Amina AlTai: The 5 Childhood Wounds That Might Be Running Your Career (Without You Knowing It)

Summary

Self-Conscious with Chrissy Teigen Episode Summary: Amina AlTai: The 5 Childhood Wounds That Might Be Running Your Career (Without You Knowing It) Release Date: July 31, 2025

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Introduction to the Episode

In this insightful episode of Self-Conscious with Chrissy Teigen, host Chrissy Teigen engages in a profound conversation with Amina AlTai, author of the groundbreaking book The Ambition Trap. The discussion delves into the nuanced dynamics of ambition, distinguishing between destructive and healthy forms, and explores how childhood wounds can silently influence our career trajectories.

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Defining Ambition: Painful vs. Purposeful

[00:01] Chrissy Teigen: "Ambition is often seen as a good thing, a sign of drive, of purpose... But what happens when our ambition is actually hurting us?"

Amina AlTai introduces the core concept of her book by differentiating Painful Ambition from Purposeful Ambition:

• Painful Ambition: Driven by fear, trauma, people-pleasing, or the need to prove oneself. It often leads to burnout and a dysfunctional relationship with success.
• Purposeful Ambition: Rooted in alignment, healing, and a clear sense of personal values. It fosters healthy growth and fulfillment without self-sacrifice.

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Amina AlTai’s Personal Story and Origin of "The Ambition Trap"

[03:42] Amina AlTai: "I feel like my life was a walking ambition trap..."

Amina shares her personal journey, detailing how relentless ambition in her early career led to burnout and severe health issues, including two autoimmune diseases. This crisis was a catalyst for her transformation, prompting her to redefine ambition and seek a healthier path. Her "Eat Pray Love" year focused on mindfulness, coaching, and somatics, culminating in a renewed sense of self and the impetus to help others escape similar traps.

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The Five Core Wounds and Their Masks

[06:18] Amina AlTai: "There are five core wounds, and we all have them..."

Amina outlines the Five Core Wounds that shape our relationship with ambition, each accompanied by corresponding masks (coping mechanisms):

1. Rejection (Failure to be accepted): Masked by Avoidance – escaping discomfort.
2. Abandonment (Feeling discarded): Masked by Dependence – over-reliance on others.
3. Humiliation (Caregivers' shame): Masked by Masochism/Martyrdom – overworking to feel worthy.
4. Betrayal (Fractured trust): Masked by Control – needing to manage everything.
5. Injustice (Restraint of individuality): Masked by Rigidity – striving for perfection and blocking sensitivity.

[06:43] Chrissy Teigen: "Oh, yeah." [07:14] Amina AlTai: "Painful ambition is coming from the core, whereas purposeful ambition is coming from a place of wholeness, a place of truth."

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Chrissy Teigen's Personal Reflections on Ambition

[02:50] Chrissy Teigen: "I don't know if I would describe myself as ambitious. Yeah, is that weird?"

Chrissy reflects on her own experience with Comparison Ambition, feeling driven by her husband's success rather than intrinsic motivation. She expresses feelings of inadequacy and the pressure to "hustle," showcasing how societal expectations can distort personal ambition.

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The Aligned Leadership Framework

[12:14] Amina AlTai: "Inside the book, there's a five-part framework called the Aligned Leadership Framework..."

Amina introduces the Aligned Leadership Framework, a tool designed to evaluate opportunities to ensure they align with one's true self. The five components include:

1. Honor Your Gift: Engage in activities that tap into your unique strengths.
2. Values Aligned: Ensure opportunities align with personal values to reduce internal friction.
3. Connected to Impact: Align with what you want to contribute to family, community, or the greater good.
4. Sense of Contentment: Foster inner peace and satisfaction.
5. Meet Your Needs: Ensure your basic and emotional needs are satisfied.

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Emotional Regulation and Physical Awareness

[26:48] Amina AlTai: "I think it feels like a regulated nervous system..."

Amina discusses the importance of a regulated nervous system in achieving purposeful ambition. She explains how emotional regulation can prevent burnout and promote sustainable success. Techniques include:

• Physical Awareness: Recognizing bodily indicators of stress, such as shoulder tension or tongue positioning.
• Mindfulness Practices: Developing present-moment awareness to maintain calm and focus.

[28:05] Amina AlTai: "The body has certain tells... our tongue is at the top indicates rest and digest, and towards the bottom indicates fight or flight."

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Practical Exercise on Core Wounds

[31:09] Amina AlTai: "We're going to do an exercise on the core wounds..."

Amina guides Chrissy through an introspective exercise to identify which core wounds are influencing her ambition. They explore:

1. Rejection
2. Abandonment
3. Humiliation
4. Betrayal
5. Injustice

Chrissy identifies Abandonment and Injustice as the most resonant, leading to deeper self-awareness and commitment to self-compassion:

[36:22] Chrissy Teigen: "I promise myself that I will accept opportunities where I get to feel fulfilled and happy and joyful and creative and speak my mind..."

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Conclusion and Key Takeaways

The episode culminates with Amina emphasizing that ambition is a universal, neutral trait that can be harnessed positively when aligned with one's true self. Key takeaways include:

• Redefine Ambition: Shift from a fear-driven pursuit to a value-aligned, purposeful journey.
• Heal Core Wounds: Recognize and address childhood wounds that distort ambition.
• Use Frameworks: Apply tools like the Aligned Leadership Framework to evaluate opportunities.
• Emotional Regulation: Maintain a balanced nervous system to sustain healthy ambition.
• Celebrate Individual Genius: Embrace and express unique strengths without fear of judgment.

