Loading summary
Transcript61 lines
- [00:00]
Wendy Zuckerman
Wendy.
- [00:00]
Hi, I'm Wendy Zuckerman, and you're listening to Science Versus. Earlier this year, there was this huge news that scientists had brought back the dire wolf.
- [00:15]
DT Max
Meet Remus and Romulus, the first two dire wolves since the Pleistocene era.
- [00:24]
Wendy Zuckerman
This is a promotional video from the company that made these wolves colossal. And in the video, you can see these gorgeous little white pups.
- [00:34]
DT Max
At just 15 days old, the pups take their first wobbly steps before a much needed nap time.
- [00:44]
Wendy Zuckerman
The pups, who are now more than six months old, were made by taking the DNA of a gray wolf and then tweaking 14 genes in it to make them bigger, give them lighter coats, have larger teeth and jaws than a gray wolf would. And when folks found out about these animals, there was this huge media buzz with headlines plastered all over the place. One of the wolves even made the COVID of Time magazine with the line quote, he's a direwolf, the first to exist in 10,000 years. Endangered species could be changed forever. But is that right? Did scientists really bring back the direwolf? What exactly is going on here? And is this a good idea? Or could it have dire consequences? That's what our friends over at Today explained wanted to know. So today we're gonna share their episode. Looking into this after the break, co host of Today Explained, Sean Ramaswaran. We'll take it from here.
- [01:54]
Foreign.
- [02:03]
This episode is brought to you by Brooks. So Brooks just released the new Glycerin 22 running shoes. And let me tell you why. I think you're gonna love them. So I have weird shaped feet. I know lots of people don't love their feet, but seriously, I have bunions on one side of my foot. On the other side, there's this bone that may as well be a bunion. The pinky toe is weird. The second toe, it's all just a mess. And it means that buying shoes is a real mess. Every single time I buy shoes, and particularly running shoes, I have to coat my feet with band aids so I don't get blisters. Except for when I wear. Brooks, Seriously, I just put on my new glycerin 22 running shoes just then.
- [02:57]
DT Max
And went for a run.
- [02:58]
Wendy Zuckerman
No band aids. And my feet feel great. It was a great run. They were bouncy. It was fun. They're also so bright. They're so clean. I guess that's just because they're new shoes. But seriously, I'm really excited about these shoes. If you want to know more about the glycerin 22 shoe, head to BrooksRunning.com this episode is brought to you by Loom by Atlassian when you start feeling stuck at work with too many meetings or tracking down every teammate to get approval on one little document, get unstuck with video messaging from Loom by Atlassian With Loom, you can record your screen, your camera and your voice to share video messages easily. Using video helps you and your team save time and stay connected even when you're working across time zones. So now you can delete that novel length email you were writing instead, record your screen and share your message faster. Loom even has easy editing and AI features to help you record once and get back to the work that counts. Unstuck your process, projects and teams with video communication from Loom Try loom today@loom.com that's L O O M.com.
- [04:29]
Sean Ramaswaran
Direwolves not just a Thing from Game of Thrones not just Jon Snow's best friend Direwolves walked the Americas for millennia up until about 14,000 years ago when maybe their primary food source dried up or humans hunted them to extinction. No one was taking notes. But we know they were bigger than gray wolves. They ate a lot of meat and their bite could crush bones. And now we know that apparently dire wolves are back. A startup called Colossal says they've brought these pups back from extinction. They say they've got three of them. But are these dire wolves they brought back actually direwolves? And whether they are or aren't, should we be trying to bring dire wolves back? Like, why.
- [05:23]
Wendy Zuckerman
Not?
- [05:23]
Sean Ramaswaran
A lot of people have seen these direwolves that have come back from extinction up close and personal. Like DT Max from the New Yorker is one of the few who has.
- [05:33]
DT Max
Okay, so first of all, we just gotta get this out there. We either have to put dire wolves in quotes or we have to give them a name. Like, I don't know, we could do anything.
- [05:41]
Sean Ramaswaran
Like how about diet direwolves?
- [05:44]
DT Max
Yes, exactly. These so called dire wolves are created by extracting DNA from a 72,000 year old Dire Wolf inner ear bone and a 13,000 year old Dire wolf tooth.
