Narcissists: Are We Surrounded?

Summary

Science Vs: "Narcissists: Are We Surrounded?" – Detailed Summary

Released on December 19, 2024 by Spotify Studios

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Introduction: Unveiling the Narcissism Debate

In the episode titled "Narcissists: Are We Surrounded?", hosts Wendy Zuckerman and senior producer Rose Rimler delve deep into the complex world of narcissism. Setting the stage, Wendy introduces the topic with enthusiasm, stating, “This is the show that pits facts against inflated egos” (00:58).

Defining Narcissism: Beyond Internet Caricatures

Rose Rimler begins by challenging the simplistic views of narcissism prevalent online. She introduces Lee Hammock, a clinically diagnosed narcissist and social media influencer, to provide a personal perspective on the disorder (01:27). Lee shares a pivotal moment eight years prior when a heated argument with his wife led to his self-diagnosis: “I told her to get the hell out... It's so damn hard to live with a narcissist” (02:12). This confrontation propelled Lee to explore the medical definitions of narcissism, culminating in his realization of his own condition (02:45).

Types of Narcissism: Pathological vs. Normal

The hosts differentiate between pathological narcissism and normal narcissism. Pathological narcissism, or Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD), involves a persistent pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, and lack of empathy (09:00). In contrast, normal narcissism encompasses heightened self-focus and confidence without the severe impairments seen in NPD (09:23).

Historical Context: The Alleged Narcissism Epidemic

Rose recounts the early 2000s research by psychologists W. Keith Campbell and Gene Twenge, who posited a rise in narcissistic traits among younger generations. They linked this increase to the surge in reality TV and self-promotional culture, exemplified by shows like Survivor and American Idol (10:01). Campbell states, “We found an increase in narcissism” (17:39), sparking widespread media attention and the notion of a narcissism epidemic (18:44).

Challenging the Epidemic: Contradictory Research Findings

Contrary to the initial claims, later studies, including those by psychologist Kali Tresnevsky, revealed no significant increase in narcissistic traits among high school students from 1976 to 2006 (20:56). Furthermore, recent analyses indicate a possible decline in grandiose narcissism since the early 2000s, debunking the epidemic narrative (22:50). Rose emphasizes, “All these different researchers in this space agree that there is currently no evidence that narcissism is up compared to a few decades ago” (22:24).

Personal Journey: Lee Hammock’s Struggle and Therapy

Returning to Lee Hammock’s story, the episode explores the emotional turmoil faced by individuals with NPD. Lee describes his inability to handle criticism, leading to pervasive anxiety and depression: “Criticism feels like a wound... sometimes it'll randomly just burst open” (32:11). Seeking help, Lee engages in therapy, where he learns to separate his narcissistic impulses from healthier thought patterns: “My brain is like, there's a narcissistic part of me and a non-narcissist part of me” (36:05).

Therapeutic Interventions: Can Narcissists Heal?

While there are no definitive cures for NPD, therapy shows promise for those who persist. Rose mentions, “There are some case studies showing that people with NPD can improve after two and a half to five years of therapy” (37:39). Lee shares his progress, noting the development of strategies to manage his reactions and reduce harmful behaviors.

Coping Strategies: Managing Relationships with Narcissists

For listeners dealing with narcissists in their lives, Rose and psychologist Craig Malkin offer practical strategies:

1. Empathy Prompts: Initiating conversations that appeal to the narcissist’s desire to feel special. For example:

   Nick Cannon: “Sweetheart, you're the most important person in my life. And that's why it's so devastating when you dismiss my ideas out of hand...” (40:14)

2. Catching Good: Reinforcing positive behaviors by acknowledging and appreciating moments when the narcissist shows kindness or thoughtfulness.

   Nick Cannon: “Appreciate that you invited me to lunch. I just feel so much more motivated to get to the finish line on tasks...” (41:36)

3. Gray Rocking: Minimizing emotional engagement to reduce the narcissist’s control and prevent further manipulation.

   Nick Cannon: “Gray rock is simply when you respond or interact, you're not emotionally engaged...” (43:09)

Rose cautions that while these techniques can be helpful, personal safety should always be the priority: “If you feel unsafe in your relationship, your priorities should not be on using these techniques to improve communication. It should be on making sure you're safe” (44:19).

Conclusion: Rethinking Narcissism in Modern Society

The episode wraps up with reflections from Rose and Wendy, emphasizing that while narcissists are present in society, the notion of an overwhelming epidemic is unfounded. Rose shares a personal takeaway: “When we start to focus on ourselves too much, it can be harmful and it can actually make you less happy” (45:03). This insight serves as a reminder for all listeners to maintain a balanced focus between self-awareness and empathy towards others.

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Notable Quotes:

• Lee Hammock (05:04): “Yeah. That night, I was like, you're right. I looked it up. I am a narcissist.”

• W. Keith Campbell (22:02): “I mean, right now, what it looks like is that grandiose narcissism is going down.”

• Nick Cannon (29:02): “The core of pathological narcissism is this drive to feel special.”

• Lee Hammock (32:16): “Criticism feels like a... wound. Like, it just doesn't go away.”

• Rose Rimler (36:05): “I have dual thoughts now. I have competing thoughts. It's kind of like I have dual thoughts now.”

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Key Insights:

• Narcissism Exists on a Spectrum: Distinguishing between pathological narcissism (NPD) and normal self-focus helps in understanding behaviors without undue stigmatization.

• The Narcissism Epidemic is Debunked: While early 2000s research suggested an increase in narcissistic traits, subsequent studies indicate stability or a decline in these traits.

• Personal Struggles with NPD: Individuals like Lee Hammock experience significant emotional challenges, including depression and anxiety, despite outward displays of confidence.

• Therapy Offers Hope: Although challenging, sustained therapy can lead to meaningful improvements in managing narcissistic behaviors.

• Effective Coping Strategies: Techniques such as empathy prompts, catching good, and gray rocking can aid those interacting with narcissists, prioritizing personal safety and emotional well-being.

