Dr. Jessica Zucker: Pregnancy Loss, Postpartum Grief and How to Ask for Help

Summary

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Self-Conscious with Chrissy Teigen

Episode: Dr. Jessica Zucker – Pregnancy Loss, Postpartum Grief and How to Ask for Help

Air Date: January 22, 2026
Guest: Dr. Jessica Zucker, Clinical Psychologist & Author of Normalize It
Host: Chrissy Teigen

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Episode Overview

This poignant episode of Self-Conscious delves deep into the complexities of pregnancy loss, shame, grief, and the power of honest conversation, especially for women navigating motherhood. Chrissy Teigen and Dr. Jessica Zucker share personal stories and professional expertise, exploring how silence breeds shame, how societal messages fail women, and practical strategies to support oneself and others during times of loss and postpartum challenges. Listeners will find both validation of their emotions and actionable tools to begin processing and healing, as well as guidance for partners and friends.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Consequences of Silence and Stigma

[02:20 – 04:48]

• Dr. Zucker explains how silence around taboo topics (pregnancy loss, shame, grief) reinforces stigma and breeds isolation.
  • “Culture seems to benefit from our silence, and then the stigma makes us feel caught in ourselves, thinking, can I say this out loud?” (Zucker, 02:34)
• The compounding effects of shame can manifest as anxiety, depression, addiction, and low self-esteem.
• Importance of integrating real discussions around reproductive health into sex ed from girlhood, to prevent later-life shame and self-blame.

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2. Myths and Misinformation Around Fertility

[05:17 – 06:38]

• Chrissy reflects on being taught pregnancy is “easy” to come by, leading to surprise and distress during struggles with infertility or IVF.
  • “All you hear about is, if you have sex, you will get pregnant. And... it’s so shocking... that they can’t just have sex and get pregnant.” (Chrissy, 05:50)
• Women, unlike men, internalize blame for fertility struggles, with self-critical thoughts about past decisions.

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3. Small Acts to Challenge Shame and Normalize Feelings

[06:43 – 08:23]

• Dr. Zucker advocates modeling emotional openness for both girls and boys—demonstrating it’s acceptable to experience and express the full spectrum of emotions.
• Social media can help, but true change comes from lived, everyday vulnerability and honesty.

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4. The Realities of Pregnancy Loss—Personal Accounts

[08:23 – 17:37]

• Chrissy shares her own experience of pregnancy loss, confusion around terminology ("miscarriage" vs. "abortion"), and the trauma of public scrutiny.
  • “I did not know what was happening. I was completely ignorant to the correct language, what to say.” (Chrissy, 10:13)
• Dr. Zucker recounts her own 16-week miscarriage, performed at home, and subsequent trauma, despite her professional expertise.
  • “I had been sitting for years across from women... Now I was blindsided. We don’t think that we will become a statistic.” (Zucker, 16:15)
• Both discuss the desire for more supportive, “soft” experiences in the hospital and feelings of regret or uncertainty regarding time spent with the baby or mementos.

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5. Grieving in Real Time—Physical and Emotional Aftershocks

[14:24 – 18:49]

• Chrissy describes panic attacks upon returning to a medical setting, realizing how trauma can be involuntary and physical.
  • “I lost my mind in the elevator... panic attacking so bad.” (Chrissy, 14:24)
• Dr. Zucker admits moving on too quickly after loss due to pressure to try again, resulting in compounded anxiety in subsequent pregnancy.

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6. Postpartum Depression & Anxiety—Breaking Misconceptions

[19:50 – 23:31]

• Both women discuss the underrecognized realities of postpartum depression and anxiety, which often manifest later than expected and don’t fit stereotypes.
• Chrissy: “It took four months to, like, even show itself. And I thought by then, if you had postpartum you should be over it. But I had no idea it could come so late.” (Chrissy, 21:48)
• Dr. Zucker notes the need to consider unresolved childhood grief and generational trauma in postpartum struggles, alongside hormones.

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7. Support Systems—Partners, Friends, and What Not to Say

[23:31 – 27:13]

• Partners should “take the emotional temperature” of new mothers, research postpartum conditions, and check in genuinely.
• Well-meaning but harmful phrases to avoid: "God has a plan," "Everything happens for a reason," or any statement starting with “At least…”
  • “Friendships dissipate with these kinds of words. Relationships crack because people do not need to hear these pithy, clichéd platitudes.” (Zucker, 26:19)
• Offer presence and listening, not solutions.

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8. Couples & Shared Grief—Navigating Differences

[29:04 – 32:20]

• Trauma can distance partners; men may try to “protect” by focusing on logistics, avoiding emotional depth.
• Dr. Zucker encourages both partners to voice their own feelings, not just cater to the mother's; otherwise, relationships may unravel.

