Loading summary
Transcript175 lines
- [00:08]
Wendy Zuckerman
Hi, I'm Wendy Zuckerman and you're listening to Science versus Today on the show, how do we solve the climate crisis? Can we do it? A couple of weeks ago, we had an episode about climate change tipping points that ended a little sadly. The climate's not doing well. It's hot, there's been fires, there's been floods, and we may have even crossed some rather scary climate tipping points. But I did tell you that there was hope and that's what this episode is hopefully about. We asked for your questions, what you want to know when it comes to solving the climate crisis, we heard from hundreds of people all around the globe. Generally, these questions fit into two big batches. One, what can me as a little individual person do for the climate, if anything? And two, what exciting new technologies could help get us out of this mess? So to answer these questions and more, we have our first guest, Dr. Sven Teske. He is the research director at the Institute for Sustainable Futures at the University of Technology, Sydney. And Sven studies how countries and industries can do the seemingly impossible, which is to get off fossil fuels. He has written detailed analysis for more than 50 countries for how they can get to net zero. These are countries like the us, China, India, France and Bangladesh. So welcome to the show, Sven.
- [01:37]
Dr. Sven Teske
Thanks for inviting me.
- [01:39]
Wendy Zuckerman
Our second guest is Wei Su. She is the head of strategy at Monash University's Climate Work centre in Melbourne. ClimateWorks is a climate nonprofit that gives advice to governments and companies about how to reduce their emissions, focusing on Australia, Southeast Asia and the Pacific. And Wei is a self described nerd at heart. So welcome to the family.
- [02:01]
Wei Su
Thanks for having me.
- [02:02]
Wendy Zuckerman
Question number one actually comes from the Science versus team. So when you both think about climate change right now, which song best represents where we're at? I'll give you some options. It's the End of the World as We Know it by R.E.M. cruel Summer by Taylor Swift, We Can Work it out by the Beatles, Sunshine, Lollipops and Rainbows, famously by Leslie Gore. What do you think? Where are we at with the clamor right now?
- [02:33]
Wei Su
We can work it out.
- [02:34]
Wendy Zuckerman
We can work it out.
- [02:36]
Dr. Sven Teske
I actually agree.
- [02:37]
Wendy Zuckerman
Okay. I mean, why do you say that?
- [02:40]
Wei Su
There's actually some really simple steps if you distil it down to what can be done. And these steps are one of we'll.
- [02:48]
Wendy Zuckerman
Have to save them for after the break. We don't do a spoiler alert there. Now, Sven, as someone who's been in this, in the climate space for a long time, decades now, what's been the most frustrating thing for you?
- [03:01]
Dr. Sven Teske
Well, I was at COP1, a youth representative, so I'm almost six months.
- [03:07]
Wendy Zuckerman
So you introduce people who don't know what's COP COP1?
- [03:10]
Dr. Sven Teske
The climate negotiations. This started in Berlin in 1995.
- [03:17]
Wendy Zuckerman
And you were a little Greta Thunberg, were you?
- [03:20]
Dr. Sven Teske
Yeah, no, I was about, yeah, it was my late 20s. So the first 10 years of those climate negotiations we were discussing, do we actually have climate change? The next 10 years was, ah, yeah, we might have it, but it's not us. And then the last 10 is, okay, we have climate change and it is us. What can we do? And we continue to go through the same loops of conversation. It's like an endless spiral, never actually continues. So we really need to move on and focus on what works. And we actually know what works.
- [03:59]
Wendy Zuckerman
So for you, maybe the song of this moment is Lizzo. It's about damn time.
- [04:04]
Dr. Sven Teske
Groundhog Day.
- [04:05]
Wendy Zuckerman
Groundhog Day. Of Groundhog Day. All right, well, with all of that and a bit of hope and a bit of frustration, which sounds right for the time that we're in after the break, we're going to jump into listener questions. This episode of Science Versus is brought to you by Ford. There are few pickups more iconic than the F150, and the 2024 F150 Lightning truck is no exception. With an EPA estimated range of 320 miles with the available extended range battery, it's the only EV that's an F150. Visit Ford.com to learn more. Excludes Platinum models. EPA Estimated Driving Range based on full charge. Actual driving range varies with conditions such as external environment, vehicle use, vehicle maintenance, high voltage battery, age and state of health. There's no better feeling than a personal win. And the State Farm personal price plan can help you do just that. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can bundle and save with a personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state. Welcome back. All right, let's jump in and find out how we can solve the climate crisis. To kick us off, Sven, let's just set the scene. So Sarah Rose in a bubble on Instagram wants to know who creates the biggest carbon footprint.
