fake IDs. And she said they worked for a long time. And then other kids who decided not to get in on this scheme with her, they immediately were jealous and went out and spent, like $4,000 getting these same fake IDs. Unfortunately, fakeid.com was hacked, and so all the money was rerouted to someone who was not making any IDs. So then the scam no longer worked. I had a fake id.

[B]

Wow, that's a fascinating story.

[A]

I ordered a fake ID online, So I used fakeids.com. yeah, I did. It was a Pennsylvania ID because I went to school in Pittsburgh and it only worked for one night because.

[B]

What do you mean?

[A]

Because somebody. I guess we all.

[B]

They gave you one that had one day till expiration.

[A]

I had one night. I'm out in the town with it expires.

[B]

You want it or not?

[A]

They said I had to go back to the dmv. I said, I can't.

[B]

That's a good premise for a movie. You can drink like you're 21, but only for one night, go.

[A]

Then your ID expires. I think that's actually a movie that's going to be coming out.

[B]

Is it?

[A]

Yeah. I read a script that sounds just like that, but I think it was because a bunch of us ordered them at the same time, like kind of in this fashion. I think there was a discount if you bought a bunch of them, you know, if you buy your.

[B]

In bulk.

[A]

In bulk, which is how I like to buy my fake government documents. And. Well, so I did have two of them. The first one got taken the second night that I tried to go out with it because every. Because they scanned. That was a big deal.

[B]

Like, you wanted to ask you what year this was.

[A]

This was a 19. Definitely 19. It was 2011.

[B]

So these people, you gave them information to make a fake id, right?

[A]

I did.

[B]

And none of your accounts, like, you didn't get your identity stolen as a result?

[A]

No, because I didn't give them anything real. I.

[B]

Nothing was real.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Because you don't like. They make up your driver's license number. You don't need to give them anything other than the address you want it

[B]

to go to a credit card number.

[A]

I'm trying to remember how we paid. I didn't pay. That's what it was. I just took the photo. And then somebody else had arranged to order the IDs and I sent my money via whatever app we were using at the time. I think we were just. I think it was back then we just got cash out of the atm. It was a crazy time.

[B]

Well, it's. It's interesting to bundle. To bundle. Anything like that. Like, to bundle. To bundle fake IDs and then move them that way.

[A]

Honestly, it's the capitalist way and I appreciate it. It was.

[B]

I had a guy. I had a guy I worked with at a restaurant.

[A]

He.

[B]

I saw him like eight years later and he was. I'm like, what are you doing? He's like, oh, I'm moving. I bundle car loans and then I move them to other institutions, financial institutions.

[A]

That sounds like a scam.

[B]

That was his living. It might be a scam. That loan consolidation, it's eventually going to deflate. You're right. In value. You're right. Maybe it is like a. I guess so if you bundle Subprime mortgages. You're a scam artist.

[A]

Right. Because these are also depreciating values. So, like. Yeah, I mean, look, we all knew that that's how the housing market. Woo. But.

[B]

But they're all. With each individual contract is legitimate paper. Like, they're not buying like cocaine.

[A]

Right, Right. They're buying like they might be. It's a possibility. I will say though, like, we all got found out because some. There was like a. Like a construction error. What's the word I'm looking for? Like a default or something in all of the cards. And it was the same on every id. They all, like, were missing some specific thing or they were flashing this blue light on it. And because we all bought these in bulk, we all had the same kind of mouth.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I got it snatched from me the second time. Then I had to just start using a friend's ID who looked like me. Actually, we didn't look alike. She had like a bigger nostrils. So when I would use her id, I would show up to the club and I flare my nostrils out like this. I'd be like, hello. And I would just hold my nose out like this. It worked every time.

[B]

Well, you also have an attitude when you make that face. Like, can we finish this?

[A]

Right? I'm old. Why was my mom like, oh, you need a fake id, you can use mine. I was like, mom, you were 20 years older than me or 21 years older than me. Where am I gonna go talk about. I'm 49.

[B]

Like.

[A]

Like, sis.

[B]

She was gonna give it up, though. When you were 19?

[A]

When I was 20, yeah.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

Right? Isn't that crazy?

[B]

That's a cool mom, I think.

[A]

I didn't drink in high school. Like, I didn't get to go anywhere. So I think in college she was

[B]

like, you can go drink up your heels.

[A]

Yeah, Yeah, a little bit. The first time I ever got drunk was with my parents. I once got so drunk with my mom that I woke up in bed with my parents. It's not how it sounds. It's just like I woke up in the corner of the bed and was like, what the fuck happened? Hammered, hammered, hammered. And I was like, this is not okay. And my mom was like, I was trying to give you a cool compress, but you were being very mean to me. Shalom can drink me under a table.

[B]

Oh, that's funny.

[A]

Oh, gosh. Scams, cunts. Y' all know it's time for my favorite segment of this show, his historic hoodwinks. This is where I regale your boy Matt Walsh with a historic hoodwink. We just get his commentary, opinions, and feelings along the way. So today, guys, this is a super popular one that I know you all know about. A king. Incarcerated king. Mr. Bernard Lawrence Madoff. AKA Bernie Madoff. AKA Bernie MadOff. With all your money.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yes. He's an American financier. I'm going to put that in quotes. Financier, who executed the largest Ponzi scheme in history, defrauding thousands of investors out of tens of billions of dollars over the course of 17 years and possibly longer, and I would think longer. Career scammer. If you can scam into your 70s and not get caught until your 70s, that's beautiful.

[B]

Yeah. That person has game. You're right.

[A]

I don't understand why they weren't giving him a lifetime achievement award. Yeah, I'm sorry. If you get that far, like, we're all D. And you deserve the world. I'm not mad at it, so. But, you know, you're scamming rich people, so they are definitely going to get you back. I'm just gonna tell you guys out there how Ponzi schemes work, just so we're all on the same page. So the name originated with Charles Ponzi, who promised 50 returns on investments in only 90 days. I feel like 90 days is such a great scammer amount of time. Like, if you get on any. If you're up late at night and you see any commercial for anything, they'd be like, oh, it's only three installments of 49.9. You know what I mean? Like, 90 days is just enough time where you'll pay something consistently before you start feeling, like, robbed. You know what I mean? Like, 90 days. I give you my money, I'd be like, okay, I'm gonna get it back in three months. Okay, that's. That seems acceptable. Four months, though. No, no, I'm angry. I want my money back. So Ponzi schemes are run by a central operator who uses the money from new incoming investors to pay off promised returns to older ones. So basically, you take money from people and you say, in 90 days, it's about to be lit. You about to have. I'm a double your coin. Right. But you have to keep doing this because technically, you're just taking money from other people and then giving it to other people, and then you skim a little off the top for yourself. So to avoid having too many investors reclaiming their profits, Ponzi schemes encourage them to stay in the game, to Earn even more money. So it's like, oh, you thought these three months was lit. You wait until you try 10 years. So investing strategies are vague.

