![[THE VERDICT] The Heat is On...Big Tech on Trial — Scrolling 2 Death cover](/_next/image?url=https%3A%2F%2Fd3t3ozftmdmh3i.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2Fpodcast_uploaded_episode%2F39685433%2F39685433-1774661758973-11440b7fe68ce.jpg&w=1920&q=75)
Loading summary
Transcript130 lines
- [00:01]
A
We're going to read them the verdict form and the final decisions. Meta. Was Meta negligent in design or operation of Instagram? Yes. Was Meta's negligence a substantial factor in causing harm to Kaylee? Yes. Did Meta know the designer operation of Instagram was dangerous when used by a minor? Yes.
- [00:20]
B
Did Meta know that users would not realize the danger? Yes. Did Meta fail to adequately warn of the danger?
- [00:28]
A
Yes. Would a reasonable platform designer or operator have warned, warned of the danger or instructed on safe use? Yes.
- [00:35]
B
Was Meta's failure to warn a substantial factor in causing harm to Kaylee? Yes.
- [00:41]
A
I can't believe it.
- [00:42]
B
Oh my God. Keeps going. You were in disbelief.
- [00:46]
A
YouTube.
- [00:47]
B
Was YouTube negligent in the design or operation of YouTube? Yes. Was YouTube's negligence a substantial factor in causing harm to kaylee? Yes. Did YouTube know that the design operation of YouTube was dangerous and when used by a Miner?
- [01:02]
A
Yes.
- [01:03]
B
Did YouTube know that users would not realize the danger?
- [01:06]
A
Yes. They knew it was dangerous and they did it anyways. We knew that and now everybody knows that. Did YouTube fail to adequately warn of the danger? Yes. Would a reasonable platform designer or operator have warned of the danger or instructed on safe use? Yes. Was YouTube's failure to warn of substantial factor in causing harm to Kaylee?
- [01:30]
B
Yes.
- [01:33]
A
This is the Heat is on. Big Tech on trial, a scrolling to death series in partnership with Heat Initiative.
- [01:39]
B
Thousands of families, school districts and dozens of U.S. states have brought consolidated lawsuits against TikTok, YouTube, Meta and Snapchat alleging that their platforms were deliberately designed to addict and harm children.
- [01:53]
A
These are the tobacco trials of our generation. The first case was about 20 year old Kaylee. Four of the most powerful companies in the world versus a child like yours and mine.
- [02:04]
B
Did social media play a role in Kaley's anxiety, depression and suicidal thoughts? Or was it genetic, a result of her environment?
- [02:12]
A
The attorneys have battled it out and on March 25, 2026, the jury made a decision.
- [02:17]
B
We've been inside the courtroom watching this go down, translating all of this into something that matters for parents everywhere. Because this trial and the ones following have implications for us all.
- [02:28]
A
I'm Nikki Petrosi.
- [02:29]
B
And I'm Sarah Gardner.
- [02:30]
A
This is the Heat is On Big Tech on trial week eight Recap the verdict. We are going to tell you what happened leading up to the verdict, break down the jury's decisions and tell you what's next for the movement. Today we're joined by attorney Laura Marquez Garrett of the Social Media Victims Law Center. We also have appearances by youth advocate Lennon Torres and parent survivors Amy Neville, Juliana, Arnold and Lori. Shot. Today is March 26th is when we're recording. And it was just yesterday that we got this verdict. How are we feeling? Like, one day out.
- [03:11]
B
I mean, I don't know about you. I'm still in disbelief. It's just so, like, too good to be true in many ways. And I'm still digesting what went down yesterday. Especially, like, watching the parents have their moment. I. I think it's still sinking in. How are you feeling?
