Highway Teardown Tour | 7. Louisville, KY

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Big Dig – Highway Teardown Tour | 7. Louisville, KY

Host: Ian Coss (GBH News)
Guests:

• Ken Herndon (Louisville Metro Council, District 4)
• Marcus Green (journalist, WDRB & Courier Journal)
• Tyler Allen (Co-founder, 8664 campaign)
  Date: July 1, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of "The Big Dig" explores Louisville's bold, grassroots campaign to remove part of Interstate 64 from downtown—a project known as 8664. Host Ian Coss brings together key players involved in the movement, examining why the proposal failed to advance twenty years ago, the intricate politics of Louisville's ambitious infrastructure projects, and whether the idea could see a revival today. Through local voices, the conversation uncovers broader lessons about urban planning, civic engagement, and the challenges of changing the status quo.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Origins of 8664

[04:33–06:22]

• Tyler Allen recounts discovering the "Bridges Project," originally billed as a river-crossing plan, only to learn it entailed massive expansion of Spaghetti Junction (the confluence of I-64, 65, and 71) with up to 27 lanes.
• Realizing the extent of planned highway growth, Allen felt compelled to raise public awareness and eventually proposed an alternative: remove I-64’s downtown stretch and instead reconnect the city to its Ohio Riverfront.

Notable Quote:
“I couldn’t imagine that that is what the citizens of Louisville wanted and that’s what we were headed for.”
—Tyler Allen, [06:23]

2. Learning from Other Cities

[08:09–08:51]

• The Louisville team visited Portland, OR and Milwaukee, WI for inspiration, witnessing first-hand how downgrading or removing highways helped cities reclaim their waterfronts and spark livability.
• These examples made the idea of highway removal—once unthinkable—suddenly real and possible.

Notable Quote:
“You could remove a highway. Yeah. And so we’re like, oh, that sounds fantastic. And so we just started...”
—Tyler Allen, [08:54]

3. The Political and Public Reception

[13:56–16:23]

• The response to 8664 was largely dismissive—even derisive—from political leaders and the press.
• Mayor Jerry Abramson (nicknamed “mayor for life”) and Senator Mitch McConnell were strongly opposed, united with the local newspaper’s publisher against the proposal.
• The Courier Journal’s coverage and public discourse often ridiculed the idea as naïve and unserious.

Notable Quotes:
“The tone I got was not even so much opposition as simply dismissiveness... there’s this almost kind of like infantilizing language... that’s nice that you have this idea for a pretty downtown park... but it’s not serious.”
—Ian Coss, [14:04]
“He would, if he saw an 8,664 sticker on the back of their car, would literally stop and sort of berate them, say how stupid of an idea it is.”
—Tyler Allen, [15:07]

4. Timing and the Power of Momentum

[09:26–16:23]

• Momentum behind major infrastructure projects means ideas that come too late face impossible odds—funding, federal sign-off, and entrenched stakeholders block reassessment.
• 8664 may have simply entered the debate after massive commitment to the bridges/highway expansion was already made.

Notable Quote:
“These decisions are always, it’s too early, it’s too early, it’s too early, and then it’s too late. And it’s too late instantly.”
—Tyler Allen, [15:42]

5. Revisiting the Idea: New Hope?

[17:03–22:29]

• Ken Herndon, who campaigned with 8664, is now on Metro Council and sees a chance for renewed momentum, given generational turnover and fresh attitudes in city government.
• Former opponents approach Herndon for details, expressing tentative new support for 8664 as the city contemplates riverfront connectivity.

Notable Moment:
“I want to do what I can do to challenge that old thinking that we have a habit here of beginning with plan B, compromising to plan C and then wondering why plan A cities keep kicking our butts... We have a chance now to revisit a mistake that we didn’t pursue.”
—Ken Herndon, [17:18]

6. Changing Context—The River and Federal Interest

[22:29–24:28]

• There's growing consciousness of the Ohio River as a valuable, underutilized asset, both for quality of life and as a source of federal investment.
• Bipartisan support is emerging for increased attention to the Ohio river basin.