[B]

And so can I ask a question? So nobody walks away after the first. Like, if you have a Ponzi guy and he says, give me 5 million and in six months you'll have 10 million, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He does that once to you, Right. He makes you believe it's going to work. And that's where the addiction is. That how it works. So after 10, I could have literally. Or they. One could find another person to invest their money with.

[A]

Right. So if you get it on a Ponzi scheme early and you actually get the returns on your investment and decide to de. Invest then, or divest, rather, then you actually would win on that scam. But the whole point is, is that he gives you back half of what you invested as a profit, and then he still has the money that you invested technically in your brain, but really he just gave you half your money back, right?

[B]

Yeah, it's an. It's an inch. Because you're seeing, like, if I give you 5 million and you say, aren't they more likely to say, okay, but you got to be in for a couple years, they might show you a profit at six months. They might show your bank account and say, look, check your bank account today. There's 10 million.

[A]

Yes. They're falsified.

[B]

That's no. Or. Or the money was real. Do you know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then they take it. But now there's another thing. If you give me that 10 now, we're going to turn it into 20. So then he takes your whatever, maybe get you in for another five more there.

[A]

Yeah, no, it's exactly how it works. So it's like, okay, and then when he's getting other people to invest, he's just taking that money. Like, let's say you want to divest a little bit or you want to see some of your returns and you want to actually take some of your returns, he will take the money that he just got from somebody else and give it to you.

[B]

Right?

[A]

So there was never.

[B]

There's diminishing resources. And yeah, if I'm a member, it's not like an Amway scam in that. Now my job is to recruit other people into the Ponzi. Right. There's usually only one Ponzi, one person at the center of a Ponzi. Right.

[A]

And investing strategies are vague or secretive, which schemers claim is to protect their business. So if you have these investing strategies that are making millions. You don't have to tell anybody what they are, because the natural assumption is that if you shared it, other people would do it, and then it would become less valuable. And even though these people aren't now working for the scam, it's not like herbalife, where now you're like, oh, come on, y' all invest in Verdi Ma. But you know how money is. You know how rich people are. Like, you know, you got some coins. Bad. Bad. Got some coins, honey. So, you know, when y' all be at the meetings and. And at the functions and, you know, the illuminati meetings, and they'd be like, oh, you know, I just made, like, a. A 50% return on an investment in 90 days. You are kind of doing the work for him because you're a rich person telling other rich people how they can get rich, which he has celebrities involved,

[B]

but you're not profiting. Like, if I bring three of my friends into the Ponzi, I don't see any more money.

[A]

Absolutely not. But that doesn't matter, because that's, like, a status thing. Like, people are doing that for stats because, like, Kyra Sedgwick was giving him coin. Kevin Bacon was giving him coins. I said, damn, Kevin Bacon. We all six degrees away from Kevin Bacon. And a scam, honey. And New York mets owner was giving him coins. Fred Wilpon. So, like, oh, Steven Spielberg. Come on, now. You know, like, these are prominent names. Like, you know, you go into the black tie events, and Steven talking about, yeah, I'm Bernie.

[B]

Just

[A]

listen. I'm invest. Steve Silver made the color purple. Like, who are we giving our money to?

[B]

I feel bad for anyone, though, who got lost their, like, money.

[A]

You do?

[B]

If they're. If they're zeroed out or something? Yeah, I do. I. Because nobody. I don't know, even I feel bad for rich people. Not for. Not for rich people.

[A]

Wow. I feel bad for rich people.

[B]

There's the full quote. There's a pilot.

[A]

That's the full quote of this entire show. Mad Walsh feels bad for rich people.

[B]

If you're a 10 millionaire. Say you're a 10 millionaire and Bernie Madoff took all your money, and that was, like, your retirement for you and your wife, and now you got nothing.

[A]

But why would you give him $10 million? That's like. That's too much.

[B]

I think you get suckered in. I think you get suckered in. Maybe you go in for a million at first, and you're like, here's a million Next year. Let me show you the returns. After year one, do you want to come in for two? And then you're a dad.

[A]

Did you get taken by Bernie Madoff?

[B]

I didn't.

[A]

Is this your story?

[B]

No.

[A]

I don't know, Matt. It's starting to sound very specific. He's like, I mean, what if you're a guy, you know, I'm doing an average named Matt. You know, what if. What if, you know, in between shooting Veep, you were like, I want to double my millions. And then you meet Bernie at Oscar party, and then Steven Spielberg says that he's a cool guy.

[B]

So I am unfortunately easy prey for, like, a scam person.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I don't understand. No, I have, like, someone who helps me plan, you know, so I don't lose all the money or whatever. Like, I'm not good at money.

[A]

But do you watch that person?

[B]

I trust that person. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

I trust nobody.

[B]

Yeah, well, you're smart too. You're smart.

[A]

I mean, as long as you're, like, overseeing. My mom was always like, you're never big enough to not sign your own checks. And I was like, okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Sometimes I do let people deposit checks into my bank account, though, so I should probably look at those.

[B]

But think of the time you free from your life by not like, monitoring like, every single.

[A]

Yeah, but then sometimes you get Rihanna. Rihanna's money manager was managing her money poorly. And by managing, I mean, she was managing to steal a lot of it.

[B]

Really.

[A]

Yeah. Stole a lot of her money. Like, almost bankrupted her.

[B]

Yeah. Grandpa doesn't know these things. Sorry, I apologize to your fans.

[A]

Right. No, but, yeah. So Bernie Madoff did this whole Ponzi scheme, and he did it for at least 17 years, possibly longer. So he was born April 29 in 1938 in Queens, New York. New York is such a beautiful place for scams. I would call New York, like, specifically Brooklyn, the Silicon Valley of scamming. Like, that's where all the innovation happens.

[B]

That's where the newest immigrant class to sort of. Yeah, scam knowledge is coming out in the old world.