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9. Talking to Children About Loss

[32:48 – 35:45]

• Chrissy recounts unconventional ways of keeping her lost child’s memory alive for her children—taking ashes on tour—while also describing the shame and pain of losing the ashes.
  • “I lost. I literally lost the baby. This is so stupid. But I've only kind of, like, talked about it with like… the shame, I lost.” (Chrissy, 35:48)

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10. Moving Through Shame—The “UPEND” Technique

[40:28 – 42:50]

• Dr. Zucker introduces her “UPEND” process for unraveling grief and shame:
  • Understanding: Sink into your feelings, name your grief.
  • Prepare: Write your story, get ready to share.
  • Evaluate: Reflect on feelings after sharing; how does grief inform you?
  • Normalize: Integrate grief, treat it with self-compassion.
  • Dedicate: Commit to ongoing self-integration.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On shame and honesty:
  • “Shame cannot survive being spoken aloud. The thing about shame is that it eats away at you from the inside.”
    (Chrissy, 01:00)
• On language and loss:
  • “The politicization of terminating for medical reasons does leave a lot of people saying they had a miscarriage because they want to protect themselves in this world.”
    (Zucker, 10:01)
• On support:
  • “All we need is to feel the presence of our loved one... You can text, ‘I love you. I'm here for you.’ ...It's a reiteration of being consistent, psychologically available, emotionally sound, and not trying to fix or minimize or focus on something else.”
    (Zucker, 27:20)
• Chrissy on losing ashes:
  • “I don't know what could give you more shame than losing my baby. And I didn't even, like, take him out that much. And still just the not knowing... is so frustrating.”
    (Chrissy, 34:53)
• On the essence of grief:
  • “Leaning into our pain sometimes helps it dissipate.”
    (Zucker, 37:23)

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Important Timestamps

• [02:20] – Dr. Zucker defines “normalizing it” and the roots of silence → shame
• [05:17] – Chrissy discusses societal myths around fertility
• [08:48] – Chrissy opens up about her loss and public scrutiny
• [09:23] – Chrissy and Dr. Zucker unpack use of “miscarriage” vs. “abortion” and language confusion
• [13:02] – Dr. Zucker details practical options for honoring a lost pregnancy
• [15:50] – Dr. Zucker recounts her own miscarriage experience
• [19:50] – Exploring postpartum depression and anxiety symptoms
• [25:42] – What not to say to someone after pregnancy loss
• [29:04] – How partners react and process loss
• [32:48] – Chrissy reflects on talking to her children and the story of the lost ashes
• [40:28] – Dr. Zucker introduces the “UPEND” framework for addressing shame

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Practical Takeaways

• Sharing your story, even imperfectly, is healing for both self and others.
• Partners and friends should focus on presence and active listening, not platitudes.
• Grief is non-linear—may impact new parenthood even after a “successful” pregnancy.
• The UPEND technique is a stepwise, gentle approach to grieving and integrating loss.
• There’s no “right” timetable or way to grieve; self-compassion is essential.

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For more on Dr. Jessica Zucker’s work, her Audible Original “Normalize It” is available now.

Transcript

[A]

You're listening to Self Conscious with Chrissy Teigen, an Audible original podcast. Join me as we explore the cutting edge of health, wellness, and personal growth with the world's leading experts and thinkers. From inspiring stories to actionable insights, our conversations aim to help you lead a healthier, happier, and more productive life. Okay, let's talk about the stuff we don't talk about. The moments you're supposed to smile but secretly feel like you're falling apart. The parts of being a woman that are messy and complicated and, yeah, taboo. My guest today says that silence is actually making us sick. Dr. Jessica Zucker is a clinical psychologist who spent two decades helping women talk about all the hardest things. Body image, pregnancy, loss, shame, grief, pleasure. All of it. Her book, Normalize it, is basically a permission slip to tell the truth about our lives. Because, let's be honest, most of us have been taught to shrink. Be ambitious, but not too ambitious. Be confident, but not cocky. Love your body, but maybe just a little less when it changes. And somewhere in there, we lose the sound of our own voice. Dr. Zucker's mission is to help us get that voice back. She believes that when we name what hurts out loud, we don't just heal ourselves, we make space for other people. People to heal, too. So today we're talking about courage to speak up, the power of saying this happened. And what can shift when we stop pretending we're fine and actually start being honest. Dr. Jessica Zucker, welcome to Self Conscious. Welcome to my home. Thank you for being here. We're gonna talk. Normalize it. Which? One thing that really stood out for me is that shame cannot survive being spoken aloud. The thing about shame is that it eats away at you from the inside. It's lonely and it's so isolating. Obviously, what does normalizing it actually mean to you? And what happens when we all start talking?

