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[00:00]
A
Welcome to Scrolling to Death and our special Back to School miniseries called Ask the School Tech Edition. If you're sending your child back to school this year with more questions than confidence, you are not alone. For more than a decade, Big Tech promised schools that putting a Chromebook or an iPad on every desk and replacing traditional instruction with personalized, data driven technology would improve learning. Instead, parents like us have watched reading and math scores decline while our concerns about their attention, critical thinking skills, social development and student well being have continued to grow. If you've ever wondered whether all this technology is actually helping your child learn, your concerns are valid. And you're certainly not the only parent asking these questions. That's why I asked parents in the Scrolling to Death community to tell me what they're most concerned about heading into the school year. Throughout August, we're going to be bringing your biggest questions directly to four leading experts in child development, education, technology and mental health. I'm bringing in a neuroscientist, a school superintendent, people who study learning and online safety for their jobs. Together we're going to tackle the issues that us parents are facing right now. From school issued devices and AI use at school, to screen time and student privacy and what healthy technology use and can actually look like. My goal has never been to create more fear. It's to equip you with practical, evidence based advice so you can make confident decisions for your family this school year. New episodes of Ask the Experts School Tech Edition will be released every Monday throughout August. This special miniseries is made possible through a generous donation from Buckets Over Bullying, a nonprofit organization committed to eliminating cyberbullying among kids and teens. For additional resources, parent guides and tools to help you advocate for healthier technology use at school, visit techsafelearning.org thank you so much for joining me. Let's get started. Today we are joined by Dr. Greg Taranto, the superintendent of the Cannon McMillan School District in Pennsylvania. Dr. Taranto has worked in education for 27 years in different roles, including many years as a teacher and a school principal. He's here to help us bridge the gap between parents and schools to give us an inside look into how technology decisions are made at school and how we can work together to put kids and their well being back at the forefront of these decisions.
[02:39]
B
I was teaching science at our middle school and teaching some lessons. Before class would start, I would hear my students talk about being in AOL chat rooms and I had no idea what they're talking about so I had to ask them like what are you talking about AO chat chat rooms. So they, they would explain what we go at night, we go in these chat rooms and we have conversations with our friends or other people we meet online.
[03:07]
A
Yeah.
[03:07]
B
And I remember asking them, like, how do you know who you're talking to? They said, well, they tell us who they are. I said, well, how do you actually know that's who they are? So that sparks some interest in looking into and researching into that. And again, that's 20 plus years ago.
[03:26]
A
I remember those AOL chat rooms. I got into trouble. My parents,
[03:32]
B
I would have been your teacher telling you, be careful. So I asked my principal at the time, I said, hey, can I spend a. Just a class on Internet safety, like being safe, and wow. And she's like, absolutely, go for it. And from there it turned into, can I do like an evening talk with parents that have kids online that are doing these things? Absolutely. So I spent a good amount of time each year I would do a presentation on Internet safety. And then that just naturally evolved to social media because social media ends up taking over the show in 2010, 11 12ish range. Like, what's going on with brain chemistry? Why is this catching on so much in society and with our kids? And then being a principal for so long, I was a middle school principal almost 20 years, seeing how that changed discipline and what was going on. Students that would not be on the same team or on the same bus or never really see each other walk into the school and have a conflict instantly. Why is that occurring? Well, something happened on social media the night before and it spills into the school. And then they would bring in their show, their screens, and I'm like, it's a school night. You're up on your phone at 2am what is going on? Why are you on your phone at 2am? That really changed the discipline atmosphere of schooling, quite honestly. And if you talk to principals today, their number one challenge right now is what's occurring online on social media and how it spills into schools constantly. It's a constant battle. But also the, you know, what's going on with that ripple effect with being on screen so long? Well, you're not as active, you're not exercising that much. What's that influence on the body? You're not sleeping as much. What's that influence on the body? So it's just a strong interest there and just following leading people out there, such as yourself, Jonathan Haidt, Anna Lemke, Dr. Jared Horvath, who's actually speaking for us at our opening Day session for our teachers on August 20th.
[05:39]
A
So yeah, today he'll be in the series too.
[05:43]
B
Great. Wow. He's amazing.
[05:47]
A
So I wonder then because you know, it started with the phones, kids getting access to social media, it affecting their development, causing issues with kids at school, even though that was happening off of school. But then we introduced school issued devices where kids also can get around safeguards and get access to some of these things. I wonder what if you could take us back to that time when kids started getting issued devices at school and then one to one devices. How was that experience for you?
[06:19]
B
We've been pretty careful with that. Now this past spring we made the announcement that grades K1 and 2 is going to be screen free, completely screen free. So that we made that announcement there and it's been overwhelmingly positive response from parents and teachers at those grade levels. But it's been part of a, a reduced screen time initiative the past couple years. Nikki. So it's not like, hey, we just decided to do this. It was minimal screen time in those grade levels, a little bit more in second grade. And I liked, I talked to my K through 6 assistant superintendent. We had a discussion. I'm like, you know, this is the time. Now we're moving this direction. Let's take this final step. Cut it out and then continue that reduction of screen time. Grades three through 12, we do one to one at the high school only. And that's the only grade levels we do one to one. So starting in ninth grade they do get an issued crush Chromebook. We have Chromebooks. Students have Chromebook access in our schools. Next year will be starting in grade three, but it is with a reduced function. It's, it's the. Okay, you wrote, you wrote an essay. Let's type it out. We are eliminating edtech learning platforms at our elementary level. So we're eliminating ixl. We've eliminated Reflex math. So we will not be utilizing those tools whatsoever. Again, if you just, if you, if you follow the research, follow the literature, it doesn't lead you in that direction, it leads you in the opposite direction. And literature says, the research says the number one determining factor on student achievement is the teacher. So if it keeps pointing to the in school factor, if it keeps pointing to the teacher, why are we doing things to take the student away from the teacher? We want to maximize that time with the teacher and the students. Maximize that human to human connection as much as possible. Student, student, teacher to student as possible. We need to maximize the time we have with these students. And it's not that much we have to make sure. We're leaning into what does the research say as far as best practice, how does the brain learn? What are best pedagogy practices of the brain learning? None of that ever leads to putting in front of a computer program a learning platform. It's always the teacher and the student in solid pedagogy practices.
[08:40]
A
Right. And I think we were at schools, were sold, you know, big promises by the tech companies maybe a decade ago and since then. And so would you agree that they didn't deliver on that promise?
[08:54]
B
Absolutely. And I was on board with that. A colleague and I.
[08:58]
A
Everybody was.
[08:58]
B
Yeah. We wrote an article called Powering up, and it was talking about, hey, we got to get our students ready for the 21st century, infuse tech in their everyday lives. And, you know, we're all on board. My school was the first school to adopt Chromebooks. I went out to a business, a local business. They donated money. I said, hey, they have these new laptops out. They don't cost $1,500. They cost $150. We get put Chromebooks. So this is coming from someone who was firsthand involved with it. But you cannot ignore the research time and time again that's out over and over again. It's overwhelming. So if we preach growth mindset to our students, as educators and as educational, Educational leaders, we should also have a growth mindset and be willing to pivot when we are presented with new information. And that's what we're doing, and information's coming in, we're pivoting. We know what Covid did. It exacerbated us. We needed the devices. But it was at that time where it just took over. And we need to go swing back that pendulum back to center and understand the most important way for people to learn is from other people.
[10:14]
A
Absolutely. And not robots. Did you see that school in New York that put a robot in the classroom?
[10:20]
B
Thank goodness they went the other direction. But that was terrifying for me. And AI is now. It's everything we've been concerned about on steroids. Right. And at time, now than ever, we have to preserve human thought. If that's not occurring in the skulls, where is going to occur? And it's scary because AI is. They're pushing AI push my conferences, my associations, I'm associated with. Everything is tech and AI, tech and AI. You can't get around it. It's baffling for me to understand as academics, like, are we not reading what the literature says? Are we not reading what the Research
[11:01]
A
says, why do you think that is? Why do you think schools are continuing to push so hard on AI? And I have some questions from parents about AI I would love your input on. But are schools ignor, ignoring it? Are schools still buying the promise of it? Are schools thinking, well, it's an AI world and we need to get our kids ready for it?
[11:20]
B
Yeah. I think it's born out of ignorance and it's the cat's out of the bag, you might as well jump on board. Right. You might as well go with it because it's here and it's here to stay. And I think it's a nonsense argument because again, if we understand AI will be here and adults that have a strong knowledge set and a problem solving established in their brain already, sure, you could use it as an efficiency tool. Absolutely. But if you don't have the skill sets and the knowledge set to begin with, you cannot jump on with AI and say, well, I'm going to make learning efficient. Because learning is not efficiency. Learning is about productive struggle in the brain. When you go through this productive struggle process in your brain and you form schema, concepts form, and that gets lodged in your long term memory, AI bypasses that. You go into a passive state, study after study. MIT places that really want AI to work, they're studying this and they're like, they're looking at brain scans. You're like, your brain's in a super passive state. Right. The analogy I use with teachers and parents is it's like lifting weights. Right. So your body responds to that stress. I'm going to lift the weight. If I pick up five pounds, I could do that forever. Is it going to stimulate a response? My muscle is going to grow? No. If I then pick up £30 and I start to lift those weights and it provides a stress on the muscle, your body's going to say, respond that, say, you know what? I didn't like that stress. I'm going to respond appropriately. I'm going to grow some muscle. So the next time you present that stress to me, I will be ready for that. Your brain's the same way. When you present a struggle in your brain to remember something or make connections, if you're actually engaging with it, your brain will not want to go through the same struggle over again. So it will learn those connections. If you introduce AI to a first grader and it's doing all the work for them, they'll never have to go through a productive struggle. They'll never have to have that understanding.
