Stop Trying to Fix People: Mel Robbins on the Power of Letting Go

Summary

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Science of Perception Box

Episode: "Stop Trying to Fix People: Mel Robbins on the Power of Letting Go"

Original Release: August 12, 2026
Hosts: Dr. Heather Berlin, Dr. Christoph Koch
Guest: Mel Robbins

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the power of "letting go"—relinquishing the urge to fix or control loved ones and embracing acceptance instead. Drawing on personal stories, neuroscience, and Mel Robbins' best-selling "Let Them Theory," the conversation unpacks how our beliefs, biases, and neural wiring (our Perception Box) shape our experiences of others. The panel delves into why people change only when they’re ready, why trying to control others backfires, and how radical acceptance fosters stronger, healthier relationships.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Perception Box: How We Filter Reality

• Definition:
  The Perception Box is “an invisible mental box each of us lives inside, built from our beliefs, life experiences, and the meaning we've made out of those experiences” (Elizabeth Koch, 00:14–00:30).
• Expansion and Contraction:
  • Expands in states of curiosity, awe, wonder.
  • Contracts in fear, anxiety, or anger.
• Podcast Purpose:
  Explore how to expand our Perception Box for more awareness, curiosity, and healthier relationships (00:30–01:39).

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Letting Go vs. Trying to Fix

Accepting What You Can’t Change

• Christoph Koch:
  • Describes learning (sometimes the hard way) to "let it go" when faced with others’ unchangeable habits:
    • “You mention it two times, you mention it 10 times, nothing changes. Both sides get aggressive, and then you just one day realize, I should just let it go. And then it just feels, oh, fine. Doesn't bother me anymore.” (02:21)
• Heather Berlin:
  • Shares a story about holding back from trying to “fix” a loved one’s drinking, emphasizing the importance of letting people find their own motivation:
    • “I want to give all my advice, but sometimes it’s better to just hold back and let the person find that motivation to change on their own.” (03:26–04:15)

The Difficulty of Watching Loved Ones Struggle

• Mel Robbins (foundational moment):

  • “The people that you love will not change on your timeline. They will not heal when you’re ready for them to heal. They will not get sober when you’re ready for them to get sober. People only change when they are ready to do the very difficult work to change for themselves.” (00:00; repeated at 06:32 and 08:01)
  • Observes how the instinct to help springs from love, but the strategy is often about our struggle to tolerate watching someone we love in pain.

    “The mistake is thinking they need you to solve the problem. That’s not what they need you to do. They need you to stand by their side… and double down on the belief that they’re capable of figuring this out.” (06:32)

• Role of Pain:

  • People typically change when continuing as is becomes harder than changing. (08:11)
    • “In addiction medicine… people only get sober when they reach a moment and realize that being drunk is harder than doing the things they’ve avoided doing. That’s the moment… something switches in the brain.” (08:11)

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The Neuroscience & Psychology of Change

• Heather Berlin:

  • Emphasizes individual brain wiring: “Every brain is a little bit different… our experiences are different, our biology is different. So the way you’re perceiving… is going to be different than [others’] perspective on the world.” (12:25)
  • On Motivation:
    • “Help put them in the right circumstances, that they’re gonna find that internal change… Research shows the biggest influence in [kids’] lives are their peers, not the parents.” (13:20)
    • “The prefrontal cortex isn’t fully developed until about the age of 25. So it’s much harder for a teenager to withhold doing the immediate pleasurable thing…” (13:48)

• Interpersonal Boundaries:

  • Mel Robbins: “Let them. Not because I'm allowing it, let them as a boundary… What are my values, what kind of support do I want to provide? ...I can only control how I choose to show up.” (18:59–20:40)

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Letting Go to Gain Control

• The Paradox:

  • Heather Berlin’s research into “The Fine Art of Losing Control” highlights:

    “You can actually gain more control by letting go.” (22:01)

  • Mel Robbins: “When the pandemic hit and there was just an extraordinary amount of change coming at everybody, everybody went into a fight or flight response… But it also opened up this huge opportunity...” (22:11–23:33)
  • “Isn’t it true that you gain control when you give it up? Stoicism at the heart of it? The answer is yes.” (24:21)

• Mental Overload:

  • Mel describes chronic societal stress post-pandemic:

    “We are stuck in a state of chronic stress, meaning the amygdala is running the show… If you ask any employee in any company, they probably cannot tell you the single biggest priority that’s important for this week or for the quarter. And this has had huge implications on people’s ability to feel in control.” (23:33–25:37)

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Practical Strategies for Letting Go

• Heather’s "Cold Tea Test":

  • “Whatever your task you do where you make a cup of tea, suddenly you look, it’s cold. That’s a great rule of thumb [for flow].” (26:42–26:55)
  • Suggests creative work, being in nature, exercise, and daydreaming as healthy ways to disconnect from overstimulation and return to internal awareness. (27:08–28:04)

• Stoicism & Radical Acceptance:

  • Marcus Aurelius Quote (offered by Christoph):

    "If thou art pained by any external thing, it is not this thing that disturbs thee, but thy own judgment about it. It is in thy power to wipe out this judgment now." (14:45)

• "Let Them" as a Mantra:

  • Mel:

    “It’s four words: let them and let me. That help you apply Stoicism, serenity, Viktor Frankl’s… Detachment theory, radical acceptance.” (28:59–29:00) “The number one cause of your stress, which is other people. They're super annoying. You can't change them… why would you allow that to drain your life force?” (30:22–31:32)

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Deepening Relationships Through Acceptance

• On Family:

  • “One of the reasons we have family is it teaches you how to love people you hate sometimes.” (30:22)

• Let Them vs. Let Me:

  • Let them: Release control, don’t enable, allow struggle.
  • Let me: Set boundaries, choose supportive actions, focus on your own reactions and values.
  • “People literally need time and space to not be hounded or reminded and to be allowed to struggle without [being told ‘I told you so’].” (16:59–17:05)
  • “Learning how to give people the space to have the dignity of their own experience is a completely different way to love somebody and hold space for them… When people feel accepted, they soften and they move toward you.” (34:31–36:25)

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Rapid-Fire Scenarios: 'Let Them or Step In?' (43:00–46:24)