[A]

And I love an old world scam. I love an old world wine and I love an old world scam. Yeah, an old fashioned grift still gets me. So he used $5,000 he earned from lifeguarding and installing sprinkler systems to found his investment company. This man is a genius. Madoff borrowed an additional $50,000 from his in laws, which, like yalls in laws just be having $50,000. Like, I never borrowed $50,000. Like, you know what I mean? Privilege. And. Oh, and this is his in law. So he also means he married a woman with a bag. Like, who knows? He might have married his wife. Like, oh, you. Your family got some coin. Okay, we go, we gonna get married. Because obviously, Bernie's family ain't have no coin. He was installing sprinkler systems and lifeguarding, so he had to marry up. So he married him with a real baddie. And he and Ruth founded an investment firm called Bernard L. Madoff Investment securities, llc. Where is Ruth's name in this? She didn't brought all the money into this. And it's literally called Bernard L. Like, where my name at? It should be Ruth and Bernard. Bernard and Ruth.

[B]

Right. If that was a cancer center, it would be Ruth and Bernard.

[A]

Right. It should be Bernard and Ruth's Money, llc. Like, I want to be involved. So by the end of the 1980s, his firm was handling more than 5% of the trade volume in the New York Stock Exchange, which is huge.

[B]

That's banana.

[A]

That's insane.

[B]

That's bananas. Five percent for one. One firm. That's crazy.

[A]

Yeah. So he had gotten his hands in everybody's pocket, and this is like the 1980s. So he's probably, like, in his 40s at this point. Yeah. So Bernie employed his brother Peter. He employed his daughter Shayna Madoff and his sons Andrew and Mark. When Bernie Madoff started, basically, he was flying under the radar because he was falsifying SEC reports. And this is something that I thought was very funny and how he false, like, falsifies documents. So they would put documents in the fridge because sometimes. Sometimes the SEC would pop up on you. Like, they just pull up like. Like the health inspectors. Like, hey, y', all, we here. Let us see them docs. You know what I mean? Like, bust them docs out.

[B]

They can just do that surprise audit.

[A]

Surprise. Let me get them docs.

[B]

Got it.

[A]

So they would pull up and surprise. And they would quickly start falsifying documents. And because they were printing them out fresh, they would be warm. So they would put them in the fridge so that they would cool down before they gave them to the FCC or whatever.

[B]

Yeah. Wow, that's smart. So they were up all night cooking the books.

[A]

Literally.

[B]

Literally cooking the books.

[A]

And then they had to cool the books down.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Because they were hot.

[B]

And that's back when the books were on paper.

[A]

Now the books are not exactly now they're so digital, so you can't really do that. But back when you literally Were cooking books, the books would be too hot. Hot to the church.

[B]

Somebody told me there was a story about these soldiers knew in Israel, they knew when the British guys were coming, because they'd say, let us know when you're coming. Cause we'll have the beer cold. But they were like making bullets in the basement of the place that they.

[A]

Yeah, y' all wait till we had a beer nice and cold for you. Y' all want some burgers? Y' all want pretzels? We know y' all love pretzels.

[B]

Just tell us, so you're coming by Friday. Got it. Beer will be cold, tight.

[A]

Thank you. And bullets will be hot. Yeah, that's very funny how you can, like, bait people like that. But this apparently worked. Like, they would just be refrigerating the books and they'd come out. I'm like, aren't the books cold then? Are they too cold? They're like, we keep it cold in our office. No women work here. You know, men love cold offices. That's the patriarchy cold comedy rooms, too, right? So he started his own market maker firm in 1960 and helped launch Nasdaq Stark Market, which feels like a. A conflict of interest. Like, how can you help someone launch the NASDAQ when you're, like, holding 5% of the share? Okay. So he sat on the board of the national association of Security Dealers and advised the Security and Exchange Commission on trading securities. So the scammer was advising the organization.

[B]

Was he now already scamming?

[A]

Oh, he had been scamming.

[B]

He's been scamming the whole way in.

[A]

Yes. So this is, like later in his career. This is like when he's.

[B]

How many years into scamming is he at this point, would you guess, being crooked, let's say.

[A]

Honestly, I think he was crooked from the time he started installing those water sprinklers. I bet you Bernie can't swim. And he was a lifeguard that just never got in the water. He probably just putting a little sunscreen on his nose. I bet you never saved your life. And I bet you that whoever got their sprinkler systems installed by Bernie, that

[B]

grass died or they were burned in a fire. And those sprinklers were supposed to put

[A]

out that fire, right? Oh, Lord Jesus. Then it's like, this is us, Bernie Madoff edition. The smoke alarm didn't go off. Bernie didn't install the sprinklers right. Then the dad died. I love that show. That show is a scam. I've never seen somebody scam A death harder than this is us.

[B]

I don't watch that one. I'm sorry.

[A]

Oh, okay. So I don't watch.

[B]

It's very emotional, right? Yeah.

[A]

And I'm like, who wants to cry every Tuesday at 9? Like, this is too much.

[B]

It is a lot, right?

[A]

Like, I can't have a scheduled cry every week. But the scam is on. That show is like, the dad dies and that's like something that is not a spoiler. But how the scam works is the dad is like a series regular on the show. Like, the dad works every night on the damn show. Because they do all these flashbacks and the flashbacks be like, oh, man, here are some clothes from the dad dying that we gotta take home from the police department. So sad. The next episode is like, it's my birthday but my daddy dead. They use the death in like every sad moment of a death, which is real in real life. Like, it's not ever just the funeral. It's always like little tiny moments afterwards. But I've never seen somebody milk a death so hard. They'd be like, that's the smoke detector that didn't go off and that's why the dad died. Like, zoom in on it and that'll

[B]

go throughout how many seasons now?

[A]

It's been years. Couple seasons of just that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it works every single time.

[B]

Has a dad appeared in flashback? Oh, hell yeah.

[A]

Hell yeah. He all over them flashbacks and like, sometimes the dad be dead and it be like they sneak attack you with it. Like they go into the grocery store and it's like, the dad loved this meat. You gotta get sad again. I'm like, damn. So I personally don't watch this with us, but the episodes that I have seen, I was like, this is too much. How y' all gonna milk a death for 10 seasons? You know what I mean? That's a lot. They haven't killed anybody else that I know of. No. Maybe they killed the other dad now. Fresh dad, new dad to be sad about. I don't watch the show. People are gonna really kick my ass. Opinions about things that I don't.

[B]

You're getting trouble.