- [05:41]
Dr. Sven Teske
If you look at the historical footprint, it's the US So if you look.
- [05:46]
Wendy Zuckerman
At the so historical is how far are we going back here between like.
- [05:52]
Dr. Sven Teske
1800 when it started. So the industrialization started until 1920 19. So that's sort of the carbon emissions. During that period there were 450 gigatons of CO2 from the US and about 280 from the, from China. Oh wow.
- [06:12]
Wendy Zuckerman
So the US is ahead by a mile.
- [06:15]
Dr. Sven Teske
Yeah. If we look at the emissions now, China is by far the largest emitter. One third of all emissions globally energy related come from China while having 18% of the population.
- [06:28]
Wendy Zuckerman
So our next question is from sassybitchmaddy on Instagram. And the question is, I hear all the time that our individual choices won't have enough of an impact on climate change because of big corporations and government emissions. Is there anything we should be doing in our day to day that will actually make a meaningful difference in, in the face of climate change? Wei, what do you think?
- [06:49]
Wei Su
Definitely. Even if we just start within our own homes, for example, if you think about where we use energy and where we create emissions, just going about our day to day lives. So when we cook, when we heat, when we cool, when we drive our cars to get from one place to another, all of that uses energy and therefore produces emissions. And there are some simple steps that anyone today can take which will actually have a significant impact. And I'll talk through that a little bit. But if we start with just thinking about energy efficiency or put another way, minimizing wastage having, on a very basic.
- [07:28]
Wendy Zuckerman
Level, having a window open while your heater is on.
- [07:31]
Wei Su
Yeah. Or like just putting on a jumper before you think about putting the heater on, that requires energy.
- [07:35]
Wendy Zuckerman
Does any of that actually make a difference? If you, if you add it up? If everyone in America put on a jumper instead of putting on their heating, would it matter?
- [07:42]
Wei Su
But everything needs to happen because if everyone thinks that it's not going to matter, then it's not going to happen. So that's one way to see it. But the energy efficiency side of things also has the additional benefit of actually reducing people's energy bills. And then there's other things that you can do as well around shifting away from relying on fossil fuels. So for example, rooftop solar PVs now are like, people walk down the street and they see lots of it on their home or on other people's homes or on your own homes.
- [08:11]
Wendy Zuckerman
Surveys find that a lot of people think that recycling is one of the best things that they can do to reduce their carbon footprint. So when comes to recycling, moustacheballerina on Instagram wants to know how exactly does it help? How much of an impact does it make on climate change? And I Actually thought recycling doesn't do anything for climate change. So I'm very interested in this.
- [08:34]
Wei Su
So recycling in itself, in principle will actually have an impact on emissions because it avoids the extraction of raw materials. So, for example, plastics being everything produce plastic.
- [08:47]
Dr. Sven Teske
You produce fabrics from a large extent out of oil.
- [08:51]
Wei Su
They're petroleum based. By recycling plastics, it means that you avoid going upstream in the process to actually have to, for lack of a better term, dig. So digging things out of ground requires energy, which has an emissions impact. So there is that element in terms of avoiding that energy and emissions that goes into the production of raw materials. However, it can vary the amount of like sort of the emissions benefit from recycling different materials can vary.
- [09:20]
Dr. Sven Teske
The good news on steel, but also aluminum, is you can recycle it endlessly. You can't recycle plastic endlessly because it won't work. But steel and aluminium, you can recycle actually almost endlessly.
- [09:34]
Wendy Zuckerman
But people are recycling yogurt tubs, milk bottles. Is the plastic from that making any difference?
- [09:40]
Dr. Sven Teske
Everything makes a difference, but I mean.
- [09:43]
Wendy Zuckerman
That'S the answer for no. So if both of you could snap your fingers and everyone on the planet would give up one thing for climate, what would it be? Options could include giving up meat, never flying in a plane again, never driving a gas car again, not having children.
- [10:05]
Dr. Sven Teske
I think riding a bicycle or walking. And then downsize your car. I mean, you don't really need a very, very, very large car to move from A to B. I think a smaller car, electric vehicle is also can do the same job.
- [10:22]
Wendy Zuckerman
Okay, okay. Are those the things? Eating meat is not going vegan is not on either of your list. Are both of you big burger fans?
