"I swapped their smartphones for simple phones." (with Kathleen Barlow)

Summary

Podcast Summary: "I swapped their smartphones for simple phones."

Podcast: Scrolling 2 Death
Host: Nicki Petrossi
Guest: Kathleen Barlow
Date: February 27, 2025

---

Episode Overview

In this engaging episode, Nicki Petrossi reunites with Kathleen Barlow to explore Kathleen’s family’s transformative journey from smartphone addiction to embracing “simple phones” (Pinwheel phones) for her teenage daughters. With honesty and humor, they dissect the motivations, challenges, and unexpected triumphs that stemmed from swapping out iPhones for safer, less distracting alternatives. The discussion touches on emotional regulation, social development, family culture, and the potential for parents to reclaim control over their children’s digital lives.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Switch from Smartphones?

(Motivation, Dangers, Early Steps | 02:23–05:20)

• Kathleen reframes the term "dumb phone" to “simple phone”:

  “I have a new term…simple phone. It just has simpler options…But…my twins…had iPhones since they were probably 12. And it has not been good for them…as emotionally and just…skills wise.” (B, 02:23)

• She realized smartphones act like “digital drugs” and can derail emotional and developmental growth.
• Transition involved careful planning and family discussions due to real emotional risks:

  “There are kids who have killed themselves after getting their smartphones taken away…so I did...try to keep them regulated and busy…It did take some weeks.” (B, 03:38–04:55)

• Key Message: "It’s not a done deal…once you give your kid an iPhone...when we see that it’s harming our kids, we can pull back." (A, 05:20)

2. Managing the Transition & Challenges

(Family Preparation, Gradual Changes, Handling Pushback | 06:14–08:18)

• Kathleen’s family has been dialing back tech use for four years—gradual, not cold turkey.
• Highlights the importance of parental regulation:

  “When your kids get dysregulated, you’ve got to not dysregulate with them…this is part of their job…when something they really hate has happened to them.” (B, 07:06)

• Consistency and calm matter:

  “I just kept reminding myself, they are going to complain. This is part of their developmental process…” (B, 07:35)

3. Social Media Shifts

(Access Changes, Modeling Behavior | 08:18–10:36)

• Daughters lost direct social media access; could only use laptops.
• Kathleen tries to model restraint and make social media “as inaccessible…as possible.”

  “I want to model for them that…just make it a little harder for yourself…by not having it on your phone.” (B, 09:22)

4. Transformations After One Year with Simple Phones

(Personal Growth, Emotional Regulation, Skill Building | 10:36–17:23)

• The girls are learning to do "hard things," building patience and resilience:

  "They do hard things...they are learning how to do hard things, which is, like, amazing." (B, 10:55)

• Work stories: they faced social discomfort without the “frictionless” distraction of phones, and adjusted accordingly.
• Notable moment:

  “One day I came in and saw one of them was just looking into the washing machine, just watching it work. I was like, that is so cool…just be with themselves…curious.” (B, 15:15)

• Development of critical skills: social conversation, problem-solving, growing curiosity, and a genuine interest in learning.
• Reduced hyperstimulation leads to increased learning focus and self-regulation.

5. Adult Kids and Ongoing Pushback

(Aging Out, Incentivizing, Family Negotiations | 19:51–22:26)

• Daughters are now 18 and want iPhones—Kathleen and husband incentivize staying off (savings fund).
• They experience technical annoyances (group chats, media sharing) but accept trade-offs.

6. Making It Intentionally Difficult

(Phone Design, Parental Resets, Modeling Alternative Behaviors | 22:30–29:03)

• Host and guest discuss trying the Wise Phone and deliberately making phone use less convenient.
• Both note the importance of not defaulting to phone use:

  “One of the biggest things I do is just to not carry my phone around…They’ll be like, mom, where’s your phone? And my answer has been, I don’t know. And over time, I’ve realized, I like that answer.” (B, 27:08)

• Modeling screen-free behavior in public (waiting rooms, etc.) can inspire others.