[13:23]
A
Right? Right. And A lot of schools are starting to introduce Google, Gemini or sometimes chatgpt as well. I believe typically they're waiting until middle school because technically you have to be 13 to use these products per their, the company guidelines themselves. And that has a lot to do with data collection and a law called COPPA and parent, you know, cutting parents out of having to give approval for their data collection. That happens at 13. I wonder if you feel that AI use is safe or beneficial even starting in middle school.
[13:57]
B
No, it's not. Here the only AI we have is on our tech ed classes, which we think that's where it belongs. So we have some AI robotics that they utilize starting in fifth grade and we have a really robust robotics tech ed program. So while we're reducing screen time, we have one of the best tech ed programs around as far as technology education, which we think that's where the bulk of this technology belongs. The exposure to STREAM should be in tech ed classes, not your core subject classes. So we do not have AI in the hands of students at all. We did some piloting at the high school level with some English essay type of writing with it and did not see the benefit of it.
[14:39]
A
Okay, so for parents, a lot of parents wanted to know how they can opt out of AI use if their school loads it up onto these devices that their kids use.
[14:50]
B
Well, one, it's communicate with your school administrator as far as asking specifically what is being utilized, what is, what is and what is not being utilized? As you said, is it open, is it closed? And as a parent you have a lot of rights as far as opting out of certain things and asking for alternative curricula or resources in that regard. So it really depends on your state, the policy and your school districts and what you can or can't do. We give parents a lot of autonomy in that regard. They don't have to worry about the AI in our classrooms. But if there's a novel that they don't agree with as far as it goes against a certain religion, then by all means there's a process to make a request and get an alternative type of novel or assignment in that regard. So I'm not sure if that's super helpful, but these are new waters for sure when it comes to AI for everybody.
[15:46]
A
And I think just the opting out conversation in general, you know, parents are asking what, what legal rights do I have? And the laws just don't exist yet. And it is sort of a district by district conversation. And but like you said, parents do have rights and a Lot of parents express that they want more control over what kids are accessing at school. And so a lot of parents did ask me, is there a way to see what programs, apps, games, websites my child is using throughout their day on the device? And for me, I went, I made that request directly to the principal and the teachers. What, what is my child going to access this year? And then I went into the classroom and asked to take a look at it and poke around on the device. So those are some things I think parents just don't realize that they, they can do and I think starting there. But any other thoughts around how parents can get involved and be more aware of what their kids are doing on those devices?
[16:48]
B
The school district's curricula resources, either if it's a textbook or it's a program, should be fully accessible to that parent. And they have the complete right to ask for those resources, to review them, to look at them completely. And if a, and a principal or administrator or teacher doesn't know exactly what they have access to, that's a problem. We have pretty strict tech tools in place. We know exactly what they can and cannot utilize, and we're pretty strict with that, like when our students don't have access to YouTube and things of that nature. So we're pretty strict with what they can't access. Our firewall is pretty strong. But kids find a way. And when we find a way, our tech departments are always monitoring, seeing, okay, how did he get around that? Yeah, let's block that now.
[17:37]
A
Right. And that's always going to happen. Kids are going to, you know, use VPNs or find these workarounds and share them with each other. And I know districts are doing the best they can to try to monitor, but I think when it comes to screen time limits and just less time on those screens, less one on one device use in the younger grades, less sending them home with kids so that kids are on them at home. All of that helps to avoid them having the time to figure out how to find their way around things, right?
[18:08]
B
Sure, Absolutely. I agree.
[18:09]
A
For parents who just want to opt out, and that's particularly for the lower grades because a lot of schools do give kids access to devices starting in kindergarten. Luckily, you know, you told me that yours pushed it up to third grade, and that's incredible. But for parents that want to opt out. Any advice there? Sometimes I wonder if we can just not sign the Internet consent part of the paperwork that you fill out at the beginning of the year. But any, any feedback for parents on how we can just try to opt.
[18:38]
B
Yeah, that's specific to, that's going to be specific to that school district, their policy. But I would be surprised if there, if there was not a way to opt out. Now here's the problem Nikki, is a lot of districts, they want all in on one to one. So all their resources are then essentially digital as well. That could be a problem. Like do they have actually hard copy textbooks or workbooks they, that the students can have access to? If they do, it should be much easier to opt out and have, have access to those resources or about hard copies textbooks as much as possible. If that text. If we're looking at resource and they don't have that as a resource, we don't look at it. So that's through high school. So and we've been doing that for a number of years now. So we avoid digital if we can. And then I'll ask. I can't name a subject actually right now that's just digital. It's, it's, it's textbook workbooks. We want kids with pencils in our hands. We want paper, pencil as much as possible.
[19:41]
A
So for a parent who wants to engage and start that conversation with can my child have, you know, paper versions of, of the math work or of the math work that they're doing at school? Would you recommend going to the teacher first with CCing the principal, do you go above? I mean, because this, this does end up getting escalated pretty quickly. Like what' the kind of cadence that you would recommend or where would they start?
[20:04]
B
Always, always recommend, follow the chain of command and that's that in this situation it would be to make the request to the teacher first and then if that's not granted, then the principal and then from there director of curriculum or assistant superintendent, then superintendent and that from there would be the school board.
[20:23]
A
In some states you are allowed to opt out of testing. Testing is heavily virtual and as far as I understand, schools rely on the test results for funding. But personally I don't want my kids on devices many hours from several days up to a week or so. And so I opt out and I'll hear of a lot of parents who are doing that. I wonder if this is something that frustrates you because it's harmful to the school overall to not get those test results or if it's a step towards just lessening the reliance on screens overall. What are your thoughts on testing and opting out?
[21:02]
B
Well, unfortunately, Pennsylvania moved towards mandatory online testing this past full year. It was optional for a few years we stuck to a traditional paper and pencil testing and they made it mandatory this past school year. And I was quite disappointed in that decision, knowing that we should be going the opposite direction with less screens. So I understand where parents are coming from. First you have the testing in itself that can be quite intrusive. So you know, reading test, math test, science test, those tests can take up to about three weeks of time to take implement at our lower grades. Wow. And that's a lot of lost instructional time. Right now we're talking about putting more lines. So I don't have my third graders on Chromebooks so much at all. And now I'm asking them to take these tests on. And so the teachers are stressed out because their students are not on Chromebooks that much. We don't want them on the Chromebooks. But then the state's saying, by the way, now you got to take this test on a Chromebook. You have to type an essay on a Chromebook.
[22:13]
A
No wonder it takes three weeks.
[22:15]
B
Yeah, it takes a long time and it's frustrating. So I understand when parents opt out, it does hurt the school or school district when a parent opts out because you're only allowed so many opt outs.
[22:26]
A
Okay.
[22:27]
B
And then you get dinged for those opt outs for, for Pennsylvania, if it goes below 95%. We don't discourage parents. If they want to opt out, they opt out. They have to opt out for religious reasons only in Pennsylvania that's could be the only reason why they opt out. But if they opt out, I completely understand why. And we don't try to discourage it. We try to talk to legislators. I try to ask parents to talk to legislators because that's where it's going to change. Taught your legislators because it's not fair. You're putting a school in between the parent and what's kind of what right by the child and the school gets punished as a result. But I don't begrudge parents when they opt their kids out of standardized tests, especially when they're on an online format.
[23:08]
A
Okay. So it's helpful to put pressure on the state, on the state legislators to go back to some analog testing to express their frustration. Who would be our direct point of contact? Is it your House representative for that or is there a person on the state board making the decision? Where do we direct?
[23:28]
B
Yeah, I would, I would represent your representatives, your state in your house representatives and your state level, that those are ultimately going to be the change makers. You could reach out to your, your department of education, but they really don't have any control. They just go by what the loss is. And our situation. It was the governor really pushed the online testing. It saves them substantial amount of money and time. It pushes the time to put on us because it takes longer and puts more stress on our kids and our students. But it was at the sacrifice of our kids to save some money at the state level, certainly.
[24:02]
A
Right. That's horrible.
[24:04]
B
Yes, it is.
[24:05]
A
I would tell parents, if you write out a letter expressing your thoughts about this, share it around as a template with other parents in your school community, because these lawmakers, they don't get a lot of contacts on certain topics like this. And if they get five in one day or 20 in a week on one, it's going to get their attention. And so I think we can put some pressure on states, especially those ones that are have made it mandatory, which is disappointing.
[24:31]
B