- [10:30]
Dr. Sven Teske
I think it's very important. I mean, for me, to be perfectly honest, I'm an engineer and focus on what I know.
- [10:37]
Wei Su
So methane that comes out from cows, essentially. These emissions, they are quite large and actually quite difficult to address as well for a couple of reasons. They are very fragmented.
- [10:49]
Wendy Zuckerman
What do you mean by fragmented? Like each. It comes out of each cow.
- [10:52]
Wei Su
Exactly. So in terms of needing to capture it, like, it's almost an impossible task logistically.
- [10:58]
Wendy Zuckerman
Right. What do you put like a muzzle on every cow just from their burps?
- [11:01]
Wei Su
Right, Exactly.
- [11:02]
Wendy Zuckerman
Pivot onto EVs. Electric vehicles. We had a lot of questions about these. So Jake on TikTok wants to know, are electric vehicles making any impact at all? Does the energy they use from charging and being built still come from fossil fuels? Wait, you want to take this one?
- [11:20]
Wei Su
So regardless of the amount of fossil Fuels that are in the electricity grid. It is actually still better to drive an electric vehicle than it is to drive a petrol vehicle. And the simplest reason there is because petrol cars are simply very inefficient in converting petrol into the energy that is required to move that chunk of metal along the road. And electric motors are actually a lot more efficient at doing that.
- [11:47]
Dr. Sven Teske
An average combustion engine has an efficiency of about 50%, usually less.
- [11:54]
Wendy Zuckerman
Yeah.
- [11:54]
Dr. Sven Teske
So you lose at least half of the petrol you put in your tank.
- [12:00]
Wendy Zuckerman
Wow.
- [12:01]
Dr. Sven Teske
And then it sort of, if you then calculate the amount of energy you actually get on the wheels, sort of when the rubber hits the road, you are down to like 20%. So.
- [12:16]
Wendy Zuckerman
Wow. So much wasted energy. It's a lot of average car in your average gas guzzling car.
- [12:21]
Dr. Sven Teske
Yes.
- [12:22]
Wendy Zuckerman
Wow. And EVs, what's the. How efficient are they? Much more efficient.
- [12:26]
Dr. Sven Teske
Electric engines have an efficiency of about 90%, 90, 95%. The extreme growth of electric vehicles in China, first time ever, led to a reduction of the oil demand. So we actually see that electric vehicles cut into oil demand. Okay, it's tiny, but it starts, it can grow.
- [12:49]
Wei Su
Choosing to buy an electric vehicle, for example, when you're replacing your petrol car, that sends a strong signal to carmakers around the world that people want electric vehicles. And then they will go off and invest in more technologies that are around electric vehicles or the infrastructure to charge electric vehicles. So while, you know, individually maybe my decision to buy one car is not going to make a difference, but collectively it can make a difference.
- [13:15]
Wendy Zuckerman
And so with, with electric vehicles though, there has been a lot of concern around how we're getting the materials used to make the batteries. We're trying to get these materials like cobalt and lithium. And people say that the way that we do it now is really harmful for the planet. We got a couple of questions about this, probably because there's been a lot of headlines like this one, why surging sales of large electric vehicles raise environmental red flags. Is this actually a problem that we need to fix?
- [13:42]
Dr. Sven Teske
I think yes, we need to fix it. But I have to say we also have options to avoid some materials. So, for example, cobalt is technically not needed for batteries anymore. So we can actually use battery. We can build batteries that don't need cobalt. We can phase out cobalt from batteries and we should. Lithium is an element which is really, really almost everywhere. So we're not running a lot of lithium.
- [14:15]
Wendy Zuckerman
That's because they're called rare earth minerals. They really need a brand update.
- [14:19]
Dr. Sven Teske
I mean, lithium is not a rare ear Other rare earth metals. And also if you look at rare earth, what is it used for? Electronics to a large extent, mobile phones and all. Every single electric motor or generator needs that. No matter if it's a wind turbine, a gas, a coal power plant, they all have the same metals in there. Unfortunately we focus right now the debate about like wind turbines using magnets with rare earth. But the gas power plant next door uses exactly the same and you're.
- [14:58]
Wendy Zuckerman
And the half the electronic stuff in your home is also using these minerals.
- [15:03]
Wei Su
Yes. The laptops are now like an end of.
- [15:06]
Dr. Sven Teske
Not my laptop.