7. Broader Movement & Resources

(Screen-free Community, Abstinent Movement, Resources for Parents | 31:00–36:13)

• Kathleen describes Abstinent, a group helping Gen Z step down from social media “slowly…step by step.”
• She promotes her journal for families:

  “52 screen free experiences for families…for every week there’s an idea…be more intentional about that and role modeling for our kids.” (B, 34:03)

• Shout-outs to “Smartphone-Free Childhood” and growing screen-conscious organizations.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "It’s not a done deal. If you give the iPhone, it’s not a done deal. You can pull it back…never too late." (A, 05:20)
• "Phones are frictionless… our brains look for the easiest…that’s a phone…especially for kids." (B, 11:33)
• “Their social skills…are coming along…being able to have a conversation, think critically…problem solve.” (B, 16:50)
• "I just kept reminding myself, they are going to complain. This is part of their developmental process…" (B, 07:35)
• "Just being able to not be looking at their phones…sit, just be with themselves." (B, 14:24)
• “We all could stand to have a little bit more time as families away from screens.” (B, 35:03)
• “You don’t have to be on [social media].” (B, 32:18)

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 02:23 – Kathleen’s reasons & family background for the switch
• 04:55 – The reality and risks of “pulling back” from smartphones
• 06:14 – The family’s gradual tech-reset journey
• 08:18 – Social media changes and modeling restraint
• 10:36 – Major changes: skill building, emotional regulation, and curiosity
• 14:24 – The power of in-between moments and attention span
• 19:51 – Pushback after turning 18 and setting incentives
• 22:30 – Accepting friction and challenges of simple phones
• 27:08 – Modeling screen-free living (Kathleen’s “I don’t know where my phone is”)
• 31:00 – Abstinent movement and slow social media exit
• 34:03 – Kathleen’s screen-free experience journal

---

Resources & References Mentioned

• Pinwheel Phone: The "simple phone" chosen for Kathleen’s daughters.
• Wise Phone: A phone being tested by Nicki for its distraction-reducing features.
• Abstinent: Gen Z movement for gradual social media disengagement.
• Smartphone-Free Childhood: Advocacy for culture change around kids' screen use.
• Kathleen’s Journal: “52 screen free experiences for families” (available on Amazon).

---

Conclusion

This episode provides a nuanced roadmap for families considering a return to simpler devices for their children. Kathleen’s blend of patience, empathy, and consistent boundaries demonstrates that transformation is possible—gradually and with care. Through anecdotes, strategies, and resource sharing, listeners gain practical inspiration and validation for challenging the status quo of tech dependence in modern family life.

---

Transcript

[A]

This episode of Scrolling to Death is sponsored by Bark Technologies. Bark offers parents advanced content monitoring for all of your child's devices. BARK is literally helping to save lives and has alerted parents to millions of life threatening situations like self harm and severe bullying. More on BARK in the episode notes. Welcome everyone to Scrolling to Death. Today I have a repeat guest and friend, Kathleen Barlow. How are you today?

[B]

I'm good. How are you doing, Nikki?

[A]

I'm good. It's Friday today and I've been on calls for about four hours so I, I'm excited to talk to you cause I knew this would just be like a catch up.

[B]

Oh, wow. Okay, well good.

[A]

Do you have any fun plans for the weekend?

[B]

Oh, goodness. Fun plans for the weekend. I don't have a lot this weekend. No. Which is unusual. That's the best.

[A]

That's the best though.

[B]

I know. Definitely we'll be going on a bike ride, a mountain bike ride with my husband because the trails where we live are finally drying up a little bit more. We live in Utah, so there is some snow, but also it dries quickly. So we're going to get out there. Yeah.

[A]

Interesting. And it's been raining for a couple days here in Southern California. It's raining right now and that is very abnormal.

[B]

Oh yeah. Do you like it when it does? Because do you appreciate it when it.

[A]

Yeah, I love it. I love cuddling up in sweatshirts.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Like comfy socks. And staying inside. Yes. Yeah. And everything gets greener and you know, luckily our, we patched the roof recently and are not having any leaks. So that's a good thing.

[B]

Oh well, good. Yeah.

[A]

Everyone's having water damage whenever it rains.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

These weak California roofs. Okay, so we are going to chat about some like healthier phone options today because you told me on our last conversation that you switched your teenage daughters from. They had a smartphone previously and then you move them to a dumb phone. I'm going to call it a healthier phone, a kid safe phone called by a company called Pinwheel and there's several brands and they've been using this phone for a year now. But let's back up. Tell me about why you made that switch in the first place.