[30:01] Amina AlTai: "Everybody deserves their dreams. Everybody deserves to allow themselves to unfold and let their gifts speak."

Chrissy expresses deep gratitude for the conversation, acknowledging the transformative insights shared by Amina.

[37:28] Chrissy Teigen: "Amina, thank you so much for today. That was exceptional... your book is so beautiful and thank you so much for being here."

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Notable Quotes

• Amina AlTai:

  • "Ambition is neutral and natural. We all have a right to it." [03:42]
  • "You are enough." [10:25]
  • "Everybody deserves their dreams." [30:01]

• Chrissy Teigen:

  • "I don't know if I made the right decision." [13:47]
  • "I miss that part about myself." [18:06]

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Self-Conscious with Chrissy Teigen offers a compassionate and comprehensive exploration of ambition's underlying psychological factors. Amina AlTai's expertise provides listeners with practical tools and profound insights to redefine and reclaim their ambition, fostering a path toward healthier, happier, and more fulfilling lives.

Transcript

[Chrissy Teigen]

Hey, it's Chrissy. Feeling today's conversation. Dig deeper with today's guest and hear more from all our groundbreaking guests on Audible. From bestsellers and new releases to podcasts and Audible Originals, discover the next step on your journey. Go to audible.com chrissyonaudible you're listening to Self Conscious with Chrissy Teigen, an Audible original podcast. Join me as we explore the cutting edge of health, wellness and personal growth with the world's leading experts and thinkers. From inspiring stories to actionable insights, our conversations aim to help you lead a healthier, happier and more productive life. Ambition is often seen as a good thing, a sign of drive, of purpose, of wanting more. But what happens when our ambition is actually hurting us? That's the question at the heart of the Ambition Trap, a new book by executive coach and author Amena Eltai. In it, she makes a powerful distinction between two kinds of painful ambition, which is driven by fear, trauma, people pleasing or the need to prove yourself, and purposeful ambition, which is rooted in alignment, healing and a clear sense of what actually matters to you. On today's episode, we're talking to Aminah about how we break out of the Ambition Trap and what it means to reimagine success on your own terms. Amina Altay, welcome to Self Conscious. Thank you so much Amina for joining us today. This is nice not to have something so incredibly heavy, but still touches on our roots and our childhoods a little bit. So we're talking today about ambition.

[Amina Altai]

We are.

[Chrissy Teigen]

It's such a hot topic nowadays because On Instagram, on TikTok, we are constantly push content about hustle, culture and high value men and what it takes to be the best and to be at their level and what they do and they wake up at 4 or they have a 12 hour day and this is how to be successful. This is what you need in your life. And if you're not hustling, if you're not grinding, if you're not thinking of money, and if you're not pushing yourself, then you're doing it all wrong. I love your book so much because I realized that I think my type of ambition might be something called comparison ambition. I have a husband that's very successful and really good at what he does and he's so smart and so well spoken and works really, really hard and I don't necessarily think I would be doing all the things I'm doing if he weren't that kind of person. I don't know if I would describe myself as ambitious. Yeah, is that weird?

[Amina Altai]

No. I love this conversation. So as I was writing the book, I was having conversations with women across the country and historically excluded people across the country. And people would fall into two camps. They would say, either I'm wildly ambitious, or they would say, actually, I completely reject that term because what I have seen has been so dysfunct. But actually, I think we're all innately ambitious. I think ambition is neutral and natural. And I wanted to redefine it in the book. And I redefine it as simply as a desire to unfold, a desire for more life. And if you think about it, every living thing on the planet has a desire for more life. But what we've been shown in the world is that ambition is more for more's sake all the time, and you have to hurt yourself for it. And so that's the conversation I wanted to flip the script on, because I think ambition actually needs to look really different. And we all have it.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Aminah, unpack the ambition trap for us. Why was it important for you to write about now?

[Amina Altai]

Can I tell my origin story? Because I feel like that's really why.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Okay, yeah.

[Amina Altai]

So I've mentioned this before, but I feel like my life was a walking ambition trap. So when I first started my career, I worked in marketing and I was carrying forward all of this familial programming. I was deeply boundaryless and codependent and the child of immigrants and felt like as a brown person, I had to be the hardest working person in the room to be taken seriously.

[Chrissy Teigen]

And a woman.

[Amina Altai]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. In business, right, where people just kind of discount you based on your appearance or your gender or what have you. And I ended up burning out and developing two autoimmune diseases. And it happened in this very dramatic fashion where I had started to feel unwell and there were small symptoms. And I went to seven different doctors before one would take me seriously, because that's a whole thing, too. And then the seventh doctor called me one day while I was driving to a client, and she said, amina, if you don't go to the hospital now instead of going to your client, you'll be days away from multiple organ failure.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Wow.

[Amina Altai]

And so it was this pressure cooker, boiling point moment where I realized my relationship to ambition and success is so broken and I can't be the only one. And I went on this journey to just heal my own life. I called it my Eat Pray Love year, where I went to, like, study mindfulness and coaching and somatics and just at the End of it was like, oh, my God, I feel so much better. I have to soften the learning curve for other people. And then, you know, you attract what you are. So when I became a coach, I was getting all of these really ambitious people, especially historically excluded people, come into my coaching practice with very similar stories. Relationship to ambition isn't working. Right. Especially if you're a woman, a person of color, a queer person, a person with a disability. Right. The world wasn't necessarily designed for us to succeed. So we experience all these other headwinds and far fewer tailwinds. So we're trying to outwork this broken system, and in it we take a hit, we end up getting really sick. We burn out. We feel like we can't break through the glass ceiling, or if we do break through the glass ceiling, we fall off the glass cliff. There just wasn't space for us. And so I just felt like we had to find another way.

