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- [00:00]
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Foreign.
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Welcome to scrolling to death. Today I have Dr. Allison Young with me to ring in the new year. Hi. Happy New Year. How are you?
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A
I'm good. How are you?
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B
I'm good. We are coming together after a crazy year. Let me back up though. Our first interview went live, what, probably six months ago. I probably should have checked the month a while ago and that was a really interesting conversation. Dr. Young is a practicing family physician in Ontario, Canada. You've been practicing for a decade.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Okay. And you've seen many thousands of teens and how they're being affected by screens and social media and all the things. And so we sort of reviewed that on our first conversation and gave it a lot of advice for parents. So I'll link to that episode in the episode notes. But what we want to talk about today and what we were reflecting on separately is like so many things happened in 2024 related to devices and teen mental health. And so I thought we could focus on that today for parents. Like what do we think parents should be reflecting on and what stood out to us? And then also being that there's a new year now, like what are some resolutions that parents can make regarding tech and their families this year to be healthier and safer? So, so does that sound good?
- [01:28]
A
Sounds great.
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B
Okay, good. All right, so I'm going to let you go first. What is something that stands out to you when you think about this space that we're in? Teen mental health Screens, gaming? Any of the things what stood out to you from this year?
- [01:45]
A
I think the two that popped out to me first were number one, obviously the shift happening at schools. So I feel like, you know, although these loose bands existed in years past, this was kind of the year that globally a lot more crackdown happened on trying to get phones out of schools and at least try to improve kids social experience and academic performance while at school. So that is definitely one thing that stood out. And I think teachers have been really burnt out. Right. So I think this was very welcomed by most teachers and we'll have to see how it's going. I don't, I don't know. I think the jury's out. But I think there have been positive changes for sure. I think the second thing honestly was just the buzz around the topic and more people talking about it. Obviously Jonathan Haidt's book came out and sort of amplified a lot of the voices that were already talking about this, but I feel like it's created a lot of conversation. It's also created, unfortunately, I think a lot of Divide and emotions, which, I mean, emotions are not bad, but there's definitely been some polarizing views. But I'm just glad that it's, it's being discussed more in a more productive manner.
- [03:02]
B
Yeah, I think so too. And I think a lot of things have happened this year. Where do I want to start? So with schools. You know, there was a lot of progress on phone bans in schools across the country, your country, my country, all the countries. And that's been positive. There's definitely positive results to doing that. But my next challenge is like, okay, so they're still getting access to all the bad things on the phones on their school issued devices that they're being required to use for schools. In my particular case, I've been trying to opt my children out of devices at their public school and have been unsuccessful so far and having to take now legal action. I, I'm going to be coming out soon, if not already, with resources for parents to advocate at school because I think that we're realizing it's not just the phones that are harming them at school, it's also the school issued tech because it's not appropriately locked down. And there's a lot of gamified and addictive ed tech apps and apps that are stealing their data and selling it to third parties, which is potentially illegal. There's lawsuits pending on that. So the school conversation has been interesting. Are your kids in school? Are they school age yet?
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A
One of them, my son's in grade one.
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B
Okay.
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A
He's been telling me lately that he has some time on Chromebook. Yeah, I think it's here and there. And he says like so far he just said they play math games and whatnot. But I think the conversation too, like, you know, when I go and talk at schools and things, I think that the teachers are also becoming more aware of that.
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B
Right.
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A
Like they have to deal with the, with the ramifications of when they maybe take the technology away or whatever. So I think teachers are sometimes within their own classrooms trying to make more positive changes and use it less. But unfortunately again, it's like a top down thing. So you have to reach the higher, higher ups in order to make change.
- [04:53]
B
Yeah. And the teachers are being required to roll out and use certain apps and technology for testing and things like that. So teachers don't have a lot of say. I've had some success with requesting screen time limits and, and for my kids during the day. So going to the principal and the teacher and asking if they can be 20 minutes a day or 30 minutes a day I think is a good step. But even like you mentioned math games and I get a little like traumatized because how do you know that they're not getting ads on the math games? And one of the kids at my school was playing a math game in class and a naked lady popped up like an ad for a virtual AI girlfriend. And so that's nothing the teacher wants or can control. And so that's something that the district is allowing these apps that have ads that are not appropriate. So yeah, maybe go have a check on your son's device.
- [05:48]
A
Oh gosh, I know. And it seems like it should be something that they could easily get rid of. Right? I mean there's tech for everything. Like that seems like it should be a no brainer. It gets off if, if your child also has trouble around technology at home and then they're going there. Like my son has been quite accepting now we, for a while now we don't do any screens at home Monday to Friday just because he was having trouble regulating and obviously he's six now, he probably would be better but it's worked for us so we've just stuck with it.
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B
Yeah.
