Fiber: The Secret to a Healthier, Happier You?

Summary

Science Vs Podcast Episode Summary: "Fiber: The Secret to a Healthier, Happier You?"

Release Date: October 31, 2024

In the insightful episode titled "Fiber: The Secret to a Healthier, Happier You?" from Science Vs, hosted by Spotify Studios, the often-overlooked nutrient fiber takes center stage. Producer Michelle Dang, alongside expert guest Dr. Deirdre Mickelson, delves deep into the science behind fiber's acclaimed health benefits, separating fact from fiction.

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1. Fiber’s Rise in Popularity

The episode opens with Michelle Dang highlighting fiber's newfound trendiness on social media platforms like TikTok. Once considered the "world's least sexy nutrient," fiber has undergone a significant reputation transformation. Michelle humorously remarks, "You might think of fibre as something your grandpa kept going on about, but all over TikTok and socials, the sexiest people online are obsessed with it" (00:06).

2. Fiber and Gut Health

a. Promoting Regularity and Stool Quality

Dr. Deirdre Mickelson emphasizes fiber's fundamental role in maintaining regular bowel movements. "Fiber can affect so many different parts of your body that I didn't realize before," she states (03:28). The conversation underscores how fiber adds bulk and water to stool, leading to "smooth and soft" bowel movements (04:11). Michelle humorously sums it up, "No dry poos" (05:33).

b. The Pigs Study: Fiber's Impact on Gut Microbiome

A pivotal study discussed involves feeding 40 pigs a high-fiber diet alongside a steak-based meal. Observations revealed that fiber-rich diets fostered a more diverse and abundant gut microbiome. "Fiber is the main food for these gut bugs," Dr. Mickelson explains (09:20). This diversity is linked to a healthier gut environment, reducing risks of chronic diseases (10:27).

c. Consequences of Low Fiber Intake: Leaky Gut and Inflammation

The episode delves into the adverse effects of insufficient fiber consumption. Without adequate fiber, gut microbes may consume the protective mucin lining the intestines, leading to "leaky gut," where toxins enter the bloodstream and cause inflammation (12:44). This condition is associated with increased risks of inflammatory bowel diseases and colorectal cancer (13:29).

3. Fiber’s Role in Preventing Chronic Diseases

a. Reducing the Risk of Colorectal Cancer

Dr. Mickelson discusses how low fiber diets are linked to higher colorectal cancer risks. Fiber aids in keeping the gut environment healthy by minimizing the time harmful substances remain in the intestines, thereby reducing DNA damage in gut cells (13:39).

b. Protecting Heart Health

The conversation shifts to heart health, highlighting how soluble (viscous) fiber slows sugar absorption, preventing blood sugar spikes that can lead to insulin resistance and heart disease. Additionally, fiber binds to bile acids, prompting the body to utilize more cholesterol to produce new bile acids, thereby lowering blood cholesterol levels (22:55). A long-term study cited found that individuals with fiber-rich diets had a 14% lower risk of cardiovascular diseases (27:55).

c. Longevity Benefits

A meta-analysis mentioned in the episode reveals that every 10 grams of fiber consumed daily can reduce the general risk of dying by 10% (28:41), underscoring fiber's role in promoting longevity.

4. Fiber and Mental Health: Unraveling the Connection

Exploring the gut-brain axis, the episode examines how fiber influences mental health. Gut microbes, fueled by fiber, produce short-chain fatty acids that may aid neuronal communication in the brain. John Kryan, a neuroscientist, explains this bidirectional communication: "Our gut talks to our brain, but our brain talks to our gut. Two way street" (15:40).

However, while observational studies show a correlation between high fiber intake and reduced depression and anxiety, a meta-analysis of 10 randomized controlled trials found that only 2 studies supported fiber's positive impact on mental health, with the remaining 8 studies showing no significant effects (18:10). Dr. Mickelson concludes, "The bottom line for depression is that, right now, the evidence for fiber isn't there" (18:46).

5. Fiber and Weight Loss: Limited Impact

The episode assesses fiber's efficacy in weight management. While fiber-rich foods can promote satiety and reduce overall calorie intake, studies indicate that fiber supplementation leads to minimal weight loss. For instance, one study reported an average loss of 0.3 kilograms (less than a pound), suggesting that fiber alone is not a significant driver for weight loss (29:03).