[Chrissy Teigen]

When you say you talk to ambitious people, does that mean they're successful or ambitious or both? I'm just curious.

[Amina Altai]

Well, I think everybody's ambitious, naturally. Right. Even when you were saying, like, I'm ambitious about what I want for my kids, that's ambition. Right. And success is such an interesting conversation. Right. Because what is success? Success is how we define it for ourselves. So if they felt successful and they felt like they were really happy and content in their lives, yeah, they were successful. But if it's that good on paper life, I don't know that that's necessarily success, because I think it's hurting a lot of us.

[Chrissy Teigen]

How would one know if they're in painful ambition versus purposeful ambition?

[Amina Altai]

Yes. So I think the dominant paradigm that we see in the world is painful ambition. Ambition that's driven by the core wounds. So there's five core wounds, and we all have them, even if we had the most magical childhood. And they are rejection, abandonment, humiliation, betrayal, and injustice. And we wear corresponding masks based on the wounds that we have. So, for example, one of my wounds is betrayal. The mask we wear is control. So we try to control everything. And so you'll start to see what's.

[Chrissy Teigen]

The abandonment, mask dependence.

[Amina Altai]

So we feel overly reliant on the people around us.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Oh, yeah.

[Amina Altai]

And then rejection is avoidance. So a lot of people that felt rejected, they'll avoid going toward the thing because they don't want to be hurt again. Yeah. Another big one that I see with my clients is the humiliation wound. So we felt like our parents or caregivers were ashamed of us. Then the Mask is masochism or martyrdom. We will be the hardest working person in the room. We will hurt ourselves to achieve the goal because we feel unworthy.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Wow.

[Amina Altai]

So painful ambition is coming from the core, whereas purposeful ambition is coming from a place of wholeness, a place of truth. And painful ambition has a couple of signatures. And so it looks like, again, kind of being the hardest working person in the room and you're willing to instrumentalize your mind and body to get to the goal. You'll also maybe do that with other people and the people that you work with. It also looks like a fixed mindset. So black and white either. Or thinking a self imposed sense of urgency without a real why behind it. So some hallmarks like that.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Wow, I wish I were that person. I don't know. I always think about that, like, why am I not a hustler?

[Amina Altai]

I actually think it's wonderful that you're not a hustler. Right. Because we are radically reframing ambition. Because the idea that ambition has to be hustle I think is broken and it doesn't work for all people. So I think it's magical that you don't feel that way. And what you were saying.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Oh, I feel bad about it though, a lot. Because especially like, Wait, let's talk about this.

[Amina Altai]

Oh, man. Well, I'm so. Tell me about the shame.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Oh, so much shame, girl. So much shame. I look at my life and I'm like, I am afforded every opportunity imaginable. I have every contact imaginable. If I wanted to do this or if I wanted this for my friend or. And I try to make everything happen for everybody and then I'm not doing that for myself. I'm really frustrated and hard on myself. I'm really like, tough on myself about rest when I don't want to do something.

[Amina Altai]

I'm curious, are you comparing yourself to somebody else's path? Right. You said comparison before. Or is there avoidance here around your own growth?

[Chrissy Teigen]

I think a lot of avoidance because I don't like failing. Sucks for sure.

[Amina Altai]

Yeah. But why do you feel like you're not taking advantage of all the opportunities? Because I feel like even this show is such a beautiful example. Right. You have so many amazing voices on the show and a lot of people that we haven't heard of yet.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Yeah.

[Amina Altai]

And I think that that's so generous.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Well, that I can do because it's for other people. I genuinely love this because one, it is so therapeutic for me. I know that the people listening love it and I get to highlight Incredible people like you, that is everything to me. But I don't really like doing things for myself. Why that gets deep. Because I don't deserve it. I'm a punisher. I would say, like, a big thing is like, I don't deserve it.

[Amina Altai]

Yeah.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Because it came too easy.

[Amina Altai]

Okay.

[Chrissy Teigen]

I don't think that me getting Sports Illustrated or getting to be a model was because I was the most beautiful or the tallest, the skinniest. I got that around the time that I got with John, and I knew that that was gonna be a thing, you know, it's alluring. They knew that he would be at the fashion shows. And so the story is, it should be harder.

[Amina Altai]

Sorry to interrupt you.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Yeah, it should be harder.

[Amina Altai]

Whose story is that?

[Chrissy Teigen]

Just lucky. I'm just lucky. And that's why it's so hard to accept, is because it's just luck. And there are people better than you, smarter than you, prettier than you, taller than you, skinnier than you, that will never see the light of day. So I think about that often.

[Amina Altai]

Yeah. I don't fully believe in luck. I feel like every time we show up and we show up well and with integrity, we increase our surface area for luck, which is probably what you did.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Right. If they say it takes 25, then you gotta be excited for those rejections.

[Amina Altai]

Yeah, exactly.

[Chrissy Teigen]

It's a game, a numbers game. Yeah. What is something that you tell each of the people that you work with? Is there something across the board that they need to hear? Usually the ones that are in painful ambition mode.