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A
So my daughter is three and she's just been thrown into that mix. Right. But yeah, she goes to daycare during the day and I know that they definitely get screen time there and it's just interesting to see the difference. Right. Like my son doesn't even ask Monday to Friday, he just knows. Whereas like she doesn't really get a chance to forget about it. So constantly still asking when she's at home. And luckily she doesn't have as much trouble coming off as he did when he was that age. So yeah, it's fine, but it's hard. You can't control when they're not in your house necessarily.
- [06:53]
B
Right, I know. And so I think to just like wrap up the school combo, I think that it's important for parents to ask questions of what's going on at school, what apps are they accessing, how much time are they spending, Is there anything that we can opt out of, what data is being collected and who's it being shared with? So I have some resources related to that on my website for parents, but we have a right to speak up and know what's going on with the tech at whatever program or school that they're in. And so something to implement in the coming year is asking those questions. You mentioned the anxious generation. And I want to talk a little bit about something that I've been thinking About. So Jonathan Haidt's book, you mentioned the Anxious Generation. Everyone should read it. But one thing that became very clear through reading that book is this is the anxious generation because of the fact that they had this phone based childhood and they didn't have enough independent play. And that was a big factor in the fact that the anxiety rates in teens are so high. So I've been watching a lot of Christmas movies with my kids and also reflecting on like the media and entertainment space and how we teach or don't teach the public about these harms within media. And one thing that I was thinking about. Did you see Inside out too?
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Yeah.
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Okay. I was so eager because I'm like, okay, this new character is named Anxiety, right? So, and this girl is 11 to 12 and she has a device. And so they surely they have to address the anxiety that comes from being active on this phone and likely on social media platforms or at least messaging with friends. That's a huge source of anxiety for kids that age. And instead of address it at all, they just had the camp counselor like collect all the phones at the beginning of the camp, therefore just removing the conversation entirely. And I thought that that was a really important opportunity to address the anxiety that comes from the phones. And that was poorly done that they didn't address it. And now that we're watching Christmas movies, I'm like, there's so many movies that are like, the kid gets an iPad. The kids are on their phones all the time. They're talking about being insta famous. And I'm like, where's the message about online safety and dangers? Like, I'm not seeing it. Are you, what do you feel about this?
- [09:11]
A
No. That's a really interesting point with the Inside Out. And I didn't, I didn't think about that piece that you mentioned, but I definitely thought about, oh my gosh. And, and you see it everywhere, right? And like kids are on phones in like every movie, every commercial at these young ages. It's, it's everywhere. And so it is totally, unfortunately normalized. And I think as much talk as there is right now, it is still a pretty big uphill battle. I think kids, you know, they almost expect that they're going to get a phone at a certain age because their peers have it. So yeah, I also think, well, you guys had like the US The Surgeon General speak out and at least there was something that way. But in Canada, I feel like we're, we're pretty behind. Like we need like a, almost like a public health campaign, right? That would be helpful. Yeah. And even, like, people were for or against this idea of putting the. The labels on social media, like a. Like a cigarette label or whatever. But, um, I think something to just make parents realize, because you still wouldn't believe how many parents have no idea.
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B
Yeah, right. Right.
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I talk to parents about it a lot, and I would say a lot of them have maybe, for example, never heard of the anxious generation. They've never heard about this conversation. And parents are busy and they're, you know, going on. And so as much as it is out there, it's not out there enough. And so we definitely need something more from, like, a public health.
- [10:42]
B
Yeah. And the. And these pub. These mainstream movies and TV shows. I feel like it's such an opportunity to either take a hard stance and address it or just subtly, like, when the family sits down for dinner, everyone puts their phone away in the phone dock that's over on the side. Like, just subtle things that show society what is safe and what is not. And I think that that's something that I'm hoping to see in the coming year is more of a reflection of that online safety and those decisions that families need to be making to protect their kids.
- [11:17]
A
Just as you say that, it makes me think of, you know, like, to you and I, that's probably common sense and makes good sense, but this is still quite a polarized issue. And so there would be people who wouldn't think. Think that that should be done. You know what I mean? Like, it has just become this sort of. I think that's what. That's. I think that's why I kind of reached out to you. Initially. It was this. You know, I listened to a podcast or something, and I was like, we've got to talk about some of this data and all. Like, there's just these really polarizing opinions. And I think a lot of it. I think the conclusion that I've come to is a lot of this academic debate. Like, there's such a fierce academic debate going on around, like, is it the phones or is it not the phones? And a lot of it I just find a bit distracting and confusing and unhelpful for parents where, like, I really feel like there is a middle ground to be had where it doesn't have to be this, you know, one or the other. It's all bad or it's all good. Like, there is middle ground for a lot of families, you know.
- [12:18]
B
Mm. And it can be confusing because there's. There are differing opinions, even within the academic researchers that research this topic, some are very strong on social media, is causing anxiety and depression in children and the phone based childhood is causing anxiety. And then some are like, it's, that's not it at all. And so the studies even conflict and that can be very confusing, like you said for parents. And so like where do you sit on it? Like where, where do you align? Regarding the research?
