Andrew McCarthy: Who Needs Friends? The Male Loneliness Wake-Up Call

Summary

Episode Overview

Podcast: Self-Conscious with Chrissy Teigen
Guest: Andrew McCarthy, actor and author of "Who Needs Friends? An Unscientific Examination of Male Friendship Across America"
Episode Title: Who Needs Friends? The Male Loneliness Wake-Up Call
Date: March 26, 2026
Theme:
Chrissy Teigen and Andrew McCarthy engage in a candid, wide-ranging conversation about the crisis of male loneliness, the decline of meaningful male friendships, and the personal, practical steps men—and those who love them—can take to break the cycle of isolation. Drawing both from Andrew’s personal journey to reconnect with old friends and stories collected from men nationwide (featured in his new book), the episode demystifies male vulnerability and offers actionable wisdom on rekindling connection.

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Key Topics and Discussion Points

1. The Wake-Up Call: Male Loneliness and Its Impact

• Chrissy introduces staggering stats: “One in seven men has no close friends. And chronic loneliness affects the body, like smoking 15 cigarettes a day.” (00:03)
• Chrissy notes the emotional burden this places on women.
• Andrew shares the pivotal moment: his 21-year-old son’s casual observation that he had no friends led to deep introspection and a 10,000-mile road trip to rekindle old bonds (02:03).

2. Friendship by the Numbers & Cultural Shifts

• Social changes: technology, social media, and American ideas of masculinity have eroded male connections (05:03).
• Physical risks of loneliness: "People who are lonely...it's equivalent to smoking 15 cigarettes and drinking six alcoholic drinks a day. They have a 50% higher rate of dementia." (05:09)
• Historical context: in the 19th century, men’s friendships were openly affectionate (example: Abraham Lincoln and Joshua Speed).

3. Vulnerability, Shame, and the “Lone Wolf” Myth

• Andrew: “Guys...are pretty bad at maintaining friends,” and vulnerability often equates to perceived weakness (03:54, 05:41).
• Heartfelt anecdote: two Texas friends started saying "I love you" after decades, confronting the taboo (07:50).
  • Quote: "Why can't I tell my dearest friend in the world that I love him? It doesn't make me gay.” (08:00)

4. The Weight of Shame and Provider Pressure

• Men often carry an “inherent sense” of not being enough—not manly or successful enough (09:00).
• Quote: “If you see that, then you won't like me. So I'm not going to show you myself. This notion that we're not enough and we're not man enough. I certainly had that.” (09:08)
• Unique, male “weight of obligation” to provide, which paradoxically isolates them (12:13).

5. Differences in Male vs. Female Friendship

• Adult male friendship requires much more active effort, lacks the naturalness of youth bonds (10:36).
• Women address issues directly; men “just don't go to that confrontation often” (11:16, 25:16).
• On loss and longevity: men rarely “change chapters” as women might with marriage, menopause, etc., leading to less acknowledgment and discussion of emotional shifts (11:24).

6. Consequences of Isolation—And Breaking the Spell

• Men without friends, especially those in relationships, often offload all social-emotional needs onto partners—or withdraw entirely (13:54).
  • Example: a Nevada man who “never had friends” and didn’t even confide in his wife (13:54).
• Stark rise in men with no close friends: “In 1990, 3% of men said they had no close friends. Now 25%. People without high school diplomas: 35%.” (15:15)
• Young men more open with female friends; older men see loneliness as weakness (15:15–16:39).

7. Practicing Friendship—Building and Rebuilding Bonds

• The importance of showing up, physically and emotionally—road trip as metaphor and real action (22:42–23:54).
• Reconciliation after absence: Andrew visits a friend in Kentucky, discovers he missed a heart attack. Friend says: “You were being like a selfish asshole and weren’t around. But you’re here now.” (24:41)

8. Friendship as Safety and Lifeline

• Andrew describes the comfort of having “get in the truck” friends who would travel hours to help—true friendship as “safety” (20:08).
  • Quote: “It’s not so much our friend’s help that helps us, it’s knowing they will help us.” (21:12)
• Exemplifies Aristotle’s three types of friendships, emphasizing “perfect friends” who make us better and feel safe (23:54).