It'd be very helpful. Our state rep actually lives in our district and his children will be coming through our district. He's been wonderful. So making contact connections with your state reps, because they are so local can make a difference. And it's just a matter of, you know, like you said, if they start hearing from these parents, they'll go back and they'll start bringing things up.
[24:55]
A
Right. And testing starts in third grade, typically, is that right?
[24:59]
B
Correct. Yeah, third grade. Okay.
[25:02]
A
Okay. So for parents of third grade and up or coming into third grade, you can start having those conversations now because kids get so frustrated during that testing time and teachers are obviously frustrated. It looks like administrators are frustrated. So that's a clear point of pressure that we can all take together and collaboratively. Right.
[25:20]
B
Be much appreciated.
[25:22]
A
Yeah. Great. Okay. Okay. So further on kind of working together and being collaborative, I just want to talk about some of the conflict that parents experience when bringing this up with schools. Parents asked me, you know, what do I do if school leadership isn't taking my concerns seriously? And you talked about sort of the chain of command. But I took those steps and spoke at lots of school board meetings while I was heard. It's not a back and forth conversation. And you have a certain amount of time and you're off and you don't. You're not really involved in a way that feels like we have any say. There are parent teacher groups like the schools Beyond Screens at lausd, Los Angeles Unified School District, who came together in the hundreds and went to school board meetings for a year plus. And finally they were able to put enough pressure to make a difference in that district. But for parents who are kind of burned out and feeling like they've hit a wall. Do you have any advice for them?
[26:21]
B
The highest place you can go is the school board and you got to hope that they're listening. The school represents the people their job is. Listen to the administration, but also listen to the parents who people they represent in that community and then make a decision at that point. But if you don't go and you don't speak and you don't take a swing, you're not going to get hit. So you don't know who you're going to influence or you're going to have input or what's going on. Like in la, they probably thought there's no way they're going to go in the direction they did. But they did, right?
[26:49]
A
Yeah.
[26:49]
B
That's a huge school district. The biggest school district in the country. They were big into tech. All kinds of crazy tech going on there. That was not really doing much to have them actually listen and do something. Came from parents advocating for their kids. So you can't give up. I know it's tough going to those meetings every month and speaking and no one's speaking back. But they are listening. They're having conversations afterwards. Then we have parents talk and then administrators will have discussions with school board members. This is catching on again. You have advocates out there such as yourself getting this national voice. This is the time to jump on and do something about it. It's either now or never. But I do think there are a lot of parents out there who embrace this. You just got to go and be brave enough to go to speak to a meeting again. Start at that school level. Always start at school level and work your way up. But people are listening. When you think they're not listening, they're listening. And if you ask them to honestly, please present to us where the benefit is. Please. Is there a peer reviewed literature? Teach me that this learning platform is better than my child learning from the teacher and challenge them to find the
[28:01]
A
research out there 100%. I think the parents think they have to prove that analog and learning from teachers is better. When we can flip that and ask them to prove to us that the technology is better, we can make those requests of our schools. I also think involving teachers is really important and obviously starting there with your concerns because I think most teachers also feel it and feel it even more strongly because they're struggling with the kids actually using these things in the classroom. Getting distracted, getting frustrated. I do have a lot of teachers that wrote in and teachers that want to do more. But it's tricky because they worry about their job and they're being required a certain number of minutes on Iready, for example. And so what would you advise teachers here around this topic?
[28:49]
B
Teachers can be a strong advocate in this area for sure. Talking to their principals, talking to their upper administration. You know, do it professionally, respectfully. There's no reason why they should have to fear their job in that regard. You know, teachers went into teaching to teach children, not to watch kids sit in front of Chromebooks. That's the bottom line. They're passionate about children, they're passionate about learning. That's why they went into teaching. And that's what they need to be doing. They don't need any kids need them to be teaching them. So it's, it seems so simple to me. And I feel bad for parents seeing these obstacles put out in front of them over and over again of we can't do that because they have to spend so much. What is again sitting in front of I ready for how many minutes a day? Show me where that's beneficial. Show me the research. It shows me that's going to benefit that child. Show me something independent outside. I ready.
[29:49]
A
Something that they didn't fund. Good luck. And I have a couple episodes about Iready, but one with Jared Kuni Horvath and Dr. Jared Knorwath, who's a neuroscientist who dug into their research and found how weak it was and funded by the company themselves. And they've been around what, 50 years or some large amount of time. And if there's no research yet, then it's just not there.
[30:11]
B
It's not there. But they have the, they're at the conferences, they're sponsoring the, you know, they know where the decision makers are at and they place themselves right where those decisions makers are at. So you talk about lobbying and lobbyists and Washington and the state level. They're lobbying school administrators constantly. Orogeny. From emails to conferences, our conferences, principal conferences, Super 10 are dominated by ed tech across the board. The majority of sponsors are ed tech and the topics are all about ed tech. They're pretty good with what they do as far as how they reach their people. And that's why they've had so much influence now. But I think we need to kind of draw the curtain back, look behind that curtain and start showing what's going on.
[31:01]
A
Well, they make, I mean, what is that industry? Nearly $400 billion a year. And they are, they have a lot to lose if they get on the bandwagon of it's not good for kids and how to pivot from there. But it does feel like they're kind of slimy car salesmen at this point trying to get to you guys and get those contracts signed. And we're talking about huge contracts, lots of money that could be spent on more teachers and mental health support and all these things that are more important.
[31:31]
B
And what we're talking about actually science of learning how the brain works. Good pedagogy. Good is free. It's not going to make anyone money. So that's why it's not exciting. Like I'm big into mini whiteboards. Get your mini whiteboard. Every pupil responds. I automatically see what's going on in the classroom. Everyone's writing a response down. Okay, it costs $25 for a set of mini whiteboards in a classroom. Right. I write them down, erase it. That's not gonna make anyone money, but that's more effective than buying them a crow book.
[32:02]
A
And when did school become about making money?
[32:06]
B
Good question.
[32:08]
A
Crazy. Okay, so I want parents to walk away from watching or listening to this with real ways to act. And I have a lot of templates for parents@techsafelearning.org, which I'll link to in the episode notes. And there's lots of templates there around. What are you asking your school to do? Do you want screen time limits? Do you want. No, no screen use under third grade or fourth grade or whatever it may be? What do you think the most important thing is for parents to be asking for right now related to their kids use of technology at school?
[32:42]
B
I would ask for whatever is going to maximize the time with between teacher and student. Whatever that does now, it may require an extended 3, 4, 5 year plan in the school district. So collaborate again. If you're a school district and you bought everything, all your instructional materials are digital. You can't in one year turn around and say, okay, we're going to go hard back textbooks and workbooks. Sure, you don't have the funding, but let's say next year math is up. We've reached our five or six year cycle and we are looking at new math resources. And we've been digital this whole time. That's the time say, you know what, can you consider going back to workbooks and textbooks for math? Let's start there. Okay, that's reasonable because that's one subject we could, we're budgeting for anyway instead of buying digital. Maybe we can. And then the next year, maybe you're doing ela, so we go to ela. So it's being creative that way and saying, you know, we understand budget constraints, but can we work something out where we can get swing this pendulum back? We're not saying eliminate totally, but let's swing this pendulum back to be a little bit reasonable. We want our kids interacting with each other and a teacher. We want hardback. We want paper. The research says your brain learns better on a piece of paper than passively through a screen. Here's the research. Go pick up the digital delusion. It lays out pretty clearly for you. So start like those little micro steps instead of, you know, saying like, it has to be completely screen free. Start somewhere. Ask them how can we work together to start that and move forward in that direction.
[34:25]
A
That's great. And I think too like bringing in other parents on that conversation as quickly as possible, going it alone can be very isolating and easy for you to get ignored because these are, these are big changes and I like the idea of doing it incrementally. I think that's much more realistic. Is there anything else that you want to share with parents before we close out here?
[34:46]
B
Just the same as at school, at home, be careful the screen time. Just because it says, and your audience probably knows this. I know, but just because it says educational does not mean it's beneficial. And you hit this up a lot with your many podcasts and stuff. But something that's gamified, that's hitting on the same dopamine mechanisms is going to be just as harmful as social media or gambling or anything else. It's still hitting on the same pathways. It's going to mess up their brain chemistry. So be careful. Just because something's labeled educational does not mean it's beneficial. I'm sure, Nikki, you kind of cringe when you're walking outside and you see the child in his stroller and they have the iPad or a cell phone. It's like, you know, it's just scary. So be careful at home in that regard, being at, you're your child's best advocate and then talk to other parents that are like minded and grouped together as you mentioned, and see if you can make some change in this regard.
[35:43]
A
Thank you. And you mentioned the digital delusion and that's the latest book from Dr. Jared Cooney Horvath, who will also be interviewed in the series, but I'll link to his book. I think it's a great, really important read across all parties involved in this. I think something you could do right now is buy an extra copy and give it to your principal. Also, send your school this interview because I think hearing from their own ilk and someone who's been there and understands their struggles as well is really important and a way to get us working together. So thank you so much for the time today and let's keep in touch on this. And I know parents appreciate your insight. Thank you.
[36:21]
B
Thank you, Nikki. Appreciate it.

