← Scrolling 2 Death
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- [00:00]
Andy Liddell
Foreign.
- [00:08]
Nikki Petrosi
Welcome to Scrolling to Death. I am Nikki Petrosi, the host. It has been a while since I talked about something other than social media and specifically the addiction trial that just closed out in Los Angeles. But I am back coming in hot with a lawsuit against an edtech company. I wasn't planning on releasing a mini episode on this, but when I announced the law lawsuit I got hundreds and hundreds of comments, hundreds of thousands of views, parents and teachers concerned, rightly so, about the practices of ed tech companies and what's happening to our children at school. So to get you up to speed, with the help of Julie and Andy Liddell at the Edtech Law Center, I have sued an edtech company called Curriculum Associates. They are a multi billion dollar company and most people will recognize their main product which is called Iready. My children, along with 14 million other kids in grades K through 8 use iReady on their school issued devices. The lawsuit alleges that the core business model of this company is to harvest as much information as is technologically possible on our children and then monetize that data. We are alleging that this monetization involves sharing our kids personal information with dozens of other companies for a host of commercial purposes. We are also alleging that Curriculum Associates uses student information to build highly invasive psychological profiles on children that purport to predict future student behavior and performance but are often to the student's detriment. The biggest problem with this is I did not consent, schools cannot consent for this on behalf of my small children. And we are alleging that Curriculum Associates conduct around this violates both state and federal laws. What Julie and Andy have said to me repeatedly is that sending our children to school is a legal right that we have and we are entitled to and we should not have to expose our children to commerc data trafficking in order to give them an education. Millions of school age children are being exploited by companies like Curriculum Associates. An average school district uses 3,000 edtech tools in a single school year and each of our children accesses an average of 50. I don't remember giving my school consent for my children to use 50 individual ed tech apps. I don't remember them telling me what data is being extracted and who it's being shared with in order to give informed consent because that is what is required by the law and that is what this lawsuit is about. So I brought in Andy Liddell of the Edtech Law center this morning to ask him a number of questions that have come through from parents and teachers. I hope that this information is super helpful and motivating for other parents like me and all of the teachers who have responded saying how much they dread iReady and other edtech apps. You'll hear Andy talk about how this lawsuit is a class action and you can join. The best way to do that is to go to EdTech Law and fill out their contact form. So now we'll get into my conversation with attorney Andy Liddell about my lawsuit against an ed tech company. Thank you for jumping on. I'm about to go take my kids to the beach for spring break. But I had to get on with you because I started going through my Instagram comments on the announcement of our lawsuit against Curriculum Associates. So this is about their main product, Iready. And I couldn't believe, first of all, how many comments like I think I read through today, over 500. And I Andy, people are, yeah, people are really fired up, parents and teachers. And so I thought I could consolidate the questions into different themes and we could quickly go through and you can respond so that parents are up to date, teachers are up to date on what's happening with our lawsuit and what they could maybe do to support this cause as well. First, just very, very briefly, what are we alleging at a high level in this lawsuit?
- [03:55]
Andy Liddell
On important disclaimer to start. So these are all allegations and these are based on publicly available information and then also our own proprietary investigation, forensic investigation into their practices. And so at a very high level, this is a privacy lawsuit and this is a lawsuit about unjust enrichment. It's a lawsuit about a company that comes into school, takes reams information about kids, uses it itself, shares it all without appropriate parent consent. That's the problem, is that we don't know and we don't agree. And that's the problem, that we don't agree.
- [04:28]
Nikki Petrosi
We got a question from a first grade teacher who said, I agree with you. I hate I ready. But I don't see how the company is gathering the child's personal info other than their name and school. What data are they collecting? They're only aware of that name, email, maybe birth date.