6. Meeting Daily Fiber Requirements: Challenges and Solutions

Despite fiber's benefits, over 90% of Americans fail to meet the recommended daily intake of 25 grams for women and 30 grams for men (31:00). The episode offers practical dietary sources to boost fiber intake, such as:

• Legumes: Beans, lentils, and peas
• Fruits: Apples, raspberries, and bananas
• Vegetables: Carrots, broccoli, and leafy greens
• Whole Grains: Oats, brown rice, and whole wheat bread
• Nuts and Seeds: Walnuts, chia seeds, and flaxseeds

Personal anecdotes from Michelle Dang illustrate the difficulty in achieving these targets, highlighting the need for conscious dietary planning.

7. Practical Takeaways and Final Thoughts

The episode wraps up by reinforcing fiber's essential role in promoting gut health, preventing chronic diseases, and contributing to overall longevity. While its impact on mental health and weight loss remains inconclusive, the overarching message encourages listeners to incorporate a variety of fiber-rich foods into their diets to harness its extensive benefits.

Notable Quotes:

• Dr. Deirdre Mickelson (05:12): “It's adding weight and size to your poo.”
• Dr. Mickelson (10:10): “A healthy gut microbiome is stable, diverse, and abundant.”
• Dr. Mickelson (17:19): “No difference was found between fiber supplementation and placebo for depressive or anxiety outcomes.”
• Dr. Mickelson (28:41): “Fiber can help you live longer.”

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Conclusion

The "Fiber: The Secret to a Healthier, Happier You?" episode of Science Vs offers a comprehensive exploration of fiber's multifaceted benefits. By dissecting scientific studies and presenting expert insights, the episode empowers listeners with knowledge to make informed dietary choices, ultimately fostering a healthier lifestyle.

For those looking to deepen their understanding, additional resources and citations are available in the episode’s show notes.

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Disclaimer: This summary is based on the transcript provided and aims to encapsulate the key discussions and insights from the podcast episode. For a complete understanding, listening to the full episode is recommended.

Transcript

[Wendi Zuckerman]

Hi, I'm Wendi Zuckerman and you're listening to Science versus Today.

[Michelle Dang]

We're pitting facts against fiber. That's right, the world's least sexy nutrient has been getting a glow up recently. You might think of fibre as something your grandpa kept going on about, but all over TikTok and socials, the sexiest people online are obsessed with it.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Fiber.

[Andrea Glenn]

That's the answer. Fuel your body with fiber. I need to eat more fiber.

[Michelle Dang]

And so do you.

[John Kryan]

It'll change the way that you think of food forever.

[Michelle Dang]

People say that this one little nutrient packs a huge punch. It'll supercharge your gut. Say goodbye to gut inflammation and hello to the best poos in town.

[John Kryan]

Start eating food that is rich in fiber.

[H]

Hey, be dropping logs daily.

[Michelle Dang]

People are saying it can help you lose a ton of weight. Fiber.

[I]

It's literally going to shrink your waistline.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

I've lost weight. My belly fat's gone.

[H]

My man boobs are gone.

[Michelle Dang]

Apparently with enough fiber, your depression could be gone too.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

So you're not eating enough fiber. Your anxiety is going to skyrocket. I was suffering with depression for over a year and it was because I had neglected fiber.

[Michelle Dang]

We're hearing that fiber can even prevent other scary things like heart disease and cancer. Yet apparently a ton of us just aren't getting enough of it. According to national surveys, over 90% of folks in the US aren't eating enough fiber every day. 90%. So could adding a few scoops of bran to your diet really be the thing to make you a better and brighter you? When it comes to fiber, a lot of us want to be dropping logs daily. But then there's science. Science versus Fiverr is coming up just after the break. The toilet break.

[Wendi Zuckerman]

This episode of Science Versus is brought to you by Ford. There are few pickups more iconic than the F150 and the 2024 F150 Lightning truck is no exception. With an EPA estimated range of 320 miles with the available extended range battery, it's the only EV that's an F150. Visit Ford.com to learn more. Excludes Platinum models. EPA Estimated Driving Range based on full charge. Actual driving range varies with conditions such as external environment, vehicle use, vehicle maintenance, high voltage battery age and state of health.

[Andrea Glenn]

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[Michelle Dang]

Welcome back. Today on the show, we are diving into the world of fiber. And to help us out, we have producer Michelle Dang.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Hi, Wendy.

[Michelle Dang]

How cool do you think fiber is?