- [03:28]
A
What happened, I could have never imagined. And I didn't let my mind really go there leading up to it. So the fact that that happened, I think I was extremely unprepared. It's still settling in and sinking in. And I currently am still feeling like I'm in a fog because I flew directly to Boston. You flew to San Francisco right after the verdict. And we are taking a breath now to process. Oh, I want to get to the verdict. But first, there was a lot leading up to it that I think is super interesting. So let's go back to Monday, March 16th. Now, we were happy to even get to this day because it was the second day of deliberations, and we kept being told that if there was a quick verdict, it would be in the favor of the defendants. Meta and YouTube. So we were happy to get to that day. And there was two questions from the jury that day. The first was, are the expert reports in evidence? Which is a no, because the testimony the experts give is in evidence, but not their full reports. The second question was, are they supposed to give more credit to the deposition versus live testimony? Which I thought was really interesting because there was some discrepancies between some of the depositions that experts had done, like a year ago and the things that they were saying in their testimony in court. And the judge instructed them, the jurors, to give equal weight to those two statements. The next day was Tuesday, March 17, and we were really happy to even get to this day. Now we were thinking, the jury is giving this the time that it deserves. They must really be considering these questions this entire time. We had parent survivors in person waiting for the verdict with us. And so that morning on this Tuesday, I was able to connect with two of the parent survivors outside the courtroom. So we're going to hear from Lori Schott and Juliana Arnold.
- [05:15]
C
I think we're feeling hopeful that we've gotten to this day and they're still deliberating, which means they're really taking into account all the issues, which we think is a good sign but we don't know. We're going to be here, though, and we're going to wait until this jury comes up with a verdict, and we'll
- [05:32]
A
keep on coming back.
- [05:33]
C
But either way, I think that this trial has been a huge success for all the. All the internal information that's been exposed. It'll never be the same. The cat's out of the bag, and now it's time for our legislators to start taking that into account and passing some real legislation to keep kids safe online. We're here for our babies and all of your babies.
- [05:55]
A
We did get three questions that day from the jurors. The first question was related to Ian McMeans, who is a current YouTube employee. The jurors wanted to read back or have read back to them. The conversation between him and Mark Lanier related to, like, who deleted Kaylee's data before 2020? Because, remember, somehow it got deleted and YouTube was blaming Kaylee. And then it turns out that YouTube actually deletes Watch history after it reaches a point of 80,000 videos. And Kayleigh was way above that number. So it was just a crazy moment to be like, no, wait, you deleted it. YouTube, you did it.
- [06:32]
B
And Lanier's team figured that out, right?
- [06:35]
A
Yeah, it was in real time. And it was crazy that YouTube didn't anticipate that, apparently.
- [06:41]
B
Yeah. And also, I just sort of feel like zooming out for a moment. By Tuesday, getting the three questions, there was definitely a feeling of like, okay, this is hopefully progressing somewhere. Right. Like, it versus getting no questions at all.
- [06:56]
A
Yes. Because if they were to answer on the verdict form. No, they. No, no, they don't move on. So it would have, like, just the fact that they're deep into the evidence now and on YouTube. Because everyone was sort of guessing that Meta's case was stronger, even though I sort of disagree. But everyone was like, it's a shoe in for Meta, but maybe not for YouTube. So the fact that they were digging into the YouTube evidence was a great sign. Second question was a request for audio that was played during Meta's closing argument. And this was when Kaylee was getting interviewed by Meta's hired medical expert, Dr. Sonia Krishna. And where Kaylee says that her dad makes her depressed because he's not in her life. And very. I. I really cued in on this moment where Kaylee was asked when that started, and she said, around 2015. And I was like, 2015? She was 10. She was already on YouTube for years and Instagram for a year. And so with Meta and YouTube's, argument being like, her dad caused her problems. Well, here's Kayleigh saying that she didn't feel that way until after she started using social media. So I really loved that. That moment of getting to play that back for the jury.
- [08:03]
B
Well, and also, as you've educated us too, all of this was about demonstrating that Meta and you two played a significant role in the harm. Not that they're the only reason, which for me, just, like, changed everything because it was a major factor in it, but not. You don't have to prove without a doubt that it was the only factor.
- [08:26]
A
Exactly. And obviously, if someone's dad is not in their life, that's gonna affect them in some ways and make them feel sad and potential depressed. And no one's saying that's untrue. We're saying that social media played a role as well. Question number three on this Tuesday was requesting the testimony between Mark Lanier, Kaylee's attorney, and Meta's medical expert, Dr. Krishna, in regards to her professional integrity. And they stated being the only doctor stating social media was not a contributing factor to KGM's mental health, which was a great statement to read that the jurors realized every other mental health expert involved in this, even Kaylee's own treaters when she was younger, did acknowledge that social media played some sort of role in her mental health issues.
