Narcissists: Are We Surrounded?

Summary

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Science Vs: "Narcissists: Are We Surrounded?"

Host: Wendy Zuckerman
Producer/Lead Researcher: Rose Rimler
Guests/Experts: Lee Hammock, W. Keith Campbell, Craig Malkin, Kali Trznesevsky
Date: July 2, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into the science behind narcissism—moving beyond internet caricatures and viral buzz to explore the diagnosis, its prevalence, cultural shifts, and strategies for living with (or as) a narcissist. Using candid interviews with psychologists and a self-identified narcissist, the show separates fact from myth and offers grounded advice on coping with narcissism.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. What Is Narcissism? (01:18–09:00)

• Rose Rimler introduces the complexity of narcissism beyond stereotypes: "On the internet, there's all these caricatures of what a narcissist is, but the reality is a lot more complicated and actually a lot more interesting." (01:28)

• Clinically Diagnosed Narcissist’s Story:

  • Lee Hammock, a social influencer, shares how his diagnosis started with his wife’s accusation after an argument: "You know what? It's so damn hard living with a narcissist." (02:44)
  • His self-discovery via "angry Googling" and realization upon reading the traits: "Oh, damn… this is it." (03:33)
  • Childhood story: Lee recalls being angry that an injured classmate inconvenienced him: "I don't care that he's hurt… now we have to go inside because you made a decision not to listen to me." (04:51)
  • A moment of self-acceptance: "You're right? I am a narcissist." (05:20)

• Distinguishing Types:

  • Pathological Narcissism/NPD: Characterized by extreme self-centeredness, lack of empathy, and functional impairment.
  • 'Normal' Garden Variety Narcissism: Some self-focus or arrogance, but within normal human variation—a spectrum rather than a binary.

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2. Are Narcissists Taking Over? (09:00–23:21)

• History of the "Narcissism Epidemic" (10:01–17:39):

  • Psychologist W. Keith Campbell describes early 2000s culture as hyper-self-promotional, sparking a surge in research.
  • The "Narcissistic Personality Inventory" (NPI) is introduced as the main psychological tool to measure grandiose narcissism.

• Measuring Narcissism: Take the Test! (11:57–16:57):

  • Wendy and Rose self-test using the NPI, discussing their results with humor (“Everybody likes to hear my stories.”).
  • Average NPI scores: “The average score is about 15… less than 8, you're really on a tail end… more than 22, you're getting up there in your narcissistic traits.” (15:02–15:23)
  • Fun fact: Reality TV stars score highest on narcissism (average 19.5). (16:23)

• The Data Debate: Epidemic or Myth? (17:06–23:21):

  • Early research (Campbell and Twenge) suggested rising narcissism (using college student data and augmenting with cultural trends).
  • Kali Trznesevsky finds no rise in narcissism using high school senior surveys: “They saw no narcissism epidemic… most things didn't change.” (21:02)
  • Recent studies (post-2006) show narcissism is actually decreasing among young people. Even earlier proponents (Campbell) now acknowledge this: “What it looks like is that grandiose narcissism is going down.” (22:07, Campbell)
  • Meta-analyses agree: little evidence of a widespread narcissism epidemic—“at this point, it’s an archaeological question because it’s over.” (23:14)

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3. The Dark Side: Pathological Narcissism / NPD (26:18–35:36)

• What Drives Pathological Narcissism? (26:18–28:54)

  • Craig Malkin: "Really the core of pathological narcissism is this drive to feel special." (26:31)
  • The "triple E": Exploitation, Entitlement, Empathy impairments. (27:04)
  • NPD affects about 1% of the US population. (28:01)
  • Lee Hammock’s internal world: "Normalcy. Being average is painful. It's like death. It's almost like dying. I want my tombstone to be a statue." (28:34)

• Are Narcissists Happy? (29:07–30:40)

  • Many with NPD also suffer from depression and anxiety—often more than the general public.
  • Emotional wounds persist: Criticism lingers like a "scar" that can "randomly just burst open." (30:14, Hammock)

• Can Narcissists Change? (31:16–35:36)

  • Therapy is the primary approach ("There's no medicine, no pills... go to therapy," says Lee, 32:10).
  • Lee describes therapy enabling self-awareness: “My very first thought is typically the narcissistic reaction… so I take a deep breath, I ask, is that narcissism or is this normal?” (33:46)
  • Outcomes are variable: No broad trials, high dropout rates, but improvement is possible for those who stick with therapy.

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4. Coping With a Narcissist: Strategies & Advice (35:36–41:48)

• Don’t Focus on Diagnosis—Focus on the Relationship (36:22)

  • Craig Malkin: "Am I safe in this relationship? Do I like how I'm being treated regardless of where it comes from in this person?" (36:22)

• Science-Backed Communication Tips:

  • Empathy Prompt: Express vulnerability and value (“you’re the most important person in my life… it’s devastating when you dismiss my ideas…” 37:43–38:00).
  • Catching Good: Reinforce positive behaviors by linking them to outcomes the narcissist values (e.g., better work performance). (39:05–39:28)
  • Gray Rocking: In conflict, become neutral and non-reactive, providing no fuel for drama. (40:25–41:02)
  • Safety First: If you feel unsafe, prioritize your own well-being over trying to “fix” the relationship. (41:33)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Don't angry Google." – Lee Hammock, describing his moment of self-exploration (02:55)
• "Being average is painful. It's like death. It's almost like dying." – Lee Hammock on his aversion to normalcy (28:54)
• “If you are the narcissist… going to therapy is a good idea.” – (42:06)
• "My brain is like, there’s a narcissistic part of me and a non-narcissistic part of me—they’re like, sitting in the living room arguing… All day long. Yeah. No, I don't find very much peace." – Lee Hammock (34:04)
• "Narcissists are among us. There may not be as many of them out there as the Internet would have you believe, but they are among us." – Wendy Zuckerman (42:05)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduce Lee Hammock, Self-Aware Narcissist: 01:43–05:36
• Are We in a Narcissism Epidemic? History of the Debate: 10:01–23:21
• Game: Hosts Take the Narcissistic Personality Inventory (NPI): 11:57–16:57
• Narcissism Data Clashes & Findings: 17:14–23:21
• Defining Pathological Narcissism (NPD): 26:18–29:07
• Happiness and Suffering in NPD: 29:07–31:14
• Can Narcissists Change? Therapy Experiences: 33:32–35:36
• Advice for Living With a Narcissist: 36:22–41:48
• Episode Conclusions / Takeaways: 41:48–43:15