• Friend cancels on you for the third time:
  Let them—people have a lot going on; show concern if you sense something more (43:00–44:08)
• Partner not taking out the trash:
  Let them—don't react emotionally; extend grace (44:17–44:54)
• Coworker takes credit for your idea:
  Let them, but then "let me say something about it"—stand up for yourself with composure (45:01–45:05)
• Negative Instagram comment:
  Let them—don’t take advice from strangers online (45:10–45:19)
• Daughter wants to dye her hair green before a wedding:
  Let her—cherish the unique memories; life’s about allowing people to live (45:25–46:07)
• Mom gives unsolicited advice again:
  Let her—acknowledge her feelings, have honest conversation if needed, hold space for each other (46:29–48:18)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Mel Robbins, on letting go:

  “People only change when they are ready to do the very difficult work to change for themselves.” (00:00, 08:01)

• Heather Berlin:

  “Your prefrontal cortex isn’t fully developed until about the age of 25. So it’s much harder for a teenager to withhold doing the immediate pleasurable thing… for some longer term goal.” (13:48)

• Christoph Koch, invoking Stoicism:

  “If thou art pained by any external thing, it is not this thing that disturbs thee, but thy own judgment about it. It is in thy power to wipe out this judgment now.” (14:45)

• Mel Robbins on family:

  “One of the reasons we have family is it teaches you how to love people you hate sometimes.” (30:22)

• On People-Pleasing:

  “If you struggle with pleasing other people and making everybody happy, you’re actually very manipulative… because you want to control what people think about you. That’s a form of manipulation.” (41:00)

• On Radical Acceptance:

  “Can you accept somebody as they are and as they’re not, without holding your opinion and your judgment over their head? …That’s what love is.” (34:31)

• On Control:

  “You can actually gain more control by letting go.” (22:01)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Letting Go vs. Fixing People – 00:00, 01:53–06:32
• Personal Stories: Parenting, Addiction, Acceptance – 06:32–13:20
• Neuroscience of Motivation & Perception – 12:25–14:20
• On Partners & Adult Change – 14:20–17:05
• Boundaries and Responsibility – 18:59–20:40
• Letting Go for Control, The Pandemic Effect – 22:01–25:37
• Practical Tips: Flow & Disconnection – 26:42–28:04
• Summary of 'Let Them' Popularity – 28:52–31:32
• Deeper Acceptance in Relationships – 34:31–36:25
• Perception Box Question: What People Imagine About You – 37:09–42:03
• On People-Pleasing as Manipulation – 41:00–41:34
• Let Them or Step In? Game – 43:00–48:18

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Final Reflections

The episode’s core message is clear: lasting change comes from within, not from external pushing or fixing. By letting go—practicing boundaries, radical acceptance, and focusing on our own responses—we give others the dignity to struggle, grow, and change (or not) on their own terms. In doing so, we also reclaim a greater sense of peace, presence, and agency in our own lives.

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Transcript

[Mel Robbins]

The people that you love will not change on your timeline. They will not heal when you're ready for them to heal. They will not get sober when you're ready for them to get sober. People only change when they are ready to do the very difficult work to change for themselves.

[Elizabeth Koch]

Hi, I'm Elizabeth Koch. What's a perception box? It's this invisible mental box that each one of us lives inside, built from the material of our beliefs, life experiences,

[Heather Berlin]

and the meaning we've made out of those experiences.

[Elizabeth Koch]

You could think of it as a kind of reality filter that's constantly shaping how we see ourselves, other people, and the world around us. This podcast explores how, although the walls of this box are always present, they can expand in moments of curiosity, awe, and wonder, or contract in response to fear, anxiety, and anger. In each episode, we invite experts to share how to create last shifts in our perception. I'd like to introduce our esteemed host, Heather Berlin, professor of psychiatry and neuroscience at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai, and Christoph Koch, chief scientist for the Tiny Blue Dot foundation and former president of the Allen Institute for Brain Science. Welcome to the Science of Perception Box. This week, our guest is Mel Robbins. What Mel makes clear is how much energy we spend trying to control others and how much freer we feel when instead we go inside ourselves and address the root of our reactivity, which, as we'll see, has much less to do with the present moment than our personal history.

[Heather Berlin]

We're going to open it up with personal stories, and I want to ask you, has there ever been a time when somebody really frustrated you, but you decided to just let them be? And how did that actually shift things for you?

[Christoph Koch]

I mean, in most relationships, after what you know, there are things that you that you do find frustrating, they're unable to change, but then you just have to literally let it go and accept people. That's how they are. And if you love them, want to continue to live with them, or they're part of your family, then you just let it go and it feels great. At that point, you're accepted and, okay, this is what she says, or this is what he does, and it's fine.

[Mel Robbins]

How do you deal with your own

[Heather Berlin]

frustration, though, about it?

[Christoph Koch]

The first couple of times this happens, right? If it's always the same type of stereotype behavior, you really get annoyed. You mention it two times, you mention it 10 times, you mention it 20 times, nothing changes. Both sides get aggressive, and then you just one day realize, I should just let it go. And then it Just feels, oh, fine. Doesn't bother me anymore.

[Heather Berlin]

So basically, accept the things you cannot change.

[Christoph Koch]

Yes. And that's this particular mindset when you do that. And what does it take in your mind to go from, ah, this is so annoying to I'm just gonna let it slide. I think that's what they call wisdom.

[Heather Berlin]

Ah, do you have that yet?

[Christoph Koch]

Yes, I do. I think to a certain extent. I mean, we can always have more wisdom, but I think it's part of living and learning to get to know people better, that you look inside and you say, well, I mean, am I willing to live with this person despite his or her faults? And then you say, yes, because I too, believe it or not, have some faults.

[Heather Berlin]

What? This is the first I'm hearing about this.

[Christoph Koch]

Yes.

[Heather Berlin]

So you accept the things you're.

[Christoph Koch]

Purely hypothetical.

[Heather Berlin]

Hypothetical, obviously.

[Christoph Koch]

What about you, Heather?

[Heather Berlin]

Well, I had somebody very close to me who I thought was drinking a bit too much, and I really care about this person. And I, you know, I said what I thought about it, and it continued to go on for a bit. And then at some point I had to say, you know, let them. And when they feel it's time for them to make a change, they will. And thankfully, actually, ultimately they did. I had to kind of hold back because. Because I have a tendency also, like, as a therapist and someone who's worked with people, you know, who've had addiction problems or impulse control issues. I want to give all my advice, but sometimes it's better to just hold back and let the person find that motivation to change on their own. Cause I found that he was starting to get frustrated with me, trying to impose my values, and that doesn't help people change.