- [09:13]
B
That must have been very, like a very exciting moment.
- [09:16]
A
Yes. And Meta did not want to have this read back to the jury. They tried to argue and get the judge to not have it read back, and the judge denied that. Obviously, like, if the testimony is there, then it needs to be read back to them if they request it. This is where we started to realize this could take a while. And Mark Lanier touched on that outside the courthouse on Tuesday evening, early evening.
- [09:39]
C
We're hitting the meat of the bell curve. The problem, you know, if Kaylee's going to lose and the defendants are going to win, that's a quick and easy no. And if you answer no to 2, basically two different sets of questions, it's over. If Kaylee's going to win, they've got
- [09:58]
B
to answer a whole lot more questions.
- [10:00]
C
They've got to figure out money, and they've got to figure out a lot of things that take time. So the longer it takes is generally the better. But this is a world of anybody's guess. And so it might be that they're still on those first two questions. They're just deadlock.
- [10:18]
A
Six.
- [10:18]
C
Six. It takes nine people to vote to move to the next question.
- [10:23]
A
So now we're at Wednesday, March 18, and we were starting to feel like we'd like this to happen. Just the people sitting around the courthouse. Mark Lanier pulled me aside one day and it was like, start paying attention to the jurors wardrobes because on the day when they anticipate giving a verdict, they'll start to like, dress up a little bit more. And so this I remember I put a note here that like, okay, no changes in wardrobe. I think we're still deliberating today.
- [10:48]
B
Have you had the of like with other big famous trials, knowing this process now about the question answer thing, that wouldn't everybody always have like a slight tip off to the direction it's going? I've been so confused by that.
- [11:01]
A
Anyway, yeah, the questions really did tell us a lot. But there was also a lot of guesswork in there. I mean they, at some point we just realized maybe they're just reviewing the evidence in the order it was presented. And it really doesn't mean anything except this is the order they're reviewing in. We were just happy we weren't getting called in there to be like, it's a no. We have a verdict and it's all no. So any questions were welcome. And this day, Wednesday, there was no questions. It was so quiet until about 3pm and this question was interesting. It was, is there evidence in regard to how often Instagram was used by kgm? So when we heard this question, people were thinking maybe the jurors were trying to divvy up responsibility because we knew very clearly how much she used YouTube per day. But we didn't have a clear answer on how much she used Instagram. And that could be a way for them to break apart the penalties of like 70%, 30%, which is what it ended up being. And so there was a lot of discussion about how to present this back to them because there wasn't a clear moment where that number was given. And so basically what happens is the plaintiff and defendant attorneys argue what they should be using for the read back and then the judge makes a decision. And so that all happened. Timestamps were chosen and a transcript read back took place that day. And the gist of what the jury heard is that Kaylee herself reported using Instagram for about six hours per day, seven days a week.
- [12:29]
B
I just have to add in that, like hearing from you, when the jury had a question would I'd get these like messages out of nowhere. All caps. Jurors have a question.
- [12:38]
A
It was the most exciting Thing, like, it was just such a highlight, because I'll tell you, then now we're at the next day, Thursday, March 19, and I wrote down longest day of my life, question mark, because there was no.
- [12:49]
B
You got depression after Thursday.
- [12:52]
A
Oh, my God. It started to go downhill for us in the court, in the courtroom hallways. We were like, oh, man. It was just very quiet. No questions, no verdict. Just them deliberating the entire day.
- [13:03]
B
I know it was really hard to do that, but also, it's such a moment of respect, the process.
- [13:08]
A
Right, Totally. And I'm so glad that they took that long, because look what happened. But in the moment, you're worried. And we were starting to worry about deadlock. We needed, on each question, nine needed to agree out of 12 in order to move to the next question. So now we're on Friday, March 20th. And it was another quiet day until after lunch when we received another question from the jury. I'm gonna read the question, then I want to know your reaction to it, because this was a big one. It's a little bit long. Here we go. For verdict form, compensatory damages and claim of punitive conduct. Does the entire group answer the verdict form irregardless of how individuals voted? Or do only individuals who answered yes to questions 2 and 7 on the verdict form for Meta or YouTube answer the questions of damages? What did you think when you heard
- [13:54]
B
that this is when all hell broke loose.