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

I don't. I'm very impressed by fiber. I impressed by fiber. Fiber can affect so many different parts of your body that I didn't realize before.

[Michelle Dang]

Okay. All right. Well, where do we begin?

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Okay, Wendy. So the one thing that everybody knows about fiber is it keeps you regular. Yes.

[Michelle Dang]

Which is such a funny euphemism for it makes you do good poos.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Yes. Regular good poos.

[Wendi Zuckerman]

Now, I don't want to stay in.

[Michelle Dang]

Poo land for too long, surprisingly for me. But why exactly does fibre do this?

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

So I talked to Dr. Deirdre Mickelson at the University of Queensland, and she told me what the ideal fibery poo looks like.

[J]

The sausage. That's a sausage. Indeed. That's a sausage. So you want sausages coming out of.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Your end, smooth and soft.

[J]

That's right, smooth and soft. Because you know it's just coming out, you're not having to force it.

[Michelle Dang]

So why does a good sausagey poo have a bunch of fiber in it?

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Okay, so fibers are generally these carbs we can't digest. They basically don't get destroyed by the juices that our gut throws at them. And, well, particularly think about the tough part of fruits and veggies, like the skin or even nuts. The fiber in these make it all the way down to your poo pipe.

[Michelle Dang]

Your lower intestine.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Yes. And they end up adding weight and size to your poo.

[Michelle Dang]

Oh. Cause if you eat something, I don't know, low in fiber, like white bread or something, a lot of that is just gonna get absorbed by your small intestine or whatever. It's not gonna get all the way down to your poo pipe, as you say.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Yeah. And here's the other part of it. If you zoom in on a piece of fiber, it kind of looks like a tangled ball of yarn. And in between the strands of it, that piece of fiber can entrap water. This helps you get a nice moist poo that moves along as well.

[Michelle Dang]

Oh, that's cool. No dry poos.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

There's actually a study from the 80s where they tracked how long it took 12 people to poo after eating. And on average, fiber made their poos faster by 24 hours.

[Michelle Dang]

Wait, so just by eating fiber stuff moved through their gut faster by 24 hours.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

So, you know, it shaved off a whole day.

[Michelle Dang]

That's impressive. That's impressive. Okay, away from poo. Now, can we dive into these bigger claims about the gut? Like, I've heard that eating fiber can reduce the chance of you getting leaky gut, Irritable bowel syndrome, colon cancer.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Yes. To get us into all of those, you and me, we're going to start off by looking at this amazing study that Deidre did involving pigs. Oh, okay, Wendy, I don't think we do enough pig studies on this show.

[Michelle Dang]

Okay. Okay, well, let's bring in the pigs.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

So several years ago, Deirdre and her team got 40 pigs. And these were chunky white pigs. So do imagine Babe or Wilbur.

[Michelle Dang]

Okay.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

And they used these pigs. Cause our guts are actually pretty similar to piggy guts.

[Michelle Dang]

So what happened to these little Wilbur's?

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

All these pigs got a fancy meal.

[J]

We fed pigs steak. And this was good steak. This is not some crummy thing. It was barbecued, you know, steak.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

So everyone got the steak as part of their diet, but half of them had a bunch more wheat fiber added to their diets too.

[Michelle Dang]

Okay.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

And they had to eat like this for a month before it was time to check on their guts. And, well, to do that, these pigs were then sacrificed. The next step was for Deirdre to take a close look at what's going on in their intestines. And, well, these things are really long.

[J]

So if you think about your garden hose, your green garden hose, and how long that green garden hose was, that is basically what I unraveled next.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

She gently squeezed the semi digested food out of the intestines and that made.

[J]

Me go off pork for about three months. I could not eat Japanese curry or any form of curry that'll look yellowish or whatever. Sorry, I know it's a bit gross.

[Michelle Dang]

Yeah, it is a bit gross.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Here's where Deidre is ready to do the fun part of the experiment. She took this digested yellowy brown stuff and stuck it under a microscope. So big reveal. Deirdre's a microbiologist, so she wants to look at what the gut bugs were up to in these pigs.

[Michelle Dang]

So what was going on with the gut bugs? What did the fiber do to the gut bugs?

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Ooh. Do you want to see pictures from her study?

[Michelle Dang]

Yes. Oh, my gosh. Yes, yes, yes.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

So this is what she saw under the microscope. They looked at bits of meat inside the pig guts and bits of fiber.

[Michelle Dang]

Okay, what am I looking at?