[Christoph Koch]

He constantly tell me, don't drink. Don't drink this glass.

[Heather Berlin]

Or I can just give you advice of, like, you know, drinking can cause cancer and, like, whatever, but it can get annoying. I know, I know. Well, that's great.

[Christoph Koch]

At this dinner that you remind me I might get cancer due to this. Thank you very much for doing that. That really sets. Sets up the dinner.

[Heather Berlin]

I wouldn't do it in the moment, but maybe at a, you know, when we're not drinking. But the point is that that doesn't really impact people as much as, you know, that they need to kind of discover for themselves. And if they realize, I mean, I think it's okay to at least state your opinion, maybe know how you feel. But after that, you have to let it go.

[Mel Robbins]

You know, say how you feel and

[Heather Berlin]

then let it go and see if the Person enacts change on their own. And I think ultimately that helps with your relationship with people as well. Well, on that note, we have the perfect guest to help us practice this process of letting things go. Welcome to the podcast, Mel Robbins.

[Mel Robbins]

Thank you. Thank you very much for having. I'm so excited to be here.

[Heather Berlin]

We're excited. We're very excited to have you. Is it hard for you to watch someone you love not make the obvious change they need to make or not make the right decisions? And you know,

[Mel Robbins]

the hardest thing in the world is to watch someone that you love and you don't even have to love them. I'm going to say just watch any other human being, whether you work with them, whether you're married to them, whether they're in your family, not do the obvious thing. It is excruciating. It is frustrating. We are so judgmental of other people. It is so easy to look at what other people are doing and to say, oh, well, you should do this. And if I were in your shoes, I would do that. And you must be an idiot. So give me an example.

[Christoph Koch]

You have a child, you dearly love the child. The child is now an adult and is dysfunctional in some way. Drinks too much, does drugs or whatever else, and you love them, but they. And they're now sort of 25 or even older, and it impains you. So what do you do?

[Mel Robbins]

Okay, this is a really hard question. And having a 26 year old, a 25 year old and a 20 year

[Christoph Koch]

old, one of them is in.

[Mel Robbins]

One of them who is here.

[Heather Berlin]

Oh, really? Oh, wow.

[Mel Robbins]

Yeah, Sawyer is here. She wrote the Let Them theory book with me. At any moment, somebody that you love is probably not doing okay. And the gut instinct that you're gonna have, particularly as a parent, is you're gonna want in and you're gonna want to run in and rescue them. You're going to want to run in and tell them what they should do. You're going to want to run in and try to clear away all their problems and try to solve it. And what I have learned the hard way, you're going to explain the neuroscience behind this is that that instinct is beautiful because it comes from a place of caring. But the strategy that you're using that is driven by your stress because you can't tolerate the fact that somebody else is struggling. And you also, deep down, have this belief that they're not capable of figuring it out without you. And that's the mistake. The mistake is thinking they need you to solve the problem. That's not what they need you to do. They need you to stand by their side and be ready to support and for you to double down on the belief that they're capable of figuring this out when they are ready to figure it out. And that's the hardest part. Because the people that you love will not change on your timeline. They will not heal when you're ready for them to heal. They will not get sober when you're ready for them to get sober. People only change when they are ready to do the very difficult work to change for themselves.

[Christoph Koch]

But, of course, staying with the scenario, you're also concerned that at some point that child may do something that's irreversible and get them into serious trouble.

[Mel Robbins]

Yes. And they might. And so the issue isn't, do you care? The issue isn't, is this going in the wrong direction? The issue is, how do I intervene or not in a way that is the most effective and the most productive, not based on my emotional state, but based on what experts like you tell us is how you influence change in other people. Because let's be clear, this took me a long 54 years to figure out. I still have trouble with it, especially as a parent and as a spouse. Other people only change when they're ready to change. You can explain this better than I can, that the brain is wired to default toward what feels easy right now, and it is wired to push you away from what is very hard right now. And so in order for a human being to change, which we are designed to do, you have to push against that natural wiring in your brain. I remember it was Dr. K. Who I interviewed for the Let Them theory book. And he said basically that in addiction medicine, which was his specialty at Harvard Medical School, he said that people only get sober when they reach a moment and they realize that being drunk is harder than doing the things that they've avoided doing. That's the moment. And that's also the moment, if you really think about the science of it, that there's something that switches in the brain and you're like, oh, wait a minute. Drinking, drugs, being in relationships like this, not motivating myself to change or change, this is actually harder than doing the thing I've been resisting. And so the question to ask yourself is this, if you have somebody in your life that's struggling, the question becomes, what role do I play so that I could possibly accelerate the moment when the person who needs to do the hard work to change has that epiphany for themselves?

[Christoph Koch]

Well, it may be that there isn't too much you can do at this point. Right. That the person has to go through.

[Mel Robbins]

They have to. They have to. Because the thing that. I'm going to talk about it from a common sense standpoint, and I hope you talk about it from the neuroscience standpoint, like from a common sense standpoint. I'll just give you a scenario with our son. So our son was profoundly dyslexic, struggled in schools, bounced from the public high school to a school for kids with dyslexia to a tiny little school where he had no friends, and he felt like the dumbest kid there. And then all of a sudden, he gets back to a public high school. He has just had the, you know, what beaten up about him. Right. Of course he's not engaged in academics. And one of the things that, as a parent, you know, I want him to be motivated. I want him to do well because I believe that's gonna make him feel better about himself. So now I'm projecting my beliefs on him. As a parent, I have a certain responsibility to guide him and to try to motivate him and to help him make better decisions. But I didn't understand the basics around human behavior and human relationships and the levers that either make somebody motivated or makes them resist even further and dig in. And I was doing the opposite of what you should do. And so it's freshman year, and I'd be down in the kitchen, and I'd hear, upstairs. You know, as a kid is playing video games, we're like, whoa, whoa. Go, go, go. You're like, what is going on up there? I know what's going on up there, and it's not studying. And so I would put down the wooden spoon and I'd march upstairs, and I'd swing open the door, and I'd be like, hey. And he, you know, spins around. What? I'm like, dude, have you done your homework yet? No, I'm gonna get to it. Honey, you have to get your homework done. Now. Let's just freeze this. First of all, do I think he's an idiot? Of course. He knows that in order to do well at school, playing video games isn't going to make it happen. He knows this. He also knows that studying is going to help. And so I come marching up there and I treat him like a moron. Studying's really hard. That's why he avoids it, because he doesn't think he's good at it. And it takes a lot of effort. So this makes perfect sense. When you think about the brain science,

