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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to Scrolling to Death. You guys are in for a treat. So this is an episode of Teachers Talk here on Scrolling to Death. I got to connect with Jessica Moore, who is a teacher in Alaska. She has had a front row seat to seeing how screens are affecting preteens in her classroom. There's a lot to learn here for parents, a lot of takeaways. Jessica and I go in a lot of different directions. So I hope you enjoy this conversation and continue to make safe decisions around tech for our kids. This episode is sponsored by Bark Technologies. I am truly grateful as a parent that we have safer options for our kids. We don't have to default to an iPhone. The Bark phone helps families with young kids or teenagers ramp up online safety, really protect our kids, get alerts if something harmful happens or comes across their feed. We can really manage their entire digital experience safely. More on Bark in the episode notes. But let's get into my conversation with Jessica Moore. Haven't gotten legislation passed is because big tech spends so much, so much, so many millions of dollars lobbying against it in states like little bills that just are for Mississippi or I was just talking about the stad with yeah, the big tech companies showed up to lobby against his bill and it didn't go through. And it's like but or bigger bills like Kids Online Safety act that could have protected children. It could have saved children's lives already.
- [01:14]
B
And I think as parents we have this false sense of security that like I trust my government and I vote and I do all of these things and I think like we in good faith that technology is wonderful and our kids and they would never sorry it makes me emotional that our kids would never intentionally be harmed. And it's like there, there's and I wish I could scream that from the mountaintops to every parent there are no safety measures. You are it. As a parent, you are it. And I think that's just where I like so sorry, I don't mean to get emotional about it.
- [01:52]
A
That's okay. And that is not fair because parents are fighting a losing battle. We are, you know, doing our best letting our kids have some kind of access so they can just socialize and then they're getting quick added with, you know, predators or drug dealers or they're
- [02:10]
B
getting served suicide videos like so concerning to me as both an educator, as a parent, as a human to go, I know so many parents who are brilliant, well educated, kind, intentional parents that have no idea what's going on. And that's what's scary to me. And I Tell. So I tell kids in my class all the time, like, you're never going to see this information unless you go thoroughly search for it. Because is the media gonna put this information out? There are these statistics, they're not gonna show up across your feet. P.S. you've been scrolling TikTok for three hours and this is wildly detrimental to your health. Sorry. Right, we're gonna stop our, you know, no, that's never gonna happen. And so I think it's such a daunting thing as a parent to go, how do I be intentional about this? How do I protect my kid? You know, I, I think so often, you know, Nikki, I have young kids. I have a two and a half year old and a four and a half year old. And I go, I think about all the thought that's gone into their sleep schedules, safe sleep, their vaccine schedules, the foods that we introduce, all of these things. And it's like, yeah, you know, technology, I, I would argue, or just, I mean, not even my opinion, the research shows like that's more dangerous than any, anything that we have to face as parents. So.
- [03:43]
A
Yeah, I know. And, and I think that historically we thought more tech is going to be great. Like they're going to be tech experts and they're going to have great jobs in tech and they're going to learn so much from these devices and it's going to be so great. And it was the tech companies telling us this through their funded research and their lobbying and all these things.
- [04:04]
B
So you fell for it. Well, and to be fair, I even like when I look at my own tech use, like in my 20s, I'm in my upper 30s now, and I look at my own tech use and I, oh my God, that was so wildly problematic. But I am someone who always like, I don't want your anecdotal research, I don't want your own opinion, I don't want your own experience. I want to see what the research says. I've always been like that. Like, I am easily swayed by people's opinions or I empathize with people and go, okay, I trust you. It's, you know, and yeah, false sense of security in good thinking that these tech companies, I'm like, well, they would never intentionally harm children who would do that. And so, but now, now we have the benefit of some longitudinal research.
- [04:58]
A
Right?
- [04:59]
B
I mean, it's, it's there and it's coming out. And that's where I kind of got into this space of like, oh my God, you know, I read a couple books and being in, you know, I teach sixth grade. I teach fourth, fifth, and sixth grade, but I'm like, oh, my God, you guys, put your phones down. This is so catastrophic. And so, yeah, it's just one of those.
- [05:23]
A
And I just. I imagine teachers just being so. It must be sad because you only have so much power. And, you know, these kids are going home and just on their phone all night or in their bedroom after bedtime. And you must just be like, I don't have the power. I just want to control all of it.
- [05:38]
B
I'll share with you. I have such. I have such an incredible opportunity because I have kids for three years, so I'm a Montessori public charter in Alaska. And so I get kiddos in fourth grade. And so I get them right at that cusp of, like, most of them are wanting phones if they don't have a phone. They're wanting a phone, and they want a smartphone and they want an iPhone. They're obsessed with knowing what kind of phone I have, which is ironic. Like, oh, do you have. My iPhone? Is like 6 years old. Because I'm like, man, I'm refusing to get a new one. But. And so being able to share this information and share some of the statistics with them and talk to them about their own tech use. And so I get them in fourth grade, and I have them all the way to sixth grade through sixth grade and become my family. I feel like I have 25 kids and to where I get to love you so much. This is so bad for you. Here's why I know. And I get. And I feel like that I have such. I'm so blessed in that they know that I love them and so they'll listen more. But I have sixth grade girls who will come and talk to me about their tech use. And that's hard because it's that weird, nuanced thing where it's like, okay, well, your parents might say this is okay. But here's what the statistics would show you is that, yeah, risk of depression and anxiety, the more you use this, you know, it's a correlation. And so anyway, yeah, yeah, I kind
- [07:14]
A
of love the teachers staying with a classroom. For multiple years, I've been looking at the Waldorf schools and learning about those and that they stay for preferably eight years. I just think that that is fascinating and really great. Like, I'm watching at the end of my kids last year, so they're second and God, first and second. First and second grade award ceremonies. And the teachers are giving an award to Them and it's like the most unpersonalized, like, sentence. And I'm like, you don't even know my kid.
- [07:44]
B
I just feel so bad. It's funny you say that. I say all the time. At the end of a kid's fourth grade year, I'm just starting to figure out as their teacher what makes them tick, how I say all the time, like, that's when I'm learning what their love language is, how they receive love in the classroom. Because that's like, the basis of teaching if, like, you don't. It comes down to relationship. And if they don't feel loved, like, it's that hierarchy of needs, you know? Yeah. I say all the time, like, I don't think I could ever just teach a straight grade.
- [08:17]
A
Yeah.
- [08:17]
B
Because of the benefits that come with rolling. And so, yeah. If you're considering it, I cannot say enough good things. Like, I. By the time a kid leaves in sixth grade, like, and same thing, they know me. They know that it's just a really beautiful relationship. And, yeah. I don't think I could ever go back. So there's a lot, a lot of good that comes with. And especially, like, family relationships, too. Building families. I have to share hard things with parents, you know, when they know that, like, well, you've had my kid. Or like, I'm so blessed and that I will have families. So. So I'll have one kid for three years and then their sibling will come in and then their sibling. Like, I have one family I've had for, I think, nine years. I've had one of their kids. And yeah. And it's just always. And so again, when I have to share hard things, which there's a lot of that in teaching, they know it comes from a place of genuine love and. Yeah. Empathy and compassion. As a parent, like, parenting is like this whole space that we're in right now. I also want to say, like, there's zero judgment. It is so hard to be a parent in today's world.