[B]

Okay, I will, but I, I have a new term I've been using. I've been saying simple phone. I think I like that, you know, because I know I've always said dumb phone too. Basic phone is good too. But I like, I like simple phone. It just has simpler options, you know, so. But you know, I, as my oldest is now 31, my oldest son and then, and then my twins and I have six kids so them in between. But my, my twins just turned 18 a few months ago. And um, and so they've had iPhones I think since they were probably 12. And it has not been good for them. Like it's not good for most kids, you know. And I just felt like as they were approaching like the 18 year old mark. Right. I mean they're still in high school, they turned 18 early. But I was thinking they are still, they have a lot of skills that they need to be catching up on. I feel like, I feel like, I feel like smartphones have put a lot of our kids behind, you know, as emotionally and just you know, what they are able to do skills wise. And that's where I saw my girls also. So yeah, it was back in February 2024 that I, well I had planned before that, but I think probably December I started really thinking about it. Like, what am I doing? I know all this crap about what is going on on our kids devices and I'm still applying this drug to my girls, you know, and I just thought I can't do it anymore. So I talked to my husband, I talked to my whole family and I talked to my girls about it as well. And they, you know, of course were not happy at all. And it took a lot of planning. Like, I don't say this lightly when I say that I do this. I. For me, a big message that I'm really hoping to put out there into the world more is that we can step back and we can roll back and once you give your kid an iPhone, that is, it's not a done deal. And I think we're made to believe that and our kids probably make us feel like that too. Right. But it's not a done deal. And when we see that it's harming our kids, we can pull back. But it did take a lot of thought and planning on my part because there are kids who have killed themselves after getting their smartphones taken away. It has happened and there are kids that have attempted as well. And so I don't want to make light of it. Um, it is something that you really have to plan for. So I did and I actually made sure I had a lot of time in my schedule right after so that I could spend, spend more time with them. Just try to keep them as regulated as possible. Um, and just busy doing things. And it did take some weeks. Um, but here we are. It's. It's been a year Later. And there have been lots of. There has been lots of skill building. I feel like in this year that I believe wouldn't have happened had they still been on iPhones.

[A]

Okay. I love the message of it's not a done deal. If you give the iPhone, it's not a done deal. You can pull it back, you can take it away, you can give them an alternate phone. It's never too late. But also the reminder that that is like a digital drug, that smartphone, the full blown smartphone. And kids get extremely dependent on it and kind of spiral when they don't have it anymore. And there has been many cases of kids attempting suicide or even taking their life when their phone has been taken away. Right. So that is the truth. And it's harsh, but it is reality. So we have to be careful about that. Um, and so love all of that and just talk a little bit more about that transition. So if parents are thinking, my kid has a smartphone and I want to take it away and give them an alternate phone, what were some of the biggest challenges during that time for your kids and you?

[B]

Well, can I just back up a little and say that our family has been on a journey for probably four years now of dialing back tech in general. So my adult kids, we all live in the same town, so my adult kids come over a lot, we get together a lot. And so we have started just as our family unit over the years, with my instigation, of course, but to really look at our screen culture and our family and dial back. So it has been a slow process. And this is another message, Nikki, that I feel like is important because I know that there are some out there who say you just need to, it's gotta be cold turkey, take it away, there's going to be a dumpster fire and, you know, just deal with it type thing. Which I know that that does probably work for some people, depending on how, you know, how much time they have as a parent to spend during that difficult, really difficult time of taking stuff away. But for me, it's been, for our family, it's been gradual. And so my girls were already used to pulling back. We've had some resets. We've had like a couple of month long resets and a couple, you know, screen fasts here and there over the last few years. So it wasn't just like, hey, girls, you know, this is brand new surprise. So. But even so, it was still difficult and there was a lot of dysregulation and a lot of complaining and I feel like One of the most important things, I would say, is that when your kids get dysregulated, you've got to not dysregulate with them, which is easier said than done. Right. But once. Once their fire is going, the worst thing that we can do as parents is to add to that fire and make it bigger. Right. And I think that's so easy to do, and I've done it tons of times myself. Right. But I just kept reminding myself, they are going to complain. This is part of their job. This is part of their developmental process to complain because something that they really hate has happened to them.

[A]

Right? Yeah, yeah.

[B]

But yet I'm gonna. I'm gonna be consistent and I'm gonna remain calm. And so that was a huge thing. But it's not easy. It is, you know, it is not easy to do.

[A]

Did they go from having access to social media to no social media through that transition?