[Heather Berlin]

this is what I would say, though, in terms of some of the science behind it. So, you know, we're. The concept of this, the perception box podcast, really, is that we all see the world through our own perspective. Right. We all have our own perception. Because every brain is a little bit different. Right? Every brain. I mean, brains are very similar in some ways, but it's each like a unique thumbprint. And so our experiences are different, our biology is different. And so we all. The brain sort of constructs our reality, and it's different for everyone. So the way you're perceiving, let's say with your son, your perspective on him is gonna be different than his perspective on the world. Right. And so what we can do in terms of the question of how can we help somebody without, you know, intervening in such a way that they push back is help put them in the right circumstances, that they're gonna find that internal change. They're gonna have that internal locus of control. So for kids, research shows that the biggest influence in their lives are their peers.

[Mel Robbins]

Yes.

[Heather Berlin]

Not the parents.

[Christoph Koch]

A teenager.

[Heather Berlin]

A teenager. And the parents of the peers. So put them in situations where they're going to maybe be around the kinds of peers you want them to be around that are actually going to influence them. And then when you're talking about, you know, doing something hard, like withholding immediate pleasure for some long term goal that takes time to build. Right. Your prefrontal cortex.

[Mel Robbins]

You mean like withholding the video game playing?

[Heather Berlin]

Right, the marshmallow. Marshmallow test.

[Mel Robbins]

Yes.

[Heather Berlin]

Your prefrontal cortex isn't fully developed until about the age of 25. So it's much harder for a teenager to withhold Doing the immediate pleasurable thing. Playing the video game for some longer term goal.

[Mel Robbins]

Yes.

[Heather Berlin]

Right. Of.

[Mel Robbins]

Yes.

[Heather Berlin]

But if the brain is sort of like, it's a set of ones and zeros, it's making calculations all the time with the input. So sometimes you give it. You need to give some input. Enough input gets in there where it changes the algorithm. Okay. Now it's shifted. And I'm internally motivated for whatever these reasons are that have hit a tipping point to shift my own behavior.

[Mel Robbins]

Okay, now let me give you a $100 million question. You ready? How do I get my spouse to take better care of himself? How do I get him to exercise? How do I get him to stop drinking too much? How do I get him to get up in the morning and be a early riser like me? How do you do that? Using the Science.

[Heather Berlin]

Well, what I would say is more

[Mel Robbins]

like, okay, great changes settings in their brain.

[Christoph Koch]

Can I cite something that's 2,000 years old that my dad gave me when I was a little kid and acting, doing stupid stuff as boy as I want to. It's by the emperor Marcus Aurelius. I think you allude to him indirectly. His meditation book, 2000 years old. He has a simple maxim. If thou art pained by any external thing, it is not this thing that disturbs thee, but thy own judgment about it. It is in thy power to wipe out this judgment now. So I think with your husband, I would first, foremost probably suggest let him be.

[Mel Robbins]

But I don't want to. I don't want to because he's pissing me off and I want him to be different. And I think I know best and I. It's hard to let people be.

[Heather Berlin]

What I would say from a psychology perspective is to approach it rather than this is what you should be doing. Stay away from any kind of shoulds, is approach it you want with love. I love you so much. And I really want to be able to spend as much as my life with you as I can. And I want you to live as long as possible because I love the time we spend together and in a way shift the perspective, rather than a judgmental perspective of I would. I hope you can be so healthy that you can live long and give him a different kind of a motivation.

[Mel Robbins]

Yes.

[Christoph Koch]

Are you some sort of therapist?

[Heather Berlin]

I'm also a therapist, yes. But you know, if you do it because, oh, stop drinking, it's bad for you. That's not a good enough reason. But I want to spend time with you. I really love you so much and I enjoy our time together. What can you do to increase your longevity, you know, or let's do something fun together, like come to the gym with me. I want to spend time with you. And approaching it like from a more sort of tangential perspective rather than a stop doing that or you need to do this directly.

[Mel Robbins]

The problem with that is you have that moment and we're both crying. I do too. Oh, baby, thank you for. And then the next morning. And that's when the work happens. And here's one of the things that I think about a lot, which is

[Christoph Koch]

the work happens for him, for you, for you.

[Mel Robbins]

The work happens for you.

[Heather Berlin]

You have to sit with that feeling.

[Mel Robbins]

You have to sit with that feeling. And the way that I think about this too, from a common sense standpoint, is that nobody wants to be told what to do because we want to feel that we are in control of our own experience. And everybody is afraid to make that change, Whether it's breaking up with the person that your family doesn't like, or it's finally motivating and getting a different job, or it's taking better care of yourself. I think we are all afraid of that moment when everybody goes, see, I told you. And then that moment robs you of your agency and your sense that I did this on my own and I came to my own conclusions. And I am not just some puppet in this family. And that's another place where I see that I made major mistakes in the past, that I didn't realize that people literally need time and space to not be hounded or reminded and to just to be allowed to struggle without the experience that my husband and I went through in our 40s where we were 800 grand in debt and alcoholics and screaming at each other and leans on the house and everything's about to blow up. Without that experience of pain and without life and the decisions that I make that I take full responsibility for feeling like a sledgehammer without that pain, I never would have had the moment where I could say to myself, honestly, this doesn't fucking work. And if I want my life to feel different, I have to do something different. It's really that simplistic.

[Christoph Koch]

So you need the struggle to come to realization.

[Mel Robbins]

You have to.

[Heather Berlin]

It's like alcoholics, when you say, let them hit rock bottom. Sometimes you have to let people have the natural consequences of their actions.