- [15:07]
Wendy Zuckerman
Come on now. Also using these minerals. Interesting. So why the big blow up around renewables?
- [15:14]
Dr. Sven Teske
I mean when I started sort of promoting renewables for solutions, it was very expensive. There was like it was $10 per kilowatt hour.
- [15:25]
Wendy Zuckerman
And then how many years ago was this?
- [15:27]
Dr. Sven Teske
That was 30 years ago. We are now at 4 cents or 3 cents. So the argument against renewables is not the price anymore because it's the cheapest form of electricity generation. You can't do it cheaper than solar and wind, full stop. There's no other technology and it's really cheap. So the only argument if you are an incumbent company like a coal or gas power plant is to argue, to find arguments against them and the medal is won.
- [15:57]
Wendy Zuckerman
Interesting. Just broadly speaking, how do you feel about this idea that the individual that we can make a change, little old me can make a change.
- [16:07]
Wei Su
So while a lot of emissions are controlled and influenced by governments or big corporates, consumers or voters have a huge influence over the actions and decisions that corporates and governments make.
- [16:22]
Dr. Sven Teske
I mean it's not a yes or no, of course you need to change, but maybe I'm too long around to see that it doesn't work that way. We won't solve the climate crisis with voluntary measures. We need policy and we need specific policy to implement specific technologies and to phase out others. Without that we won't be able to do it. So it's nice if we can do something in our own household, but it will be only a very, very, very small fraction of what we actually need to do. But you know Don, I mean, I would say the biggest difference, first and foremost it is vote for politicians who actually implement the policy. We need to change our economic system to decarbonize our energy system.
- [17:21]
Wendy Zuckerman
I feel like where you've both headed is the biggest things we can do is if you are buying a new car, go ev. If you can do without a car, even better. And then voting really. And I guess keeping your home as energy efficient as possible.
- [17:39]
Dr. Sven Teske
It is important to actually also change your diet and eat less meat. Maybe not totally give it up, but really eat less. That's, I think, the first good step.
- [17:50]
Wei Su
Remember, during the Paris agreement, the world agreed to net zero. You can't get to zero if there's still bids left.
- [17:58]
Wendy Zuckerman
Yes, we're going to have a quick break and after that we'll find out if carbon offsets are the biggest climate scams. This episode is brought to you by Ford. I'm here with our editor and electric vehicle owner, Blythe. Yes, I'm recording inside my Ford F150 Lightning truck to chat about the Ford Power Promise. What's that? It is Ford's commitment to getting electric vehicle drivers started with confidence. When you buy or lease one of their electric vehicles, you get a complimentary home charger and standard installation. Wow, that's pretty impressive. Which models are included? The Ford Mustang Mach E F150 Lightning and E transit cargo van. You can visit FordPowerpromise.com to learn more. Must purchase or lease a new Ford F150 Lightning Mustang Mach E or E Transit cargo van vehicle from a participating ford dealer between October 1, 2024 and January 2, 2025 to be eligible to receive a one complimentary Ford charge Station Pro Ford Charger model may vary based on availability with complimentary home installation or B2000 bonus cash. No trade in required offer not available to fleet or commercial customers. Complimentary home installation must be performed through qmerit Electrification LLC at a residential location with a dedicated electrical meter. Restrictions may apply based on structural and electrical limitations. Installation must be completed by June 30, 2025 for all offers. Must take retail delivery from an authorised Ford dealer's stock by January 2, 2025. See your Ford dealer for details and terms.
- [19:52]
Wei Su
This episode is brought to you by Etsy. Oh, hear that?
- [19:56]
Wendy Zuckerman
Okay, thank you.
- [19:58]
Wei Su
Etsy knows these aren't the sounds of holiday gifting. Well, not the ones you're hoping for. You want squeals of delight, happy tears? How did you. And spontaneously written songs of joy.
- [20:12]
Wendy Zuckerman
I am so happy.
- [20:15]
Dr. Sven Teske
Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
- [20:16]
Wendy Zuckerman
Oh yeah.
- [20:17]
Wei Su
Um, okay, the song needs a bit of work, but anyway, to get those reactions, make sure everyone on your list feels heard with handmade, handpicked and designed gifts from small shops on Etsy. Gifts like personalized jewelry, custom artwork, cozy style items, vintage pieces and home decor to celebrate all of your favorite people and their specific kind of special. For original gifts that say I get you, Etsy has it this Episode is.