Notable Quote:
“I would argue there’s probably not a better time to flex our muscle of the Ohio River... the river is an asset. How can we benefit and accentuate our prize?”
—Marcus Green, [23:26]

7. What’s Different This Time?

[25:01–26:10]

• Allen observes that former institutional barriers—like lack of access to engineers—may be less rigid today, suggesting a potential path for “insiders” to actually pursue the project.
• Councilor Herndon remains optimistic: “We need to get the river back and we can do this.” ([25:57])

8. Persistence Pays: The Long View

[26:10–29:12]

• The Big Dig’s own story, plus Syracuse’s and Milwaukee’s, suggests that major civic changes often take decades. The groundwork laid by early campaigners helps set the stage for eventual wins—even if the original advocates aren’t in charge.
• Allen notes that younger generations are now advocating for river reconnection, indicating a broadening base.

Memorable Exchange:
“We’d like to think so, maybe we’re the Cicada, weren’t we?”
—Ken Herndon, [27:20]
“Now we’re back, you know, now we’re gonna make so much noise it’s gonna bug everything.”
—Tyler Allen, [27:24]

9. The Public’s New Voice

[29:25–30:24]

• Younger residents and transplants speak up in support of 8664, criticizing Louisville’s driving conditions and advocating for brave political action.

Notable Quotes:
“Nothing works better than talking to people... I love the city and the people and I love all our restaurants and I never want to leave, but I hate driving here.”
—Audience member F, [29:42]
“Everybody does want 8,664 and we just need politicians to be brave enough to ask for it.”
—Audience member F, [30:20]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I couldn’t imagine that that is what the citizens of Louisville wanted...” —Tyler Allen, [06:23]
• “You could remove a highway.” —Tyler Allen, [08:54]
• “The greatest PR guy in the city of Louisville. Someone who’s taken an idea totally without substance and merit and made a conversation out of it.” —Tyler Allen quoting critic, [14:46]
• “These decisions are always, it’s too early, it’s too early, it’s too early, and then it’s too late.” —Tyler Allen, [15:42]
• “We need to get the river back and we can do this.” —Ken Herndon, [25:57]
• “Everybody does want 8,664 and we just need politicians to be brave enough to ask for it.” —Audience member F, [30:20]
• “Now we’re back, you know, now we’re gonna make so much noise it’s gonna bug everything.” —Tyler Allen, [27:24]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 8664’s Origin and Vision: [04:33–10:10]
• Political and Media Resistance: [13:56–16:34]
• Revisiting the 8664 Idea Today: [17:03–21:58]
• Changing Attitudes about the River: [22:29–24:28]
• Lessons from Syracuse and Other Cities: [26:10–27:16]
• Grassroots Voices and the City's Future: [29:25–30:24]

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Episode Tone

Candid, reflective, and occasionally irreverent, with lively local color. The conversation balances deep policy detail with humor and personal anecdotes, offering hope that impactful grassroots movements can prevail—given time and persistence—even against daunting odds.

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Final Thoughts

This episode of "The Big Dig" captures a crucial inflection point for Louisville—whether to double down on past infrastructure decisions or seize a new opportunity to reshape its relationship with the river, inspired by both setbacks and by the stubborn optimism of dedicated advocates.