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Do you see these Little green dots?

[Michelle Dang]

Yes, yes.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Those are. Those are bacteria.

[Michelle Dang]

Oh, okay.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

And do you see any green dots on this piece of meat?

[Michelle Dang]

No. They do not care about that little remnant of steak at all.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Yeah. Here's Deirdre.

[J]

Interestingly, the microbes did not attach to the meat, but they were very much attached to the fiber. You could definitely see the microbes actually sticking to the fiber.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

They're having a feast, basically.

[J]

Absolutely. They're having a feast.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Let me show you the piece of fiber. Oh, whoa.

[Michelle Dang]

Oh, my gosh. They love that fiber.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

There's so many of them on there, right?

[Michelle Dang]

So many of them on there. It's like a huge body.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

I was trying to think. It looks like cicadas stuck in a tree. Like, there's so many of them and they're all up into all the crevices.

[Michelle Dang]

What does this mean for our health? That these gut bugs love fiber and do not like little bits at steak.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Yeah. Fiber is the main food for these gut bugs. I mean, they'll eat meat if they have to, but it's not what they want. We know that they get more energy from fiber over meat. And the fact that you're feeding gut bugs with fiber matters a lot, because when Deidre looked at the pigs who got more fiber compared to the ones who didn't, they not only had more good gut bugs, they had this amazing variety of them too, which is super important.

[J]

What is time and time again coming through in all the studies that are being done is that a healthy gut microbiome or a healthy gut microbiota is one that is stable, one that is diverse, and one that has got abundance.

[Michelle Dang]

This is something that I've heard from researchers is if you think about your gut like a rainforest, and a healthy rainforest has lots of different animals, monkeys, cool insects, and that's a healthy rainforest. But an unhealthy rainforest is a monoculture. And that's true with your gut as well.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Yeah. And in studies in people, we also know that both eating more fiber and having a more diverse gut bug ecosystem is linked to a lower risk of chronic diseases like irritable bowel syndrome and inflammatory bowel disease.

[Michelle Dang]

Oh, that's cool. And so what exactly are these gut bugs doing that's sort of making our gut healthy?

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Yeah. So there are specific kinds of bacteria that eat fiber and leave behind this chemical called short chain fatty acids.

[Michelle Dang]

Oh, so the. The gut bugs are kind of excreting these chemicals.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Yeah. And interestingly, the cells in your large intestine slurp up these acids as energy.

[Michelle Dang]

Really? Like this stuff that gut bugs are farting out. Our gut cells actually use that for nutrients.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Yes. It's very cool. And now let me tell you what happens if you don't feed your gut bugs. It's not good.

[J]

And that's where I think people don't realize that they're starving their microbes. They're starving a portion, a very important part of themselves.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Yeah. One thing microbes start to do is eat each other.

[J]

Doggy dog world, if you like.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

But that's not all. These hungry gut bugs can go after you too.

[J]

They'll also start eating the mucin that lines the gut.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Oh, mucin is kind of like this beautiful snot that lines your gut and it acts as a wall of defense between all the harmful stuff that's in your intestines, like viruses, bad bacteria and toxins and the rest of your body. If that mucin wall defense breaks down, those gut cells under the mucin might get damaged, creating little holes in your gut lining that can then let toxins into your blood and cause inflammation.

[Michelle Dang]

On a very basic level, if you don't eat enough fiber, your gut bugs get hungry. Your once friendly gut bugs get hungry, and they can then start eating this thing that protects your gut lining. And so your gut lining starts breaking down.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Yeah. You might have heard it's called leaky gut. And we've seen this happen in mice that don't get any fiber.

[Michelle Dang]

And so studies have found that people who don't eat enough fibre have holes in their gut.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Yeah, we think that's part of the reason why low fiber is linked to some of those bad gut diseases I mentioned, like inflammatory bowel disease.

[Wendi Zuckerman]

Okay, and then what about cancer?

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Well, not eating enough fiber can increase the risk of colorectal cancer. In fact, Deirdre's colleagues saw the beginning signs of this in some of the.

[J]

Pigs within a month without fiber. And if you had that high protein diet, you were on track to develop colorectal cancer, and that was frightening.

[Michelle Dang]

What did they say?

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

That the pigs who got less fiber actually had worse DNA damage in their gut cells.

[Michelle Dang]

And why is that?