- [09:29]
A
Yeah.
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B
With all the noise and all the judgment and, like, I genuinely believe that we all want to do right by our kids. Like, no one would intentionally make a poor choice for their children for the sake of. It's easier or toxifies. Like, that's the tricky part about tech.
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A
Yeah. And that's one big message I'm trying to push is stop blaming parents. Because I'm getting just a lot of comments
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B
like, parenting is hard enough. That's why, like, when I read, you know, when you see the research or there's a couple books that I think, like, I feel like they should hand you a copy when you leave the hospital. Like, here you go.
- [10:10]
A
Yeah.
- [10:11]
B
Because I. I say all the time, like, the research is not that. That's always amazing to me. The research is not out there in a way that I would think would be easily consumable for a busy parent. Or that's why, like, I'm so grateful for your podcast. I can put one ear in and do chores. And like, there's a couple like yours that. It's like, this information is so important. But as busy parents, like, I can barely get my kids out the door in the morning. Like, I don't have time to sit down. No. And read.
- [10:44]
A
No. Consolidate. And then also. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's hard. And weed through all of the. Also, there's just so much spending by Big Tech on research. So you have to weed through, like, funded by and.
- [11:00]
B
And understand, like, exactly who's funding the research.
- [11:04]
A
Yeah.
- [11:04]
B
Vet a source. That's one thing that's been so, like, I wrote down some points that, like, I wanted to. To discuss a little bit, and one of them is just speaking of vetting a source. Like, I think as adults, we understand, you know, oh, if Big Tech is funding this study, you can skew statistics in so many ways. You really can. Yeah. And I think the disinformation for parents and the disinformation for kids that, you know, I can always tell my kiddos who have access to social media because the things that they come to school saying, and, you know, I have to be very, very calm and very, like, I can never let my opinion down. I have to be a very benign medium. But it's like, where did you hear that? You know, and it's just, if we're living in a really bizarre time because kids are taking that, they don't know how to vet a source. They don't understand the nuanced things behind research.
- [12:10]
A
Well, in TikTok, like, TikTok is a bad one for, like, selling kids lies. And TikTok tells kids, in so many words, trust us. Don't trust your parents. Don't trust your teachers. Don't trust anyone. This is where you're going to get the real information. And this is where you should go to when you're having a problem is come to TikTok. There's literal videos. Basically, that's like what it's saying to a kid.
- [12:31]
B
So we've talked a lot. I'll share with you a funny story this year. And it Actually happened a couple years ago, but I was teaching a lesson. I. We do use technology in our school. So even though we're a Montessori school, our upper elementary, we have a one to one computer. I have a computer cart in my room. Each kid gets to find one. We use it for research and things like that, which I like. Again, I am not an anti tech person. I think that responsibly. But it's the entertainment technology, it's the entertainment, the social media for kids. I think that is extremely problematic. But anyway, I was talking about, I was teaching a lesson on how to cite or find a credible source. You know, we look at Edu and I went into this big thing.org that can be it, that could be a, you know, an okay source. And then I went to.gov and I had a couple kids say well.gov's not good. Like you can't trust the government. And I'm like oh. Which I mean, hey, we want to, we want to raise critical thinkers. We want to like entertain opinions that are not of their own and have civil discourse. But it's like, you know, for, for a nine year old to say well we don't trust.gov, it's like oh, trusting, you know, things like that.
- [13:51]
A
And again like where are they getting that from?
- [13:55]
B
You know, and it's just, and there's been a couple of things like that throughout. I've been teaching, I think 10 years now. And it's like, it's just we're live, we're living in a really interesting time where you know, I just would ask every parent to like not go into handing it your. When your kid gets a smartphone, like don't do it because of societal pressure or peer pressure or their friends have one. It has to be something that you as a family research you as a family sit down and you know, hear each other out, have, have a conversation, show your kids. I think so often as parents and as teachers, when we're dealing with teens and preteens, you know, even nine year olds to let's say 14 year olds, I think so often we dumb things down for them when we shouldn't. We like for me, like I, you'll appreciate this. I have the anxious generation in seven beautiful supplemental notes. I put that data up for kids that. Did you know that since the smartphone has, you know, come online, girls in the US their anxiety rates have risen astronomically. Their depression rates, there's been 145% increase in depression. That's correlated with smartphone and social media use. Kids aren't dumb. And they are. And I think so often when we don't share this information with them in a way that is collaborative, we miss out on that connection, that connection with our kid to say, I'm not the bad guy. I know you want a phone, but I can't in good conscience hand you something that's going to increase your chance of anxiety and depression in the most critical period of your time of your life.
- [15:51]
A
Right. And if you would think if parents knew that stat and really understood it that they would just delay as long as possible. But that's not what is happening. But I do think these conversations can start really young. Like I just spoke in my little 3 year old's class to 3 and 4 year olds about screens and what's good about them and bad about them, that kind of stuff. And then I also, I talked to my almost 9 year old a lot about. She overhears things that I do and then she, she really has a disdain for phones and things like that now. But I told her I have an interview today with a dad and she said, did the dad lose a child? And I said yes to something that happened on social media. And so she has an understanding of how serious it can get. Now obviously I'll have to teach her how to use technology and teach her how to use it safely.
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B
It's a great conversation too.
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A
Yeah, yeah.
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B
But I think that that's brilliant parenting because kids, kids innately also something that I love to do with my sixth graders. We do this thing called middle school prep. And I think I shared with you that I teach on tech addiction. And it's like that age group man, they innately want to fight the man. If you show them the statistics and the research. I every year have kids say like I'm giving my phone back to my parents. This is wildly, like I always say the word wildly cute. I love that this is wildly irresponsible. It's like I was great. And to share with that there is. Yeah. Legislation in place to protect them.
- [17:25]
A
Right.
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B
That's, I love that is, I, I, I again something I, I would implore every parent is to like not rest on the fact that like oh, it's safe, everyone's doing it. No, it's not like I would like there are doctors and who have made their lives work. Exactly what we're talking about. They call that digital heroin. Would you give Heroin to your 11 year old? You know, it just, yeah, it gets really messy.
- [17:55]
A
It does. And I love the thought about that. Kids at this age, they don't want to be controlled. And teaching them that they are the product, teaching them that these platforms are addicting them and manipulating their thoughts and their decisions and their behavior through these algorithms. Like, we can totally teach young teens and kids.
- [18:18]
B
We can't as parents. We can't be the enemy. We can't. It can't be that. Well, you're just a mean mom who won't let me. You're trying to make me an outcast with my friends. Like, I have. I have these conversations in my classroom a lot. And like, so much of it comes down to where if I don't have a smartphone or if I don't have this, like, I won't be able to get a hold of my parents or I have a divorced family, so I need a smartphone, or how would my friends ever get a hold of me? I would have no social life. And so I get to have these conversations of, well, did you know that there's actually smartphones called a gab phone or a barcode that allow you to be connected, but don't let scary strangers with the intent to harm you contact you, you know?
- [19:05]
A
Exactly.