Transcript

[A]

Support for the Big Dig comes from Revision Energy, an employee owned renewable energy company with over 20 years experience building and servicing solar systems for local homes and businesses. Learn how to Revision your [e-mail] and also from Safety Insurance, offering auto insurance policies designed to help for when the worst happens. You can ask an independent agent about Safety Insurance. Safety Insurance will help you manage life's storms. In the stories we tell about public works, there is a constant bias towards success, towards the things that actually happened. So we tell the story of the Big Dig, the Golden Gate Bridge, Central park, the Transcontinental Railroad, these iconic projects. We don't tell the stories of the bridges and tunnels and parks and trains that never got built. But that's probably a mistake because often it is the apparently failed projects that can teach us the most. So this week on the Highway Teardown Tour, an ambitious, visionary project that never happened, or at least hasn't happened yet in Louisville, Kentucky. 8264 was the name of a grassroots movement to tear down a section of Interstate 64 in Downtown Louisville that separated the city from its waterfront, the Ohio River. If you listen to our Syracuse episode, the idea is fairly similar to divert as much traffic as possible around the city on a beltway, then turn the downtown highway into more of a boulevard. But Louisville, as we'll hear, has a few additional wrinkles that come into play. First, Louisville is at the junction of three major interstates, 64, 65, and 71, which all meet in downtown Louisville at a spot appropriately known as Spaghetti Junction. And second, this big crazy junction is on the bank of the mighty Ohio river that also divides Kentucky and Indiana. So you'll hear, as we go along, a lot of talk about bridges, several bridges, in fact. And it's okay if you don't follow every detail. I was struggling myself at times. But the key to understanding the story is to know that the effort to 8,664 was entirely bound up in a parallel effort to build a new bridge over the Ohio River. One project offered a historic expansion of highway capacity, the other offered a historic reduction. And only one of those things could prevail. We recorded this conversation at the beautiful downtown studios of Louisville Public Media. Quick show of hands before we get started.

[B]

Who knows what I'm talking about if

[A]

I say the numbers 86, 64.

[B]

Okay, for the folks listening later, every hand is up, so we're going back in time. Tonight we're getting the band back together. And joining us for that conversation, we've got Ken herndon who is on the

[A]

Louisville metro council representing District 4, which

[B]

is right downtown, right where we are right now. We are in your district. Thanks for having us.

[C]

My pleasure.

[B]

We've got Marcus Green, a longtime local reporter who covered transportation, among other issues, with WDRB and the Courier Journal. And then we've got Tyler Allen, who was the co founder of this mysterious thing called 8,664.

[A]

Thank you all for being here.

[B]

Give it a hand to our guests. So, Tyler, I just want to start by saying I've asked you here to come and relive the trauma of a, you know, grassroots citizen campaign that you started and led 20 years ago, because I think there are really valuable lessons and ideas that came out of that for right now. So take me back to the origin story. What is 8,664 and what was the spark?

[D]

Many years ago, I walked into David Caram's office at waterfront development. We have this spectacular waterfront park that literally opened when our daughter was one year old. So it was a major thing happening. Happening in this town. A few years later, I'm in his office, and on the wall in the conference room are these pictures of all of these lines across the great lawn, all of this stuff. And I asked him what that was. He's like, oh, that's the bridges project. And I'm like, what do you mean, the bridges project? Bridges go across the river. That is this massive expansion of spaghetti junction and the interstate. And so I saw that, and I was like, oh, my gosh, Mayor must not know. Everybody must not know. Somebody needs to tell everybody that this is what's coming our way. And so that is sort of what sparked an interest in trying to at least make aware of what was coming. And then we eventually suggested an alternative to that.

[B]

Yeah. So you talked about. You stumbled into these plans that were explained to you as a bridge project. Bridges. Because Louisville's a river town. We're on the Ohio River. Right across the river is Indiana. But you're also seeing all this highway expansion around it. Can you just give me a sense of the scale? You mentioned Spaghetti Junction. What is it? What does it connect? What does it do?

[D]

It accommodates every movement that you could want to make. Because we. We do have a very unusual thing. Three highways coming together in a downtown. They're. It's probably one of the only places in the country.

[B]

71, 65, 64.

[D]

Right, exactly.

[B]

Three major interstate.

[D]

That is a freight corridors.

[B]

That is in downtown.

[D]

Yeah, that is a conundrum. And what we said is, well, you Know what? If they all have to do everything, then that is a problem. And initially they said we were going to expand it to 27 lanes.