[Amina Altai]

One of the things that almost makes them drop their shoulders and breathe a sigh of relief is the conversation of, you are enough. Because so many of them are working so hard because they have that wound of, I'm not good enough. There's something fundamentally wrong inside of me. And so they're trying to achieve all of these external acts, accolade to fill that internal wound. And so, as a coach, honestly, I really feel like my job is just to reflect back how amazing they are and to love them unconditionally, which I feel so blessed to do. And when I share that or hold that space, they'll have that sort of moment of relief of, oh, I don't have to chase the validation outside of myself. I'm enough. It's really amazing.

[Chrissy Teigen]

And that's so powerful for people to hear. I don't think I've ever heard it first, like, especially, like, in childhood and stuff. But, yeah. Never felt worthy of anything or never felt like, I mean, the words I'm proud of you. Oh, my God. They ring chills to me because I can't imagine that. Me and John always make this joke about Real Housewives. I'll talk about it again. Man, those women celebrate their wins, big or small.

[Amina Altai]

I love that.

[Chrissy Teigen]

It's really great. Like, they'll do like a soft launch of their lip kit or like hair party and it's not even out yet. Or she buys charay. I mean, they are confident and they celebrate everything. And I look at it and we laugh and we joke. Man, could you imagine, like, throwing a party for yourself because you got nominated for something or because you have an idea for this product that maybe a store has interest in it, and they celebrate that and we laugh because it's so funny that they do that. And then at the end of the day, I go to bed and I'm like, man, I'm actually jealous that they did that. That's so cool.

[Amina Altai]

There's so much in our lives we don't have control over. So celebrating those moments and those wins actually I think is really beautiful.

[Chrissy Teigen]

So how do I know if an opportunity is actually right for me? Or I'm just saying yes because I need the validation and need people to see me as a hard worker and a hungry person. Yeah.

[Amina Altai]

Love this question. So inside the book, there's a five part framework called the Aligned Leadership Framework. And it helps us weigh any opportunity that comes our way to make sure that it's aligned with the truth of who we are. So the five parts.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Wait, so if I gave you an opportunity that was thrown my way, we could unpack it and see if I actually want to do it?

[Amina Altai]

Yeah. Can we do it?

[Chrissy Teigen]

Oh, yeah.

[Amina Altai]

Great. So the five parts are. It has to honor our gift. So we all have zones of genius. The thing that we are off the charts, amazing at that. We were meant to contribute in the world. So it has to tap into our gifts. It has to be values aligned. Because when we work outside of our values, we feel constant friction. It has to be connected to the thing that we want to impact, whether that is for our family, community, or the greater good. It has to foster a sense of contentment, the big C word. And then it has to meet our needs.

[Chrissy Teigen]

I was thrown this incredible opportunity to do this awesome show with this awesome, incredible chef, and it was gonna be on a really glitzy network. This was another hosting opportunity, and it was big and glossy and glitzy and cool. And I said no to it. And I think every day, especially seeing the billboards or seeing the press for it or seeing it on my favorite network. It is a bit soul crushing to see how good of a thing it looks like. And I could have had it. And I don't know if that was the right decision. So maybe we can unpack your five, and that can tell me if I made the right decision or not.

[Amina Altai]

Yeah. Well, do you feel like you made the right decision?

[Chrissy Teigen]

I don't know. I thought I did until I saw how cool the show looks and all the press and promo and how fun it looks. And sometimes I make decisions, like big decisions based on my mood that day. And sometimes if I'm in an exhausted mood, I'm like, oh, no, I could never do this. It's like going to the grocery store when you're full. You don't really want anything.

[Amina Altai]

It's so hard.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Yeah. So I don't know if I made the right decision.

[Amina Altai]

Well, it's interesting because it sounds like the comparison piece was coming up, which you mentioned at the beginning of our conversation, but it also sounds like it didn't fully meet your needs because the timing piece was off.

[Chrissy Teigen]

I have two toddlers. I love my big kids, but they have so many sports and activities and friends stuff. And they're in the mode now where they have the best time without John and I necessarily. But the toddlers, man. It's knowing that I'm not gonna have any more children because of John not wanting to have any more children. I want to suck in every moment of how cute these toddlers are right now. That was the only reason. It was just the babies.

[Amina Altai]

Yeah.

[Chrissy Teigen]

But then I look at them now, and I would be home by now. It would be all over. I might have missed some funny moments or some babble or some days in the park, or I. But I don't know if it was worth it. Cause, I mean, that's so weird to say. Obviously, you love your kids. But now that I'm home and I've been. And I've seen it all, like, I didn't leave for a month or anything. I've been home at this point now I'm like, could I have missed Matt? Maybe I could have. Maybe. What I hear they're so cute, but they wouldn't have noticed.

[Amina Altai]

It's very honest. I love this. But also what I hear is that originally the opportunity cost sounded too expensive. You would have missed six weeks with your kids. And this is a really important. And you didn't want to miss those six weeks. So it didn't meet your needs. Because if it was Here and in your home. You wouldn't miss that time, right? The conditions weren't right for you, but I actually think what's really important about this story is connected to your ambition. You do have a desire for more life and a wish to grow and unfold around this. It sounds like. So then moving forward, when we write the dream, we have to figure out how do we make the conditions and the context the right thing for you so you can meet your needs? How do you design that opportunity but have it be so that you can watch your kids and be with them?