- [05:56]
Wendy Zuckerman
They determine its closest living relative is the gray wolf.
- [05:59]
Sean Ramaswaran
So then they made 20 edits to.
- [06:02]
DT Max
Gray wolf DNA to include those dire wolf specific genes.
- [06:05]
Sean Ramaswaran
That animal looks like a dire wolf.
- [06:08]
Wendy Zuckerman
It will behave like a dire wolf, and it is a dire wolf. This is insane.
- [06:13]
Actually, these are not dire wolves by any definition.
- [06:18]
DT Max
But the other point is it doesn't really matter when you're seeing them because you know you're seeing something. You know that's absolutely amazing. I mean, you're seeing something that lovely. So these two bright white wolves, I did not see them where they live. I saw them where they were brought to be seen, which was far, far away.
- [06:36]
Sean Ramaswaran
And you can't tell us where that was, but it's somewhere, somewhere in the northern United States, I've read.
- [06:41]
DT Max
Yeah, I hold, I do hold bigger secrets as a journalist, but I'm not, I'm not supposed to tell you where. But so what happens? Okay, so there. So first of all, I, I see a couple of people I know from the reporting on the piece. I see George Church, who looks as, as much like Gandalf as any human being on this planet who holds tenure. And I also see Ben Lamb, the guy who founded the project. Looks a lot like it's John Lee Snow. Right. The point is, like, it's the perfect setup. And then there are these two bright white teenage wolves. So, you know, even any, any wolf is impressive. So it's not. I mean, I have actually seen wolves before for another article, strangely enough. So a wolf carries its own weird kind of authority with it. But these, they do look different. And again, I'm not an animal morphologist, so, you know, I've been told pale, but they're white. And they're, they're like celebrities. I mean, there's no other way, you know, there's no other way to describe it that they're, they're delightfully, blissfully heedless of how much like money and effort has gone into the creation of them. They're basically, you know, they're, they're in this enclosure, they're doing little things wolves do and dogs sometimes do. One pees, the other roles in it. But, you know, they're, they're majestic. They are going about their quasi meta direwolf existence. Blissful disregard for any controversy about what you want to call them or blissful disregard of whether they should have been brought back in the first place.
- [08:14]
Sean Ramaswaran
Tell us more about this company that brought back the diet direwolf version that you saw.
- [08:22]
DT Max
We could do this all day.
- [08:25]
Sean Ramaswaran
It's called Colossal. It's run by a dude named Ben Lam. Who is he? What is he trying to do here?
- [08:31]
DT Max
So, I mean, Ben Lamb is kind of amazing. I am pretty much in awe of Ben Lam. Here's a guy who's maybe 40 something. He's already had like four or five successes by which he started up four or five companies and they were bought out by larger companies, which is kind of what you want to do. When you're a startup guy. And then one day he meets a guy named George Church. Church being the Gandalf of our earlier narrative, if that survives. And Church is a Harvard professor, a guy who's gotten a million patents and loves to do deep thinking. He's a big kind of what if guy. Like, what if we were to bring back the Neanderthals? And then the press goes, ah. And then George Church goes, I was just considering it. I just thinking about it. You guys, calm down. So George Church and Ben get together and they basically, what Ben says is, if you had all the money in the world, George, what would you bring back? What would you want to do with your time? And George says, I'd bring back the woolly mammoth. Sick.
- [09:35]
Sean Ramaswaran
I mean, I don't know if it's responsible, but it sounds cool, Right?
- [09:39]
DT Max
Right, exactly. And, you know, they get together. It's like, let's put on a show, right? And you know, this being Ben Lamb, super talented, perfectly adapted, modern entrepreneur. And he raises money, basically. I don't know the details. I think he raises money with a phone call because he's got a great second idea. And his second idea is, while we learn how to de. Extinct these animals, we're going to learn an awful lot of interesting biomedical tech and that we could sell. That's where we make our money. We're not going to make our money. He's very, very firm on this. There will be no Jurassic Park. We will not display these animals. Let's check back in in five years. But we will spin off the biotech. And the biotech is honestly probably worth even more than what is. What is Disney World charged now or Disneyland?
- [10:30]
Sean Ramaswaran
Hundreds. Hundreds.