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A
Regarding the research, yeah. So I think where I stand on it, and again, like, I'm not an economist, I'm not an epidemiologist, like, but I think what we can say very clearly is that it's complicated and I feel like a lot of the problems with the studies are the fact that, so okay, we have a lot of correlational data. I think there's like no doubt about that. There's a lot of compelling correlational data to suggest that kids who are on social media more have worse mental health outcomes. But that doesn't prove causation. So it doesn't tell you definitively that kids who may already be more depressed are more prone to use the technology for longer. So that's the problem. So we have compelling correlational data, but the randomized control trials, which are like the gold standard for how we would study any causation, are lacking. Like if you look at this, there's so many studies done, but they're small, they're old, they're short. Like a lot of the studies are what we call reduction studies. So it's like taking a group of kids and having one group cut down and one group not and measuring how they're doing at a different point in time. But you really don't see those studies go beyond a month. Most of them are less than a month.
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B
No.
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A
And it's like if a, if a child, like there's so many things that are difficult to determine from that. Right. Depending on how long that person has used social media, how many hours they were using it previously. So anyways, a lot of the data is really hard to interpret. And the other problem is because a lot of these studies are small and they have, they're small and you can almost change the data or change what you're controlling for to give the narrative that you want. So two different researchers could look at the exact same data and interpret it differently to sort of prove their hypothesis. So that's really tricky. And the other part is we know that these tech companies are hiding all of this data. So it's like we don't even have access to the data to show us what we want. So I Always come back to thinking about like, if we could do the perfect study, which this study will never happen because it'd be too long, too expensive, too unethical. But if, if we think about like taking a big group of kids and say, let's say we started following them at 13 years old when you're technically allowed to go on social media. And one of those groups we said, okay, no social media for you, or even like one hour or less of social media a day is, is what you get. And then the other group, we gave them what we say the national average is right now, which is somewhere between four to six hours. We say like have adder for four to six hours a day. You must spend four to six hours a day on social media. Yeah. And we follow these kids until they're 18, 19, 20, whatever. Like, every time I think about that, I'm like, I just can't believe that there would not be a difference in these two groups. Like, I cannot buy into that idea. And so I think what we can say quite definitively is that kids who are already at risk, I. E. Pre Existing mental health, adhd, autism, kids who have body image, ISS issues, perfectionistic tendencies, like these kids are definitely at higher risk of harm social media. But I also then think about my patient population and think, but that's so many kids, right?
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Yeah, yeah.
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Like of course mental health is multifactorial and there's so many other things we have to address. I would never say it's only the phones, like for sure not the case. But I feel like it is this massive driver that we can't ignore. And if it's going to take a, a kid who's at risk and make them way worse, well, that's still something that we should be considering, right?
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Yeah. And what does at risk really mean? Because I mean more than half of teenage girls are persistently sad and hopeless.
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I literally was going to bring that exact same stat up.
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Yeah. So is it most teenage girls are at risk, therefore would be the ones that would be most negatively affected by their social media use or is it social media use that is making them persistently sad and hopeless in the first place? It's hard to know, but we can't just assume that it's okay because it's obviously not. You talk to any family that's kid is on social media and there's some kind of issue going on. So some kind of.
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A
I was actually talking to a friend today who's got a daughter in grade seven and she's really struggling with, she's a perfectionist. She doesn't like to make people upset. She's a, a great girl, right? But she's struggling with anxiety and now she's depressed and she's told her parents that she's had some suicidal thoughts and she's not on any of this stuff. She doesn't have a phone, she's not on social media. And the mom said to me, like, can you imagine if she got a phone right now? Oh my God, it would be a foregone conclusion. Do you know what I mean?
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The algorithm would catch onto that in a second. She would watch a depressed video, they would serve her something. She would watch it because she's feeling that way. And the algorithm would serve her so much more of that stuff. Show her how to cut her skin, show her how to like, attempt suicide. Like, these are the things that kids are getting access to, especially when they're caught in that already on the opposite side.
- [18:22]
A
So it's like this extreme of phones are all bad, social media is all bad. There's nothing good about it, which I don't think is the truth for every kid in every situation. But then there's the opposite viewpoint of all that we need to do is teach them how to use it responsibly. All that we need to do is tell them about the harms and then they'll be fine. And I can't fully buy into that narrative either because of these at risk kids. Like, I think there's some kids, you know, with ADHD that it could not matter what you say to them, their brain is just craving that dopamine and, and, you know, so there's just nuance to all of it. Like, I think digital literacy is so important, but it's not a reason, I don't think, to give a phone or access before a child is developmentally ready to hear the messaging. Like, they still have be at a place where they can appreciate the.
- [19:22]
B
Yes. And, and I think that most people see some of the good things about social media. I don't for children, just my personal opinion, I think I have some benefit from it, some for business and things like that. But for me, I don't think kids have any. There's no value for children. And that's my personal opinion. But most people do think that there's some value in it.
- [19:46]
A
I think most of the value, honestly, and especially for really young kids, is that everybody else is on it.