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Well, one reason is because fiber helps keep your gut cells happy. Right, right. And happy and healthy. Yes. But also, if you have a diet that's high in red meat, we know that can produce carcinogens in your gut. And if you're not eating fiber and not pooing regularly, that means those toxins stay in the gut for longer, giving them more time to damage the DNA in gut cells. Oh, yeah, here's Deirdre on that, you.

[J]

Can just see the effect starkly within a month, like, that was what was so shocking.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

In Waterview. People who ate the most fiber compared to people who ate the least fiber had a lower risk of colorectal cancer by something like a third.

[Wendi Zuckerman]

All right, Michelle.

[Michelle Dang]

I am convinced that fiber is very important for my gut. Reduces my risk of colon cancer and all those yucky gut diseases. That is all amazing.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

And it helps you poo, and it.

[Michelle Dang]

Helps me poo something I love as well. All right, next up, can we look at these claims around fiber and depression that eating fiber can help with your mental health?

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Okay, so we do know the brain and the gut talk to each other in different ways. Like, there's a big nerve that connects the gut and the brain. And we're getting more and more evidence suggesting that our gut microbes could be pumping out stuff like neurotransmitters that can chat with our brain. Here's John Kryan, a neuroscientist from University College, Cork in Ireland.

[H]

So our gut talks to our brain, but our brain talks to our gut. Two way street.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

And when it comes to why fiber in particular might help your brain, do you remember how when you eat fiber, certain gut bugs will eat that up and make those short chain fatty acids?

[Wendi Zuckerman]

Yes.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Well, we think that those can travel through our blood to the brain and possibly help how neurons communicate with each other. Oh, so recently, John took fresh brain slices from mice and doused them with those chemicals that microbes make. And what he saw was that these chemicals could affect synaptic plasticity, which is how neurons can change their connections between each other. That's what helps us make memories and learn stuff. And John says it also might be helpful in treating depression. So here's how John thinks about fiber.

[H]

I think it is the fuel for your microbe factory. It is fuel, and it's fuel for your brain.

[Michelle Dang]

So have there been any studies in people to really test this out, this idea that fiber can reduce depression?

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Okay, so there are studies that have asked thousands of people about how much fiber they eat and separately, what their mental health is like. And they generally do find a link between low fiber and depression and anxiety.

[Michelle Dang]

That's interesting.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Studies like this led to a lot of exciting headlines, I'm sure. Quote, the key to reducing your depression risk could be fiber study says, unquote.

[Michelle Dang]

I guess with those studies, though, it is impossible to know if it was the fiber that caused the boost in mental health. Right, because, like fiber, eating a lot of fiber generally comes with a Generally more healthy diet of eating fruits and vegetables. And there's lots of reasons why if you already have depression, you might not be eating a healthy diet.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Yes. It's hard to know in those types of studies if it's really fiber making a difference here versus other stuff going on in their lives.

[Michelle Dang]

Exactly.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

And so to get to causation, we need our favorite randomized controlled trials where researchers randomly assign people to take a pill filled with fiber and see if it improves their mental health compared to a control that gets a placebo.

[Michelle Dang]

Great. Okay. Okay, so what do these studies find.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

In this big meta analysis that John was a part of? They looked at 10 of these studies and only two found it worked. The rest of the eight studies didn't.

[Michelle Dang]

Oh, yeah.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

In the results of the meta analysis, they said, quote, no difference was found between fiber supplementation and placebo for depressive or anxiety outcomes.

[Michelle Dang]

Yeah. Disappointing, though. Would have been nice if fiber was the KD of mental health.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

I asked John about it. The bottom line for depression is that, like, right now, the evidence for fiber isn't there.

[H]

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, but that doesn't mean it won't work.

[Michelle Dang]

Wait, why is he saying that?

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

I mean, one reason is that these studies kind of reduce fiber down to a pill, whereas some researchers say that eating fiber from a bunch of different foods is what will make gut bugs happier.

[Michelle Dang]

Oh, okay.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Maybe we need to be doing these studies where we're telling people to eat a big fiber filled diet instead of just taking a small supplement after the break.

[Wendi Zuckerman]

Weight loss.

[Michelle Dang]

Can fiber help you shed those pounds?

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Plus how fiber might even save your life. Coming up.

[Wendi Zuckerman]

This episode is brought to you by Ford. I'm here with our editor and electric vehicle owner, Blythe.

[I]

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[Wendi Zuckerman]

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[I]

It is Ford's commitment to getting electric vehicle drivers started with confidence. When you buy or lease one of their electric vehicles, you get a complimentary home charger and standard installation.