[B]

Essentially, my aim with this book, normalize it. Upending the silence, stigma, and shame that shape women's lives is to sort of turn it all on its head. The silence that begets the stigma that begets the shame. And then it just continues to swirl. So culture seems to benefit from our silence, and then the stigma makes us feel caught in ourselves, thinking, can I say this out loud? It's cultural and it's personal stigma. Is this something I should share with the world, or is this something that I should feel ashamed of? So it's like the silence does become shame eventually if we don't do something about it. And as a psychologist who specializes in women's reproductive and Maternal mental health. I'm most concerned about the shame. Shame morphs into so many other types of behaviors. Anxiety, depression, addiction, self esteem issues, and this sense that you're hiding. So how do we begin to break this apart? I would say we have to go all the way back to girlhood and integrate into sex education. For example, talking about pregnancy loss, just to normalize it, that it is a possibility. I understand that sex education is primarily to scare kids so that they don't get pregnant. But if they were to sort of pepper in, in a very gentle, age appropriate way that some people don't get pregnant or some people get pregnant and lose pregnancies, we wouldn't end up with a culture of shame and self blame and guilt in the aftermath of loss. And if one in four pregnancies results in miscarriage, we kind of need that to happen. Miscarriage is one example. But even when girls get their periods, why are they feeling gross or ashamed or hush, hush, and being taught, oh, you should just put a smile on your face no matter how you're feeling. So throughout the lifespan and then, you know, we could get into perimenopause and menopause. Same thing.

[A]

I do feel like that is finally being talked about, which I'm so happy to be. So many books, you know, going to be entering that phase with people like Halle Berry Champion.

[B]

Yes, exactly. Now there's great information now, but what about our mothers? You know, what did they do, who did they turn to?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I think ideally information and sharing what we're going through helps to put an end to this sort of overriding shame.

[A]

I remember in school the talk was around like how easy it was to get pregnant and if you had sex you were going to get pregnant. Yeah. So now I'm 40 years old, I have friends that are my age, a little bit younger that are really struggling and doing IVF and not getting the amount of eggs that they would have hoped for or not being able to create enough embryos. And like they are shocked that it would be this hard to get pregnant because all you hear about is like, if you have sex, you will get pregnant. And I said that's what was school, you know?

[B]

Yep.

[A]

It is like so shocking to people many years later that they can't just have sex and get pregnant.

[B]

Right. And then they're blaming themselves though, because they didn't hear about it. So they're like, oh, it must be me. Maybe I want to be a mother too badly. Maybe I don't want to be a mother badly enough. Maybe it was the sex I had in my 20s. Unprotected.

[A]

Yeah. I know people. People that think that, like, I had an abortion at 18 and I wonder if that's affecting my fertility now or it's. Yes, Every thought under the sun.

[B]

I know, but the thing is, I don't think men do this to themselves.

[A]

No. John was never, ever, like, maybe it's my sperm count or the coffee I.

[B]

Had or the wine that I drank.

[A]

Or, you know, wearing briefs instead of boxers.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

No. Doesn't cross their mind at all. Meanwhile, we're spiraling out of control.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Yeah. When you say culture teaches girls and women to just shove things down, what does that look like in everyday life? And what's the first small way to push back?

[B]

I think the first small way to push back and change the narrative is with our girls and with our boys, honestly. So I think if we can model for them that it is okay to feel the spectrum of feelings, whatever they are, and then talk about it. They need to see that we are capable of reflection, that we can hold whatever it is they're going through and that we ourselves are telling the truth of our lives. You know, because we can shout, normalize it from rooftops, but unless we're actually doing it, our daughters aren't going to believe us. Future generations aren't going to do it. People take to social media and say things that way, and I think that can be really incredible. Incredible, powerful and game changing. But unless you're doing the work, it may not be sustainable. 100% of my patients are women and we are sitting together talking about pregnancy and pregnancy loss and navigating pregnancy after loss, perinatal and postpartum mood and anxiety disorders. So it's like that's what I'm hearing over and over again. And some people come in as a couple and then the partner usually doesn't stay. Our culture has made it more acceptable for women to be talking about these things, even though there's miles to go.

[A]

So you speak to women after loss like it's like a program. Like, I just saw my same old therapist after everything.

[B]

And so how did that go? Because I think that's interesting because if somebody's not trained in pregnancy loss, it's always interesting to see.

[A]

I didn't know that there were specific people that you could go to after, which is like, that's why I love doing this.

[B]

So your loss was five years ago now, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But your willingness to be open about it changed millions of women's lives. But that was A profoundly dark time, I imagine.

[A]

Yeah. And it took me years to even understand what happened. And even now, like, I will write my doctor and be like, hey, I have to talk about the pregnancy loss today. Like, can you explain what happened? Again, there was a lot of drama in my life, a lot of public scrutiny, and, like, so it all became entangled. I just counted as the hardest time in my life.

[B]

So do you think of your loss as a miscarriage?

[A]

Well, I thought it was a miscarriage. I didn't really know any terminology. And not a lot of the right terms were being used around me. So it wasn't until years after, when we were talking about Roe v. Wade, I realized I had had an abortion. I couldn't even tell you what it's called.