- [19:06]
B
I would just encourage every parent to have those conversations with your kids and share the research. And there's a couple of really phenomenal books that like, again, I don't know who in today's day and age has time to read, but one of them that really started my, like, just my awakening with this space, it's called Wired Child. Have you read that?
- [19:30]
A
No, I have it right here.
- [19:32]
B
It's Wired Child. It's Richard Freed. He's PhD. Okay. Yeah. He's an adolescent psychologist. And that was written in 2015 and I got my hands on it probably six years ago. And even the research then was catastrophic. Like, I got it and was like, oh, God, this is.
- [19:54]
A
Yeah.
- [19:56]
B
And there's another one that I would recommend to all parents, and this is especially for parents. Like you said, you have a three year old, I have a two and a four year old. This is such a phenomenal book. Have you heard of Spoiled, right?
- [20:09]
A
No.
- [20:09]
B
So it's Spoiled, right? It's written by Megan Owens. She has a PhD. She's a counseling psychologist and a professor at Penn State University. Okay.
- [20:20]
A
And it's R I G H, T spelled right.
- [20:22]
B
Yep. Spoiled, right? Okay. Yeah. This for young toddlers or parents of young children. It just beautifully condenses all of the research and makes it in little tangible bites. Like, again, I'm someone that, like, people's anecdotal Experience. I'm like, oh, I can be swayed one way or the other. But the research is very, very, very clear. And one thing that I would say is like teachers are tired. We are, I think if you spoke and I've listened to some of your interviews with teachers, like we're all collectively tired. And I think especially like all for different reasons. But something that I've noticed in just teaching in 10 years is that like attention, fragmentation, just kids not being able to attune to a task that's gotten progressively worse. And like executive functioning with kids being able to self regulate and regulate their emotions when things get hard or when they're in an uncomfortable space. So younger kids, that's becoming less and less of a skill. And I really. And the research would show you it's not just my opinion, it's because of the, A lot of times we're not allowing kids to experience boredom. We're not allowing them. We're using entertainment technology to. And I get it, like I have toddlers, I understand how hard it is sometimes to get things done. But I think sometimes entertainment technology can become a crutch and it's depriving kids of that real world experience to sit in an uncomfortable place to say I'm frustrated, I'm bored, I'm angry. How do I deal with that? And so we're seeing that come out on the other side and that gets exhausting from a teaching perspective to where we're supposed to be teaching one. But now we're teaching emotional regulation that I'm not necessarily equipped to teach kids. Does that make sense?
- [22:36]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And I want to talk more about the effect of phones in the classroom and have some questions about that. But it's really interesting you, it's interesting you mentioned research specifically related to this because I filmed a video and I wasn't going to post it because I feel like, do people really care about research?
- [22:53]
B
But I guess I don't think so.
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A
I know, but I don't get a lot of like, I feel like the stories really hit you. But I, I have to balance it out with research and I, I typically do. But this one was about a new study that proves that when you hand parents hand a digital device to kids during tantrums or meltdowns, there's really big short and long term effects around self regulatory skills.
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B
And that's a wonderful job.
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A
Okay.
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B
Condensing that information. Yeah. And I mean just think about it. I think, I think when you sign as a parent and say, okay, my kid is. Or you know, we're gonna go to the grocery store and then instead of teaching my kid that no, like our bottoms stay in the grocery cart, like, this is boring, but we're gonna do this together. You know, you look and you see and there again, there's no judgment because I've been there too, where it's like, oh my God, someone turn on Ms. Rachel. Like we're gonna pacify. But what that does is it, it bypasses their emotional. Like kids are able to do that. Kids are able. The longer you do it. And it's a practice skill, it's a taught skill. And the more opportunity we have to practice it, the better they are, the better.
- [24:10]
A
And that's how you learn something, right? Your brain learns a skill, is practicing it over and over. This study was interesting because it was saying that if you give the child a tablet a lot to deal with a big emotion or being uncomfortable, the child becomes unable to choose a deliberate response to a situation and can instead cannot control their reaction. So their actual reactions to situations become even bigger and more crazy than if you just have sit through it and have them deal with it and then practice that skill. And also with brain development, it's like building blocks. So you miss that time frame where they're developing those neurons.
- [24:53]
B
For every they are, they're building blocks. And there's a critical period for each one. And emotional regulation really like you look like hopefully by five we're zoning in on that and hopefully we're nailing that down. And I would argue just like as a. And actually I keep saying I would argue, but the research supports that we have to explicitly teach those skills to kids do not know how to innately calm themselves down or to ride away or they go into fight or flight. There's a ton of brain research about that. And when we rob them of those opportunities to learn that skill, then it just becomes harder and harder and then it just because, you know, they, the saying of like they wire together, they fire together the more you use it in your brain. And then I've been able to watch that in my own, in my own two kids. They're both, they both have very sensitive temperaments. It has not been easy to my 4 year old. He's incredible and super intelligent and the most empathetic kid. But he, you know, two to three, I thought we were like going to die just because I knew the brain research. Like my, actually my bachelor's is in early childhood education. So I'm like, I know all the development, I know all the Things. Here we go. But then to practice, I'm like, this is tough. Like, and now coming out on the other side of it to where he's four and a half and he can't self regulate and he knows the things to do. But those skills have to also, like, what are your choices when you're frustrated you can't haul off and whack your two year old sister? What are the things you can do to emotionally regulate? And he'll go sit down and do some breathing or count to himself or, you know, certain things. Or sometimes he says like, he needs to come sit by me and like hold my hand and calm down. And it's. Yeah. And again, that's in my very best parenting days. There's other days where complete zoo. But it's like I'm seeing just kiddos who had, just who have never had to work through that uncomfortable space. Or like the apathy with school, schoolwork of like handwriting is boring. I don't want to handwrite. Well, yeah, it's boring, but it's a skill you need to have. So here we go. Come on. You can do hard things. And it's like, I have, you know, every teacher everywhere has dealt with kids who are like, I can't do this, I won't do this. This is too hard. And it's because I shouldn't say it's because oftentimes those kiddos just have not been provided the opportunity to work through something difficult. And there's a lot of confidence that comes through that. So I'd encourage every parent, like, trust your kid. Trust your kid. It's okay to be bored. It's great for brain development. There's a ton of research. It's great to be bored and even quiet. Yeah.
- [27:58]
A
And even if you don't provide your kid with a personal device in the home, one thing I've seen made a big difference is just don't let your kid have access to turn on the tv. Like just get the remote out of there. Like they can't go to it without being, without asking, getting permission. That's a big, like small shift you can make. That I think is I tell my
- [28:18]
B
kids the TV's broken today. Because I will say we do do very like, we follow the American Academy of Pediatrics. We follow their guidelines. But like my 4 year old at this point, like does probably watch probably 30 minutes of TV every other day, but we watch things and like there's a whole body of research on this too. High quality shows, like every educational show is not Educational screen change dynamic and there's just so much there. But like we watch shows from the 90s, like my son, his favorite show is Little Bear. You know what Little Bear is slower pace.
- [29:00]
A
I, I do remember.
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B
And we code you a lot. Like there's a ton of research on that to like sit and talk.
- [29:06]
A
Yes, great.