- [20:46]
Wendy Zuckerman
Brought to you by Netflix.
- [20:47]
Wei Su
From the co director of Shrek and the visionary behind Toy Story comes Spellbound, a magical new animated adventure starring Rachel Zegler, John Lithgow, Jennifer Lewis, Nathan Lane and Titus Burgess. With Javier Bardem and Nicole Kidman. When a powerful spell turns her parents into monsters, Princess Ellian must journey into the wild to reverse the curse before it's too late. Watch Spellbound only on Netflix November 22nd.
- [21:13]
Dr. Sven Teske
Way to eat a tea. You're listening to an ad for PC Game Pass. Want new games on day one, like Indiana Jones and the Great Circle? How about living out your Sims life with EA Play? We Talking high quality PC games all for one low monthly price? We got you. Learn more at Xbox.com PC Game Pass or click the banner Indiana Jones and the Great Circle. Available December 9, 2024. Game catalog varies by region and over time. Okay, that's the ad. You can go back to doing whatever you were doing now.
- [21:44]
Wendy Zuckerman
Welcome back. Let's jump back in. This next one is a question that I've been thinking about a lot. It comes from Music 2742 on TikTok. And they ask, when you look at carbon offsets, are these systems actually working? So Sven, did you pay to offset your flight today?
- [22:06]
Dr. Sven Teske
It's a standard for our university to do that.
- [22:09]
Wendy Zuckerman
Is it a waste of money? Should they have done it?
- [22:12]
Dr. Sven Teske
It definitely serves a feel good factor.
- [22:15]
Wendy Zuckerman
Feel good, feel good. Well, let's go back a hot minute. When you do tick that box to say that you will pay an extra $8 to offset your flight. What is actually going on? How does carbon offsetting work?
- [22:31]
Dr. Sven Teske
I would say let's put it first in a positive way. The idea was actually quite good, saying, okay, we have some processes where we can't reduce the emission. Right now we have another process, this old ancient machine, get sort of CO2 out of the air. It's called a tree. And we plant them and then it sort of levels out. In theory, that's a, that's a good idea.
- [22:59]
Wendy Zuckerman
So what, what it's doing basically is your, your flight is going to emit just as many emissions as it always would.
- [23:07]
Dr. Sven Teske
Yeah.
- [23:08]
Wendy Zuckerman
But instead what they're going to do is plant trees somewhere else to that somehow they've calculated how much tree, how much that tree is going to remove carbon from the atmosphere. And they're like, that's about right.
- [23:21]
Dr. Sven Teske
That's probably the first problem because in the tree, when you plant it will not take any CO2 out of the air.
- [23:29]
Wendy Zuckerman
Right. When you put a seed in it's not going to do anything. It needs to get leaves first. Right.
- [23:33]
Dr. Sven Teske
Because 10, 15 years. So after 10, 15 years you start to actually see something and it needs.
- [23:39]
Wei Su
To survive for 10, 15 years.
- [23:41]
Dr. Sven Teske
Let's hope it will not burn down in the last forest fires or bushfires in Australia.
- [23:45]
Wendy Zuckerman
Yes. Because there have been several now instances. Right. Of areas of huge swathes of forest that have been set aside for carbon offsetting. And now they burnt and then when they burn, they then emit carbon into the atmosphere.
- [24:00]
Dr. Sven Teske
Yeah, I mean they can. They emit the same amount of CO2 they actually capture before. Obviously there are other forms of offsets. For example, you invest in solar equipment in African country where they would usually maybe burn kerosene for light.
- [24:22]
Wei Su
But fundamentally offsetting is about the fact that I can't reduce the emissions by virtue of taking a plane or a flight, but I'm paying someone else to do it elsewhere. Now that can be anywhere. The challenge there is one. It's remote, it happens elsewhere. So there is what we call a measurement and verification problem.
- [24:45]
Wendy Zuckerman
I don't know. It's actually happening.
- [24:46]
Wei Su
Exactly, exactly.
- [24:47]
Wendy Zuckerman
Right.
- [24:48]
Wei Su
If it's a tree planting project, what trees are they planting? How long have the trees been there? Are the trees going to survive? And how much carbon is the tree going to sequester? All of those are questions that the payer, in this case myself, don't have readily accessible answers to.
- [25:05]
Wendy Zuckerman
Yes, and so, I mean offsetting. Carbon offsetting has also been blamed for allowing this huge industry of greenwashing to emerge. So for example, there's this huge gas company, a fossil fuel has a goal to be net zero by 2050. And they've said that a big way they're going to do that is through offsets. How can a fossil fuel company be net zero?