[B]

Terminating for medical reasons.

[A]

Yeah. So.

[B]

Yeah. Because I think it was the day after your loss, I was swarmed with about you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And everybody was calling it a miscarriage.

[A]

Yeah. Because I had called it a miscarriage. And then even now, I still get shit for it. They're like, you lied about your miscarriage and you had an abortion. I was like, no. Truthfully, I did not know what was happening.

[B]

I mean, the politicization of terminating for medical reasons does leave a lot of people saying they had a miscarriage because they want to protect themselves in this world, which is totally understandable.

[A]

I was completely ignorant to the correct language what to say. And it wasn't until John, that I had had an abortion, where I was like, I guess that's right, because I was getting blood transfusions, but the baby wasn't gone when I was in the hospital. And so, like, slowly putting those things together, which is so crazy because it's your body. And I have, like, the greatest doctors. And so that was frustrating for me that, like, I was so ignorant to the process and what was happening. Do you ever speak with people where they know they're going to lose their baby or have to make this choice? Cause sometimes I wish that I had made certain changes or choices.

[B]

What do you wish? What do you wish was different?

[A]

Oh, I was really scared to look at his face. Cause I thought it might be, like, in my nightmares. And then I was like, oh, my God, they're not even in my dreams now. And that kind of made me sad. Yes. I didn't know if it was appropriate to hold him.

[B]

But you did get to, right?

[A]

I did.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I'm such a people pleaser. I don't want to, like, step on anybody's toes or waste anybody's time ever. So I could have laid there for days holding him, I'm sure. But yeah, it was just really quick. My mom was there and we passed him around and gave him kisses and stuff and I looked at his feet. I wish there was more softness instead of such a bawling sadness. My mom, I can still remember, like her cries. She had her face in his tiny little blanket and she was just soaking wet with her tears and I was watching her and it could have been a lot softer.

[B]

Yeah. I think that the trauma is so unimaginable and time isn't its usual pace. When you're going through something like that and you want there to be a pause button so you can actually have an intimate moment. Because here it is a life you expected that's ended and then you're expected to go back to your regular life.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is just not something that we can integrate that quickly.

[A]

Yeah. So what are some things people can prepare for or know there's an option for when they do know they're going to go in and experience this insane form of loss? Yeah.

[B]

I mean, it's a difficult question because it's so individual. It takes a village to inform the person of their choices. Because just like you said in the hospital setting, things are moving so quickly and people aren't necessari psychologically minded and really trying to help you know what you need. So if somebody has it in them to do the research, they can be then aware of the fact that, yes, you can have time with the baby, you can wash the baby. Some people bring clothing to put the baby in.

[A]

I remember they gave us a box of. From women that had knitted little things for the. This exact scenario. And I just remember being like, oh, oh my God.

[B]

I know it's heartbreaking, but it is so important that there is this acknowledged next step. And so if we can leave the hospital with a lock of hair or a handprint or a footprint. But, you know, I do have patients who, and I understand how hard it must be to make that decision in the moment. Do I want to see the baby or do I not? The thing is, with my patients who have opted not to, there tends to be feelings of regret.

[A]

Is there anyone that regretted looking?

[B]

I think people regret looking for the very reason you said, like the fear that they're going to not be able to sort of move that image from their mind in the night or all day long.

[A]

Yeah. I don't know what would have been.

[B]

The right decision, but it's like there is something very important about this Coming together. I mean, this person was growing inside of you. Like, this is months of a forming relationship, and then this end. That's unimaginable. So I do think again, this face to face moment seems really important, but it's hard to live with that.

[A]

Yeah, I can tell I didn't do it the right way because weeks later, when I had to go in to put an iud, and it was kind of my first time out of the house, I lost my mind in the elevator on the way up, and I woke up, they were putting a laughing gas. I was panic attacking so bad and woke up in my obs office and just staring and freaking and kicking and freaking out. And that's kind of the first time that I realized, oh, my gosh. I was very, like, triggered by being in, like, a medical environment again.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And I'm not like a triggered type of person. Like, I can usually, like, push through things or just, like, I'm very realistic when it comes to stuff like, yes, this happened. Yes, you're gonna go get an IUD in. And then it just. Boom.

[B]

Yeah, that's the thing. It's like, beyond the mind. It's a visceral feeling. I mean, I was tempted to switch ob GYN offices also because the thought of going back to where I went through, what I went through was just despicable. Like, why would I do this to myself? So actually, a lot of people that I work with do, even if they love their doctor, they just don't want to be back in that waiting room. The trauma is still very much alive, it sounds like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Do you feel like you were able to take time to grieve? I mean, I know in my own situation, I had a 16 week miscarriage while I was home by myself.

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[B]

I was instructed by phone, by my ob GYN how to cut the umbilical cord.

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[B]

And then began to hemorrhage. It was. It was horrifying.

[A]

Oh, that's traumatizing. Holy.