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Final Thoughts: Science Vs effectively navigates the intricate landscape of narcissism, blending scientific research with personal narratives to provide a comprehensive understanding of the disorder. By debunking myths and offering actionable strategies, the episode empowers listeners to recognize and manage narcissistic behaviors in themselves and others.

Transcript

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Hi, I'm Wendy Zuckerman, and you're listening to Science Verses. Today is our last episode before we go on a little break to work on new episodes. Which means that if you have an idea for us, something you want us to versus, we would absolutely love to hear it. There's an email, a phone number. If you're in the U.S. there's social media accounts. It's all in the show notes. So just have a look at the show notes, get in touch with us and tell us your grand great sides versus idea. We always love hearing from you. Okay. But now it's time to start the show. This is the show that pits facts against inflated egos. Today we are talking about narcissism. So of course I've invited senior producer Rose Rimler to tell me all about it.

[Rose Rimler]

Hey, well.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Cause you did the research.

[Rose Rimler]

Fair enough. I have been doing the research. And you know what I quickly realized diving into all this is that on the Internet, there's all these caricatures of what a narcissist is, but the reality is a lot more complicated and actually a lot more interesting. So to start, I want you to meet someone. This person is an actual narcissist. He's a social media influencer.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

That. Touche. That jump sounds very appropriate.

[Rose Rimler]

Could you start by introducing yourself to our audience?

[Lee Hammock]

Hey, everybody. My name is Lee Hammock. I am a clinically diagnosed narcissist. One of my monikers has become like the self aware narcissist.

[Rose Rimler]

And Lee wasn't always self aware about this, but something happened about eight years ago that changed his whole world. So Lee is a dad, and on this particular day, he was home alone with his six month old son. The baby was crying, and Lee was feeling really annoyed that the baby was fussing while he was trying to get some of his own work done. And he found himself raising his voice at the baby. And then his wife walked in, heard this, and she's like, what the hell? You're yelling at an infant? And they got in a huge fight about it.

[Lee Hammock]

So I told her to get the hell out. And of course she's like, okay, I'm leaving. And on the way out the door, she said, you know what? It's so damn hard living with a narcissist.

[Rose Rimler]

She said that kind of like tossed over her shoulder as she walked out the door.

[Lee Hammock]

Yeah, it was super insult. It's so damn hard to live with a narcissist and slam the door. I was just like, wait, what?

[Rose Rimler]

Cause he's like, why Would she say that?

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Right.

[Lee Hammock]

Why does she call me that? So I sit down on the bed and I'm, you know, don't. Don't. Angry Google. I was angry Googling. So I typed in narcissist in Google and it said. Did you mean narcissistic personality disorder?

[Rose Rimler]

That is the medical term for someone who is diagnosed as a narcissist.

[Lee Hammock]

I didn't mean that. But, you know, let's. I'm. I'm seem. I'm seemingly. I got. I got time on my hands now, so let's go down the rabbit hole. So I clicked on it, and literally, it was like I started reading the signs and the symptoms and things like that, and just. I was like, oh, damn.

[Rose Rimler]

It was really a huge moment for him because he's reading all these descriptions of what makes a narcissist, at least according to doct, and he's nodding along. So it's like, you think you're special. Which he definitely does think that. He's always believed he was destined for greatness. Another one is, you are preoccupied with yourself. Yup. He keeps reading lack of empathy. That one definitely felt right. Was there an example that flashed in your mind? You're like, oh, that was the time when I was being unempathetic.

[Lee Hammock]

I don't know if you ever seen the movie Ratatouille. So there's a scene in Ratatouille at the end when, like, the food critic eats the ratatouille. And it took him back to his childhood. Yeah, that's what happened to me when she said started looking up narcissism and a lack of empathy. It took me back to my childhood when I was, like, in first or second grade.

[Rose Rimler]

He was on the playground in school. He was watching this kid named Tony climbing on a jungle gym, and he saw that Tony was gonna try to hang upside down by his legs. And he had a bad feeling about this. He didn't think Tony was strong enough to go upside down, so he told Tony to stop, but Tony did it anyway, didn't listen.

[Lee Hammock]

Bam. He falls, snaps his arm, and everybody's like, oh, my goodness, Tony's hurt. I'm screaming, I'm angry at Tony now. I don't care that he's hurt. You know, I'm angry as hell. I'm crying angry.

[Rose Rimler]

What were you thinking as a kid when he broke his arm?

[Lee Hammock]

That he had inconvenienced me because now we all had to go inside. And now this is the time we get to go outside and play. Now we have to go inside because you made a decision not to listen to me.

[Rose Rimler]

Little kidley was so angry and upset in this moment that he actually remembers the teacher looking at him and saying, what's wrong with you? And at the time, of course, he didn't know, but as an adult on this day, in his bedroom after the fight with his wife, he's like, wait, now I know.

[Lee Hammock]

I was like, damn. Wow. This is it. I remember texting my wife. I was like, you, right? I am a narcissist.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Really?

[Lee Hammock]

Yeah. That night. Yeah, that night, I was like, you're right. I looked it up. I am a narcissist. I was like, you. You are 100% on it.

[Rose Rimler]

And now today, as an influencer, Lee talks a lot about narcissists like him and how to live with them, deal with them. And he's part of this huge trend where people cannot stop talking about narcissists. There are even people saying that we're in a narcissism epidemic. And I'm hearing about narcissists just like, coming out of the woodwork, you know, our bosses, our parents, celebrities. Let's turn to Nick Cannon, who says he needs help after being diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder. There is a self importance in me, I believe. I am not ordinary.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

One in six people are narcissistic.

[Nick Cannon]

The rates of narcissism are rising.

[Lee Hammock]

In Trump, you literally have the most.

[Rose Rimler]

Narcissistic person I think anyone can name in our lifetime.