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Final Thoughts / Takeaways

• The term "narcissist" is widely misused. There’s a big difference between someone with a few narcissistic traits and those struggling with Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
• The supposed “narcissism epidemic” is not supported by robust scientific evidence. Cultural panic about rising narcissism is likely exaggerated.
• Pathological narcissism is rare (~1% of population), but deeply impacts both the sufferer and those around them.
• Therapy may help people with NPD, but change is difficult and uncommon.
• For those living or working with narcissists, strategies include empathy prompts, positively reinforcing good behaviors, and “gray rocking.” But—your own emotional/physical safety always comes first.
• Everyone—not just those at the high end of the narcissism spectrum—can benefit from self-reflection and making sure they aren’t harming their own happiness by focusing too much on themselves.

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Practical Resources Mentioned

• Narcissistic Personality Inventory (NPI): Online tools for gauging narcissism on a spectrum.
• Therapy: Especially talk therapy, as the recommended intervention for those diagnosed with NPD.

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(For full scientific references and further reading, listen to the episode or check Science Vs show notes.)

Transcript

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Wendy.

Hi, I'm Wendy Zuckerman, and you're listening to Science Verses.

[Co-host or Guest]

I know that last week I said

we were taking a quick break to work on some new episodes.

That is true.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

We are.

[Co-host or Guest]

We are working on new episodes. Thank you so much for all of

your suggestions as well. To Julia, who wants an episode on Hippos and wrote to us saying, quote, the world is heavy and so are hippos. I want to say I hear you,

but the reason that I am here

now is because we noticed that recently we've had a bunch of new listeners to the show, which is really awesome. Thank you so much.

Welcome to the Science Versus party.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

And so we thought while you're here,

[Co-host or Guest]

let's pop one of our favorite episodes down the feed. It's from a few years ago, and it's about the science of narcissism.

It was a delight to listen back to.

So interesting.

I learned so much again. So I hope you like it.

[Sponsor or Advertisement Voice]

Enjoy.

[Co-host or Guest]

This is the show that pits facts against inflated egos. Today we are talking about narcissism. So of course I've invited senior producer Rose Rimler to tell me all about it.

[Rose Rimler]

Hey.

[Co-host or Guest]

Well, because you did the research.

[Rose Rimler]

Fair enough. I have been doing the research. And you know what I quickly realized diving into all this is that on the Internet, there's all these caricatures of what a narcissist is, but the reality is a lot more complicated and actually a lot more interesting. So to start, I want you to meet someone. This person is an actual narcissist.

[Co-host or Guest]

Oh.

[Rose Rimler]

He's a social media influencer.

[Co-host or Guest]

That.

Touche. That jump sounds very appropriate.

[Rose Rimler]

Could you start by introducing yourself to our audience?

[Lee Hammock]

Hey, everybody. My name is Lee Hammock. I am a clinically diagnosed narcissist. One of my monikers has become like, the self aware Narcissist.

[Rose Rimler]

And Lee wasn't always self aware about this, but something happened about eight years ago that changed his whole world. So Lee is a dad, and on this particular day, he was home alone with his six month old son. The baby was crying, and Lee was feeling really annoyed that the baby was fussing while he was trying to get some of his own work done. And he found himself raising his voice at the baby. And then his wife walked in, heard this, and she's like, what the hell? You're yelling at an infant? And they got in a huge fight about it.

[Audience or Background Voice]

Hmm.

[Lee Hammock]

So I told her to get the hell out. And of course she's like, okay, I'm leaving. And on the way out, the door. She said, you know what? It's so damn hard living with a narcissist.

[Rose Rimler]

She said that kind of like tossed over her shoulder as she walked out the door.

[Lee Hammock]

Yeah, super insult. It's so damn hard to live with a narcissist and slam the door. I was just like, wait, what?

[Rose Rimler]

Cause he's like, why would she say that?

[Co-host or Guest]

Right?

[Lee Hammock]

Why does she call me that? So I sit down on the bed and I'm, you know, don't. Don't. Angry Google. I was angry Googling. So I typed in narcissist in Google and it said, did you mean narcissistic personality disorder?

[Rose Rimler]

That is the medical term for someone who is diagnosed as a narcissist.

[Lee Hammock]

I didn't. I didn't mean that. But, you know, let's. I'm. I'm seem. I seemingly. I got. I got time on my hands now, so let's go down the rabbit hole. So I clicked on it, and literally, it was like I started reading the signs and the symptoms and things like that, and just. I was like, oh, damn.

[Rose Rimler]

It was really a huge moment for him because he's reading all these descriptions of what makes a narcissist, at least according to Dr. Google, and he's nodding along. So it's like, you think you're special. Which he definitely does think that. He's always believed he was destined for greatness. Another one is you are preoccupied with yourself. Yup. He keeps reading. Lack of empathy. That one definitely felt right. Was there an example that flashed in your mind? You're like, oh, that was the time when I was being unempathetic.