- [10:32]
DT Max
All right, so maybe I take that back. Maybe, maybe the better business is displaying them.
- [10:38]
Sean Ramaswaran
How much money have they raised to do this? And how much is this company that they're running colossal worth at this point?
- [10:45]
DT Max
All right, so they. They've now raised over $400 million. And their valuation, which is a kind of complicated metric involving what shares are worth, is over $10 billion, which puts it at the size level of Moderna. They've had an insane, insane first, you know, first few years.
- [11:03]
Sean Ramaswaran
And I ask you this not because, like Paris Hilton or Peter Jackson, I'm planning on investing in this company, but because I wanted to establish that people are taking these people seriously. And now that we've established that, do us a favor and tell us just how hard it is to do what this company says it wants to do.
- [11:27]
DT Max
The direwolf, you know, is Not. Let me just get this out there for everybody. The direwolf is not. There's a difference between being extinct for 40 million years and being extinct for 14,000 years. They both sound like a long time to us, but, you know, it's just not comparable. So you can get, you can get. I can't get, you can't get. But Beth Shapiro could get viable ancient DNA. Now, what you do with that DNA is you read the genetic sequences and then you recreate them, right? And you're gonna put that DNA into cells, and the cells are gonna replicate and you're gonna have an animal. Ultimately, once you put in an embryo and then implant it in a womb, you're gonna have an animal that has those genes being acted on. That makes it sound like you or I could probably do it with just a little bit of help. But it's not that easy because there are problems, you know, at every step of the way. And it's a little bit like if I described to you how to hit a home run, you'd be like, yeah, okay. You know, there's the force and there's the counterforce and there's the angle of the swing. But most people don't hit home runs.
- [12:38]
Sean Ramaswaran
You mentioned someone named Beth Shapiro, who's now, I think, one of the leading scientists over at Colossal. And someone like Beth Shapiro comes from, I believe, UC Santa Cruz out in California, where she was doing versions of this kind of work, if not trying to, you know, revive the woolly mammoth. Can Colossal work faster than your, I don't know, typical elite university lab?
- [13:09]
DT Max
Yeah, I mean, I don't think you can get that much money going at a university lab without. Without a fair amount of grant writing. I mean, grant writing is slow, and getting funded is slow. There's a guy named Lova Dalen, who's a Swedish woolly mammoth guy, and I think he made a really good point in my piece that nobody's really picked up on. And I think it's about the money, which he said, like, the people who invested in this company weren't going to give, I'm paraphrasing him, $100 million to the world Wildlife Fund. They're tech people. They probably would have bought bitcoin with it otherwise. Peter Jackson said that being a part of Colossal is as fun as movie making. I.
- [13:53]
Wendy Zuckerman
I could do that.
- [13:55]
DT Max
You know, I think that kind of tells you something. I don't think if they'd been doing this in Beth Shapiro's old lab at the University of California, Santa Cruz, he'd have thought it was as much fun, you know, as movie making to bring.
- [14:08]
Sean Ramaswaran
This back to where we started DT with Romulus and Remus, these two diet dire wolves. What happens to them? I do. I'm going to stick with it. What. What happens to them? Where do they go?
- [14:22]
DT Max
You know, never say never, but I think they're expected to live out their lives. I think a wolf gets the same 15 years, I think that a smaller dog gets. Live out their lives and, you know, they will not be. They will not hunt. They will be given, like, I don't know if you've ever been to a zoo and seen what they feed the lions and tigers. They feed them like they would have hunted, but they didn't hunt it. Like, just oozing, bleeding, massive amounts of meat. And I think that that's what the direwolves are going to get. But they're. But they're not planning to breed them, which I don't entirely understand. That Colossal talks a lot about, like, reintroducing some of their animals into the ecosystem to do environmental good. I don't think the dire wolf was conceived by them with that as a possibility. First of all, I mean, people don't want dire wolves in their backyard.
- [15:15]
Sean Ramaswaran
When you realized that these diet wolves would just die out, did that bum you out? What did you make of that?