[Mel Robbins]

Now, look, you can have the intervention do that, because that's the part of this theory that's like, I recognize let them. Let them. Isn't like, I'm just going to let you die in a gutter. Let them. Is when you say to yourself, I'm drawing a boundary because I'm recognizing that the things out there, this person or the world at large, it is now getting into my head and my body. And I got to say, let them. Not because I'm allowing it, let them as a boundary where you say, I'm recognizing what's happening. And what's happening is a person that I love is self destructing and what they do is out of my control. So I have to say, let them. Because their healing, their sobriety, their job, their finances, their future, that is their responsibility. But now let me say the second part. Let me. Let me focus on what I can control. What are my values, what kind of support do I want to provide? What do I want to think about this. What do I want to do or not do? How am I going to process the feelings that are rising and falling? Because this scares me, because I'm worried, because I'm anxious something terrible might happen. And let me choose how to show up in this moment so that no matter what happens with this person, I can at least know that I did the best that I could. And so that might mean I'm gonna have an intervention not once, not twice, but three times. It might mean you're gonna drive somebody and pay for them to go to rehab. If you can do that, you can only control. I will always be here on the sidelines. I'm always here to support you. But I am having to do the excruciatingly difficult thing of understanding. I can't control or change you.

[Christoph Koch]

It's not just one decision that I decide one day. Okay, this is the boundary. But it's a constantly negotiated boundary and fluctuating boundary right within myself. What I will tolerate and what I won't.

[Mel Robbins]

Yes.

[Heather Berlin]

But I would say there's individual differences. So I'm working on this book now. It's called the Fine Art of Losing Control. How do we lose control? Wow. And how do we let go from a neuroscience perspective? And it strikes me that's probably where you were coming from as being a lawyer. You have a lot of executive control. You have a lot of control. You had three children. You're running a household, you're doing.

[Mel Robbins]

I don't feel like I had a lot of control. Like, maybe it looked like I did, but I think a lot of people have the experience where you are under an avalanche. Your whole day is response, response, response, response. It's only gotten worse now that there's slack and email and there's social media and your phone notifications, and everything's like, pop up. Input, input, input, input. And so even though everybody gets on the bus, even though the emails get answered, even though, like, it looks like I got it all together, I will go on the record and say that 80% of us feel like we are completely failing, that we are not able to focus time and energy on the things that are important, and we're not doing a good job at any of it.

[Heather Berlin]

But would you find then. Cause this is kind of a concept I'm thinking about from a neuroscience perspective, is that you can actually gain more control by letting go, oh, 1,000%.

[Mel Robbins]

When the pandemic hit and there was just an extraordinary amount of change coming at everybody, and everybody went into, like, a fight or flight responsive Mode to the change. It happened at work, it happened at school, it happened with your family. Everybody's coming home, everything's changing. We don't know what's happening.

[Christoph Koch]

Where were you? Boston.

[Mel Robbins]

I was in Boston for part of it, but then we were up in Vermont for a lot of it. And my whole business turned upside down like everybody else's. But it also opened up this huge opportunity because instead of giving keynote addresses and doing corporate trainings in person, everything went virtual. And so it opened up this possibility for the first time that maybe I don't need to live in a city in order to do the work that I do. And you know, that was a positive. There were a lot of negatives. But I started to notice this trend because I was being invited by major Fortune 100 companies to be doing these trainings. And I started to say, well, why don't you have everybody submit selfie videos and share the biggest things they're struggling with. So we would get thousands of videos from biotech firms and from banks and from the big tech companies. And then my team and I would assemble a big presentation responding to all these and then talk about what was where.

[Christoph Koch]

People would send in two or three minute long videos.

[Mel Robbins]

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And then we assembled an hour long presentation where I'm like, well, we got 87 videos basically asking this question. And it would be from their global workforce of people that were engineers all talking about anxiety or nervousness or I can't sleep suddenly or the chronic self doubt or the procrastination is ticked up. And as you two know, this is research that comes from Dr. Aditi Narurkar at Harvard Medical School that when medically speaking you go into a stress response, and please correct me if I get the facts wrong, you automatically switch from the functioning part of your brain to the amygdala and the reactive mode. And what her research suggests is that you don't naturally switch back and that her research, which we write about in this book, is that 83% of Americans are stuck in a state of chronic stress, meaning the amygdala is running the show. I personally believe that nobody understands that coming out of React, React, react. We're on zoom calls all day long, we're working all weekend, we're doing this, we're doing that. That we've never exhaled as a society, as a country. Yes, your job is still a gigantic reaction. Emergency response, when everything's important, nothing's important. That if you ask any employee in any company, they probably cannot tell you the single Biggest priority that's important for this week or for the quarter. And this has had huge implications on people's ability to feel in control. And so to your point, isn't it true that you gain control when you give it up? Stoicism at the heart of it? The answer is yes. And I'm gonna focus on these things that are important right now. And that's going to help my brain focus on the thing that matters. And ironically, by not doing everything, I feel better.

[Heather Berlin]

And the prioritization and also just letting go in ways of, like going into a flow state. Letting go, you know, of your sense of self in a way, and doing activities where you can really just not be so much focused in control on what's happening in the environment.

[Mel Robbins]

But letting go, how do you do that? Like, what would be your biggest tip as a neuroscientist? You two, for somebody that comes home, they've been bombarded with emails. They're stressed about their kid who's self destructing. They're annoyed at their spouse who's like sleeping in and not going to the gym. They're check it's all up here and then what do they do? Grab the phone.

[Heather Berlin]

Right.

[Mel Robbins]

Because it feels good. And it's almost like your brain's like, oh, mind numbing. Yes, because that almost feels like a flow state though, doesn't it? Right.

[Heather Berlin]

But it's not because you're bombarding. You're just giving it more information. More information. So I often say, like our brains are, you know, these cavemen brains in a modern world. And we're not meant for all this stimulation all the time. I would say, you know, every letting go is different for everyone. I call it the cold tea test. Whatever your task you do where you make a cup of tea, suddenly you look, it's cold.

[Mel Robbins]

Oh my God, I love that. Wait, the cold tea test.

[Heather Berlin]

Yes.

[Mel Robbins]

So if you're doing something and you are in it and you actually forgot about your tea and it went cold.

[Heather Berlin]

That's what I'm saying.

[Mel Robbins]

That's a great rule of thumb.

[Heather Berlin]

That's what I use as a rule of thumb. What do we do? So you could.

[Mel Robbins]

Scrolling on the phone is.

[Heather Berlin]

Makes my teeth. I would say first of all, disconnect from the. You don't want to, you want to stop with the input. You want to get more internal. What's happening inside of you?

[Mel Robbins]

Daydreaming consumption.