- [04:41]
Andy Liddell
Okay, so if you go to page 32 of our complaint, it spans 4 or 5, 6 pages of information that this company takes about its users. And so it's more than just name, email and birthday. But that alone is pretty sensitive information about kids, especially when they're really young. Right, but then we also have personal information and demographic data, which includes things like students, race and whether they are of Hispanic or Latino origin. Their enrollment data, including the school that they're enrolled in, whether they're an English language learner, the language of their parents, even perhaps behavioral data that's gathered through a student's interaction with the program. And so what I think few of us really appreciate is the degree to which computers are essentially a camera, but for everything, right? And so it requires records every mouse movement, every interaction with these platforms and that is used to then infer things about the student's behavior. Oh, they rushed through this, they didn't give this it's due credit. And then also this very detailed psychometric and outcome data. And so there are these scores or outcomes predictors of students potential. And so what's their possible growth, what's their stretch growth? And again, in the best of all possible worlds, all this information is used only for the purposes that it's that, you know, to help kids, right? That, okay, well we know this kid, his parents don't speak English at home, he's struggling. And so we need to take that into account when we're doing reading assessments, for example. But we don't live in that world. We live in a world where we really should be asking, what's the worst thing someone can do with this information? What if it got out of school, right? What if it was being shared with certain agencies? What then? What if it's being commercialized? And so this gathering of these detailed dossiers on kids, it can't just be viewed through the lens of, oh, someone's going to help this kid. When we have reports of schools sharing information with law enforcement, we have reports of schools using predictions like these, not these exact ones necessarily, to cut kids resources off. You know, in a world where we have charter schools and they don't have to play by the exact same rules as public school, there's been reports for over a decade in places like New York City and Philadelphia where charter schools identify low performing kids and push them out so that they're not on their books anymore. This information can help them do that and that's why it's potentially dangerous. But then, yeah, you got hackers coming in. And this has happened already with a company that we sued, PowerSchool. We sued them in May of 2024, raising alarms that all this information is vulnerable to being hacked. Well then indeed later that year they were hacked and all this information was taken. And information about kids is the most valuable information there is. Because if you think about why people do cybercrime, a lot of it is in furtherance of a financial crime and that means faking Identities. And so if you have a basically a fresh Social Security number, fresh information about a kid, or fresh information that can be used to fake their identity, you know, meaning you think about all of the questions your bank asks you about what was the name of your first grade teacher or where's your elementary school, what was the street it was located on, things that only you were supposed to know. Well, that information is out there sometimes through these edtech platforms. This information is valuable on the black market as well. We already have evidence that the companies are vulnerable role to being hacked and have been hacked.
- [08:26]
Nikki Petrosi
And I think I've heard you say that sometimes kids will have credit cards taken out in their name and not know till they're 18 and apply for their own card that they have all this debt in their name.
- [08:36]
Andy Liddell
Absolutely, yeah. And it can just destroy your life. I mean, it can, you know, prevent you from getting loans for college, opening up your own line of credit, just doing the things that we all, you know, who didn't grow up in this world take for granted that, you know, I'll be able to apply for a student loan, I will be able to open up my own credit card. I won't had this ugly surprise waiting for me.
- [08:55]
Nikki Petrosi
Many parents were concerned after hearing this about Iready, but also they're asking about ixl, Prodigy, Epic. Are the threats similar for these other apps? Can you speak to that?
- [09:06]
Andy Liddell
Generally speaking, they are, you know, so some of these companies we have sued already and if you look at our complaints, we allege broadly the same things making out, you know, broadly similar violations of the law. One thing though that is different here with Iready in particular is that we've heard reports from all over the country that schools mandate a minimum number of minutes that kids use Iready every week. I haven't confirmed those myself, but I have heard reports of this happening.
- [09:40]
Nikki Petrosi
I got comments to that as well.
- [09:42]
Andy Liddell
Okay, yeah, well, I would love to hear more about that because that's what sets I ready apart from what we know is this requirement that kids use it a certain amount every week. And I've even heard reports of a school district here in Texas where teacher performance, their financial bonuses are tied to how much I ready their kids do a week. And so again, haven't confirmed it. If this is something that's happening to you in your district, I would love to hear you hear from you. But what's concerning there is that the end goal becomes I ready minutes and not teaching kids to read or do math or whatever. It's this Idea that really, the amount of time a kid spends with a platform, that's the outcome. And when that happens, we're really putting other incentives ahead of teaching kids. Right, right. And one could think like, well, who does that really benefit? And ultimately it comes down to iready, because the more time, you know, the more amount of time a kid spends with its platform, the more information is available to collect. And then on the back end, you know, this is again, just speculation, but wondering, you know, what are the internal incentives with I ready about usage metrics? You know, are there people there getting performance bonuses for, you know, their school customers using it a certain amount?
- [11:09]
Nikki Petrosi
Sounds very familiar to the social media companies who were just on trial for setting goals around time spent for minors trying to get young people to use an addictive product product more and more every day. Rings a bell.
- [11:23]
Andy Liddell
It sure does. Yeah. Yeah. Engagement as a metric of success is really, really dangerous and it harms the user. In an edtech product whose purpose is to educate children, those incentives should be perfectly aligned. And when you have engagement at the metric, they just aren't.
- [11:41]
Nikki Petrosi
Wow. Okay. What can parents do? That is a lot of the questions that came through. Firstly, can parents opt out? Do you have any insight on that?