[A]

Now listen, if y' all are looking for me, this is us. I would love to be on your sad show. Robbery and fraud. So Madoff claimed to use the investment strategy called split strike conversion, which is an actual trading strategy. But instead he simply deposited clients funds into a single Chase bank account that he used to pay existed clients who wanted to cash out. So this is what we talked about when we explained Ponzi stuff. So federal prosecutors said Chase should have known it would being used to commit fraud. And they charged the bank with two felony counts for failing to maintain adequate controls. Do you think Chase knew and just was like, there's billions of dollars in our bank. Like, who gives a fuck?

[B]

I was more going to. Why are you. That's like you're, you're constantly, you constantly need new income to keep the secret it from getting out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So you're constantly hustling and raising more capital to give to people because you're also building this lifestyle.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I'm sure you had tons of opulence, real estate and.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I don't know.

[A]

You're tired just thinking about doing the scam.

[B]

Yeah. Kind of like when you're a career

[A]

scammer, this is your profession. So staying ahead of your scam is your full time job. You know what I mean? You gotta have lots of refrigerators for cooling. Papers gotta have.

[B]

Right, Right. Like he didn't deliver the newspapers. When he had the paper out, he would just dump them in the empty lot.

[A]

Oh for sure.

[B]

He would never throw them out.

[A]

No one was getting the newspaper. Absolutely not. So he's having to struggle to keep up with the scam. And I think that that's an amazing profession. Like your whole job is just staying ahead lies and schemes. The only thing that's bad is the stress that comes with that because if you lose your job, you can just go get another job. You know what I mean? But like if your scam falls part you going to jail. So that's like a lot of pressure. That's. But I feel like that's also the pressure that CEOs feel.

[B]

But I don't think they. I don't think he thinks about jail, has no fear. Like to him it's only about raising capital to keep the lie quiet. And it's bananas. I don't know, like seems like singular focus. Like because it's such. It's so woven into the fabric of your life. Like are any moments where he seemingly was having joy with someone, is he distracted by the.

[A]

I think you're getting high on it. I think that part of this reason scams are so fun is because it is.

[B]

You're pulling it off.

[A]

Yeah. And so I think that he's probably having the time of his life.

[B]

Thank you for explaining this stuff. This is helpful. I really understand.

[A]

And also I feel like when you're a career scammer, you don't look at your scam as a scam anymore. It's a profession to you? Because truly everything is a.

[B]

So you hold it with you. You hold it with respect. Almost like, this is what I do.

[A]

Like the Parking Authority is a scam organization. Like, you just gonna make me give you money because I put my car somewhere you told me not to. Like, that's a scam. That's not a real organization. You know what I mean?

[B]

And so that is a real. But that is a real organization.

[A]

Yeah, because we said so. We could stop saying so, and then it no longer would be.

[B]

But then everything's a scam, right?

[A]

Yes, everything is a scam. So that's.

[B]

No, but scam implies the word. My connotation for the word scam implies some criminality or some hoodwinkery where someone is being duped out of something that they're not completely aware of. Like, you can get a. If you give someone a shitty loan, that's a scam. Scamming them. But, like, if I give you a loan that's like 2%, let's say it's 2%, that's not great. But it's sort of what the real market is, and you sort of are able to pay it. I'm not in the business, even though I respect the concept of money and digital transfers. Like, that's a scam. But, like, in that context, isn't that like a real thing and not a scam? Nah, it's a scam.

[A]

Cause think about it. I give $93 to the parking authority. Where does that $93 go? I don't know. I still got potholes.

[B]

Well, the money probably goes. The money probably goes to some city

[A]

account, but we don't know. And truly, we don't know what they're doing with it. But because it's a scam, you give the DMV 400 every year for what? To verify your plates that were already verified. What they doing with that money? Making more of those little paper things that you pull out with the numbers on them. It's all a scam.

[B]

Stickers.

[A]

Yep. So I just think that that certain scams, we've all accepted our rules. Laws are a scam. You know what I mean? Like, there were laws that said that I couldn't be in here with you, Matt. Scam, scam. Laws. Laws locked up a lot of black people for smelling weed. And now we got weed, Apple Stores. So it's like, I understand that you could feel like what you're doing is actually legitimate and also maybe helping people, because technically what he's doing is Just like, if you need some money, I took some money from over here and I gave it to you. If you need some money, I did the same. The only issue was, is that in 2000, the housing market plummeted, and that affected everybody.

[B]

And then everybody needed their money, and Bernie never had the money.

[A]

So really, it's George Bush's fault that Bernie Sanders went to jail.

[B]

Bernie Sanders.

[A]

Bernie Sanders.

[B]

They look alike. Come on. Old white men.

[A]

Old white man named Bernie. Bernie Madoff went to jail. Technically, really Bill Clinton's fault, because Bill Clinton is who deregulated the banking industry, and that's how we got here with this whole thing. Anyway, so getting caught, Bernie employed his brother Peter, Peter's daughter Shayna Manoff, and his two sons, Eric and Mark, which I talked about earlier. So he kept it in the family. He kept it close because, you know, basically, Bernie probably got, like, the Trump.

[B]

Like, Trump's criminality. He keeps it in the family.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's all his travels with his circus of criminals.

[A]

And we should always know that you're looking at a scammer when they're surrounded by their family, because those are people that they have once, like, spat out and made and manipulated for their entire life. So those are the people that they can trust, the most good soldiers. I feel like Bernie was probably running, like, the white Empire, like, every day. Like, his family was having drama and, like, oh, who's going to steal the company? Like, that's what I love about the show Empire is that they have no research assistance, so they had to keep everything very vague and just say the company, because they. They don't have any actual, like, insight into what happens in business. So they're just like, I see Fred out back. He was trying to steal the company. Him and Tim went to dinner last night. I think they were talking about the company. I love it. It's so vague. So I feel like Bernie's family, there probably was so much drama and so many things I want to know about. I'm sure that there's a movie there.

[B]

I caught some of the Robert De Niro portrayal of him on the. I think they did, like, a miniseries of Bernie Madoff and the way he was playing him, I only saw the, like, one of the episodes. It's a couple. But he was playing him sort of like this guy who was organizing his son's wedding and, like, freaking out about the china and barking at the help. But that was, like, one piece of the story that I happened to look into. So I guess if you're super wealthy and like you get to be live like a king, then you get to be an asshole about your, your collections of things, your cars, your homes, your, your spas, your vacations, your hotel rooms. Like, I bet they take great delight in like on people. Oh, I'm sure that don't give them exactly what they want.