- [25:31]
Dr. Sven Teske
That doesn't work. Sorry, that doesn't work on a global scale. If you sell gas, you will have emissions. And with whom do you want to trade? With Mars. So you can't. So you have to actually reduce the fuel emissions, fossil fuel emissions entirely.
- [25:51]
Wendy Zuckerman
Okay, so then let's move to renewables. Canary Exploder on Instagram asks, how good are solar and wind these days? Can we really use it to power a bunch of our energy needs?
- [26:01]
Wei Su
Wei, solar and wind is really good these days. It is already one of the cheapest forms of new electricity generation. If anyone wants to think about building a new power station, solar and wind is the cheapest form of technology.
- [26:17]
Wendy Zuckerman
How did that happen? How did that happen?
- [26:20]
Wei Su
One of the reasons is because of the sheer amount of solar and wind that has been built over the years. So I'm a nerd at heart, as I said. And about 10, 12 years ago, when we first started modeling solar PV as a technology, it was more expensive than things like some energy efficiency options, and it was more expensive than carbon farming, which is essentially tree planting. But today it is one of the cheapest forms of technology in Australia, but also in other parts of the world, I'm sure. And so we are already seeing solar and wind making a huge impact in terms of reducing the emissions that come from powering our homes, some in cases our cars, our industries and our businesses.
- [27:05]
Dr. Sven Teske
When I started my engineering degree, the market, the global market for Solar was about 60 megawatts. Now we build 1,200 megawatts a day. And that is economies of scale.
- [27:23]
Wei Su
The solar panels are modular, so you can actually bring down the cost of producing a solar panel significantly the more you make them. And you can get huge economies of scale by having a factory line that's basically churning out solar panels and get much more efficient and much better and much smarter at doing it. When you, when you do thousands, millions. And the difference between that and a gas or a coal power plant is that they are still going to be tied to needing to pay for the gas or pay for the coal or.
- [27:54]
Wendy Zuckerman
Needing to pay to mine it out of the ground.
- [27:56]
Wei Su
Mine it out of the ground?
- [27:57]
Wendy Zuckerman
Up to a point.
- [27:58]
Wei Su
Well, yes, you can't get that down to zero. Whereas with a solar plant, once you've got the panels in place, most of your cost is upfront and it costs very little to continue maintaining it. You don't put any fuel into running a solar plant.
- [28:12]
Wendy Zuckerman
Fossil fuels, I mean, people are constantly complaining about the gas prices. Why are fossil fuels not getting cheaper?
- [28:18]
Dr. Sven Teske
Because it's not a technology, it's a source. And that's why fossil fuel companies will have a problem and had a problem in the past to actually go to renewables, because that is absolutely not their business. They are digging out resources out of the ground. A solar and wind company is a technology company. They produce technologies and it's a total different business concept.
- [28:42]
Wendy Zuckerman
So in 2023, renewables provided 30% of global electricity for the first time, according to the think tank embarrassment. Also, calculations suggest that this year in Europe, they just hit this big milestone where wind and solar has overtaken fossil fuels for the first time. So in the first half of this year, wind and solar power generated more electricity than fossil fuels in Europe. It's amazing. It's just one more stat In China, clean power made up 35% of China's electricity mixed in 2023, all according to embarrassment.
- [29:19]
Wei Su
China is a big reason solar PV costs have fallen so much.
- [29:23]
Wendy Zuckerman
If we keep taking on renewables at the rate that we are with solar and wind, like, can we hit net zero?
- [29:29]
Wei Su
So, unfortunately, with the emissions that we talked about earlier, so sort of methane emissions from cows or process emissions from cement production being two examples. There are others. Renewables, unfortunately, is not going to be the silver bullet that will address those type of emissions.
- [29:46]
Dr. Sven Teske
Ok, let's put it this way, it's the silver bullet. Bullet for the energy part of the problem.
- [29:50]
Wei Su
Yeah.
- [29:50]
Wendy Zuckerman
And so I feel like part of the climate denial. The journey of climate denialism, let's say, you know, started with. As Sven, you told us at the beginning of the show, started with this. This isn't happening. It's happening, but it's not our problem. Oh, no, it's our problem and it's definitely happening. Oh. But renewables, you know, when the sun's not shining, when the wind isn't blowing, what are we gonna use?