[Heather Berlin]

Go for a walk outside. Go take a shower, do something creative. Art, paint, listen to music. Something physical. Some people, you know, rock climbing, used to Rock climb.

[Mel Robbins]

Oh, I get that. It looks like you just came down off a wall. He always looks that way. I love that.

[Heather Berlin]

That's his look. That's his fashion style. But it's.

[Mel Robbins]

I'm gonna go buy that shirt. I'm gonn Google reverse search that sucker and buy it for my husband.

[Heather Berlin]

But it's really like anything. Some people it's physical activity. Some people, it's art, creating, writing. You know, when you're in that moment, you're in the flow. You lose your sense of self and time and place, and it's almost like a muscle. You're exercising a different brain system. Right. You have like a kind of default mode system. You have the executive control. And I think a lot of people are overly in that executive control where the prefrontal cortex turned up. You get rumination and anxiety and worry, and you're thinking about everything on your list. And the opposite is this sort of daydreaming, meditation, walking.

[Mel Robbins]

It makes sense.

[Christoph Koch]

Or being fully engaged with a task, whether it's reading or coding. It used to be, you know, for some people, if you write computer code, doing math can't be too easy, can't be too difficult, and you can totally lose yourself. You can leave, you know, Planet Ego.

[Heather Berlin]

And then also we have psychedelics, which is a quick, you know, way to get there. But I'm not recommending drugs for everyone. But that's just another avenue which with people can get to this place and we can actually see it. You know, there's a lot of neuroimaging studies where the filter system kind of. It's kind of turned down.

[Mel Robbins]

Yeah.

[Heather Berlin]

So anything goes. And it allows for these novel associations between ideas and things from the unconscious can come up. So too much control isn't good. First of all, this book, I mean, I think it sold like 7 million copies in nine months. Why do you think so many people were just drawn to this?

[Mel Robbins]

And I think there's kind of, I don't know, four key reasons. Number one is the timing.

[Christoph Koch]

This pandemic.

[Mel Robbins]

Well, we're living in a moment where the world feels like it's spinning off its axis and the average person feels completely overwhelmed and stressed out and that everything out there, whether it's AI coming for your job or adult kids who are struggling or the bills that are piling up, or just the overwhelming amount of things to do, everybody feels this massive loss of control. And fundamentally, the let them theory is a modern version of ancient wisdom. It's four words. Let them and let me. That help you apply Stoicism, serenity, Viktor Frankl's seminal work, the Man's Search for Meaning, Detachment theory, radical acceptance, you name it. In a moment in modern life where you are stressed and burnt out and it helps you feel a sense of control. That's number one. So it is a timely message. The second reason why is it's simple. When you're already stressed out, you're not going to remember something intellectual. This is a tool. If I'm angry about something or hurt by something or annoyed by something, I can't remember anything complicated. But you can remember, let them. And that brings me to the third reason it works. It alleviates the number one cause of your stress, which is other people. They're super annoying. You can't change them. They have huge expectations.

[Heather Berlin]

Jerry Seinfeld, oh, my God. He's like people.

[Mel Robbins]

Oh, my God. The close talkers, the slow walkers, the traffic, the people that are very slow in the checkout line, you got somewhere to be, what the heck? And the people that annoy you the most are your family. Because one of the reasons we have family is it teaches you how to love people you hate sometimes. And you're never gonna change these people. And so why on earth are we allowing something that you can't change? Annoying behavior, inconsiderate strangers, the headlines that are written to make you pay attention, like, why would you allow that? To drain your life force, to steal your attention. You don't have to. And so when people start reading this book, or they literally. You don't even have to buy the book, you can use these four words for free right now, the next time you're stressed out, somebody sends a notification for a video conference call at 5 o' clock on a Friday. What kind of an idiot loser who has no life is doing that to the rest of us, right? But you need the job because you gotta pay your bills. So let them. I'm just gonna make a cocktail and turn off the screen, you know, and start my psychedelic trip.

[Heather Berlin]

While I drop in while you're having

[Mel Robbins]

your dumb meeting, right? And I'm running AI to take my notes for me. And then I'm going to say, bye, everybody, have a great weekend. That's the let me part. So you start to recognize that life right now is a death by a thousand cuts. But it doesn't have to be. It doesn't have to be. And so when you start to go, oh, let them. Oh, let them. Let. Oh, my mom's disappointed, let her be disappointed. She's an adult. She'll get over it. Oh, let them. My friend's bummed that I can't come out to a birthday party for their 37th birthday where I'm split the check with 14 people and talk to people I don't want to see right now. Let them be disappointed. I've had a busy week. Let me take care of myself and let me ask my friend if I can take them out to a yoga class this weekend so we can have some one on one time. And when you start to practice these little boundaries between your habit of allowing it all in, your habit of judging other people and getting pissed off at them, or frustrated, your habit of trying to please everybody only to make yourself miserable, that's the let them part. The let me part is what you say, now that you've taken your power back, now you get to choose what you do with it. That's how you take responsibility for your experience in life. And the word responsibility is the ability to. To respond to what's happening. And that's where your power is, what you think, what you do or don't do, and what you do with the emotions. And the fourth reason, and this is the big reason, as you're reading, you're like, my mother needs this book because I'm the villain in this book. I'm the control freak. I'm the annoying person. I don't want to be. Everybody is either that person or, or you know, somebody who is. And this is the most beautiful part of the book. People buy the book because when you say let them, there's an attitude and superiority. Like when you're. When you start saying let them with your family and you notice that your siblings aren't helping with your aging parents, or you notice that your siblings don't make an effort first you're gonna be like, ugh, let them. Let my sister be like that. And you feel superior. Which I think is one of the secrets to why the detachment from the emotion works this little, like, jolt. And that's why people love it, because you feel better than the idiot that just cut you off in traffic. But then as you start to sit in the radical acceptance of the state of your relationships, or the fact that your boss is disrespectful, or that you're in a relationship with somebody who doesn't care about you or your values no longer align, it's not that you're allowing anything to happen. It's that you're finally forcing yourself to recognize what's happening. What happens is this space opens up where I had to Confront how judgmental I was. There was a lot of opinions and emotion and intensity and stress that I was bringing to my relationships.

[Christoph Koch]

Because I believe I knew somehow. To run his prom.