[Lee Hammock]

He is a consummate narcissist. How do you deal with these people? How do you live with these people?

[Rose Rimler]

It's even become, like, something that comedians joke about.

[Nick Cannon]

I don't know what narcissist means, but if it's about me, it's gotta be good.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yeah, we're in an epidemic of narcissism.

[Nick Cannon]

We should be raising awareness. Should be like, wear a little mirror for narcissist day.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

I mean, today. Today is narcissist day for us, right?

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah. So let's. We'll put on our little mirrors, because today on the show, we're gonna find out what's really going on here. Is the world truly overrun with narcissists?

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Are they hosting science podcasts? Beloved science podcasts?

[Rose Rimler]

How do you know if you're one or your boss. Her partner is one. And if you're stuck with a narcissist in your life, like, what do you do about it?

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Science versus narcissism is coming up just after the break. This episode is presented by bank of America. Money decisions. Do they really have to be either or with bank of America? Turns out they can be yes. And as in yes to getting your own telescope and saving for a trip to the space observatory in Hawaii. Their digital tools help you create the future you want and help you keep enjoying today too. Do more with the bank that asks, what would you like the power to do? Explore, tips and [e-mail] yes. And member FDIC. Exclusively on AMC and AMC.

[Alexandra Daddario]

There's a black cloud that hangs over our family.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Anne Rice's Mayfair Witches returns.

[Rose Rimler]

Flash is out there hunting Mayfair women.

[Lee Hammock]

You're gonna have a battle on your hands.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Starring Alexandra Daddario.

[Rose Rimler]

I'm gonna take care of it.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Of him. Surrender to the darkness.

[Rose Rimler]

It's not a sin to kill the devil.

[Lee Hammock]

Anne Rice's Mayfair witches new season, January.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

5Th, exclusively on AMC and AMC. Plus welcome back. Today on the show, narcissism. It is blowing up right now. We're gonna dive into the science of it. And we're here with senior producer Rose Ribler. All right, Rose, question number one. Is the world overrun with narcissists?

[Rose Rimler]

So people tend to throw around the word narcissism pretty willy nilly, but first you have to know there is some different types here. So there's pathological narcissism. That's a trait where people constantly put themselves and their own needs above other people and their needs. And it's often associated with this lack of empathy. If that describes you, you could get diagnosed potentially with narcissistic personality disorder. And Lee actually did get that diagnosis.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Oh, wow. That from that argument that his wife just sort of threw out. You're a narcissist. But she was absolutely right.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah. And we are gonna get more into the details of that later in the episode. But there's also what's considered basically normal narcissism, where, you know, you're like a little focused on yourself. You're, you're quite confident, maybe to the point of being arrogant. Maybe sometimes you think you're better than other people.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Uh huh. And so to science, there is this distinction. There's a personality disorder, narciss, and then just regular old garden variety narcissism.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah. And there's a spectrum when it comes to the garden variety narcissism. That's usually what scientists or the media are talking about when they talk about a narcissism epidemic. This question of whether lots of us are moving farther and farther up this narcissism spectrum.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Okay, so are we.

[Rose Rimler]

So to answer that we gotta go back to where this all started. We are going back to the late 90s, early 2000s.

[W. Keith Campbell]

Okay, so this is the historical. Holy smokes. Just let me get my history face on.

[Rose Rimler]

That is W. Keith Campbell. He's a professor of psychology at the University of Georgia. But back then he was a postdoc at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, Ohio, along with another social scientist named Gene Twenge.

[W. Keith Campbell]

We were in a basement office. They shoved three of us in there. We had a little bit of light that came through Cleveland window that we had cut into the basement and we'd talk in our swivel chairs.

[Rose Rimler]

And a lot of what they were talking about was how the culture seemed to be changing.

[W. Keith Campbell]

We were in a period, culturally, in about 2000, that was just the most over the top, self promotional kind of culture you could imagine with the reality television show culture and other things along those lines. So it was just a very. It was kind of a very in your face cultural moment.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yeah, I mean, I remember it well, but I don't think we've moved away from the cultural moment of self promotion.

[Rose Rimler]

I know, but I think right around then a lot of people see that as an inflection point for certain things like reality TV. So Survivor debuted in 2000. Right around there is when American Idol started America's Next Top Model. It's like fame, fame, fame, being on tv, being special. So Keith and Gene were like, something's changing here. And it seems like people are changing in some fundamental way.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Interesting.

[Rose Rimler]

So they really wanted to find this out and they really wanted to get some data behind this idea. They were becoming more narcissistic. And luckily there is this test that measures some narcissistic traits. It's called the Narcissistic Personality Inventory. And what it's meant to do is to measure these grandiose narcissistic traits. Basically how great you think you are.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Can we take it? Can I take it?

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Gosh. When I just said can I take it? I was like, is that a sign that I'm a narcissist?

[Rose Rimler]

Don't you want me to take it too?

[Wendy Zuckerman]

How special I am on the narcissism scale?

[Rose Rimler]

Before we take it, do you have any, do you have any guesses who will be higher on the narcissism scale?

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Oh, I am totally going to be more of a narcissist than you are. There is no doubt in my mind.

[Rose Rimler]

You never know. You never know. Okay, so the instructions are to read each pair of statements below and place an X by the one that comes closest to describing your feelings and beliefs about yourself. You may feel that neither statement describes you well, but pick the one that comes closest.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

It's like a buzzfeed quiz where just a photo of Senator Palpatine is gonna show up on the screen.

[Rose Rimler]

It's not the nerd personality index. Lack of empathy.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Rose.

[Rose Rimler]

Oh, no. Okay, let me put the link in the chat.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Okay, I'm in. I'm in. I'm in. Okay. All right, I'll read the first one. I have a natural talent for influencing people. I am not good at influencing people.

[Rose Rimler]

I'm gonna say not good.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

I'm gonna say I have a natural talent.