[Lee Hammock]

I don't know if you ever seen the movie Ratatouille. So there's a scene in Ratatouille at the end when, like, the food critic eats the ratatouille, and it took him back to his childhood. Yeah, that's what happen. When she said that, like, when I started looking up narcissism and a lack of empathy, it took me back to my childhood when I was, like, in first or second grade, he was on

[Rose Rimler]

the playground in school. He was watching this kid named Tony climbing on a jungle gym, and he saw that Tony was gonna try to hang upside down by his legs. And he had a bad feeling about this. He didn't think Tony was strong enough to go upside down, so he told Tony to stop, but Tony did it anyway, didn't listen.

[Lee Hammock]

Bam. He falls, snaps his arm, and everybody's like, oh, my goodness, Tony's hurt. I'm screaming. I'm angry at Tony now. I don't care that he's hurt. You know, I'm angry as hell. I'm crying angry.

[Rose Rimler]

What were you thinking as a kid when he broke his arm?

[Lee Hammock]

That he had inconvenienced me because now we all had to go inside. And now this is the time we get to go outside and play. Now we have to go inside because you made a decision not to listen to me.

[Rose Rimler]

Little kidley was so angry and upset in this moment that he actually remembers the teacher looking at him and saying, what's wrong? Wrong with you? And at the time, of course, he didn't know, but as an adult on this day, in his bedroom after the fight with his wife, he's like, wait, now I know.

[Lee Hammock]

I was like, damn. Wow. This is it. I remember texting my wife. I was like, you right? I am a narcissist.

[Rose Rimler]

Really?

[Sponsor or Advertisement Voice]

Yeah.

[Lee Hammock]

That night. Yeah, that night I was like, you're right. I looked it up. I am a narcissist like you. You're 100% on it.

[Rose Rimler]

And now today, as an influencer, Lee talks a lot about narcissists like him and how to live with them, deal with them. And he's part of this huge trend where people cannot stop talking about narcissists. There are even people saying that we're in a narcissism epidemic. And I'm hearing about narcissists just like coming out of the woodwork, you know, our bosses, our parents, celebrities. Let's turn to Nick Cannon, who says he needs help after being diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

There is a self importance in me.

[Rose Rimler]

I believe I am not ordinary.

[Expert or Guest]

One in six people are narcissistic.

[Rose Rimler]

The rates of narcissism are rising.

[Lee Hammock]

In Trump, you literally have the most

[Craig Malkin]

narcissistic person I think anyone can name in our lifetime.

[Lee Hammock]

He is a consummate narcissist. How do you deal with these people? How do you live with these people?

[Rose Rimler]

It's even become like something that comedians joke about. I don't know what narcissist means, but

[Craig Malkin]

if it's about me, it's gotta be good.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah, we're in an epidemic of narcissism. We should be raising awareness.

[Craig Malkin]

Should be like, wear a little mirror for narcissist day.

[Co-host or Guest]

I mean, today.

Today is narcissist day for us, right?

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah. So let's. We'll put on our little mirrors because today on the show, we're gonna find out what's really going on here. Is the world truly overrun with Narcissists.

[Co-host or Guest]

Are they hosting science podcasts? Beloved science podcasts.

[Rose Rimler]

How do you know if you're one or your boss? Her partner is one. And if you're stuck with a narcissist in your life, what do you do about it?

[Co-host or Guest]

Science versus narcissism is coming up just after the break.

[Sponsor or Advertisement Voice]

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[Rose Rimler]

Toss green salads with delicious ranch dressing or zesty Italian.

[Sponsor or Advertisement Voice]

Serve smooth, craveably creamy potato salads with mayo. We all know it's not a cookout without Kraft.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration block. Or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it, ready to make anything online make sense. There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required compatibility and availability. Various 18 plus.

[Co-host or Guest]

Welcome back. Today on the show narcissism, it is blowing up.

Right now. We're going to dive into the science of it and we're here with senior producer Rose Ribler.

All right, Rose, question number one. Is the world overrun with narcissists?

[Rose Rimler]

So people tend to throw around the word narcissism pretty willy nilly, but first you have to know there is some different types here. So there's pathological narcissism. That's a trait where people constantly put themselves and their own needs above other people and their needs. And it's often associated with this lack of empathy. If that describes you, you could get diagnosed potentially with narcissistic personality disorder. And Lee actually did get that diagnosis. Oh wow.

[Co-host or Guest]

That from that argument that his wife just sort of threw out, you're a narcissist. But she was absolutely right.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah. And we are going to get more into the details of that later in the episode. But there's also what's considered basically normal narcissism, where you know, you're like a little focused on yourself. You're, you're quite confident, maybe to the point of being arrogant. Maybe sometimes you think you're better than other people.

[Co-host or Guest]

Uh huh. And so to science there is this distinction. There's a personality disorder, narcissism, and then just regular old garden variety narcissism.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah. And there's a spectrum when it comes to the garden variety narcissism. That's usually what scientists or the media are talking about when they talk about a narcissism epidemic. This question of whether lots of us are moving farther and farther up this narcissism spectrum.

[Co-host or Guest]

Okay, so are we.

[Rose Rimler]

So to answer that, we gotta go back to where this all started. We are going back to the late 90s, early 2000s.

[W. Keith Campbell]

Okay, so this is the historical. Holy smokes. Just let me get my history face on.

[Rose Rimler]

That is W. Keith Campbell. He's a professor of psychology at the University of Georgia. But back then he was a postdoc at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, Ohio, along with another social scientist named Gene Twenge.

[W. Keith Campbell]

We were in a basement office. They shoved three of us in there. We had a little bit of light that came through Cleveland window that we had cut into the basement and we'd talk in our swivel chairs.

[Rose Rimler]

And a lot of what they were talking about was how the culture seemed to be changing.