[B]

And then my husband brought the fetus in a bag to be tested to my doctor's office. And then I ended up undergoing an unmedicated DNC to make matters that much more horrendous.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I was blinded by my loss. And I had been sitting for years across from women and families talking about their own losses. And I had read all the research and thought I knew all the things and have the PhD and whatever. Now I was blindsided. We don't think that we will become a statistic. I mean, that's just sort of human nature, I think. And the denial that we need to navigate the world. I look back and I did not give myself enough time to grieve because age was not on my side. My doctor said to wait three cycles to try again. And so I got pregnant straight away after that, and I moved right along. Yeah. But I didn't take a deep breath through that next pregnancy. Like, literally, I feel like I held my breath for nine, ten months in my imagination. Okay, so my healthy daughter will be born. That was the hope. I wasn't convinced until she was actually here, but I realized my anxiety was way too high. Because what I pictured was, like, she would start screaming, she'd come out and all of my grief.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And like, all of the anxiety would just ooze out and be done. Absolutely not. And I think it's because I didn't take the time to grieve and acknowledge the intensity of what I had lived through.

[A]

I definitely didn't. Because I know now that we have this big memory box, a big trunk downstairs. And it has everything from kids report cards to the blankets to the little hats they are sent home in. And then. And of course the baby box with the handprints and the. And I know I haven't opened it once since. And I know that if I were to like, touch it and hold it now, it would be a big. A big deal, a big moment. But, yeah, we just kind of moseyed right along because life doesn't stop and you just keep going. And you keep going.

[B]

Yeah. Unfortunately, it was hard for me to reflect on that and admit it because I just kept hoping time would make it go away. It's sort of ironic given what I do for work. Right. So I'm telling people, take your emotional temperature and look out for the baby blues. And if they don't go away, we need to act on it. But because I was in it, I kept hoping that time would steal it away. I wasn't hovering over her crib during nap times. It didn't manifest that way for me. But I just.

[A]

Holding a mirror underneath her nose.

[B]

I didn't do that, you know, But I just. Just I felt physically different. Kind of a jumpiness, a certain level of fragility and porousness that was incredibly uncomfortable. On my drive to my office, I take Mulholland to get to cold water. And I was like, wait, there are no guardrails? I mean, which was kind of a metaphor for life in general. But it was the first time it dawned on me that, like, wait, what if I slid off the road? Not because, of course, like, this isn't something I wanted to have happen, but I was too aware of the fragility of being human. I had hoped that giving birth. And she was my second healthy child, so I already had a son and knew that parenthood is wonderful. But because I hadn't processed my loss, it was alive in my parenting of her.

[A]

Man, I wonder if mine would die down if I did go through those emotions.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't know if you had postpartum anxiety or postpartum depression.

[B]

It's interesting. I never called it postpartum anxiety in my first book. I flirt with the idea and I, you know.

[A]

Cause that's a relatively new term. Right.

[B]

That's talked about anyway.

[A]

Yeah, that's spoken about.

[B]

Yeah. I think like in the movies, it's sort of like they paint postpartum depression like, oh, the woman can't get out of bed.

[A]

But, oh, I talk about this all the time. I grew up with Susan Smith in the news, and, like, I thought postpartum depression meant you wanted to kill your baby.

[B]

Exactly. So that's the thing with anxiety. It can be that you are just quick to anger or your tolerance is very different than it normally would be. And depression can be an agitated depression, too. I do think they're like thunder and lightning. They sort of go together. And so in my first book, I talk about flirting with the idea of getting real help. I was already in therapy myself, but I was talk openly about, do I go on medication or do I not? And because this is yet another incredibly stigmatized topic, can we as mothers ask for help and get it? And then I had to factor in the fact that I wanted to keep breastfeeding. And so my anxiety went circular and circular, round and round, which led me to not get help for way too long. Right. Because it was like, well, what if the medication helps me but isn't good for the baby? How am I gonna feel about that? What if, what if, what if? You know? And that's what anxiety does to us. Eventually I got her off the boob, I got on medication, and things quieted down.

[A]

So much about my postpartum depression was that I didn't have the baby and, like, become sad.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I loved being pregnant and I loved her so much. She was my little girl. It was just the two of us and John, of course, but I had no thoughts of ever harming her. It took four months to, like, even show itself. And I thought by then, if you had postpartum you should be over it. But I had no idea that it could come so late.

[B]

Yes, it can come at any time in the first year after giving birth. And it can sort of. Because you think my hormones are getting back to normal. I'm figuring out this mom thing.

[A]

Since I was so happy being pregnant, I was like, oh, this just is probably normal because all those endorphins and hormones are now gone. And now I'm just left at this baseline of just sadness. And that's just the way it is.

[B]

Wait, this was before your loss? This was in your first pregnancy?