[Rose Rimler]

The thought of ruling the world frightens the hell out of me. Versus if I ruled the world, it would be a better place. I think about this a lot. It's number two. If I ruled the world, it would be a better place.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yeah. It's not a hard bar right now, is it?

[Rose Rimler]

I mean, I am no better or no worse than most people or I think I am a special person.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

I really like to be the center of attention. It makes me uncomfortable to be the center of attention.

[Rose Rimler]

I just want to be reasonably happy or I want to amount to something in the eyes of the world.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Everybody likes to hear my stories. Sometimes I tell good stories.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah. I feel confident in this one. The other day I told someone the story. I was like, oh, the other day I ate a bunch of pineapple. It was really sweet. And then I had a bagel, and the bagel was really sour in comparison to the pineapple. And it was like, great story. So that is a sometimes good storyteller.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

I actually picked. Everybody likes to hear my stories. Oh, okay.

[Rose Rimler]

People sometimes believe what I tell them, or I can make anybody believe anything I want them to.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

I wish. I wish. Right? Oh, my gosh. Wouldn't the world be a better place if everyone believed everything we said on science verses?

[Rose Rimler]

Give her a point on the narcissism scale for that.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Okay. Okay. So before you reveal how narcissistic we are, tell me what is the average on this test?

[Rose Rimler]

So when they have used this test and sort of a general sample.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Rose Rimler]

Just so you know, is in college students, that's kind of how it's been normed.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Okay.

[Rose Rimler]

The average score is about 15.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

15.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah. Do you want to hear about standard deviation?

[Wendy Zuckerman]

I do want to hear about standard deviations.

[Rose Rimler]

Yes. That's about seven points on either side. So, you know, eight to 22. So that's like, you're in, like, the middle Chunk of the population.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Okay, got it.

[Rose Rimler]

Less than 8. You're really on a tail end of, like, you're. You're kind of a shrinking violet.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Okay.

[Rose Rimler]

More than 22. You're getting up there in your narcissistic traits.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

All right, how did we do?

[Rose Rimler]

You got 17.

[Lee Hammock]

Ooh.

[Rose Rimler]

And I got 10.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Ooh. Okay, so we're in. We're both normal.

[Rose Rimler]

You're a little higher up.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Okay. Okay.

[Rose Rimler]

Also, I just have to tell you this, Wendy. I found this paper published by Dr. Drew from Loveline. Do you know him? No.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

No, I don't.

[Rose Rimler]

Okay. It was this radio show where they answered sex questions. It was, like, big in the 2000s, and they always had celebrity guests come on. And it turns out this whole time, Dr. Drew was giving the NPI to celebrities that came onto the show, and he pub on paper to see, like, are celebrities more narcissistic than other people? Which kind of celebrity is the most narcissistic? And just for fun, I'll. I'll tell you that they found the celebrity that had the highest score was radio hosts. Reality TV stars, of course.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Reality TV stars. Yeah.

[Rose Rimler]

Reality TV stars got, on average 19.5, which is so funny, because that is, like, part of what kicked us all off for Keith and Jean.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Okay, so with all that in mind, that 19 is a reality TV star from the 2000s. 15 is punked. Exactly. Normal. So I'm exactly in between the average person and a reality star.

[Rose Rimler]

You know what?

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Science podcast host. That feels exactly where I belong.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah, checks out. I mean, that seems, like, just narcissistic enough. But to take this all back to Keith and Jean sitting in their basement.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Oh, yeah. That's why we did this. Right. I have completely forgotten about Keith and Jane, by the way.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah, that's the whole point. That's why we took this test. Yes, of course. So these scientists think that people are getting more narcissistic. Right. And so what they do is they find all these studies where people have taken this test. So they were able to find data on more than 16,000 college students taking this personality test between 1979 and 2006. So then they crunched the numbers, and they found that, on average, narcissism seemed to be going up.

[W. Keith Campbell]

Yeah, we found an increase in narcissism, and I looked at the data about 25 different times to make sure, and that's what we found.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Hmm. Those traits. Those traits you see more and more Wendy's less and less roses.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah, I guess you could say that. And not only that, Keith and Jean also looked at all the stuff that was going on in the culture. So besides the reality TV stuff, stuff that they thought was evidence of people getting more narcissistic, so they pointed out that more people are getting cosmetic surgery. Parents have begun giving their children more unique names. And so they concluded, we are in a narcissism epidemic. Gene Twenge published a book called Generation Me, and all of this just blew up. It became huge. There was a ton of media attention on this. This particular group of young people heard a lot of things growing up, like, believe in yourself. Everybody thinks they're gonna be a reality star by posting their selfie online, their video online. A generation more narcissistic, materialistic, naively entitled. Do you remember this?

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yes, I remember. I remember all of this.

[Rose Rimler]

Yep.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

And it felt. I have to say, it felt very old. Men yelling at clouds to recall a meme that was probably around back then. There was, as someone who was a young science journalist hustling her way to success.

[Rose Rimler]

Hustling her way up the narcissism spectrum.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Exactly. But a lot of the talk did feel like kids these days. Yeah, I was just seeing a pattern of criticizing the younger generation as opposed to necessarily a pattern around a narcissism epidemic.

[Rose Rimler]

Well, okay. What you just said is exactly what this other academic I spoke to felt like at the time, too. Her name is Kali Tresnevsky. She's another psychologist. She's currently a professor at the University of California, Davis. So when she first saw this paper, back when it came out, it made her really uneasy for a lot of the reasons you just said. This idea of, you know, everybody is increasing in narcissism and, like, this generation is just going to end up in an awful place because they can't take criticism, and they're all just full of themselves, out for themselves and don't care about anyone else. Those are quite strong statements to be making that leads to these stereotypes, like, oh, yeah, there you are. There's that lazy youth again. So Kali, I mean, at this time, she. Because she was, you know, a little skeptical. A little skeptical. But, you know, also just like, if this is true, we need good. We need a lot of data behind it because we are so prone to this confirmation bias where we think the young, younger generation sucks. So she found this other data set. It's called Monitoring the Future, and they survey high school seniors every year. They've been doing it since the mid-70s. It's not the NPI, but they do ask questions about things like, how do you See yourself compared to others? How satisfied are you with yourself? How competent are you? So questions that could be related to an inflated ego. So she and her co author looked at students answers to those questions between 1976 and 2006.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

And what did they see?