[W. Keith Campbell]

We were in a period, culturally, in about 2000, that was just the most over the top, self promotional kind of culture you could imagine with the reality television show culture and other things along those lines. So it was just a very. It was kind of a very in your face cultural moment.

[Co-host or Guest]

Yeah, I mean, I remember it well, but I don't think we've moved away

from the cultural moment of self promotion.

[Rose Rimler]

I know, but I think right around then, a lot of people see that as an inflection point for certain things like reality TV. So Survivor debuted in 2000. Right around there is when American Idol started America's Next Top Model. It's like fame, fame, fame, being on tv, being special. So Keith and Gene were like, something's changing here. And it seems like people are changing in some fundamental way.

[Co-host or Guest]

Interesting.

[Rose Rimler]

So they really wanted to find this out and they really wanted to get some data behind this idea. They were becoming more narcissistic. And luckily there is this test that measures some narcissistic traits. It's called the Narcissistic Personality Inventory. And what it's meant to do is to measure these grandiose narcissistic traits. Basically how great you think you are.

[Co-host or Guest]

Can we take it?

[Rose Rimler]

Can I take it? Yeah.

[Audience or Background Voice]

Gosh.

[Co-host or Guest]

When I just said can I take it? I was like, is that a sign that I'm a narcissist?

[Rose Rimler]

Don't you want me to take it too?

[Co-host or Guest]

How special I am on the narcissism scale?

[Rose Rimler]

Before we take it, do you have any. Do you have any guesses how we will. Who will be higher on the narcissism scale?

[Co-host or Guest]

Oh, I am totally going to be more of a narcissist than you are. There is no doubt in my mind.

[Rose Rimler]

You never know. You never know. Okay, so the instructions are to read each pair of statements below and place an X by the one that comes closest to describing your feelings and beliefs about yourself. You may feel that neither statement describes you well, but pick the one that comes closest.

[Co-host or Guest]

It's like a buzzfeed quiz where just

a photo of Senator Palpatine is gonna show up on the screen.

[Rose Rimler]

It's not the nerd personality index.

[Co-host or Guest]

Lack of empathy.

[Lee Hammock]

Rose.

[Craig Malkin]

Oh, no.

[Rose Rimler]

Okay, let me put the link in the chat.

[Co-host or Guest]

Okay, I'm in.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

I'm in.

[Co-host or Guest]

I'm in.

Okay. All right, I'll read the first one. I have a natural talent for influencing people. I am not good at influencing people.

[Rose Rimler]

I'm gonna say not good.

[Co-host or Guest]

I'm gonna say I have a natural talent.

[Audience or Background Voice]

Mm.

[Rose Rimler]

The thought of ruling the world frightens the hell out of me. Versus if I ruled the world, it would be a better place. I think about this a lot. It's number two. If I ruled the world, it would

[Co-host or Guest]

be a better place. Yeah. It's not a hard bar right now, is it? I mean,

[Rose Rimler]

I am no better or no worse than most people or I think I am a special person.

[Co-host or Guest]

I really like to be the center of attention. It makes me uncomfortable to be the center of attention.

[Rose Rimler]

I just want to be reasonably happy or I want to amount to something in the eyes of the world.

[Co-host or Guest]

Everybody likes to hear my stories. Sometimes I tell good stories.

[Audience or Background Voice]

Yeah.

[Rose Rimler]

I feel confident in this one. The other day, I told someone the story. I was like, oh, the other day I had. I ate a bunch of pineapple. It was really sweet. And then I had a bagel, and the bagel was really sour in comparison to the pineapple. And it was like, great story. So that is a sometimes good storyteller I actually picked.

[Co-host or Guest]

Everybody likes to hear my stories.

[Rose Rimler]

Oh, okay. People sometimes believe what I tell them, or I can make anybody believe anything I want them to.

[Co-host or Guest]

I wish. I wish. Right? Oh, my gosh.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Wouldn't the world be a better place

[Co-host or Guest]

if everyone believed everything we said on science?

[Rose Rimler]

Verses, give her a point on the narcissism scale for that.

[Co-host or Guest]

Okay.

Okay. So before you reveal how narcissistic we

are, tell me what is the average on this test?

[Rose Rimler]

So when they have used this test and sort of a general sample.

[Co-host or Guest]

Yeah.

[Rose Rimler]

Just so you know, is in college students, that's kind of how it's been normed.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Okay.

[Rose Rimler]

The average score is about 15.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

15.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah. Do you want to hear about standard deviation?

[Co-host or Guest]

I Do want to hear about standard deviations?

[Rose Rimler]

Yes. That's about seven points on either side. So, you know, eight to 22. So that's like you're in, like, the middle chunk of the population.

[Co-host or Guest]

Okay, got it.

[Rose Rimler]

Less than 8. You're really on a tail end of, like, you're.

[Audience or Background Voice]

You're kind of a shrinking violet.

[Rose Rimler]

Okay. More than 22. You're getting up there in your narcissistic traits.

[Co-host or Guest]

All right, how did we do?

[Rose Rimler]

You got 17.

[W. Keith Campbell]

Ooh.

[Rose Rimler]

And I got 10.

[Lee Hammock]

Ooh.

[Co-host or Guest]

Okay, so we're in. We're both normal.

[Rose Rimler]

You're a little higher up on the normal.

[Co-host or Guest]

Okay.

[Craig Malkin]

Okay.

[Rose Rimler]

Also, I just have to tell you this, Wendy. I found this paper published by Dr. Drew from Loveline. Do you know him?

[Co-host or Guest]

No. No, I don't. Okay.