[B]

Well, part of it was I did not tell them that they couldn't have social media at all. But I told them if they want to get on social media, it needs to be through their laptops, which they think is dumb. And because they do have laptops. They have laptops for school. And laptops are a problem, too. I mean, we have not solved all the problems, believe me. And now they've turned 18, Nikki. So I'd like to talk a little bit about that, but I'm getting ahead of myself because now they're like, we're adults, so we can do what we want. But anyways, so, yeah, I. So they. They don't get on social media that much. They. That's not a huge thing. Although I still believe there have been harms just from all the crap and all the comparison that you typically see on there. So, yeah, I want to model for them that social media, if you're going to get on it, just make it a little harder for yourself, right. By not having it on your phone. And I still have Instagram, on Facebook, on my own phone. I don't. I. I avoid it as much as possible. I don't enjoy social media. And so for me, I don't feel like it's a problem to have it on there. But then they will borrow my phone, which I am fine with. I'm like, anytime you can borrow my phone if you need it for Safari, if you need to look something up, that's fine. Although I do reel it in back in pretty quickly. And they'll make fun of me because I do have social media on my phone. And I have taken it off at times just because of that. Because there. Because then it's. I'm trying to make it as inaccessible for them as possible. Right. Like, we. I feel like we should all be doing. And so I have taken it off and put it on. But I. Like I said, I have things that, yes, are. Are difficult for me, but social media is not one of them because I. I avoid like the plague, you know?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

But I'm just trying. What I'm trying to do, Nikki, is set them up for adult life where they can be successful and not be dragged into all that, you know? So I'm trying to show them when we'. Habits. If it's a bad habit, try to make it as difficult as possible for yourself. That includes not having it on your phone, you know?

[A]

Yeah. Incredible. So what changes have you seen in them in the year since they've been on a pinwheel phone versus an iPhone?

[B]

Oh, well, I ha. I should have looked at. I have a blog post that I'm almost finished with that I've been working on for way too long, but it's called Freedom from Phones. And I talk about the things that I have noticed in my girls since getting off. And by the way, Nikki, they will tell you that they still think it's dumb and that they still, you know, want to have iPhones again. So, again, it's not a perfect solution, but it is one of my proudest parenting decisions because I feel like it has helped them. So one of the biggest things they do, hard things, they know they are learning how to do hard things, which is, like, amazing. And I feel like, okay, I'll give you an example, but let me just say our friend, our mutual friend Laura in Vermont, she calls phones frictionless, right? They are frictionless. They are so easy. It's the easiest thing in the world to pick them up. And that's what's so problematic, especially for kids, because our brains look for the easiest. They look for the path of least resistance. And so that's. That's a phone for you. So kids, especially when their brains are still developing, it's so hard for them not to just pick that up all the time anytime there's any kind of discomfort. One example is as one of my girls got a new job. They both have gotten a new job within the last couple years. And for both of them, they are typically not very social and. And struggle with that. And both of them, when they. Well, they work at the same place, but one of them started about a year and A half after the other ones. So I saw them both go through this amazing process of starting at this job, hating it, wanting to quit all the time. And they kept going every day. And I was like, every day that they left for their shift, I was just tickled, you know, I'm like, I can't believe that they went again, you know, for more torture, whatever, you know, and kept showing up. They kept showing up. At first, they didn't like the other people working there, but over time, they started to understand their job, and they started to understand the people that it was. It's customer service. They work at a soda shop, and. And they. They just learned how to sit in some discomfort, you know, on a daily basis. And now they run that place like it is. They. It is amazing to see how well they are doing. And I just think, what if they had quit, you know, they never would have seen these things about themselves. And one of. One of them actually recently asked the boss for a raise, and he said, well, if you start baking cookies, I'll give you a raise, because that's part of the shop, too. And so she did get this raise, pretty good raise. But now she's in it again, like, with all this difficult, stressful stuff and learning how to bake large batches of cookies, and she's doing amazing with it. Like, these are just things that our kid. Like, we had. At least I did. Nikki, I don't know what kind of own situation you were in as a kid, but we just. We just did these things as kids because we had no other choice, you know? But now these easier choices exist. And so a lot of kids are just like, let's just stay home and sit on our phones, and then we don't have to worry about any of that, you know?

[A]

Yeah. And that's what they're doing. Like, spending. What is it, over seven and a half hours a day on their screens, and then they're in school six to eight hours a day, and then they're asleep, preferably eight hours at night. And that leaves no more time for the hard things. So I love. I love that you're seeing that change.

[B]

Can I say a couple more things?

[A]

Yeah, please. Yeah.