[Mel Robbins]

Correct? Yes. You know, because I believed I knew best. And in a relationship, you can either have connection or you can be right. And when you start to create this space where you're teaching yourself to truly learn how to love and accept people as they are and as they're not, that's what love is. Can you accept somebody as they are and as they're not without holding your opinion and your judgment over their head? And I had never done that. I had never done that. And so learning how to basically just let my husband be my husband, let my mom be my mom, let my dad be my dad, let my daughter be who she is, let her have her big feelings, let her be selfish, let her not. Let her this, Let her that. Learning how to give people the space to have the dignity of their own experience is a completely different way to love somebody and hold space for them. And it's a way for you to have a deeper connection. Because when people feel accepted, they soften and they move toward you. And when people. When you have the conversation you were talking about, like, it really worries me, how do you feel about your health? Do you worry about how this might impact how many years you're gonna have? You know, do you worry about, like, how stressed out you are? Is there anything I can do when you have that? And then you let them. If you give them three to six months, something surprising happens as you're no longer judging and you show up with more grace and compassion. They have to deal with themselves. Because one of the biggest reasons why people don't change is because they're pouring so much energy in resisting your push to change. It's how they stay in control themselves. Because if my husband all of a sudden starts exercising now, he has to admit that I'm right, and he loses control of himself.

[Christoph Koch]

Well, but there may also come a point in time when you realize this person doesn't have the power to change for whatever reason. And then you have to decide, am I okay living with that? Or this is just beyond the pale for me.

[Mel Robbins]

Yes, you do. And that is a deeply personal decision. And what happens in that moment is you now let them. People are who they are. I don't think people are confusing at all. I think we confuse ourselves because we're trying to explain away behavior, and we're holding onto the hope and the opinion that they should change. If you just look at people's behavior as very black and white, they tell you exactly who they are.

[Heather Berlin]

We end each show with asking a perception box question.

[Mel Robbins]

Okay.

[Heather Berlin]

And we don't know what it's going to be. One of us asks it. This week, Kristoff is going to be asking us the question, what do you

[Christoph Koch]

imagine other people imagine about you?

[Heather Berlin]

Oh, God. That's a very difficult question. I think on the surface, I think people think a lot of times because I do so many things and, and, you know, I'm involved in a lot of things, that I have it all together.

[Christoph Koch]

That you're in control.

[Heather Berlin]

That I'm in control. And the truth is, like you were saying, I am, you know, often feeling out of control and feeling like I'm just barely keeping things, you know, going in the train where I have two small children. I'm, you know, that I'm. I'm going through a divorce. I have a clinical practice and research and science communication, and it's a lot. I just barely have it together. But don't worry, it's fine. Everything's fine. Today? Yes, today. What about you?

[Mel Robbins]

This is gonna sound really weird. I don't often think about what other people think about me.

[Christoph Koch]

That is exactly

[Heather Berlin]

Sam. But I got it wrong.

[Mel Robbins]

But that's actually new. I was consumed for my entire life with what other people thought. I made decisions based on what would make them happy, what I thought would make people think a certain thing, all of which is a gigantic illusion. And it also makes you feel out of control because you've put the source of your value as a person and others and the let them theory and saying let them and let me every single day and parsing through the moments of my life where I'm about to try to change or control somebody else or I'm allowing the headlines or other things to just freak me out. And that's not to say there aren't important things in this world that need our attention and need our work and important things that need to change for the better. It is this belief that I have to protect my time and energy so. So that I can do the work to make things better. Learning using let them and let me has been like a reordering of my experience as a human being because I am very clear about who I am. And when you know that you are doing the best that you can and you're making decisions based on your values and you clean up the messes that you make and your intent is kindhearted, you can lay your head on the pillow at night and feel like you did an okay job today. And bringing my personal value back to the way I think about things, the things I do or don't do, the things I say yes or no to, and having that aligned with the kind of person I want to be, it is extraordinary. You don't really think about what other people think about you at all because you know exactly who you are.

[Christoph Koch]

I couldn't agree more. Maybe it's a nerdy thing.

[Heather Berlin]

I got it wrong, Demi.

[Christoph Koch]

Maybe it's a nerdy first.

[Mel Robbins]

You got it wrong because it's your perspective.

[Heather Berlin]

What about people pleasing? You know, not. That's. I think a big one, too, is you don't have to please everybody. It's okay to say no.

[Mel Robbins]

Well, here's the thing about people pleasing that blew my mind for me personally and made me really clean this up. People pleasers love the framing that you're weak or you're a doormat or you're being stepped on. I want you to consider that if you struggle with pleasing other people and making everybody happy, you're actually very manipulative. And the reason why I say that is because even though it's an adaptive strategy from childhood, that's hardwired and we can get into all of that, you are doing whatever it takes to make sure people like you. That means you're trying to manipulate what people think big time, Big time.

[Heather Berlin]

Right.

[Mel Robbins]

And there's a good perception, perspective shift because you've been conditioned to believe that people pleasing is this weak, meek, doormat thing. Oh, no, no, no, no. You do it subconsciously or consciously because you want to control what people think about you. That's a form of manipulation. And so when you start to say, let them, let them be mad at me. Let them be upset, Let them be frustrated, Let them hate me, Let them misunderstand me. Now you're drawing a boundary between that adaptive behavior and you're recognizing your controlling nature, even if it comes from insecurity.

[Heather Berlin]

That's great.

[Christoph Koch]

So I never had this need to please other people.

[Mel Robbins]

That doesn't surprise you?

[Christoph Koch]

And I wonder, well, does it have to be?

[Mel Robbins]

Can we turn that into a shot for the rest of us?

[Christoph Koch]

Well, it may come with drawbacks, because I feel it comes with sort of being slightly on the spectrum. If you're on the spectrum, you simply, you know, you understand less about complicated social interactions. And so to a first order, you simply care less. I wanted to do things, and I didn't care that much what other people thought about.

[Mel Robbins]

Well, I think There's a difference. There's a difference between caring about what people think. Right. And their opinions and caring deeply about the unintended impact that something may have on somebody. Do you see what I mean? Like, because you strike me as the kind of person that doesn't really care about other people's opinions, but if you did something that really hurt someone, you would be the first to apologize. So I just want to draw that distinction because even though you're the one that said, you know, I wonder if it's something where you're slightly on the spectrum and you don't pick up on the social cues and you're not really, you're thinking about other things. That may be true, but I still believe that the kind hearted part of you cares about the impact that somebody else's opinion isn't gonna stop you from doing what you wanna do or saying what you wanna say. Which is an incredible strength and quality.