- [13:57]
A
Yeah. And it was on the damages board.
- [14:00]
B
It's happening. Yeah, exactly. We were. I mean, I was forced to be away, and I say that because, no offense to if my friends are listening, but I had to go on a trip that was planned many, many years ago. So I was away, and it was really hard to be away, especially that day, because when that question came through, it felt like, okay, something's gonna happen. I got in the car. I was immediately, like, racing back to the hotel to make sure I had WI fi, because I was literally expecting you to call me any minute and be, like, in tears either way.
- [14:33]
A
Right, right.
- [14:35]
B
But I. I think that is the point where the whole, like, are they going through the form or not? It did sort of change to, like, yes, they are. They are further down in the journey. Like, to go from that to nothing would be so weird.
- [14:52]
A
Yes.
- [14:52]
B
And then I also thought it was a really interesting question just because logically you would think that they wouldn't be able to. That that's where you get sort of cut off. But what is the actual answer?
- [15:03]
A
The answer is that everyone gets a Vote no matter what the question. Very interesting. And to be clear, if the jurors answered yes to questions two or seven on the verdict form, then they move to the damages form, which is the amount of money that Cayleigh gets awarded, and then the percentage of who pays what. And so the fact that they were on the damages form in this question means they answered yes to two and seven, means they had moved through the form. And it was so exciting to know that they were that far along and had not hit a no and then ended at that point. So we were super, super excited and ready to then hear a verdict, which we did not hear by the end of that day, which. Which was the excitement and then the lull again.
- [15:50]
B
You know, it really felt like having a baby. It felt like watching somebody go into labor. It was like, is it starting? And like, you see, like, oh, she's having contractions. And then it was like, oh, my
- [16:00]
A
God, you're so right. Right.
- [16:02]
B
That was the hospital run, where you, like, go in because you think it's starting, and they're like, no, lady, you gotta go. You gotta come back later. That was that moment.
- [16:11]
A
So many moments of that just happened
- [16:12]
B
to me with my third kid. They were like, not now, my friend. Go away.
- [16:16]
A
Bye, bye, bye. So now we're at Monday, March 23rd, again, a quiet day all the way through the morning until about 2pm when we got a very concerning question. The jury said, we, the jury, are having difficulty coming into a consensus with one defendant. Do you have any advice on how to move forward? Were you worried about that? Like, when you.
- [16:40]
B
Yes, very worried.
- [16:43]
A
I know. Because if they can't decide, there could be a mistrial and then the case has to start all over again.
- [16:50]
B
If they were deadlocked on YouTube, would that have prevented them from making a decision about Meta? Do we know that? We could ask two things. Yeah.
- [16:58]
A
So two things from two different attorneys. One was that they weren't sure because it is two different defendants. So can we just. Deadlock, misfire, Misfire, Mistrial on YouTube. Because we were assuming this was about YouTube. We don't know for sure that's true. And then move forward with meta. But at the. But Mark Lanier said something after court one day that that can happen, but that the law is not as clear as he would like. So there might have been an opportunity for meta fight that. So how the judge responded to this question about this deadlock situation was to read the jury the deadlock jury admonition. And I think this is super interesting. So I'LL read it quickly. She told the jury, you should reach a verdict if you reasonably can. You have spent time trying to reach a verdict, and this case is important to the parties so that they can move on with their lives. With this matter resolved, if you were unable to reach a verdict, the case will have to be tried before another jury selected in the same manner from the same community from which you were chosen to and at additional cost to everyone. Please carefully consider the opinions of all the jurors, including those with whom you disagree. Keep an open mind and feel free to change your opinion if you become convinced that it is wrong. You should not, however, surrender your beliefs concerning the truth and the weight of evidence. Each of you must decide the case for yourself and not merely go along with the conclusions of your fellow jurors.
- [18:16]
B
So did she actually read that to them out loud?
- [18:20]
A
Yes.
- [18:20]
B
Fascinating.
- [18:21]
A
Yeah. And the part about having to retry it at additional cost to everyone from the same community, I really was hopeful that that would put that pressure on them that they needed. So what was discouraging about this, though, is that Tuesday the 24th, they didn't reach a verdict and they didn't have a question. And so this was the longest day of my life. Like, this was like, we were so concerned about the deadlock. We were like, okay, if they were close before and having a disagreement then, now they've had, like, seven or eight more hours to discuss. Like, what the heck are they talking about in there?