[Rose Rimler]

They saw no narcissism epidemic. Yeah. So we found that most things didn't change. Oh, yeah. The high school seniors in 1976 were just as likely to say, like, I'm not that special or I'm kind of special as the high school seniors in 2006. So she didn't find any evidence. This data of kids really changing.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Interesting.

[Rose Rimler]

And so basically, ever since, there's been back and forth in the literature about what was actually going on over this time period.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Rose Rimler]

Fast forwarding. What's really interesting is about what's happening today. Scientists have kept doing these analyses since this.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Rose Rimler]

You know, that data was up to 2006. It's 2024.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Rose Rimler]

And so we do have newer studies where they've done something similar, looking at newer crops of college kids.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Right.

[Rose Rimler]

And actually what they're seeing now is that narcissism has been going down. Wow. Even Keith, who was on Team Narcissism Epidemic, remember?

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Rose Rimler]

He was like, yeah, it's going down. At least what the NPI can measure that grandiose narcissism.

[W. Keith Campbell]

I mean, right now, what it looks like is that grandiose narcissism is going down.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Whoa. Huh huh. So what do these researchers make of that?

[Rose Rimler]

So the debate here, I mean, it's funny, at this point, lots of scientists seem to agree, and it's not just Kali, it's not just Keith. But also, like, there's another group from the University of Vienna. They just put out this big meta analysis. All these different researchers in this space agree that there is currently no evidence that narcissism is up compared to a few decades ago. If there's a controversy, it's whether there was a bump for a while.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Hmm. So maybe there was something about that inflection point, reality tv, coming online.

[Rose Rimler]

Well, it's hard to say because not everybody agrees that there was this bump. That's still controversial. And Keith now says, like, look, at this point, it's an archaeological question because it's over. So.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

So we are not in a narcissism epidemic. We may never have been.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah. But so far, what we've been talking about is this test that nerds use to measure, you know, kind of normal levels of narcissism. We haven't been talking about Pathological narcissism, which is what Leigh has.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Right.

[Rose Rimler]

And people with this can be really self centered, hurtful, manipulative. And so after the break, we are going to turn back to that darker type of narcissism to talk about what's going on in their heads. And if you've got someone like this in your life, how can you deal with them? Ooh.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Coming up, today's AI Bytes is presented by Google Gemini for anyone new to gemiini. It's an AI assistant you can have real conversations with whether you want to brainstorm something or prep for a presentation or interview. Gemini might help you do it faster. You can download the Gemiini app for free on iOS or Android. Must be 18 to use Gemini Live. Dr. Sarah Webb @ Swinburne University of Technology in Melbourne uses artificial intelligence to help us understand the stars, and in particular, flare stars.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah.

[Alexandra Daddario]

So flare stars are stars that release bits of energy that spew out into space, and they release enormous, enormous amounts of energy that could power whole cities for millions of years. In theory, if you were to be able to hunt.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Wow.

[Alexandra Daddario]

And it's really cool.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

And so you recently wrote a machine learning algorithm using AI to help us understand these flares better. Tell me about it. Yeah.

[Alexandra Daddario]

One of my favorites that I've written recently was actually a clustering algorithm. It's almost like pattern recognition. And an analogy might be if you're playing with a deck of cards and you're trying to find all of the cards that have the heart suit, you're trying to put all of them together, all of the spades, you're trying to put all of them together, you're trying to find the like with the like.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

And so what did you discover something fun through the clustering?

[Alexandra Daddario]

We did. So we discovered really fast flare stars, some of the fastest flare stars in our galaxy. And it was possible thanks to AI helping us sift through the data.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

If you didn't have the power of AI, like, if we were in the.

[Rose Rimler]

Dark ages, not even like 10 years.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Ago, how long would it have taken you to cluster all of those?

[Alexandra Daddario]

I did the math on that. I would still be sitting at a desk 88 years later, minimum.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Are you kidding me? No.

[Alexandra Daddario]

Isn't that insane?

[Wendy Zuckerman]

88 years later. And how fast were you able to do that? Because you used machine learning.

[Alexandra Daddario]

So used machine learning. The actual clustering itself took minutes, and then it took months of my time to look through and analyze everything, but the actual computer doing the hard work for me was minutes.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

So now you have Time for podcasting.

[Rose Rimler]

Now I have time.

[Alexandra Daddario]

I know.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Isn't it wonderful?

[Rose Rimler]

That's amazing.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Today's AI Bytes was presented by Google Gemini. Using Gemini is as easy as having a conversation. You can interrupt it, add details, ask follow up questions, and Gemini will adapt to you in real time. But the best way to learn about Gemini is to try it. Download the Gemini app for iOS and Android today. Must be 18 + to use Gemini live. Hey, it's Emma Chamberlain. I designed these new glasses for Warby Parker and I basically can't take them off like I'm showering in them and sleeping in them. They're just that good. Go see them [e-mail] and you know what? Have a good day too. Okay? All right, bye.

[Rose Rimler]

This episode is brought to you by State Farm.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

You might say all kinds of stuff when things go wrong, but these are the words you really need to remember.

[Rose Rimler]

Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. They've got options to fit your unique.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Insurance needs, meaning you can talk to your agent to choose the coverage you.

[Rose Rimler]

Need, have coverage options to protect the things you value value most, file a.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Claim right on the State Farm mobile app, and even reach a real person.