[B]

27 lanes total.

[D]

And you're asking yourself, that's big scale stuff. And I couldn't imagine that that is what the citizens of Louisville wanted and that's what we were headed for.

[B]

Marcus, I'm hoping you can give us some a little more context on the bridges project, because this looms very large in the background, or maybe the foreground of everything to do with 86, 64. How long had that been in the works when Tyler kind of gets wind of it and starts thinking about actually removing highways.

[E]

Right. So as you can imagine, a project involving two states and two different political environments, local, state, and federal, was kind of a behemoth. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

So ultimately, starting in about the mid-90s, it began to get traction. There were environmental impact studies done. It ultimately moved to what's called a record of decision, which is basically the Fed saying, go, you can do this now. Now, that doesn't mean the funding's there. It doesn't mean that all the design is done. It just means that we're giving you the federal approval to get going. So that was 2003, and it was a few years after that that 8,664 kind of became a movement. And I think it goes to show how important planning and planning decisions are, because a lot of times, once you get that big approval, the horse is already out of the barn. Now, that's not always the case, and there are. And political will could have changed. Course, it didn't for a number of reasons. But the political powers were already well underway in trying to get this bridges project done. And many of them saw 8,664 as a fly in the ointment, as something that was just going to bog things down and potentially lead to these bridges never getting done.

[B]

And so how do you get from while they're planning to build a bunch of new highways and bridges to we should be getting rid of a highway?

[D]

Well, former head of our chamber of commerce, Doug Cobb, years ago, while this was happening, took us to Portland, Oregon in like year 2000 to see a city that basically downgraded a waterfront expressway. He took us to.

[B]

That's part of our highway teardown tour.

[D]

You're going there. Good, Excellent. You go out there, the Pearl, they've built light rail. It's a stunningly livable place. And we just happen to have a neighborhood called Portland that we thought was a great analog for this. And so he took us there. We went to Milwaukee, where John Norquist, who eventually ran the Congress of New Urbanism, he took out the stub of the park east freeway. So Doug showed us some examples of this.

[B]

And so that it could be done.

[D]

That it could be done.

[B]

That could remove a highway from the.

[D]

You could remove a highway. Yeah. And so we're like, oh, that sounds fantastic. And so we just started. I printed a bunch of maps. I'm in the printing business, and I printed a bunch of aerial maps of downtown, of the whole region, of the highways, and sort of showed. Reprinted the pictures, illustrations of the bridges project, where the highway was getting much, much bigger. And quite frankly, the second downtown bridge was literally in the plan to accommodate all the spaghetti. But what if you said, 64 doesn't have to go west? You could do something very different.

[E]

And I had people tell me off the record that, you know, they thought it was worthwhile and it was a good idea, but that the time was passed, it was too late to be thinking about it. And I think that's something that, you know, communities facing big infrastructure investments need to think about on the front end. Because, I mean, a lot of times, like I say, that momentum can kill good ideas or ideas that deserve, you know, more scrutiny.

[B]

Before we get into too much of the opposition, because I think there's a lot to talk about there, I was hoping to just really articulate the vision. So, Tyler, as I'm sure your critics pointed out, you were not an engineer. You're in the printing business. You're in the image business. What were you envisioning?

[D]

All that highway is not good for downtown. Okay. We have this nascent butchertown neighborhood. We have this beautiful waterfront park. Extraordinary. Hargraves out of San Francisco designed it. It's spectacular.

[B]

I was down there today, and there's like, a car carnival setting up with rides and, you know, steak on a stick and whatever. Right.

[C]

It's the chow wagon.

[D]

The Chow wagon.

[B]

The chow wagon.

[C]

Thank you, Derby.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

My eye went straight to the stake on a stick, because that was a bit of a novelty for me. But it was on either side of the interstate. You know, you could. There's in, like, this carnival seemed to sort of surround it. So on the one hand, I was going to. Wow, they've actually found a way to really use the waterfront in spite of the highway there. But at the same time, wow, this could be really, really different without the highway there.