- [29:07]
B
Like, and if there's ever conflict, we pause and we, you know, again, in my best parenting days, we'll sit, discuss what's happening. That's not always the case. Yeah, but just being intentional about how you use that technology, being intentional about making sure that you're not placating your child or pacifying your child with technology, I think that's the most important thing. Like I would ask parents because then it sets a precedence, you know, Then from the time your child, if they've always turned to technology to help self regulate or when they're bored, that's what they do. Or when mom or dad and I so understand this because I'm in it right now, but when I need to get something done here, I'm going to turn on the show or I'm going to do this or whatever. But then you get kids who, you know, in that critical sensitive period of 9 to 14, they don't have the ability to self regulate, you know, the mindless scrolling. And so it just sets a really dangerous precedent when you start it so early.
- [30:16]
A
Yeah. And this new study shows that kids will have, may have an increased dependence on digital devices. So tech addiction later on in life if you're giving it to them in those hard situations at home or out in the world.
- [30:30]
B
And so one thing that I always tell parents, like our parent teacher conferences in my classroom often become like a therapy session. Like I bounce things off them, they bounce things off me. Just I always have families that like I have wonderful, amazing children in my classroom. And so I'll say, okay, like what did you do so that I can copy you. One of the things that a parent said to me once who like in this child, I wish I could tell you she was the most lovely, amazing, articulate, mature, kind. Just everything that you would want. Just dream student. And her mom said to me, like, well, we pretend like it's the 80s. We just hang out together in the house. Like we're together all the time. Like there's no going to your room with like checking out. Like we hang out together all the time and they're con and like that really just kind of shifted my mindset of like, okay, if it were 1985 would my kid be able to do this? You know, and that. And when I think. When you think of, like, digital literacy and the way you want your kids to use technology in their home, it's like, you know, TV today is not the same TV that it was. And even the 90s, you know, think about, you know, sustained attention in the absence of rewards, which is what we want. You know, you had to sit through.
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A
Yes.
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B
You had to wait until noon on Saturday for your favorite show to come on. Now you can click a button and Netflix has whatever show lined up for hours on end. Very, very, very different. And I think we as parents need to collectively say, you know, this is different. We're dealing in uncharted waters here.
- [32:18]
A
Pausing here to remind you that the Bark phone and the Bark app can help you protect your child from online harms. Parents do not have to be in the dark thanks to the monitoring technology at Bark. With the Bark phone, you can manage who your child talks to, what they access. You can block certain websites, set screen time limits, and so much more. And as they grow, you can add more features and give them access to more apps or dial it back to give them a breather. And if you decide to give your child an Android or an iPhone, please consider the Bark parental monitoring app, which is a high tech parental monitoring technology that can also protect your child. Back to my conversation with the wonderful Jessica Moore. Yeah, I love the idea of acting like it's safe at home because the home you where home used to be the safe space space for your kids. They could get away from bullying. They would be safe, right? And now home, if your kid has a device, especially in their bedroom, like, that's the most unsafe space they could be. That's one thing I can't get away.
- [33:12]
B
A couple parents this past, well, not this past year, but within the past couple years, like, please get your kids phones out of their room. Like, they're so tired and like. And again, these are. There's no judgment with parents. These are like intentional, loving, wonderful people who I think is just without knowing any better, it's like, oh, you can have your phone, it's no big deal. And then it. And it becomes catastrophic. Like sleep deprivation is something that I actually do see with my older kids. So I teach our advanced math. So it's a lot of sixth grade curriculum, some seventh grade curriculum mixed in there. And I talk to kids constantly about that because they do have homework. We, you know, there's a lot of rigor in prepping for middle school, and it's like man, if you think you can do your math and multitask with a phone or you've got your iPad on or you're listening to a show, like get that stuff out of your room and attune to a task and we have. I oftentimes will show them the research. You can't multitask. And we humans grossly overestimate our ability to multitask. And it's funny to see research because you know, I even sometimes will be like, I, I can do that, it's fine. No, you can't. You do both things very poorly. And there's a ton of research on that.
- [34:40]
A
Yeah. I have an interview with Dr. Gloria Mark and she has a book called Attention Span that's really good about like.
- [34:46]
B
Yeah.
- [34:47]
A
The myth of having of multitasking.
- [34:51]
B
Because it's like I think. Yeah. And it's just such, it's so indicative of where our world is right now. My husband and I talk about this all the time. You know, we have two young kids and both of us after a long work day want to sit down and I like, I joke about doom scrolling but it's like I cannot give my two children the attentive, caring response that they need if I have my phone around. And I wish that I could, I wish that I could be that parent but I can't. Like I have to actively go plug my phone in elsewhere so that I can.
- [35:27]
A
Yeah.
- [35:27]
B
Be present.
- [35:29]
A
Yeah. We put it, we implemented a new rule where my husband and I put our phones in our bedroom so when the kids are home they shouldn't see us with the phones at all. And if they do, they call us out.
- [35:42]
B
That's so smart.
- [35:43]
A
That's.
- [35:44]
B
Yeah, I had actually and I. We try like we don't have a formal rule but which I especially like. So I'm a teacher, I'm at home with my kids all day. Something work related on my phone the other day I was checking my work email and I had it in quite some time and my two year old daughter came and smacked my phone out of my hand and was like, wanted my.
- [36:10]
A
Yeah.
- [36:10]
B
Really in like that. Okay. I got your sister. What do you mean?
- [36:15]
A
Yeah, I think that's, that's so lovely though that she did that. Rather than try to like grab it and use it, she's like, get it out of here.
- [36:23]
B
My kids who both are low tech, they don't have personal device. Like again we watch very intentional TV every once in a while or like a family just recently started a family movie night which Is really, really fun. Yeah, I love that they hate the movies that my husband and I check. But are choose. But we're working on it.
- [36:41]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [36:42]
B
But ironically, like my son who he just has a really intense temperament. He's. I shared that earlier but he's incredible. But he to this day will ask about my husband's old work iPad. We let him on a flight a very long time ago, like we're talking two years now. Do a painting bear. It was like, it's like a coloring sheet, but you can paint on an iPad. He brought me my husband's iPad that had been tucked away for in our office like I don't know, a week ago. And then just again yesterday saying like, I want this. Get it open for me. It's. So where I'm going with that is it's amazing to me. Like this low tech kid, it's so addictive. It is. So he still is asking about it and it just blows my mind and it's like that's scary to me especially
- [37:41]
A
for certain kids with certain temperaments. And that would be my son as well. And that's why it's a no for sure. Because that's all he wants to do all the time. And we have to. I will have to teach him when we start introducing some technology, whatever that looks like. He's only, he's turning seven this weekend, but I will have to teach him to manage tech because I don't want him to turn 18 and be like, woo hoo.
- [38:05]
B
Like that's the tricky part. I think for all parents, this weird climate that we're living in of like you don't want it, it's like sugar with kids. Like you don't want to deprive them so much that then it becomes this thing that's fascinating. And yeah, we're, we're working through that right now too. And I think that's when you start having the conversation with kids. Like, not that you do, but I think I even find my own self discrediting my kids, not giving them enough credit, saying, you know, he's only four, but he can hear that, you know, video games aren't great for your brain yet. You need to be a little bit older. That's a phrase that I always want to hand to parents. Is the phrase not yet, not yet with social media, not yet with whatever, not yet with a video game yet. It's not. Not always, not forever, but not yet. And here's why. It's not my decision. It's that there's Research that says this is bad for you, you know. Yeah.