- [30:17]
Dr. Sven Teske
Storage.
- [30:18]
Wei Su
Mm.
- [30:19]
Wendy Zuckerman
What are we going to use? Tell me.
- [30:21]
Wei Su
Batteries.
- [30:22]
Wendy Zuckerman
Batteries. And this is working. This is working. We're doing it. We're doing it.
- [30:25]
Dr. Sven Teske
And I would say the electricity will be dominated by solar and wind in the next 10, 15 years. I mean, most countries will go north of 60%, so that is a relatively clean.
- [30:38]
Wendy Zuckerman
It's so exciting. It's happening.
- [30:39]
Dr. Sven Teske
It's happening just because it's cheaper and it's actually quicker to build. So a coal power plant takes you six, seven, ten years to build. Solar and wind takes you, depending on how long you wait for the construction permit. But once you have that, it's a few months.
- [30:57]
Wei Su
Yeah. So yesterday alone, a record high was set in Australia, where solar generated 64% of electricity.
- [31:06]
Wendy Zuckerman
Wow. So renewables, really exciting. Really exciting. They're going to do a lot of work here in helping us solve the climate crisis. But this does take us to our next question, which comes from Ian in Iowa. It seems like nuclear power might be the silver bullet. It seems like the big thing that's.
- [31:25]
Dr. Sven Teske
Holding it back is the fear of a nuclear meltdown and disposing of the nuclear reactants and whatever's left over when you're done. Am I right about that assumption that.
- [31:40]
Wendy Zuckerman
If we just switched over to nuclear.
- [31:42]
Dr. Sven Teske
We would just kind of fix everything? Or am I missing something bigger here? He's missing something bigger there.
- [31:49]
Wendy Zuckerman
Okay. All right, let's start. You've got to tell us about where you grew up. Because this is very relevant.
- [31:55]
Dr. Sven Teske
It's. Yeah.
- [31:56]
Wendy Zuckerman
Little Sven, what happened to you?
- [31:59]
Dr. Sven Teske
My little Sven? Little Sven was about 18 years old and just moved out with his friend Dieter. And we lived together. And Chernobyl exploded. Chernobyl was only 1700 kilometers from my hometown. And we had nuclear fallout in my hometown. We were not allowed to eat food, vegetables from our garden for two years. So we had to wash our clothes before we enter the apartment. So we basically, we experienced firsthand what it means when a nuclear reactor actually blows up. At that time, I was an offset printer. I was a tradie. I decided to study engineering, to study renewable engineering, to actually provide a solution.
- [32:54]
Wendy Zuckerman
So then we fast forward for listeners.
- [32:56]
Dr. Sven Teske
Who I just wanted to add some studs. Nuclear right now, like 1 kilowatt capacity to build is about 6 to 10 times more expensive than wind and solar. A nuclear reactor construction. On average, we have about 450 nuclear reactors globally. The construction takes on average 12 years. There is one reactor in the US which took 30 years. So it is extremely expensive. It is very slow. Then you have nuclear waste. Germany paid about 40 billion euros, which is about US$50 billion, to build the fleet. Now they pay exactly the same amount of money to decommission the fleet. And it cost 1.1 billion euro a year for generations to come to store the nuclear waste next to the former nuclear power plant. We have no concept where to put it. And my son, who's just started working as an engineer and his kids have to pay for grandpa and grandmother, who actually had electricity from those power plants. So it is extremely expensive. It's too slow, too expensive. We don't need it.
- [34:24]
Wendy Zuckerman
Right. And so. So if I could be the nuclear lobbyist for the day, just to play. So it is clean energy. It's not. It's not emitting carbon dioxide, at least. And the length of time it takes to build it. I have heard a lot of that is getting permits, which is true of renewables as well. But is that not. Is the actual building process is. Even if the government was like, let's do it. I'm gonna take China.
- [34:53]
Dr. Sven Teske
China is a good example. China has no problems giving permits, right? Five to six years is sort of the absolute minimum. Usually it's seven to 10 years.
- [35:03]
Wendy Zuckerman
Right? So, Wade, do you agree? Nuclear not part of the solution.
- [35:06]
Wei Su
Nuclear is definitely not the silver bullet. Firstly, it only addresses energy emissions, if at all. And then I'll get to that.
- [35:13]
Wendy Zuckerman
But then we can't put little nuclear on our campus.