[A]

Right. And also being rich is I'm sure very exhausting because living opulently is a lot of work. You know, I mean you can't just call an Uber. You have to have your car service and like you have to hire people to maintain your rich people richness. So Bernie confessed to his sons who work at his firm that he and they claim they were not aware of the scheme. They said he confessed. Hey guys, I've been running a Ponzi scheme. He was like, mark, Andrew, get in here. Hey guys, I've been running a Ponzi scheme. And they were like, what? All this money that came out of nowhere, not legitimate. This is what they claim. So Andrew turns his father in the next day. Which I was like, what? Like you drop dime on your daddy? I'm so.

[B]

Well that makes me think that it's real, that, that, that their awareness or at least that would make me think that. Oh my God. That is an argument for it probably was dropped the day before.

[A]

Like sounds made up to me.

[B]

It does.

[A]

Like, first of all, there's no way in hell that they didn't know that their dad was doing crime. They were too close to the crimes. They definitely knew that this was a crime. I feel like he was about to get in trouble. So they dropped dime on him. But he kept his family and his wife out of it. But they had to have known there's a link of Andrew Madoff talking about turning his father in.

[B]

We knew that we couldn't live with this information and not do something about it. And we knew we needed to speak to an attorney and we knew that that was going to lead to us turning him in, but we didn't know how to do that. You know, knowing the right thing to do and then knowing how to do it are two totally different things. And we needed help. You so think he's lying his head off?

[A]

Absolutely. First of all, what you mean you don't know how to snitch?

[B]

I feel like a goody two shoes or something. I kind of believe that guy.

[A]

Oh, I don't believe that guy at all. First of all. Well, snitching is easy. Look at Tekashi. He's snitching on people that he, like, we didn't even ask for. He's snitching on everybody. He's like, also, somebody double parked outside, so let me give you the license plate. Like, he snitched on everybody. Snitching is easy. You just go down to the police house. That's what I call it.

[B]

The precinct.

[A]

Yeah, you go down to the police house, the precinct, as you call it, that police house works, and you drop dime on your dad. Like, it's very easy. I think that they went to a lawyer because they were like, we are heavily implicated in this. And how do we snitch?

[B]

In a way, they were advised by their lawyer.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

We didn't know how to do this.

[A]

Also, it was gonna come out because after the market collapsed, people wanted their money. And when people ask for their money and you say, I don't have it, people are gonna start looking like, probably a crime. So.

[B]

So there's no. So just let me just. Sorry to interrupt you, but there's no world where you believe that these kids who are inside the business and the brother, like, I feel like the brother might have known, but I feel like the kids who, like, grew up when their dad, before he started the nasdaq and like, they weren't even in the business yet. There's no world where he could have kept. Because he obviously fooled the world. His father was fooling the world for 17 years that we know of. Of the. The insanity that was built upon, you know, imminent collapse at any given moment. There's no world where those kids, certainly in this moment especially, could be truthfully saying, like, we didn't know that it was this deep, that it was this huge.

[A]

Absolutely not. Absolutely not. They're too close to it. You don't work for a company and not know that the company is a scam. You just don't. Like, I worked for so many companies.

[B]

Yeah, you're probably right. It's financials too. You're right.

[A]

Yeah. And I figured out scams at every company I've worked at. I used to. Man, I used to wait tables and I learned the manager's codes, and then I would just do all the manager's job for them because they'd be drunk and coked out. This was in Hamptons. So I became the manager, and I could have literally been stealing money. I wasn't, because I'm not a thief, but I had all the codes. Like, if there's a scam to be had, people will figure it out.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's just human nature. Like, if Something is weird or flawed, you're kind of like, this isn't adding up. Like they definitely know. Do definitely. I would put money on it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think that that's why they went to talk to lawyers beforehand, because they had to figure out what was going to be like, what they should actually say and what they shouldn't say.

[B]

Well, they're rich people too. They're always going to bring a lawyer with them at this point in their lives.

[A]

Right, Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I think the reason that Bernie Madoff had them drop dime on him is because he wanted to absolve his family from any guilt. He probably didn't want to take down his family with him. So he had them all pretend that they didn't know, but they knew. So we knew we couldn't live with this information and not do something about it. That's what Andrew Madoff said. And poor Andrew, he died of lymphoma. And I find like stress, like, you know how like Everybody in the O.J. case like, died of like cancer. It's like, you know what I mean? When you be real stressed out, evil

[B]

manifests itself and stress about evil gives you cancer.

[A]

Well, I think you have to be somebody who cares to stress.

[B]

You know what I mean? Like conflicted guilt.

[A]

Live forever.

[B]

Because he has no guilt. He has no guilt.

[A]

Yes. So I think you have to, if you have guilt or stress like that, you know, manifests. So it says that's, that's what Andrew Madoff said of Bernard Madoff when he was talking about his decision to go to the FBI. You know, he couldn't live with it anymore. He admitted to investigators that he had lost $50 billion of his investments or his investors money. Bernie Madoff has always claimed he acted alone, but federal prosecutors thought that that couldn't possibly be true. And so did I. Doing so would require testimony from a true insider. Frank De Pascali fit the bill perfectly. So Frank De Pascal, Madoff's chief financial officer and right hand man. So this man definitely knew about the scandals. He pleaded guilty to 10 felony counts in 2009 and proceeded to sing like a canary. DePasqual told stories including he was basically like the white collar Tekashi 69. He told him that he they would produce stacks of false records for SEC examiners. And then he told them that put

[B]

them in the cold.

[A]

Told him about the refrigerated trick, which I think is an excellent trick. I don't know if we had to start reviewing that.

[B]

Yeah, that's like counterfeit, like counterfeiters Prob, if you gotta use the money fast, you gotta cool it off.

[A]

Cool it real quick.

[B]

Print that money and cool it off. We need to use it today.

[A]

Right. He also was like, why are these bills hot? It was real hot in my car. He also recounted how he and the other officers tossed the stack around the office like a football to make it appear to be worn. So they would take the books and throw them back and forth at each other. Like, yeah, yeah, these are real old books. I'm like, well, did you put it in the oven? Try to make it turn brown a little bit? Like how old books supposed to look by the time you get them, they're like, look like they were written in the 1960s or not even. Like, I don't know. This is insane. So they would throw this around the office like a football. But dabascally faced up to 125 years in prison for his own crimes. But he died of lung cancer in 2015, four months before his schedule sentencing.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I think that's a great way to go out. You know what I mean? You die before you go to jail.

[B]

He got lucky.

[A]

He never went to.

[B]

That's the only thing good about his dying. Yeah. He didn't have to go to jail.