[B]

One thing, just being able to stay regulated in difficult situations in general, I just feel like they have a sense of calmness and maturity that's amazing to see. And just being able to not be looking at their phones all the time, like. And just sit, just be with themselves, like, hang out with family. I came in one day, we had gotten a new Washing machine and dryer, like about six months ago, and it was the top loading one. We had a front loader before and I guess maybe, I don't know, it had been a long time since we'd had a top loader one. And one day I came in and saw one of them was just looking into the washing machine, just watching it work. I was like, that is so cool. Like, because I feel like the attention spans of our teenagers has gone out the window, you know, curious.

[A]

And she just used her brain to like, be like, oh, I'm curious how this works.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

We're missing, they're missing so many opportunities like that, which seems mundane, but it's so important for them to take that extra step and like, act on their curiosity.

[B]

Yeah. I call it the in between moments. Right. Just the in between moments of our lives that so many kids are missing out on because they're, they're never putting their phone down long enough to just look at what's going on around them, you know?

[A]

Yeah. Harrison Haynes, who I've interviewed a couple times and I met him in person, he's like a youth advocate. He calls it moments between moments. And that's what he's naming his book that he's right now, I think I heard that.

[B]

So that, that was so cool because when he said that, I was in the middle of the blog post that I'm still in the middle of that. This one, this, that freedom from phones. And I talk about in between moments. And when he said moments between moments, I'm like, yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about.

[A]

And that's why like, for me, what comes up there is like in the car, because the car is of. Is an opportunity for your kids to sort of just be in their thoughts if you don't give them a device. And I love when I look behind me in the rearview mirror and see them all just staring out the window and thinking, yes, I just like love thinking about what are they thinking about right now? And just that they can be quiet and curious and exploring their thoughts. It's like, that's so important. And they have very little time anymore with all of the stimulation to do that. And it's really important. So what other. Have you seen any other changes you want to share?

[B]

I just think their, their social skills, you know, are coming along, which is really important. You know, just being able to have a conversation, think critically, you know, about things, problem solve. I mean, these are all just things, little things every day that I've seen them do. And actually they're starting to. One of them in particular is starting to enjoy learning more, which is really great. And I know that that's because their brains have settled. You know, they're. They're not so hyper stimulated.

[A]

And I surveyed parents recently who've given their kids social media access, and one of the issues that they've seen after giving that is they are not interested in learning anymore because they can't stay focused enough to actually learn anything. So that inattention is. Is an issue. Um, okay. Yeah. I mean, learning is hard. I know. Did you. Yeah, that was kind of a talking point with my interview with Mackenzie Price, who founded Two Hour Learning, so.

[B]

Oh, yeah, I saw that. Okay. So.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. She has an AI personalized AI learning model where they do all their academics in two hours in the morning. And it's very engaging and personalized. And I tried to kind of make that point that, like. But life isn't always engaging and personalized. It can be really boring at times and difficult. And yeah, so we kind of had that little back and forth. But I recommend that. That sort of tense, awkward interview for anyone that's interested.

[B]

Nikki, I don't know if you saw that I commented on that interview on your. I never comment on Instagram, but after that interview, I commented because. And it was for a positive reason, because I thought it was so cool that you invited her on in spite of having a really fundamental differences in how you believe and that you guys were able to sit together and have a civil conversation, even though you had very differing beliefs. And there was one comment which I thought was not. Was a little bit not nice. I'm not going to go into that anymore. But other than that, I felt like it was really awesome. And I feel like our young people need to see people that have different. That are on opposite ends of the spectrum and that they can still talk, have a conversation. I loved that. I thought that was so awesome and important. Good.

[A]

Okay, thank you. I don't like being in uncomfortable conversations, so I've been avoiding. Like, someone commented on Instagram a while ago, like, are you ever going to talk to someone that you don't agree with or doesn't agree with you? And this was definitely that conversation. And I thought I found it to be really important, though, uncomfortable to have, uncomfortable to edit, uncomfortable to put out. But yeah, it is. It's important. And so. Okay, so your kids are 18 now. Are they still using their pinwheel phone? And what. Are you getting any pushback now?