[E]

And if you look at some of the. There are some renderings done in, like, the 30s and 40s that envision Louisville's waterfront. Of course, this was before the interstate highway system. And there are some incredible renderings of kind of almost like a central park, like green space rolling away from the river up into downtown. And I think when you live in a place and you get used to a piece of infrastructure, a highway, you don't really think about what it could be like without it. And I think that was what 8,664 was trying to ask people to envision was a different way.

[B]

Right. Tell me about Jerry Abramson, your former mayor, because I understand he's a key figure in this at the time. Who can paint me a portrait.

[E]

Tyler, you go there, you start. Well, I mean, I would say, you know, I think Jerry Abramson, we call him mayor for life because endearingly. I think, endearingly, depending on who you talk to.

[B]

So we have a secretary of state we call the Prince of Darkness.

[E]

I mean, I don't think anyone ever called Jerry that. But, you know, he's someone who was the mayor of Louisville at a very young age. He and his administration. I went back and read some old stories that I wrote years ago. I mean, they were adamantly against. 8,000, 664.

[D]

Well, yeah, but also, it's interesting here. This city has been dominated politically by Mitch McConnell, who I believe you mentioned in yours, because he had just gotten in to the Senate back in the

[B]

80s, and he voted to fund the Big Dig.

[D]

Right, right. Remarkably right.

[A]

Thank you.

[D]

Mitch and Jerry, they both came into office about the same time when I was in high school.

[B]

Interesting.

[D]

And they've been there ever since. So when I first saw what was coming and I. I literally saw that, I said, oh, my gosh, they must not know that the federal government is going to do this to our city.

[B]

So they did know.

[D]

They did. Because I literally, one day at some function, I saw him and I said, hey, I want to come talk to you. I got to tell you what's coming. You got to do something about this. And he sat me down with his. The Downtown Development Corporation, the folks that handle that. And it was absolutely clear that they were involved in the planning of it. They were totally thrilled because it would appear from their point of view, traffic in Spaghetti Junction on the highways is what hurt people coming to downtown Louisville. Right. That's their point of view. And I guess I understand that from a 1970s and 80s perspective of the world, but from what I understand, traffic,

[B]

meaning congestion, like Spaghetti Junction was too clogged up, therefore, nobody comes Downtown for the basketball game.

[D]

Correct.

[B]

It was interesting to me going back and reading some of the reporting done in your paper, Marcus. Not necessarily your byline, but some of the coverage of 8664 in that 2006, 2007 period. And the tone I get.

[E]

Well, it probably was my byline, so I'm excited to hear what the tone was.

[D]

It was not your. What he's going to say was not your violin.

[B]

And I'm quite confident the tone I got was not even so much opposition as simply dismissiveness. You see words like silly, unrealistic. They describe, you know, Tyler, what you'd presented as a quote, pretty picture. There's this almost kind of like infantilizing language of, oh, that's nice. That's nice that you have this. This idea for a pretty downtown park that gets rid of a highway. But it's not serious.

[D]

I will say the gentleman, one of the people at the Courier on the opinion page is a gentleman who's passed away.

[B]

I wasn't going to name names, but you can.

[D]

No, he. He actually spoke at the Rotary Club, of which I'm a member one time 20 years ago. And I got up to ask a question, and he literally, as I walked up, he goes, oh, my gosh, ladies and gentlemen, the greatest PR guy in the city of Louisville. Someone who's taken an idea totally without substance and merit and made a conversation out of it. That was the tone in the newspaper, much less in personal conversations. The mayor actually approached me, and this upset him greatly. I knew people who. He would, if he saw an 8,664 sticker on the back of their car, would literally stop and sort of berate them, say how stupid of an idea it is.

[E]

But I think, you know, a lot of this has to do with 8,664, in my analysis, now suffered from probably being a few years too late to actually get in front of some people who might have actually been able to stop that train. Do you think that's a fair assessment?