[Rose Rimler]

When you need to talk to someone. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. This episode is brought to you by Dutch Bros. Get stoked for all the holly jolly vibes this season at Dutch Bros. Stay cozy with returning winter faves. Hazelnut truffle mocha and candy cane mocha. Plus the new Winter Shimmer Rebel energy drink blends up sweet cream and blue raspberry flavor with soft top and shimmer springs to keep those spirits energized all winter long. Download the Dutch Bros. App to find your nearest shop. Order ahead and start earning rewards. This episode is brought to you by.

[W. Keith Campbell]

Nissan Fuel, your inner adventurer in the.

[Rose Rimler]

First ever Nissan Rogue Rock Creek.

[Lee Hammock]

From rocky trails to snowy roads, there.

[Rose Rimler]

Are plenty of places to show off.

[Lee Hammock]

This adventure ready suv thanks to its.

[W. Keith Campbell]

Intelligent all wheels wheel drive. Adventure calls in the first ever Nissan Rogue Rock Creek.

[Lee Hammock]

Visit NissanUSA.com to learn more.

[Rose Rimler]

Intelligent all wheel drive cannot prevent collisions or provide enhanced traction in all conditions.

[Lee Hammock]

Always monitor traffic and weather conditions.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Welcome back. Today on the show Narcissists. We're wearing our little mirrors to spend a day focusing on them. Which they would love, wouldn't they, Rose? So where do we go next?

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah, so we're moving to this pathological narcissism that goes way beyond us, just kind of being our most arrogant selves. And I talked about this with Psychologist and narcissism specialist Craig Malkin.

[Nick Cannon]

Really, the core of pathological narcissism is this drive to feel special.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Feel special.

[Nick Cannon]

It's sort of an addictive, compulsive need to turn to that feeling of feeling special at the expense of everything else.

[Rose Rimler]

It's about being so self centered so consistently that it actually interferes with your relationships, your ability to work, and can translate into some really crappy behaviors. Craig calls them the triple E exploitation.

[Nick Cannon]

Which is doing whatever it takes to feel special no matter the cost to others. Entitlement, which is acting as if the world should bend to our will because we're so special. And empathy impairments, that's getting so caught up in that need to feel special that you lose sight of the needs and feelings of others. That triple E explains all of the worst behaviors in narcissistic personality disorder.

[Rose Rimler]

So to be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder, the dsm, which is like the psychological bible, says you need to display a pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, and lack of empathy.

[Nick Cannon]

Right. This is somebody who's so focused on themselves that they wreak havoc in relationships. It's pervasive.

[Rose Rimler]

And this disorder, it's not super common. It's estimated that in the US maybe 1% of the population has NPD.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

1%.

[Rose Rimler]

So to go back to Lee, who we heard from at the start of the show, this was the guy that had this big fight, his wife, after he yelled at the baby and he got diagnosed with this.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Okay.

[Rose Rimler]

He told me that this desire to feel really special and important is a major thing that has driven him for years.

[Lee Hammock]

Kind of like the movie. I always got the kids movie references. Like when I watched the movie Coco. I always wanted to end up on the ofrenda, not just buried and gone and just forgot about. You want to be remembered as somebody who changed the trajectory of your family. You want to have the portrait of yourself in the family house. Right? Well, that's Grandpa Lee right there. He changed the trajectory of the family right here. What more can I do to leave my mark on the world? What more can I do? So I'm just not a normal person. Normalcy, being average is painful. It's like death. It's almost like dying. I want my tombstone to be a statue.

[Rose Rimler]

That's a hard mark to hit. And so it turns out that this drive to feel special doesn't always feel good. So one thing that might surprise people is that a lot of narcissists are not happy people.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Mm. That is surprising. It is Cause I guess there is this assumption that if you were a person in the world that lacked empathy, that didn't give a about anyone else, you could just do whatever you wanted, and that somehow makes you.

[Rose Rimler]

Freeing, right?

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Exactly. Exactly. But that's not what we find.

[Rose Rimler]

No, I mean, one study found that a third of people with NPD have major depressive disorder. A fifth have generalized anxiety disorder, which is much higher than the general population.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yeah, it really is surprising. I mean, it's just not how you picture a narcissist, I don't think.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah, but that's the case, and it's actually something that Lee can really relate to because he's also been diagnosed with depression and anxiety alongside npd. And a thing that Lee told me that really helped me see why you'd be so miserable as a narcissist is that his ego really can't handle any criticism. This is pretty common with this disorder, by the way, being very sensitive to any criticism. And so when this happens to Lee, it just eats and eats at him.

[Lee Hammock]

Criticism feels like a. Like a truly. Like a wound. Like, it just doesn't go away. It's just, like, sometimes it gets healed up. It's kind of like a scar, right? It gets healed up, but sometimes it'll randomly just burst open. Like, literally, stuff that I forgot about will pop into my head that somebody said to me in the club, I was 21 years old, and it'll hurt my feelings. Now I'm like, but it's hard. It's so hard just to kind of let stuff go.

[Rose Rimler]

And so he's always on the lookout for his ego getting dinged and, like, preemptively getting ready to fight.

[Lee Hammock]

Like, when I first meet people always try to find a way to take them down, just in case. If it's not physical violence, of course, it might be like, hmm, what is it about you? Can I hurt your feelings with just in case you try to hurt my feelings? How can I hurt your feelings?

[Rose Rimler]

You're looking for weaknesses in case you need to exploit them later.

[Lee Hammock]

Just like, just in case. Yep, just in case. Just in case. Just in case they insult me or joke on me. How can I joke on you back to hurt your feelings or get the attention back on you? Because that's how my mind just works. It's always, like, attacking and vengeance.

[Rose Rimler]

This is a pretty miserable way to live.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yeah. And hearing that, I could really see how narcissism can manifest as anxiety, because you just have these ruminating thoughts of anger over and over again.

[Rose Rimler]

And that's not all. I mean, there is a review paper that found that they often suffer from feelings of meaninglessness. They're very critical of themselves, and they struggle to express their emotions.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

So is. Is there a way to help them? Because this feels like it's kind of the worst of both worlds. No one is happy. The people around them aren't happy. They're not happy. Can we do anything about it?