9. Overcoming Inertia: Tools and Advice

• If you feel it’s been “too long”: “Just get in the car and go see your friend. Show up.” (22:31, 22:42)
• Consistency over grand gestures: “Me showing up once...is not really anything. It’s the ongoing thing.” (27:47)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Andrew on modeling friendship:
  “Kids don’t listen to us. They learn by what we model. Right?” (02:10)
• Chrissy on female friendship evolution:
  “With women, they're marked changes...and men don't have those chapters so much. So you don't really realize that a man could appreciate you for your 10 years ago era, 5 years ago era.” (11:24)
• Andrew on love in friendship:
  “I do love that guy...to be able to own that is, you know, what a relief.” (08:26)
• On the burden of being provider:
  “It’s a real male indoctrinated thing...if you can’t, you’re less of a man. Everybody I knew...carried that.” (12:13)
• On showing up:
  “Physically showing up, knocking on the door. In the other sense, calling up my friend...consistency is everything, isn’t it?” (27:47)
• The best-case scenario for late reconnection:
  Friend: “But you’re here now.” (25:04)
• On action:
  “Take the chance. No one else is going to do it. It’s our life.” (28:27)
• Friendship in the smallest sense:
  “Did you go to the doctor yesterday? Oh, yeah, I did. Thanks for calling.” (27:47)

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Segment Timestamps

• 00:03–02:02 — Introduction and Andrew’s “friendship wake-up call”
• 02:03–04:55 — Story of rekindling old friendships; start of the road trip
• 05:03–07:46 — Social context and the health impact of loneliness; historical perspective
• 07:46–09:00 — Taboo of male intimacy and language of love between men
• 09:00–11:16 — Shame, vulnerability, and provider pressure
• 13:13–16:39 — Friendship differences by gender and age; statistics on friendship decline
• 20:08–21:12 — The safety of true friendship (“get in the truck” friends)
• 22:31–27:47 — Reconnecting after years; confronting absence; Aristotle’s three types of friends
• 27:47–29:18 — Practical advice for taking action and maintaining friendships

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Actionable Takeaways & Advice

• Role Model Connection: Show, don’t just tell, for the next generation (02:10)
• Acknowledge Shame: Most men have hidden insecurities about not being “man enough” (09:00)
• Reach Out Consistently: It’s not the grand gestures, but routine check-ins that sustain real friendship (27:47)
• Embrace Vulnerability: Initiate “real talk” and acknowledgment of affection
• Show Up: Don’t wait for the perfect moment or an invitation—just reach out and make contact (22:42)
• Accept Imperfection: Friendships can be long and “imperfect roads”; what matters is presence now (24:41)
• Lifelong Work: The healthiest, happiest lives are rooted in active, ongoing connection

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Final Message

Chrissy sums up: “That was so enlightening and beautiful and thank you for being a man the world needs.” (29:18)
Andrew reflects: “Connection is everything. Take the chance...starting it up again is a very normal thing to do.” (28:27)

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For Listeners:

This episode is both a wake-up call and a practical guide for men and their loved ones to reclaim the lost skill of friendship—one honest connection at a time.

Transcript

[A]

You're listening to Self Conscious with Chrissy Teigen, an Audible original podcast. Join me as we explore the cutting edge of health, wellness, and personal growth with the world's leading experts and thinkers. From inspiring stories to actionable insights, our conversations aim to help you lead a healthier, happier, and more productive life. Most women don't need to be convinced that connection matters. You check in on your friends, plan the group text, remember the birthdays. But almost every woman I know has a man in her life who doesn't have that same support system. And you can see the weight that it puts on them, even if they can't. Because here's the part that matters for all of us. One in seven men has no close friends. And chronic loneliness affects the body, like smoking 15 cigarettes a day. And who often ends up carrying the emotional load when men have no one else. Often women. Actor and writer Andrew McCarthy realized he had let his friendships fade to almost nothing. And instead of hoping it would fix itself, he got in his car and drove nearly 10,000 miles to see if those relationships could be rebuilt. His new book, who Needs An Unscientific Examination of Male Friendship Across America, is one man's attempt to understand why so many men end up alone and what it takes to change that. Today we're talking about what Andrew learned on the road. How men can restart friendships that have gone silent. How to push through the shame and awkwardness that keeps them from reaching out. And what partners can do to support the men they love without becoming their entire social network. Andrew McCarthy, welcome to Self Conscious. Thank you so much for being here today. I'm so excited to talk to you about male friendships. I think it's really cool that you decided to speak on it. So thank you for being here.