[A]

Right. Wow. Also, it's insane that he was going to face 125 years for stealing people's money. That feels excessive.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's too long. Like money stealing, now murder. But I know people are murdering people who are getting way less time. That's crazy.

[B]

Yeah. These kids totally knew.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They were probably throwing up. Because if you see like the office,

[B]

you see your chief financial officer hucking back and forth a big old library sized accounting register for the year. You're like, what, what, what do we do here?

[A]

What is Fred doing? Why do we have to throw the books around before the.

[B]

Why do we put the annual reports in the refrigerator?

[A]

Yo, who took my beef stroganoff out the fridge? The fridge is just full of paperwork now, man. It's expensive. Y' all had fish. I know y' all don't like when I heat up the fish in the office, but damn. Like, there's no way you walk around this office and people are doing this shit. Crazy. I watched the Wolf of WA street and I thought like, offices probably were pretty insane, you know, before, like HR and like regulations and rules. So I'm sure people were doing some wild shit in the office place.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So maybe you could pass it.

[B]

I don't know. Or was there ever like a legit like, does someone like that have, like, a legit art store just randomly, like, say, no, like, for real, like, it's just its own company. I don't know anything about Bernie Madoff. I do, sort of, but not really what he owns. Owned. Did he have businesses that just were their own thing that, like, you would give Fredo a restaurant in the Mafia family, right? You give Fredo the restaurant, let Fredo run the restaurant, let him end his days managing the restaurant.

[A]

Yeah, I get what you're saying. He might have had some legitimate businesses up front.

[B]

Sorta, yeah.

[A]

But I feel like it's weird to have all your kids work for you and not have them working close to you, because those are the people you can probably trust the most. Like, look at Fred DePascali. He done told all the secrets. He done told about the fridge, about the SEC catch. Like, he told everything.

[B]

So what happened to the kids? Did they get prosecuted?

[A]

So they did not get prosecuted.

[B]

What?

[A]

December 11, 2008, Madoff is arrested on one count of securities fraud. Then he's released on a $10 million bail. December 17, Madoff is placed on house arrest, which, like, when you live in a mansion, what is house arrest? That sounds so nice. March 12, 2009, Madoff pleads guilty to 11 felony charges, including money laundering, perjury, false filings with the sec, and fraud. There is no deal with the government associated with the guilty plea. So he didn't even get the hookup because, like, when you're the ringleader, we don't need anything. Right? We're looking for you. Like, other people would get a deal, but not you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So. March 20, 2009, an appeal court rules that Madoff will remain in jail until sentencing April 1, which is real trash. Like, he had to, like, stay in jail. That's wild. He's pretty old, too. Federal marshals seized Madoff's yacht, a smaller boat, and one of his homes in Florida as court ordered seizures of the financier's assembly to start to begin. So now. Now the government's just taking all this back. Now what happens when the government seizes something is it just goes to auction.

[B]

I would think they have to auction it because the government doesn't need a mansion in Palm Beach, Florida.

[A]

Right. I mean, now they probably would. Trump would use a mansion in Trump. You know what?

[B]

Mar A Lago Trump owns everything.

[A]

That's so crazy. And you know what a scam is, is that he really has used the presidency. He shows up to people's weddings at Mar A Lago and, like, does surprise photo ops with them and stuff. So people will book this place hoping that he's gon up and be at

[B]

their way that he's that low class, shitty of a person. Yeah.

[A]

Like you are the current president of Let.

[B]

Let me go say hi to the folks at the steakhouse. Come on.

[A]

Trump is a true scammer. Like, how you gonna be doing club appearances? You the president. Go back to work, bruh. He literally does club appearances. I cannot take it. I feel like that. Like, oh, and tonight, Donald Trump in battle service. Like, what?

[B]

We got a terrific new property in Tahiti I just want to tell you about, right? He's like, no, he's never more happy than making a pitch for another way to make money for his family. Real estate holdings, whatever.

[A]

Like, it's crazy that we're just letting him get this money grab. Like, nobody's ever taken the presidency as a bigger money grab than Donald Trump. Like, he's getting in every way possible.

[B]

Yeah. And he's scamming constantly to keep it, keep it together. Maybe we'll get him.

[A]

I mean, honestly, at some point, I will have to do a Donald Trump scam goddess episode because he is a true scammer. Now, I can't praise him because he's a garbage human, but man, oh, man, does he scam. April 1, 2009. Federal marshal seized the yacht, the smaller boat, all of these things. June 29, 2009, Madoff is sentenced to 150 years in prison. Prison. Copy that, July 14. Madoff arrives at Butner Federal Correction Complex in North Carolina to begin serving his sentence. And in October 2, 2009, a $199 million lawsuit filed against Madoff's son, his brother Pete Maoff, his niece Shayna Madoff. So basically, the whole family, like, they pulled up at the family reunion, they're like, we're serving you. We're serving you. You are served. You are also served.

[B]

Like, was that a independent? Was that a government lawsuit or. Those were independent lawsuits.

[A]

These are independent lawsuits.

[B]

So private citizens were suing them or Kevin Bacon.

[A]

Kevin Bacon. Nobody puts baby in a corner, jk. That's not Kevin Bacon.

[B]

But, you know, so they were served.

[A]

Yeah. J. Yeah. Kevin Bacon got footloose on them hoes, you know what I mean? He was. Kevin Baker was probably at home dancing real aggressively outside in the rain. And, you know, because he got scared by Birdie, made off. So after he finished dancing by himself, himself, he went and he filed a lawsuit. So Madoff's wife and High school sweetheart, Ruth. Ruth truly is the beginning of all these scams, because remember, Bernie got that loan from Ruth's parents. Yeah.

[B]

Bernie married into money. Yeah.

[A]

So Ruth was never implicated in her husband's crimes, even though I'm sure Ruth was back there seasoning them books, honey. Like, just giving them all types of flavor, you know, Them books probably taste like old books have never been cooked better. Like, oh, these books taste good, like crime. So, you know, she was probably involved. But she agreed to forfeit $75 million in assets that were held in her name, including the couple's Upper east side apartment. Damn. Not the big apartment in the sky. The settlement with the federal prosecutors left her with $2.5 million, which she reportedly allows her to leave a comparatively modest life in old Grand Greenwich, Connecticut.

[B]

She had more money than that. There was more money somewhere.

[A]

Hell, yeah. Come on now.

[B]

Islands, Ruth.

[A]

Islands. Everybody's keeping their money in islands.

[B]

Right?