- [35:15]
Wei Su
No, we can't I don't even know how that would work. So it still does not address non energy emissions as we talked about. But the way I see it, when faced with these options where you have nuclear or renewable energy technologies, so you still have to put uranium in as a form of fuel for the life of the nuclear plant, not the same case in renewable energy. You don't need to pay for the sun and wind. And not to mention the really huge hidden cost, if you like, which is the environmental impact and the social impact that nuclear plants can have, all of which does not come with wind and solar technologies.
- [35:54]
Dr. Sven Teske
So forget it.
- [35:55]
Wendy Zuckerman
Forget it. Okay, okay, so forget nuclear. Our last batch of questions, really. A lot of people were curious about exciting big projects that can help get us out of this mess. So here is Liz.
- [36:13]
Wei Su
There are days when I feel like all the little incremental changes are just.
- [36:20]
Wendy Zuckerman
Not going to work. So my question is, do any of.
- [36:24]
Wei Su
The big dramatic options, like the giant.
- [36:31]
Wendy Zuckerman
Shade that someone wanted to put in space, do any of those actually seem.
- [36:35]
Wei Su
Like they would work?
- [36:37]
Wendy Zuckerman
Are any of those something that I.
- [36:38]
Wei Su
Should be getting behind and supporting?
- [36:41]
Wendy Zuckerman
Because I'm just, I'm honestly not sure way is a giant shade going to save us?
- [36:49]
Wei Su
I can't say yes or no at the moment, but there is a role for some of these new emerging, almost science fiction technologies. And I am generally quite a bit excited about new technologies because I do believe that, you know, solar and wind was in like, was that big shade that people are talking about today. Thirty years ago people didn't understand that like, you know, how can we reliably get electricity at scale from this panel that absorbs solar radiation? Now we can. So who's, who am I to say that this big shade isn't going to be the thing that's going to come and save us? However, we don't know that yet today.
- [37:29]
Wendy Zuckerman
Okay, Sven, what do you think? Because there's I guess, other ideas out there. We're going to suck carbon out of the sky. There's, you know, direct air capture. We've got geoengineering projects, giant shades. How do you feel about all these balls in the air?
- [37:44]
Dr. Sven Teske
I'm a professor at a technical university. I'm agnostic, I'm interested in technology. But also I've seen a lot of proposals which, the first and foremost, the job is to delay, to implement a solution and just to keep going sort of business as usual.
- [38:04]
Wendy Zuckerman
That's right, that's right. If I read one more headline about what about this, this, what about that? When this is my concern is that it gives people this idea that some magic scientific technology will come and save the day and we can just keep living our lives on fossil fuels until that magic moment comes.
- [38:26]
Dr. Sven Teske
But my question is, do we really want to live on fossil fuel or do we want to have energy? I mean, I don't want to have fossil fuels. I want to have acclimatized home, I want to drive, I want to do stuff. But at the end of the day, as a consumer, isn't it totally irrelevant if it's from electricity or is it burning oil? Doesn't matter as long as it works.
- [38:51]
Wendy Zuckerman
So to cap us off, how hopeful are you both feeling that we will solve this, that we will stay below some temperature that means we're not completely screwed?
- [39:03]
Dr. Sven Teske
I totally believe that, I have to say. Do you really? I totally believe that because I think, first, we have no other option. Secondly, all the solutions actually grow exponentially right now. Solar and wind grows exponentially. And I think that's the real hopeful thing. All the solutions currently grow exponentially. And that's really good.
- [39:23]
Wendy Zuckerman
Right?
- [39:24]
Wei Su
We can do this. We are also seeing the most momentum in the public and private sector than we have ever seen in the past.
- [39:32]
Wendy Zuckerman
You're saying this because you're going into those offices, meeting those suits.
- [39:37]
Wei Su
Yeah. We've got a commitment from basically every country in this world to get to net zero. The time matters, how quickly we can get there. But there is a commitment. Most governments in the world have policies in place to reach these commitments to different extents, but they are talking about this. Net zero is now a household term where emissions wasn't even a thing 20 years ago. So we are seeing the most momentum than we have ever seen in the past, in history, really, around understanding and acknowledging climate change and then taking action and also making some significant real investments, both by the public and private sector in terms of reducing emissions.
- [40:23]
Wendy Zuckerman
Because a lot of our listeners, there was a lot of depression, a lot of hopelessness, but we don't need to feel like that. No, thank you. Thank you both. It's fan and way.