[B]

Yeah, thank you.

[A]

When your son told you, dad, you don't have any friends, what part of that hit the hardest?

[B]

He was right in the sense that as far as he knew, I didn't. And kids don't listen to us. They learn by what we model. Right? It dawned on me and that he hadn't seen me modeling any kind of friendship.

[A]

How old was he at that time?

[B]

He was 21 at the time. I mean, we were sitting in the kitchen. I was sitting at the table having a cup of tea. He was strumming his guitar, telling a story about one of his good buddies and just a ridiculous dating story. And then when the story was over, I said, rocco's a fool, Sammy. And he goes, yeah, I know. I love him. And then he stopped strumming and he looked up at me and that's when he said, you don't really have any friends, do you, dad? And he didn't mean it in that any kind of nasty or snarky way. He just meant it the way kids say things that are the truth. There's more to my life than my kids are aware, as there is with all of us. It's a shocking moment when we grow up and realize our parents have lives

[A]

outside of, like, fully formed humans.

[B]

I know for fully formed. I said to him, I said, sam, I've got friends. I just don't see them, but I know they're there, and that's enough. He accepted that answer and he went off to see his girlfriend. And I thought, it's not enough. I had these three friends that were instrumental in my life when I was young in New York and me becoming who I became as a person. And we would go, you know, I'd see them every day, and I hadn't seen them in years. I realized I needed to see my friends. So I got in the car and I drove across country and I went to see my friends, which was an amazing experience. And it turned into this whole other kind of thing. It turned into a 10,000 mile road trip of me stopping and talking to men that I would meet along the way. I met, you know, cops in Ohio and blues musicians in Mississippi and oil rig workers in Texas. I would approach random men and I would say, excuse me, can I talk to you about your friends? And they looked at me like, who are you? After the initial shock, none of them said no.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, I was shocked that everyone talked to me and I was interested in their experience with male friendship. Because guys, it turns out, are pretty bad at maintaining friends. Women, you could speak to this much better than me. I think you cultivate your friendships, you nurture them. You are actively. My wife is actively engaged. You know, I'm going out to have coffee with Courtney.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And this is always happening. I never, ever say, I'm going out to meet Bob. It was interesting to meet all the, you know, and every guy I met along the way. Most common responses, I've never talked about this before. Wow, this is really interesting. Even guys who are friends for 60 years, these two former cops in Ohio, they're in their 70s and they met when they were 10, and they've been best friends ever since. Halfway through our conversation, they said, we've never talked about our friendship before. They just are friends in that guy way. And so it's interesting to have people bring it out into the light and talk about it. And it was interesting to talk to my friends when I would go see my friends, the fellows I went to see, to actively talk about our friendship, which we'd never done either.

[A]

Do you feel like something has changed in American life that makes it harder for men today than when you were younger?

[B]

I think the obvious answers are the social media and all these kind of screens and all that isolators. But there are staggering statistics of loneliness causes extraordinary physical damage. People who are lonely, it's equivalent to smoking 15 cigarettes and drinking six alcoholic drinks a day. And they have a 50% higher rate of dementia. People that are isolated and lonely, 38% higher risk of heart disease and things like that. So it manifests physically. Harvard did this 85 year study and at the end of this 85 year study, they concluded the number one thing for a longer, healthier, happier, more successful life is meaningful connection to your community. And I thought that. I saw that as I was starting my trip and I was like, oh, shit, I don't qualify for that. And so there's all sorts of numbers that back up the notion. I think men are four times more likely to commit suicide than women. And older men, particularly older men, get very isolated. I met a lot of guys on my trip that were very isolated. As we get older, you lose potency. When men have that potency, whether it's the boardroom or the bedroom, you know, they're men, you know, and once that starts to recede as we get older, a lot of men don't know what happens now. They withdraw and they get ashamed and isolated and alone and, you know, alone in our own head for too long is not such a great idea. I love being in my head and I love trying to work things out. But at a certain point, you gotta reach out and go, dude, what are you doing? Guys don't have a habit of it, whereas women are a bit better at having a habit life of interaction. Often, you know, it's a generalization of course, but guys tend to be crap at nurturing that kind of thing. And you know, the idea of vulnerability for man is equates with weakness. And the one thing a man can't be is weak. And vulnerability can often be seen as weakness. And that's just totally best. Ackroyd. It's how we got that is insane. It's that John Wayne macho, carry your own water, lone wolf attitude which gets no one anywhere in the end. But it's being become a very American Ideal of manhood. And it doesn't help the women in our lives. It doesn't help the children in our lives. And I did all this research when I was doing the book back in the 19th century, like, Abraham Lincoln and Joshua Speed were best friends. They shared a bed for four years. And some people say it was a homosexual relationship. But a lot of people go, no, that's nonsense. Men were much more affectionate physically and with words. There's this letter I read John Adams wrote to talking to one of us. My dear, my heart ached as you left us. You know what I mean? And men obviously would not say that now, but somewhere between 1850 and 1950, the idea of male friendship drunk and hardened. It's weird. And it's like, why