[A]

Yeah, this is my first pregnancy. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, sometimes it can be, you know, so many different things, but I think that grief unacknowledged from our childhoods can really come to the fore when we become mothers ourselves. And that's a lot of what I talk about with my patients. I mean, obviously we talk about the hormones and if they want to consider turning to medication for help with postpartum related stuff. But also we dig deeper, like suddenly becoming a mother and having some unresolved stuff from your own childhood with your mother, your father, how you were parented, suddenly you're in this important role. Even if you've wanted it your whole life, and even if you think you're going to be great at it, you still realize that the playbook you thought your parents should have was empty.

[A]

For partners out there that see their partner displaying signs of postpartum depression or postpartum anxiety, what's the best way for them to go about addressing it?

[B]

Well, I think a good start is doing a little bit of research, because I think partners can be so deluged by becoming a parent themselves. And they might even begin to deny that it's happening as well, just by thinking like, oh, this is sleep deprivation. Oh, we just need to get fresh air. Maybe she needs to go exercise, whatever. And a quick Google search about what is postpartum depression? What do the baby blues look like? We'll tell that person, like, after a certain period, you need to get help opening up that conversation. Of course, it really depends on the openness within the marriage. But just saying, like, how are you doing? Taking their emotional temperature and being aware of their own as well. And I think being able to talk about that openly can make all the difference. I've had a lot of partners call me to schedule an appointment on their wife's behalf. And so if people are up for therapy and open to it and are living in a place where somebody specializes in it and can afford It. I think that can be an important next step. But also checking in. It can be with your OB gyn, It could even be with the pediatrician. But I think, you know, your partner is living with you, so they're the person that would know probably the most. But I have had a lot of patients tell me I was great at fooling my husband because I would shower every day and get myself put together to seem like I. I think that when people have worked really hard to get pregnant, and even if they haven't, they are that much more surprised by feelings of depression or anxiety.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And if they've gone through IVF or if they've had a loss and now they have this healthy child, they're like, wait, what am I complaining about? Or why would I feel badly? It's not linear. Because of grief. We can exhale once we have what we thought we wanted. And that's when all the feelings come.

[A]

There were some scenarios with friends that seemed unfathomable to me. Stillborns, they were so close to being full term. When I wrote the letters, I just remember being like, I'm so sorry. There are no words. What can you say?

[B]

What can you say? Well, here I'm going to turn this around and tell people what I think people should not say.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because that is often spilling out of people's mouths at the most inopportune times are the consciousness.

[A]

They mean well, but it's a little.

[B]

They do mean well. Yeah, but if we have a sense of somebody's religious background or spiritual beliefs, maybe you can say something like this. But unless we know that to be true, I think we need to be careful about saying things like, God has a plan. Everything happens for a reason. God doesn't give you more than you can handle. How can you say to somebody who just had a stillbirth or infant loss? God doesn't give you more than you can handle. What does that even mean? And how is somebody supposed to digest that? Friendships dissipate with these kinds of words. Relationships crack because people do not need to hear these pithy, cliched platitudes. Oh, and we also don't want to start sentences with at least. At least you have healthy children. At least you know you can get pregnant. Least you're young.

[A]

No. Yes. Yes.

[B]

Steer clear of at least. It doesn't do any good. But here's what we can do. All we need is to feel the presence of our loved one. You can text, I love you. I'm here for you. You can also say, I Have no idea what to say in this situation because I haven't been in it.

[A]

That's what I felt comfortable saying.

[B]

So I'm gonna probably, like, stick my foot in my mouth. I might say the wrong thing, But I love you. I'm here for you no matter what. What if and when you want to talk about this, I'm here. So it's a reiteration of being consistent, psychologically available, emotionally sound, and not trying to fix or minimize or focus on something else. We don't need to do that. And the fear around talking about grief, we actually need to lean into grief or it envelops us. The more we embrace it, the sooner we make our way through it. And so we need friends and loved ones to show us they can do that with us. And most people don't want to, understandably, because I think when I was diagnosed with breast cancer, everybody was like, you're a warrior. You're gonna beat this. You're amazing, whatever. And I just sat there thinking, okay, so what if I don't? Yeah, does that mean I didn't try hard enough? I wasn't warrior enough? Like, I'm not up on a horse with a sword, whatever. So I think these well meaning things people say are a form of unconsciously trying to ward off the pain and the uncomfortability of being with somebody in their darkest season. The greatest friends are those who actually just say, I'm gonna be with you throughout whatever happens.

[A]

For partners who are often overlooked, what are the common missteps after loss and what helps couples stay connected when grief shows up differently?