[Chrissy Teigen]

I get to see John be on the Voice and have such a lifestyle. He's home by dinner. We make dinner together. He's here for breakfast. He takes the kids to school every single day. Like, John is living my dream life when it comes to, like, getting to be on a big, glitzy TV show. And it works for him. He thrives in it. And I love seeing that for him because he gets to be an awesome dad still and gets to perform and win awards and do everything. And his balance with it is so good. And I haven't found that exactly yet. I try to do all my work from home, so I'm home a lot. I very rarely leave the house, truly. And when I do, it's like, very, very big. So I think if something does come my way where it felt right and felt great, I'd be so happy to get out of the house. I think right now, at this point, I've just become so comfortable here. And maybe that's why I think I'm not ambitious, is because I don't get out of the house.

[Amina Altai]

I don't hear that in you. I do actually hear ambition right. You're like, this dream looked really good, but it wasn't exactly what I wanted and needed. And this happens for my clients all the time. We'll go through the scorecard, and they'll, well, it's not paying me the salary I want, but I get this free parking spot, and it's like, no, your needs aren't met. And you can call in the thing that looks like that and meets your needs. But that's what I love about this. Let's just refine the dream so you can have what you want and need. And the other thing I'd say, too, is it's so great that you have John as the belief system expander. You're witnessing somebody so close to you that actually has what you want. So if it's possible for him, it's possible for you.

[Chrissy Teigen]

I know, he's just. There's an episode of Seinfeld where Jerry dropped a $20 bill and he lost it. And he was so bummed about it. Then he reached in his pocket and he found like another $20 bill. That's John. Everything always evens out for him. He's the easiest dude ever. Everything always works out. He's assertive when it comes to music and things. But I. And I would not say John is a lucky person at all. Like, he's worked incredibly hard. A little bit of luck involved for sure. But when I watch him, I'm just in awe of how he seems to have done it. All right. He has the, I believe, exact life he wants.

[Amina Altai]

So beautiful.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Yeah, it's really cool.

[Amina Altai]

What do you think it is about him that has allowed that to unfold?

[Chrissy Teigen]

That's a good question. That's really good. He's assertive, but he's open. He genuinely does what he loves. Sometimes there are parts of me that I have to hold back. So I get to be like the perfect person all the time now, but with him, he gets to be 100% himself.

[Amina Altai]

You also get to do that, right? It's a choice. And this is what we're talking about in the five part framework, right? You have magic and a zone of genius. And you just said there's a part of you that holds that part back. But when you work in your zone of genius, what you bring forth is so amazing that it far outpaces what other people could do in that space. Cause it's your secret sauce, right? Like John. He's working in his magic and his secret, and therefore everything is catalytic. Imagine if you would let yourself fully have that.

[Chrissy Teigen]

That is where I would like to be more ambitious, or that is where I have the hunger for it, but this fear that is blocking it because I'm just so scared of disappointing people again or letting people down that I've just created this wall where I'm just not going to be that person. And I'll be funny with my friends and I'll be silly with them, or I'll be really open with people around me. And I'm honestly the most open person on the planet you've ever been. Yeah. But I' like, shut it down a lot because it's too risky now. I've seen too much hurt from it. And so if there's one area of my life where I wish I gave it my all more and let people see it, it would be that area, because I miss that part about Myself.

[Amina Altai]

Well, what you're pointing to, I think is actually super important because as a person of color, as a historically excluded person, it's not always psychologically safe to go to the full truth. Context is so important. I feel the same way. And we can create as much internal stability as we want, but we also live in kind of a trippy world. Right. So you have to really think about.

[Chrissy Teigen]

The psychology in an unfair world, being women of color, being of color, being women, things are just never going to be the same for us. The kind of shit we get is never going to match what a man could say or what a male comedian could get away with saying and things like that. So it's always been frustrating for me, but I've just come to terms with it. I try to think of it as the price I have to pay, but in a way, it is like literally the most important thing to me personally to get to speak up. I mean, I have gut pain even thinking about it.

[Amina Altai]

But for you especially, I think you need to find those community pockets where you can be 100% unabashedly yourself. There's this beautiful TED talk by Brittany Packnett Cunningham, who I love. She's an author and an activist.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Write it down. Brittany what?

[Amina Altai]

Packnet Cunningham. And it's about confidence. And she says confidence needs permission to exist. Community is the safest place to try it on, and curiosity affirms it. And so that confidence that you have inside of you, like the gifts that you have, but it needs to be in a safe community space. And then you need to keep affirmin. Affirming it with curiosity.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Yeah. And I guess threads and Instagram and TikTok are not safe.

[Amina Altai]

Those are not safe pieces. This is such an important conversation because we need to democratize gifts and genius. Everybody has them, but we live in a world that tells us that genius looks one way, that it's high iq, that it's white, that it's male. Right. So when I was writing the book, I traced the lineage of the word genius and all the way going back to ancient Rome. It's always a hero and never a heroine. And there was a study from the 92nd Street Y, and they were looking at girls as young as six and they think that being a genius is a not a female trait. So this is culturally co signed. So the fact that you're like, I don't have genius. Because you've been told that.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Right.

[Amina Altai]

Every single person in the world has a form of genius. And imagine if we lived in a world where everybody was Allowed to let that be and let that speak.

[Chrissy Teigen]

How would you categorize the word genius then? What is a genius to?

[Amina Altai]

Genius is bringing forth the best that is within you. Whatever that is. Whatever that looks like. Oh, so what is the best that is?

[Chrissy Teigen]

I think of genius as like, Albert Einstein, Thomas Edison, high IQ people.