[Rose Rimler]

Oh, okay. It was this radio show where they answered sex questions. It was, like, big in the 2000s. They always had celebrity guests come on. And it turns out this whole time, Dr. Drew was giving the NPI to celebrities that came onto the show, and he published a paper to see, like, are celebrities more narcissistic than other people? Which kind of celebrity is the most narcissistic? And just for fun, I'll tell you that they found the celebrity that had the highest score was radio hosts. Reality TV stars, of course.

[Co-host or Guest]

Reality TV stars. Yeah.

[Rose Rimler]

Reality TV stars got, on average, 19.5, which is so funny, because that is, like, part of what kicked us all off for Keith and Jean.

[Co-host or Guest]

Okay, so with all that in mind,

that 19 is a reality TV star from the 2000s.

15 is punked. Exactly. Normal.

So I'm exactly in between the average person and a reality star. You know what? Science podcast host. That feels exactly where I belong.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah, yeah, checks out. I mean, that seems, like, just narcissistic enough. But to take this all back to Keith and Jean sitting in their basement.

[Co-host or Guest]

Oh, yeah, that's.

That's why we did this. Right. I've. I have completely forgotten about Keith and Jade, by the way.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah, that's the whole point. That's why we took this test.

[Co-host or Guest]

Yes, of course.

[Rose Rimler]

So these scientists think that people are getting more narcissistic. Right. And so what they do is they find all these studies where people have taken this test. So they were able to find data on more than 16,000 college students taking this personality test between 1979 and 2006. So then they crunched the numbers, and they found that, on average, narcissism seemed to be going up.

[W. Keith Campbell]

Yeah, we found an increase in narcissism, and I looked at the data about 25 different times to make sure. And that's what we found.

[Audience or Background Voice]

Hmm.

[Co-host or Guest]

Those traits. Those traits you see more and more Wendy's less and less roses.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah, I guess you could say that. And not only that, Keith and Jean also looked at all the stuff that was going on in the culture. So besides the reality TV stuff, stuff that they thought was evidence of people getting more narcissistic, so they pointed out that more people are getting cosmetic surgery. Parents have begun giving their children more unique names. And so they concluded, we are in a narcissism epidemic. Gene Twenge published a book called Generation Me. And all of this just blew up. It became huge. There was a ton of media attention on this. This particular group of young people heard

[Co-host or Guest]

a lot of things growing up, like, believe in yourself.

[Rose Rimler]

Everybody thinks they're gonna be a reality star by posting their selfie online, their video online. A generation more narcissistic, materialistic, naively entitled. Do you remember this?

[Co-host or Guest]

Yes, I remember. I remember all of this.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Guest]

And it felt.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

I have to say, it felt very

[Co-host or Guest]

old men yelling at clouds to recall a meme that was probably around back then. There was, as someone who was a

young science journalist hustling her way to success.

[Rose Rimler]

Hustling her way up the narcissism spectrum.

[Co-host or Guest]

Exactly. But a lot of the talk did

feel like kids these days.

Yeah, I was just seeing a pattern

of criticizing the younger generation as opposed to necessarily a pattern around a narcissism epidemic.

[Rose Rimler]

Well, okay, what you just said is exactly what this other academic I spoke to felt like at the time, too. Her name is Kali Trznesevsky. She's another psychologist. She's currently a professor at the University of California, Davis. So when she first saw this paper back when it came out, it made her really uneasy for a lot of the reasons you just said.

[Audience or Background Voice]

This idea of, you know, everybody is increasing in narcissism and, like, this generation is just going to end up in an awful place because they can't take criticism. And they're all just full of themselves, out for themselves and don't care about anyone else. Those are quite strong statements to be making that leads to these stereotypes, like, oh, yeah, there you are, there's that lazy youth again.

[Rose Rimler]

So Kali, I mean, at this time, she. Because she was, you know, a little skeptical. A little skeptical. But, you know, also, just like, if this is true, we need good. We need a lot of data behind it because we are so prone to this confirmation bias where we think the young, younger generation sucks. So she found this Other data set, it's called Monitoring the Future. And they survey high school seniors every year. They've been doing it since the mid-70s. It's not the NPI, but they do ask questions about things like, how do you see yourself compared to others? How satisfied are you with yourself? How competent are you? So questions that could be related to an inflated ego. So she and her co author looked at students answers to those questions between 1976 and 2006.

[Co-host or Guest]

And what did they see?

[Rose Rimler]

They saw no narcissism epidemic.

[Audience or Background Voice]

Yeah. So we found that most things didn't change.

[Co-host or Guest]

Oh, yeah.

[Rose Rimler]

The high school seniors in 1976 were just as likely to say, like, I'm not that special or I'm kind of special as the high school seniors in 2006. So she didn't find any evidence this data of kids really changing. Interesting. And so basically, ever since, there's been back and forth in the literature about what was actually going on over this time period.

[Co-host or Guest]

Yeah.

[Rose Rimler]

Fast forwarding. What's really interesting is about what's happening today. Scientists have kept doing these analyses since this.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Rose Rimler]

That, you know, that data was up to 2006. It's 2024.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Rose Rimler]

And so we do have newer studies where they've done something similar, looking at newer crops of college kids.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Right.

[Rose Rimler]

And actually what they're seeing now is that narcissism has been going down.

[Lee Hammock]

Wow.

[Rose Rimler]

Even Keith, who was on Team Narcissism Epidemic, remember?

[Audience or Background Voice]

Yeah.

[Rose Rimler]

He was like, yeah, it's going down. At least what the NPI can measure that grandiose narcissism.

[W. Keith Campbell]

I mean, right now, what it looks like is that grandiose narcissism is going down.

[Craig Malkin]

Whoa.

[Rose Rimler]

Huh.

[Audience or Background Voice]

Huh.

[Co-host or Guest]

So what do these researchers make of that?