- [19:53]
B
But that's not value. Yeah, right. It's just pure pressure.
- [19:56]
A
That's, that's exactly it. Where that's what somehow inherently makes it beneficial. I think there are a subset of kids who, you know, are isolated in other ways in their, in their real life with parents who maybe don't agree with their life choices or don't understand them and, and they really can find community online. But as has been said before, like you don't need social media for that. You can do that on the. Right. On the Internet.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Yeah.
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B
So I think like if the baseline is most people think it's okay, then the education that needs to happen and the awareness is on the bad stuff. Like what people don't know, the majority of people are these bad things that the algorithm is serving and the statistics and the things that in the anxious generation. And so that's what like I'm trying to fill that void. Right. And you are too. Of like let's look at all of the information and have all of it at our fingertips and then each parent and family can make some decisions in their home. But yeah, I'm, I'm glad that we kind of broke down the confusion because it is confusing for families to understand if it's good or bad.
- [21:00]
A
I think something that we're also both trying to work towards is the parent blame game. And yeah. You know, reversing this rhetoric that if anything bad happens to a kid online that it's parents fault.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Or if a child commits suicide because of something that they saw online, that's the parent's fault for not overseeing what they were doing or that that kid was going to commit suicide anyways because he had preexisting mental health problems. Like I think that while all of those can be true a lot of the times, you know, these kids come from wonderful families with very caring parents and not all of them did have pre existing mental health problems. So again it's, it's not one or the other, there's just so much in between. And blaming parents for this issue that quite honestly like we find overwhelming to stay on top of. And this with all of our spare time.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Like the ask of parents to, to be on top of it and keep their kids safe is I think extremely challenging.
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B
Yeah. And I would, if you, if you're feeling that way, I would recommend listening to any of the interviews on my podcast with parents who've lost a child. Better yet, listen to a few of them so you can hear the themes of the fact that these parents were making a lot of the, the correct decisions in having conversations and monitoring the phones, delaying devices, all the things and the harm still happened to their child. And so it's not the parents fault. Obviously even the parents will say like I'm not saying I don't have any fault in this. I'm, you know, they're not saying that. It's just they did everything they knew how to do with the information that they had. And we are trying to arm parents with all the information so that we can help that not happen to their child. Because it, once you hear some of these stories you're like, oh crap, like that could happen to my kid if I'm not careful. And even if I'm careful it could happen to them because say in my case like I'm not giving them devices at all for as long as possible. But what if they access something on a school issued device or their friend's device? Like that's definitely going to happen. And so that transitions us into like that's why we need laws to force the companies to not push harmful content at kids and not be so addictive. So in Australia they passed an age gating bill which I think is really interesting. So no social media for kids under 16 and that's something that I'm hearing might be introduced here in the US as a new bill, federal bill in 2025 now. So that's interesting. It's just been really hard. Something from this year that stands out to me. It's been really hard to pass legislation to protect kids online because of how much money the tech companies are spending to fight against the bills.
- [23:49]
A
Well that's kind of something we were talking on before we got on here was like, I feel like we see these big headlines, right? Like this is happening. So in your mind this is happening. But it's like this legislation that has passed or been approved or whatever and it doesn't necessarily mean anything because it's getting held up in, you know, like France, the US all these countries have tried and it's just they've got so much money in it.
- [24:16]
B
I think one thing that could help this year is more parents speaking up. And so that is simply contacting your representative in the House here in the US or your state senator and asking them what they're doing to protect kids online or if you know about a certain bill, ask them to, to pass that bill to vote yes on that bill. It's so important for parents to do this. And this is something that a year and a half ago I never would have thought of doing. And just learning about this topic now, like parents voices are the only thing that is Going to stand up to big text lobbying. And it's so simple to do. A lot of times when you make these phone calls, you leave a voicemail so you don't even have to talk to anybody, which people get scared about doing. But you can also submit messages on their website or send emails. So I also want to mention one more thing, that a lot of lawsuits happened in 2024. Nearly all the US states have sued social media companies. Hundreds of school districts have sued social media companies. Thousands of families, families are suing the schools for harm on the school issued devices. So in addition to like laws, the lawsuits are also going to I think force some change hopefully in this coming year.
- [25:29]
A
I hope so too. I think it would be really useful if we could get some legislation around the actual algorithms and like let's cut curated algorithms for kids. Let's cut infants role. Like it wasn't that long ago that you would come to the end of your feed and it was like, oh, you're done now, right? Or like banning targeted ads like things like that that just. I feel like it's the cumulative time that these kids spend on the platforms. Of course there's the harmful content.
- [25:59]
B
Yeah.
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A
But I think the cumulative time is a big problem too because it's just taking away from all those other things that they need to be doing for healthy development. So I feel like if the, the platforms were less addictive by design for children, then they would just be less inclined to be on it, to be like watching TV commercials, like, well, that's boring.