[B]

Oh, yeah, I still am. And Again, it goes back to just trying to be consistent, which, again, this is something I've learned as a parent over the years. And I've spent many years as a parent being very inconsistent with certain things. And so I am not, like, trying to preach here, but just what I found has helped. And so I was really worried because, like, the couple of months before they. So they turned 18 in November, and a couple months before they started saying, you know, we're getting. We're getting iPhones when we turn 18. And I will say that. I'll tell you that part of what my husband and I did to incentivize them with getting the pinwheel phones was that we said, we're gonna put a little bit of money every month in a savings account for you both so that you can have some money when you move out, you know, And I don't. I don't think there's anything wrong with doing something like that. Like, I feel like it's a win win because they're get. They're off the phones, and now they're gonna have a little extra money when they leave, you know, whenever that is. And so that's been a good incentive. But. And so now, as they've been talking about wanting iPhones, it hasn't happened yet. And I'm just waiting, like, I'm. We have had some very, very difficult conversations with my adult kids as well, involving this, like, because I think some of my adult kids really sympathize with them, feeling like, okay, we're 18 now, we're adults, so, you know, we get these phones.

[A]

But is your thought like, well, when you can pay for the plan and the phone. Oh, yeah, right. Okay.

[B]

Yes. Okay. I have told them that I will never purchase an iPhone for you. And so. But my original thought was, while you're still living at our house, no iPhones. I have kind of gone back from that a little bit. And so we're just taking it a day at a time right now. But as of now, they're still okay with it. I still hear complaints almost every day. Pinwheel phones are a pain in the butt, but in some ways they're okay. I mean, they're way better than anything. You know, it would have been going on 20 years ago, but they're a pain in that they mess up because they are an Android. And most of our family has iPhones. So we have a family chat that we are very active in in our group chat, and their messages get messed up a lot of times. They don't. Sometimes they don't get the messages, they can't watch the videos. The pictures will be blurry. And so it's not ideal. But what I've heard you talk about this, and I completely agree. It doesn't have to be ideal. You know, that's part of the learning.

[A]

Those can be a little hard.

[B]

Yeah, right. Yeah. They haven't. It hasn't been perfect, but.

[A]

Okay. Okay. I interviewed the founder of the Wise Phone recently, and I'm going to start using that phone tomorrow, actually.

[B]

And dog tomorrow experience.

[A]

Oh, that's for 30 days. I'm going to use that exclusively, except for there's just got to be. It doesn't have social media, so I'll have my Instagram on my iPhone and you can't post from a computer or anything to that one. So I'm just going to leave it at my desk all the time. It's going to be here. So when I need to do something on it, I do it here and then I walk away from it. So I don't bring the iPhone around with me. Well, and it won't have the SIM card, so it'll just be on wifi anyways. So it won't be. It'll just be very minorly used anyway. I'm going to document that. But the Wise Phone founder talked about how, like, it's supposed to be a little bit hard and making it a little bit hard is a good thing.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Pausing here to remind you, if you don't know already, that there is a safer device option for your kids. Safer than an iPhone, by far. And that is the Bark Phone. If you don't want your kids signing up for social media or accessing inappropriate sites, an iPhone is not going to do it. The Bark Phone starter plan comes with talk and text only. And then if, and only if you're ready to start integrating some social media access, there are advanced plans available that offer social media, but not without your approval. Plus, it has advanced content monitoring built in, which will send you alerts of potential dangers. So when it comes to a basic phone that won't distract or addict your child from healthier activities, the Bark Phone is where it's at. But if your child already has an iPhone or an Android and you don't want to switch it up, at least layer on the Bark Parental Controls app as a baseline. You can set rules around screen times, you can block certain websites and apps. You get alerts of harmful content coming their way and a ton more. And if you're interested in a watch for your child, Please check out the new bark watch. I think that when the girls, like get an iPhone again, when they make that shift, I bet because of all these skills that they're building and what seems normal to them now is like not an addictive feed and not all these, this harmful content. So I bet when they get an iPhone and maybe sign up further or get on social media more, they're going to feel. Realize that it feels bad and they're going to look at it and be like, why is it serving me all this weird stuff? And I think they're gonna have perspective.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I think that's what you're giving them it.

[B]

And it's the. One of the biggest reasons I did this was because I wanted them. I wanted them to feel what it felt like. Most of our kids don't get this opportunity, our teenagers especially, to feel what life feels like without a phone pulling at you 24 7.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so if anything, you know, they've gotten that, which I'm really happy about because it has given them some insight into this whole thing. I mean, they, you know, will go to work and, and, and they work their butts off and they'll see other. There's a lot of teenagers that work there. The others that aren't pulling their weight because they can't get off their damn phones, you know, and, and they see that and they're appreciative of not, not appreciative, I don't think yet of what I've been trying to tell them someday. Waiting for that. I hope, I hope. But, but they see that it really sucks for a lot of kids who just can't pull away from it, you know.