Summary6 min read

Scrolling 2 Death – Ask the Experts: School Tech Edition (Part 1)

Host: Nicki Petrossi
Guest: Dr. Greg Taranto (Superintendent, Cannon McMillan School District, PA)
Date: August 10, 2026

Overview

In the first episode of the “Ask the Experts: School Tech Edition” miniseries, host Nicki Petrossi interviews Dr. Greg Taranto, a veteran educator and current superintendent, to explore the realities behind technology use in schools. They delve into the promises and pitfalls of school-issued devices, the growing role of AI, screen time management, student privacy, and how parents can advocate for healthier learning environments. Throughout, they focus on practical strategies and the importance of collaboration between parents and schools.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Evolution of Technology in Schools ([00:00]–[06:19])

Initial Tech Adoption: Dr. Taranto reminisces about his early teaching days, student experiences with AOL chat rooms, and his initial efforts to educate on internet safety.
- Quote: “Before class would start, I would hear my students talk about being in AOL chat rooms... I had no idea what they're talking about.” – Dr. Taranto ([02:39])
Social Media’s Impact on School Culture: He discusses how social media conflicts began spilling into school days, changing the nature of disciplinary challenges.
- Quote: “Students that would not be on the same team or on the same bus or never really see each other walk into the school and have a conflict instantly.” ([03:31])
Ripple Effects of Screen Time: Concerns extend beyond behavior—affecting sleep, physical activity, and brain chemistry.
- Quote: “You’re not sleeping as much. What's that influence on the body?” ([04:28])

2. School-Issued Devices and Screen Time Policy ([06:19]–[08:40])

Current Approach: Cannon-McMillan now keeps grades K–2 screen free, reducing screen time initiative-wide, and limits one-to-one device programs to higher grades.
Reduced EdTech Platforms: Elimination of software like iXL and Reflex Math from elementary levels; focus remains on maximizing teacher-student interaction.
- Quote: “The research says the number one determining factor on student achievement is the teacher...maximize that human to human connection as much as possible.” – Dr. Taranto ([07:28])

3. Assessing the “Tech Promise” ([08:40]–[10:13])

Reflecting on Early Optimism & Pivoting: Dr. Taranto shares how he initially championed Chromebooks but shifted as research showing limited/no learning gains mounted.
- Quote: “If we preach growth mindset to our students...we should also have a growth mindset and be willing to pivot when we are presented with new information.” – Dr. Taranto ([09:25])
COVID & Tech Reliance: COVID-19 fueled device dependency but now efforts are focused on recalibrating.

4. Artificial Intelligence in Schools ([10:13]–[14:39])

Increasing AI Pressure: AI is being aggressively marketed to schools, but Dr. Taranto questions its educational benefit, citing passive learning and lack of cognitive “productive struggle”.
- Quote: “AI is now...everything we've been concerned about on steroids.” – Dr. Taranto ([10:19])
- Analogy: Learning with AI is like perpetually lifting a 5lb weight—no muscle (or mind) growth ([11:57]).
Dr. Taranto’s District Policy: AI use is limited to tech education classes (like robotics); core subjects avoid AI integration.

5. Parent Rights, Oversight & Opting Out ([14:39]–[20:23])

Transparency and Autonomy: Parents are encouraged to ask about every digital resource their child may access.
- Quote: “The school district's curricula resources...should be fully accessible to that parent.” – Dr. Taranto ([16:47])
Barriers to Opt-Out: Many districts can’t easily offer alternatives because of “all-in” digital adoptions. Dr. Taranto’s district prioritizes paper whenever feasible.
Chain-of-Command for Issues: Start with the teacher, escalate to the principal, then curriculum director, superintendent, and finally, the school board.

6. Standardized Testing & Advocacy ([20:23]–[25:21])

Mandatory Online Testing: Dr. Taranto expresses frustration with state-mandated online tests, which increase screen time dramatically.
- Quote: “That’s a lot of lost instructional time...I don’t have my third graders on Chromebooks so much at all...But then the state's saying...take this test on a Chromebook.” – Dr. Taranto ([21:01])
Parent Opt-Outs: Pennsylvania allows opt-outs for religious reasons only, but mass opt-outs can negatively impact school funding and performance ratings.
- Advice: Lobby state legislators directly for change.