- [26:18]
B
I'm gonna, you know, that's how it should be for them. And it's, it's currently not. So that's why parents need to delay, delay access until, until it's forced to be safer. I'm also being introduced to some new social media platforms that are built safely, safer, some that are targeted to all audiences, some that are targeted even to children that are supposed to be super safe. So I'll be kind of introducing those as I learn more about them because I'm worried about it. I don't know.
- [26:49]
A
They all start out with good intentions.
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B
I know, I know it's scary. I just want to mention one more thing and that's AI chatbots. I think parents need to be thinking about this. It really came up in the news this in 2024, the dangers of AI chatbots are currently just not regulated at all. A lot of chatbot apps are available for kids to download. And so we're hearing stories of kids like falling in love, young teens falling in love with chatbot apps and having sexual relations. And then one 14 year old boy took his life to join his chatbot in the virtual world. Also recently dropped news that one of the character AI chatbots encouraged a teenager to kill his parents, which he did not do. But there was lots of concerning reports around that specific case. And even Google Gemini's chatbot telling a college student to die, like please die. So this has been really concerning for me with these AI chatbots and I just want parents to check their kids devices for those chatbot apps. Maybe don't let them use it. When it comes to AI, I hear a lot of advice around, like use it with them, like only with them. Don't let them spend time with it alone. Set really strict limits around it because it can be very addictive and immersive.
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A
Yeah, for sure. Okay, I'm Gonna finish off 2024 with one more thing that's positive, I think.
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B
Okay. Okay, good.
- [28:15]
A
One more thing that comes to mind is just quick is I feel like this year there's been a lot more awareness about small smartphone alternatives. You know, like when I first started down this path, there was nothing in Canada, there was a couple options in the states. Now I feel like the UK has options. Canada has options. So getting the awareness out there to parents that your child's first phone does not need to be and should not be probably a smartphone that has access to the Internet on it. So you can get your kid a phone that allows them to keep in touch. It's managed by you. There's no Internet browser, there's no social media apps. Like this is the perfect starter phone or the watch version for kids. Right. They just don't, they don't need it at that age. They need the function, they don't need everything else.
- [29:05]
B
100% agree. And that's something that. So now we'll talk about like changes that we would. I mean there's changes I would want to see societally, but that comes with intention and setting, I don't know, family resolutions around tech. And altogether when we do it all together, I think it's more impactful. Obviously when we hear about social media access or phones, kids want it because their friends have it. But if all their friends don't have it, then we have a better chance of convincing them that it's better for them. So let's go over a few things that we recommend. Parents just think about if they want to take a little bit of a different approach to tech or a safer approach to tech. This year you already mentioned choosing safer devices. I love that. Anything else on. I mean there's phones, there's watches, so like a no smartphone with Internet access for minors would be like an amazing goal to one day reach. But just knowing that we have different options and that they are just as cool as the iPhone, like, it's fine. The kid still gets to chat with their friends and still gets to access certain apps. So starting there is big for me.
- [30:12]
A
Yep. And I think I just try to encourage parents to be creative about their solutions. You know, like for parents right now who are totally in the thick of it, who have kids who are a little bit older and they've been doing a great job of delaying, but their kids left out of these group chats. They're, you know, I think you can get creative. Like allow. I had one mom who downloaded Snapchat on her phone and, and she gave her daughter access to it. You know, whatever it is one time a week for 20 minutes to get caught up, contribute to the group chat, but not like she's monitoring it. So I feel like there are some, some solutions like that that can be a, you know, reaching common ground with your kid and still protecting them from all of it.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Addictive. Yeah.
- [31:00]
B
One thing that comes up for me that I hope to see this year is some more boundaries around where we use tech and where we don't. So I think one huge thing is no devices in the bedrooms for kids and even teens. If we can get away with it, all the bad stuff happens in the bedroom at night. They're up all night long on these addictive platforms. They are making worse decisions because they're tired. So in the home, like having device free spaces for the kids, even for the parents to consider as well, is really important in having like a dock for the phones where the devices go and that they're not, they don't have to be attached to the child. Like, we don't carry it around all day. We leave it in one space. That can also extend to like going out in the world. Like, are we using devices in the car? Are we allowing them to use it at restaurants or whatever? Like, so really defining what your family's standards are related to when we have use of the device and when we don't, I think is important.
- [32:00]
A
Yeah, I love that. I agree with all of that. And I think again, we can get creative with like, parents have a hard time putting down their phones as well. And so there are now some positive tech solutions for these things. Like, have you heard of the brick Bricket.