[Wendi Zuckerman]

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[I]

The Ford Mustang Mach E, F150 Lightning and E transit cargo van. You can visit FordPowerpromise.com to learn more.

[Wendi Zuckerman]

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[J]

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[John Kryan]

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[Michelle Dang]

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[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

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[Michelle Dang]

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[H]

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[Michelle Dang]

Welcome back. Today on the show, we are talking about the wonders of fiber. You thought it was just your grandpa's cereal, but in fact the fiber's getting a glow up. We're giving it a glow up. We're here with producer Michelle Dang. And now where to next?

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

We are going to the heart. We think fiber might actually be a lifesaver here.

[Michelle Dang]

Interesting. How does this work?

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Yeah, so we've kind of been talking about fiber as one thing. It actually breaks down into a couple different types. So there's soluble fiber and insoluble fiber. And within the soluble type, you've got stuff that turns into kind of a gel sticky.

[I]

We call it sticky fiber. Sometimes the viscous fiber.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

This is Andrea Glenn. She's a nutrition scientist at New York University. And I asked Andrea about where we find viscous fiber in the first place.

[I]

You think of like oatmeal, like if you're playing with cooked oatmeal, it's going to stick to your hands and that's the viscous fiber. Have you ever eaten okra before? And it's kind of.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

It's kind of jelly slimy.

[I]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's also viscous fiber.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

So, yeah, it's in a bunch of stuff like fruit, eggplant, mushrooms, beans, for example. And when it continues to mix with water in your stomach, the gel gets even thicker.

[Michelle Dang]

And so then how is that good for your heart?

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Well, it starts here. So a big reason that people develop heart disease is because eating sugar and fun stuff like muffins, candy can give you high blood sugar spikes.

[Wendi Zuckerman]

Right.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

And if that happens over and over again, you can get insulin resistance, which can then lead to diabetes or even heart disease. And what's super cool is that sticky fiber can help stop those high sugar spikes.

[Wendi Zuckerman]

How?

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Because when you eat food that becomes that thick, gooey stuff, what that does.

[I]

Is it slows down digestion, so it stays in your stomach longer, you know?

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Cause it's, like, physically sticky and heavy. In one study, they fed people 5 grams of gur gum of viscous fiber with a meal and found that it slowed down food going from the stomach to the small intestine by nearly two hours.

[Michelle Dang]

But didn't it make us poo faster? Now it's making us poo slower. Is this because it makes us poo faster once the food gets into the large intestine? But now this, all this fun action is happening higher up in the gut.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Yeah, exactly. It's specifically slowing down the emptying of your stomach into your small intestine. And this is important because your small intestine is where sugars get sucked up into your blood.

[H]

Oh.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

And not only does it slow down food, this goopy, sticky gel is also coating up all the foods that you've eaten with it, creating this barrier around it and making it harder for little digestive enzymes to reach the sugars you be in.

[Michelle Dang]

So it means less sugar gets into your blood?

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Not that. But it does mean that sugar gets into your blood slower.

[Michelle Dang]

Oh, because it's protected by this goop.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Right. It makes it harder for your gut to slurp out sugars from the food you've eaten and suck it up into your blood.

[I]

So your blood sugar goes up slower, and then it goes down slower as well.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

So if we ate an apple with a gummy bear, what would happen then?

[I]

Yeah, it would be better than just the gummy bear on its own.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

But does it cancel out or the sugar?

[I]

No, definitely not.

[Michelle Dang]

Okay, if only. Oh. But it actually does help a little because it slows down the sugar spikes. Right?

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Yeah. And then I also want to tell you quickly about cholesterol, because fiber helps with that too.

[Michelle Dang]

Huh?

[Wendi Zuckerman]

Right.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Okay. So it's a very weird journey.

[Wendi Zuckerman]

Mm.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

So the sticky fiber comes along and traps these things called bile acids in our guts, which are there to help us digest food.

[Michelle Dang]

Uh huh.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

But this means that your body needs to make more and more bile acids. And what's important for our story here is that bile acids are made up of cholesterol.

[Wendi Zuckerman]

Oh.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Yeah. So because the sticky fiber is trapping your bile acids, basically taking them out of commission, your body has to make more and more and more bile acids, which means it's sucking up more and more cholesterol from your blood.

[Michelle Dang]

And that is how eating fiber reduces cholesterol.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Yes. It's very tricky. Right. It's like what?