[A]

is there somebody that you met on the road that really sticks out to you?

[B]

There were these two guys who were just talking about exactly this. These two guys I met in Texas who. They'd been friends for almost 50 years. And they said, you know, we started saying I love you to each other just last year. I can tell my kids, my wife, that I love him. Why can't I tell my dearest friend in the world that I love him? It doesn't make me gay. That's where guys go, right? Any kind of intimacy to men, it often means gay. So you can't have an intimate friendship with people. Guys, unless they're gay, often have difficulty being perceived, you know what I mean? So there's so much fear that it prevents it. One of the guys I went to see, since we reconnected, whenever we chat on the phone, he hangs up and he goes, love you, pal. At the end. And I was just like, okay, see? And I thought about it. I'm like, what's my problem? Yeah. And it turned into a psychological thing about my father and all this kind of stuff. But it took a minute for me to go, I love you too, Sev. And it felt great. I do love that guy. I've known for 40 years, and it means a lot to me. To be able to own that is, you know, what a relief. Keeping that pushed back is weird, but that's the norm now.

[A]

What's a form of shame that men carry that prevents them from reaching out?

[B]

Just this inherent sense of who we are. The couple guys I talked to in Arizona, they belong to one of these men's groups. You know, I'm not a big joiner, but they talk about this idea of shame and that I'm a piece of shit. And if you see that, then you won't like me. So I'm not going to show you myself this notion that we're not enough and we're not man enough. I certainly had that for a long time in my life. I was a small, emotionally accessible, vulnerable and it helped my acting career. When I was young. My leading card was my vulnerability. But I certainly wasn't man enough in that way. And I have a friend of mine who I go to see in the book. He's an outdoorsman, he's a mountain climber and he lives in Wyoming. And I went to see him and when we first started going outdoors together, we'd go camping or go canoeing or climbing. I feel like he's going to just look at me and go, who is this wimpy guy? And I was just. That's what I was afraid of. I'm not man enough to be out there. And whatever this notion was, I had myself this shame about that I'm not some idea of what I think I ought to be. When I finally confessed this to him, he said, the hell are you talking about? But we all are living one internal life and our external life is entirely different. So I think shame is a bit like that joke with the two fish swimming in the water. One fish says, ain't the water fine today? And the other fish goes, what water? Shame is pervasive. We don't know it's there. Shame makes us withdraw, hide and put up a barrier between me and you. So you don't know that about me, because if you know that about me, you won't like me.

[A]

How many friends would you say were on your list that you had definitely wanted to stop by and see on your road trip?

[B]

Three old friends I've had for 40 odd years that I needed to see. And there were two other men who I've met in adulthood, I would call it. You know, it's interesting. Making friends in adults is different than friends when we're young because it requires an active effort. You know, when you're young, friendship seems to just happen with certain people and just. It just happened to us. And we're friends. We don't even know why. You know, my wife once said about one of my friends, he's a bit slippery, isn't he? He's my friend, yeah, you know, end of conversation. I accept that aspect. If that were the case with Dolores and her friend, she would have to confront that friend, talk about it, have a cup of tea, maybe they'd cry and have some hugs and they would end up deeper and closer bonded after this kind of thing.

[A]

This is who he is and I love him. Exactly, yeah.

[B]

That's part of who he is and that's his trip. Sometimes it gets so large that you can't overlook that.