- [39:08]
A
And I know a lot of, a lot of speakers in this space will or researchers will talk about that. It's for young kids. It's bad for your brain. It's bad for. I think there's something about understanding that it's bad for their brain that is understandable to them somehow.
- [39:22]
B
I, I would agree with that a thousand percent. And just saying or talking to like my folks year old about like uncomfortable because sometimes this is interesting too. He's a kid that gets very little TV and very low stimulating stimulation within that tv.
- [39:38]
A
Yeah.
- [39:39]
B
You know, we choose what we hope are high quality programs and he. Every once in a while we'll fly off the handle when it's time. Like we do the countdown, we do a five minute timer, we do a two minute timer. I'm doing the inflection in my voice. Everything that the research would say to do and he, I let him turn it off. And he still, you know, probably once every five times we'll have a complete and total meltdown. And I'll say, yeah, once everything's. Once he's out of it and we can talk about it, I'll say, honey, do you know that icky feeling? Yeah, that's normal. That's hard sometimes. That's why we have to be really careful about how much we're using this. And I think like, especially like parents of preteens, like my sixth graders, they're such cool kids. Like they're cool people. You can have conversation with them. I think so often that's such a tricky time of life because they feel like they're on this precipice of becoming an adult. They feel, you know, especially some of the stuff some of them are exposed to, like they have real world knowledge. And just to be able to say like straight up, like that is bad for you. You should not be on TikTok because you are at a social. You are at a critical period of brain development and you are going to unconsciously compare yourself to every person you come across. And that's like, you know, we talk about, like I do with my sixth graders, like influencers, like who are the people you admire? Like, okay, the social media influence. Why do you like her? What qualities does she have that you like? Is she empathetic? Is she compassionate or is she just pretty? What do you like about her? You know, and so having frank conversations. Is she, she, is she, you know, or even like within, you know, you have to be really careful. But is this person Popular or are they powerful? Are they popular for the right reasons? You know, having those frank conversations with kids in an age appropriate way, it empowers them too, to say, if you feel like crap after you get off TikTok or Instagram, there's a reason for it. I tell the sixth graders in sixth grade boot camp, I say, you don't stand. Like, if you feel like, you know, there's a ton of research on boys when they are gaming, when they're playing Fortnite or World of Warcraft or whatever they're playing, when they are, when their parents make them get off. I'll sit down. Do you ever argue with your mom? You ever yell at your dad? It's because your testosterone levels are through the roof and you, like, that is a totally normal neurological response. Your central nervous system is in fight or flight and you're. You're going to act aggressively. That's normal. Like, you stand a chance against a room full of neuroscientists who have developed that game to have that, that response from you. You don't stand a chance. So just be aware of it. And I've had kids come back and say, like, oh my gosh, you're right. My mom told me to turn it off and I got mad at her. And it's like, it's. There's this really conversation to have and say, see, like, you know, you know, like, be smarter than the man.
- [42:57]
A
How fascinating. These conversations with sixth graders are awesome.
- [43:01]
B
They're such, like, that's such a fun age. Like, and I tell parents, like, don't be intimidated by your kids. Like, don't. And what I mean by that is, like, I think I feel like that age group gets such like, a bad rap of like, oh, middle schooler. No, they're phenomenal. And they're. And they're so easily. Like, they want to do the right thing. They're so intrinsically good. And that's why I feel so protective of their mind and like, just their mental state. Like, no sixth grader is inherently hardwired for depression or anxiety. When I tell, When I have, like, sixth grade girls say, like, I feel so anxious, I'm so, like, okay, well, let's root through that. What's going on? And some kids, and some kids, they really are experiencing true, sincere anxiety. And it can be, yeah, I have to be careful what I say. But other, I don't want to say it's social contagion. But other kids, it's like, honey, you're not anxious. You're just Uncomfortable. That's normal. That's normal. That is not anxiety. That's not, not a diagnosis. That's just you being uncomfortable. What are some skills develop so that every time you have a math test, you don't melt down.
- [44:17]
A
Yeah. Are you noticing more anxiety symptoms in kids that are on phones more?
- [44:22]
B
Oh, God, yeah.
- [44:23]
A
Okay, yeah, we talked about that.
- [44:25]
B
I had. Oh, yeah. And I just. And again, no, like I said, like, that's no criticism of parents. That's no criticism of children. It's just the world we live in that, like, you know, the research is there. If you have a phone and you're a preteen girl, like, you're like, again, I'm staring at a statistics that said there's been 145% increase since 2010 in the percent of US teens who had a major depressive episode. And that's from the US National Survey on Drug Use and Health. Like, that's not some made up statistic. That's longitudinal research.
- [45:07]
A
And that's right when smartphones dropped. And right after was, you know, Instagram and the kids used Snapchat shortly after that. And so all of these numbers correlate.
- [45:17]
B
Makes me actually like, I, I don't know. And it blows my mind continually. Like, you have to listen to one episode of a parent that you've interviewed to be like, okay, I will never, over my dead body will my child ever have Snapchat. And it's amazing to me the kids, how hard kids will push for it. And that's why, like, I would equip every parent to say, like, have them listen to one of your episodes of a child who is over overdosed on fentanyl or thought that they. Or, you know, it's just, I think again, as parents and as educators, when we equip kids and say it's not me making this decision, listen to how problematic this is. Could be. There are no guards in place. I have to be your bumper here. I have to be your guardrail. Like, kids aren't stupid. You can show them that.
- [46:10]
A
Right. Snapchat is a confusing one for people to understand that it's harmful because it's so doctored up to look safe for kids, like a cartoon land. And so it's really attractive to kids because it's gamified and it's addictive and things disappear so no one will ever see.
- [46:29]
B
I'm saying to my friends, things I hit on really hard. Sixth grade prep, we can't call it boot camp anymore, but sixth grade prep, is that like, if you take a photo on a phone, it does not go away ever. It is somewhere. Well, and I would argue, I would ask adults like, do you know where your photos go if you delete them? Do you think they're deleted? Your text messages, do you think they're deleted? Do you know about the cloud? Do you know how any of that works? It's confusing to even the most well versed of us. And it's like, and, and again, like I would ask any parent of a child anywhere, is your child impulsive? Why are you going to hand them a device that has the potential to ruin their life based on a lack of impulse control? You know, I think.
- [47:17]
A
Which is totally normal for that age.
- [47:19]
B
Yeah. And I think, you know, you and I are the same age. I think, you know, you talk about a prefrontal cortex. It doesn't fully come online until 25 or 24. I think about some of the dumb things like that I did as a child or just things that I said. Like I think I talked to my kids in the class a lot about this. A lot. When I was in fifth and sixth grade. Like things that I said unintentionally or intentionally just to be mean or something stupid that was said verbally and it went away. And you can make a now on
- [47:52]
A
Snapchat says that it is supposed to be like a real conversation. You can say something and it goes away. We're not social media. We're like real life conversations. But we're missing the whole issue. Right.