[Michelle Dang]

That is very surprising. So does eating this viscous sticky fiber have a measurable effect on the risk of heart disease?

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Yeah. So recently Andrea did a study to find out, like, what are the long term effects here?

[Wendi Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

And she used data of more than 200,000 people that had been tracked for about 30 years. And what they found was that people who eat a fiber packed Diet had.

[I]

A 14% lower risk of total cardiovascular disease. Coronary heart disease. So that includes things like heart attacks and then stroke as well.

[Michelle Dang]

That might not all be because of the fiber though.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Right?

[Michelle Dang]

Because like we've mentioned, if you're eating a healthy diet, you might also be doing things like more exercise or other stuff.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

That's true. That's true.

[Michelle Dang]

Bet Andrea thinks it's real.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Yeah. And Andrea could see in the data that the more viscous fiber people ate, the better. It was cool. Actually. There's a bunch of studies that have found this over and over again. There's even one meta analysis that found that for every 10 grams of fiber people ate a day, it brought down their general risk of dying by 10%. So that's pretty surprising.

[Michelle Dang]

Fiber, huh?

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Can help you live longer.

[Michelle Dang]

All right, so if that wasn't a reason enough to eat fiber, the last thing we're going to look at is this claim around weight loss. So what do we know here?

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Okay, so this viscous fiber, it moves pretty slowly through your stomach and into your gut, which also means you might not get hungry as fast.

[I]

So if you eat like a bowl of oatmeal and you don't need to eat for five hours versus, like, white bread, maybe you'll be hungry again in two hours and you'll have an extra snack. So it might Help control your calories that way.

[Michelle Dang]

That makes sense.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

And there's also some evidence that fiber helps with weight loss because of those gut bugs. When they munch up the fiber they love so much, they actually help your body pump out hormones that could help you feel fuller.

[Michelle Dang]

Oh, cool.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

But let's look at what happens to people's weight when they actually have more fiber. One study actually had people take this super viscous fiber for a year and they lost some weight, but it was less than 3 kilos, about 6 pounds compared to a control. And in fact, a big meta analysis looking at more than 60 trials found that people on fiber compared to control.

[I]

Diets, on average, they lost about 0.3 of a kilogram. Oh, so it's not a lot?

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

No, it's not much at all.

[I]

Less than a pound.

[Michelle Dang]

Oh, that's so low. That's so low. Oh. I guess that that classic thing of just eating is complicated. And even if that bowl of oatmeal made you feel more full, it doesn't mean 30 minutes later you're not reaching for the chocolate. Yeah, I'm speaking for myself personally. Okay. So even though fiber not particularly good for weight loss, it is good for so many other amazing things. Your heart, your gut. And yet 90% of us aren't getting enough of this. So what does it take to eat enough fiber?

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Well, Wendy, I had you track your fiber.

[Michelle Dang]

Yes.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Let's look at how you hold up to what you're supposed to be eating.

[Michelle Dang]

I wondered when that was coming into it. Yes.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

And let me tell you first, the recommended amounts to eat. It's about 25 grams for women and 30 grams for men.

[Michelle Dang]

Okay.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

More or less, depending on your age. If I look at your data.

[Michelle Dang]

Oh, I'm nervous.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

There were two days out of 14 that you hit your recommended amount.

[Michelle Dang]

Yeah, that's it.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

But on those days, you did really good. You got over 40 grams of fiber on the days you vet it. But then on the rest of the days, you were around like 15, 16 grams, which actually is where most of us are eating on average.

[Michelle Dang]

All right, this is an example of an average person who did not reach their fiber. I guess I'll just go through the stuff that has fiber in it because, like, I ate a lot of. I ate a bagel, I ate an apple scroll garbage calories. Right. I ate half a tomato, two apples.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Okay.

[Michelle Dang]

Half a carrot, some lettuce, some walnuts. That didn't get me there.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

And you know, I track too. I did not do a very good job. So I know the struggle, especially when things aren't moving along. I talk to Deirdre about this too. It's when I bring out the psyllium husk. Yeah.

[J]

Oh, goodness me. But listen, do you really want to have psyllium husk stirred into a glass of water? It would taste disgusting. Just eat your firm vegetables. Just eat a celery with a bit of peanut butter, girl. You'd love that.