[D]

Well, I don't, because as one of the gentlemen at the State Department of Transportation says, you know, these decisions are always, it's too early, it's too early, it's too early, and then it's too late. And it's too late instantly, it's too late. Right. And so that is what they said to us the whole time. And we're like, wait a minute. The EIS is not closed. It's just truly Environmental Impact Statement, which is the requirement of these projects. It really comes down. We like to blame the process, the federal government process, but all of it ultimately comes down to political will and the leadership of a community. And when we started talking about this, the EIS was not closed.

[B]

Was there a nail in the coffin moment for 8,664 back in the 2000s, 2000s, when it became clear that it was over.

[C]

The political nails in coffin back then were the Democratic mayor was against 8,664. The Republican congresswoman was against it. David Haupp, the publisher of the Courier Journal, was against it. And that's a pretty tough trio to fight.

[B]

So, Ken, I want to draw you into the conversation here because you are on the Metro City Council now, but we should point out you were not on the council back in 2007, 2010. You were one of the upstarts.

[C]

I met Tyler when I joined this effort.

[B]

So how did you get involved with 8,664 and how did you get into politics?

[C]

Well, I've always, I've been into politics since I was in the sixth grade. So that's all, That's a long story. I love politics.

[B]

Class president type.

[C]

Yeah, all that kind of stuff. But the, but it was such a great idea. It was just, it was bold and not, not Louisville like, because we, we. I said this during my campaign. I've been in office for 15 months now. And I said I'm going to, I want to do what I can do to challenge that old thinking that we have a habit here of beginning with plan B, compromising to plan C and then wondering why plan A cities keep kicking our butts. Then we take a breath and we do it again. We've got to stop doing that. And we have a chance now to revisit a mistake that we didn't pursue. And I'm hopeful that I can be part of that in some way. So we'll see.

[A]

So now with a former member of the 8,664 campaign, actually inside city government, could this idea get a fresh look?

[B]

That's after the break.

[A]

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[B]

It got eight comments.

[A]

But there are signs of life. So we pick up the story right where we left off with former 8,664 activist and now City Councilor Ken Herndon, who has very much had the project on his mind lately.

[B]

What got you thinking about 86 64?

[C]

Well, karma has kind of put several things in place. Our current Congressman, Morgan McGarvey, is very much in favor of this as opposed to before. We use Milwaukee as the example. 20 years ago or this year, the glide trip went to Milwaukee.

[B]

Sorry, what's the glide trip?

[C]

The annual trip to go study another city. We went to Boston once as well.

[E]

So Chamber of Commerce, Chamber of Commerce.

[B]

Got it. Got it.

[C]

That happened. I am now elected and my district includes this footprint. And now we're talking about a connectivity study in Portland.

[B]

And so Kentucky again.

[C]

And so all these things tend to be. And then last night, literally last night, after a committee meeting on Metro Council, one of my colleagues came up to me voluntarily, said, you know what? I know you're pushing 8,664. I didn't like it back then, but I think I'm for it now. Can you give me more? So all these. These thoughts are beginning to.

[B]

This is one of those traditional opponents. One of those, yeah.

[C]

He said, I was not for it back then, but I think I am now. I need to know more about the. About the details.

[D]

So there is a lot of stuff happening now, clearly responding to some desire of the community to reconnect to the river. And I would say there's one way to do all that.

[C]

And I want to share one story. Before we went to Milwaukee, since we're going this year, I wrote an op ed, say, by the way, 20 years ago, we were talking about this, and Milwaukee was our example. Please pay attention. The very first session, on the very first day, the Mayor of Milwaukee came to welcome us, and he took questions. I said, 20 years ago, you took down an elevated highway. How did that work out for you? He said, we're sitting in the Footprint. This building, the arena, the Arena District. That building is a billion dollars in private investment. Right here where we are sitting was put in where that elevated highway used to be. I couldn't have asked for a better answer. I didn't know. I didn't know we were. But we were, yeah.