7. Parent Engagement & Advocacy Strategies ([25:21]–[32:41])

Challenges Facing Parents: Many parents feel unheard despite attending board meetings. Persistence and organizing with other parents can pay off.
- Quote: “If you don’t go and you don’t speak and you don’t take a swing, you're not going to get hit. So you don’t know who you're going to influence...” – Dr. Taranto ([26:20])
Involving Teachers: Teachers share parents’ frustrations and can be powerful advocates—but need to speak up respectfully and professionally.
- Quote: “Teachers went into teaching to teach children, not to watch kids sit in front of Chromebooks.” – Dr. Taranto ([28:49])
EdTech Industry Influence: The industry’s outsized presence at conferences is highlighted, with billions at stake and aggressive lobbying tactics.
- Quote: “That industry...nearly $400 billion a year...they are, they have a lot to lose if they get on the bandwagon of it's not good for kids.” – Nicki ([31:01])

8. Practical Actions for Parents ([32:41]–[36:20])

Pragmatic Advocacy: Parents should focus on maximizing face time between students and teachers. Realistic, incremental transitions from digital-only to more analog resources are recommended.
- Quote: “Ask for whatever is going to maximize the time with between teacher and student.” – Dr. Taranto ([32:41])
Home & School Consistency: Be wary of screen time at home, especially with products marketed as “educational” but which trigger the same addictive dopamine pathways as social media.

Notable Quotes & Moments

“The research says...the number one determining factor on student achievement is the teacher. If it keeps pointing to the teacher, why are we doing things to take the student away from the teacher?” – Dr. Taranto ([07:28])
“If we preach growth mindset to our students...we should also have a growth mindset and be willing to pivot when we are presented with new information.” – Dr. Taranto ([09:25])
“AI is now...everything we've been concerned about on steroids.” – Dr. Taranto ([10:19])
“Teachers went into teaching to teach children, not to watch kids sit in front of Chromebooks.” – Dr. Taranto ([28:49])
“Just because it says educational does not mean it's beneficial.” – Dr. Taranto ([34:45])
“Good pedagogy...is free. It’s not going to make anyone money. That’s why it’s not exciting.” – Dr. Taranto ([31:31])
“If you don’t go and you don’t speak and you don’t take a swing, you're not going to get hit. So you don’t know who you’re going to influence.” – Dr. Taranto ([26:20])
“Show me something independent outside Iready...Good luck.” – Nicki ([29:48])

Important Timestamps

[04:28] – Impact of screen time on health and discipline
[06:19] – K–2 screens ban and cutback rationale
[09:25] – Admitting and remedying earlier over-optimism about ed tech
[11:19] – Skepticism about AI in K–12 and brain-based instruction analogy
[13:57] – Safe/unsafe AI use in middle and high school
[16:47] – Parental access to all digital learning resources
[21:01] – How online standardized testing disrupts learning
[26:20] – The importance and impact of parent advocacy
[28:49] – Teachers as critical frontline advocates

Key Takeaways for Parents

The most effective learning comes from teacher-student interaction, not ed tech platforms or AI.
Parents have the right to know—and ask for detailed information about—what digital resources their children use in school.
Opting out of devices and online testing is possible, but varies by state/district; organizing with other parents and lobbying legislators amplifies your voice.
School change happens incrementally; propose subject-by-subject shifts back to analog when possible.
Don’t be intimidated—school boards and administrators are listening, even if it doesn’t always feel that way.
At home, apply the same skepticism to “educational” screen products as to social media.

Resources Mentioned

Digital Delusion by Dr. Jared Cooney Horvath (recommended reading for educators and parents)
techsafelearning.org – Templates and guides for parental advocacy
Buckets Over Bullying – Sponsor for the miniseries

This episode offers a candid, research-driven look at how technology decisions are made in schools, why “more tech” is not always better, and how parents and teachers can work together to prioritize real learning and human connection.