[Michelle Dang]

That's funny because, like, looking at that day where I ate a lot of fiber, it was because I ate two cups of frozen peas. This is my ticket, my personal ticket, because, I don't know, peanut butter just doesn't do it for me. But frozen peas, two cups will get you almost 15 grams. That's, like a lot of the way there. That's my ticket to fiber heaven.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

That's. Oh, that's a bowl. That's a bowl full of peas. But that's a lot of fiber.

[Michelle Dang]

Now that I think about the next day. I actually didn't feel great. I was pretty bloaty and my poos were not the sausages. So I guess you can go overboard.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Yeah, that can happen. If you eat too much fiber, suddenly it can make you bloated and farty. So you might want to ramp up the peas more slowly.

[Michelle Dang]

But still. But still. I mean, for the most of the time, I wasn't doing that. Rachel, what was your ticket to fiber town?

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

I got 25 grams of fiber from just eating tortilla wraps. No way. So maybe that. Maybe I'll just keep e eating burritos all the time.

[Michelle Dang]

That's awesome. Was it like high fiber wraps?

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Yeah, they were. But again, it's best to get your fiber from a variety of foods.

[Michelle Dang]

Yes.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Other tickets to high fiber heaven could be stuff like raspberries, whole grain pasta, lentils, beans, chia seeds, and, you know, why not throw in some high fiber wraps, too, right?

[Michelle Dang]

Okay, well, to high fiber. Wrap up this episode here. Michelle, here is what I have learned about fiber. It is amazing for your gut. Guess I kind of knew that before, but now I know that if you don't have fiber, your lovely gut bugs will turn on you and start eating you. And that could be bad for your gut.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Yeah.

[Michelle Dang]

Fiber also amazing for your heart, Particularly that viscous, sticky fibre that you get from oatmeal and eggplants and okra.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Yeah.

[Michelle Dang]

Not particularly great for weight loss and depression. Who knows? So, Michelle, you've been just swimming in the world of fibre for ages. How do you think this is gonna change your life? This episode? How has science versus changed your life, Michelle?

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

It's making me be more conscious about what foods I'm selecting. And I'm really thinking, oh, my gosh, there's all these, these trillions of microbes in my gut that I need to feed. I'm like, whoa. So, yeah, I am going to change how I eat and, you know, to take it home. Here's what Deidre had to say.

[J]

Fiber is not a sexy sounding word by any stretch of the imagination. But what is sexy? Sexy is what clever marketing executives put out, right, to promote foods for our big multinational food company. So to hell with sex. Sexy. I'm sexy, God damn it. So, yeah, I'm going to look after myself. And hence it means looking after my microbes. And guess what? That's your fiber for you.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Happy gut bugs. Happy you.

[J]

Happy you indeed, Michelle. And I think on that note, I think that's a wrap. No, sorry. That should be your thing. No, but that's exactly. That is so well put.

[Michelle Dang]

All right, well, Deidre said it. That's a wrap. And Michelle, how many citations are in this week's episode?

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

There are 104 citations in this episode.

[Michelle Dang]

104 citations. And if people want to read more about Fiverr and see these citations, where should they go?

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Please check out our transcript, which you can find in our show notes.

[Michelle Dang]

Yes.

[Wendi Zuckerman]

And if you want to see all of the different kinds of foods that you can eat to hit your fiber.

[Michelle Dang]

Target and reach high fiber heaven, just go onto our Instagram sciencevs and we've.

[Wendi Zuckerman]

Got some diagrams waiting for you. You can also say hello on my TikTok, which is Wendy Zuckerman, and let me know what you thought of this episode. Thanks so much, Michelle.

[Dr. Deirdre Mickelson]

Thanks, Wendy.

[Wendi Zuckerman]

This episode was produced by Michelle Dang, with help from me, Wendy Zuckerman, Meryl Horne, Rose Rimler, and Aketti Foster. Keys were edited by Blythe Terrell. Fact checking by Erica Akiko Howard. Mix and sound design by Sam Bear. Music written by Bobby Lord, Peter Lennon and Bumi Hidaka. Recording help from Nick Kilvert. And extra thanks to Kafayat Youssef. Plus thank you to Joseph Lavelle Wilson and the Zuckerman family. Science for Esses is a Spotify Studios original. Listen to us for free on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. We are everywhere. But if you are listening on Spotify, follow us and tap the bell icon for more episode notifications so you know when new episodes come out like this one.

[Michelle Dang]

I'm Wendy Zuckerman.

[Wendi Zuckerman]

Back to you next time.