- [18:58]
B
Respectfully.
- [18:59]
A
Respectfully. But, like, what? I just imagined them. I kept saying, I'm imagining them just arms crossed, like, staring at each other, like. Like, just, like, mad at each other. I'm sure they were talking, but, like, I was like, what else? You just go through all these crazy things.
- [19:12]
B
Very much flows with your personality of, like, bing, bam, boom. Get through this. Get through this. Let's move on.
- [19:18]
A
Make it happen. Yeah.
- [19:21]
B
Okay. We will probably find out about it in one of their books that will inevitably be written.
- [19:26]
A
Can't wait to read that. I will be able to tell you what's true and what's not in there. I'll be honest. Let's all be honest.
- [19:34]
B
There you will be. And honestly, you're probably the one person on earth that could do that.
- [19:39]
A
If there's ever a movie, I'm going to be. I need to be hired for, like, the. The consultant to get all. Because there's just so many little intricacies
- [19:47]
B
of who would play you in the movie?
- [19:49]
A
Oh, not me. I'm not in it.
- [19:51]
B
Play you. We have to figure out who would play you. We can do that later.
- [19:54]
A
Yeah, I don't have a thing about that. Like, there's not people. Someone, people say like, Kate Mara. Oh, that's cool.
- [20:02]
B
Great, great.
- [20:03]
A
Okay, thank you. Appreciate that.
- [20:04]
B
No problem.
- [20:05]
A
So now we got to Wednesday and I have to tell you, we had been playing this game of signs. Like, is the jury dressed up? They're acting this way. They're being really happy today. Like, is it happening? Is it happening? Is it happening? This morning the signs told us it was happening. Like the first juror to walk in had a big tray of pastries and a bouquet of sunflowers in her other arm. And we were like, that's interesting. And then another juror was walking through the hallway and took a picture of like the media instructions about the case on the wall. Like, oh, you only do that if it's like I'm about to leave and I want to like have some memories of. And so we were all like thinking, maybe it's happening. And then four of the jurors got there who dressed in aren't dressed up typically and somewhere like kind of sweatpants stuff. And so these jurors were, three or four of those were wearing white, crisp white button ups and black slacks. Like the same. I don't know if they coordinated their outfits. Honestly, I don't know because there's three of them that had never worn that before and that's what they were wearing. And we knew, we knew down to fashion. No, we knew it was happening. Like, I always thought it was happening at little things, but the, the nice like woman next to me who was with me the whole time, Shan Chan, she was like, I actually think it's happening now. I didn't know before, but like, I think you're right. The jurors started deliberating a little after 9, and by 9:32, the court staff comes out and says, we have a development, please line up. And we were like, what's a development? What do you mean? I mean we knew, but like, why can't you just say there's a verdict?
- [21:44]
B
But they must not really be. It must be an actual protocol to not say that.
- [21:49]
A
We were told that attorneys have to arrive and be in the courtroom before we can go in. And so now we start to see the attorneys arrive and we start to get some of those eyebrow raises and little smiles from the attorneys that told us like, this is actually happening. And were the meta attorneys smiling? No, no, no, no. Kaylee's attorney. Sorry, there's a lot of a lot of people on Kaylee's attorney team, and they were all looking real happy. At about 10, 10am we are in the courtroom and the judge says the jury has a verdict. She instructed us that we may not react to this verdict.
- [22:25]
B
Wow. Yeah, wow.
- [22:28]
A
She went into a lot of detail. No emotional reactions, no noises, no facial expressions. Expressions like she really wanted to make it clear that we were not allowed to react, which was hard.
- [22:37]
B
Did you see the parents come in? The survivor parents? Yes.
- [22:40]
A
So, most importantly, seven parent survivors were in the front row of the courtroom when the verdict was read.
- [22:49]
B
And they couldn't react.
- [22:50]
A
And they couldn't react. That I will. I will say they. We, none of us were perfect, you know, and I. As the verdict was read, there was some reactions, rightly so, and nothing out of hand, but it was a moment that we'll never forget.