Loading summary

Transcript64 lines

[00:00]
A
Welcome to Scrolling to Death and our special Back to School miniseries called Ask the School Tech Edition. If you're sending your child back to school this year with more questions than confidence, you are not alone. For more than a decade, Big Tech promised schools that putting a Chromebook or an iPad on every desk and replacing traditional instruction with personalized, data driven technology would improve learning. Instead, parents like us have watched reading and math scores decline while our concerns about their attention, critical thinking skills, social development and student well being have continued to grow. If you've ever wondered whether all this technology is actually helping your child learn, your concerns are valid. And you're certainly not the only parent asking these questions. That's why I asked parents in the Scrolling to Death community to tell me what they're most concerned about heading into the school year. Throughout August, we're going to be bringing your biggest questions directly to four leading experts in child development, education, technology and mental health. I'm bringing in a neuroscientist, a school superintendent, people who study learning and online safety for their jobs. Together we're going to tackle the issues that us parents are facing right now. From school issued devices and AI use at school, to screen time and student privacy and what healthy technology use and can actually look like. My goal has never been to create more fear. It's to equip you with practical, evidence based advice so you can make confident decisions for your family this school year. New episodes of Ask the Experts School Tech Edition will be released every Monday throughout August. This special miniseries is made possible through a generous donation from Buckets Over Bullying, a nonprofit organization committed to eliminating cyberbullying among kids and teens. For additional resources, parent guides and tools to help you advocate for healthier technology use at school, visit techsafelearning.org thank you so much for joining me. Let's get started. Today we are joined by Dr. Greg Taranto, the superintendent of the Cannon McMillan School District in Pennsylvania. Dr. Taranto has worked in education for 27 years in different roles, including many years as a teacher and a school principal. He's here to help us bridge the gap between parents and schools to give us an inside look into how technology decisions are made at school and how we can work together to put kids and their well being back at the forefront of these decisions.
[02:39]
B
I was teaching science at our middle school and teaching some lessons. Before class would start, I would hear my students talk about being in AOL chat rooms and I had no idea what they're talking about so I had to ask them like what are you talking about AO chat chat rooms. So they, they would explain what we go at night, we go in these chat rooms and we have conversations with our friends or other people we meet online.
[03:07]
A
Yeah.
[03:07]
B
And I remember asking them, like, how do you know who you're talking to? They said, well, they tell us who they are. I said, well, how do you actually know that's who they are? So that sparks some interest in looking into and researching into that. And again, that's 20 plus years ago.
[03:26]
A
I remember those AOL chat rooms. I got into trouble. My parents,
[03:32]
B
I would have been your teacher telling you, be careful. So I asked my principal at the time, I said, hey, can I spend a. Just a class on Internet safety, like being safe, and wow. And she's like, absolutely, go for it. And from there it turned into, can I do like an evening talk with parents that have kids online that are doing these things? Absolutely. So I spent a good amount of time each year I would do a presentation on Internet safety. And then that just naturally evolved to social media because social media ends up taking over the show in 2010, 11 12ish range. Like, what's going on with brain chemistry? Why is this catching on so much in society and with our kids? And then being a principal for so long, I was a middle school principal almost 20 years, seeing how that changed discipline and what was going on. Students that would not be on the same team or on the same bus or never really see each other walk into the school and have a conflict instantly. Why is that occurring? Well, something happened on social media the night before and it spills into the school. And then they would bring in their show, their screens, and I'm like, it's a school night. You're up on your phone at 2am what is going on? Why are you on your phone at 2am? That really changed the discipline atmosphere of schooling, quite honestly. And if you talk to principals today, their number one challenge right now is what's occurring online on social media and how it spills into schools constantly. It's a constant battle. But also the, you know, what's going on with that ripple effect with being on screen so long? Well, you're not as active, you're not exercising that much. What's that influence on the body? You're not sleeping as much. What's that influence on the body? So it's just a strong interest there and just following leading people out there, such as yourself, Jonathan Haidt, Anna Lemke, Dr. Jared Horvath, who's actually speaking for us at our opening Day session for our teachers on August 20th.
[05:39]
A
So yeah, today he'll be in the series too.
[05:43]
B
Great. Wow. He's amazing.
[05:47]
A
So I wonder then because you know, it started with the phones, kids getting access to social media, it affecting their development, causing issues with kids at school, even though that was happening off of school. But then we introduced school issued devices where kids also can get around safeguards and get access to some of these things. I wonder what if you could take us back to that time when kids started getting issued devices at school and then one to one devices. How was that experience for you?
[06:19]
B
We've been pretty careful with that. Now this past spring we made the announcement that grades K1 and 2 is going to be screen free, completely screen free. So that we made that announcement there and it's been overwhelmingly positive response from parents and teachers at those grade levels. But it's been part of a, a reduced screen time initiative the past couple years. Nikki. So it's not like, hey, we just decided to do this. It was minimal screen time in those grade levels, a little bit more in second grade. And I liked, I talked to my K through 6 assistant superintendent. We had a discussion. I'm like, you know, this is the time. Now we're moving this direction. Let's take this final step. Cut it out and then continue that reduction of screen time. Grades three through 12, we do one to one at the high school only. And that's the only grade levels we do one to one. So starting in ninth grade they do get an issued crush Chromebook. We have Chromebooks. Students have Chromebook access in our schools. Next year will be starting in grade three, but it is with a reduced function. It's, it's the. Okay, you wrote, you wrote an essay. Let's type it out. We are eliminating edtech learning platforms at our elementary level. So we're eliminating ixl. We've eliminated Reflex math. So we will not be utilizing those tools whatsoever. Again, if you just, if you, if you follow the research, follow the literature, it doesn't lead you in that direction, it leads you in the opposite direction. And literature says, the research says the number one determining factor on student achievement is the teacher. So if it keeps pointing to the in school factor, if it keeps pointing to the teacher, why are we doing things to take the student away from the teacher? We want to maximize that time with the teacher and the students. Maximize that human to human connection as much as possible. Student, student, teacher to student as possible. We need to maximize the time we have with these students. And it's not that much we have to make sure. We're leaning into what does the research say as far as best practice, how does the brain learn? What are best pedagogy practices of the brain learning? None of that ever leads to putting in front of a computer program a learning platform. It's always the teacher and the student in solid pedagogy practices.
[08:40]
A
Right. And I think we were at schools, were sold, you know, big promises by the tech companies maybe a decade ago and since then. And so would you agree that they didn't deliver on that promise?
[08:54]
B
Absolutely. And I was on board with that. A colleague and I.
[08:58]
A
Everybody was.
[08:58]
B
Yeah. We wrote an article called Powering up, and it was talking about, hey, we got to get our students ready for the 21st century, infuse tech in their everyday lives. And, you know, we're all on board. My school was the first school to adopt Chromebooks. I went out to a business, a local business. They donated money. I said, hey, they have these new laptops out. They don't cost $1,500. They cost $150. We get put Chromebooks. So this is coming from someone who was firsthand involved with it. But you cannot ignore the research time and time again that's out over and over again. It's overwhelming. So if we preach growth mindset to our students, as educators and as educational, Educational leaders, we should also have a growth mindset and be willing to pivot when we are presented with new information. And that's what we're doing, and information's coming in, we're pivoting. We know what Covid did. It exacerbated us. We needed the devices. But it was at that time where it just took over. And we need to go swing back that pendulum back to center and understand the most important way for people to learn is from other people.
[10:14]
A
Absolutely. And not robots. Did you see that school in New York that put a robot in the classroom?
[10:20]
B
Thank goodness they went the other direction. But that was terrifying for me. And AI is now. It's everything we've been concerned about on steroids. Right. And at time, now than ever, we have to preserve human thought. If that's not occurring in the skulls, where is going to occur? And it's scary because AI is. They're pushing AI push my conferences, my associations, I'm associated with. Everything is tech and AI, tech and AI. You can't get around it. It's baffling for me to understand as academics, like, are we not reading what the literature says? Are we not reading what the Research
[11:01]
A
says, why do you think that is? Why do you think schools are continuing to push so hard on AI? And I have some questions from parents about AI I would love your input on. But are schools ignor, ignoring it? Are schools still buying the promise of it? Are schools thinking, well, it's an AI world and we need to get our kids ready for it?
[11:20]
B
Yeah. I think it's born out of ignorance and it's the cat's out of the bag, you might as well jump on board. Right. You might as well go with it because it's here and it's here to stay. And I think it's a nonsense argument because again, if we understand AI will be here and adults that have a strong knowledge set and a problem solving established in their brain already, sure, you could use it as an efficiency tool. Absolutely. But if you don't have the skill sets and the knowledge set to begin with, you cannot jump on with AI and say, well, I'm going to make learning efficient. Because learning is not efficiency. Learning is about productive struggle in the brain. When you go through this productive struggle process in your brain and you form schema, concepts form, and that gets lodged in your long term memory, AI bypasses that. You go into a passive state, study after study. MIT places that really want AI to work, they're studying this and they're like, they're looking at brain scans. You're like, your brain's in a super passive state. Right. The analogy I use with teachers and parents is it's like lifting weights. Right. So your body responds to that stress. I'm going to lift the weight. If I pick up five pounds, I could do that forever. Is it going to stimulate a response? My muscle is going to grow? No. If I then pick up £30 and I start to lift those weights and it provides a stress on the muscle, your body's going to say, respond that, say, you know what? I didn't like that stress. I'm going to respond appropriately. I'm going to grow some muscle. So the next time you present that stress to me, I will be ready for that. Your brain's the same way. When you present a struggle in your brain to remember something or make connections, if you're actually engaging with it, your brain will not want to go through the same struggle over again. So it will learn those connections. If you introduce AI to a first grader and it's doing all the work for them, they'll never have to go through a productive struggle. They'll never have to have that understanding.
