Sarah Wynn-Williams can't speak, so I will.

Thu Mar 13 2025

Summary

Podcast Summary: Scrolling 2 Death
Host: Nicki Petrossi
Episode: Sarah Wynn-Williams can't speak, so I will.
Date: March 13, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode centers on the experiences and revelations of Facebook whistleblower Sarah Wynn-Williams, drawing extensively from her book Careless People. Host Nicki Petrossi summarizes key insights and anecdotes from Sarah’s time at Facebook (2011–2018), focusing particularly on the ways Meta (formerly Facebook) prioritizes growth and profit over user safety—especially the safety of children and teens. The episode serves as both a whistleblowing exposé and a cautionary message to parents.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Early Enthusiasm and the Facebook Culture (00:45 – 03:00)

Sarah's Early Days:
Sarah joined Facebook out of a belief in its positive potential, recalling how it was once "a digital common ground" for safe connection, especially to her roots in New Zealand.
Cult-like Work Environment:
Sarah describes Facebook's culture as "us against the world," where work is life.
- Quote: “Working at Facebook isn’t your job, it’s your life.” (~01:30)
- Motherhood Struggles: The company expected “mothering [to be] invisible,” putting intense pressure on parents, particularly mothers.

Internal Hypocrisy and Leadership (03:00 – 06:00)

Dissonance with Sheryl Sandberg:
Despite Lean In's pro-working-women message, the real culture was demanding and unsupportive of parental roles.
- Quote (attributed to Sheryl Sandberg): “The punishing scale of work is by design. The staffers should be given too much to do because it’s best if no one has spare time.” (~03:30)
Executives Protecting Their Children:
Facebook execs often kept their own children off social media and smartphones, implying an awareness of its dangers.
- Nicki Petrossi: “Why do Facebook executives protect their own children but not ours?” (~05:15)

The Priority of Growth Over Safety (06:00 – 08:30)

Profit and Growth at Any Cost:
Zuckerberg’s priorities “are mostly pretty horrible and ignorant of the human costs,” particularly regarding children.
Facebook’s growth team operated in “gray areas” due to minimal regulation, especially concerning children’s online protections.
Lack of Regulation:
US federal law hasn’t kept pace with technology; “no federal laws have passed...since the late 90s, before any of this social media even existed.” (~07:30)
Meta’s Legal Philosophy:
- Quote: “Facebook American leadership believes that the values it defines can trump national laws when they conflict.” (~07:45)
  Meta often skirted foreign and domestic laws to maximize engagement and profit.

Targeting Vulnerable Teens (08:30 – 11:00)

Advertising to At-Risk Youth:
Facebook gave advertisers data to target teens during emotionally vulnerable moments.
- Leaked presentation (April 2017): Advertisers could “target 13- to 17-year-olds during moments of psychological vulnerability,” such as feeling “worthless, insecure, anxious, stupid or useless,” even tracking actions like deleting selfies to push beauty ads.
  - Quote: “There are examples of Facebook offering a beauty product company data to show when a girl deletes a selfie so they can serve her a beauty ad in that exact moment.” (~10:10)
Denial and Cover-Up:
After the leak, Facebook publicly denied using emotional state targeting, which Sarah calls “a flat out lie.” (~10:50)

Broader Company Misconduct (11:00 – 13:00)

Workplace Culture:
Details from Sarah’s book include her experiences with sexual harassment and mistreatment during pregnancy.
International Complicity:
- Facebook worked with the Chinese Communist Party, developing censorship and data tools for China while denying it to US Congress.
- The company allegedly allowed, even instigated, political violence during the Myanmar genocide against Muslims.
Mark Zuckerberg’s True Priorities:
Sarah’s inside perspective illustrates that user welfare is not a concern for top leadership.

Urgent Call to Action for Parents (13:00 – END)

Sarah’s Message:
People “deserve to know what the company is really like.”
Nicki strongly urges parents not to let their teens or children use Instagram, Facebook, “or any social media company that prioritizes growth over human lives.” (~14:30)
Book Availability and Censorship:
Sarah faces legal pressure to stop distributing her book—listeners are encouraged to seek it out and share their own stories to promote change.
Final Thank You:
- Nicki to Sarah: “Thank you for telling your story. Thank you for having the bravery and the strength to tell us what’s really going on behind the scenes so that parents like me can make informed and safe decisions...” (~15:00)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Facebook Culture:
“Working at Facebook isn’t your job, it’s your life.” (~01:30)
On Work-Life Balance:
“[Sandberg:] The punishing scale of work is by design. The staffers should be given too much to do because it’s best if no one has spare time.” (~03:30)
On Parental Hypocrisy:
“Why do Facebook executives protect their own children but not ours?” (~05:15)
On Growth Philosophy:
“[Zuckerberg’s] priorities...are mostly pretty horrible and ignorant of the human costs. Human costs are children.” (~06:20)
On Legal Compliance:
“Facebook American leadership believes that the values it defines can trump national laws when they conflict.” (~07:45)
On Teen Targeting:
“Facebook was telling advertisers when teens feel worthless, insecure, anxious, stupid or useless so the advertiser can target them when they’re worried about their bodies...” (~09:50)
On Parental Advice:
“Please do not let your teenager or child on Instagram or Facebook or any social media company that prioritizes growth over human lives.” (~14:30)

Important Timestamps

00:45 – Sarah’s early years and motivations for joining Facebook
03:30 – Description of Facebook’s demanding, unsupportive culture for mothers
05:15 – Discussion of executive hypocrisy around kids and social media
07:30 – Examination of regulatory vacuums and Meta’s exploitation of them
09:50 – Revelations about targeted advertising to emotionally vulnerable teens
11:00 – Allegations of international complicity and workplace abuse
14:30 – Nicki’s strong final message to parents and closing thanks to Sarah

Tone and Takeaways

The episode is urgent, candid, and protective, with Nicki channeling Sarah Wynn-Williams’s warnings directly to parents. The overall message is clear: Meta’s pursuit of growth comes at a high cost to families and society, and parents must be proactive in safeguarding their children from social media’s dangers.