- [15:21]
DT Max
Yes. Yes, I did. It was absolutely. You know, there were a number of sad moments in reporting this piece. I mean, first of all, you have to kind of come to grips with the immensity of the damage that humans have done and for how long we've been doing it, because the direwolf is essentially driven extinct mostly by human activity, you know, 14,000 years ago. But I don't know when you realize that this whole thing is kind of to show we can. Yeah, it becomes sad because wasn't. Isn't one of the reasons that we used to drive animals extinct because we could, because there was money in it. And isn't it kind of weird that we're now de. Extincting an animal? You know, kind of, because we now have this. This technology that can reopen the door that we see. We thought that we had absolutely and, and, you know, incontrovertibly closed before. So the whole thing leaves you a little bit blue.
- [16:29]
Sean Ramaswaran
DT Max read his profile of the direwolves over@New Yorker.com the ethics of de extinction when Today Explained his back.
- [17:04]
Wendy Zuckerman
You're listening to Today Explained. I'm Robert Klitzman. I'm a professor of psychiatry and director of the online and in person Masters of Bioethics programs at Columbia University and the author of Designing How Technology Is Changing the Ways We Create Children.
- [17:24]
Sean Ramaswaran
And when we look at these diet direwolves in the Northern United States, somewhere by way of Colossal, do we feel more good or bad?
- [17:33]
Wendy Zuckerman
I think there is a lot of excitement. It's definitely cool to bring back extinct species. But there's a lot of questions we have about where these animals will live, what their lives will be like, why we're doing this, what the long term view or vision is. And a lot of that depends on how the technology is then used and what happens.
- [17:54]
Sean Ramaswaran
Well, let's talk about, to start with, what do you think of the ethics of the process by which these dire wolves have come to be? Obviously, let's just think about whatever animal it was that birthed these dire wolves. Not a dire wolf, I assume.
- [18:10]
Wendy Zuckerman
Right. So there's a few issues that come up. One is we're making a bunch of dogs pregnant to produce them. And I have concerns about the dire wolves. But more importantly, the company has said that its longer term plan is to produce or reproduce or to create a woolly mammoth. With that, there are even bigger concerns because that you'd have to take elephants, you'd have to get many elephants, female elephants, anesthetize them. You'd have to stick probes up their vagina to extract eggs. You'd have to then get many elephants pregnant. Hopefully some will not miscarry, some will miscarry. Then you'll have to do C sections on the elephants to get the woolly mammoths out. So that's going to be very cumbersome and it's going to hurt a lot of elephants. So dire wolves, we have three of them that were created and I should say they're not really dire wolves. They're gray wolves that have had about 15 of their genes changed. So of 80 potential genes that could be changed, they've changed 15. And when we're mucking around with nature and changing genes, mistakes get made. Genes have multiple functions that we don't always know about. So for instance, five of the genes at Colossal was going to change because they were in dire wolves, but not in gray wolves. The researchers decided not to change because these genes would create deafness and blindness in the dire wolf. So we don't always know when we're altering genes what the effects are going to be. Genes have multiple effects. About five years ago, Dr. He Jiankui in China genetically engineered three children. He took the embryos and he wanted to disable a gene called the CCR5 gene to prevent HIV from getting in the cells because he was going to work with HIV positive fathers. But in disabling that gene, other viruses are more likely to enter the cell. So West Nile virus is more likely to enter the cell. So you may disable a gene because you want one thing or put a mutation in or change a gene because you want one thing, but other things may happen. So these wolves may end up having other kinds of medical problems. These are big animals. They're 150 pounds. Colossal has them on about three square miles, whereas normally they usually live in areas between 50 and 1,000 square miles. So we're keeping them at a very constricted space. They're at risk of other diseases. So I'm concerned about their welfare.
- [20:49]
Sean Ramaswaran
It sounds like you have a host of concerns. And throughout listening to you describe many of them, I hear the potential for death lurking at every corner. Which is, I guess an irony of this process known as de extinction, is that it sounds like you sure gotta kill a lot of animals to get to the point of bringing back an animal that, as we heard from Dt earlier, might end up simply just dying off again, which I guess gets to the point of cruelty. Where is the regulation when it comes to this process of de extinction?
- [21:31]
Wendy Zuckerman
Well, there are no regulations and that could create problems. So there have been guidelines that were developed before we actually had any extinct animals to look at. There was one animal, a goat in the Pyrenees, the mountains between Spain and France, that was brought back and lived for 10 minutes. So the guidelines we have aren't very good and we don't really have any. We have no government regulations, regulations on this. And in fact, the Trump's. President Trump's Secretary of the Interior, Doug Borgum came out the other day and said it's great that Colossus is doing this because now we don't have to worry about driving other animals into extinction.