[13:23]
A
Right? Right. And A lot of schools are starting to introduce Google, Gemini or sometimes chatgpt as well. I believe typically they're waiting until middle school because technically you have to be 13 to use these products per their, the company guidelines themselves. And that has a lot to do with data collection and a law called COPPA and parent, you know, cutting parents out of having to give approval for their data collection. That happens at 13. I wonder if you feel that AI use is safe or beneficial even starting in middle school.
[13:57]
B
No, it's not. Here the only AI we have is on our tech ed classes, which we think that's where it belongs. So we have some AI robotics that they utilize starting in fifth grade and we have a really robust robotics tech ed program. So while we're reducing screen time, we have one of the best tech ed programs around as far as technology education, which we think that's where the bulk of this technology belongs. The exposure to STREAM should be in tech ed classes, not your core subject classes. So we do not have AI in the hands of students at all. We did some piloting at the high school level with some English essay type of writing with it and did not see the benefit of it.
[14:39]
A
Okay, so for parents, a lot of parents wanted to know how they can opt out of AI use if their school loads it up onto these devices that their kids use.
[14:50]
B
Well, one, it's communicate with your school administrator as far as asking specifically what is being utilized, what is, what is and what is not being utilized? As you said, is it open, is it closed? And as a parent you have a lot of rights as far as opting out of certain things and asking for alternative curricula or resources in that regard. So it really depends on your state, the policy and your school districts and what you can or can't do. We give parents a lot of autonomy in that regard. They don't have to worry about the AI in our classrooms. But if there's a novel that they don't agree with as far as it goes against a certain religion, then by all means there's a process to make a request and get an alternative type of novel or assignment in that regard. So I'm not sure if that's super helpful, but these are new waters for sure when it comes to AI for everybody.
[15:46]
A
And I think just the opting out conversation in general, you know, parents are asking what, what legal rights do I have? And the laws just don't exist yet. And it is sort of a district by district conversation. And but like you said, parents do have rights and a Lot of parents express that they want more control over what kids are accessing at school. And so a lot of parents did ask me, is there a way to see what programs, apps, games, websites my child is using throughout their day on the device? And for me, I went, I made that request directly to the principal and the teachers. What, what is my child going to access this year? And then I went into the classroom and asked to take a look at it and poke around on the device. So those are some things I think parents just don't realize that they, they can do and I think starting there. But any other thoughts around how parents can get involved and be more aware of what their kids are doing on those devices?
[16:48]
B
The school district's curricula resources, either if it's a textbook or it's a program, should be fully accessible to that parent. And they have the complete right to ask for those resources, to review them, to look at them completely. And if a, and a principal or administrator or teacher doesn't know exactly what they have access to, that's a problem. We have pretty strict tech tools in place. We know exactly what they can and cannot utilize, and we're pretty strict with that, like when our students don't have access to YouTube and things of that nature. So we're pretty strict with what they can't access. Our firewall is pretty strong. But kids find a way. And when we find a way, our tech departments are always monitoring, seeing, okay, how did he get around that? Yeah, let's block that now.
[17:37]
A
Right. And that's always going to happen. Kids are going to, you know, use VPNs or find these workarounds and share them with each other. And I know districts are doing the best they can to try to monitor, but I think when it comes to screen time limits and just less time on those screens, less one on one device use in the younger grades, less sending them home with kids so that kids are on them at home. All of that helps to avoid them having the time to figure out how to find their way around things, right?
[18:08]
B
Sure, Absolutely. I agree.
[18:09]
A
For parents who just want to opt out, and that's particularly for the lower grades because a lot of schools do give kids access to devices starting in kindergarten. Luckily, you know, you told me that yours pushed it up to third grade, and that's incredible. But for parents that want to opt out. Any advice there? Sometimes I wonder if we can just not sign the Internet consent part of the paperwork that you fill out at the beginning of the year. But any, any feedback for parents on how we can just try to opt.
[18:38]
B
Yeah, that's specific to, that's going to be specific to that school district, their policy. But I would be surprised if there, if there was not a way to opt out. Now here's the problem Nikki, is a lot of districts, they want all in on one to one. So all their resources are then essentially digital as well. That could be a problem. Like do they have actually hard copy textbooks or workbooks they, that the students can have access to? If they do, it should be much easier to opt out and have, have access to those resources or about hard copies textbooks as much as possible. If that text. If we're looking at resource and they don't have that as a resource, we don't look at it. So that's through high school. So and we've been doing that for a number of years now. So we avoid digital if we can. And then I'll ask. I can't name a subject actually right now that's just digital. It's, it's, it's textbook workbooks. We want kids with pencils in our hands. We want paper, pencil as much as possible.
[19:41]
A
So for a parent who wants to engage and start that conversation with can my child have, you know, paper versions of, of the math work or of the math work that they're doing at school? Would you recommend going to the teacher first with CCing the principal, do you go above? I mean, because this, this does end up getting escalated pretty quickly. Like what' the kind of cadence that you would recommend or where would they start?
[20:04]
B
Always, always recommend, follow the chain of command and that's that in this situation it would be to make the request to the teacher first and then if that's not granted, then the principal and then from there director of curriculum or assistant superintendent, then superintendent and that from there would be the school board.
[20:23]
A
In some states you are allowed to opt out of testing. Testing is heavily virtual and as far as I understand, schools rely on the test results for funding. But personally I don't want my kids on devices many hours from several days up to a week or so. And so I opt out and I'll hear of a lot of parents who are doing that. I wonder if this is something that frustrates you because it's harmful to the school overall to not get those test results or if it's a step towards just lessening the reliance on screens overall. What are your thoughts on testing and opting out?
[21:02]
B
Well, unfortunately, Pennsylvania moved towards mandatory online testing this past full year. It was optional for a few years we stuck to a traditional paper and pencil testing and they made it mandatory this past school year. And I was quite disappointed in that decision, knowing that we should be going the opposite direction with less screens. So I understand where parents are coming from. First you have the testing in itself that can be quite intrusive. So you know, reading test, math test, science test, those tests can take up to about three weeks of time to take implement at our lower grades. Wow. And that's a lot of lost instructional time. Right now we're talking about putting more lines. So I don't have my third graders on Chromebooks so much at all. And now I'm asking them to take these tests on. And so the teachers are stressed out because their students are not on Chromebooks that much. We don't want them on the Chromebooks. But then the state's saying, by the way, now you got to take this test on a Chromebook. You have to type an essay on a Chromebook.
[22:13]
A
No wonder it takes three weeks.
[22:15]
B
Yeah, it takes a long time and it's frustrating. So I understand when parents opt out, it does hurt the school or school district when a parent opts out because you're only allowed so many opt outs.
[22:26]
A
Okay.
[22:27]
B
And then you get dinged for those opt outs for, for Pennsylvania, if it goes below 95%. We don't discourage parents. If they want to opt out, they opt out. They have to opt out for religious reasons only in Pennsylvania that's could be the only reason why they opt out. But if they opt out, I completely understand why. And we don't try to discourage it. We try to talk to legislators. I try to ask parents to talk to legislators because that's where it's going to change. Taught your legislators because it's not fair. You're putting a school in between the parent and what's kind of what right by the child and the school gets punished as a result. But I don't begrudge parents when they opt their kids out of standardized tests, especially when they're on an online format.
[23:08]
A
Okay. So it's helpful to put pressure on the state, on the state legislators to go back to some analog testing to express their frustration. Who would be our direct point of contact? Is it your House representative for that or is there a person on the state board making the decision? Where do we direct?
[23:28]
B
Yeah, I would, I would represent your representatives, your state in your house representatives and your state level, that those are ultimately going to be the change makers. You could reach out to your, your department of education, but they really don't have any control. They just go by what the loss is. And our situation. It was the governor really pushed the online testing. It saves them substantial amount of money and time. It pushes the time to put on us because it takes longer and puts more stress on our kids and our students. But it was at the sacrifice of our kids to save some money at the state level, certainly.
[24:02]
A
Right. That's horrible.
[24:04]
B
Yes, it is.
[24:05]
A
I would tell parents, if you write out a letter expressing your thoughts about this, share it around as a template with other parents in your school community, because these lawmakers, they don't get a lot of contacts on certain topics like this. And if they get five in one day or 20 in a week on one, it's going to get their attention. And so I think we can put some pressure on states, especially those ones that are have made it mandatory, which is disappointing.
[24:31]
B