[A]

I. I guarantee she has so, so much more money. She's probably a scammer, too. Look, scammers, no scammers. She married a scammer and stayed married to him for, like, 50, 60 years.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Dark facts. The family lost their fortune, friends and reputation. Because that's the other thing is, like, now they can't even pull up to the yacht club no more. Well, one, the yacht club gone, Right. So they can't pull up. But even if they walked up to the yacht club, everybody's going to be whispering about them because they did, like, the most horrible thing you can do to other rich people. Which is.

[B]

Well, I think they tell them you're not a yacht member and you're not a yacht club member. That's what rich people would do. They would just kick them out.

[A]

They would take away the membership privileges.

[B]

Yeah, the country club.

[A]

And they would stop talking to them. They'd be like, Paxton Garon. What are Orson. You know, other rich names. Like, like, we. We can't talk to you anymore, Mark. Andrew.

[B]

No, it's not even that. They don't. Rich people don't even talk to each other. They just, like, get out of their car and go to their locker, and then they play golf by themselves, and then they get back in their car.

[A]

That's it.

[B]

I don't think back in country club life. Yeah. Doesn't.

[A]

It's not that nice. Are you a country club member?

[B]

I'm not. My dad was when. When we were kids, briefly.

[A]

My dad was, too.

[B]

Yeah, I like golf, but country club life, I don't necessarily like at all.

[A]

I Liked it, but I didn't like the nicer ones. It's all cuz nicer ones didn't have golf carts because that's like not a thing at nice golf clubs. And I was like, I'm not about to actually physically caddy for you. This is slavery. I'm not doing this. I was like, when you had the cart, it was cute. I would drive around that was lit. But now Carrie, golf cart. No, no, no, no. But so I guess you're right. So yeah, it's like Langston and Orson just don't talk to them anymore.

[B]

Yeah, I'm sure they walk into a

[A]

room and then it just fills with whispers.

[B]

I wonder if like. Yeah, it's interesting because they're all at the same private schools too.

[A]

Yeah, kids are so like really ruin their lives.

[B]

Cancer on the wealthy culture.

[A]

And then 2010, Mark, the eldest son, unfortunately committed suicide on the second anniversary of his father's arrest, which.

[B]

So he went first or lymphoma son went first.

[A]

He went first. And then Andrew died of lymphoma September 3, 2014. So yeah, it was a rough time for the kids afterwards. And like I said, Bernie had many high profile victims, including director Steven Spielberg, actors Kevin Bacon, Kyra Sedgwick and the New York Mets owner Fred Wilpon. Which I feel like when you start getting famous, people involved, like, it's just, It's a rap. 2008, Madoff controlled billions of investments. In 2013, he earned $40 per month doing prison labor. Talk about a paycheck cut.

[B]

And is he still with us? Yes, he's still in Carolina.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And it says that 16,519 investors have filed claims against Maam. Now I think that if you.

[B]

Well, shouldn't the government liquidate that mansion and create a fund for victims?

[A]

I feel like that's not how the government works.

[B]

They don't do that. They'll just turn it, they'll just sell it to Wells Fargo.

[A]

There's never any restitution. And I always think that's fucked about. The government too, is like, I don't think that Felicity Huffman should have gone to jail for two weeks for trying to scam the college thing. I think she should have paid half a million dollars and it should have been a scholarship for underprivileged students who need that money. What do we get outta seeing a beautiful white lady go to jail? What do we get out of that?

[B]

It creates the myth that even rich people have to pay.

[A]

But it's not even paying that's not even equality. She was having these damn meetings, talking about, well, I'm just spending time with my family before I go away. I'm like. Which I know you probably went away longer shooting one of them TV shows, Sis. You going away for. For two weeks. Two weeks.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And like, there are black people in jail way longer for doing the same thing. But I don't know, it's just. I'm just like. I feel like there's a different way that could actually be restorative justice than us just putting you in jail for show.

[B]

So if you had, say, they liquidated $500 million worth of assets.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's not. I don't know. Those people have art and stuff where what would you. You would just create a fundamental fund for. What would you do?

[A]

See, that's the hard part, because then it's like all these people are owed money from Bernie. So I guess the money should go to them. I don't know how this works. But also, like, if you're one of 16, 000 people who got ripped off by Bernie Maddock, I think you got charged it to the game. I don't know if you're gonna get that money back. I think you really just gotta charge it to the game. Especially the people with lower amounts of money that. Look, I gave Bernie a thousand dollars in 2002, and when I'm gonna get it back. Ma', am, we're not. We're not gonna give you back your money. Let it go.

[B]

House. House wins. House wins.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Like Atlanta City. Y' all gonna have to get out here and get your banana hammocks. Or if you're classy like Matt is, you go on down to the Ritz Carlton and you sit at the bar.

[B]

Atlantic City has a Ritz Carlton. Whatever. The nicest.

[A]

I don't know, the nicest thing in Atlanta. A Cheesecake Factory.

[B]

No, you gotta go to the bar that, like.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Do you know what I mean? If you're gonna.

[A]

So, like a. A Continental Marriott.

[B]

Is that a nice one? Yeah, those are decent.

[A]

The Hilton Garden.

[B]

No, that's low. That's too low. That's too low. I mean, Four Seasons would be the minimum. Mandarin, do they? I'd hang out at the Mandarin of

[A]

Four Seasons in Atlantic City.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

Okay. They have a Mandarin, though, right?

[B]

They probably do, right? Yeah, those are nice.

[A]

So you go. You put on your nicest banana hammock and bow tie. You can go make long ey with people at the bar. Okay, that's the only way you can get your money back. Bernie made off because he made off with it. We've reached our last segment of the show. Oh, yes, sorry, Scammer of the week. And this is just a segment where I highlight a infamous scammer or you know, maybe a little known scammer who I just really think is worthy of our praise. So this week's scammer of the week is 18 year old Isaiah Atkins, who became a fake state senator to give paid speeches at high schools. Adkins claimed to be newly elected state senator who had been appointed to replace Republican senator Dave Burke. He has since been charged with telecommunications fraud and impersonation of a peace officer. When Atkins showed up to school, he said he was there to fill. He said he was there to fill in for Burke. As a guest speaker for a social studies class at Mohawk High School. Atkins pulled up to the small town high school in northern Ohio with a driver's and two aids.

[B]

So to pose as a senator or congressman. What poses a senator as a senator. State senator.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Not a federal. Not a federal State senator.

[A]

Okay. And what I love about this is like, you know, people don't read. People don't know that much about their politics, especially if we're talking local, you know what I mean? And also I love that this is a scam with props. I love props. Props. And he came with a driver, an

[B]

ensemble, like a posse of actors.