[B]

I mean, that's. There is this leap of faith involved in these projects. It's like you unbuild it and hopefully something will come. And so it's hard to pitch in just a rendering of what will fill that space. But it sounds like in Milwaukee, you saw that. Marcus, I'm curious for you, you've been a reporter through several decades in this town. Do you feel like the temperature has changed?

[E]

I mean, I feel like more than anything, what's probably changed is because our leaders hopefully represent the changing attitudes of the public. At least I would hope so. I think a lot of people, younger people, especially people who want to see Louisville as a vibrant place, a place that is unique and doesn't just copycat Indianapolis or Nashville and tries to build on its own natural advantages like the river. We all are here because of a river. And not only are we here because of a river, but we're here because of a river that has historically been really shamed for being ugly and dirty and too wide. And, you know, the Ohio is not as majestic in the public consciousness as the Mississippi or the Hudson or other rivers. But actually, there's a tremendous amount of momentum at the federal level right now to create dedicated federal funding for the Ohio river basin. It's one of the biggest watersheds in the country that doesn't have that. And Congressman McGarvey, who's a Democrat, who represents Louisville, Congresswoman Erin Houchen, who represents Indiana, a Republican, co sponsored and have a bipartisan measure that would create an office within the EPA to manage that funding. The state legislature, which is now a Republican super majority, they've created a commission that will ultimately try to guide tourism across all the river counties on the Ohio. So I would argue that there's probably not a better time to flex our muscle of the Ohio river because, you know, if we strip away the complicated political things and just look at from a big picture like, we're here because of the river, the river is an asset. How can we benefit and accentuate our, you know, our prize? And I think that, you know, that's what has the climate change. I don't know. But I do know that I hear more about the river now than I ever did.

[D]

Marcus, I don't say this enough, but I love you.

[E]

Are we still rolling? Because how do I respond to that? How do I respond to that?

[B]

Okay, so that was all very nice and pretty, but if we get, you know, if the city gets serious again, about 86, 64, do you feel like that opposition is Actually still there and is latent and will resurface in the same way. And if it does, can we talk about what you do differently this time around?

[D]

I will say, listening to your podcast, the Big Dig, one of the things that I came away from listening, that was how that was actually a highway project. Right, right. The people who were in that are the people who do that regularly. Right. We were outside the system. We couldn't even hire the engineers because we were outside the system. You know, they couldn't work for us because they work for the state.

[B]

Right. She didn't have the credibility.

[D]

Yeah, we didn't. Well, we also. They would literally wouldn't allow that to happen, that nobody commercially would take our business because that would risk their relationship with the state. I don't believe we're in that situation right now and that therefore what we do differently this time is to get the people who do these road things just doing this road thing.

[C]

Right.

[D]

We were fighting the road thing. And so I think we need to figure that out this next time around.

[C]

And we just keep pushing and believe in it because it should be believed in. We need to get the river back and we can do this.

[B]

One thing I've been thinking about as I travel around and have these conversations in different cities that really I think speaks to the what you're experiencing here is that so often when these projects do actually succeed, and I mean a project to remove an interstate highway, it's been talked about and thought about for decades at that point. I was recently in Syracuse, New York. Syracuse is doing exactly what you are describing. They are tearing down an elevated viaduct, they are turning it into an at grade boulevard, and they are sending the cars around the city. They were agitating for that project in the 1990s, in the 2000s, in the 2000s. Same story with the Big Dig. I mean, the construction happened in the 90s, but the conversation started in the 1970s. And so in that sense, what you all went through in 2005, 2006, was not necessarily the project failing as it was the laying of groundwork.

[D]

We'd like to think so maybe we're

[C]

the Cicada, weren't we?

[B]

It was 20 years ago.

[C]

Now we're back.

[D]

Now we're back, you know, now we're gonna make so much noise it's gonna bug everything.