[B]

In my first book, I try to be as transparent as I can be in terms of what happened in the aftermath of my loss in my relationship, I felt pretty far flung. I would just say to him, what is happening right now for you? When I was diagnosed with breast cancer, we had to revisit this as well. It was another trauma that gave us the opportunity, like, are we gonna do this together or are you gonna, like, go do your version of grief and processing your feelings? And I'm gonna be over here, like, handling it all. And it turns out that he thought he could lose me that day because I was hemorrhaging. Like, when he came home, I mean, he saw me pouring blood alone. The fetus is on, you know, the bathtub. It was outrageous. And so I think he was really leaning into, like, the doctor says, you're gonna be okay, and this doesn't mean that we can't have another child. I think it was too vulnerable. And scary for him to sink into the depths of his feelings. Maybe layered into this is the fact that his mom had an infant loss a year to the day that he and his twin brother were born. So her daughter was born with spina bifida, and she didn't come home from the hospital.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

She was grateful to have two babies at once and was probably so fearful to lose them. This could have been sort of baked into the way he was raised and didn't want to fall into despair with me. When I sit with couples, oftentimes the woman comes in by herself. The couple comes in together, but the partner leaves.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And not leaves the relationship, but just leaves the therapy. They're like, oh, I want her to be okay. I'm concerned about her grief. And what I try to say to the partner, Men and women, we can't bypass your feelings. I get it. She physically was pregnant. Now she's not. Her milk is coming in. She's bleeding. The hormones are insane. You have feelings too. Right. And so I really try to help that person understand it is a bypassing of their feelings to just focus on the person who was pregnant. This was their potential baby as well. And just the change of life, we start to imagine a family and the changes in it when we are pregnant.

[A]

It's hard, I guess. They have to feel like they have to be the protector. Obviously, this happened more so to the woman, but there must be a lot of giving permission for them to feel sad.

[B]

But, like, what is a protector?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In an ideal world, for me, a protector would have a conversation like this. Like, who would want to emotionally get into it? I don't think we need that kind of protecting of, like, I'm gonna go hunt and gather.

[A]

Like.

[B]

Like, we're ordering from postmates. So you don't really have to do much, you know? So it's like, protecting should be more emotionally driven so that we can stay in a relationship. Because I do think that's why we see a lot of relationships ending.

[A]

Yeah. I think with John, because we had other children, we had to, like, keep that ship moving. And I wasn't driving at that time. So, like, I think about it in that way.

[B]

So how did you talk to your children after your loss? How did you explain what happened?

[A]

I have no recollection of a conversation happening. I'm sure it happened. I'm almost positive it happened. I don't know if maybe John did it or my mom. And I know I would have been really good at having that conversation. I'm really good about the quieter, soft, like, deeper moments that I have with my kids. And very thoughtful about the way I do it. I have no recollection of this conversation happening.

[B]

Well, you know, this might sound a little far afield, but it's never too late.

[A]

Yeah, I do know that now. Oh, this is terrible. But I do remember having gone on tour with John, and I would bring his ashes, and for about a month in August, the whole family went on tour. So, like, my kids were always, jack, we're going to Egypt. Jack, we're going to this, that. And I remember this happening in my life. And we would just talk about him or say hi to him if we saw him in the clouds or something. And they were always okay with that. But then when we had returned back from tour, the last stop was Egypt. He was just gone. Could not find the bag, the little box. Oh. And I don't talk about that, obviously, because it's like, that's some shame. I lost. I literally lost the baby. This is so stupid. But I've only kind of, like, talked about it with, like. And I've honestly never had a good experience with a psychic or a medium. And I really don't believed too much in it, but she asked me, like, for a big point of grief in my life, and it had just happened. So I was like, I literally lost my baby. I lost him. His physical ashes, his presence. And the only thing that made me feel better was. And the only time a medium or a psychic has ever, like, really made an impact on me was her simply saying that was nothing. Yes, that was his physical body, his ashes. But he's everywhere. He's in the air. You're talking to him in the sky. He's this, that. And I think I really needed to hear that because, like, you can tell now. Yeah, I don't even think about it very much. It almost became a funny joke because we're like, of course that happened. With all the bad stuff that could happen in this situation, I don't know what could give you more shame than losing my baby. And I didn't even, like, take him out that much. And still just the not knowing of everything is so frustrating. Like, I don't know where he is. Yeah. So that's frustrating. But.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So I haven't dealt with that too. And I don't really. I honestly don't really think about it very much. Yeah.

[B]

I mean. Cause I can understand why it's a lot. Oh, my God.

[A]

I lost him.

[B]

So in terms of what you just shared, and you said that you have shame around literally losing him, as you put it. I'm wondering if perhaps here, right now, we can help unearth some of that shame through giving voice to it. Because you haven't talked a lot about it. Maybe by replacing silence with storytelling, we smash the stigma and move the shame along.

[A]

I didn't even have shame, like around losing the baby in the way that I do for this.

[B]

So you knew that losing the baby was not your fault.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But you know that a majority of women actually blame themselves in the aftermath of loss. I mean, it's befuddling to me and incredibly disheartening to think that if 1 in 4 pregnancies ends in miscarriage and about 1 in 160 in stillbirth. I know. And so people feel a sense of shame, guilt, and self blame and even body hatred. So I'm happy and relieved to hear that that is not your experience. So how can we move through this kind of shame about losing him?