It'd be very helpful. Our state rep actually lives in our district and his children will be coming through our district. He's been wonderful. So making contact connections with your state reps, because they are so local can make a difference. And it's just a matter of, you know, like you said, if they start hearing from these parents, they'll go back and they'll start bringing things up.
[24:55]
A
Right. And testing starts in third grade, typically, is that right?
[24:59]
B
Correct. Yeah, third grade. Okay.
[25:02]
A
Okay. So for parents of third grade and up or coming into third grade, you can start having those conversations now because kids get so frustrated during that testing time and teachers are obviously frustrated. It looks like administrators are frustrated. So that's a clear point of pressure that we can all take together and collaboratively. Right.
[25:20]
B
Be much appreciated.
[25:22]
A
Yeah. Great. Okay. Okay. So further on kind of working together and being collaborative, I just want to talk about some of the conflict that parents experience when bringing this up with schools. Parents asked me, you know, what do I do if school leadership isn't taking my concerns seriously? And you talked about sort of the chain of command. But I took those steps and spoke at lots of school board meetings while I was heard. It's not a back and forth conversation. And you have a certain amount of time and you're off and you don't. You're not really involved in a way that feels like we have any say. There are parent teacher groups like the schools Beyond Screens at lausd, Los Angeles Unified School District, who came together in the hundreds and went to school board meetings for a year plus. And finally they were able to put enough pressure to make a difference in that district. But for parents who are kind of burned out and feeling like they've hit a wall. Do you have any advice for them?
[26:21]
B
The highest place you can go is the school board and you got to hope that they're listening. The school represents the people their job is. Listen to the administration, but also listen to the parents who people they represent in that community and then make a decision at that point. But if you don't go and you don't speak and you don't take a swing, you're not going to get hit. So you don't know who you're going to influence or you're going to have input or what's going on. Like in la, they probably thought there's no way they're going to go in the direction they did. But they did, right?
[26:49]
A
Yeah.
[26:49]
B
That's a huge school district. The biggest school district in the country. They were big into tech. All kinds of crazy tech going on there. That was not really doing much to have them actually listen and do something. Came from parents advocating for their kids. So you can't give up. I know it's tough going to those meetings every month and speaking and no one's speaking back. But they are listening. They're having conversations afterwards. Then we have parents talk and then administrators will have discussions with school board members. This is catching on again. You have advocates out there such as yourself getting this national voice. This is the time to jump on and do something about it. It's either now or never. But I do think there are a lot of parents out there who embrace this. You just got to go and be brave enough to go to speak to a meeting again. Start at that school level. Always start at school level and work your way up. But people are listening. When you think they're not listening, they're listening. And if you ask them to honestly, please present to us where the benefit is. Please. Is there a peer reviewed literature? Teach me that this learning platform is better than my child learning from the teacher and challenge them to find the
[28:01]
A
research out there 100%. I think the parents think they have to prove that analog and learning from teachers is better. When we can flip that and ask them to prove to us that the technology is better, we can make those requests of our schools. I also think involving teachers is really important and obviously starting there with your concerns because I think most teachers also feel it and feel it even more strongly because they're struggling with the kids actually using these things in the classroom. Getting distracted, getting frustrated. I do have a lot of teachers that wrote in and teachers that want to do more. But it's tricky because they worry about their job and they're being required a certain number of minutes on Iready, for example. And so what would you advise teachers here around this topic?
[28:49]
B
Teachers can be a strong advocate in this area for sure. Talking to their principals, talking to their upper administration. You know, do it professionally, respectfully. There's no reason why they should have to fear their job in that regard. You know, teachers went into teaching to teach children, not to watch kids sit in front of Chromebooks. That's the bottom line. They're passionate about children, they're passionate about learning. That's why they went into teaching. And that's what they need to be doing. They don't need any kids need them to be teaching them. So it's, it seems so simple to me. And I feel bad for parents seeing these obstacles put out in front of them over and over again of we can't do that because they have to spend so much. What is again sitting in front of I ready for how many minutes a day? Show me where that's beneficial. Show me the research. It shows me that's going to benefit that child. Show me something independent outside. I ready.
[29:49]
A
Something that they didn't fund. Good luck. And I have a couple episodes about Iready, but one with Jared Kuni Horvath and Dr. Jared Knorwath, who's a neuroscientist who dug into their research and found how weak it was and funded by the company themselves. And they've been around what, 50 years or some large amount of time. And if there's no research yet, then it's just not there.
[30:11]
B
It's not there. But they have the, they're at the conferences, they're sponsoring the, you know, they know where the decision makers are at and they place themselves right where those decisions makers are at. So you talk about lobbying and lobbyists and Washington and the state level. They're lobbying school administrators constantly. Orogeny. From emails to conferences, our conferences, principal conferences, Super 10 are dominated by ed tech across the board. The majority of sponsors are ed tech and the topics are all about ed tech. They're pretty good with what they do as far as how they reach their people. And that's why they've had so much influence now. But I think we need to kind of draw the curtain back, look behind that curtain and start showing what's going on.
[31:01]
A
Well, they make, I mean, what is that industry? Nearly $400 billion a year. And they are, they have a lot to lose if they get on the bandwagon of it's not good for kids and how to pivot from there. But it does feel like they're kind of slimy car salesmen at this point trying to get to you guys and get those contracts signed. And we're talking about huge contracts, lots of money that could be spent on more teachers and mental health support and all these things that are more important.
[31:31]
B
And what we're talking about actually science of learning how the brain works. Good pedagogy. Good is free. It's not going to make anyone money. So that's why it's not exciting. Like I'm big into mini whiteboards. Get your mini whiteboard. Every pupil responds. I automatically see what's going on in the classroom. Everyone's writing a response down. Okay, it costs $25 for a set of mini whiteboards in a classroom. Right. I write them down, erase it. That's not gonna make anyone money, but that's more effective than buying them a crow book.
[32:02]
A
And when did school become about making money?
[32:06]
B
Good question.
[32:08]
A
Crazy. Okay, so I want parents to walk away from watching or listening to this with real ways to act. And I have a lot of templates for parents@techsafelearning.org, which I'll link to in the episode notes. And there's lots of templates there around. What are you asking your school to do? Do you want screen time limits? Do you want. No, no screen use under third grade or fourth grade or whatever it may be? What do you think the most important thing is for parents to be asking for right now related to their kids use of technology at school?
[32:42]
B
I would ask for whatever is going to maximize the time with between teacher and student. Whatever that does now, it may require an extended 3, 4, 5 year plan in the school district. So collaborate again. If you're a school district and you bought everything, all your instructional materials are digital. You can't in one year turn around and say, okay, we're going to go hard back textbooks and workbooks. Sure, you don't have the funding, but let's say next year math is up. We've reached our five or six year cycle and we are looking at new math resources. And we've been digital this whole time. That's the time say, you know what, can you consider going back to workbooks and textbooks for math? Let's start there. Okay, that's reasonable because that's one subject we could, we're budgeting for anyway instead of buying digital. Maybe we can. And then the next year, maybe you're doing ela, so we go to ela. So it's being creative that way and saying, you know, we understand budget constraints, but can we work something out where we can get swing this pendulum back? We're not saying eliminate totally, but let's swing this pendulum back to be a little bit reasonable. We want our kids interacting with each other and a teacher. We want hardback. We want paper. The research says your brain learns better on a piece of paper than passively through a screen. Here's the research. Go pick up the digital delusion. It lays out pretty clearly for you. So start like those little micro steps instead of, you know, saying like, it has to be completely screen free. Start somewhere. Ask them how can we work together to start that and move forward in that direction.
[34:25]
A
That's great. And I think too like bringing in other parents on that conversation as quickly as possible, going it alone can be very isolating and easy for you to get ignored because these are, these are big changes and I like the idea of doing it incrementally. I think that's much more realistic. Is there anything else that you want to share with parents before we close out here?
[34:46]
B
Just the same as at school, at home, be careful the screen time. Just because it says, and your audience probably knows this. I know, but just because it says educational does not mean it's beneficial. And you hit this up a lot with your many podcasts and stuff. But something that's gamified, that's hitting on the same dopamine mechanisms is going to be just as harmful as social media or gambling or anything else. It's still hitting on the same pathways. It's going to mess up their brain chemistry. So be careful. Just because something's labeled educational does not mean it's beneficial. I'm sure, Nikki, you kind of cringe when you're walking outside and you see the child in his stroller and they have the iPad or a cell phone. It's like, you know, it's just scary. So be careful at home in that regard, being at, you're your child's best advocate and then talk to other parents that are like minded and grouped together as you mentioned, and see if you can make some change in this regard.
[35:43]
A
Thank you. And you mentioned the digital delusion and that's the latest book from Dr. Jared Cooney Horvath, who will also be interviewed in the series, but I'll link to his book. I think it's a great, really important read across all parties involved in this. I think something you could do right now is buy an extra copy and give it to your principal. Also, send your school this interview because I think hearing from their own ilk and someone who's been there and understands their struggles as well is really important and a way to get us working together. So thank you so much for the time today and let's keep in touch on this. And I know parents appreciate your insight. Thank you.
[36:21]
B
Thank you, Nikki. Appreciate it.