[Amina Altai]

Right? That's it. And you know what, the thing, we talked about this before, but the thing about IQ is again, it measures motivation, not aptitude. And so we have all of these people that are so brilliant in so many ways, but we've discounted it because we live in a world that thinks that brilliance is only one particular way. You have it, I have it. Everybody here has it. It's not for the select few.

[Chrissy Teigen]

I wouldn't know what mine was, really.

[Amina Altai]

Okay, so what is the thing that flows through you so effortlessly that you don't have to push or force? Where do you find yourself in the space of flow?

[Chrissy Teigen]

My sense of humor.

[Amina Altai]

You're very funny.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Even like. Thank you. Even through darkness. I mean, I can push through and make anything funny.

[Amina Altai]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chrissy Teigen]

And I'm very quick. I'm very proud of how quickly I can think of something. And that would be like the most I could ever say about myself. That's positive.

[Amina Altai]

Okay, now what if. What about you? Well done. You did it. You did it. Okay. What about you Allows you to be so quick? How do you figure out the, like, the right thing to say that's so funny. That's gonna land for all of us?

[Chrissy Teigen]

I don't know. Honestly, I do know why I'm funny and that's like, from trauma, I think people that come from like a tragedy plus time travels.

[Amina Altai]

Comedy.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Yes, exactly. The funniest.

[Amina Altai]

Are you able to read people pretty quickly and kind of like, I know what's gonna. Yeah, that's your gift, right. That's your magic. You know what's gonna land? And maybe that comes from trauma, right? Like hyper vigilance. But, you know, they say in Eastern traditions is born of the mud. Doesn't matter where it comes from. That's your gift. You can read people. You know exactly what's going to land for us.

[Chrissy Teigen]

You are honestly so right saying that it comes from having to read people quickly. Because I grew up in a household where I never knew what emotions I had to adapt really quickly to. Are we having a good day? Then I'm going to be happy. Are we going to be good or we're having a bad day? So let's all be. Let's all quiet down. And this is how I'm going to speak to you. So I just really know how to speak to people based on their mood, basically because I grew up like that.

[Amina Altai]

Yeah. You can really read people.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. That comes from, like, a sad place, though, for sure.

[Amina Altai]

The fact that you can understand what people need maybe even before they know what they need, that's certainly a gift. I think there's also a gift of vulnerability with you too, that I think is really beautiful.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Thank you.

[Amina Altai]

And it invites other people into that same vulnerability. How did it feel to say your gifts out loud?

[Chrissy Teigen]

Oh, I don't. Calling them gifts is so funny too.

[Amina Altai]

But everybody has them, so then how could you feel weird about it? Right. It's not like we have them, so we're special and nobody else is. Like, we all have them.

[Chrissy Teigen]

If you were to say traits, I could. I feel like for some reason, the word gift or genius is. Oh, that's a lot.

[Amina Altai]

I wonder if there's some shadow there. Did you have to be excessively humble growing up?

[Chrissy Teigen]

Yes. Yes. Reminds me of being on an airplane and going on, like, modeling jobs and being in business class and having it be full of dudes. And then they would ask me what I did for a living, and I could never say it. I would make something up I would like.

[Amina Altai]

Because saying the thing makes you want to, what, braggadocious? Or there's your shadow. Right.

[Chrissy Teigen]

You're.

[Amina Altai]

You feel like you're not allowed to take up space, fully shine. Because to brag or to even just share what you're good at.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Yeah.

[Amina Altai]

Is a negative thing.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Also, I'm hyper aware of how anything I say or do comes across, and I'm way too aware. So before I say anything or before I type anything, now I know exactly the response I'm gonna get. I've just learned to, like, protect myself by just not doing it at all.

[Amina Altai]

I'm curious if there's someone that has an identity similar to yours out in the world that you see being fully sometimes. Okay. Who? Oh, you don't want to name them for whatever reason. I get that.

[Chrissy Teigen]

God, that's people that I'm, like, so jealous of that they get to speak their mind. Sorry. Who hosted the Golden Globes? Oh, Nikki Glaser. Padma, actually. Padma Lakshmi. I adore her. She's just, like, such a great activist. She's in the food world. She speaks up. She's funny.

[Amina Altai]

Yes. She's hot. I actually feel she's a great belief system expander for you. What do you feel like she's created for Herself that you don't have that she can say the thing out in the world and you can't.

[Chrissy Teigen]

It's hard to even talk about because I trained myself that it's never gonna happen again. So it's a bit of a death, honestly. It's just like a death of a part of me that I'm not gonna get to have that again. And I think there was like a bit of America's sweetheart involved in it where I felt on top of the world and great, and then. And then now it's just terrifying. And I don't think I ever. I don't think I would survive it all again, honestly. So I just gonna stay away from it. So I've buried it. Put up the tombstone. And then I try to make myself happy in other ways, which is not the core of what I really want, though. So when ambition is aligned, what does it actually feel like, like inside your body?

[Amina Altai]

I think it feels like a regulated nervous system. And so many of us operate without one, especially when we're quote, unquote ambitious in the old paradigm sense, or we're chasing success in the old paradigm sense. So many of us feel like we need to be dysregulated and stressed and burned out to achieve the goal. But actually, I think a regulated nervous system is like the ultimate version of success. I've been practicing nervous system work for the last couple of years and incorporating that into my practice. And I was curious how many of these people are running from something and it makes them winners? And how many people are, like, running towards something and it makes them winners? Who's regulated, who's disregulated? And it was really interesting. Like, there are definitely people that are chasing the goal and success from a really dysregulated place. And I don't think that's sustainable at all. We will definitely expose ourselves to illness and injury as a result of that. But then there were people that were doing it with a regulated nervous system, and that just gave me so much hope. Because you don't have to destroy yourself to be successful or to achieve the goal. You can do it in a really harmonious way.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Interesting. We actually talk about emotional regulation a lot. Are you talking about it in terms of dipping your face in ice? How would you classify emotional regulation?