- [23:08]
B
We were all literally physically running to the courthouse, like, sweating.
- [23:14]
A
I forgot that you weren't there yet
- [23:16]
B
and you were on the 101 in, like, bumper to bunk for traffic. About to get out of my car and just walk. I was over it. I was like, I need to be on Spring street now. Two of the other survivor parents, Laura Marquez, Garrett Lennon Torres, Shelby Knox, a few more of us, some of them were closer already, but we. They had to go. We weren't there, so everybody had to go. And. And then we got there and the. The press was out of control because in the end, they end up hearing weirdly kind of first, there is a verdict. Did you catch that?
- [23:54]
A
It's all of the media people I'm sitting with, right? They're reporting live out to the media, their cameramen and stuff that are outside just as I was. So basically, as the verdict is read, I have a Google Drive document up and I had preset the form in there with checkboxes, yes or no for each question. And so you guys are all gathered outside watching the document while I click yes, yes or no. In this case, all yeses. As I heard the verdict read, we
- [24:30]
B
go to pull up this Google Doc and because it's me and my devices, I have to update freaking everything to open this document.
- [24:36]
A
Yeah.
- [24:37]
B
So I'm like updating Google Drive app, like in real time. And Len is like saving my life, taking me off the WI Fi because now we're like down to the minutes. And so we open it and we sit down on the steps and we just like, really naturally got like really close together. And it was like watching like Casper the Ghost checking because we didn't know where you were, you know, and we would just, like, watch with anticipation. The media just came in around us to get the reaction. And I don't even remember seeing them or, like, feeling them, you know. Now looking back, there was, like, five gazillion photos taken right at that moment. And I don't remember any of that. I just remember all of us looking at that Google Doc like our lives depended on it. And honestly, like, not really believing it as it was happening, like, just couldn't take it in. And then it really started. It was Amy's reactions that kind of started to make it, like, more real. Amy Neville, just because she's been such a strong advocate on this for so long, and her and Mary, their reaction then made me feel like I could react because I was almost, like, waiting for them to go first and also to see how they reacted. Because part of this, although incredibly vindicating, is also, like, now they know for real that their kids could have had a different experience had people been more responsible. And I think that the knowledge of that, even though they've always known that just knowing it for sure is also, I'm sure, a lot to take in.
- [26:15]
A
Yeah. Validating in a way. Like, I was right. But also, if I'm right, that really means that these executives made choices that led to the death of my child. And how do you, like, hold that in reality when now knowing that it's true and now everybody knows that it's true. And there's also, like, the justice now feels like, okay, this was Kaylee's case, but what about me? Now that this has all been proven, like, what do I get now? And a lot of these parents have their own lawsuits against these companies that may or may not ever be tried. But the thing is that it's bigger than that. Now that we have the internal documents and this decision and these other decisions that have come out and more to come, we will have regulation, and we will have societal changes and everything that we need to progress the movement and have all the children be safe. I'm shocked.
- [27:10]
B
Like, the first feeling is shocked. Like, we have been out here talking about these things for the last few years and told we could never get to this point. We've proved everybody wrong. We are out here telling the truth, and the truth is many. It's about time, y'.
- [27:25]
A
All.
- [27:26]
B
That's how I feel right now. I feel like I want to jump
- [27:28]
A
up and down and just scream from the rooftops, like, thank goodness I lived this. Pl these platforms. I. You know, looking at, you know, what the jury was looking at and what
- [27:39]
B
they came to, we as a generation lived. And so to see that happen and
- [27:44]
A
to see that come to light and feel so validated by a jury of my fellow Americans is like, I just
- [27:53]
B
want to be like, I told you, I told you so, you know, like we were. It's. It's just so validating.
- [27:59]
A
It really is so validating. Now let's move into our section called Lawyers Said what where we're bringing in Laura Marquez Garrett to answer some of the more legal questions that you guys have.
- [28:15]
B
How will this trial affect the other trials to come in your mind? And also, is anyone personally liable at any of these companies from the outcome of this case specifically? I don't think so, but I wanted you to. I wanted you to tell us.