[A]

Yeah, of course. But man, I think the greatest part about knowing somebody for so long and what makes me emotional about any of my friendships is knowing they've been there for every part of you. Right. What do they say humans change every seven years or something? It's really beautiful to see so many people go through all of that with you. With women, they're marked changes. Getting married, having children, perimenopause, menopause, like those are very like broken down chapters in our lives. And men don't have those chapters so much. So you don't really realize that a man could appreciate you for your 10 years ago era, 5 years ago era. So that's why your friend was probably so like, what the fuck? When you came to him and felt like shame or vulnerability. Yeah, they're going through that too. It's always so beautiful to me.

[B]

Yeah. You know, one of the things I encountered which I really carry and feel, you know, this sense of weight, of obligation to provide. It's a real male indoctrinated thing. Everyone I encountered felt a weight, this notion that a man should provide for his people and if you can't, you're less of a man. Everybody I knew, everybody I encountered carried that. And that can be a real isolating thing. And like I said, my wife is more capable in many things than I am. And she's. And nobody keeps their head better in a crisis. And I'm pass panicking all over the place and she's like going, no, we go there, you know, she's much better, but I need to take care and make sure everyone is okay, make sure everyone is happy and everyone is safe. Whether there's reality in that is another that can be debated. But I certainly feel the weight of that. And when I say that to my friend, guy friends, they would just go, yeah, of course. Obviously, you know, and I think that's a real isolating thing. And I do ask John, when you go, do you feel responsible, like you

[A]

have to take care? Of course.

[B]

And. But then it also gives us great self esteem. You know, when you feel like you can, it places you in the world. But I think it's important to then realize, you know, we all have clay feet too. Nobody's infallible. The minute you think, okay, me, provider Alpha, you know, it's like, get over it, something's going to come along and sideswipe you and you're just going to be a mess. And I feel it. I feel it hugely in my life and it's not necessary in the world I live in and in the relationship I'm in. It's what I feel.

[A]

Did you feel a difference between men that had spouses or partners without male friendships versus the people that do have a partner and male friendships?

[B]

Yeah, a lot. There was one guy I remember meeting in Nevada and he said that he never had friends. And I said. He said, I just never did that. I said, well, you married? He goes, yeah, 40 years. Do you talk your wife? He said, no, I don't talk to her, that stuff. I was like, wow, that must be pretty isolating. He goes, yeah. I said, I was thinking for her, but a lot of men, their wife runs their social calendar. I met this cowboy in Wyoming and he was talking about that. Just that his wife handled that. And I said, do you have any female friends? No, no, twice. He said it quickly and I just thought, God, that is. I don't know. I mean, he had a certain credo of life of, you know, the cowboy up kind of mentality that he really believed in and that tough is better than happy. That's a credo for life. And when he was passing on to his children, it was fine, but it's certainly. It's not how I would choose to live. It seemed isolating and walling us off in that way. And that a man wouldn't have any female friend. Yeah, because I guess there's a sexual threat there or something that women are going to throw themselves at you. You're not good looking or you can't control yourself around them. My male and my female friends and my wife, I get different needs met. That's important and valuable. I don't think one person can meet all our needs.

[A]

On your travels, were you specifically talking about male friendships or did it come up with a lot of people, the topic of female friends?

[B]

Well, I was particularly interested in male friendship because when I started looking around and doing research how it was sort of in crisis, you know, all these buzzwords about it now. I think in 1990, 3% of men said they had no close friends. Now 25% of men said they have no close friends at all. And people without a high school diploma, 35% have no friends at all. So I was interested in the male perspective of it. But then quickly it becomes you're not cutting off half the world. I was fascinated by there was this kid I met in West Virginia who talked about how he would talk to women. He would be vulnerable with a woman say he's really scared or he's upset his grandma died, he was really upset about it and he would tell a female friend and be vulnerable whereas with a guy he wouldn't do that. He might say it but yeah, my grandma kicked but he wouldn't allow that kind of vulnerability with a guy. And I said do you wish that you could? He said no, I wouldn't want to do that. And this is a 22 year old guy. Young people versus older people. Young people were very quick to admit how lonely they were whereas older men particularly said no, not lonely, never. No, loneliness equates to weakness. A man can't be weak. If you can't admit the problem you can't solve it. So you just get further isolated in options narrow and narrow. Whereas young people, God bless them, were very accessible and yeah, I get lonely every day. Oh my God, I get so lonely. But I think there's staggering statistics of Gen X and gen Z like 78% of people say they're low Staggering numbers.