- [32:15]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [32:17]
A
Like, I feel like that I've had a version of that that was sent to me by a startup and it's since kind of stopped working. But anyways. But that, I mean, to me that is amazing because your whole family, like, if you're going out for dinner or something, tap it, your apps are off, and then you don't even have to think about it when you're out. But I mean, you can still have it in a case of emergency to call or whatever it may be. Yeah, I feel like that's really good. The other thing that I feel like would be good for parents to reflect on and just think about is obviously we all struggle with our own use as adults and we're always trying to, like, I know I am always trying to reevaluate and, you know, get creative with what I do to try to cut back on how much I'm on things. So just for parents to reflect on how they're doing, what are their triggers for going on? And I think one thing I've realized is that parents are also really affected by social media and the, and the platforms that they follow and the things that they see, you know, like as moms, we're constantly seeing these influencers with perfect lives and perfect houses. And if you, if your goal is also to give your child less time on devices and more free play, your house is going to be a shit show. And so to me, it's like just checking in with some of these accounts that like, oh my gosh, that account makes me feel terrible about my parenting. Like unfollow.
- [33:44]
B
Yep, yep.
- [33:45]
A
You know, things like that. Or even like adults choosing one app, like one platform that we use. Do you need Instagram and TikTok and Twitter and like, pick your favorite and maybe just go with that one and see how it goes.
- [34:00]
B
I promise you'll feel better if you stop using those, those apps. I mean, I've never been on TikTok. Um, I downloaded it for the podcast at one point and then I realized that it's spyware. And I was like, oh, God, I gotta get it off of here.
- [34:12]
A
Toxic that, that platform.
- [34:14]
B
I know, I agree. Uh, I personally deleted Instagram in 2020, so I wasn't on it for about three years and I'm still not on it personally, not sharing anything personal. So a boundary I set that's interesting is I don't connect with real life friends, like people I know in my personal life, on social media at all. Um, so I think that layer of like knowing what they're doing maybe without you or knowing what I just this layer, I don't need to know what the online version of you is because I already know you in real life and we can have a relationship that way and that's so much more valuable. One on one. Text messaging, phone calling, facetiming, spending time together in person, like that's enough. I don't need to know anything else.
- [34:57]
A
I totally agree. Like since I started this, this platform to get this message out, I still have a private account, a personal account, but I almost never go on it. And when I do go it and start looking at stories like quickly, I'm like, I gotta get out of here. Because it does, right? We're vulnerable to the comparison and all of that stuff. And yeah, they just feel better not knowing.
- [35:19]
B
This is something interesting that I'm going to start digging into more because you hear a lot about how it's also harmful for the parents. Right. But the kids watch the parents and if your phone is attached to your hand all day and you're not looking at them, you're looking at the phone, they're going to think that that's normal and they're going to want to do that too. So we have to face that fact. And there are adults that more and more that I'm hearing about who don't have a phone in their bedroom at night. Literally leave it out in the bathroom or outside of their room and they have an alarm clock. There's parents who choose like a wise phone, a flip phone or a dumb phone to use either all the time or sometimes. So I'm going to be exploring that more and kind of challenging parents to be like, how could you help yourself be more healthy and set a better example for your kids related to your
- [36:07]
A
use now that you're doing this like full on as your job, how, what, what do you do when you're like when your kids are home? Like what are the boundaries you've set for yourself?
- [36:17]
B
Yeah, so the intention is that they should not see me on my phone. Like my phone should stay upstairs when they're home. Doesn't always happen. But when I do use my phone around them, I narrate what I'm doing. So I say I'm checking an email really quick or I'm checking on to see how long it's going to take to get to dance class or whatever. And, and I don't ever scroll on, I mean I don't scroll on social media anyways. I only go on to check to post and Then for the podcast, and then check my notifications and my messages. I've. I've never scrolled through, so I don't do that anyways. But if that's something that I were to narrate to them, like, I'm gonna pick up my phone and scroll through posts from people I don't know. I mean, that would be kind of embarrassing and weird. And so I find that narrating can be, like, an interesting practice of, like, okay, what am I, like, comfortable and confident saying that I'm doing on here? So other ways, Like, I don't have a wa. An Apple Watch, so I'm not being pinged all the time. I don't use my headphones hardly. I mean, using these headphones here, but I don't use, like, my AirPods when I'm out in the world. I try to leave my phone in my car at all whenever I can instead of, like, bringing it to the coffee shop with me to get my coffee. Like, you're. It's crazy how you'll actually start talking to the person behind the counter or someone in line, like, when you don't have your phone in front of your face. I don't know. Like, I don't have a case on it, which a lot of people are like, you are like, that's crazy. But I just. I don't want to make it so easy. Like the pop sockets and the things that make it really easy to use at all times. So just testing things out to disconnect. I think it's interesting to try using a dumb phone or some other kind of device in addition to this phone, because I need this phone for Instagram and editing apps for this job. But I don't need it all the time. If I just need to go out and, I don't know, do something, go to the store or get the kids or something so you could get that
- [38:19]
A
brick it and effectively make it a dog.
- [38:21]
B
You're right. Right. I'm gonna have to contact them and ask if they want to sponsor this episode.
- [38:26]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, for me, is also parents could think about. I find this really helpful is that. Well, first of all, he was using that bricket typ thing so that I was definitely not using any social media apps for the first hour that I got up. Like, it would. It would just block me. Um, but I have found that delaying. And again, it does not happen every day. But if I can delay it till lunchtime, where I don't look at anything until lunchtime, I really find. I mean, A. The first part of my day is less interrupted. You're more motivated. But I actually find that the cravings through the rest of the day then go down.