[A]

Yeah. If he had come by himself, I would be like, this is bizarre. I don't believe you. But if you come with three other hired actors, I don't know.

[B]

Aids, aids.

[A]

I'm believing it. Get them, get them a little wired earpiece. I'm into it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know you can get that at Radio Shack. So many fraud utensils you can buy at Radio Shack and also at Staples. They're necessary. And Kinko's. These are necessary places for fraudsters. I'm sure anytime you step in one of those stores, just know somebody's in there buying things for crime.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Just know. So. So. Kit. Ken Radcliffe, the superintendent for the school, said in the statement, the presentation, although not polished, was one that someone might expect from a young, inexperienced, newly appointed senator. The real senator had planned to speak in mid January, but a US government teacher at the school received a call from 18 year old Atkins who allegedly claimed that Burke had become ill and resigned. So, and this is like present day. I'm trying to find the year that this happened. Cody, can you grab me the year that this happened? Because I truly need to Understand why somebody called you and told you that the senator was ill and could not resigned.

[B]

Senator was ill and resigned. So now.

[A]

So he called her and was like, hey, what's up? It's me, Isaiah. I'm calling because Senator Burke actually, you know, he got a bad call and he decided to quit Senator Ring. So I'm going to be filling in for him. I. What? This line doesn't even sound that plausible. What the hell? So at Atkins had been named the senator's replacement. Because that's how senators work. They just get a replacement pro tem. So he said he would visit in Burke's place, but needed to move up the date. Now I need you to also realize that this is a US government teacher that he called, called and told the teacher that the senator was sick and he was going to be the replacement senator. Cuz that's how government works. You are a US government teacher, sis. She needs to be fired. Frankly, she's the one who needs to be facing some trouble.

[B]

She didn't stiff it out.

[A]

You're teaching kids about US government and literally somebody called you and told you the most.

[B]

She should have sniffed it out. There, there.

[A]

Yeah, I don't even think she should have sniffed. That's right in your face.

[B]

Yeah, I agree.

[A]

He could have basically just called and be like, hey, I'm lying. Hey, I'm about to tell you some lies real quick. You cool? And Minister said that Senator Atkins arrived Dec. 15 and showed his real identification and gave a presentation. Why did he want to do this so badly?

[B]

Was he getting paid or no?

[A]

He must have been getting paid.

[B]

No, Senator can't get paid paid maybe. Probably not. So just to pose as a senator. I guess.

[A]

So when the real Senator Burke showed up for his scheduled presentation January 14, school administrators and students discovered that they had been duped. He must have been getting paid.

[B]

So it came and went.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So days later the real senator showed up.

[A]

And he's 18 years old also. So he's an 18 year old senator. Says he. So when Atkins said that his intention was to expose security risks in small town schools. These, these.

[B]

Come on.

[A]

He said these country schools think it can't happen to them. I was duping to prove a point that these kinds of things can happen. They could have easily googled me. And they didn't. Authorities said Atkins was arrested after they were alerted of the incident by the state Senate. Burke, the real Senator, called it an extremely alarming, elaborate scheme. I'm saying that too. Like what did you get out of this?

[B]

So I Guess my question is when he's. He's saying I'm proving a point, that security at small town schools isn't tight. Yeah, but what is that a baloney excuse or is that really. It does explain does, but it's also

[A]

like, how did you get these other two people to come play AIDS in this car? Like, what is wrong with you?

[B]

That is true.

[A]

This is a weird thing to do. It's like, hey, y', all, do y' all want to come drive to this country school? Yeah, it's about 7m. It's about seven hours away. Little country school. And then y' all be pretending to be my aids. Why?

[B]

Yeah, and I gotta. It's also stupidity on the inside too, because like, there's gotta been some follow up calls when that second senator showed up. Like, the front office is okay, I'm coming by Friday, don't forget. And then he shows up and that's when they sniff out they'd been scammed. But not until then. Like, whoever's getting those calls to schedule these events. Do you know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There's two senators scheduling events at this school, right?

[A]

You don't have a calendar. You weren't like, oh, true.

[B]

Reception or whatever. Like, it's a school. So it's like, I'm Senator One. I'd like to do it on December 14th. Great. Senator. Okay, make sure we'll call back a week before. Or not. Second senator also talking, same person. Hey, just wanted to. No, December 20th is still on. Yeah, 20th is. You know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah. You are the senator with a different name. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Look, teachers are underpaid and overworked. Okay? They were just like, I don't know. Sure, you're both the senator. Who cares who gets kids?

[B]

I got kids screaming.

[A]

Right? We just want to break from the kids. You got to watch them for 30 minutes while you give them this speech.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

Like, I just need a smoke break.

[B]

I don't care.

[A]

I don't care who comes in here. I'm the senator. We're all the senator. Who gives a fuck? I love it. So shout out to Isaiah. I don't understand the scam, but I appreciate your dedication to pulling it off. Truly. All right, guys, we've reached the end of the episode. I can't believe it.

[B]

Wow. Time flew.

[A]

You were amazing.

[B]

Did I do do good?

[A]

You did fantastic. Fantastic.

[B]

I just want to make greatest hits.

[A]

Oh, goodness. Greatest and greatest. This is like now.

[B]

Season two. Season one. Are we season one?

[A]

We're still Season one right now.

[B]

Season one.

[A]

This will be like the now, now. That's what I'm talking about. Scams. And then like number one song. Matt Walsh. Yes. Where do you want to be found? I ask people where they want to be found.

[B]

I guess I have an Instagram. I do. Mr. Matt Walsh.

[A]

Mr. Matt Walsh.

[B]

That's pretty simple. Yeah, I occasionally do it. Yeah.

[A]

Yes. Okay. Any shows, anything you want to plug.

[B]

Okay. February 2020, I'm working with Scripps and we're dropping Finding Marcus Jones Tronk, which is a six or seven part podcast series miniseries about a documentary filmmaker whose archive was discovered later in life like he was no longer around.

[A]

It's very funny.

[B]

I think it is.

[A]

It's very funny. I can see pieces of it. It's super funny.

[B]

Oh, good.

[A]

And guys, you can always find me at D I V A L A C I divalacy on all platforms. If you want to email in any scams that you've retired or times that you've been scammed, please share them with us at scamgodesspodmail. You can find us at Scam Goddess Pod on Twitter, on Instagram and Bitcoin. All right, guys, congregation, stay scheming.