- [11:49]
Andy Liddell
So, yes, but practically speaking, no. Right. And so that's the point of these lawsuits that we're bringing. That's the point of this specific lawsuit, is that parents have rights and kids have privacy rights. Parents have rights over that information. It's been enshrined in law in this country for over 50 years about education records at school. And these exact same concerns were what animated the passage of ferpa, which is the Family Educational Rights and Privacy act of 1974. These exact issues of what information is being taken, how is it being used, who's it being shared with, what are they doing with it? If you read legislative history, it's fascinating to see how these concerns have really not been addressed. And so that law is meant to enshrine your constitutional expectation of privacy at school. The idea that this isn't sensitive information or that school, a government agency can just decide for you how much your kid will be surveilled and who gets to have that information. It's just contrary to, as Senator Buckley, who sponsored the bill, contrary to a free society. Because all of this surveillance, all of this data vacation commodification of human experience is really, really hostile to, to a free country. And that's why we're so concerned about it.
- [13:17]
Nikki Petrosi
Yeah, absolutely. And parents are too. And teachers are too and parents are asking if this is a class action and if so, can they sign up?
- [13:26]
Andy Liddell
So it is a class action, but we definitely like to hear from you. And so the best way to get in touch with us is to go to our website, which is EdTech Law E D T E C H Law. And there's a contact us button at the top. Click that, fill out the form, and then one of our staff will be in touch with you, you know, within one to two days.
- [13:47]
Nikki Petrosi
Okay. And then one note for teachers. So I can't tell you how many teachers said they hate I ready they. And they dread using it and are trying to show support. Is there anything that teachers can do?
- [13:59]
Andy Liddell
Yeah, push back. You know, push back. No. Nobody got into teaching to be a proctor for iReady or any other edtech product. Right, right. It's not why you're here. These companies purport to make your life easier, but hearing it directly from teachers, I haven't heard that that's really the case. And a lot of that tech exists to paper over a lot of really poor work conditions for teachers. This idea that these problems are solvable by doing anything other than paying teachers more, respecting them, giving them autonomy, that doesn't benefit teachers. And so if you're in a state with strong education, union, junior protection, work with your union. That's what your union is for. Trying to take this on by yourself, that's a recipe for failure. But building consensus around this, having these conversations, talking about it, that's a recipe for success. And once you start surfacing these issues in your local union, it influences it all the way up. And eventually you have a lot of bargaining power to say, well, this isn't a workplace we want. This is. This isn't a place that, that feels good to go to work. It doesn't allow us to discharge our professional duty with, with our students. We're just here monitoring some computer program, finding some strength in numbers, whatever that looks like, and sharing stories and, you know, eventually pushing back.
- [15:24]
Nikki Petrosi
And that can mean bringing parents and teachers together. We don't have to be on separate sides of this. And I think we're really aligned. And there are major school districts who are coming together in the hundreds or thousands and pushing back on. On practices like this one. Okay, last question. And this is just for fun, because there's always haters when I post something. And so this person says about me, she's a grifting shyster who saw a loophole to make a buck and is spreading propaganda to get people to Sign her grift.
- [15:55]
Andy Liddell
Wow. A lot. A lot's packed in there.
- [15:58]
Nikki Petrosi
Yeah.
- [15:59]
Andy Liddell
You know, I would just say to that person, read the complaint. You know, class action lawsuits are not ways for people to make a lot of money. It's a way to. For a lot of people who are being cheated a little bit to come together and hold companies responsible. And so, you know, you don't. I, you know, hope this doesn't come as a surprise to you. You don't really stand to make a lot of money here in this law school.
- [16:26]
Nikki Petrosi
That's not my goal, Andy.
- [16:28]
Andy Liddell
Right, right. But. But we can. We can force change and we, this company to. If we prove our claims in court, as I'm confident that we will pay back what it owes and not just take all of the stuff for free without consent, without compensation.
- [16:44]
Nikki Petrosi
Right. And in the end, I had to take my kids out of the public school system because of things like this and a number of practices that were being done to my family and to my kids that I disagreed with. And it's why so many comments on this announcement of the lawsuit were, you should homeschool. You should homeschool. And the problem is a lot of people can't homeschool. I can't homeschool. I have to find a solution where I feel like my kids are safe. And unfortunately, using platforms like I ready, I don't feel is safe for them. And so luckily, we have firms like Ed Tech Law center taking the lead on supporting families and changing the policies and shining a light on all of this so that parents and teachers are prioritizing the children and not tech companies. So, Andy, thank you so much for doing this last minute. And we will keep parents updated and teachers updated as this event involves.