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah. I mean, so Leah, of course, had that question right after he had his moment of revelation. Cause, like, the next thing he googled was, like, cure for narcissistic personality disorder. Right. And the results were disappointing.

[Lee Hammock]

None. There's no medicine. There's no pills, anything like that to take. There's no cure. Go to therapy. I was just like, oh, well, I guess I have to go to therapy.

[Rose Rimler]

So that's the treatment. We have therapy, talk therapy. Therapists might do things like try to help their patient be more aware of triggers that lead to narcissistic actions. One paper described what you can do as a therapist is move a patient from me mode to we mode.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Okay. I mean, did Lee end up trying therapy?

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah, he did start therapy. It was several months after the big fight with his wife. And when he went to see this.

[Lee Hammock]

Therapist, she was like, okay, so what are you doing here at 32 years old? I was like, oh, okay. I just start crying because I know. It's like. I was just, like, literally, just start crying. Yeah.

[Rose Rimler]

Was that unusual for you, crying?

[Lee Hammock]

Yeah, it was that, yeah.

[Rose Rimler]

Did she ask you why you're crying?

[Lee Hammock]

I was like, I feel like I don't have any emotions. I was like, I just feel like I'm empty inside. And I started crying. She's like, no, you don't. You're crying. So you. There's something there. You know, there's. There's something in there. You're definitely crying, so there's something in there. It's just. There's something blocking it. We got to figure out a way to kind of lower down the gates. She's kind of described it like a castle. You got to figure out a way to lower down the gates, because you can't walk around just, like, sealed up all the time.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

And did he. Was he able to lower the gates?

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah. I mean, there was no magical transformation. He says he's still a narcissist, but over the years, it has helped him learn to put some space between his thoughts and his actions.

[Lee Hammock]

My very first thought is typically the narcissistic reaction. It really, really is. It's kind of like, pow. And the first thought is probably gonna be self serving, super defensive and egotistical, whatever it is. So I have to take my time to respond now. So I take a deep breath. I'm like, okay. I have to ask myself, is that narcissism or is this normal? It's kind of like I have dual thoughts now. I have competing thoughts. It's kind of like it's opened a whole new door up and there's somebody else living up here and they're just like sitting in a room. Like, my brain is like, there's a narcissistic part of me and a non narcissist part of me. They're like, sit in the living room arguing, you know, all day long. All day long. Yeah, it's. No, I. I don't. I don't find very much peace.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Oh, that's so interesting how Lee talks about it, that therapy has allowed him to see a different way of thinking. The quote unquote, what he says, normal way of thinking, but he's still a narcissist. But I mean, just that step seems like it's been helpful to him. I mean, do we have any data on other people with narcissism? Like, what's the chance if a narcissist goes to therapy, they will change?

[Rose Rimler]

We really tried to run this down, but it's very hard to put numbers around it because there are no trials exclusively on people with npd.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Mm, annoying.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah. And, you know, psychologists have said that people with NPD tend to drop out of therapy. So maybe that's one reason, you know, we don't have these. But we do have some evidence that is promising in people who do stick it out. There are some case studies showing that people with NPD can improve after two and a half to five years of therapy. And a lot of therapists that I talked to told me the same thing, that they have helped people with this disorder.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

So that is how narcissists can help themselves. But on the flip side, I mean, if you are living with a narcissist who's perhaps not working on themselves in the way that Lee is, what can you do?

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah. So this question of how do you deal with a narcissist in your life is something that Craig, our psychologist from earlier, he specializes in. He sees a lot of people who come to therapy. Oftentimes they come in trying to figure out if someone in their life is a narcissist and then what should they be doing about it. And his number one tip is to not focus so much on the other person's diagnosis, but to figure out whether or not the relationship is working for you.

[Nick Cannon]

The one thing people don't do that I often help them get to, it's just to be in touch with the questions like, am I safe in this relationship? Emotionally, physically, do I like how I'm being treated regardless of where it comes from in this person?

[Wendy Zuckerman]

If you decide, I mean, I do like this person, but God, they've got some crappy traits that I'd like them not to have. Can you do anything about that? Or you just have to take them as they come.

[Rose Rimler]

Right. So if you do decide the relationship is worth working on, you want to stay. Or let's say it's like a relative or a boss. Craig has a few strategies.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Right.

[Rose Rimler]

They're based on this observation that you can actually boost empathy in people with narcissism. There's a body of research on this, and Craig has come up with some ways to basically exploit that. So the first thing is something he calls an empathy prompt. And this is basically in your conversation with this person about why you're unhappy with their behavior. You sort of set it up by priming the other person to feel empathy for you while you're giving them feedback in this really particular way that could get through to someone with narcissism. So he gave me an example. Say your partner is someone who can often act very dismissive of your ideas. You might want to say something like.

[Nick Cannon]

Sweetheart, you're the most important person in my life. And that's why it's so devastating when you dismiss my ideas out of hand. I just feel like somebody I love and care about really doesn't think much of me. It's just heartbreaking.

[Rose Rimler]

Wow, right?

[Nick Cannon]

Anybody who has a capacity for empathy at all, you know that will melt them.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah. That's like a gunpowder packed statement because it gives. It's so much about how much you value them.

[Nick Cannon]

Yes.

[Rose Rimler]

In addition to. This is what I'm not getting from you.

[Nick Cannon]

Yes, exactly.

[Rose Rimler]

So that's an empathy prompt therapy bomb.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Rose, it sound like you just had a revelation. Is there someone you want to try this on?

[Rose Rimler]

Maybe Wendy, because you love being the center of attention and you people always love your stories.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Okay, okay. What else? What other tips did Craig have?

[Rose Rimler]

Craig had different strategies for, like, how stubbornly narcissistic people are. So for someone that's like, maybe not gonna melt from the empathy prompt, what he suggests is this thing called catching good. So here's what he means by that.