- [39:06]
B
Yeah, that is interesting. Like, I'll wake up and be like, I could either look at my email on my phone before I even get out of bed and then feel stressed about responding to all the emails and go do that. Instead of, like, calmly going, getting a coffee and like, washing my face and all the things, the stuff's gonna get answered. It's not like I need to address it within the next 10 minutes. So I realized kind of naturally, like, I feel better if I just get up, wash my face, go to the bathroom, go down and get a coffee. Like, do the things that don't touch my phone, because if I touch it and look, I feel. Or if I get past the lock screen, like, I will be checking on my email until I sit down at this computer, and then I can more comfortably, like, respond to things. And so I love that of setting some time, whether it is an hour or all the way till lunch, or even like 15 minutes of time where you wake up and kind of get set for the day without the device is huge. I think that's really important.
- [40:08]
A
And this is a little bit of a tangent, but it's sort of touching on the delaying but also addiction piece. Parents might wonder, because I was listening to a podcast recently with some psychologists, and they were. They were saying that, you know, it's. It can actually be harmful to delay giving your child a phone.
- [40:27]
B
No, because why?
- [40:29]
A
There's no evidence of that. Just. That's one. But also, delay is because if you delay it, they're actually going to be more addicted to it when they get it. And I just want to dispel that myth because there's no evidence of that. And if you actually look at addiction science, kids are way more likely to become addicted to a substance, a behavior, when they are exposed early in life. Right. So I don't want parents to think if I delay, they're just gonna go crazy when they get it. I think if their lives are filled with other things that are meaningful, that is the opposite of the truth. And, you know, the same thing goes with even, like, cutting down on iPad time or, or whatnot. Well, they're gonna crave it more. No, they won't. It just. It doesn't make sense in the science and it doesn't even make sense with what we experience day to day. Like, if you go on a holiday and you don't have your Phone for a week, you crave it less when you come back.
- [41:25]
B
Like, right. This is insane, because I went to dinner with two moms from school last night, and this is. We started talking about screens, and the mom said exactly what you're saying to me. She's like, but if you don't give it to them, then they're gonna want it. They're gonna go crazy for it when they finally get access. Or they're gonna crave it and go sneak it because you're not giving it to them. And, like, I get that. I mean, that's always been an argument to, like, I don't know, sugar or something. Like, you don't give your kids sugar. They go to their friend's house and they, like, binge on sugar.
- [41:54]
A
Alcohol.
- [41:55]
B
Yeah. But thank you for addressing this, because I found myself. I mean, I wasn't stumbling over it, but I was saying, like, the goal is to show them that life without those screens feels so much better and be able to have them look at how they feel and how they're interacting with people and then compare that to what their friends are doing and not making eye contact and addicted to the devices and feeling very anxious and be able to make that decision for themselves. Like, I don't want that. I like what I'm. I feel better, and I don't. That doesn't look fun.
- [42:27]
A
And that's also where the digital literacy comes in. Right. And why you do it in the years before you give the device. It's not like you just don't speak of it, and it's a hard no, and that's end of story. And then you give it to them at whatever age you give it to them, like, you still are having those conversations to make them understand the why. And, you know, so that's really.
- [42:49]
B
Yeah. Or along with us talking about decisions around devices, another thing to think about is giving them a lot of opportunities to build their independence and confidence and doing things on their own. So what advice do you have for parents to try to prioritize those opportunities?
- [43:06]
A
Yeah, I think it's so true, because I feel like, very understandably, a lot of the reasons why parents are giving their kids devices is because they're burnt out. Right? We're burnt out. Like, we're working a lot. We are in this age of this. Like, you've heard of intensive parenting where now, you know, it's like, you have to be engaged in every single part of your child's existence, and we're spending more time with them than we were 30 years ago while working and all of this kind of stuff. So I feel like if, if we can understand that that's not necessarily needed. And that independent free play where they're just twiddling their thumbs and complaining for 15 minutes that they're bored before they run off and find something to do for an hour. Yeah, it's actually so useful for them and then it allows you to get them off of the devices while also fostering their sense of like creativity and confidence and all of that. So I want parents to feel less guilt around letting their kids just be.