[Rose Rimler]

So the debate here, I mean, it's funny, at this point, lots of scientists seem to agree, and it's not just Kali, it's not just Keith. But also, like, there's another group from the University of Vienna. They just put out this big meta analysis. All these different researchers in this space agree that there is currently no evidence that narcissism is up compared to a few decades ago. If there's a controversy, it's whether it's. There was a bump for a while.

[Craig Malkin]

Hmm.

[Co-host or Guest]

So maybe there was something about that inflection point, reality tv, coming online.

[Rose Rimler]

Well, it's hard to say because not everybody agrees that there was this bump that's still controversial. And Keith now says, like, look, at this point, it's an archaeological question because it's over.

[Audience or Background Voice]

So.

[Co-host or Guest]

So we are not in a narcissism epidemic, we may never have been.

Yeah.

[Rose Rimler]

But so far what we've been talking about is this test that nerds use to measure, you know, kind of normal levels of narcissism. We haven't been talking about pathological narcissism, which is what Leigh has.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Right.

[Rose Rimler]

And people with this can be really self centered, hurtful, manipulative. And so after the break, we are going to turn back to that darker type of narcissism to talk about what's going on in their heads. And if you've got someone like this in your life, how can you deal with them?

[W. Keith Campbell]

Ooh.

[Co-host or Guest]

Coming up,

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[Co-host or Guest]

Welcome back. Today on the show narcissists, we're wearing our little mirrors to spend a day focusing on them, which they would love, wouldn't they, Rose? So where do we go next?

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah, so we're moving to this pathological narcissism that goes way beyond us just kind of being our most arrogant selves. And I talked about this with psychologist and narcissism specialist Craig Malkin.

[Craig Malkin]

Really the core of pathological narcissism is this drive to feel special.

[Co-host or Guest]

Feel special.

[Craig Malkin]

It's sort of an addictive, compulsive need to turn to that feeling of feeling special at the expense of everything else.

[Rose Rimler]

It's about being so self centered so consistently that it actually interferes with your relationships, your ability to work and can translate into some really crappy behaviors. Craig calls them the triple E exploitation,

[Craig Malkin]

which is doing whatever it takes to feel special no matter the cost to others. Entitlement, which is acting as if the world should bend to our will because we're so special. And empathy impairments that's getting so caught up in that need to feel special that you lose sight of the needs and feelings of others. That triple E explains all of the worst behaviors in narcissistic personality disorder.

[Rose Rimler]

So to be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder, the dsm, which is like the psychological bible, says you need to display a pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration and lack of empathy.

[Craig Malkin]

Right. This is somebody who's so focused on themselves that they wreak havoc in relationships. It's pervasive.

[Rose Rimler]

And this disorder, it's not super common. It's estimated that in the US maybe 1% of the population has NPD.

[Co-host or Guest]

1%.

[Rose Rimler]

So to go back to Lee, who we heard from at the start of the show, this was the guy that had this big fight with his wife after he yelled at the baby. And he got diagnosed with this.

[Co-host or Guest]

Okay.

[Rose Rimler]

He told me that this desire to feel really special and important is a major thing that has driven him for years.

[Lee Hammock]

Kind of like the movie. I always got the kids movie references. Like when I watched the movie Coco. I always wanted to end up on the ofrenda, not just buried and gone and just forgot about. You want to be remembered as somebody who changed the trajectory of your family. You want to have the portrait of yourself in the family house, right? Well, yeah, that's Grandpa Lee right there. He changed the trajectory of the family right here. What more can I do to leave my mark on the world? What more can I do? So I'm just not a normal person. Normalcy. Being average is painful. It's like death. It's almost like dying. I want my tombstone to be a statue.

[Rose Rimler]

That's a hard mark to hit. And so it turns out that this drive to feel special doesn't always feel good. So one thing that might surprise people is that a lot of narcissists are not happy people.

[Audience or Background Voice]

Mm.

[Co-host or Guest]

That is surprising. It is. Cause I guess there is this assumption that if you were a person in the world that lacked empathy, that didn't give a about anyone else, you could just do whatever you wanted, and that somehow makes you.

[Rose Rimler]

Freeing, right?

[Audience or Background Voice]

Exactly.

[Co-host or Guest]

Exactly. But that's not what we find.

[Rose Rimler]

No. I mean, one study found that a third of people with NPD have major depressive disorder. A fifth have generalized anxiety disorder, which is much higher than the general population.

[Co-host or Guest]

Yeah, it really is surprising. I mean, it's just not how you picture a narcissist, I don't think.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah, but that's the case, and it's actually something that Leigh can really relate to because he's also been diagnosed with depression and anxiety alongside npd. And a thing that Lee told me that really helped me see why you'd be so miserable as a narcissist is that his ego really can't handle any criticism. This is pretty common with this disorder, by the way, being very sensitive to any criticism. And so when this happens to Lee, it just eats and eats at him.

[Lee Hammock]

Criticism feels like a per. Like a truly. Like a wound. Like, it just doesn't go away. It's just like, sometimes it gets healed up. It's kind of like a scar, right? It gets healed up, but sometimes it'll randomly just burst open. Like, literally. Stuff that I forgot about will pop into my head that somebody said to me in the club when I was 21 years old, and it'll hurt my feelings now. I'm like, but it's hard. It's so hard just to kind of let stuff go.

[Rose Rimler]

And so he's always on the lookout for his ego getting dinged and, like, preemptively getting ready to fight.

[Lee Hammock]

Like, when I first meet, people always try to find a way to take them down, just in case. If it's not physical violence, of course, it might be like, hmm, what is it about you? Can I hurt your feelings with just in case you try to hurt my feelings? How can I hurt your feelings?

[Rose Rimler]

You're looking for weaknesses in case you need to exploit them later.