- [22:12]
DT Max
If we're going to be in anguish about, about, about losing a species. And now we have an opportunity to bring them back. I mean, pick your favorite species and call up Colossal. And, and instead of raising money to get animals on the endangered species, let's figure out a way to get them off. And this is one tool, biodiversity, what.
- [22:30]
Wendy Zuckerman
It can do for everybody, let them go. We don't need regulations, was his point. To protect animals. We can just. Any animal that disappears, we'll just clone it back. And I think a lot of the company, colossal is worth $10 billion. It'd be great if we can help animals that are on the verge of extinction and help them survive, given that we are losing, as Colossal says, we're losing a lot of animals every year and we will be losing more partly due to climate change. Let's work on protecting those animals that are still here and have a place to live.
- [23:03]
Sean Ramaswaran
We've talked about a lot of the risks here, a lot of the drawbacks. I want to talk about some of the potential benefits. Do you see some good there? If we do indeed get some medical or scientific breakthroughs out of this company's work, I mean, there's been talk of rebalancing habitats, fixing mutations and endangered pink pigeons, vaccinating elephants against herpes, sharpening our tools for fighting diseases. There's apparently some potential there.
- [23:34]
Wendy Zuckerman
So unfortunately, at the moment, President Trump has been cutting back hugely on research at nih and the National Institutes of Health has funded immense amounts of research that have led to immense human benefit, partly because it's been available for, in the public domain. Research is published, which this company hasn't published many of its key findings. So you could argue that there is a greater need to a focus public dollars on this, on research which are now being drastically cut back. And secondly, a question is whether or not the prime aim here is to help nature help endangered species or to make money. Right? And if I think, as DT wrote in his piece, the company only plans to create maybe three or five dire wolves, what's the point? Is it to develop science that they can then sell or is it to create these animals which create huge publicity? And this has been the front cover of Time magazine. It's been on every major news network, it's been on every major newspaper. They're trying, as I understand, to raise more money. So this gives them great profile. We're going to bring back these five animals. But is it to help nature or is it to raise more money? And this is sort of the poster child for them, the woolly mammoth too, which is their long range goal. They say, well, it could lead to meat and fur and tusks and they may decrease global warming by tamping down permafrost. Well, there's, there's very, there's decreasing amounts of tundra, icy tundra for them to live, to have an industry of mammoth fur and meat, you need a lot of these animals and we don't have the space for them. Maybe Russian Siberia somewhere does. Good luck with that. The Russians aren't exactly our best buddies at the moment. And even if these animals do Wherever they walk, press down snow, the snow's gonna melt. Further cause of climate change. So you're not getting at the source of climate change. So I'm not sure how much the end result is gonna be actually helping animals versus making money.
- [25:47]
Sean Ramaswaran
Dr. Klitzman, I thought of one silver lining in all of this. If what you're saying is true, someone still cares about being on the COVID of Time magazine.
- [25:56]
Wendy Zuckerman
You mean that we still have magazines? Yes, yes, yes. And I should say I realize I'm coming across as very negative. I don't mean to come across as negative. I think that science is very important. I think given decreasing amounts of money for science, it would be great as we as a society could spend it where it's going to lead to the most bang for the buck. We're at the cusp of, for instance, new vaccines. All kinds of new vaccine research that NIH was about to start is now ending. I think that near term or low hanging fruit is there that we can invest in that will be able to help millions of people.
- [26:45]
Sean Ramaswaran
Dr. Robert Klitzman, Columbia University. Dr. Devin Schwartz made our show today. He was edited by Jolie Myers, fact checked by Laura Bullard and mixed by Andrea Christin's daughter and Patrick Boyd. My name's Sean Ramisvrum. The show is Today Explained.
- [27:15]
Wendy Zuckerman
That was Today Explained, which is made by Vox. Today Explained comes out every day and digs into all sorts of stuff in the news, from direwolves to doomsday preppers, allergies to baby Botox. You can find them wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Wendy Zuckerman and regular science vessels will be back next week. I'll fact you then.