- [48:04]
B
Lie. I tell kids all the time. And I was next to someone or my friend was on Snapchat. I give this scenario all the time. I would take my phone and take a picture right there. Now I have a lasting record. There you go.
- [48:18]
A
Right?
- [48:19]
B
That's right.
- [48:19]
A
It's as easy as that.
- [48:21]
B
Well, and like parents. Something I wish I could tell every parent too. I've had a lot of conversations in my classroom of kids bypass parent controls all day, every day. Google it once there's whole Reddit threads, there's whole. It's on Apple like the Apple forum, like how to bypass parental controls and even there's some really phenomenal ones out there. But your kids can bypass a lot of things that you think. Don't let that give you a false sense of security.
- [48:57]
A
Yeah. Especially on iPhones which were not built for kids. And you've mentioned gab phone and bark phone. And I just, I really like that we have new options. Those are only a year or two old now. So I think general society is just Realizing that we have another option. And it's been really hard, though, to infiltrate at times because everyone's such an Apple family and they want everything and
- [49:18]
B
Apple has parental control or even just for the sake of, like, consolidation of a phone bill. I know I've had. Yeah, yeah, I. I completely agree with you. I think I would tell parents, again, like, just. I think it has to be a greater conversation with our peers as parents, like, with your friends, kids, so they're not a social pariah. So they're not alone on a desert island feeling. I mean, teenhood is isolating enough in and of itself, and especially preteens and adolescents don't want to, you know, exclude them. And that's why I think having a greater conversation, like, be brave enough to share, like, books. Be brave enough to share your podcasts, too, if you're in this space at all. Like, we have to advocate. I've talked about, like, I would love to have, like, a parent meeting at our school and just say, like, the amount of problems that have come outside of school from cell phones based on a text conversation that happened on Saturday, and now we're in class on Monday, and now we're having the muddy through that, and it's like, I'm happy to do it, willing to do it, but that's not what I need to spend my time on as a teacher. The amount of social, emotional stuff that all of us are dealing with, like, that just makes teaching that much harder.
- [50:49]
A
Yeah.
- [50:50]
B
Yeah.
- [50:50]
A
We don't want teachers jobs to be harder. And that's, I think, definitely something I'm learning is teachers jobs are made a lot harder by just kids having phones, let alone being allowed to have them at school.
- [51:01]
B
School.
- [51:01]
A
I. Does your school have a band?
- [51:04]
B
We. Here's the thing. We have it in our parent teacher handbook. We're a charter. Phones have to be in a bag, turned off. And our kids are so incredibly. At least the kids in my class are incredibly respectful of that. And they know my stance. Like, it's like a running joke. Like, I have one little girl. She's like. I said to her, I said, you know what I'm gonna say? She goes, I know you hope that it falls out of my bag and gets run over. Yes, I do. And no there. I mean, every once in a while, I'll have a kid come up to me and say, hey, I don't know if I'm a busser or if I am a walker. Can I text my mom really quick? And I'll have them come up towards Me and turn their back to the class. And yet, you know, it's at the very end of the day, it's not disruptive at all. And I'm really, really grateful for that. But again, I can't control what goes on outside of school.
- [51:58]
A
Right.
- [51:58]
B
And that, and that's hard.
- [52:00]
A
I think you should do that session with parents. I think the parents would appreciate knowing that. I mean, some parents may get defensive, but that's just a normal reaction. Or say, not my kid.
- [52:10]
B
Well, and that's the tricky part of like, where I just would ask everybody to look at their own experience. Like, I, There is zero judgment, but I did so many stupid things as a kid and I thank God all the time, like, there's no lasting record of that. Or there's no. Or I didn't. You know, you think of like the risky situations that we've all put ourselves in, having we're, you know, in our 30s. It's like, man, what would that have looked like with a cell phone? What would that have looked like? Or just, again, they're just so dangerous. The Internet is such a scary, dangerous place. Yeah. And I, I heard someone articulate this really, really well. And it was what parents, prior to the cell phone, what parents had spent decades protecting their children from predators, strangers, extreme consumerism. That's something that I can speak on for days. People who want to harm your children, we keep them, you know, and the anxious generation makes a really, a really incredible case for this that we have over. Protected them outside of our home. But then we have them this, all of these scary things neatly wrapped up in a highly addictive device and say, here you go. I trust you. Use your best judgment like it's backwards. Yeah. And again, it doesn't have to be never. But let's get you through your adolescence. Let's get you through your most sensitive period, you know.
- [53:51]
A
Yeah. In a protected way. Because the social media companies are not protecting the kids.
- [53:57]
B
So they're doing the exact opposite. Right. They're harming, actively harming your children. And I would ask.
- [54:04]
A
Yeah.
- [54:04]
B
To like, examine your own as an adult. Examine your own social media. That was something that was really hard to reconcile for myself. I'm like, well, Facebook, how am I ever. I grew up in Washington and live in Alaska. How am I ever going to keep up with my friends? Well, you'll keep up with the ones you want to and you'll spend less time being distracted in your real world. You know, it's hard. We have to model the behavior. And I battle that Every single day in my own home. It's hard. Yeah.
- [54:33]
A
But if you move those relationships with your friends as an adult to text messaging and phone calls and, and FaceTimes, it's much more quality time with that person rather than some post on Instagram that's to hundreds of people that's not personalized to anybody. And then you're having these like face value interactions and we, I got away from that and young. Yes.
- [54:55]
B
Need. That's one thing when we have moved to this digital heavy childhood. That's one thing that also every time teacher I know talks about like kids are missing social cues because they aren't having that face to face time. The research in the anxious generation talks about that. About how catastrophic it's been for young kids to not have that face to face interaction. And we all like, anecdotally, we all know that like watch, watch any area like where preteens and adolescents and teens hang out, go to a restaurant and just watch people. It is bizarre to the amount of time that people should spend face to face connecting, you know, yeah, we, we are mammals. We are hardwired for that. And yeah, it's crazy to me and to see the research because you can see it with your own eyes like, oh, this is so bad for everyone. But then to see the research, it's like, oh, it's probably worse than we thought. Like this really is harming, this is harming young children. We're missing like again, I can only speak to what I observe in my own experience, but a lack of empathy, a lack of being able to. One of my favorite people in the world, she's a really phenomenal educator that I've been able to kind of train under. She always says like we have to teach kids to disagree without being disagreeable. And I feel like just the social media noise of like if you don't think like me, you're, you're, you know, dumb or stupid or. Yeah. Instead of like we've moved away from. We can respectfully disagree to. Now if you don't agree with me here, it's really interesting and it trickles. Watch any adult have a, have a fight on Facebook. Talk politics with someone who doesn't think like you. Wild.
- [56:56]
A
No thank you. Oh yeah. Empathy is a really interesting one and the lack of it in younger kids in there. Did you see the, the case where some middle schoolers were bullying teachers creating fake tick tock accounts in Pennsylvania? Yeah. So, so briefly if, if listeners didn't know about it. So middle schoolers in Pennsylvania created fake TikTok accounts as teachers and posted as the teachers. Just really like pedophilic content, homophobic content, racist content, horrible stuff. And, you know, we found out about it and it was like in the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, one of those. But what is your thoughts on that kind of behavior? Because I'm hearing it's happening more and more.