[A]

Yeah. I wonder if it's always been like in the back of my mind, just quietly, but never thought about it. But even when I. If I see his name, I don't think, oh my gosh, I lost him. I don't know why I even remembered it here. You know, I don't sit on it and think about it every day since I am so good at blocking things. The shame of it is just so high that it's so easy to not think about.

[B]

Leaning into our pain sometimes helps it dissipate. And so you are so adept at sort of feeling something and then moving into the next feeling and then blocking it. And so maybe let's go back to that point when you realized you lost him. And maybe there's a way we can sort of re narrativize this so that there is a level of self compassion where it's like, yeah, we lose things.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And maybe this is symbolic of something else.

[A]

It was just something bad that came out of something that was so good. Like. Like, it's so delusional. But I remember it being, like, funny to me at the time too. I thought, like, if he was in the box, then, like, he wouldn't be like, really seeing all these things. That's hilarious. So there was a plastic bag inside. And for some reason I would take him out of the box and have the plastic bag out. So it didn't look like anything important.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It was ashes in a plastic bag that I would just have, like, out. And that way he could. So I constantly took him out of the more special box that you would probably be like, oh, this is something special. So that's why I don't place blame on anybody, because he really did just look like a. Yeah, just a bag of ashes. What scares me the most is the thought that he made it back home, but someone maybe didn't recognize, like, what it was or something and had just thrown it away from, like, unpacking or.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And then the association of him with trash. I think that was the kicker for me of it being really sad. I don't think that I would be so upset if he were just chilling in Lake Como or something.

[B]

Right. But. So maybe he did make it home.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's my worst case is he made it home.

[B]

But maybe that's comforting that he did reinhabit the space with you all. And, you know, there's something so ephemeral, of course, about. But about ashes especially.

[A]

Yeah. I don't know. I can't think of it in a positive way.

[B]

Yeah. So how do you feel now, having talked a bit more about the traveling ashes and being without them now and Jack?

[A]

I feel better. It's frustrating because I can't believe I haven't thought about that for so long. There definitely is more of a lightness. But then, yeah, I know I can go right back to never thinking about it again after this, and that's probably what I'll do. And now for the toolkit. Each episode, our guests distill their expertise into practical and actionable insights. Today, Jessica shares her upend technique for removing shame from your personal grief story.

[B]

So I get asked this a lot. How do you help somebody unravel their personal grief story over time? I've come up with this technique that I call upending shame.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

We use the U P E N D to walk people through it. It this technique aims to unlock feelings that have gathered into something that just doesn't feel right. And shame is not something that we want to marinate in. The hope is that this will upend those feelings. So upend stands for understanding. Take the time to sink into the feelings that surround the experience and identify your grief as candidly as possible. P. Prepare. Write your story on a piece of paper in your phone, wherever. Prepare to share it. It could be publicly, with a friend, in a group setting, with a family member, in therapy, or just in a journal. Get ready to potentially experience additional feelings as a result of articulating it. It E. Evaluate. Now that you've challenged yourself to share your story, take some time to revel in these newly claimed feelings. Now move into thinking about how this grief has informed your choices and how it colors your days. Normalize. Attempt to integrate your grief into everyday life. Challenge yourself to be gentle with it. Grief knows no timeline. Turn your grief into self compassion. Aim to integrate it. Rather than eschewing the complex feelings. Dedicate. Commit yourself to integrating your story with your whole evolving and complex self. I've been using this technique in my writing and in my work for decades now as I've worked through my pregnancy loss and the silent stigma and shame that surround it. You can do this as often as feels comfortable.

[A]

Jessica, I want to thank you so much for joining me today on Self Conscious. Thank you.

[B]

Thank you so much for having me.

[A]

It's been wonderful.

[B]

It was so wonderful to be with you.

[A]

Jessica, I want to thank you for joining me today on self conscious. Dr. Jessica Zucker's normalize. It is available on Audible. Until then, tune in, turn on and feel better. I'm Chrissy Teigen and you've been listening to Self Conscious, an Audible Original podcast. This has been an Audible original produced by Audible, Q Code and Huntley Productions hosted by Chrissy Teigen Written and executive produced by Jimmy Jelinek, Executive producers for Q Code Shen Yan Hu and Alexa Gabrielle Ramirez, Executive producer for Huntley Productions Chrissy Teigen, executive producers for Audible Andy Beckerman and Stacey Creamer Recorded and engineered by Ben Milchev Filmed by Bridger Clements Production Coordinator Editor Brian Coulter Edited, mixed and mastered by Ben Milchev, Head of Creative Development at Audible Kate Navin, Chief Content Officer Rachel Giazza Copyright 2024 by Audible Originals, LLC Sound Recording Copyright 2025 by Audible Originals, LLC.