[Amina Altai]

So the body of work that I was immersed in, it teaches you that the body has certain tells. So, for example, when I'm fight or flight, my left shoulder rotates backward because I'm getting ready to run.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Oh, wow.

[Amina Altai]

And so all of our Bodies have different tells. And so our organs move internally because we're either getting ready to fight or we're getting ready to run or getting ready to fawn. Everybody's body has different tails. There are some tells that are universal. Universal. And so you can often tell by looking at somebody's structure.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Oh, interesting.

[Amina Altai]

Yeah. What are other tells? One universal tell is your tongue. It's a black and white indicator of fight or flight. So, for example, if your tongue is at the top of your mouth, it's an indication of rest and digest. If it's more towards the bottom, it's an indication of fight or flight. And it can happen for no good reason. I would just walk down the street sometimes and I'd be like, here she goes in fight or flight again for no reason.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Wait, tongue at the top means what?

[Amina Altai]

Rest and digest.

[Chrissy Teigen]

I don't ever have that. Is that bad?

[Amina Altai]

It's not mine or bad.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Mine's never up. I just did it. It's never been up there before.

[Amina Altai]

That is a novel experience for me. It's so weird. Yeah.

[Chrissy Teigen]

They've never met before.

[Amina Altai]

It's not good or bad. It's just the way that we are conditioned. And then over time, it is helpful to be more regulated because the more dysregulated we are, our bodies can express disease. And so it can be helpful to.

[Chrissy Teigen]

I'm going to be so aware of that now. Now mine, like, pushes against my bottom teeth or like below the. Below that area.

[Amina Altai]

Great, great awareness.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Is that. What does that mean?

[Amina Altai]

Well, you don't want to make it wrong or bad. Right? Because then we kind of stay. We're like, it's wrong. I have no.

[Chrissy Teigen]

It's really interesting to me.

[Amina Altai]

I love learning, actually, if you just notice it. So in the body of nervous system work that I was studying, if you just put awareness on the two points, like the tip of your tongue and the bottom of your chin, and you do it for two minutes, your tongue will actually move. And so it's sort of a mindfulness practice.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Oh, I love it. It's almost like when they tell you, notice the smell, notice the taste, notice how it sounds.

[Amina Altai]

Cause we live so far out of our bodies. And so by bringing awareness, what happens is, is our brain, if we go to, like, the past or the future, we're not in our bodies. Our brain can't update the map of the present moment. So our bodies are like, we're not in the present moment. We're not safe. But when you bring awareness, you update the map of the moment.

[Chrissy Teigen]

What do you want readers to walk away with? Not just in work, but in how they see themselves.

[Amina Altai]

The whole reason that I wrote this book is that I wanted people to understand that ambition is for everyone. It is neutral and natural. We all have a right to it, and we've made it right for some people and wrong for others. And I think we really need to course correct that story. And I think that our ambition will look different to what we've seen, to the dominant paradigm. And it's supposed to, because what we've seen has been so dysfunctional. But everybody deserves their dreams. Everybody deserves to allow themselves to unfold and let their gifts speak. And that's what I hope people walk away with. And you, too.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Thank you. One day you'll see me out there being sassy, and you'll remember this conversation.

[Amina Altai]

Be so pleased.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Just an old sassy on her porch. And now for the toolkit. Each episode, our guests distill their expertise into practical and actionable insights. Today, Amina takes us through an exercise designed to help us lose our painful ambition.

[Amina Altai]

So now we're going to do an exercise on the core wounds. And so we want to understand which core wounds are yours and might potentially be driving a dysfunctional relationship with ambition. So which core wounds are driving us into painful ambition versus purposeful? Okay, I'm going to read you the core wounds and the corresponding masks, and then you tell me which ones hit the most. So the first wound is a rejection wound, which means you felt dismissed and not accepted as a child. And then the mask we wear is avoidance or withdrawal, and you feel a need to escape or run away from people and experiences that bring discomfort.

[Chrissy Teigen]

You're avoidant, so I'll say yes.

[Amina Altai]

Okay, rejection plus one. Abandonment. You felt discarded. Let's find that already. Okay. Abandonment. You felt discarded as a child and fear being neglected as an adult, including by yourself. You likely grew up with a deep sense of loneliness. And then the mask we wear is dependence. You're emotionally reliant on partners in your closest circle and often feel like you can't manage on your own.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Yes.

[Amina Altai]

Okay. Abandonment and reject. The next one is humiliation, where you felt like one or more of your caregivers were ashamed of you, and there was an underlying feeling that it was impossible to feel safe or joyful and safe in that joy. And then the mask we wear is masochism or martyrdom, where we put others needs before our own, and we're overly helpful and often feel guilty about experiencing pleasure. We can be martyrs.

[Chrissy Teigen]

I have all those characteristics deeply they're high up characteristics, but I wouldn't say that I ever felt unwanted or. That's a tough one for me.

[Amina Altai]

Yeah, it sounds a bit more like rejection versus abandonment.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Yeah, okay.

[Amina Altai]

Betrayal. You experience feelings of disappointment and fractured trust from your caregivers. You feel they did not live up to expectations. And then the mask we wear is control. You feel a need to control everything around you. You find it challenging to trust others and easier to do things yourself. Yourself.