- [57:44]
B
It's terrifying. Personally, I. I think it's terrifying. Yeah, it is problematic for a multitude of different reasons, but I think kids who, you know, we are, we have to counteract a generation of keyboard warriors. You know, I talked. I have this conversation often. If you would not say it face to face, never, ever, ever say it online. And if you wouldn't do it in face to face. And some kids are lacking that empathy piece where they would do it in face to face. And then we have to circle back around and say, well, let's talk about empathy. Let's talk about being a compassionate individual. How do you want to treat people? Why are you okay with being abrasive or unkind and then kind of hit it from another area? But as an educator, that is scary. And it's scary there. I could go on forever. I have to be careful what I say. It is scary to live in a world where kids can say and do a lot of things. There's not a lot of professions. We live in such a litigious society that. And school districts, a lot of times are afraid of parents or what parents will do or say or the pushback, what parents are. You know, thankfully, at my school and in my district, like, I'm very thankful that we have such wonderful relationships with parents for the most part. But every once in a while, there's a sticky parent, that it's like, there has to be a level of respect there that I think that has just as a societal whole has been slowly eroded over time. You know, teachers. During COVID we were superheroes. And then everybody got back to school and it was like, well, you guys do more, more with less, you know, and it's. Yeah, that's. It's tricky. I would just. I would implore every parent to, like, be having conversations with your children about respect and not blind respect. You don't, you know, you have to challenge the man a little bit. But. Well, you know, I talk to kids all the time. Like, there are people that you are going to come in contact with. Like, if a police officer asks you, you to do something, it is dangerous for you not to comply at times. You know, if a teacher asks you to do something, you can very respectfully air your grievances, but you can't be aggressive or you shouldn't be. I mean you absolutely can be.
- [60:15]
A
Yeah.
- [60:16]
B
There's not a lot of pushback with that. But it also comes down to relationship. And that's what's so wonderful about having kids for three years is I love them and they love me for the most part part. So.
- [60:27]
A
Yeah. Oh, I'm so glad. I'm glad you haven't dealt with any of that. Sounds like.
- [60:32]
B
Well, I've had. Yeah, I should, I should add a hard parent one time that was really, really tricky and we just couldn't see eye to eye about ironically tech use and so. Okay. Yeah. And that was really, really hard because again, when you're dealing with multiple years of that. Yeah. One thing I wrote down that I just wanted to make sure that like parents. Yeah. I'm sure you've heard you read the Anxious generation. But in 2023, the US General Surgeon issued a public health advisory saying that social media poses, quote, a profound risk of harm to the mental health and well being of children and adolescents. That's our US General Surgeon. Like full stop. Let that thinking.
- [61:18]
A
Yeah, like I know. And nothing happened from there. That was 2023.
- [61:24]
B
That like again, I don't know any parent and in the world that would be like, you know what, you want to vape, Go ahead. Like I know it's bad for you. Like other kids are doing it here. This is going to have lasting repercussions
- [61:38]
A
like and again, addiction, addictive, lasting repercussions probably will make you have depression, anxiety symptoms, could make you suicidal. But your friends are on it. So I'm gonna.
- [61:50]
B
And I don't want you to be left out, so. And that's where I think we need to be having this collective conversation. Like figure out who your kid hangs out with and talk to their parents. Pass these books around, advocate for each other, make your home. You know, one of the biggest issues with technology, especially for young kids, is it displaces the healthy activities of childhood. So it should be little kids. Our kids age, my 2 and 4 year olds should be outside and they are a lot and it's not easy. But climbing trees, running, jumping, taking, experiencing risky behavior, mitigating risk, understanding how there's so much developmental research on that's what kids should be doing, not inside staring at a screen. For our adolescents and teens, they need face to face connection. They need real connection. They need connection with their family. I would ask every parent like what are you doing? And again, without sounding, that sounds really judgmental and I need to be careful how I phrase that. What is your, where's your intentionality to connect with your child? You know that your adolescent, your pre teen, your teen is at a one of two highly, highly sensitive, critical periods of brain development. They are attuned for connection. Do you want them connecting with you or some influencer that's going to drive up their consumerism and down their self worth? Drive down their self worth. Right. Like mom, it's moms we need. We need. Your preteen girl is not the enemy. Like they need you so desperately. They might act like they don't want to connect with you. They need your influence so badly. Dads. And like again, not to get too heavily into genders, but dads, your boys need you. Like we need those role models. Yeah.
- [63:43]
A
I think there was a study that showed that boys these days, teenage boys are spending 30 minutes a week face to face with their dads versus 20 hours a week on their devices.
- [63:53]
B
Yep. And that is problematic for so many ways. And you know, I think of, and no one wants to talk about this, but pornography for young boys and what your children, that's one thing that I don't talk about that obviously at school because that's, that's really muddy waters I would never want to get into. But I want to tell every parent, like there's a good chance your 13 year old has seen porn. There's statistically they have. Whether it's on the bus, whether it's on their phone, whether it's on their buddy's phone. You have to be having those conversations with your kids. If you see this, come talk to me, we'll talk about it. It's weird, I know, but I want you to understand that like there's research that it hijacks their sexual template. And pornography is problematic for so many ways which we know it's violent. It often depicts a power. I'm not gonna articulate that well. But it does not present how we hope our children would have their first sexual experience. It is not the loving, consensual thing that we hope.
- [65:09]
A
No, no, kids are seeing, they're not seeing like vanilla, you know, romantic sexual experiences.
- [65:19]
B
And that's where like when I read that the first time my stomach fell from my throat or my just. It was like. Because I, when I read that statistically, like I think the average age now, and it's hard because it's self reporting, but like, isn't it like.
- [65:33]
A
Yeah, yeah, it's 10 self reported.
- [65:36]
B
Yeah.
- [65:37]
A
And that, that interview, I feel like you may have listened to it with Kristin Jensen of Defend Young Minds. That is such a good one about kids and porn and it's called Kids in Porn.
- [65:50]
B
Like every parent, good pictures, bad pictures. It talks about age appropriate conversations with your kids. But that's something as a teacher I don't want to be doing. And I think that as like, as parents, it's like that's why we need a village. And it's like we have to be brave enough to have those honest conversations. Or like if your young son is on Instagram, his for you page is going to be full of things you do not want him to see with unrealistic body image. And his brain is attuned to hardwire to that is what it. Yeah. It's just so important that we have eyes on what our kids are seeing. And young girls too. I mean I say all the time to girls, I'm like, no one looks like that in real life. No one looks like what you're seeing. And like our age, we saw it in magazines. Like I subscribed the magazines I would get and I would compare myself. But it wasn't an endless dream of social comparison.
- [66:57]
A
Yeah, yeah, right.
- [66:59]
B
And it's like that's why we have to be having these conversations with our kids. Like it can't. Yeah, you have to share the information.