[A]

Yeah. And so this is, you know, these addictive smartphones are an issue for not only kids, but adults too. And you know, I just mentioned I'm going to switch to a wise phone because I've been struggling to find balance and just really finding myself reaching for it, like when I don't even know what I'm doing, like, why am I reaching for it? And all those things, hoping to reset. So was there any changes that you made after seeing the adjustments within your kids, after using a safer phone or a healthier phone? Like, is there anything you've shifted your action with on your phone? Although you don't use social media a lot, so that's probably the big, the big issue for most.

[B]

But I still, I mean, I still use my phone way more than I should and I, again, it's usually a tool, but it's still adds up to so many hours. Right. And like, podcasts and books are a big thing that I listen to them. Like the Wise Phone. Can you put that on there? Can you. You can have, like, podcasts and books on there.

[A]

Yeah, I think that does have Spotify, actually.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

Which is interesting because Spotify has some bad content.

[B]

My girl Spotify. And so, yeah, there are some, like, for the pinwheel, it will say, this is not recommended.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And Spotify is one of those. But I. Yeah, they do have that. So. Yeah, I see that.

[A]

But.

[B]

Okay. I will tell you some of the things I have done. All. All the things that, you know, you hear about. I bought just a regular old watch. Watch that I wear because you'll. You'd be surprised how often that can stop you from picking up your phone to look at the time. Yeah, good one. I've done that. I. One of the biggest things I do is just to not carry my phone around with me everywhere in the house, you know, and I love. Because I. Like I said, my girls will use my phone when. When they need to look up something on safari or whatever. Really. You know, and. And I. So, so many times over the past year, they'll be like, mom, where's your phone? And my answer has been, I don't know. And over time, I've realized, I like that answer. Yeah, I like that. I'm like, I don't know where my phone is. Just, you know, you can go look for it. Yeah. Because to me, it's like, it's not as important to me as maybe it used to be. I don't know. So I think taking stretches of time away from your phone is so important, and it brings such insight into what are we doing, you know, that we are, like, glued to these things.

[A]

Sometimes I'm carrying it around and then I'm trying to do something else, but I have my phone in my hand. It's difficult to do the other thing. And I'm like, why am I holding this?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm not even using it. And I'm struggling to do this other thing. It's crazy.

[B]

And I don't know if you do this, but every time I go in. Into anywhere in public, but mostly, I actually had a little neck and shoulder injury over the past year, so I've been to a lot of chiropractor and PT appointments, so I'm in waiting rooms a lot. And I just decided, I don't know, maybe a year or two ago, I'm not going to pull my phone out when I'm in a waiting room. And I don't know if you do that, but it is the strangest thing. I feel like I'm in some kind of dystopian novel when I'm like looking around in waiting rooms and I keep waiting, maybe somebody will notice that I'm like writing in my journal or reading a book. But guess what? Nobody notices because they're all on their phones.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This is so bizarre.

[A]

Yeah, I do the same thing and I just look around and I think about things and I, And I do. I feel kind of proud when I'm doing that because I feel like the example that I'm setting for other people, maybe someone will look and go, yeah, huh. Like she doesn't have her phone out. That's actually odd. And I. That might feel better.

[B]

Yeah, I don't know.

[A]

Like, maybe.

[B]

I hope. Well, my daughter in law, who we have a little. Our third grandchild is almost a year old and she told our family in our family text the other day that she was at an appointment, her own doctor's appointment, and she had the baby with her and she said like everybody was on their phone in the waiting room and she just decided she was gonna. And Daisy, my little granddaughter, she was trying to get some people's attention, like make eye contact with them. But nobody was making eye contact. So my daughter in law was just playing with her and hoping that somebody would notice. And somebody finally did. And so somebody, yeah, started kind of interacting and they had a little conversation and then another person, then a mother said to the daughter, oh, look at the baby, the baby's so cute. So there was a little bit of connection in the waiting room. But then my daughter in law said they all went right back to their phones, but she said that she felt so good, like really intentionally trying to just make a little connection with somebody in a waiting room. She's like, I am going to keep doing that. Like I want to. And we have to set that example.

[A]

You know, even if you're shy or even if you don't feel like chatting with someone, that doesn't mean you should pick your phone up. Like just sit and kind of stare or take note. Like write in a journal or read a magazine or a book, carry it with you. Give yourself something else to do. It doesn't mean you have to have those conversations because sometimes I just want to be in my own thoughts, but.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

But you'd be surprised, like at how good you feel after you have a connection with someone like that.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And it does block it all the time with these devices.