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Transcript

A (0:00)

Foreign. Has silenced Facebook whistleblower Sarah Wynn Williams and telling her stories her experience working at Facebook from July 2011 until 2018. I was booked to interview Sarah this morning to let parents know the extent of the harm and the lack of responsibility that truly exists for within Meta's executive team. Without being able to hear from Sarah directly, I'm going to summarize and give some insight into the book Careless People by Sarah Wynn Williams. Sarah started pitching herself for a job at Facebook in 2010. She loved Facebook in the early days, how it connected her with family and friends in her home country of New Zealand. She loved that it was a digital common ground where we could all connect and at the time it felt like a safe way to connect with others. And maybe it was. Sarah wanted to be part of Facebook and the positive changes that it could bring to the world. So Sarah got the job and she was optimistic about her role at Facebook. She describes it as the innocent days when it was still possible to be hopeful. Sarah describes what it was like to work at Facebook. It sounds almost cultish. She described it as us against the world, and her world was Facebook. Sarah says that working at Facebook isn't your job, it's your life, and that became difficult when Sarah became pregnant for the first time. She says that the expectation at Facebook is that mothering is invisible now. This is in stark contrast to the COO at the time of Facebook, Sheryl Sandberg and her book Lean In. Sheryl's actual approach as COO of Facebook is described as this. Sarah quotes Cheryl as saying the punishing scale of work is by design. The staffers should be given too much to do because it's best if no one has spare time. That's where the trouble and the territoriality start. The fewer IT employees, the harder the work, and the answer to work is more work. Sarah describes different international trips that she took as a pregnant woman and mother and the lack of support during those experiences. Sarah talked about how parents at Facebook would regularly talk about how their teens aren't allowed to have smartphones, let alone social media access, which underscores how well these executives understand the real damage that their product inflicts on young people. It raises the question, why do Facebook executives protect their own children but not ours? Sarah shares quote Mark Zuckerberg had developed priorities, and they're mostly pretty horrible and ignorant of the human costs. Human costs are children. Go back to any of my interviews with parent survivors who have lost children to something that happened directly on social media, instigated by the harmful Algorithm, the connections to predators or drug dealers, the prioritization of dangerous challenges. For Facebook now Meta, their goal has always been growth. Sarah described the growth team at Facebook as fast and loose, always looking for opportunities in the gray area created by lack of regulation. When it comes to protections for children online, there is no greater lack of regulation. No federal laws have passed here in the United States to protect children since the late 90s, before any of this social media even existed. Sarah wrote that, quote, facebook American leadership believes that the values it defines can trump national laws when they conflict. So Meta actively preys upon the lack of regulation to target our children, collect their data, serve them ads, keep them scrolling longer. In fact, the growth team would often talk about, quote, juicing the algorithm to favor the growth of Facebook. By October 2012, the growth strategies had worked and Facebook reaches 1 billion users. The head of growth at the time, Javier Olivan, shared, quote, the first billion users are the easy billion. He he says after that you get into issues like how to reach children, how to get into places like China that are hostile to any social media site. So how did they get to children? Well, in April 2017, a presentation was confidentially leaked that reveals Facebook offered advertisers the opportunity to target 13 to 17 year olds during moments of psychological vulnerability when they're in a fragile emotional state. Facebook was telling advertisers when teens feel worthless, insecure, anxious, stupid or useless so the advertiser can target them when they're worried about their bodies or thinking about losing weight. There are examples of Facebook offering a beauty product company data to show when a girl deletes a selfie so they can serve her a beauty ad in that exact moment. So the leak of these documents really upset Facebook executives and they devised a cover up. According to Sarah, the statement I'm about to read is a flat out lie. Facebook issued this statement, quote, facebook does not offer tools to target people based on their emotional state. The book is a wild ride. It goes further into Sarah's experience with sexual harassment mistreatment during her pregnancies. She goes into great detail on how Facebook worked hand in glove with the Chinese Communist Party to allow the CCP to censor and control content in their country. Facebook created data collection and censorship tools specifically for China and denied doing so in front of the United States Congress. Sarah alleges that Facebook allowed and even instigated political violence during the genocide of Muslims in Myanmar. She gives an inside look into what Mark Zuckerberg is really like behind the scenes, what he really cares about. And it is not us, the users of his platforms. Sarah believes that people deserve to know what the company is really like, and she does just that in her book, Careless people Please grab a copy before they run out. Because Sarah has been forbidden from printing and distributing any more copies. You can go to sarah wynnwilliams.com to get her book, but I encourage anyone that's been harmed by these companies to speak out. We need stories like Sarah's and stories like yours to reach the ear of lawmakers so that we can actually regulate these companies, stop them from harming children in order to keep adding zeros to their profit statements. And lastly, when it comes to parents, I really looked forward to asking Sarah if she feels that Facebook and Instagram are safe for teenagers. I fully expected her to tell me no, but with the lack of being able to talk to her about her book, I'm just going to tell you no. Please do not let your teenager or child on Instagram or Facebook or any social media company that prioritizes growth over human lives. And to Sarah Wynn Williams, thank you for telling your story. Thank you for having the bravery and the strength to tell us what's really going on behind the scenes so that parents like me can make informed and safe decisions when it comes to our children's use of social media.