- [67:07]
A
Your insight is so helpful and I feel like we could talk for two hours minimum. Tell me, is there any thoughts like to start to close out? Is there any thoughts around what else parents should know? I feel like there's been so much
- [67:21]
B
that you've shared rambling and I'm like getting emotional and I apologize for that. But I just like the biggest thing I would say to like, let's start, let's. Yeah, let's start from young kids up to adolescents. You're young kids. Like I have a 2 and a 4 year old. I understand what it's like to be in the throes of being bombarded with like, oh, download this app and your kid will learn their ABCs. Your kid's uncomfortable turn on miss, you know, whatever show you need to get something done. I would encourage you to as much as possible, when you as a parent are doing the laundry, when you're cooking dinner, either include your kid in that task because they want to hang out with you, they want to do those tasks. It is not easy and I am not a huge fan of it myself, but allow your kids to be bored oftentimes. All it takes is self starting that play or helping them to start their play and then they'll like my two year old is not as good as independent play as her brother is, but I'll play with her for 30 seconds, get her engrossed in something and then she's raring to go. So build those opportunities for your kids to experience that uncomfortableness and start to practice that self regulation of being bored, of having to sit through uncomfortable feelings, not using technology to pacify and then as your kids get older, delay, delay, delay, delay, delay, delay, delay, delay. Dear Lord Jesus, please God delay smartphone uses as much as you can and the argument of well my kid needs a phone because I'm divorced, I have to be able to get a hold of them. Look into a bark phone or a gab phone, a safe phone. I have a kiddo in my classroom who has a gab watch and it's the coolest thing.
- [69:07]
A
Oh good.
- [69:07]
B
Yeah, yeah, like it blesses me. And she's such a little angel with it. Like she'll, she knows it's technology and she's like I know I shouldn't have this right now and she'll leave it on my desk. It's like honey, you're fine. Look into those alternatives. Have conversations with your older kids about why you're delaying use. Don't just draw a hard line and not fill them in on why kids deserve. Kids deserve to know this research. They deserve to know that they are the product they are being like this is catastrophic for them and we need to be communicating that as much as possible. And then finally, I want to encourage parents who if your kid does have a smartphone like in the cat's. The cat's out of the bag. Yeah, you can walk it back, you can walk it back. Love that you are not powerless. Your children, your relationship. Be brave enough to say I love you so much. I read this new book. I want to share some of the things. How can we work to walk back your tech use together? I don't want to be a hard line. I want to conn connect with you. I want to be your person. But I can't let social media influence you more than our family does. How can we work together to find either limits on tech use or how do you feel about going to a Gap phone? How can we work together as a family and not using it as something to do this, to hit heads, but to come alongside your child and say I love you, I want to support you. I might have made a mistake giving you a Phone. How can we work together? What are your thoughts?
- [70:49]
A
Yeah, and there might be a period of weaning them off of it because it is an addiction, but they'll get through that. And I've talked with like neuroscientists about that, about this. Like, they'll know when they start feeling better and actually less tech use.
- [71:03]
B
They'll feel better, I think so often, like, we as parents, like, forget that, like, our kids need us, they want us, they. Even if we, they fight us. And like, oh, you're the worst parent ever. I hate you for taking away YouTube. This is YouTube is so problematic. I didn't even touch on that. But yeah, agree. Yeah, you're such a bad parent. Like, you're doing it for the benefit of them. You. Like if I always say, like, if we gave our kids nothing but junk food forever, and then all of a sudden realize like, oh, I can't in good conscience keep giving you junk food and never let you have a healthy meal, like, you would never just be like, oh, my kid only eats cookies, sorry. Like, you would walk a back tech. This is the same thing. Like the data. I would argue that the data probably would say it's more catastrophic. And then finally, the last thing I'll say before you and I end is like, be brave enough to have these conversations with your adult peers and the research. Like, if you come, you again. I always worry about. Because my kids are young and it's really easy for me to say because I'm not in the thick of it yet. Like, I find myself hesitating to share things. And I think if we honestly come at it with like, love and empathy for each other as parents and like, as a collected village of like, we all love these kids together, how can we best help them? How can we best serve them? We want them to grow up into, you know, self assured, mentally healthy adults that are competent and well placed in the world and are. And what we do now will. Will affect that ultimate adult that we send out into the world. And just being brave enough to have those conversations, even though they're hard and they're counterintuitive to societal pressures, I find myself, like, my husband probably thinks I'm psycho because I talk to him about this a lot. And being brave enough to start being brave enough, you know, passing books on, passing research on, sharing it on your own social media, being intentional about that, I think we can change things. I have hope that we can change things. Because as much as I have optimism for the future, I don't think Things are going to change in the big tech. I don't think the government's going to do much, unfortunately.
- [73:34]
A
Yeah, yeah. And it's hard, but it is going to take parents. I think I feel still hopeful about legislation if we can get enough parents on board.
- [73:46]
B
I should say. I just, just
- [73:49]
A
I.
- [73:50]
B
Every time I get my hopes up that I'm like, ah, there's this piece that. You know it. Yeah, I know, great. But yeah, I'm with you.
- [73:57]
A
No, yeah. And I think maybe because I've only been in this space for like 9, 10, 11, 10 months, but I feel like I'm starting to realize the disappointment already of like, oh crap, I thought
- [74:09]
B
this was good to go. I think, I think my statement was pretty cynical. Yeah, I again, I just, I would refer and defer to the experts here and every expert is saying this is, this is harmful. This. I mean our U. S. General surgeon and I can't even believe that that didn't make national news. That was not, There was not a bulletin sent out in every, you know, like, oh, you have a child in the U.S. here you go. Like this, like the, the warnings we get on our phones. Like the tsunami warnings in Alaska. Like, yeah, like big tech warnings.
- [74:48]
A
Some kind of separation. I mean, some kind of block there. Because I did, I mean, reported on that and I was like, this is huge.
- [74:55]
B
And just like nothing.
- [74:57]
A
It didn't.
- [74:58]
B
Well, when I read. Yeah. I had to stop and like, I'm like, I'm sorry. Am I just tired or did I just read that? And then how have I, you know, I work with. I am with 12 year olds all day. How.
- [75:11]
A
Yeah, your school, like school should have told all the teachers and the parents and sent out an alert about this. Like that would have been the trigger, you'd think.
- [75:18]
B
Here's what I think about schools and school districts and I know our time is going long and I apologize. I'll be done soon after this. I think it's like triage in school districts around the world right now. Around the US it is. Teaching is so hard. We as teachers are expected to be a behavioral counselor, a psychologist, a parent, in a lot of cases, an educator. The jobs that teachers do and administrators do. This is such a big piece that I think it's like we're all just, we're desperately trying to stay above water right now in so many ways that this is one more thing that it's like, okay, we know the research, like everybody implement it how you wish in your own classroom, you know?
- [76:07]
A
Yeah, yeah. And I, that is something through this series to close out that I think that I want to make parents understand is how hard the teachers have it, and that we just need to get on the same page, and we can look at the research, and we can look at the stats and the stories and make the same conclusions, and then all make decisions to better the kids in class and at home and their further development. So I appreciate you taking the time to educate parents and just share stories, because you have such a wonderful perspective and experience with kids that are at very influential ages, and that the decisions that we make in the home can really make a big difference. And hand in hand with teachers, we can make a big difference together. So thank you.
- [76:54]
B
Yeah. Thank you for the work that you do. Thank you for everything. And take care of.