- [28:31]
C
I'll go backwards, which is, I believe in the earlier. Some of the earlier opinions, at least in the federal court, that Zuckerberg got sort of a pass for now, I don't. I think it was without prejudice. So, meaning at some point we could. We could revisit that. So I don't. There would not likely be any personal liability out of this. And then in terms of how it impacts. So this is, you all know, this being in this space, like, everything is connected. This is the. We are KGM behind me. Right? And so there is no direct impact, Right. There's no precedential, if you will, there's no. And we also can't predict if and when there will be a settlement. And now, again, these are not class actions. These are mass torts. Everyone stands alone. But there is no way to predict what Meta will do. And frankly, I. If I were to predict, I would say, again, they're making billions of dollars. Like, how much was this compared to how much they will make in 30 days? And this is. Okay, this was 60 days, right? So this trial takes 60 days. Six million. They make more than $6 million in 60 days. They make a lot more than $6 million in six days. So until we get that number, until we get the public pressure where their stock goes down, people stop using their product. If we can get that monetary hit high enough that Meta is now losing more than it's making, that's the impact, right? So this, this is not about the $6 million. This is about the fact that the world just saw two verdicts in two days. And hopefully that will have that ripple effect where people will say, well, I'm done. I'm done with Facebook, and no, my kids can't use Instagram. I don't care if a counselor or a teacher tells me it's okay for bonding. It's not. It's not. There's a great big warning sign that we're working on inking and sticking up next to these products that say, hey, this could cause addiction, anxiety, depression, self harm, suicidality. Don't do it or do it with your eyes open.
- [30:17]
A
Can you speak to what happens next? And a lot of people are asking like, okay, well, yeah, Kaylee's getting paid, but are they going to change their platforms? Like, what, what's next?
- [30:26]
C
In June, the school district case is starting. And everyone keep your eyes on that because that's going to have a whole nother corpus of evidence that we would not have, that would, we would not have been able to get in in this case due to relevance. And then you have the AG case in August in Oakland, the federal court, which is where the school district is. We have the next individual case here in July. We have, look, SMVLC is, is going to be filing a lot more cases and new types of cases. Again, it's not going to be any one case. So we're going to keep going case after case after case, theory after theory after theory. We are going to test it. You know, Matt Bergman teaches a course and it's like litigation, the art of warfare. And that is what he has been doing since day one. This whole thing has been a strategy of, okay, we go after them here and then once we get that sort of set up, we go after him here and then here and then here and then here and then here. Because all we got to do is find those, those holes in the armor and that's what we have to keep doing to these companies over and over.
- [31:28]
A
For moments that mattered. This week we already feel like went into that with the whole verdict moment. But I was hoping that you could describe the banner moment because I was, I had to leave so I didn't get to see that part.
- [31:39]
B
Some of the survivor parents led by Mary Rode made the most beautiful banner by hand over the weekend. So in between that Friday that we thought the verdict was coming and the Monday, just like a very high anxiety intense moment, they took the time to construct this 30, 40 foot banner with 351 names. Children who we've lost to various social media harms and the profoundness of holding that banner outside the courtroom the day we got this verdict is indescribable because again, this is truth, justice, accountability. These kids did not die just from an accident. There was bad choices that were made that led in part to their deaths. And now finally someone's gonna be held accountable. And so it was like we talked about this whole journey that the children who we've lost, the angels that we've lost, have been with us and have been in the courtroom with us the whole time. And so just to see their names outside of the courtroom and have the survivor parents hold the banner sort of for a moment of silence and honoring their memory was just incredible.
- [32:58]
A
The visual was. I was on a plane, but the visual was so amazing and it got picked up in different outlets and I know they were up to like 3am working on it multiple nights. And so the these parents just don't stop. They just fully don't stop. And they're not going to stop. They'll be in D.C. soon advocating and taking this verdict and making it into law. Like we need to be proactive now and so that we don't keep losing kids like theirs. We want to bring people in on what's next for the heat is on given that this trial is now done. And the next trial that we want to cover in detail is being tried in California federal court. And it's part of MDL is the legal phrase multi district litigation. And it's a different consolidated group of cases which includes thousands more families like Kaylee's, thousands of school districts and dozens of US states suing the same four companies, Meta, YouTube, TikTok and Snap. And so the first case that we want to cover, this one in Oakland in California federal court, is brought by Breathitt county schools from Jackson, Kentucky and will begin on June 15th and is expected to last about six weeks. And so we want to be there documenting this process in a very similar way that we did for this trial here in la.