[A]

I'm appreciative of the self awareness that they know the online world is no duplicate real life interactions they understand that's not real friendship.

[B]

I think what's interesting too about the online I don't, you know I'm no expert in it but you know people are online talking about everything. I see my daughter, my 19 year old daughter on watching tiktoks of people just confessing everything.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know when I grew up and I started in show business it was like you didn't tell anyone anything.

[A]

Talking about shame. There is no shame.

[B]

Yeah, there's no, there's something wonderfully accessible that like so these kids can then easily admit their lone life whereas someone in my generation wouldn't as easily. I think there's something great about that. But then they're still even further isolated because all they do is that I

[A]

know and they're not dating anymore.

[B]

Well, kids don't have sex. It's really weird.

[A]

Yeah, I know. John was fascinated with learning that.

[B]

It's really weird. It's like Jesus, when I was 19, 20 all I could think about, I wasn't getting any. That's all I could think about. They view sex differently than we did. Yeah, I love how accessible they are. It doesn't mean they're any more savvy or smart about them but that they're not ashamed of them so much.

[A]

Yeah I mean, the feelings are out there, whether a complete vulnerability or total toxic masculinity. Like being like this is what you need to do. There's all parts of it that exist online.

[B]

Well, I think all that toxic masculinity you talk about, all that incel stuff is all just. That's just isolation, Isolation, loneliness. People have walled themselves off. There's connection in life and there's isolation. That, to me, is what was interesting.

[A]

What is one thing you now understand about male friendship that your younger self was never able to see.

[B]

I guess I'm just able to articulate how valuable my friends are to me and articulate to them how valuable they are to me because I think women do that quite well. But I think guys never do that like we were talking about before, and I think be able to stay like you're saying, I love you, you know, and just the value of that and to realize I'm better off for having these people in my life. And like I said, I love being alone. I love being by myself. I prefer my own company much of the time, but it's important. Connection is everything at the end of the day. When my dad was dying seven, eight years ago, I didn't get on with my dad for years in my adult life. We didn't see each other often because last 30 years of his life, when he was dying, I went to him again. My wife said, you need to go see your dad. And I'm like, oh, yeah, you're right. And I did it selfishly to be a better parent to my kids. And so I went and sat with my dad while he was dying. And we didn't solve our past, but we put it down. You know, I put it down. I don't know what he did, but I was there to tell him, I'm not the son you wanted. We had a difficult time together. But you're my dad and you're dying and I love you. I'm gonna hold your lizard like hand now. And that was a very powerful, liberating experience for me.

[A]

Absolutely. Imagine if you hadn't done that and him being able to see you do that. He's so lucky for that.

[B]

Yeah. That kind of gift pays dividends over time. It didn't happen instantly, but in time I was. Oh, wow. I could have feelings of love for my dad. I wouldn't have said that for many years. There were a lot of complications and he was an angry dude and it scared the hell out of me when I was young. But to let that go and realize oh, there's love under. Yeah, that was huge for me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But at the end of the day, that's underneath all these friendships. It's just love. Guys can't have difficulty going back to a saying, I love you, dude. You know, and not being a bro about it. Being a bro is great, but being a bro is often just hiding behind broness.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To be able to just go, dude, you're so important to me. I'm so glad I came to see you. Yeah. And to say that to each other and then to go, thank you for coming, man. Thank you for coming down. I needed to see you. I didn't know I needed to see your ugly face. Oh, God knows I'm no expert. What my wife said to me, it triggered my going, is this sort of. You're starting to isolate here in a way that I know you like your own company. But guys easily go to anger, and that's always fear. So I, I, I couldn't speak. I wouldn't claim to be some kind of expert. You know, I just see it with guys. It just gets harder and harder. That shell. I met these evangelicals down in Mississippi. Great guys. My God, they were great. They're talking about the mask, Andy. The mask we wear is men. And they were going on, and they're fantastic. There's this guy I met in Marfa, Texas, toughest nails. And really he was an offshore oil wildcat guy. And he goes, yeah, I got three get in the truck buddies. And I'm like, what's that? He goes, well, I call up Rodney. He lives in Houston, which is eight hours away. I said, rodney, I need you. I know Rodney will get in that truck and drive eight hours. When I say, get in the truck, he feels safe in the world. Everyone just wants to feel safe. Guys feel responsible for keeping people safe. So they don't feel safe. Well, how do they, you know, they're out there with nothing on ground underneath us. So if we have a friend, he's going to come get me in eight hours. You know, I remember driving across the country, and I was, I was in a rental car and engine warning light came on while I was in Tennessee. So I still had to get through Mississippi and Louisiana. And it was on the whole time. And the minute I crossed the border to Texas to see my friend who lives in Dallas, which is five hours driving beyond where I was crossing the border. But the minute I crossed the border into Texas, my shoulders relaxed. I go, if I break down, Eddie will come get me. I just felt safe. You Know, I think it was Aristotle or one of these wise old Greek dudes said, it's not so much our friend's help that helps us, it's knowing they will help us. And that notion that I felt like Eddie would come get me, and I said that to him, he goes, you don't want to come down in Louisiana, too, if you wrote down. But somehow for me, that was the wall. That was the Texas border. We need to feel that kind of camaraderie. If we're not good at it and we don't have practice at it and a habit of it, you know, it's really going back to what we were saying at the beginning. I realized I did my kids a real disservice by not having a habit of active friendship.