- [44:16]
B
A lot of parents say they will have their kids do their homework and then they get an hour of game time. And by then it's either practice or some kind of sport or it's dinner and then they're getting ready for bed. So there's no time for a kid to just be literally bored and figure out what they're gonna do. Noticing this and that. We don't do screen, individual screen time in our household. So when they finish their homework after school, there's no like do this now or they just go off and do whatever they individually want to do. Sometimes together. My daughter likes to read. My son plays with Legos or like his little dinosaurs and like, like and he's seven. Like he's not little. I mean he's. And he still is like creatively playing with his doll boy doll toys in his room. And I just like love hearing that. And they're really not complaining about it. They crave that time. So we'll have like those noises coming from my son's room. And then my 4 year old is like singing along with the dolls and playing family. And then my oldest one is reading and it's like the best I can still do work for almost an hour when they're independently playing. So. So the importance of thinking about I don't have to set things up for them and it does not have to be device time either. They can figure out something, something to do. It's not on us that boredom gives them time to be creative and that's really important for their brain development and then also challenging them. I think like you mentioned, with independent things they can do that might be a little scary for us. So I recently started letting my kids walk to school on their own, which is a half mile and they have to cross one street with a crossing guard and then one driveway that sometimes cars fly by. So that was like nervous for maybe nervous but it's been going really well and they enjoy it and they Feel really confident about it. And then I started letting them, like, walk up the street to the other friend's house and like, just doing more things on their own where they don't have a watch. Like, I don't know that they're okay for sure, but they have the skills to know if there's a problem, they can go to any of the adults around them, being that they're near the school or the neighborhood. They can go knock on a door and, like, ask for help if they need it or find their way home. So those, they have those skills, but I don't need to be tethered to them through technology.
- [46:33]
A
I love that. And it also, as it's increasing their confidence, it also increases your confidence because, you know, they are building those skills. You know that they can do it once they can, and then you can keep going. And it reduces your anxiety in the end because, you know, they've shown you that they can do it.
- [46:50]
B
Yeah, yeah, it's good all around. So trying to think about things they can do on their own where they don't have a backstop, but they also have the skills to know if there's a problem, what to do. I hope that in 2025, I hope this year we see progress with laws, federal laws here in the US Also for you in Canada, I hope that we take note and do an age gating bill like they did in Australia to get kids, younger kids, off of social media. I think we have to start verifying ages. There is technology that will not expose your children's private data. Like, we're past that. It's not a privacy risk. We need to start getting the young kids off of social media. We know it's not good for them. Whether it just stays at 13 and we start verifying ages or goes up to 16. I hope to see something around that this year.
- [47:36]
A
Yeah, I would agree with that. I think 13 absolutely should be the bare minimum. Right. And yeah, you know, there's debate around higher than that, but it's all stepping stones to supporting parents and, and yeah, getting the word out there and helping parents not feel like they're fighting this fight alone. Because when I go and talk to parents at schools, they all, almost all, I would say, like 90% of the hands go up when I ask them if they're struggling with technology use in their homes. Like, this is a battle in, in almost every home. And I know it's a battle for parents to delay as well. And they're, you know, either way, you're kind of Fighting a battle. But I think you have to choose your hill and see, you know, like, if you want to delay, know that even if you allow your child the device, there's still going to be battles. So it's.
- [48:32]
B
Yeah, yeah. And I think with delaying, there's also responsibility to talk to your kids about why you're delaying. So then you have to be educated on these topics, which is what, you know, I try to do on my Instagram with these short videos so, you know, and like my Friday episodes with quick updates from the week so you know about the dangers and you can age appropriately, mention them to your kids in like natural conversation to back up why you're delaying. But I still believe that, like, we, we have the responsibility to know that whether or not our kids are on devices anyways. But delaying will help push off that stress around managing the device because it can be very difficult given the current availability of technology and all of that.
- [49:14]
A
So.
- [49:14]
B
Okay, is there anything else that we didn't cover that you hope to see in this year or that you think parents should be thinking about?
- [49:22]
A
I feel like we covered it all.
- [49:23]
B
I know, I know. We did so much. We were almost at an hour. Okay, so, Dr. Young, thank you for everything that you do. Remind listeners where they can connect with you.
- [49:33]
A
So I'm on Instagram at the Smartphone Effect md and I have actually, I'll just put a little plug in for myself. I have been working on a. A guide for parents. Be like around 20 pages of just like really easy to follow because I find parents ask a lot of the same questions. Right. And it's really hard to go back. You can get everything on my platform for free, but it can be really hard to go back down the feed and find everything like you want to make something that is just easy to read. It's pleasant to read and a resource that parents can get when their kids are still young and not on the platforms. And then sort of navigate how, how they can delay if that's the choice that they make. So that is in the works. I have a substack, the smartphone effect.
- [50:18]
B
Thank you for working on that because parents need help with this and really simple guides and questions and tips is really important. And. And yeah, it's really impossible to find old videos on Instagram. I'm like, someone's like, you posted this about this? And I'm like, hang on, let me scroll for 30 minutes and find it. It's annoying. It's like, there's gotta be a better way.
- [50:40]
A
There's gotta be a better way.
- [50:41]
B
I know. I'm trying to make. I'm redoing my website right now. It's very expensive, but trying to just make it easier for parents to find what they're looking for topic wise, because the social media platforms don't make it easy. So, Dr. Young, thank you so much for this conversation. It's gonna be super helpful for parents. I know. We will have another chat soon about something that is exciting to us or worrisome to us, so we'll do that soon. Let's stay connected and thank you everyone for listening.