- [34:26]
B
Yeah. And there's also a lot of other upcoming trials as well that we need to keep you apprised of. Folks saw. But the New Mexico case that also settled a day before ours was a huge case involving Meta knowingly allowing for child sexual exploitation to thrive on its platform. Something that has just been enraging for those of us paying attention to it for years. All of these cases build on each other and create the tide change that we want to see, which is that people no longer see these platforms as agnostic, as it being just the parents job to navigate this. This is us fighting against incredibly powerful companies who do not have our best interests at heart. And we are fighting back brick by
- [35:14]
A
brick, tooth and nail. Yeah, I think I want to also share that in addition to covering the lawsuits we're also going to be putting more active pressure on other companies who are also failing to protect children, like Roblox and like Snapchat, who was able to settle Kaylee's case ahead of time. And so I think you'll be seeing some opportunities there and also opportunities for parents like everyone listening to get involved in in person actions and virtual opportunities to put pressure as well.
- [35:48]
B
So listen, there's going to be a lot of ways to get involved because we need your voice in our movement in order to win. And that looks like sometimes helping us weigh in on legislation, like calling your local representatives or calling your senators, it will look like sharing information that we share and making sure that other parents see it. And it could also mean showing up in person. We have an incredible opportunity coming up at the beginning of summer, which is Social Media Victims Remembrance Day. It's June 23rd. It was founded by two moms who both lost their children on the same day, June 23, to different social media harms. And we use it as a day again to honor and remember those that we've lost, but also to demand action and change. And so we have a form up on our website where you can send us a little bit of information if you're interested or get information about what's going to happen, because we would love for you to join us. And this could very likely be a time when Congress is seriously considering legislation coming out of the trials and having sort of more momentum and pressure. So seriously consider joining us in D.C. this June to help us create the movement.
- [36:55]
A
And the forum has some questions about what might work best for you regarding what day of the week and different details. And so I'll include that form in the episode notes. And to start to close this out, I mean, we are so incredibly happy about this verdict. I hope we're all taking a moment to process it and celebrate it. But the fight is not over. And just like, you know, the fight against Big Tobacco, this is a journey that we have a template for. And actually the team at Heat and others have studied the arc of justice around other social movements like Big Tobacco. And so we know a lot because of the work that you guys have done, what we need to do to win, and we're actually doing it now, which is incredible. Yeah.
- [37:39]
B
And I would like to just say about tobacco. I was recently with someone who was one of the lead attorneys who fought Big Tobacco over decades and he reminded me that they lost their first 10 cases.
- [37:50]
A
Really?
- [37:51]
B
10? Yes, like their big first 10 cases. They were not successful Yes. I can't remember if it was like states or exactly who were the plaintiffs, but they. They. And we're up 2 0, right?
- [38:07]
A
That's incredible.
- [38:08]
B
Yes. I think that's a. That shows that the people are where we are. Like, the people already know it's bad, and now we are just giving them the evidence. Look, these last few weeks, I'll remember the rest of my life. I got a butterfly tattoo to commemorate it in honor of the. Because, you know, butterflies are the symbol of so many of the beautiful kids who we've lost. You've got yours on. You've got your necklace on. I know I don't have my p on right now. It's driving me crazy. So I had to show my tattoo. But, like, these moments leave an imprint on you. They don't leave you. I will never forget being at the courthouse yesterday when we heard the verdict. It will be one of the moments I truly remember the rest of my life. And I'm so grateful to everyone who played a part in it and made it happen.
- [38:54]
A
And that means everyone just listening or following along online, because I had hundreds of. And hundreds of messages from parents who were saying they were in tears. We're following along the moment by moment feed of what was happening in that courtroom. And so we're all literally in this together. And we are so grateful, Sarah and I, for everyone who has followed along but, like, given us their love and support, because we can really feel that. And the parent survivors and the advocates can all feel it because it's gonna take all of us to really make the changes that we need to see. And so everyone should join the email list. Make sure you're there, because we're going to be sending more opportunities, and we can't wait for what's to come.
- [39:36]
B
Stay engaged. Stay with us. We're going to win.
- [39:39]
A
We're already winning.