[Chrissy Teigen]

No, and I should. It's so weird. Great, but good.

[Amina Altai]

Great. Then the last one is injustice. You felt your individuality in childhood was restrained. You likely had a negative response from a caregiver in connection with your unique personality. You felt unappreciated for your true self and like you didn't receive what you truly deserved. So the mask we wear is rigidity. You feel a need to live in a perfect world with no space for pain or discomfort. You choose to work hard to block your sensitivity and are highly demanding of yourself.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

[Amina Altai]

Okay, so we've got rejection, abandonment, humiliation, and injustice. No, no, not humiliation.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Humiliation. We're safe from that. One great thing, though.

[Amina Altai]

Yes, rejection, abandonment and injustice. Okay, so of the three, which one feels the most loud for you?

[Chrissy Teigen]

Oh, probably abandonment. Okay, what was the last one?

[Amina Altai]

Ingestion.

[Chrissy Teigen]

The one that hurts the most would be the injustice.

[Amina Altai]

Okay, great. Let's go towards that. Okay, so injustice is the loudest wound. The mask we wear is rigidity. So when you think about injustice and how you felt as a child, so feeling like your unique individuality was restrained, where do you feel it in your body?

[Chrissy Teigen]

My chest.

[Amina Altai]

Okay. Yeah, right, like right here.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Shoulders. Chest. Yeah.

[Amina Altai]

Okay.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Yeah.

[Amina Altai]

And just close your eyes for a second, if you don't mind. So if you tune into that space, tell me about the sensation that's there. Is it hot?

[Chrissy Teigen]

Cold?

[Amina Altai]

Is it vibrating? What do you feel there?

[Chrissy Teigen]

While I know it's there, I feel nothing.

[Amina Altai]

Okay, let's not make you wrong for that. Okay. Now, as we kind of connect with that sensation in the body again, in the chest and heart space and the shoulders. If you were to give that area a voice around the injustice that you felt, what would it say?

[Chrissy Teigen]

Mm, I wish I got to be me.

[Amina Altai]

Mm. How old is that version of you?

[Chrissy Teigen]

It's probably eight.

[Amina Altai]

You're doing great. And so I want you to connect with that little 8 year old version of you around the injustice wound. What does she need? When she was saying I just want to be me, what does she need from adult you?

[Chrissy Teigen]

Affection, support, activities, And I just want.

[Amina Altai]

You to kind of of tune in again. And I want you to ask yourself, where has the injustice wound and therefore the rigidity mask intercepted your relationship with ambition or made it feel a little wobbly? So where your individuality was restrained, how has that complicated your relationship with ambition?

[Chrissy Teigen]

I don't deserve wins or pleasure. That ambition would only lead to success, which is maybe undeserved when so many other people deserve it more. Or I just got lucky and fell into it. Yeah.

[Amina Altai]

Okay, beautiful. So I want you to thank yourself for allowing yourself to go there. And I'd love for you to make a promise to yourself right now. So what promise can you make for yourself around that to support the core wound?

[Chrissy Teigen]

I promise myself that I will accept opportunities where I get to feel fulfilled and happy and joyful and creative and speak my mind. I promise that I will go into things with less fear. And I promise that I'll try not to be so hard on myself.

[Amina Altai]

I love that. And you said it on the podcast in a public forum. So we're all here to hold you accountable. Okay.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Okay.

[Amina Altai]

It's happening. So when you're ready, you can open your eyes.

[Chrissy Teigen]

My eyes are watering. This was supposed to be joyful. No, I'm just kidding. I was like, I'm not gonna cry in this one. It's funny, though, because we said this at the very beginning before these cameras were on or anything. And then you had mentioned that still all of this is ambition is exciting and fun and great to talk about. It's fun to talk about success and wins and being hungry. But so much of it is really childhood.

[Amina Altai]

Yeah.

[Chrissy Teigen]

And childhood is what gets me, like.

[Amina Altai]

Yeah, of course. Because that little version of you needs something that she didn't get.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Amina Altai]

But grown up you is so amazing and magical and can give her those things.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Aminah, thank you so much for today. That was exceptional. Honestly, that was so, so needed. And it's so funny because it really touches upon so many different parts of somebody's life ambition. And I never really thought of it like that. In going into this, I honestly thought our conversation would be about how to be successful, how to get what you want, and how to maybe push people out of the way to get what you want. And I didn't think we'd be, like, looking back so much and really seeing what we need. So I think your book is so beautiful and thank you so much for being here.

[Amina Altai]

Oh, my gosh. Thank you for having me. It has been an honor and a joy to sit with you and to feel who you are on the inside. And I just feel so grateful.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Thank you so much, Amina. Thank you for being here, Amina. I want to thank you so much for joining me on Self Conscious. The Ambition Trap by Amina Altai is available on Audible. Until then, tune in, turn on and feel better. This is Chrissy Teigen and you've been listening to Self Conscious, an Audible Original podcast. This has been an Audible original produced by Audible, Audible and Huntley Productions, hosted by Chrissy Teigen Written and directed by Jimmy Jelinek Executive Producers Jimmy Jelinek Chrissy Teigen Executive Producer for Audible Stacy Creamer, Head of Creative Development at Audible Kate Navin Chief Content Officer Rachel Gyazza Copyright 2024 by Audible Originals, LLC Sound Recording Copyright 2024 by Audible Originals, LLC Sat.