[Nick Cannon]

There's going to be moments where they say something thoughtful or kind, caring, where they appreciate you. You want to catch those?

[Rose Rimler]

He's like, say you think you have a narcissistic boss, but one day they do, like one nice thing. Maybe they take you out for lunch. They listen to an idea that you had. You can tell them, yeah, I so.

[Nick Cannon]

Appreciate that you invited me to lunch. I just feel so much more motivated to get to the finish line on tasks. So I really want to thank you for that.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Oh, that's great. That's great. You know what really stands out here is the advice that you don't tell your boss. That makes me feel great. Thanks. Instead, tell them you're now more motivated to get your work done. Because the idea is that your narcissistic boss cares about your work. They don't care about your feelings.

[Rose Rimler]

Yes. He ties it to, like, here's the outcome that will benefit you.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yes.

[Rose Rimler]

So if that doesn't work and the empathy prompts don't work and you can't, you know, this person's still in your life. There is one last strategy that's I think, worth talking about and especially. Cause this is something that the Internet loves talking about. And this is called gray rocking.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Gray rocking.

[Rose Rimler]

So this is the idea that, like, if you're in a fight with a narcissist, you basically become so still and so boring and quiet that you are acting like a gray rock.

[Nick Cannon]

Oh, it doesn't give them anything to fight with. Gray rock is simply when you respond or interact, you're. You're not emotionally engaged, you're flat. You're not really offering anything.

[Rose Rimler]

We don't really have science here, but Craig says this is a tactic that people have found useful. The key is that you give the other person as little ammunition as possible.

[Nick Cannon]

The mistake people make is explaining themselves or defending. And now you really get things going because the more narcissistic someone is, the more they're going to have to say in response to that. So the last thing you want to do is invite more answers or more reactions.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yeah, these are sort of helpful suggestions. But if I was employing these in a relationship, I could get out of. It would really make me question whether that was the best option.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah, Craig was definitely like, that is something worth considering. And he also really wanted to relay to people that if you feel unsafe in your relationship, your priorities should not be on using these techniques to improve communication. It should be on making sure you're safe.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yep, absolutely. So I guess the takeaways of this episode are that narcissists are among us. There may not be as many of them out there as the Internet would have you believe, but they are among us.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

And there are some ways that you can try to deal with them. Maybe not so science backed, but hopefully these tips are helpful. And if you are the narcissist or think that you are going to therapy is a good idea. Rose, how are you walking around the world differently after researching this episode?

[Rose Rimler]

Well, it's just been a good reminder that when we start to focus on ourselves too much, it can be harmful and it can actually, like, make you less happy. And it makes me really want to catch those moments where I'm doing that, where I'm like, really spinning around about myself, my own legacy, or what people think of me noting when that's actually to a point where it's not helpful. It's making me less happy than I would be otherwise. I think that's a takeaway that even someone who scored low on the narcissism spectrum, not to brag, can take away.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Especially low, I would say extraordinarily low.

[Rose Rimler]

I would say even me can benefit from thinking about narcissism.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Thanks, Rose.

[Rose Rimler]

Thanks, Wendy.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

All right, since this is the last episode for the year, we're going to be back in the new year, have a short break and work on new episodes. We thought we'd bring in the whole team for a citations extravaganza. Hi, everyone. Hi. Hello.

[Rose Rimler]

Whoa, look who's entered the room.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

It's crazy. How many citations are in this week's episode?

[Rose Rimler]

49. 49.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

49. Michelle, if people want to find these citations, where should they go?

[Rose Rimler]

To the show notes. Head over to our show notes and click on the transcript.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

And if people want to send us their ideas for next year, Meryl, what should they do?

[Rose Rimler]

Just look at the show notes. We'll also have info there for how you can tell us all your great ideas. We want to hear them.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Blythe, how did science versus change your life this year? Oh, I.

[Rose Rimler]

You know what? You know what it did? I lucid. I lucid dreamed. I realized I was. I could lucid dream. It was a big deal.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Rose, you. You changed my daily life this year because I now soak beans. I soaked them and then I boiled them. Thank you to everyone who also emailed me giving me instructions. And I am never going back to canned.

[Rose Rimler]

I can't.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

They're too slimy. Once you've done it properly, they taste better. Less microplastics. Thank you, Rose.

[Rose Rimler]

I'm delighted to hear that, Michelle.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

I'm eating as a result. Eating more fibre.

[Rose Rimler]

Wow.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

My poos are out of control.

[Rose Rimler]

Amazing.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Thanks. All right, see you in the New Year.

[Rose Rimler]

Bye. Happy New Year, everyone. Happy holidays. Happy New Year.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

This episode was produced by Rose Rimler with help from me, Wendy Zuckerman along with Michelle Dang, Meryl Horne and Aketty Foster. Keys we're edited by Blythe Terrell Mix and sound design by Sam Baer. Fact checking by Erica Akiko Howard. Music written by Peter Leonard, Emma Munger. So Wiley, Bumi Hidaka and Bobby Lord. Thanks to all of the researchers that we sponsored spoke to for this episode including Dr. Igor Weinberg, Dr. April Ilkman, Dr. Jennifer Gerlach, Dr. Betsy Ederscheil, Professor Brad Bushman, Professor Brent Donelan, Professor Chris Barry, Dr. Glenn Gair and Winky Ma. Special thanks to Rachel Humphries for editing help and a big thanks to everyone who helped us with this season including Jack Weinstein, Hunter, Chris Souter, Oscar Elise Dylan, the Zuckerman family and Joseph Lavelle Wilson. Science Versus is a Spotify Studios original. Listen to us for free on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. We are everywhere. But if you are listening on Spotify then tap the bell icon so you get notifications when new episodes come out and whatever podcast app you are using. We would love it if you love the show to give us a five star review. It helps new people find us which we love. I'm Wendy Zuckerman. We'll back to you soon.