[Lee Hammock]

Just. Just in case. Yep, Just in case. Just in case. Just in case they insult me or joke on me. How can I joke on you back to hurt your feelings or get the attention back on you, because that's how my mind just works. It's always, like, attacking and vengeance.

[Rose Rimler]

This is a pretty miserable way to live.

[Co-host or Guest]

Yeah. And hearing that, I could really see how narcissism can manifest as anxiety because you just have these ruminating thoughts of anger over and over again.

[Rose Rimler]

And that's not all. I mean, there is a review paper that found that they often suffer from feelings of. Of meaninglessness. They're very critical of themselves, and they struggle to express their emotions.

[Co-host or Guest]

So is. Is there a way to help them? Because this feels like it's kind of the worst of both worlds. No one is happy. The people around them aren't happy. They're not happy. Can we do anything about it?

[Craig Malkin]

Yeah.

[Rose Rimler]

I mean, so Leah, of course, had that question right after he. He had his moment of revelation. Cause, like, the next thing he googled was like, cure for narcissistic personality disord. And the results were disappointing.

[Lee Hammock]

None. There's no medicine. There's no pills or anything like that to take. There's no cure. Go to therapy. So I was just like, oh, well, I guess I have to go to therapy.

[Rose Rimler]

So that's the treatment. We have therapy, talk therapy. Therapists might do things like try to help their patient be more aware of triggers that lead to narcissistic actions. One paper described what you can do as a therapist is move a patient from me mode to we mode.

[Expert or Guest]

Okay.

[Co-host or Guest]

I mean, did lynch end up trying therapy?

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah, he did start therapy. It was several months after the big fight with his wife. And when he went to see this

[Lee Hammock]

therapist, she was like, okay, so what are you doing here at 32 years old? Okay. I just start crying because I know what to say. I was just like, literally just start crying. Yeah.

[Rose Rimler]

Huh. Was that unusual for you, crying?

[Lee Hammock]

Yeah, it was.

[W. Keith Campbell]

Yeah.

[Rose Rimler]

Did she ask you why you're crying?

[Lee Hammock]

I was like, I feel like I don't have any emotions. I was like, I just feel like I'm empty inside and I start crying. She's like, no, you don't. You're crying. So you. There's something there. You know, there's. There's something in there. You're definitely crying. So there's something in there. It's just. There's something blocking it. We got to figure out a way to kind of lower down the gates. She's kind of described like a castle. You got to figure out a way to lower down the gates because you can't walk around just like, sealed up all the time.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

And did he.

[Co-host or Guest]

Was he able to lower the gates?

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah, I mean, there was no magical transformation. He says he's still a narcissist, but over the years, it has helped him learn to put some space between his thoughts and his actions.

[Lee Hammock]

My very first thought is typically the narcissistic reaction. It really, really is. It's kind of like, pow. And the first thought is probably gonna be self serving, super defensive and egotistical, whatever it is. So I have to take my time to respond now. So I take a deep breath. I'm like, okay. I have to ask myself, is that narcissism or is this normal? It's kind of like I have dual thoughts now. I have competing thoughts. It's kind of like it's opened a whole new door up and there's somebody else living up here and they're just like sitting in a room. Like, my brain is like, there's a narcissistic part of me and a non narcissistic part of me. They're like, sit in the living room arguing, you know, all day long. All day long. Yeah. It's. No, I. I don't. I don't find very much peace.

[Co-host or Guest]

Oh, that's so interesting how Lee talks about it, that therapy has allowed him

to see a different way of thinking. The quote, unquote, what he says, normal way of thinking, but he's still a narcissist.

But I mean, just that step seems like it's been helpful to him. I mean, do we have any data on other people with narcissism? Like, what's the chance if a narcissist goes to therapy, they will change.

[Rose Rimler]

We really tried to run this down, but it's very hard to put numbers around it because there are no trials exclusively on people with npd.

[Co-host or Guest]

Mm, annoying.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah. And, you know, psychologists have said that people with NPD tend to drop out of therapy. So maybe that's one reason, you know, we don't have these. But we do have some evidence that is promising in people who do stick it out. There are some case studies showing that people with NPD can improve after two and a half to five years of therapy. And a lot of therapists that I talked to told me the same thing, that they have helped people with this disorder.

[Sponsor or Advertisement Voice]

Hmm.

[Co-host or Guest]

So that is how narcissists can help themselves. But on the flip side, I mean, if you are living with a narcissist who's perhaps not working on themselves in the way that Lee is, what can you do?

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah. So this question of how do you deal with a narcissist in your life is something that crises. Our psychologist from earlier, he specializes in. He sees a lot of people who come to therapy. Oftentimes they come in trying to figure out if someone in their life is a narcissist and then what should they be doing about it. And his number one tip is to not focus so much on the other person's diagnosis, but to figure out whether or not the relationship is working for you.

[Craig Malkin]

The one thing people don't do that I often help them get to is just to be in touch with the questions like, am I safe in this relationship? Emotionally, physically, do I like how I'm being treated regardless of where it comes from in this person?

[Co-host or Guest]

If you decide, I mean, I do like this person, but God, they've got some crappy traits that I'd like them not to have.

Can you do anything about that?

Or you just have to take them as they come.

[Rose Rimler]

Right. So if you do decide the relationship is. Is worth working on, you want to stay, or let's say it's like a relative or boss. Craig has a few strategies.

[Co-host or Guest]

Right.

[Rose Rimler]

They're based on this observation that you can actually boost empathy in people with narcissism. There's a body of research on this and Craig has come up with some ways to basically exploit that. So the first thing is something he calls an empathy prompt. And this is basically in your conversation with this person about why you're unhappy with their behavior. You sort of set it up by priming the other person to feel empathy for you while you're giving them feedback in this really particular way that could get through to someone with narcissism. So he gave me an example. Say your partner is someone who can often act very dismissive of your ideas. You might want to say something like,

[Craig Malkin]

sweetheart, you're the most important person in my life. And that's why it's so devastating when you dismiss my ideas out of hand. I just feel like somebody I love and care about really doesn't think much of me. It's just heartbreaking.