[A]

You know, it's great when you can feel like no time has passed and you don't have to apologize. What would you say to the man that feels like he has let too much time pass?

[B]

Well, isolation does that. Isolation makes us. It tells us those things, and those voices in our head tell us that all the time. And that's what I felt with my friends. I wasn't planning to drive across the country. I was going to get on a plane and fly, go see each one individually over the time. So I called them all up, and they were all too busy. Their lives were happening, you know, they weren't waiting for me to pop back in and rekindle our friendship. My first friend down in Baltimore, I just. He canceled on me twice. And I just got in the car and went and knocked on his door then, you know, and he's like, what are you doing here? I came to see you, dude. Yeah, I see that. Okay. You know, you talk to an old friend, it's no time has passed. And that's what we always say. It's like, oh, my God. It was, I guess, that we picked up exactly at that spot. Aristotle, we're going back to the Greek. You talked about the three layers of friendship. There are these situational friendships that we meet during work and overwork and through work. And when the work ends, that relationship fades. And then there are friends we have dinner with or go to a ball game with, and they're situational friendships, and they're lovely. And then there are the. What he would call perfect friends that make us better people. We see their inherent good, and they see ours. The first two types of friends can become the third, but not always the case. But those perfect friends reflect goodwill to each other. A lot of the young people I met. I said, what's the most important ingredient in friendship to them? And they said, loyalty. Being able to trust you, not talking behind your back. That was the younger man's answer. As we get older, it becomes different things. For me, I think the most important notion in friendship was and a sense of safety. And so I think those kind of true perfect friends, as Aristotle called them, are rare. And if we have a couple of those in our life, that's fantastic, and they're worth nurturing. A lot of our friendships can wither and change, but I think there are a few that are worth, like, you know what? Get in the car. And now I'm going to go see you. I'm going to come see you, dude. I'm two days out. And then he drops everything for three days and we hang. And even when they couldn't, it's like, all right, you go to work. I'll meet you for dinner. I'll wander around Dallas. Really valuable.

[A]

Did any of these men share grievances with you that you weren't there for them during certain times, or were there any confrontations that made the friendship better?

[B]

I went to my friend in Matthew in Kentucky, and he was talking about, we're trying to figure out when the last time we saw each other was. And he said, not since I've been here. And I've been here 14 years. And then I had my heart attack. And I'm like, you had a heart attack? How did I not know you had a heart attack? Because you were being like a selfish asshole and weren't around. And I was like, oh, yeah, that's why. And he goes, but you're here now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, it's a long and perfect

[A]

road, but, God, you're here now is the best case scenario I could hope for. I think maybe with women, it's different because they want to get a little deeper. Like, this hurt me. Why? Where were you?