[B]

So I guess, Tyler, my question for you then is you've been out of the game for a little while now. If things get serious again about 86, 64, are you ready to get back in There.

[D]

Well, what was one of the hopeful things was last fall I went to a public meeting about a subject matter that's happening here in town. It's a renovation of a public space and a young person, 26 year old age of my kids, who was too young to even know we even talked about this. But this person at this public meeting raised their hand, said, why would you spend money on that when you need to get the highway off our waterfront? So it is. Who's in town, who else wants to participate in the conversation?

[B]

But maybe for you, the point of hope is that you actually don't need to be. That there's a new generation, that there's a broad base of interest.

[D]

Yes, yes. I mean, because once again, we do a whole lot of comparing ourselves to a lot of places. Right. And we keep slipping down the lists of cities that we compare ourselves to. I mean, that's been sort of precipitous. Drop here

[B]

to be Indianapolis. And now it's something else.

[D]

Now it's Dayton.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[D]

Actually, somebody wrote. Somebody wrote a piece. Somebody, no offense.

[A]

Wow.

[D]

Somebody wrote a letter to the editor several years ago and said, wait a minute, I thought we were comparing ourselves to Cincinnati and Indianapolis. Now I hear it's Dayton, Birmingham. Soon it's going to be Frostbite Falls and Mayberry like. But I'm not sure we're going to be able to do things like they do. We also want to think we can do something different. Well, this is. This is different.

[B]

This is pretty different.

[D]

This is different, right? Let's just lean into that. And I really think that is a way to distinguish yourself.

[F]

Hi, I'm a transplant to Louisville, but I have heard of 86 64, and I think it's a wonderful idea.

[A]

And so, as if to illustrate Tyler's point, during the Q and A, one of those young residents who had not been here last time around stood up to offer some advice of her own.

[F]

Nothing works better than talking to people. And that's exactly how I found out about 86 64. Because the experience of living and driving in Louisville is terrible. And I love the city and I love the people and I love all our restaurants and I never want to leave, but I hate driving here.

[E]

Can I ask, where did you move from?

[F]

Do you mind saying Louisiana? And you guys may think the Mississippi is sexy, but we don't. It's huge down there. It's got everybody's shit in it. And the Ohio is much more beautiful. So I think a lot of people here don't realize what we do have. And I think everybody does want 8,664 and we just need politicians to be brave enough to ask for it.

[E]

She looked right at you, Ken.

[C]

That's I'm ready. Let's do it.

[A]

Afterwards, I could hear people in the crowd exchanging phone numbers and emails. As that audience member said, nothing works better than talking to people. Next up on the Highway Teardown Tour, Baltimore, Maryland, where we look at a very different kind of highway teardown, one that was sudden, unexpected, and left the city with a challenging dilemma. A very special thanks to our partners at Louisville Public Media, and especially to reporter Jake Ryan, who was really my local guide in setting up this episode. Jake was supposed to be part of our taping, but had to bow out to be a good dad. So Marcus actually subbed in at the very last minute and as you heard, Mar brought a lot to the conversation.

[B]

If you want to stay up to

[A]

date with everything we are working on for the Big Dig, make sure you follow or subscribe to this podcast wherever you listen, and you can also join our mailing [e-mail] thebigdig the highway teardown Tour is produced by Fiona Boyd and myself, Ian Coss, with support from Isabel Hibbard. Our editor is Lacy Roberts. The executive producer is Devin Maverick Roberts. The artwork is by Bill Miller. The Big Dig is a production of GBH News and distributed by prx. See you in Baltimore. Hey, I want to make sure that you know this series you're listening to right now is part of an ongoing feed telling stories from the past to help us understand our present. Our first season is all about infrastructure. The second season is about gambling, and we've got more seasons planned. So if you want to stay on top of what the team and I are doing, go ahead and follow or subscribe to this podcast wherever you listen.

[B]

We've got some really exciting stories coming

[A]

up and I hope you'll stay with us. Thanks

[D]

from prx.