[Rose Rimler]

Wow, right?

[Craig Malkin]

Anybody who has a capacity for empathy at all, you know that will melt them.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah, that's like a gunpowder packed statement because it gives. It's so much about how much you value them. In addition to. This is what I'm not getting from you.

[Craig Malkin]

Yes, exactly.

[Rose Rimler]

So that's an empathy prompt therapy bomb.

[Co-host or Guest]

Whereas it sound like you just had a revelation. Is there someone you want to try this on?

Maybe

[Rose Rimler]

Wendy, because you love being the center of Attention. And people always love your stories.

[Co-host or Guest]

Okay, okay. What else? What other tips did Craig have?

[Rose Rimler]

Craig kind of had different strategies for, like, how stubbornly narcissistic people are. So for someone that's, like, maybe not gonna melt from the empathy prompt, what he suggests is this thing called catching good. So here's what he means by that.

[Craig Malkin]

There's going to be moments where they say something thoughtful or kind, caring, where they appreciate you. You want to catch those.

[Rose Rimler]

He's like, say you think you have a narcissistic boss, but one day they do, like, one nice thing. Maybe they take you out for lunch. They listen to an idea that you had. You can tell them, yeah, I so

[Craig Malkin]

appreciate that you invited me to lunch. I just feel so much more motivated to get to the finish line on tasks. So I really want to thank you for that.

[Co-host or Guest]

Oh, that's great.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

That's great.

[Co-host or Guest]

You know, what really stands out here is the advice that you don't tell your boss. That makes me feel great. Thanks. Instead, tell them you're now more motivated to get your work done. Because the idea is that your narcissistic boss cares about your work. They don't care about your feelings.

[Rose Rimler]

Yes. He ties it to, like, here's the outcome that will benefit you.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yes.

[Rose Rimler]

So if that doesn't work and the empathy prompts don't work and you can't, you know, this person's still in your life. There is one last strategy that's I think, worth talking about and especially. Cause this is something that the Internet loves talking about. And this is called gray rocking.

[Co-host or Guest]

Gray rocking.

[Rose Rimler]

So this is the idea that, like, if you're in a fight with a narcissist, you basically become so still and so boring and quiet that you are acting like a gray rock.

[Craig Malkin]

Oh, it doesn't give them anything to fight with. Gray rock is simply when you respond or interact. You're. You're not emotionally engaged, you're flat. You're not really offering anything.

[Rose Rimler]

We don't really have science here, but Craig says this is a tactic that people have found useful. The key is that you give the other person as little ammunition as possible.

[Craig Malkin]

The mistake people make is explaining themselves or defending. And now you. Now you really get things going. Because the more narcissistic someone is, the more they're going to have to say in response to that. So the last thing you want to do is invite more answers or more reactions.

[Co-host or Guest]

Yeah, these are sort of helpful suggestions. But if I was employing these in a relationship, I could get out of. It would really make me question whether that was the best option.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah, Craig was definitely like, that is something worth considering. And he also really wanted to relay to people that if you feel unsafe in your relationship, your priorities should not be on using these techniques to improve communication. It should be on making sure you're safe.

[Co-host or Guest]

Yeah, absolutely. So I guess the takeaways of this episode are that narcissists are among us. There may not be as many of them out there as the Internet would have you believe, but they are among us.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Guest]

And there are some ways that you can try to deal with them. Maybe not so science backed, but hopefully these tips are helpful and if you are the narcissist or think that you are going to therapy is a good idea. Rose, how are you walking around the world differently after researching this episode?

[Rose Rimler]

Well, it's just been a good reminder that, that when we start to focus on ourselves too much, it can be harmful and it can actually, like make you less happy. And it makes me really want to catch those moments where I'm doing that, where I'm like really spinning around about myself, my own legacy, or what people think of me noting when that's actually to a point where it's not helpful. It's making me less happy than I would be otherwise. I think that's a takeaway that even someone who's scored low on the narcissism spectrum, not to brag, can take away.

[Co-host or Guest]

Especially low. I would say extraordinarily low. I would say even me

[Rose Rimler]

can benefit from thinking about narcissism.

[Co-host or Guest]

Thanks, Rose.

[Rose Rimler]

Thanks, Wendy.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

This episode was produced by Rose Rimler with help from me, Wendy Zuckerman, along with Michelle Dang, Meryl Horn and Aketty Foster. Keys were edited by Blythe Terrell. Mix and sound design by Sam Baer. Fact checking by Erica Akiko Howard. Music written by Peter Leonard, Emma Munger. So Wiley, Bhumi Hidaka and Bobby Lord. Thanks to all of the researchers that we spoke to for this episode, including Dr. Igor Weinberg, Dr. April Ilkman, Dr. Jennifer Gerlach, Dr. Betsy Ederscheil, Professor Brad Bushman, Professor Brent Donelan, Professor Chris Barry, Dr. Glenn Gare and Winky Marshall. Special thanks to Rachel Humphries for editing help and a big thanks to everyone who helped us with this season including Jack Weinstein, Hunter, Chris Souter, Oscar Elise Dylan, the Zuckerman family and Joseph Lavelle Wilson. Science Versus is a Spotify Studios original. Listen to us for free on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. We are everywhere, but if you are listening on Spotify. Then tap the bell icon so you get notifications when new episodes come out and whatever podcast app you are using. We would love it if you love

[Co-host or Guest]

the show to give us a five star review. It helps new people find us which we love. I'm Wendy Zuckerman. We'll back to you soon.

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