[Heather Berlin]

It's very empowering. I'm gonna end with, we have this little game. It's a very quick little game, okay. It's called let them or step in.

[Mel Robbins]

Oh, okay.

[Heather Berlin]

So I'm gonna give a couple of scenarios and you just either say let them or step in. So the first one is if your friend cancels on you for the third time in a row, let them or step in. Let them, let them, let them.

[Mel Robbins]

Like let them. Because let me just take a step back. I have no idea what's going on.

[Heather Berlin]

Okay.

[Mel Robbins]

I don't know like what's happening in their life. And I also feel like we need to be more flexible with our friends. People have a lot going on right now.

[Heather Berlin]

I agree.

[Mel Robbins]

And if they cancel, it means they've got something going on and I get to choose whether I take it personally. Now here's the thing. This is all data. I can continue to invite this person or I could start inviting other people. Doesn't mean I have to cut this person out of my life. I could also, if I'm starting to pick up on a Spidey sense that something's going on, I could write and say, no problem at all. I'm sure you have a lot going on. And by the way, if there's something going on and you need support in some way because this is now the third time that life has swept you aside. I'm just a little worried about you and I want you to know I'm here.

[Heather Berlin]

Yeah, that's great. That's it. That's wonderful.

[Christoph Koch]

You update your priors in Bayesian language.

[Heather Berlin]

Yes, yes. Yes. You update your priors. It's a Bayesian analysis.

[Mel Robbins]

I don't even know what Bayesian means.

[Heather Berlin]

Your partner still hasn't taken out the trash after three reminders.

[Mel Robbins]

Did Chris call you and tell you to ask?

[Heather Berlin]

We have a little. Yeah, we had a little back and forth.

[Mel Robbins]

So you let them. Because saying let them helps you diffuse your own emotion. Because the mistake that we make if you're a jerk like me is you take a photo of the trash and then you text it and say, thanks a lot. I thought I asked you about this.

[Heather Berlin]

Oh, my God.

[Mel Robbins]

Right? And that's your emotions. And so you let them. And then you remind yourself maybe they meant to and they forgot. This is me. I forgot.

[Heather Berlin]

Okay, ready? Now we're gonna do three rapid fire ones.

[Mel Robbins]

Okay?

[Heather Berlin]

Okay. Your co worker takes credit for your idea at work.

[Mel Robbins]

Let them do it. And then let me say something about it.

[Heather Berlin]

Okay. You get a negative comment on your Instagram.

[Mel Robbins]

Let them. Because let me remind myself that anybody that's spending time commenting on social media to somebody that they've never met needs

[Heather Berlin]

hobbies and it's not worth your time.

[Mel Robbins]

Yes. Why would I take advice from somebody like that? Doesn't even know me.

[Heather Berlin]

Your daughter, who's here with us, wants to dye her hair green just before a big family wedding.

[Mel Robbins]

Let her, let her, let her, let her. And let me remind everybody.

[Christoph Koch]

You heard that.

[Mel Robbins]

Let me remind everybody. Those family photos where one of your kids in that phase, you're like, you will cherish those more than anything. Amen. Our son, when he died, his hair blew. Shout out. Ninja. Like, I love those photos. I love the phases where he was wearing the soft pants that came up to here. Cause he went to, like, I let them, let them, let them. This is the beauty of life.

[Heather Berlin]

I love it.

[Mel Robbins]

Not to make it look perfect, but to let people live.

[Heather Berlin]

I went through a phase when I was 18 where I shaved my head and had a nose ring. It was not a great look, but now my mom loves showing. You know, my new boyfriend, my look.

[Mel Robbins]

I bet you have a great noggin. It's nice and round.

[Heather Berlin]

It was a Shani o' Connor kind of thing.

[Mel Robbins]

I bet you got big eyes and a beautiful smile. You could pull that off.

[Heather Berlin]

Thank you. So your mom gives you unsolicited advice yet again.

[Mel Robbins]

Okay, let her. Let her. Because she loves you. And let me. There's a thing about this, like, why are you getting agitated about it? And if it's a hot trigger thing, like, you haven't met anybody. Are you having Kids, then let me have a conversation when I am calm and when she hasn't said it and tell her the truth. I'm so sad it's not happening. Mom or Mom. I'm not choosing to have children. And I want to honor the fact that you are grieving, that you have the right to have a vision for your life that included grandchildren. That is yours. I can't take that away from you in terms of your right to grieve something you thought would happen. And that doesn't mean it's the right decision for me. And so we gotta figure out how to hold space for each other. Me for your pain, for how you thought life would be, and you for honoring that. This is my life, and I need to be able to live it in a way that makes me happy and fulfilled. And, you know, if that means, mom, that you've gotta, you know, be a wonderful great aunt to your sister's grandchildren or, you know, you need to get involved in the community to fill this for you. I realize it's not the same, but I want to see your perspective, and I am asking that you understand mine. Like, we are so quick to want people to conform to us that we don't stop and develop the skill of understanding that people are allowed to have their feelings.

[Christoph Koch]

That's a tough one. It's a good one. Yeah, it's a tough one.

[Heather Berlin]

Acceptance. Radical acceptance.

[Christoph Koch]

Radical acceptance.

[Heather Berlin]

I love it. It's been such a pleasure to have you here. Thank you so much.

[Mel Robbins]

Oh, so great to meet you, too. What a great duo you two are.

[Christoph Koch]

Thank you.

[Mel Robbins]

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

[Heather Berlin]

Thank you so much.

[Mel Robbins]

Appreciate it.

[Christoph Koch]

Thank you, Mel.

[Mel Robbins]

You're welcome.

[Christoph Koch]

Thanks for coming.

[Heather Berlin]

Thanks again to our guest, Mel Robbins. And if you'd like to learn more about your own Perception Box, spend some time this week answering the same Perception Box question that we asked our guests. And check out our other questions on our website@ unlikelycollaborators.com you can also subscribe to our YouTube channel and watch the show or listen wherever you get your podcasts. This has been Science of Perception Box, created by unlikely collaborators in partnership with Pod People. I'm Dr. Heather Brown Berlin.

[Christoph Koch]

And I'm Dr. Christoph Koch. Thank you.