[B]

That was a wound that was probably, you know, 12, 13 years old and beyond. Women are better at the. Guys will just not go to that confrontation often. You know what we say, Guys are these strong, want to be these strong things. Guys are often wussies and don't want to have that confrontation with each other. So they'll just sort of end it. They'll just not deal and let it fade. Very rarely will go. You know what that was? I talked about it in the book. There was this one friend I had. He was, you know, a work friend. And I thought we became closer friends. And he asked me to do something. Then he asked me not to do it. And it's like he just sort of lied to me and gave me a bait and switch about work. And I was like, what? Instead of talking about it, we let it go and the friendship ended. I haven't talked to him in years and years. Had I said, hey, hey, wait a minute. You offered that to me and now you're not. And then he could have said, well, because I can't get it paid for if you do it and I get it paid for if this guy does it. Okay, you know, I could have known how difficult it is to be a producer and how hard it is to get something done. He also could have known, oh, this is going to really upset you, but I got to tell you this. Instead we just sort of glossed around it and didn't deal and the relationship ended over. And had we just spent five minutes and taking a deep breath and go, dude, you're going to get really upset right now. I'm not doing this with you. I can't afford it. I got to do with this person. You know, the relationship would have had some distance, maybe for a while, time to recover, but we'd still be friends. Was the relationship even of that deeper value like we were talking about Aristotle before? Was it in that third category of my perfect friends, or was it just transactional? I thought it was a closer friendship. Maybe he just thought it was a business acquaintance. Maybe he thought it was one kind of friendship. I experienced it as another. You know, I do think women are better often at that. I think all of us could afford to take a deep breath. You know what? I'm gonna upset you right now, but this isn't gonna happen.

[A]

What does happen when somebody misunderstands a friendship? And how long do you actually think it takes to discover that somebody is a transactional friend versus a real friend of Depp?

[B]

Well, I think, you know, it doesn't take us too many times to get burned before we get a spidey sense up. Except for you, apparently. You seem to just go open hearted into everything. God bless you guys. Tend to be once burned, twice shy or whatever that saying is. But that's the challenge of life, isn't it? Male, female, for all of us to just sort of go back into the fray again and try and be open hearted and be successful. Because the other answer is being closed off. Isolated, lonely, and eventually then angry and resentful.

[A]

You say friendship saved me, but only when I showed up. What does showing up look like in the smallest Most practical sense.

[B]

Well, physically showing up, knocking on the door and in the other sense and calling up my friend. Did you go to the doctor yesterday? Oh, yeah, I did. Thanks for calling. Yeah, I got the. You know, because we're all self obsessed in our own little things and consistency is the name of the game. Me showing up once to my friends out of after 20 years is not really anything. It's the ongoing thing. I've gone to see my friend in Baltimore a dozen more times since then. Consistency is everything, isn't it?

[A]

Any plans to road trip again?

[B]

Well, we keep saying it, but nobody does anything about it.

[A]

After driving across America, what is one thing you hope men and those of us that love men, take away from

[B]

this book, women tend to be a little better. That connection is everything. Take the chance, you know, this notion that we're waiting for, who's gonna do it? No one else is gonna do it. Yeah, it's our life. I want to see my friends. I'm going to go see him. You know what I mean? It's simple. Once you start that kind of action, it becomes very simple. It's self perpetuating and propulsive. At one point I was hiking in the Grand Canyon when I was processing all that had been told to me along the way and I came away thinking, this is just a lot easier than I've made it out to be. These two guys in Austin said, friendship is not dramatic. Friendship is just normal. Somehow I'd gotten out of that normalcy. Starting it up again is a very normal thing to do. It is a bit like riding a bike, you know, you just show up, you start talking and then stuff happens. Your relationship is there, I think. Just take the action always.

[A]

Andrew, I want to thank you for joining me on Self Conscious. That was so enlightening and beautiful and thank you for being a man the world needs.

[B]

Thanks for having me. It's good to talk to you,

[A]

Andrew. I want to thank you for joining me today on self conscious. Andrew McCarthy's who needs friends is available on Audible. Until then, tune in, turn on and feel better. This is Chrissy Teigen and you've been listening to Self Conscious, an Audible original podcast. This has been an Audible original produced by Audible, Q Code and Huntley Productions, hosted by Chrissy Teigen, written and executive produced by Jimmy Jelinek, executive producers for Q Code, Shen Yun Hu and Alexa Gabrielle Ramirez, executive producer for Huntley Productions, Chrissy Teigen, executive producers for Audible, Andy Beckerman and Stacy Creamer, Recorded and engineered by Ben Milchev, filmed by Bridger Clements Production Coordinator Brian Coulter Edited, mixed and mastered by Ben Milchev Head of Creative Development at Audible Kate Navin Chief Content Officer Rachel Giazza Copyright 2024 by Audible Originals, LLC. Sound Recording Copyright 2025 by Audible Original.