[B]

Yes, for sure. Have you interviewed Gabriella Nguyen Wynn? Gabriella Wynn.

[A]

She's at heart asked her and she didn't respond.

[B]

Oh, she will, she will. She is amazing. She's. She's a grad student at Harvard and she is studying public education policy I think. But she started a group there called Abstinent. She. And then she's Gen Z and she's very open about the fact that like why are we, why are us. We don't have to buy into the fact that we have to be on social media as Gen Z. Love it. Yes, I love it so much too. And I've talked to her a couple of times and she's just. I love it. And what I love is she now has a whole step by step how to get off of social media because she said it's taken her five or six years to slowly step down. And again, this is where I think if you want to do it cold turkey, you know, more power to you. And for some people that works. But I feel like that is discouraging to a lot of people who feel like I can't do it that way. So I just screw it. I'm just not going to do it at all, you know. And I. And she has that whole outline and she has been helping people, her and her organization, mostly other college students, slowly step away from social media. And so her, her message is you don't have to be on it. And so that's. I just love that, I love that message because I feel like more and more and more kids are going to, to come to come to that realization as well.

[A]

And I think parents too. I mean I wasn't on social media from 2020 to 2023, late 23 and then only joined back because of this podcast. But personally and I don't follow any friends or family members like it's just for this work and I feel great about that. So you don't have to be active on these platforms. Personally as an adult, as a teacher teen, like the harms especially for teens to me out way outweigh any small benefits of it.

[B]

Oh yeah, oh yeah, for sure. And for adults as well. For me, I found because I stepped away from it in 2022 when my family and I did a one month fast and screen fast and after that was so hard for me to get back on it, which I was surprised but it's overwhelming to me. Like it makes me anxious now and I think if it makes me anxious as a 50 something year old woman. What is it doing to our poor kids who, who have never known any different and feel have to keep up, you know, all their appearances and, and keep, you know, keep alongside and make sure they're keeping up with the Joneses and all this crap, you know.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, that's a great plug. Thank you. And hopefully she'll respond to me. Gabriella.

[B]

Gabriella.

[A]

I know

[B]

she's busy with all that Harvard school work stuff, you know.

[A]

Yeah, I know.

[B]

Also, I do have a journal that came out a few months ago that I think three or four people have bought so far on Amazon. It hasn't been a big seller, but can I show it to you?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And I have it in my stack somewhere back they've been years.

[B]

Yeah, it's our family one, but so 52 screen free experiences for families.

[A]

And I told you my kids loved like browsing through it. Yeah.

[B]

For every week there's an idea that you can do and like one of the, you know, like one of the ideas is just go leave your phones at home and go for a walk to a nearby park or something with your family and just see what does it feel like to all be without your phones. Like, is it nerve wracking? Do you feel like somebody's going to, you know, kidnap somebody and you're gonna not have a phone? You know, it's just we're so used to thinking I have my phone for any, any type of emergency that comes up. So it's just like it's a reminder for all of us as families. We all, we all could stand to have a little bit more time as families away from screens. And so that was my hope, is that we can just be more intentional about that and role modeling for our kids, that we need to have that time to step away.

[A]

Yeah. And it can be hard to do that from scratch. And I love that you've given us lots of examples and activities to suggest that people can just implement because it's good in theory. Right. And then when you're like in the day to day, it can be really hard to implement something that's different from your normal activities. So thank you for creating that resource. It really takes a lot, a lot of different resources to make real change within families. And so I'm going to link to that in the episode notes and the abstinent site because I love that as well.

[B]

Well, I just wanted to mention really quick the smartphone free childhood organization that I've been working with also over the past almost year that started in England and it's been viral over there. It hasn't been quite as popular here, but it's is, it's slowly growing. And I'm part of the leadership council over there that we're and we're just trying to help just regular old parents and other people who are interested all over the country who are trying to change, just change the norms and change the culture of screens for kids, you know. So that's been really awesome.

[A]

Great. And I'll include a link to that as well. So, Kathleen, thank you for sharing this update. I'm so glad to hear your girls are doing well and happy belated birthday to them.

[B]

That's a big one.

[A]

And we'll be in touch soon. Let's do another chat maybe in a couple months to see how things are going when they get their iPhones. I want to know how that.

[B]

Yeah, that would be interesting. That will be interesting.

[A]

Okay, we'll follow up on that.

[B]

Thank you. Okay. Thank you so much, Nikki. You're welcome. Bye. Bye.